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Breaking the Sacred Timeline with Variant Andrew James
129 Plays3 years ago
Boy of APT and variant Andrew James is back and ready to talk all things Loki and Black Widow! We discuss the retro-futurist aesthetics of the TVA and our concerns following the release of Scar Jo’s solo super heroine debut. We break the sacred timeline by continuing our discussion on the Marvel franchise post-WandaVision.
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Transcript
Introduction and Superhero Aesthetics Discussion
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Gianna. And I'm Bianca. Today we are returning to our favorite subject, superheroes. Maybe they're not always our favorite thing to talk about, but we are learning a lot about them from today's special guest, boy of APT, Andrew James.
00:00:21
Speaker
That is right. Andrew is back to talk with us about the Loki series as well as Black Widow. We have some questions for him about the aesthetics of the Loki series. Why does something that's not futuristic but not past or present
00:00:36
Speaker
have a common mid-century modern retro style to it. And if the creative team behind Loki represents some of the change we want to see after talking with him about WandaVision. And of course, Gianna and I are going to be talking all about ScarJo and the women taking back their deserved pay and what that means for art and cinema moving forward. Gianna, are we ready to art pop talk? I am so ready to art pop talk.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Bianca, I am just Ella Welling because in our show notes, you put Gianna, do you have any intro thoughts, you know, life updates, just kind of shooting the shit. And I'm truly way too excited about recording on an actual table instead of super weird dark corners of my small apartment. So that is my life update, which is super exciting. Love working at a table.
00:01:33
Speaker
We need to get some art behind you. I think a neon APTHQ sign would be so cute. I know. Bianca, I was just thinking your background is really cute. You're on your couch. And since I just moved in, I have the classic. It's not quite gray, but it's not quite brown. Right. That's kind of how mine is.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, cringy, like apartment wall kind of color. But DIY TikTok honestly has me very angsty what people are doing with contact paper instead of painting things. So kind of
00:02:08
Speaker
decor that's very renter friendly, but when we do record our videos, I was just thinking about that. It would be cute to make this a little visually pleasing for you than just me. Yeah. Well, also, if you weren't picking up on this, you can watch this interview on our YouTube channel if you're not doing that already. So, you know, you can look at Gianna's bare walls. Sorry. You're the star. You're the decor of this screen right here.
00:02:39
Speaker
Sure. Yeah.
Yayoi Kusama's Pumpkin Incident
00:02:41
Speaker
Yeah. Well, this week, I feel like we had a lot of kind of
00:02:46
Speaker
art and pop erotica news. Lizzo's rumors featuring Cardi B came out and the music video truly if Cardi and Lizzo aren't in the live action Hercules now, like I just I feel like this was really their audition tape. And then also, there was a lot of talk about the Pornhub, Louvre Met, Uffizi situation. So Pornhub basically
00:03:14
Speaker
upload or like, like put this erotic art tour on Pornhub site using all of these works from these major museums. And then actually, I think it was like two or three days ago, Pornhub took them down after kind of flack they were getting from the museum world over image rights and things like that. But it was so interesting. I just felt like, you know, all of art history was a little, you know, saucy this week.
00:03:43
Speaker
We have a little saucy art history moment. Oh, yeah. And we've talked about erotic pottery before, and its usage, and when we talk about purposeful objectification in the art world, that episode went way back in the day.
00:03:58
Speaker
If you want to find all the little Easter eggs in the Rumors music video, definitely we cannot link that episode that we talked about art and eroticism because that was a fun one. Are we ready to get into some art news? I am really excited for this art news story. Let's get into it. All right. So for today's art news,
00:04:29
Speaker
We are talking about Yayoi Kusama's yellow pumpkin which was washed away in a typhoon just last week. The pumpkin has become a symbol of Naishima's pride. It's also an island in Japan's Cido inland sea. Naishima happens to be known for also its art museums and the pumpkin sits at the tip of this abandoned pier.
00:04:52
Speaker
since installed in 1994 and contributes to tourism in the area. So the pumpkin has since been retrieved, but it is badly damaged and will likely have to be either repaired or replaced. There are measures in place to protect the pumpkin from storms. According to a couple articles that I found and the corporation that actually owns the pumpkin, the company says that anytime there is a hurricane threat,
00:05:20
Speaker
staff measures are taken and I guess they're supposed to be dispatched in the area, but this time the storm was just really bad.
00:05:27
Speaker
it took an unexpected turn for the worst and the staff was unable to arrive to the scene in time. So that's why the pumpkin was washed ashore. So why is the pumpkin part of her iconography, you might be asking. Well, her family actually cultivated plant seeds for a living, contributing to her fascination with the natural world and plant life. So these vegetable and floral life kind of pieces of iconography that you see
00:05:54
Speaker
make the steady appearance without her work, yet the pumpkin stands out and sets itself apart in particular. She describes them as forms of self-portraiture and admires them for their quote, hardness and everyday quality, as well as for their unique and pleasing physical attributes. So Bianca, I'm curious, I do have a question for you. As the pumpkin was washed ashore just recently, and it took the internet by storm,
00:06:20
Speaker
Do you feel like this event has in some way changed how we feel about this sculpture, this moment in time, its placement, even how it's going to be replaced either completely or even just repaired? I'm not sure that we even know yet.
00:06:35
Speaker
Right. So I feel like Yayoi Kusama's pumpkin on its own is replicated in her work, obviously, fairly often, like we see different renditions of the pumpkin. So I feel like, and I don't know that this is like a right
00:06:56
Speaker
way to equate the two, but you see kind of Jeff Koon's balloon dog, right? And not that they're the same in any way, but I feel like the imagery of the piece will always kind of stand as a symbol of that artist's work. And I think oftentimes when we see Kusama kind of photographed, she's with the pumpkin or in this kind of sea of color and dots that are representative of her work.
00:07:25
Speaker
So I feel like on a grand scale, the pumpkin itself will kind of continue to live on, right? But in terms of like locale and geography and the particular kind of symbolism that you were talking about that had direct ties to its place and the museum is associated with in this kind of like
00:07:48
Speaker
alcove of land before it hits sea. I feel like it's a certain thing that will be missing from its community, right? And so whenever we were watching,
Ephemeral Art and NFTs
00:08:02
Speaker
I mean, I saw this on like TikTok for the first time and I was looking at this pumpkin just like bouncing around in the ocean waves and it was kind of like twirling and moving this way and that way.
00:08:16
Speaker
And when I saw it, I knew it was her pumpkin. Obviously, it's clearly recognizable as one of her works. But the way that it was just dancing around in the water, the first thing that really came to my mind was, is this a performance piece? Because it just comes up on your TikTok feed, and when you're watching something,
00:08:39
Speaker
the first time like I wasn't necessarily digesting what was actually happening you know climate wise and weather wise and how this like I didn't know that this had been kind of a public piece of art that my first experience of it was it rolling around in the water so I think what's really interesting about my learning of this art news I don't know not that it informs the rest of of her work or her pumpkins or anything like that but
00:09:08
Speaker
I just think that it recalled for me this idea of what is the piece of art when it comes to performance work. So is the piece of art the person doing the piece of art in the moment and the art is everyone else watching it at the same time? Or is the art the existing video of it that we have right now or the existing photograph of it or with earth art? You know, we talk about that a lot like, do I have a photograph of earth art or is that
00:09:38
Speaker
Is the photograph a piece of art? And then I was thinking about now with the emergence of NFTs, I'm wondering just if museums or someone will purchase an NFT of the pumpkin rolling around in the water. Like, is that something because I experienced it as something different than just a pumpkin on its own? I wonder if that's going to be an NFT. Don't buy it. Like, I feel like maybe I should buy it.
00:10:07
Speaker
If it is available for purchase, I have no idea. It's funny because again, we don't know yet, or at least when I was doing the research in preparation for this episode, it was kind of unclear if it was past the point of saving. So what will happen to that though? Will they just scrap it or will they make an entire new one? Maybe would the remnants possibly go on display?
00:10:31
Speaker
in one of the museums associated in that area. But it is interesting because we do have that footage for just our own kind of news information, but could that, could she, even if she wanted to turn that into something and then have that be the site-specific video in that location? I mean, I guess- Well, and it's also interesting because I don't know, I'm sure the news sources on the TikToks and things like that,
00:11:01
Speaker
have been able to cite the person whose original video it was, but clearly it was not my, you know what I mean? I'm experiencing something that wasn't even, TikTok didn't produce this video. It was just someone took a video and then it went viral and now I'm seeing it across my TikTok feed.
00:11:16
Speaker
where the origins of that video in itself are also really interesting and how just in terms of like if the artist or anyone will pick up on that or if the museum will use like photos that they took of the pumpkin in the water and maybe it will be entirely replaced but we'll have these like lasting visuals of this experience where the pumpkin was removed. And it's also interesting to think about public sculpture
00:11:44
Speaker
in itself, it's meant to exist outside. It weathers storms and it takes on the climate and different circumstances that arise. In a sense, public sculpture can never be permanent, I guess, just because the elements will naturally wear on it or maintenance will need to be done on things. So it's never the original piece that existed.
00:12:11
Speaker
So, it's interesting about putting up a replica or a new version of the pumpkin, I don't think takes away from the loss of the original because the original has been slowly disintegrating with just wearing elements in general, which is also interesting. Yeah.
00:12:32
Speaker
And, I mean, as we just talked about, but the location of the extreme weathering is happening to that piece more and more than it just would be if it was farther inland. So, you know, you kind of knew what you're getting into when you placed there as well. I think the ephemeral quality though is interesting when you think about how the pumpkin is a motif for her own body.
00:12:52
Speaker
if we want to get really crazy and like really deep into it. But yeah, just a little bit of interesting art news that is perhaps a little less depressing than our news story from last week. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, a little something to hopefully brighten your day. So Gianna, are we ready to take a little break? And then whenever we come back, we will be joined by boy of APT, Andrew James.
00:13:51
Speaker
All right, and we're back with boy of APT, Andrew James. How are you, Andrew? And what have you been up to since last time we saw you?
Character Evolution in Loki
00:14:02
Speaker
Hello, it's good to see you. I'm doing well. Oh, you know, just the same old as you lovely ladies are exploring the deep depths of art and pop culture. I have been exploring the depths of my superhero fandoms and buying copious amounts of action figures for a hundred plus dollars for no reason at all. And
00:14:28
Speaker
With that being said, I'm very excited and hopefully the art pop tarts. Yeah, they can see the display. I will pride myself in a nice, fantastic four display for everybody to see.
00:14:41
Speaker
Well, as I know that you all remember from the first time you all met Andrew, we had him on to discuss WandaVision, the series that was on Disney+. And these series are becoming a new part of the Marvel franchise on these streaming platforms. Although we did have some spin-off shows before, such as Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., if anyone remembers that one. But WandaVision,
00:15:08
Speaker
Very clever way of getting to know these characters outside of our little main Avenger squad, perhaps. Also including our complex villains, which is very fun. So if you haven't listened to our WandaVision episode, I would definitely take a listen because when we get into the Black Widow of it all, our conversation on the portrayal of our female heroines will be particularly useful. So should we get into Loki first? How do we feel?
00:15:37
Speaker
I'm very excited to talk about Loki, so Loki first sounds good. Okay, so getting into Loki, I have to admit that I was pleasantly surprised. This one was your favorite, is that correct? I really, really liked Loki.
00:15:57
Speaker
And I feel bad because I like to want to mention a lot, but something about I don't know, like, the intro, the graphics and the music, like, I don't know, it's just like, so why don't you walk us through what this series of Loki kind of meant to the fan base? And then why was it so important to have this? Not that he was a minor character in any way, but like, what did Loki mean as this kind of
00:16:26
Speaker
anti hero, you know, chaotic kind of villain source like what is the point of having him be turned into this
00:16:35
Speaker
really redeemable character who's even worthy of a whole series. Yeah, yeah, that's, there's a lot to run with here. So what's interesting with Loki, and I think one thing that we really have to distinguish with a character like Loki, is he is a very formidable foe for superheroes. So Loki seems to appear and
00:16:59
Speaker
have very influential presence when he is integrated into stories. So I think that's really important, especially for people who were comic fans. When Loki was introduced, we wanted to most definitely see him be a presence that
00:17:17
Speaker
was going to be influential. And I think that's something that the MCU, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, was really looking to do. So when they originally brought in Tom Hiddleston adapting the Loki character, there wasn't really going to be that much use for him except for in the main plot line. So he's a nemesis to Thor, kind of an archenemy who reappears as somebody who's challenging Thor. And then, of course, he is the catalyst to why the Avengers are formed.
00:17:45
Speaker
So the Avengers comic, the original comic is where Loki is looking to take over Earth and they were trying to integrate that in some sort of
00:17:54
Speaker
movie adaptation so they did it for the Avengers film and they did it really well but the thing that I think really was the I guess icing on the cake with Loki is that there's a complexity to the character where people are always interested in you know the alibi or the psychology behind
00:18:17
Speaker
the motive and with Loki there always is that. So that really I think feeds into the lore of why people liked him as a villain. He wasn't just a stock villain or a doppelganger villain because he's not a doppelganger to Thor and his slightest. He's kind of the polar opposite. He's not
00:18:33
Speaker
like strong or sort of the masculine character chair. He's more of this cerebral and conniving and very mythological sort of villain. And that was something where he's always been a fan favorite for comic book readers, to people who watched him in cartoon shows, to when he was adapted to the film in live action movies. And then of course there was the sort of
00:19:02
Speaker
fandom that kind of started getting engrossed with Loki when he was at the San Diego Comic Con in 2013, they told him to go out in costume and people went nuts because they were like, oh my gosh, he's going to be back. He's going to reappear in Thor the Dark World. They didn't think Loki was going to be back. They thought Loki story was ending. But then they realized how much fan power there was with Loki. And there's this real momentum with, you know, an anti-hero potentially
00:19:32
Speaker
or a villain turned antihero and a lot of lore that can come from that. And I think with Loki, he was really the catalyst or the start to really developing depth to those villains or really integrating them to have certain complexities as well, which obviously has led us to the show, which is a lot of fun. I like what you said about just it's interesting what you mentioned about masculinity. And I know we're going to get into that with
00:20:00
Speaker
you know, kind of the gender dynamics of Black Widow, but how Loki, now that you specifically pointed it out, he is not this like big, strong, like superheroes, like throwing punches all the time, which is actually really interesting to think about this, this
00:20:20
Speaker
I guess a softer kind of lead for a super film in a male specific role. But you know, Loki is also interesting in terms of like his sexual identity that they kind of brought forth in the show and Loki as a you know, Norse
00:20:39
Speaker
mythological character in itself, how he kind of breaks these stereotypical kind of gender dynamics as a human. And then on top of that with the series, how you have all these different variants, which I think plays into that Norse mythology of Loki taking on those kind of different roles. But that is really interesting how that really came through in the series specifically. But leading up to that, of course, we didn't have any of that
00:21:09
Speaker
explicitly said throughout the Avengers or Thor's backgrounds, but he is so much softer and and to be to have him evolve in this way is really interesting that you
00:21:23
Speaker
point that out. Definitely. I think the depth and the background or the real intricacies that people were really starting to hone in on, at least at face value with the films, has always kind of been there. The fans really have gravitated towards a certain poise or demeanor that Loki brings to each of the tones and
00:21:46
Speaker
different contexts in the films, but to really now get the intricacies of, Oh, we're seeing some of his humanity or what really makes up the character in full was something I think a lot of people have been looking forward to. I really love that. And I love that you really talked about the fandom and the obsession, not only that evolved with Loki and how like the franchise responded to that and was like, Oh, we got to roll with that.
00:22:12
Speaker
But also just the obsession that we have with Tom Hiddleston as well. I'd also a little bit later probably focus that on Florence Pugh, that kind of obsession that they have. So I think like Marvel is also just really responding to
00:22:28
Speaker
not only the obsession that we have with the characters, but also the actors that are playing those people. As Bianca and I mentioned in our opener, it's no surprise that we want to talk about the aesthetics in the series. The Marvel series also, I think, needs something to separate them from the movies a bit. And you know, that's just maybe one woman's opinion, because we are honing in on these characters very closely.
00:22:52
Speaker
And I think the aesthetics are just a part of helping and separating those types of storytelling. But WandaVision and Loki, I think, are dealing with time in a way that shows it in different spaces, functioning in fairly similar ways. And WandaVision, the role of a domestic woman,
00:23:14
Speaker
was shown to us through pop culture familiarity. And in Loki, the TVA setting uses familiar earthly aesthetics from a moment or point in time. So we can visually differentiate that the setting is not of our current reality. So what I want to talk about is when it comes to making a setting like this, especially one that deals with futurism,
00:23:38
Speaker
why is the space always like this old school, old technology, old like retro mid-century modern space? So some examples that Bianca and I were talking about earlier after we were watching Loki was the bad place in the show, The Good Place or the Thames Commission in the Umbrella Academy, which is that time traveling organization. Even something as- That's a good connection. I didn't even make that one. Yeah.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, did you did you think of anything when you were going through today's episode like a show or movie with that aesthetic? Actually, some video games. And I think it really that's interesting. Yeah. So, I mean, I think any people who are video game enthusiasts might be familiar with the game Fallout, which takes a lot of the sort of mid century futurism and takes this sort of nostalgic tone to what it would look like to have
00:24:37
Speaker
anything from a dystopian future to just modern futures. And I think really when we talk about, you know, the mid-century modern or even the sci-fi that was starting to get established, you really have to take it from like the Jules Verne, Isaac Asimov, like all these sort of stories that were coming out, post-war literature that was making some of these utopia sort of settings and dynamics and contexts. And they also,
00:25:07
Speaker
at the same time were very, very just character to create like these really pristine and elaborate settings. So I always think about like all the different Star Trek sets. That sort of imagery has become such a nostalgic form or such a
00:25:24
Speaker
such a pretty prominent and recognizable form. So with the TVA, of course, the Time Variance Authority, there's of course the bureaucratic DMV sort of style imagery and format that we're getting, but at the same time, we're taking it with like, I thought a lot of it looked like 2001 Space Odyssey. Some of the settings.
00:25:52
Speaker
So, you know, you're taking like these poles from Kubrick and you're taking like these different poles, even on metropolis, like the German expressionism in film, like there's certain things like that, where you're grabbing
00:26:08
Speaker
different tones and items and iconography that you can recognize real quick. You can hone in on and you can just start to displace or suspend your disbelief in because you've seen these things before. I think that's something where especially the people they hired for the production team and the set for Loki, they were really trying to do. It was very, very intentional. I mean, there's probably more to be said on that.
00:26:33
Speaker
Well, I know you have some more thoughts specifically too. But when we watched the that assembled documentary, and I really loved that they referenced film history and kind of television history in the way you were referencing kind of WandaVision and how like clearly there are these like
00:26:55
Speaker
pop and cinematic examples that that WandaVision was pulling from and it's less perhaps less subtle in the Loki series but in that documentary they referenced shows that featured like this lovable anti-hero and this kind of like lead villain that Loki will surely fall in line into that lineage of but they reference the Sopranos
00:27:22
Speaker
And this kind of like, dark set of the Sopranos and how you know, you you you end up rooting for this lead in a way immersed in Jersey. And then and then what I what I really had been thinking about the whole time was Mad Men, obviously, and they did reference Don Draper, which I love. And yeah, I just I appreciated that they it felt kind of like they were pulling from similar circumstances of Wanda vision.
00:27:50
Speaker
But but yeah, it was it was more behind the scenes this time, even though it was kind of like, right in front of us through our viewing experience. But I know you have like some more examples that I thought were interesting as well. Well, there are there are a ton that I can think of. And one of the things I'm talking about just the kind of cinematic scope of things and what you tend to gravitate towards. I really like that you talked about the familiarity of it all, because I want to get into that a little deeper.
00:28:17
Speaker
But one of the things that I was getting into in my own head was for some reason I kept thinking about Dr. Strangelove. And I think when they show the timeline and how things are breaking away, it reminds me of when they're in the room and they're looking at the map of the world and this almost world domination aspect to it. But that was a form of nostalgia with retrofuturism that I was picking up on. But when it comes to this familiarity
00:28:46
Speaker
I think Andrew, that was a key point and that we get excited about it and we kind of know a little bit of what we're getting into, but there are little surprises on how they're going to run with it.
00:28:56
Speaker
And it kind of, I think with time travel, perhaps, I mean, I just find time travel plotlines really confusing. And I think retrofuturism maybe helps lessen that confusion for me personally. But I think when I think of the aesthetics of particularly even in the comic books, and they even reference this a little bit in Loki,
00:29:18
Speaker
with the the timekeepers and how they went back to the old graphics like that was very like retro futurism and I feel like the graphics in the comic books are in itself retro futurism I think that's a key kind of classic part in those graphics but
00:29:34
Speaker
I don't know, I'm kind of interested to see if you feel like maybe are we getting tired of these aesthetics or are they really truly important to the history of these villains and these heroes that we can't defer from it.
00:29:49
Speaker
I think it's probably the latter. I think it's either revitalizing or even getting the fans more excited for what's to come. Especially, I think we really saw this, most likely the first instance of it was Guardians of the Galaxy.
00:30:10
Speaker
when we had these really bright colors, very like neon style sort of items going around. And it really adapted a lot of the Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby colors that are in the comics. And then, of course, this led into Dr. Strange, where we needed something that was going to be over the top with how
00:30:35
Speaker
the imagery and how you're going to bring to life a character like Doctor Strange that has such a psychedelic and really just sort of wild and explorative and imaginative frontier when it comes to the images you've seen in comic panels. How are you going to adapt that to film? So with something like the TVA, as much as it might have been of course a used format, you know, we have the
00:31:04
Speaker
retrofuturism and we have a very bureaucratic order to things and we're seeing that happen.
00:31:10
Speaker
I think what's interesting though is what's going to be the new twist or the new pull or how are we going to ground it in some sort of realism that adapts to the world building that these film franchises are making. So I think when they did the Loki series and you're seeing the TVA finally established or being displayed, anything from the infomercials that are explaining the time keepers
00:31:37
Speaker
to Bianca's favorite Miss minutes. She's a little bit shady. She knows a little bitch. And I'm just like, I'm so here for it. I want to show about Miss minutes. I love this minute. What is Miss minutes? Give me the lore of Miss. She like she looks like
00:32:00
Speaker
What is the Mark and York thing? I forget what it's called. No, I saw a really good example to Miss Minutes. And it was the DNA strand in Jurassic Park. And I thought that was just really good. Yeah, that is excellent. That would be that spot on. But yeah, somebody like Miss Minutes. Again, we're seeing those parallels. But we're seeing how they're read adapted and
00:32:27
Speaker
they're integrated to establish a certain world building or the realism of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And that's what I think the TVA really blew people away with how much it was able to do that as compared to some of the other settings. I mean, we've seen Asgard, and that was one of the first big reveals to a new world or a new setting and environment.
00:32:54
Speaker
the MCU and then Wakanda of course was phenomenal and we're seeing again something that's very very different and we're seeing all these different ones and they all have a certain culture, mores and sociological order. Let's do something that's so generic and so face value that we see every day but let's push it back into what we have seen
00:33:18
Speaker
done plenty of times before, but now we're gonna do it MCU style and have Owen Wilson come out as Mobius and shake it all up, as well as Judge Renslayer and B-15. So speaking of that and thinking about the expansion, if that's even possible, like how can this thing get any bigger? The MCU and where Marvel goes from here,
00:33:48
Speaker
I know you were very excited. One of your favorite characters. I should have brought my action figure. Is Kang the Conqueror. And so I know you've been very excited to finally see the emergence of Kang in the MCU.
00:34:06
Speaker
So can you talk a little bit about, going back to that first question, why was it pertinent that He Who Remains was featured in the Loki series of all things? I feel like that's such a big point of opening for our visuals coming forth.
00:34:24
Speaker
So so why was he put in the Loki series, do you think and then on top of that, speaking about the cast and what we talked about with WandaVision, you know, we want a more diverse cast from Marvel and the MCU. But how does the casting of Jonathan majors work with Kang? And how do you envision him moving forward?
Kang the Conqueror's Impact on MCU
00:34:45
Speaker
Because Kang, as you've explained to me, takes these different forms, similar to
00:34:49
Speaker
I think maybe if I'm understanding right, what we saw with Loki. Loki has all these different variants. That's actually a really interesting parallel. And then how the casting of Jonathan Majors will work moving forward with Kang because we see he who remains and then at the end we see what I envision as that more traditional figure of Kang.
00:35:12
Speaker
Well, I really just I want to note that the parallel of, you know, seeing so many different Loki variants or Loki is a shape shifter to that's one of his abilities. So he's able to come and very variations of forms and people. And I think maybe, you know, that might be a very large parallel to why it was so applicable.
00:35:34
Speaker
to have Kang established in a Loki story as well because Kang as well is very known for coming in variations of themselves and in various forms and various characters. They can be
00:35:52
Speaker
what is known as Nathaniel Richards, who is a descendant of Reed Richards, Mr. Fantastic, from the Fantastic Four to, I think it's Ramutut, which is the original version of Kang, which was a Egyptian royalty, I should say. And then, of course, more of the modern adaptations of Kang. He was Iron Lad in The Young Avengers.
00:36:17
Speaker
I guess when you think about Kang, it's just interesting because Marvel really has only established Kang, you know, the Marvel Comics and the producers writers and so on, they really have only established Kang. And
00:36:33
Speaker
some ambiguity and somewhat of a mystery. So when you see Kang, you really typically see one essential form, which is a purple and green outfit. He has a blue face and he wears this purple helmet. However, when we talk about the he who remains character, I think it's important to note that he who remains is the original person who's behind the TVA in the comics.
00:37:02
Speaker
So he who remains is the one who's been around for all of time and created the time variance authority so that there could be established order in the space-time continuum. So in adapting this to some sort of film portrayal or
00:37:20
Speaker
TV portrayal, they took he who remains that character and kind of molded it with one of the Kang variant characters, which is Immortus. And Immortus is seen in the Avengers comics as one of the Kang characters or one of the Kang variants.
00:37:38
Speaker
So a version of Kang that we see that is a little bit more benevolent, a little bit more kind, and not as much of a force to be reckoned with as much as somebody who has some deep insight. So they took this Immortus character that has like this nice purple and green cloak and they combined it with the He Who Remains character.
00:37:58
Speaker
And it was really a pretty important way to establish a Kang reveal without necessarily giving away the havoc that will be coming soon. Because Kang is really somebody who really screws up a lot of the
00:38:18
Speaker
I guess the sanctity and the order and the establishment of all this world building, actually, as we're saying. So it's a lot. That was a lot. That was a lot. I feel like I retained some of that. I have a lot of questions I could ask you. I do have a question before we kind of wrap up for Loki is,
00:38:43
Speaker
Like, I feel like I keep seeing the haunting question, which is what is all that connection to Dr. Strange? Does Kang, I mean, he's going to have a connection to Dr. Strange, right?
00:38:55
Speaker
yeah so it's it's interesting too because all right so let let's just kind of break this down to say kang will be the next big bad villain in the mcu that is established that's what we have known and kang basically the whole idea is that kang the conqueror he conquers timelines and conquers various realities of universes so kang for the mcu what i'm curious now the
00:39:22
Speaker
The multiverse has been unleashed. So the sacred timeline was there in order to stop the multiverse war. It was all like this and then it goes like this for people who are listening to the audio. I spread my hands and I put my hands together. So it's one sacred timeline, but now it's my hands all spread apart. So it's unleashed. And what this means is
00:39:50
Speaker
What this probably means is there's going to be variations of the stories we have heard. So Marvel is toying with this with their next series, What If. So we're gonna see Captain Carter, Captain Peggy Carter rather than Captain America. We're gonna see King T'Challa, the Black Panther character as Star-Lord. He's actually the one who's absorbed by the Ravagers. So all these different stories have taken place
00:40:16
Speaker
in variations of universes. What happens then, though, is that these universes, once they have recognition of each other, are going to want to fight to have the rightful place as the sacred universe, or like the one that runs the timeline and runs all the space-time continuum. Doctor Strange will be coming out with a film. That film comes out in March, and that's the multiverse of madness.
00:40:42
Speaker
So now that the space-time continuum in the multiverse is unleashed, Dr. Strange, who has kind of been the one who's protecting our reality, which is Earth-616, that's the main universe, Dr. Strange is going to have to deal with a lot. There's probably going to be variations of possibly himself.
00:41:05
Speaker
different Kang appearances, maybe even different Spider-Man appearances, hopefully. But all these different characters will possibly have variants that might be introduced. So it makes us really excited about all the possibilities of, oh, the Fox franchise of X-Men that was there, that could actually now be canon within the Marvel Studios Disney owned stories of the, you know, the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
00:41:35
Speaker
as well as the Sony-owned films of Spider-Man with Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield, those stories might actually be able to be established as variants of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. So all these universes will now have to kind of fight to be the one that remains.
00:41:54
Speaker
Well, I have to say that if there's anything that I actually do like about this is that was always like in the beginning of like the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man days. And then when they started switching shit up, I fundamentally was like, I do not understand how we just have this Andrew Garfield movie. And now they're bringing in this little boy that everybody is obsessed with to like play the new Spider-Man. Like I just didn't understand. I was like, not enough time has passed.
00:42:23
Speaker
for all these new Spiderman movies to be coming to becoming out and then the whole x-men thing that you brought up too. So if there is actually anything that I like about that, that is starting to like connect the dots for me being an outsider of this like multi universe.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah, so it cleans it up. But what that means is like, all right, that Tobey Maguire movie doesn't mean anything in the MCU. But now, now that Kang opened up the multiverse, that Tobey Maguire Spider-Man will probably be canon as
00:42:54
Speaker
a continuation or one of the variations of the Spider-Man story. And we already know, at least, that that is somewhat true because we already know that Alfred Molina, who is the actor for Dr. Octopus, and Jamie Fox, who's the actor for Electro in the Andrew Garfield Amazing Spider-Man film, are both reported to be in Spider-Man No Way Home.
00:43:20
Speaker
So we already know that in some way in some form, this multiverse is kind of getting cracked into. Well, we have we have to get into Black Widow. I think that this is like kind of an interesting point to end our Loki discussion on just in terms of
00:43:37
Speaker
Yes, this is interesting for like canonical reasons how all of these things are merging together. But I think it's also interesting what you said about studios and image rights and character rights and things like that, which we'll get into with the lawsuit a little bit in terms of Black Widow. But I think that's also, you know, thinking about the arts and, you know, kind of how this relates to the museum world.
00:43:59
Speaker
in particular image rights and thinking about how all of those things connect and who's allowed to use what, even though it's all, you know, basically part of the same thing. We all experience it as part of our world, but there's this other kind of like back end issue that happens in the kind of like business and administrative part of creating these various universes.
00:44:24
Speaker
Um, is it, if it's okay, we can take a little break and then whenever we come back, we can talk about black widow. Okay.
00:45:00
Speaker
All right, everybody. We are back and ready to discuss Black Widow.
Black Widow's Narrative and Context
00:45:08
Speaker
Is everybody else okay? I am that last drunk. I have a lot of thoughts.
00:45:17
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Well, first off, I think it's safe to say that the bisexuals didn't even have a chance with the bi-wife energy coming from our girls, Florence and Rachel, who is single-handedly responsible for awaking all of our sexuality in the late 90s, thanks to the mummy.
00:45:36
Speaker
Andrew just watched The Mummy for the first time ever. I didn't even know Rachel Wise. He had no clue and we're watching it and he's like, Rachel Wise? I was like, no, I know. She's my lobster. Also featured in A24's film, The Lobster, which is excellent.
00:45:58
Speaker
Well, I think Bianca and I are very, very angsty to get into Black Widow. I was a little bit late to the Black Widow game. I just saw the movie on Thursday. We talked about a little bit in our last episode. I didn't want to buy it on Disney Plus because I wanted our girl to get her mayonnaise. But I, you know, wanted to be strategic about when I
00:46:22
Speaker
went to the movie theater, blah, blah, blah. It was great. Nobody was in the theater. A little side note, though, I could not remember what the last movie I saw in a theater was. So I started looking up movies that came out in 2019 ish that I remembered seeing. And the only ones I could think of were The Joker and actually Avengers Endgame. And then also, unfortunately, The Second Zombieland. I remember I think that might have been the actual last one I went to go see.
00:46:54
Speaker
All right. Well, I want to talk about our main archetype when it comes to our heroine figures, which is for me at least I thought predominantly family. I went to Preferis and we have talked about this before. We see plot lines with our hero figures where family does tie into their plot and does have a strong presence.
00:47:16
Speaker
But those lines, I think, sometimes do get entangled with romance, maybe more. This got me thinking about some superheroes' backstories, which is part of that formula that makes a hero a hero. So with these backgrounds in mind, we still critique the experience of female heroines so much that we are very aware when they are put into domestic spaces.
00:47:41
Speaker
which is an aspect of this film. And when they are also sexualized, romanticized, so on and so forth, which Black Widow has been scrutinized for in the past for her portrayal and the filmmakers, I know we're very wary of doing this in this movie, because everybody had such a spotlight on it, such high hopes for it. And we've just been anticipating this movie for such a long time. So my question for Andrew is, do you feel that the,
00:48:10
Speaker
family aspect in this film is simply a tool to tie in the plot line of Black Widow needing to come back to save the Avengers or, you know, get the band back together. And how is her backstory maybe told in the comics? And then could this be a case of kind of like we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't because of how closely we've just been like scrutinizing the portrayal of Black Widow? Yeah.
00:48:40
Speaker
I mean, all really good points to press and thoughts to kind of bring up. And I think really when you think about Black Widow and you're trying to adapt the story for not only Black Widow, but for Scarlett Johansson after so many years of work with Marvel,
00:49:03
Speaker
It's just very interesting. I went into this movie and I was very excited because it's the first Marvel movie to be out in theaters, of course, since, you know, amidst the pandemic. And with all that being said, it was very interesting to me within the timing of what they were doing with the Black Widow story and where they're trying to pick up the Black Widow story, within the mass of
00:49:33
Speaker
just character development and story that has taken place with Natasha Romanoff as also she's dead. Which is really, I think, very important for us to articulate here.
00:49:51
Speaker
at least from what we know within the MCU stories and the films as we're seeing them throughout this timeline, her story is over after Endgame and we're going back now and we're revisiting her story
00:50:10
Speaker
right after what are the events of Civil War, which happened 2015. So with all of this taking place, I was really pretty interested in, you know, how are we going to develop a story or a film of her and her
00:50:29
Speaker
backstory her situation and everything that really embodies the black widow character and we're doing it kind of right after a real large point of tension with the mcu superheroes and then also integrating new characters like not really even revisiting some of the older characters or having a cameo of like clint barton or jeremy renner's uh hawkeye you know so that that's things where i was just kind of like really
00:50:59
Speaker
intrigued. So with them pulling, you know, these new foils, these new character foils like Rachel Wise, David Harper, and Florence Peele, it's interesting to see this family and the secret life that Natasha Romanoff had that maybe even the Avengers family never knew about.
00:51:21
Speaker
And I think that's really what the writers were trying to be intentional with, with the Black Widow film. I think as for, does it make its mark in doing justice or providing the depth and clarity that we want with Black Widow? I think we get to see some of the different tones and the different elements we wanted to know about Natasha Romanoff, but I still think we just kind of
00:51:51
Speaker
like we had a good hand of cards and we just pushed it on the table and then we, we decided to go with that. You know, I still feel like there is a lot to be said or there's a lot of craft that we can really create with Scarlett Johansson as well as even some of the characters now that we have, Florence Pugh and Julia Louis-Dreyfus as Valentina Contessa at the cameo, I guess at the end of the end credit scene.
00:52:21
Speaker
those were all things that it's like, oh, there's a lot more that we could do with Black Widow, but we kind of just scratched the surface to justify giving Scarlett Johansson a movie.
00:52:32
Speaker
Yeah, I guess, to me, especially the ending, like I had thoughts as I was watching the movie, but then the ending was just felt very convenient. Like, well, like, now I didn't think I had one family and now I have two. Now I'm off to save my blah, blah, blah. Like it just felt like there was something about the ending I didn't find very satisfying. And I was just thinking about how that is a lot to happen for her in the span of time when she, you know, the Avengers broke up and
00:53:02
Speaker
the whole plot line of this fake family, not fake family dynamic that she had. I feel like so much of what was really screwed up about that was buried in the humor of it.
00:53:17
Speaker
And I just didn't have like your fake mom and your fake dad, you're just gonna like forgive them like that easily. Where like they were still a part of building this organization and like they still put you in child slavery. And like you're proud of them because they became like great assassins. But then you're also proud of them because they became an Avenger. Like I just didn't, I really didn't get the dynamics. It just didn't make any sense to me.
00:53:46
Speaker
Well, let me tell you why I didn't make any sense. And this is kind of my my next point. My problem with the whole movie overall, is that this was not the first Black Widow movie, like for me, watching it. And at this point, I have seen all of the movies, right? So like, it's not like that. When I watched it, I felt like I was coming in with missing information.
00:54:13
Speaker
And that pisses me off for Scarlett Johansson and the character and what a female lead can do for these movies. They gave Black Widow a sequel to a non existing Black Widow movie. Because yeah, we know we like over the course of the regular Avengers movies and things like that we have seen Black Widow kind of talk about her past and honestly they didn't even talk about how she's been sterilized like
00:54:40
Speaker
That's a kind of they do. They did. Yeah. But it's just like, why are we getting a whole black widow movie where she goes and then with the point where she she like blew up this building with his daughter in it. But what like
00:54:57
Speaker
where did that come from? Because I feel like in the course of a normal Avengers movie or a normal other kind of male lead movie that we get a story we get this story building up to that point. And then in the sequel, we would get like flashbacks of that because even in the other movies, we have references to like the whole Sokovia situation, which I know is a big plot line. But clearly, what happened in Budapest was a big plot line.
00:55:27
Speaker
for this black widow movie that we got that was one of the big like surprises or reveals and that's what they were saying was like Budapest was referenced in the Avengers it was referenced I think a little bit later on okay but but they said like this you'll finally find out what happens in Budapest so they're giving they're feeding us this story as a surprise when that never would have happened in another Avengers movie
00:55:49
Speaker
they are feeding it to us like we are supposed to just like, Oh, I'm, I'm so happy that we finally get closure about this thing that we've been referencing. Well, but in another movie, I feel like they would have I will push back a little with that because I think you know, we do get some of the surprises, at least when we look at the assassination of Tony Stark's parents. That was never seen. That was never even mentioned. And then we find out that the car crash was actually plotted through the winter soldier project
00:56:18
Speaker
And that was something that was brand new to everyone. So they did do, you know, like we have references of Howard Stark.
00:56:26
Speaker
references of the Winter Soldier, we never knew what was taking place, but they kind of just quickly show us that in that one instance. And I think that's kind of the way they decided to do it with the Budapest story, unfortunately. I agree with what Andrew is saying, but holistically, Bianca, I get your point in the sense that this movie was not a backstory. It was about an event that took place that still continued to just reference her.
00:56:54
Speaker
backstory. And then we finally got to through like the visuals like, and through her sister story, we got to kind of connect the dots. But it's a lot of just continuing to connect the dots. I think they also they like monopolize on the trauma card here a lot. And it was interesting to me where like, you know, we're taking Natasha story, and we're taking kind of
00:57:22
Speaker
Oh, she has a dark past as we've heard in the Avengers stories. And then we're trying to kind of integrate the back, backstory or the past of her experiences. And then in addition to that, we integrate her sister's story with that as well. So you almost you're
00:57:43
Speaker
you almost like I don't know what the proper term would be like they're conflating the two and for me from my perspective, it's because they don't want to give her more movies or they don't think she could like this female lead can handle that many movies as far as the fan base goes.
00:58:02
Speaker
And that that's just that's just my perspective and my point of view. I just feel like for a regular male lead, we would have gotten that backstory. And honestly, that would have made I think Natasha that for me, who's not necessarily honestly, like a big black widow fan, I guess, I think
00:58:23
Speaker
I would have gravitated with her more if I had learned more about her backstory kind of on her own. And then in the sequel or in the movie that we got, you bring in the family, you bring in the family dynamic, you learn more about her connections. I think that goes to show also, you know, the the point of reference or the frame of reference that they built Black Widow on was the supporting role character that she is in the Avengers.
00:58:50
Speaker
comics too. I think it shows that even in the storytelling or the narratives that have been established via the literature that she has, it's not in depth compared to like an Iron Man arc or anything even close to even
00:59:06
Speaker
even what an Ant-Man arc is. Yeah. You know, and that's where, you know, there's plenty of stories with Black Widow. But oh, Daredevil is a large prominent role within Black Widow. Oh, Captain America is a large foil to the Black Widow narrative and story arc. And that's funny, because, you know, it's like Daredevil. I didn't know that. Yeah, in the comics Daredevil is pretty prominent when Natasha Romanoff. But when you see this now in film. The whole Ben Affleck of it all.
00:59:35
Speaker
Sorry. Even her connection with Hawkeye, even that could have been maybe ending the first movie on how she knows. Because for me, I feel like her and Hawkeye have this, not that it's unspoken, but they clearly have this history that I don't know anything about. It's just someone who experiences the films. And then you're going to bring in at the very end, Yelena is just going to
01:00:04
Speaker
appear in Hawkeye's series, supposedly. And Yelena is going to like, you know, now take on this dynamic with with Hawkeye. But it's like, I don't know jack shit about Black Widow and Hawkeye's connection. Like, I don't know anything about them in terms of what what I see on screen, like maybe the fan base gets more in the comics. But I'm just saying that, like, from a film standpoint,
01:00:29
Speaker
it infuriates me that that this is what we got for Black Widow because the fans would have been pissed. They know they would have been pissed if this was like the Captain America or Iron Man. No, I want to agree with you because it's sad that we see Bucky Barnes and Sam Wilson, Falcon and Winter Soldier supporting characters of Captain America having a buddy cop show before we see
01:00:57
Speaker
Black Widow and Hawkeye having their show. Right. You know, and that's where I do think though, we we have to be mindful that it might have been a choice of the actress Scarlett Johansson's choice that she might have she she's not her contracts done or she might not have wanted to extend her contract.
01:01:15
Speaker
And obviously, there's probably reasons for that. That's all well and good. But if they would have offered her if they would have offered her what Iron Man is getting, I'm sure she would have been able to do a movie back in 2013 when this supposedly is really taking place. Yeah, we're getting we're getting a black widow movie like you said so lately. Yeah, in terms of a timeline, she's already dead. And now it's just because they're introducing more Marvel women. There's a bigger Marvel fan base. There's a bigger call from some of their fans to get black widow.
01:01:43
Speaker
no it's like it's an afterthought it's an afterthought it's an afterthought but i think there's also there's there's more to be seen or more development and stories to be established and i think that's what they're looking to try and do with yelena because i think that's that that is something where yelena is a black widow
01:02:03
Speaker
And she, there's two Black Widows in the comics. There's Yelena and there's Natasha. And Yelena does come into the Avengers roster. So, you know, Florence Pugh, this is only the beginning for her. And we can, I, again, I don't want to be defensive over the studios because God only knows how
01:02:25
Speaker
how frustrating some of the choices are and the objectification happens. But we can only hope that the Yelena story or progress that they will make with that character as a Black Widow and the stories that will be created with her will be better integrated as a standalone character
01:02:43
Speaker
and then her into the Avengers franchise. That's what I'm excited for. Yeah, we'll see. Gianna, I'm sorry that we were just screaming, but do you? Well, I just I think this is like a funny moment when we try to like tell ourselves and when Bianca and I try to practice like the art of the interview, we're like,
01:03:03
Speaker
when we bring on a guest, you know, you guys listen to us all the time, like it's about listening, letting the guests speak. And sometimes, sometimes we get heated and that's okay. But I do have some thoughts about the humor in the film, which I think kind of just goes back to
01:03:25
Speaker
me scrutinizing these female figures so much because humor is such a prevalent part of why we love the Marvel, you know, cinematic universe so much and the portrayal of it in movies is because of that, like, catch humor. But the whole thing with like the pockets and I'm like, Oh, yeah, I get it. Like women love like clothes with pockets like cool. But then
01:03:48
Speaker
I'm like, I do like a dress with pocket. And I was just, I felt so dumb that I was sitting there and I was thinking about, I do, in the moment I thought it was funny, but then I kept going back like, oh, women think pockets is funny. And then I wasn't paying attention to the rest of what was going on because I was so hung up on how I felt about the stupid pocket thing. And I don't know why, I just thought it was kind of funny. And then I thought too, the other part of humor was when
01:04:18
Speaker
Florence P. was making fun of Scarlet Joe's like, you know, her like, her heroine pose. And then I thought that was kind of them compensating for their prior hyper sexualization of Black Widow. And I'm like, now you're going to try to like cover all this shit up with like your classic like humor of it all. So I have thoughts about that. But I think it is time to get into the lawsuit of it all.
01:04:43
Speaker
So Andrew, what do we think about this for cinema moving forward?
Scarlett Johansson's Lawsuit and Streaming Implications
01:04:48
Speaker
How does it impact the way that we experience art? Many films are meant to be seen experienced in the cinematic setting. And that's kind of what our artists needed. And so with the whole streaming platform of it all, this is really shaking things up. Yeah, there's a lot of shake and bake with streaming services right now.
01:05:12
Speaker
I mean, first and foremost, justice for Scarlett Johansson. I think that's where it goes. Disney, to have the audacity to put out the comment that they did with a star that is antagonizing with all justice reserved to her for the royalties she has well earned and deserves.
01:05:39
Speaker
I think it's pretty shitty to see Disney as well as, I mean, Disney to die on the hill, but for Marvel Studios not even to, you know, even speak out or make a statement or discuss or put forward any sort of recognition or idea of what the tension that is going on. I think in addition to that, it's also,
01:06:10
Speaker
Funny to see, I've been listening to a couple of podcasts as well as people discussing this topic about the streaming platforms and services. And Warner Brothers, because they were going to be releasing all their items on HBO, made sure that they would be paying their stars in advance for the estimated amount that the movie would produce. And with that being said, if the stars are being paid what they're being paid initially
01:06:39
Speaker
within and throughout those streaming platforms and getting the earnings that were requested of them. I think that's very important. I think, you know, for me, just fundamentally, I'm not too worried about I don't want to be crass or disingenuous, but I'm not as worried about
01:06:58
Speaker
Hollywood actors as much as I'm worried about local theaters. And what this means with all the streaming platforms and services that are taking place, the death of the American cinema can really be prominent right now. It really emits the pandemic and within the streaming services and the way they're deciding to put out art and their material now.
01:07:21
Speaker
And I've always been a big advocate and a big fan for experiencing and having and finding yourself immersed in art in the way the art was supposed to be expressed. So being able to see a film in theaters, I think is very important. I know some people have reservations on how to do that, especially given the nature of the current sociocultural events we're in right now.
01:07:51
Speaker
but I think it's just it's very important you know with all these streaming services and what they are doing they also are providing certain accessibility so to be able to have the accessibility to see it from the comfort of your home and to experience it with multiple people you could even do a movie night or like a movie event or a
01:08:13
Speaker
an opening night of Black Widow at home and everybody splits the cost for the $30 it is to buy it on Disney Plus for premier access. But for me, I think it's just very important to think, you know, for the cinematic experience to really still endure and for
01:08:31
Speaker
at least as we're seeing it right now with Marvel's properties and Disney's properties as well, we should be very adamant and advocating for making sure that the royalties and the finances are going to the workers and the production that have well earned and deserve what's going on and taking the time to provide that entertainment.
01:08:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think, like always, like all of our issues in our talk, I have conflicting thoughts, because absolutely, the leading ladies need to be getting paid what they deserve 1000%. At the same time, I think it's just
01:09:21
Speaker
I think the nature of our world that we're living in and the advancement of our technology was inevitably going to lead to this type of discussion, but it is
01:09:33
Speaker
unfortunate. And it's infuriating that this is taking place with prominent leading ladies of cinema at a company who has so much money. Yeah, like this, this should not be an issue. And going back to the way that they treated her making her making Scarlett Johansson out
01:09:55
Speaker
to be this type of villain and greedy woman who's asking for her money. Women always get this- Yeah, for them to publicly announce that word was so uncalled for. Asking for our fair share and what we should be paid were villainized for that in the public eye and that's not right.
01:10:17
Speaker
Like exactly what you said, there are things to be said moving forward in the way that film is created, the way that art is shown and, you know, jobs of people who work in the theater, you know, it's just, there's so much happening that this one kind of lawsuit is bringing forward, which I think is very interesting, how Charlotte's case in particular has kind of like,
01:10:40
Speaker
I don't know, open the door for all these other issues to be sorted through as we navigate the pandemic and post pandemic, hopefully, you know, world of art. It's interesting because we only know what we know. We've heard both sides from, you know, the actresses and the platform itself. And we at least, who knows one would be able to see that. But if we can see the contract itself, I guess I'm just curious because
01:11:08
Speaker
Obviously the pandemic has been going on for a while. Obviously Disney Plus has been established for a while. So I'm curious just as like lawyers on both sides were formulating this contract. Like Disney Plus had to be mentioned and they're like somewhere. So I'm just very curious about like the legal legality of Disney Plus and how that was missed like on both sides. I just find that really fascinating and it's interesting though Bianca as you pointed out how
01:11:37
Speaker
Coincidentally, uncoincidentally, the three kind of big movies that we've had released were from, you know, these three big female leads. We had Cruella, we had Emma Stone, Emily Blunt, and now Scarlett Joh. So it's just interesting. I don't think it's coincidental. I mean, I suppose it is and it isn't, but it's just...
01:11:57
Speaker
In my view, and this is a hot take, but also not. This would not happen. I hate using it. And Mulan. Well, there were other problems with Mulan. I think that was a separate issue because of the political dynamics of it. But I'm just saying that Robert Downey Jr., this would not happen to him. This would not happen to him.
01:12:21
Speaker
Well, this is a good point to be said because I think it's interesting because the Marvel contract for Scarlett Johansson was that all her earnings would be, I guess, whatever adequate for a theatrical release.
01:12:36
Speaker
So a theatrical release for all the movies that she was done. And that was what was explicit on her contract. So it did not incorporate the streaming parameters of what is Disney Plus and for it to actually end up there. So I'm curious. I just in trying to be devil's advocate, like obviously these actresses
01:13:00
Speaker
have had to learn how to like protect themselves like they have lawyers that have a legal team. It is mind blowing to me that somehow like Disney and Marvel got away without mentioning
01:13:12
Speaker
the physical written word Disney plus in there at all. Like what? Well, that's, I mean, to your point, we don't know what we don't know. And obviously we don't have our hands on those contracts. But I think that the other part of this is that culturally for Black Widow in particular, because she is a leading super heroin figure, I think the crowds that didn't show up for her in the theater, like
01:13:41
Speaker
some of the male crowds who may have gone to see it on opening weekend normally if it was their big favorite you know Thor character or something like that. I know the pandemic adds that added complication to it no doubt and there's no way unfortunately there's just no way of kind of reckoning the two because of our
01:14:00
Speaker
current circumstance with COVID. But I think that there is an issue with some of the fan base not showing up to the theater. That's where it becomes very, very fascinating because we have all of our 2021 theatrical trailers released except for Spider-Man Far From Home, which is supposed to be released in December.
01:14:25
Speaker
And it's very, I'm very curious, you know, we have two new superhero films being, new characters and new superhero films being revealed in these trailers, Shang-Chi and The Eternals. And both of these will be the premieres of these superheroes as we see them on the big screen. But
01:14:46
Speaker
they have yet to release the Far From Home trailer, and this is a big thing within the fandom, and my prediction is they're not releasing it because there's a lot that will be revealed in the Far From Home trailer. As we were saying earlier, we might see Tobey Maguire, Andrew Garfield, Alfred Molina's already confirmed, Jamie Foxx has already confirmed,
01:15:05
Speaker
So this multiverse tease is already there within Far From Home. And if they release that trailer, the hype is already there. The following is already there. But also, you have a male actor who will be grossing so much revenue for Marvel Studios as we speak. And they don't want to release that trailer prematurely because they possibly are expecting a delay because of COVID. That is awful. Oh my gosh. That is fascinating.
01:15:33
Speaker
But isn't that something? That is because all 2021 trailers are revealed Spider-Man Far From Home or pardon me, Spider-Man No Way Home is supposed to be released in December. We still have yet to have that trailer. It's supposed to be released in December.
01:15:50
Speaker
Oh, he's so mad. That is I mean, like, a Christmas, a Christmas movie, a movie like that, the trailer. And you said when we went to go see it in the theaters, I was expecting it. He was like, I think we're gonna get a Spiderman trailer.
01:16:05
Speaker
Oh, also something that would be interesting, I guess, to compare it to relative it's just so hard with all these different like unique circumstances of our time, but the shang chi release. I mean, no doubt that is coming out very soon. It's September 3. Yeah, it will be interesting to see how black widow does comparatively to that. And I and I was getting trailers for that, like when I went to go see black widow, but you're right. I mean, I didn't. Yeah.
01:16:32
Speaker
Spider-Man is not out yet. Man, that is fascinating. I almost want to end things on that note, but I think I do want to ask this last question about the end of the credits scene that we had with Yelena visiting Natasha's grave.
01:16:53
Speaker
And then just to preface, I did not watch Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I tried. When we were talking about WandaVision, I had already missed like the Civil War like movie. That was one of the ones I skipped over. And I did go back and like watch it and like, I just don't like, like Captain America is not my favorite, but I know like he's like the leader of like, man, the mess. So, you know, I had to
01:17:18
Speaker
So I tried, but mom was watching it and I kind of like saw some scenes. And then I saw we have Julia Louis-Dreyfus who was introduced and she plays a character, Valentina Allegra.
01:17:29
Speaker
Dave Fontaine, is that correct? Yeah. I've heard Contessa Valentina is one of her aliases, but Valentina, yeah, that's correct. Right. It's a long name. So I guess, and this kind of ties into our conversation with Loki, and we were kind of talking about this over the break, is Loki is setting up so much for us from
01:17:51
Speaker
The whole timeline TVA of it all breaking off all these other multi universes and how that is going to lead us into the big champagne champagne of it all in our next big villain, which Thanos is just a fly on the wall at this point, which just is like infuriating. However,
01:18:08
Speaker
So I guess I have always felt the struggle once these like short series have been released on Disney Plus that Marvel and Disney has made a statement in the past that you should not have to like watch these short series or these series to be invested in the main movies or to get the plot. And I just think that that's total bullshit. I mean, I just think it's the nature of how everything is so connected.
01:18:37
Speaker
And it's and it's profitable for them and like whatever. But that is how the original complexity and the comics like that's just the story is so complex. It's very hard to not watch one without the other. So I just may snippet from seeing Valentina and Falcon and the Winter Soldier when I saw her pop up at the end of the credits, I was like,
01:18:58
Speaker
That is the last straw for me. Like do not tell me because I don't know who the heck this woman is. And I just it just annoy me.
01:19:07
Speaker
I will say Black Widow was supposed to be there, be released before Falcon and the Winter Soldier. So that was supposed to be the first appearance of Valentina that we saw. Of course, sure. So we would see her for a second time in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. So the whole thing, though, with that being said, I do believe that, of course, if you watch the Disney Plus shows, you're going to have a lot more context to a lot of the situations that are going on and the inter happening.
01:19:37
Speaker
I do think and I think there's a talent and crafting that the writers do within Marvel Studios and I will be very curious to see how they will so quickly and just fast and feasibly be able to make the plot line or the happenings of Loki and the happenings of WandaVision
01:20:02
Speaker
here
01:20:19
Speaker
basically summarize all of the endgame and infinity war situation of the Thanos snap and then the people reappearing. And they did that within like a five minute montage of the student news for Peter Parker's high school. So I am curious, I think there could be some really talented and like craftful writing with that. But
01:20:40
Speaker
I mean, I think in theory, what Disney is spewing out to us is like, you don't have to watch any of this, but you will. We don't have to watch WandaVision. All hail the mouse house. It's just like, they will be fine. They will be fine, and it will go on, and it will do what it needs to do. And yes, there will be ties, except for with Black Widow. We got no ties with that.
01:21:09
Speaker
they will go on and I think that they are like not concerned with people like us who maybe didn't watch Falcon and the Winter Soldier, you know, like, I guess I it's like a part of me is even frustrated with myself that I just, I
01:21:24
Speaker
can't get into it like those are just character and I like what I like and those are characters that I just haven't been invested in it like I just I and same thing goes with like Hawkeye like he's never been my like boy with little arrows and then the guy with wings. Like Steinfeld will be the new Hawkeye who will
01:21:42
Speaker
Hailee Steinfeld will be Kate Bishop, who will be the next Hawkeye. So they are really setting up for the young Avengers. Wait, Yelena and Hailee Steinfeld and... I don't know. We'll see. We'll see how I feel when the time comes. I could ask Andrew like a million more questions. My brain is ping pong-ing around in my head.
01:22:06
Speaker
I really, really like this episode. It's really, it is really fun to get into it from the, you know, get into it all, even from someone like me and Bianca who have learned to get into it and be invested in some of the stories, but are still somewhat on the outside of it. So it's always, it's always fun to have you on, Andrew.
01:22:26
Speaker
It's, I feel so rewarded knowing that you two are learning so much about superheroes and comics and that you do have a certain investment and it creates certain demotions in you that I love to see it. Yeah, I definitely have emotions. That's for sure. I have feelings about it. I'm happy to extend the universe.
01:22:54
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Well, everybody as usual, if you have any thoughts about this episode, as we do, you can always share them in our Art Pop Tarts Facebook group. As I put in my last Instagram post, I like it when the tea is tart. So do with that what you will. And yeah, any other closing thoughts, anything else you want to share with us, Andrew?
01:23:24
Speaker
Justice for Black Widow. Justice for Black Widow. All right, everyone. And be on the lookout for that fantastic four set. We'll feature it. Andrew James taking over APD social media. I will send you a photo that you could feature when they come in. Great. Oh my gosh.
01:23:46
Speaker
Awesome. Well, everyone, we are going to cool off Simmer Down and we will talk to you all next Tuesday. Bye, everyone. Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci Fink, and me, Gianna Martucci Fink. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner and photography is by Adrian Turner. And our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.
01:24:29
Speaker
you