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Not Like the Other Moms: A Different Look at Art History and Motherhood
121 Plays4 years ago
In this week's episode, just after Mother's Day, we talk about three themes of motherhood in relation to art history. We discuss Gustave Courbet's painting, "Origin of the World," the work of artist Carmen Winant, and the "Immediate Family" photographic series by Sally Mann. We then do a recap of the Hulu TV show, "Little Fires Everywhere," and take a closer look motherhood in the new mini-series.
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Transcript
Graduation Day Reflections
00:00:31
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Bianca. And I'm Gianna. How's it going, Gianna? How do you feel? It's good. I feel good. So, for our listeners at home, as you know, our episodes drop on Tuesday, but we are actually recording on Saturday, and that means it is graduation day. Graduation day. Which means I am...
00:00:56
Speaker
at home. Which is okay. It's good. It's good. I feel good.
00:01:01
Speaker
We're gonna have just a little family shindig today, have some bubbly. I think I'm gonna start drinking that white claw at like 2 p.m. today. Right after we record this, let's break out the claw. You know, I thought about bringing one while we were recording, but I'm like, I think I need to give it like a solid month before we start drinking whilst recording. I mean, we're gonna do that tomorrow.
00:01:29
Speaker
Yeah, we are going to do that
Mother's Day Video Announcement
00:01:31
Speaker
tomorrow. So today we're recording our episode, but tomorrow we are recording a video to go along with today's episode, our theme today. So today is Gianna's graduation day. Tomorrow is Mother's Day and we're going to do a Mother's Day Imagination Express video. So that'll be up on our YouTube channel.
00:01:54
Speaker
the same day, Tuesday, that this episode drops. I know. It's our first video. We're really excited about it. There will be drinking. There will be drinking, so prepare for that. We do not disappoint. So yesterday, my very best friend, Elizabeth Green, became Dr. Elizabeth Green. She also is graduating from OSU from their vet school there.
00:02:20
Speaker
on her zoom graduation, the guest speaker was talking about how it's actually kind of nice that you get to spend graduation day with your friends and families. It's kind of interesting to think about you don't maybe get this big
00:02:33
Speaker
ceremony where you get to walk across the stage, but you don't also have to sit through a few hours of name reading and waiting. Yeah, for sure. I think it definitely has its perks, because I think you do not that people don't do graduation for themselves, but it is also very much like for your family, like your family wants to see you walk down and, you know, grab your
00:02:56
Speaker
diploma, which is amazing. But at the same time, it's like, I got to sleep in today. That's true. I treated myself. Yes. So you know, today's been great. Good. Yeah, I'm glad you're feeling good. I'm really excited for you. We're all really proud of you and proud of all the work that you've done and all the work you've made.
Pride and Accomplishments
00:03:15
Speaker
And I'm just really excited for us to keep going on this project.
00:03:20
Speaker
Oh, well, thanks. I feel good that I am somewhat certified to be now contributing to this podcast. You have the degree to match this podcast. We're very official. So the vibe today is very much business woman special. Agreed. Agreed. So I just want to make sure that we were on the same page with that.
00:03:41
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I think from now on, business women's special plus white claw, wine, cake. Yes, exactly. Perfect.
Intersectionality in Feminism
00:03:50
Speaker
You and me. We on the dream team. So this is week three. How do you think that last week's episode went?
00:03:57
Speaker
I feel like it went really well. One, I just love your thesis, and I'm so excited that we finally got to start diving into that. But the exciting part was we really started to hear from you all, and we got such insightful feedback from last week's episode. So we're going to share that today, actually, some thoughts we got.
00:04:16
Speaker
Yeah so I have a precious friend from high school and she's a woman of color and she was texting me saying, hey I have some thoughts about why Judy Chicago and other white European artists get judged for their artwork.
00:04:36
Speaker
So I asked if I could quote her on today's episode and I just wanted to read exactly what she sent me because I thought it was really insightful. She says, I think they get judged because white feminists are the gatekeepers of feminism, meaning that they are the ones who get listened to the most.
00:04:55
Speaker
So when their work isn't intersectional, they leave the voices of women of color and queer women left out. Of course, that goes into the whole thing about white feminists then trying to be the voice for women of color and queer women, and that can also be a big no-no. Here's the analogy that I often use to explain this phenomenon.
00:05:13
Speaker
White women in feminism are the men of the world. If they mention the struggles of people of color and queer women with only a few voices from those groups, they are beginning to partake in tokenism. And if they don't try to pull other women up to their podium, they are silencing those groups. Finally, if they don't mention it at all, then they are no longer intersectional feminists. I think this is the burden of white feminists.
00:05:37
Speaker
Pertaining to Judy Chicago's The Dinner Party, she says, I can see why she didn't include women of color as prevalently in the piece. Like you mentioned, some women didn't have a vulva plate, which can be argued that she's separating white women from black women. It could, however, be as simple as she just didn't know what a black vagina looked like or if she didn't feel like it was her story to tell.
Representation of Black Women in Art
00:06:00
Speaker
So thank you. Oh my gosh, my friend, I love you. And I was reading these text messages like this is so pertinent. And I just wanted to hear your thoughts, Gianna.
00:06:11
Speaker
Well, this is this is what it's all about. So thank you for sharing. We so appreciate it. There's so much to unpack here and we could spend a whole episode unpacking this wonderful comment. But what she mentioned about not wanting to speak to a black woman's experience because she hasn't, of course, experienced that herself. Judy Chicago, Judy Chicago.
00:06:34
Speaker
It could be simply the idea of she didn't know what a black vagina looked like, which is a more complex idea than we think it is. So this really made me think of the historical figure. Her name is Sarah Bartman, and I learned about her in one of my art history classes. So Sarah Bartman was a person she was put into freak shows around the 19th century and Europe. She was put into these freak shows because of her black
00:07:03
Speaker
female body and people were very fascinated with her anatomy. So the name for her and other black women that were put into these freak shows were called the hot and taut Venus. So hot and taut is now considered a very derogatory word used against the Koi people of South Africa. And Venus, of course, is referred to the Roman goddess of love and fertility, and which we talked about in our first episode.
00:07:27
Speaker
So I thought that Sarah Bartman was a really good example to use because it encapsulates the comment we just received and what we talked about in our first episode. So the fascination with Sarah Bartman's black female body even continued after her death. So her body was dissected and her remains were put on display. Her body was on display for more than half a century or a century and a half, excuse me, so even longer.
00:07:56
Speaker
So her body was put into an anthropological museum in Paris and viewers could come see her brain, her skeleton, and her genitalia, as well as a plaster cast of her own body. Wow. And it wasn't till
00:08:11
Speaker
2002, where her remains were then buried in South Africa and her body was returned to her home. Wow. So do I know if Judy had access to this specific piece of information? Of course, that's something I don't know. But it's a good historic example of women of color being literally and biologically reduced. And I understand our listeners perspective in defending that judgment and that call on Judy's behalf.
00:08:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's, I think a really complicated issue. And I don't think we have the answer to it or we'll ever have the right answer to it. But I feel so happy that my friend felt like she could come and talk to us about this because this is exactly a type of conversation that Gianna and I just want to continue to have. I think that it's so important for all of us to kind of grow on top of each other's experiences and perspectives and
00:09:06
Speaker
Like Gianna and I said, we're not always going to be right. And it's so hard to present an entire body of different experiences in talking about an object for an hour. So thank you so much. And please everyone keep sending us stuff.
00:09:21
Speaker
comments, feedback, any prompts for discussion, you can email us at artpoptalk at gmail.com. Absolutely. And really quickly, I wanted to add on to this idea of reduction, because I think it's going to be important when we evolve and we move forward in our episodes, when we're looking at our what we have to understand is that we are looking at an
00:09:45
Speaker
object, a physical object, maybe aside from performance, arguably. But then you also have the existing video photo object of the performance. Exactly. So in art, no matter what you're doing, you are reducing a person, a memory, an event, an idea, and you are encapsulating that into an object. So my point being,
00:10:09
Speaker
And just because Judy chose to use a vulva or a butterfly, how is that any more offensive than what the reality of what making art actually means? Yeah, Gianna was talking to me about this yesterday when we were kind of prepping for this episode. And Gianna literally came up to me and said, but anytime you make an art object, you're reducing something to an object, like art in itself is objectification. And I just looked at her.
00:10:35
Speaker
my mind was blown because Sometimes even I'm just like objectification like wow like it's so bad everything's bad And then I'm like wait I study objects whoops whoops I know I'm more than just a pretty brunette, huh totally
00:10:53
Speaker
got the brains too. I contribute here. Totally. Yeah, well, thank you for thinking it was. No, I just, I just started thinking about I was like, have I ever heard this from a class? Because we talk so much about people and women and women of color, all these different things being objectified in negative ways. But can you be objectified in a positive way?
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting thought in my work. I use the figure and I purposely reduce the figure and I'm conscious of that. So maybe that is just a perspective that I am used to employing within my work. But I thought it was worth noting. And I think just in the context of the controversy of the dinner party, it's like, all right,
00:11:38
Speaker
Before we get so high and mighty here, every single art object is an object.
Female Anatomy and Media Representation
00:11:45
Speaker
So let's just gain some perspective here, people. My mind is blown. I also wanted to call out this Netflix show called The Goop Lab.
00:11:55
Speaker
Regardless of how you may feel about Gwyneth Paltrow's... She is crazy. I love her. ...empire. I know there are obvious problems with this, but there's an episode, I think it's episode two, where they talk about this woman who helps other people see their vaginas. And it's fascinating. And at the end of the episode, just be prepared before you watch it, they show a ton of different vulvas. And Gwyneth Paltrow says, like, what are we going to do? Show this on TV.
00:12:25
Speaker
And sure enough, that's what they did. And I have to give a queen credit for doing that. So I stan a queen. It's really the goop lab is super fascinating. So I mean, Jenna and I really liked it.
Motherhood in Art History
00:12:38
Speaker
But yeah, and just speaking of vaginas in general, get ready because this episode
00:12:42
Speaker
talks a lot about vaginas. It does. Actually, in the goop lab, they do talk about how in that episode, maybe we should not be using the word vagina, we should be using the word vulva, because the vagina is a very specific parts internal, internal, right? So I'm gonna try my best to start using the word vulva. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Anyway, so today's episode is going to be about Mother's Day for us recording now Mother's Day is tomorrow.
00:13:09
Speaker
And we know that these kind of holidays are super sensitive to people. And there is this sense of kind of being left out. Gianna and I definitely feel that way on Father's Day. So we just wanted to acknowledge all of the sisters, mothers, grandmothers, aunts, friends, caregivers, guardians, mother figures in our lives and our societies.
00:13:35
Speaker
communities and of course pop culture who make this day feel really special for any of us but we know it can be tough and sometimes triggering the topic of motherhood so we just wanted to give you that little warning before we get going. So today we're talking about mothers and motherhood in the context of art history and then we're gonna take a little break and talk about the Hulu show Little Fires Everywhere.
00:14:02
Speaker
So here we go, Gianna, what do you think about or what comes to mind when you think about mothers or motherhood and art history? Yeah, so when taught about art history, and using that context, I immediately think of Madonna and Child, Virgin Mary, or we were even talking about within nature, Persephone and her mother Demeter,
00:14:26
Speaker
and also the all encompassing Mother Earth herself. Yeah, Gianna and I were watching the Disney movie Freaky Friday with Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan. And at the beginning, they kind of play that song happy together and then show all these like
00:14:42
Speaker
paintings and artworks and photographs of mother and children and they have that kind of classic Mary Cassatt painting that's very, very like warm and motherly and kind of a quintessential example of that natural, if you will, example of motherhood.
00:15:01
Speaker
Right? So taking a step back and now thinking of the opposite of what we think is this natural or preconceived idea of motherhood in our what do you find more interesting as like a narrative around the topic of motherhood?
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah. So whenever we were prepping for this episode, we thought about Mary Cassatt. We thought about mother nature, Madonna and child, but it seemed like there's way too much there to kind of unpack and cover over the course of an hour. So when I thought about motherhood, I immediately thought about the work of Sally Mann.
00:15:35
Speaker
So then I started thinking well, what is motherhood that encompasses a little bit more tension? Like what is motherhood that plays maybe a little bit more interesting role in terms of the body? What does that kind of toll look like on a woman's body? So when I started thinking about that I wanted to ask Gianna how she finds the concept of kind of a deconstructed body from motherhood and
00:15:59
Speaker
in comparison to your work. And it doesn't necessarily like a mother's body doesn't have to be deconstructed. But I think that process, that changing of the body can be very traumatic. Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:13
Speaker
So we will do an episode eventually where I dive into my capstone work, but to give you a little bit, you know, of a snippet of one of my sculptures, I specifically have this one figurative piece where I casted the body and I had my model get on her hands and knees. So originally this stance was rooted in an idea of submission and one that we see over and over again in the art world, specifically by Jenny and Tony.
00:16:41
Speaker
So in my capstone work, it can be visually characterized as
00:16:47
Speaker
attaching these products and medications that expose these everyday traumas to the female body. So I'm specifically talking about products that women use, right? So after casting this piece and that was all finished, I kept developing my work and it was an opportunity to start creating more of a narrative that allowed for multiple interpretations as I specifically use these pill bottles to appear as though they were coming out of her vagina
00:17:17
Speaker
and I also use hemp and hemp can be interpreted as a variety of different substances.
00:17:25
Speaker
have that allude to it coming out of her vagina or out of her anus and then again proceed to manipulate the installation and the hemp to where it's trailing behind her so I have all these products coming out from underneath the figurative sculpture so my thought was to evoke this idea of birthing these feminine products and some didn't think that it read as birthing and you know that's absolutely okay I actually enjoy
00:17:51
Speaker
having these different interpretations. But some thought that it did and that's great. So by no means do I know what it's like to carry a child or to have a child, but I do know what it is like to want to protect your reproductive health. And I know what it's like to have a body that can have the choice to carry a child if I so desire.
00:18:14
Speaker
So for me, I found this idea of destruction or trauma more interesting in relationship to birth, motherhood, or health as a whole. Because I think it's important to expose these truths and these stories. So for me, it's really this fight for visibility within the art world. And that visibility is something we're really going to dive into moving forward. Yeah. So visibility is a huge part of this next piece that I'm just so excited to talk about.
00:18:42
Speaker
So in kind of planning for today's episode, we were thinking of what's kind of the order of motherhood or what is that
00:18:51
Speaker
look like. And so in terms of these kind of phases, we started thinking about anatomy, genitalia, and sexuality, and then pregnancy and birth, and then after birth and children. So and again, those are not the only three stages that occur on the body. This is just the three themes that we were kind of going for today. Right.
00:19:16
Speaker
So these themes are also kind of echoed in Little Fires Everywhere, which we wanted to merge together and talk about at the end of the episode. So when I was trying to think of a piece that represented this beginning of motherhood, I thought of Laura Jean Dumond or Origin of the World. And you know what, why not start off talking about a little controversy? Let's do it. That's what we're all about. Let's get into it. Stir the pod a little.
00:19:46
Speaker
So, Laura Jean Dumond is an oil on canvas painting by Gustave Courbet that was painted in 1866 and it now hangs in the Musée d'Arce in Paris. What a painting. It's lovely.
00:20:01
Speaker
So simply put, this is a very detailed painting of female sex organs. A woman appears lying on a bed and the viewer gets this up close look at her anatomy. And I've seen this painting in person and I actually find it incredibly beautiful. It's also a really fun social experiment, which I highly enjoy because when you
00:20:27
Speaker
go up to the piece, nobody wants to look at it. Nobody wants to be the one looking at this piece like up close like I do every other painting when I go into a museum. So you see kind of like that one dude that's hanging out from afar with his eyes like wide open staring at this painting. And then I just like marched right up to it and was like, damn, this is so beautiful.
00:20:51
Speaker
I love it. I know it's not for everybody, but here we are. What an idea. Art's not for everybody. It was so much fun. And then I was on a tour when I went to the museum.
00:21:08
Speaker
I was being so annoying because we were asked basically at the end of the tour, okay, which painting was your favorite? And this woman said, well, I know which painting was not my favorite. I said, that was the best one. Oh my gosh, your most iconic moment yet. I must say. I mean, I was being annoying, but it was still really fun and I enjoyed it.
00:21:31
Speaker
So this piece was commissioned by a Turkish-Egyptian diplomat, and this was part of a larger collection of erotic images that this diplomat was kind of collecting. So while the reason for this piece's creation, I think rightfully raise troubling questions of
00:21:52
Speaker
voyeurism, objectification, sexism, potentially rape. I think there are kind of endless arguments to make those points.
Erotic Art and Feminist Critique
00:22:02
Speaker
And feminist art historian Linda Nachlin, maybe the mother of feminist art history, if you will, called the work pornographic, but also a little masterpiece of overt sexuality, which again, we stand a queen here on this show.
00:22:19
Speaker
And I think just to interject, I think that in the future, we will talk about sexuality more within artwork, and also talk about pornography. But there are so many artists that use pornographic images as inspiration for their female figures. And it's up to us to decipher what those images now mean, when they are put into a different context.
00:22:41
Speaker
Of course, that was not the maybe conscious intent of Courbet. But again, it's about the contemporary perspective that we can now use. Yeah, exactly. So what I'm more interested for the purposes of this episode is an interpretation of the title origin of the world. I think this can be for me interpreted differently based on what we know about collector or the model. In 2013, there was a really interesting book
00:23:07
Speaker
published, which will link to our resources about the the model who posed for this. It was kind of disputed for a while who it was. But I think I wanted to take a little bit more literal approach to the title in thinking about Courbet as a realist painter. So during the 19th century, the display of the nude body underwent a revolution whose main activists were Courbet and Manet.
00:23:34
Speaker
I love Manet. So Courbet rejected this kind of academic painting style and he was interested in eroticism and pornography maybe. I don't think you can deny that, but he says he never lies whenever he painted. So the fact that this title may be a representation of female anatomy on a
00:23:59
Speaker
potentially disturbing level. I think the title origin of the world, that's real. And I find it super fascinating. And in terms of comparing that to something like Manet's Olympia, or Desjardins Surleur, Luncheon on the Grass by Manet. I love that. Oh my god, I just I love Manet so much.
00:24:20
Speaker
I think it's really interesting how we talk about kind of Olympia in this theme of maybe reclamation, like she has the power to do what she wants with her body, even though she's undoubtedly a prostitute. So what's to say that this painting by Courbet doesn't kind of evoke a similar theme, maybe it's not issue of voyeurism, but
00:24:39
Speaker
some kind of act of reclamation like I have the power to originate the world and so I think obviously there are valid critiques of this and you're right in thinking that but I kind of feel this sense of empowerment when I look at it
00:24:56
Speaker
So to me, it's not necessarily pornographic. It's something that's real. This is something that I know as part of myself. And I think it's something to actually value. This is something that brings life into this world and has power to change the world. And there's something for me that's really exciting about that. Again, someone who's not a mother. I think even though my body has the potential to give life to this world,
00:25:23
Speaker
right it's so fascinating like I feel like almost a sense of being humbled if that's the right word oh when I look at this absolutely I mean there's no there's no way to like sugarcoat it you have a amazing power wonderful complex body that has the potential to
00:25:43
Speaker
carry a human child. And that terrifying. It's terrifying. And it's beautiful. And that's why it's so hard to encapsulate and just simply one painting or one work of art. Yeah, which I think is what we're gonna dive into next. Yeah. Do you have any last thoughts on the origin of the world? No, I we will put it on our resources page. We I mean, so you are prepared if you haven't seen it, it is very detailed. So
00:26:11
Speaker
up to you. We will put it on our Instagram, but we won't put it on the first image that we link or that we show on our page. So yeah, great painting. Definitely. It's really beautiful. I mean, I think it's just I just I love Corvee too. So sue me. I'm sorry.
Carmen Winant's Birth Photography
00:26:26
Speaker
Taking up with my lawyer. So moving on and speaking to this theme of visibility, there was an installation that I saw at the MoMA two years ago. And this exhibition is called Being New Photography. So it's my understanding that like every so year the MoMA has this new photography exhibition in which they shed light on up and coming photography artists, which is really cool. So I had no idea that this exhibition was
00:26:54
Speaker
up or that it was there when I was at the MoMA. But I came across the most wonderful installation by the artist Carmen Winnet. So this work is set up with two facing walls. So when you enter the space, you're in a very narrow hallway and you have two walls facing each other.
00:27:11
Speaker
with images of women giving birth cut out or clipped out from mostly medical books or magazines. So Carmen states, I hadn't seen many images in my life of women giving birth and it is a political act to have yourself in that way, which is part of the point. It's difficult to see that image over and over again and it fails to describe the bodily experience. So I'm interested in that kind of photography that can have all those sorts of current impacts.
00:27:40
Speaker
So her work really raises these important questions such as how do we speak to a presence that isn't there? And how do we account for something that you can't even find a picture of? So Carmen is very consciously aware of these things that we have talked about in the dinner party, thinking about identity in terms of who's being pictured and who's not being pictured. Yeah.
00:28:02
Speaker
And when we think about pregnancy and birth, it is really dependent upon these factors of our social system, class and race and ability. Yeah, I think this is super interesting because Gianna and I have an older sister who does photography. We know a lot of just people in our kind of friend group or the arts community around us who are photographers and take after birth photos. And I think this concept of
00:28:29
Speaker
pregnancy photos, after birth photos, not as fine art, but as something that's like a kept as a memory is really interesting, especially in terms of class and race. I feel like there's a certain privilege that you have to hire a photographer and there's also a weird
00:28:47
Speaker
either comfort level you have with your photographer, or I don't know, some kind of other connection that maybe allows this person to be in the room with you during that time. It's I don't know, I think there are a lot of things that you could unpack with those these like contemporary, not like I said, not fine art images of birth.
00:29:06
Speaker
It's so interesting that you bring up the after birth photos because we hadn't talked about that, actually. And I was thinking I actually took after birth photos. That's exactly what I was thinking. Right for our oldest sister. And I was in high school at the time I was a senior. Oh, my God.
00:29:22
Speaker
Wow, that was such a long time ago. So yeah, I was so honored. She asked me to take her after birth photo photos and I was like, absolutely. I was totally on board. I had like no qualms about it or it wasn't even a thought to me. And then I remember she
00:29:39
Speaker
got induced while I was in school. And so I got checked out of school and people, you know, my friends were asking me, Oh, like, what are you doing? Like, you get checked out. And I'm like, ha ha, like, see, it's like, I get the day off, like my sister's after baby. And they were like, Oh my god, like, what you're taking after birth, like, you're gonna be there, like in the room.
00:29:59
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna be there in the room. And I just, I didn't understand why everybody was so essentially like grossed out by that. And I have this wonderful photo of our nephew Jamison when he was first born. Hi baby. Hi baby. Bebe. On a scale with the nurses gloves behind him and it's in black and white and I just think I feel so
00:30:28
Speaker
incredibly honored and privileged that I was able to be there in the moment yeah for that to happen and you know now in this time I can't even imagine I know that a lot of mothers are having to give birth on their own because of coronavirus yeah but also the fact that someone like I wonder who these women are that are able to kind of hire
00:30:49
Speaker
a photographer or I don't know if there's different I don't know different views on photography in the room after birth right and with going back to Carmen's work too I think it's this other idea of okay so you are going to say that this is gross and this is disgusting and I don't want to look at it
00:31:09
Speaker
So there's no way not to look at it. It's two giant walls covered and thousands of images of women giving birth. So it's this idea of, okay, you're going to tell me to have a baby. You think that maybe this is all I'm designed to do, but then you don't want to be a part of it and you don't want to look at it.
00:31:26
Speaker
Also these images, like her work seems very intense, very, I don't want to use the word traumatic, but very involved, like very momentous. And not that after birth photos in general are not momentous, but they seem to kind of put like a sugar coated glaze on the birth experience as being a bit more stressful, which is really interesting.
00:31:53
Speaker
It is. And I think it's fair to say birth can be extremely traumatic. And especially after birth to a lot of women go through postpartum depression and there are just so many layers to birth. So I think it's important to understand that it is beautiful and wonderful and no woman should be robbed of that experience if they want that for themselves.
00:32:12
Speaker
But things can happen at the same time and it's important to remember these are medical clippings So it's forcing us to also look at birth through a purely also anatomical realistic and natural lens Yeah, you know, this is biology people
00:32:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. But I love her piece. And it was so I love stumbling upon like work like that, that you didn't know was there. Right.
Sally Mann's Controversial Photography
00:32:39
Speaker
It was a really great exhibition. And I will put the link to that on our resource page. Sweet. So the next phase, if you will, like I mentioned, I was thinking about Sally Mann and
00:32:53
Speaker
her photographic works. So Sally Mann was born in 1951 in Lexington, Virginia, where she still lives and works today. She has an M.A. in writing, which I found really interesting. And the series that we're going to talk about is from her early series, which depicts her three children and her husband. In recent years, she's also been increasingly known for these amazing landscapes of the South.
00:33:21
Speaker
So those I think Jan and I would like to talk about at another point in time because they're completely well not completely different, but
00:33:28
Speaker
have a lot more to do with kind of race and trauma and hauntology. But today we'll talk about the immediate family series. So when it first premiered in 1992, it created a lot of controversy, what do you know? And it influenced kind of an, I think a new generation of photography and embodies this individualized family, but I think it's also something that we can all connect with. So not all this scrutiny
00:33:58
Speaker
of the series was obviously favorable. The children in the photographs are almost entirely presented as nude, so the children, I think when she photographed the series they're like ages five to
00:34:14
Speaker
12 and at the point where the children reached age 12, Sally Mann actually said she was worried about photographing them because it seemed too commercialized, too kind of high fashion. So these works of children when they're younger have been argued to be overly sexualized. There were claims of kind of child pornography.
00:34:35
Speaker
And when the works were published, there was a magazine that basically censored these images of the children. So put kind of big black bars over the children's like genitalia, their eyes, some of their faces.
00:34:49
Speaker
So some people I've also kind of challenged man's role as a mother in being able to photograph these children in this way. I think some people, and again rightly so, immediately view these images as being very over sexualized.
00:35:06
Speaker
children, they're in this kind of very natural landscape, they're nude, and they're posing as if they're kind of these, maybe in reference to these Venus figures, or these like kind of Greek mythological figures that we've seen throughout our history. So critics have said it may be art, but what about the kids, which I find, again, super fascinating. Yeah.
00:35:29
Speaker
So we watched the Art21 on Sally Mann, and for those of you who are unfamiliar, Art21 is a non-profit digital media platform that is dedicated to featuring pioneering contemporary artists of our time.
00:35:41
Speaker
is a fantastic resource and will definitely be referring to often. So in this video, not only do they interview, of course, the artist herself, but they also interview her children, which is so interesting. And they do that in order to gain insight into their relationship with their mother and their experience being photographed. As Bianca stated, there's all this controversy, like, what about the children? But it's like, OK, now that they're adults, let's ask them. But to first speak about the work,
00:36:10
Speaker
As Bianca stated, man's photographs can be characterized as capturing these very intimate moments of childhood and motherhood, but her key idea is really sharing her family's reality. So of course it's moments of mother and childhood, but they're very maybe uncommon or unfamiliar as to what we normally see in the art world.
00:36:30
Speaker
Well, it's interesting because in the art 21 episode, she says none of this seemed out of the norm for me. She says I grew up as a kid walking around naked. It was normal. That's just I was a kid. I walk around naked all the time. And so for her to just simply photograph that with her family, because she's an artist didn't seem totally out of the realm for her.
00:36:55
Speaker
And you know what I I really gravitated toward that statement because her property is just absolutely gorgeous. She lives on a lot of land where she grew up her family's property and
00:37:06
Speaker
We also grew up with the privilege of having some land too, of course not this huge farm, like Sally did. But we don't live in a neighborhood, we really don't have direct neighbors, or when they do, they're just a little bit down the road. So I mean, I can remember like running around naked around the yard. Of course. You know, so I really, it's interesting, but I think maybe people that have the the ability to live in, I don't want to say like rule, but you know, areas, but
00:37:35
Speaker
I found that relatable and so I was able to at least gain insight into her perspective. So going off of this idea of reality, it's also important to note that her photographs are to some degree staged. But that's not to say to however staged that her compositions are. She is still dealing with these ideas of what being a child means.
00:38:02
Speaker
this fiercely private nature of things like bedwetting, chickenpox, or bloody noses, and what she features in some of her work. So these photographs aren't forced. And it's important to put that out. They have a very natural intensity to them, and which her children speak to. And I think it's because she's not choosing to document a subject that she is unfamiliar with, even when it comes to her family's
00:38:29
Speaker
identity or her connection to the land. Yeah, these photographs, I mean, they're just absolutely stunning. When I start looking at them, I cannot look away. Her children are beautiful children. Now that her kids are grown and they're adults, in the video they say they might have lost a mother but gained an artistic accomplice.
00:38:54
Speaker
in the sense that her ability to express her maternal love was through her photographs. So kind of like what Gianna was saying earlier about us having the ability to walk around naked as a two-year-old, I mean I think that women, mothers, parents, caregivers take photographs of their children
00:39:12
Speaker
all the time and I think parents bathe with their kids mm-hmm and that's normal it's not child pornography so what's the problem with documenting it does it become more problematic when you put these children on display even though that's what they'd be doing anyway because maybe we take all these photos maybe parents take all these photos of their kids or let their kids walk around I think
00:39:36
Speaker
And also, there's some studies that show potty training helps whenever you let your kids walk around naked. Yes, because Adrienne told us that she was potty training our nephew. Right. So maybe she's not documenting this extensively and selling it for commercial use, I guess. But I mean, I think parents do this all the time, which is really interesting. Right.
00:40:01
Speaker
It's still obviously a hot button issue today. I think it was maybe a year ago at the most I was watching some like talk show host and she brought pink on and pink was getting a lot of backlash for posting like a topless photo of her, I don't know,
00:40:21
Speaker
one year old to like two year old daughter, like really, really young child. And people were saying she's a child abuser, like people were saying very obviously crazy, just horrible things to her. And it was so sad because she was saying, okay, if you don't agree with that, that is your prerogative or whatever.
00:40:41
Speaker
but to attack my family and this was a moment that I wanted to like encapsulate and share that like joy and love for my family and it was just ruined for her and so she made the decision not to post any photos of her children anymore online.
00:40:56
Speaker
I think this is also really interesting in terms of maybe the kind of opposite. So there are some children out there who, I mean like child models, maybe they're in clothes but they get dressed up or pageants.
00:41:11
Speaker
I mean, they get dressed up, put makeup on, they are, their image is manipulated or calculated to make money. So what do we think about pageants or like little gap kids models or Gerber babies? I mean, this is so fascinating that because it's Sally's work is seen as fine art or because pink is a big pop star.
00:41:35
Speaker
it's not okay. Right. And I wanted to highlight a few weeks ago MoMA was kind of releasing these home videos and doing a series about home video footage. So I wonder if there's any naked kids running around in these home videos that people just absentmindedly took because it's their family. Right. And I think
00:41:57
Speaker
Two, Sally made a statement, not in regards to this series, but in another work that she was shown featured in the R21 video, where she was photographing these dog bones and she was saying, Oh, you know, I'll take this picture of a dog bone and then I'll give it to a gallerist and then there'll be an exhibition and all of a sudden some critic is like,
00:42:19
Speaker
Oh, like, what does this dog bone mean? And she was very critical of this kind of intense analyzation of her photographs. And she said, could you imagine like art for fun? What an idea. Right. And I think for her, I mean, like we said, she was she was very shocked when her work started a lot of this controversy, because for her, she said her children were simply there.
00:42:44
Speaker
And why not use what you have around you? Also, I think that statement in particular is really interesting in terms of a woman working in the art world or a woman trying to pursue a career while being a mother. So what does Sally Mann have at home? I don't know her entire background story. I don't know what kind of financial stability she had while she was photographing her children, but you're gonna keep women at home.
00:43:13
Speaker
and then you're gonna tell them not to photograph what's around them, let alone something that they made and came out of their bodies, is just fascinating. I was mind-blowing when she said, I photograph what I had around me.
00:43:27
Speaker
I couldn't believe it. It was crazy. And she, like Bianca said, she does have a background in writing. I highly encourage watching this video. She's just very articulate, articulate, very well spoken. And she just has this like such like a calming presence about her. Like she's got her life together. She's very just put together. But yeah, her
00:43:51
Speaker
her work is just beautiful and stunning and is filled with ambiguity and reality and just has so many layers. Right, right. So those are kind of our three highlighted works for the art history component of today's episode.
'Little Fires Everywhere' Discussion
00:44:08
Speaker
Gianna and I are going to take a little break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the Hulu TV show Little Fires Everywhere. So
00:44:17
Speaker
If you haven't seen the TV show yet or you are reading the book and you don't want any spoilers, FYI, Gianna and I are going to be giving spoilers. So, we'll talk to you guys in a second.
00:44:54
Speaker
Okay, welcome back everybody. Again, if you didn't leave and you don't want spoilers, we're going to talk about spoilers. So we watched the Hulu show, Little Fires Everywhere. Gianna and I haven't read the book, but we have
00:45:12
Speaker
done some little synopsis of the book kind of showing how it's different from the show. But today we're specifically talking about the TV show. So like we said earlier, in thinking about motherhood, we also think that in Little Fires Everywhere, we kind of have these same themes of sexuality, anatomy,
00:45:35
Speaker
pregnancy, birth, and then motherhood and children. Yeah, this show, I mean, we'll get into it. I just have so many feelings about it. And we'll dive into it. But I think that if I would have had
00:45:55
Speaker
maybe these thoughts or these preconceived notions before going into watching the show, I would have perhaps liked it a lot better. Or maybe if I had read the book, maybe I would have liked it or have gotten it a lot better. Yeah. I also think because it's not a movie and that it's a mini series, it just it took a little bit of time for me to get these major themes. Right. Because when Gianna and I first started watching the show,
00:46:21
Speaker
we didn't really understand what was going because I thought it was going to be like a murder mystery or something or like it starts with Elena Richardson played by Reese Witherspoon her house burning down and I thought it was going to be like some arson theme or whatever. Yeah and when we read a lot of
00:46:40
Speaker
movie or TV show like critic articles about it. It says it opens up kind of like a whodunit. Yeah. Yeah, like murder mystery theme. But so before we move on into talking about the show, Bianca, I just have to ask you, who is your favorite mom from pop culture or your favorite like mom in a movie? Oh, yeah, I forgot. I wanted to ask you this question too. Um, Mother Monster, of course, or Miss Gaga is actually my mother.
00:47:09
Speaker
And I want to marry her and live her forever. Of course. But like I said earlier, Gianna and I were watching Freaky Friday. I was like, Jamie Lee Curtis is a queen. I just love her.
00:47:25
Speaker
I love Freaky Friday. What a good little Mother's Day mother-daughter movie. No, Freaky Friday is such a good movie. Like honestly, all those early Lindsay Lohan movies, I just adore it and it pains me because I just wanted so much for Lindsay. I know. It's painful, but...
00:47:43
Speaker
So, what about you? Um, okay, so I had a couple. I put Amy Poehler from Mean Girls. Not a regular mom, I'm a cool mom. I'm a cool mom. And then, of course, the incomparable Catherine O'Hara from Schitt's Creek.
00:48:00
Speaker
Moira Rose. Moira Rose. Wow. What a fantastic mother. She is everything. You guys, if you have not watched Schitt's Creek, I'm gonna need you to do your homework and watch some Schitt's Creek because Dan and Eugene Levy co-wrote it. They are just
00:48:18
Speaker
So freaking cute. I just can't even describe to you how much the show is just everything. Yeah, Gianna and I last Halloween went as Alexis and David from Schitt's Creek and I just love speaking like them and I want to be them. You are a little bit Alexis. A little bit Alexis. She's a mess.
00:48:44
Speaker
But then I also put the wonderful Michelle Obama and the Becoming documentary just came out two days ago. Yeah, two days ago. So we haven't watched it yet, but that might be a good Mother's Day watch. So yeah, those are some good moms. I love it. Alright.
00:49:04
Speaker
So Little Fires is set in 1997, if you guys didn't pick up on that. That is the year I was born, just to put that in perspective. When Gianna and I were watching this show, like halfway through, I was like, well, it's set in the 90s. And Gianna was like, wait, what it is? I had no idea. And I think it's because it was just so goddamn slow in the beginning. My opinion, maybe an unpopular one, I don't know.
00:49:32
Speaker
But I just maybe I just wasn't like invested and Bianca was like, do you not see that like car phone she's talking on? And I was like, Oh my God, like my critical like visual analysis skill, I just like threw them out the window. Well, literally the first second of the first episode, it says 1997. And so from that point on, I was looking at the couches and the dinnerware and the clothes and all this stuff. So I maybe see I also think since maybe 90s, things are kind of coming back.
00:50:02
Speaker
and they're kind of trendy, then maybe that didn't really hit for you, but the car phone was like homegirl. I just chose to ignore all these things that were happening in the beginning. But needless to say, I went back and I watched a couple of the first episodes because I became more invested in the last half of the show than I was the first half.
00:50:23
Speaker
So it is set in 1997, Shaker Heights, Ohio. The leads are Kerry Washington, who plays Mia Warren. And she is a black woman, kind of this nomad artist who travels with her daughter Pearl. And then on, I don't want to say the opposite, but the other leading character is Elena Richardson, played by Reese Witherspoon, who has a
00:50:50
Speaker
has built a life essentially in Shaker Heights, Ohio. And when they meet, Kerry Washington's character has just moved and decided to kind of make them their next home, Shaker Heights. Right. So it's not that they are just like opposite people, but the writers consciously
00:51:09
Speaker
writing them into very kind of polarizing roles for the time. Yeah, right. So Mia, Kerry Washington is this artist figure. And throughout the TV show, art plays a significant part of the plot, Mia's development, her life, her relationship with her daughter,
00:51:30
Speaker
So I kind of wanted to ask Gianna as an artist and someone who just finished their BFA. What do you think about this environment that Mia has taken part of that she's created for herself as kind of traveling artists?
00:51:46
Speaker
Yeah, well I first wanted to go back and look at the flashback that they have of Mia when she's a young girl, and also just wanted to point out that the best thing about this show was the actress, who I will find her name, who plays young Kerry Washington, young Mia Warren.
00:52:06
Speaker
she iconic is perfect like I literally was like is she like did they make a robot to play like it was way too she was amazing I know even down to like her facial expression it was insane so just mad props to that talented young actress so in the show they do a flashback of Mia when she is just starting to move to New York
00:52:31
Speaker
to enter a BFA program. So our lives are very different. So it was a little hard for me to connect to. She is young, moving to a new city, doesn't really have the support of her family to, you know, start a career in the arts. And yeah, it is moving to an urban environment. Whereas for me, like, I really didn't move far from home for college, I had
00:52:56
Speaker
you know, moral support from my family to, you know, yeah, like live it up, do art. And it was also, of course, a different time. So in this flashback, we find out that Mia starts to form a very personal relationship with one of her female professors, maybe a photography professor or
00:53:18
Speaker
I can't remember exactly what medium she taught. So it starts out that we think that this relationship could just be purely mentor or kind of motherly kind of motherly. She's very accepting of me as creative outlet. She wants to kind of teach her and help her art grow and evolve.
00:53:37
Speaker
And I think that this professor sees a lot of herself in Mia also as they're both black women and she can connect to Mia trying to make artwork about her own female black experience. So they start to form this relationship where you're like, oh yeah, that's cool. And then they start going to exhibitions together and do coke. And you're like, well, that's maybe less cool. So definitely not.
00:54:01
Speaker
specific thing I can relate to. I can't say I've ever done that with a lot of my professors, but
00:54:11
Speaker
The OSU Department of Art faculty. Could you imagine hitting up Modella Art Gallery? But what I will say was when you're in a creative field and in an academic setting like that, you have to form very personal and trusting relationships with the people that are trying to help you.
00:54:32
Speaker
develop your work. So in that aspect, I did find that kind of relationship very believable and realistic, because it's hard to make art about something you don't know. And that's obviously not what most artists do. So you have to trust people with your personal story and your personal history if you want to make that work good. So in that regard, I
00:54:53
Speaker
did like that relationship. Right. So moving on to kind of maybe these three phases that we talked about. In one of the first episodes, Elena Richardson hosts this book club in her home and the book that they're discussing is The Vagina Monologues, which is a play written by Eve Ensler. Gianna and I both have been in different productions of The Vagina Monologues.
00:55:19
Speaker
So they read this book, and at first Gianna and I didn't really understand why that was the book they were talking about. We didn't really understand where this plot was going. But then as the show evolves, we see both Elena and Mia before they got pregnant, during their pregnancy, and right after their pregnancy, these kind of stages that they go in and then and those are kind of the flashback scenes when they're younger. And then
00:55:46
Speaker
we have the present day of 1997, where the two mothers and their children are both in these kind of qualms. So going back to it's the second episode where Elena is in this book club. And so her female gynecologist friend is the woman who chooses to do a reading of the vagina monologues. And I don't know why I was so annoyed by that.
00:56:14
Speaker
Yeah, it was like I get and she works at Planned Parenthood and so it's it's considering the time like 1997 so it's like okay like let's pick like the most cliche person to like want to talk about the vagina monologues it could only be a progressive female gynecologist right but I get it so vagina monologues came out in 1996 and Little Fires Everywhere was set in 1997 so this
00:56:41
Speaker
work would have only been out for a year. And going back on it, it's like, okay, that bothers me a little bit less. But in the moment, I was just like, ugh, I don't know why. I just was like, what was the point of that? I don't know. Yeah, well, that's what I was saying. I mean, we didn't really understand where this was going. But I think now looking at the whole show, the vagina monologues kind of acted as this timely device to start talking about these different concepts of motherhood, and these two very different experiences
00:57:10
Speaker
that both Mia and Elena have had. Right. So the piece that they want to talk about in their book club, like meeting
00:57:18
Speaker
is the piece I was there in the room. I'm really familiar with this piece, it's the one that I read while I was in the Vagina Monologues. And I will say this is one of the lengthier pieces, not the longest, but in the Vagina Monologues you have really really short poems or really really short monologues and then you have parts that require multiple people and then you have parts that only require
00:57:41
Speaker
one person speaking, such as I was there in the room. So this piece is dedicated to the experience of giving birth. But what Elena argues in her discussion is she found a hard time connecting to pieces like Kuchi Snorcher because she found the lack of explanation of motherhood or the lack of sharing that part of female identity
00:58:06
Speaker
I don't know if offensive is a word, but she felt it was hard for her to connect to it. Because her whole identity is being a mother. And she says, we all came out of one. So why aren't we talking more about this idea of motherhood and birth? Right. But as we learn,
00:58:22
Speaker
Elena's relationship with her children is fascinating. And at the end, given that, spoiler, her children are the ones that burn her own house down. It's, I think she wants to believe that her connection to this book is maybe all about her own experience of motherhood. But I think in this show, that's obviously really conflicting because she has this desire to not be a mother and not be a mother, particularly to Isabelle.
00:58:52
Speaker
or Izzy. And she goes to New York City she kind of meets with her ex-boyfriend and needs this escape from motherhood. Yeah, so I also wanted to point out this third
00:59:06
Speaker
major or like linking character in between Reese Witherspoon and Kerry Washington, which is BB. And so the the plot of the show progresses as Mia wants to help her co worker BB who is a Chinese woman get or regain rights
00:59:25
Speaker
to her child. So essentially, Bibi was living in poverty and she couldn't take care of her child. So she left her at a firehouse or fire station. And so the white couple that wants to adopt this baby is a friend of
00:59:42
Speaker
Elena. So it becomes this kind of clash between Elena and her friends and then Mimi siding with Bebe of who gets custody over this child. Right. And it's all around race, ethnicity, privilege, class.
01:00:00
Speaker
there are all these different conflicting themes that are are moving kind of simultaneously throughout this plot and it I don't want to say it becomes overwhelming but it's almost like I don't know what to feel because I felt like none of these characters are perfect but when Gianna and I started talking about Little Fires in relation to this episode
01:00:21
Speaker
motherhood isn't perfect and you know mothers aren't always right and they maybe do their best maybe they don't for their children but maybe these characters just don't have to be perfect and and their imperfection is a way for us to learn about all these other different issues and to have conversations about them right so like we said we did not read the book and if anyone has read the book i know that the the stories aren't
01:00:49
Speaker
exactly the same. So if you have any pertinent information from the book, please share that with us. But I did want to talk about the author of Little Fires Everywhere, Celeste Ng, because she points out in an interview that she always identified Mia and Pearl as women of color, but she didn't feel like she could talk about specifically a black woman's experience.
01:01:12
Speaker
so involved in the book because she herself is an Asian American woman and her job as a writer, as she states, is to not answer questions, it's to pose questions. But the TV show was able to accomplish something that the book couldn't because she was able to have
01:01:32
Speaker
this more enveloped project with more people and more perspectives. So it wasn't just her voice, it was these multitudes of voices. Right. And in this Atlantic article, the author says that these kind of conflicts stem from the fact that women are not meant to connect because they are constrained by their circumstances. So I thought that was really interesting how we constantly kind of
01:01:57
Speaker
think about uplifting women and and you know not pitting women against each other but this book does that intentionally in order to ask those super interesting questions. Just by that statement it's so eye-opening because now I I so much enjoy and appreciate her her work and the show so much more absolutely just without one statement because it it was so hard and almost
01:02:22
Speaker
infuriating to watch at some points because I would sympathize with Elena at this one point and then I'd be like oh my god no like Elena's bad shit crazy now I'm sympathizing with Mia right and I feel like I should want to advocate for Mia the entire time on the show because she should be the most like progressive person who is living in
01:02:46
Speaker
in this town that claims to be like liberal and eye opening, but is still as just ignorant as any other suburban town in America. Right. And I felt to at the beginning of the show, I was not supposed to like Elena because she was a rich white lady. And that's it. Like I was like, Oh, obviously Elena is like the villain of this. But after watching it, I don't think anyone's the villain. But I don't think anyone is the hero.
Storytelling and Representation in Art
01:03:11
Speaker
Exactly.
01:03:12
Speaker
which is really complicated when talking about motherhood, especially like coming up on Mother's Day, this idolization and commercialization of motherhood. It's really interesting. Well, that that's just why I found that that comment so insightful, because when the show ended, I was left with this
01:03:31
Speaker
Like, what was the point of all that? Right. But that is the point of that. And I think it's so, it's so different from what we're experiencing and other TV shows or like you said, or just any narratives like in the plot, you want it to be kind of nicely laid out for you. You want a person to love and you want a person to hate and the show does not give that to you. Right.
01:03:55
Speaker
And as Gianna and I were talking about this, this also relates back to Judy Chicago. And I think there are a lot of controversies or questions surrounding this idea of who gets the right to tell what story. And that goes back to what my friend said when talking about Judy Chicago, maybe Judy Chicago doesn't have the right to talk about women of color's experiences or queer women or any other woman that's not her.
01:04:25
Speaker
So it's really interesting to think about who gets to tell what and why and what kind of backlash you may face if you try to branch out from that. I don't know. Well, and what we talked about with the dinner party was, oh, Judy didn't put these women in there because of a lack of information, which was definitely true. But we see today, even in the case of Celeste Ng, that we have access to these different pieces of information and are more sensitive and aware of these things happening.
01:04:55
Speaker
But even though we have that information, she still felt like, again, it wasn't her place to solely write about a female Black experience. And I think that also connects to Roxanne Gay's Bad Feminist. In Bad Feminist, she says there's no point in playing the privilege game. And I think that really hits home because maybe Little Fires Everywhere isn't about analyzing privilege, but asking those really
01:05:22
Speaker
hard questions and considering things on a deeper level, not just about playing the privilege game, which is what I wanted to do when I started watching the show. I completely agree. And the privilege game, it's just exhausting to I just I don't think it solves any problems. I think it is undoubtedly important to acknowledge and having those discussions and acknowledging your privilege is necessary.
01:05:49
Speaker
But in the book, Roxane Gay says, if you are reading this book, you have privilege. And I think, yeah, it's we can go on and on about who has what and who's this. But what Celeste, the author of Little Fires is doing, I think is such a creative and accessible way.
01:06:07
Speaker
to start talking about this. I completely agree. So if you haven't seen Little Fires Everywhere, really definitely watch it. I think for the time being Hulu might be free, depending on what's happening with COVID. I know HBO is free for a little bit too. So
01:06:24
Speaker
If you don't have Hulu, maybe see if it's free. See if you can get it for a little bit and watch Little Fires. And that way you can come back and tell us what you think. Yeah, absolutely. I almost wish, like I said, I wish that I would have had this knowledge going into the
01:06:40
Speaker
the show first. Right. But I know everyone listening might have already like seen the show at this point now that we're nearing the end. But I'm curious to hear your perspective on that if you felt like going into it with this deeper analysis would have helped you appreciate it in the moment while you were watching it. I'm curious about your thoughts.
01:06:58
Speaker
Yeah, so let us know what you guys think. I think that's a wrap on episode number three. Yes, congratulations to all those graduates. And we hope that everybody had a wonderful Mother's Day. Yeah, shout out to Gianna, my amazing co host, also my best friend, Elizabeth Green. Congratulations, doctor. I love you guys so much. I'm so excited for all the grads. And again,
01:07:23
Speaker
But after you listen to this episode, you can check out our YouTube channel. We have an episode coming out today as well, our first YouTube video. It's going to be a wine and pallet special, so check that out. We are on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, anywhere you listen to your podcast, so subscribe, leave us a review, and we will talk to you on Tuesday. Bye guys!