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S2.E6 - Opposites Attract
171 Plays1 year ago
Opposites Attract is a classic but does it need some sprucing up? Can it sometime be used as an excuse to cover up some troubling issues?
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Favorite Tropes and Emotional Responses
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the chosen ones and other tropes where I ask two published authors about their favourite tropes and the ones that make them want to cry. Um, you know the Hunger Games? And now... I do know the Hunger Games. I've heard about it. Yeah, you do know them, yeah. Essentially what the duzzies do to them is not parenting, it's child abuse. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. Man's playing a lot to you, Nanny. It's fine. It might be familiar to you.
00:00:38
Speaker
I think you should sing it Jamie. No, I'm okay. You can find it on YouTube. Let's talk about the trope.
Attraction to Opposites: Filling the Gaps
00:00:54
Speaker
It's a staple. I mean, as far as romance goes, both in fiction, I would say in the real world too, it's pretty natural, I'd say. I think as human beings, it's common for us to try and surround ourselves with people that have not just like similar skills and interests, but also people that fill out the gaps we see in ourselves.
00:01:16
Speaker
So, for this trope, to make it the trope itself, I think we should say out front that it needs to be the extreme opposite. It needs to be polar opposites. Otherwise, I think it's just sort of like, no one's going to be, no two people are going to be completely insane. There's always going to be things they clash on.
00:01:35
Speaker
But as simple as it sounds, it does split off into a few categories, I think. It can mean a few different things because the thing that's opposite could be like a personal trait, a way that someone carries themselves, which I think is the most common, but it could also be like a class divide, a cultural difference. So I guess depending on where you stand with nature versus nurture,
00:02:01
Speaker
those could be deemed similar, but yeah, it has a bit of a range to it. I've got loads of examples here, but let's hand it over to Naomi. Naomi, what do you think about Opposites Trapped?
Analyzing 'Opposites Attract': Mulder & Scully
00:02:13
Speaker
So when I first started looking into this, I was like, how is this different from enemies to lovers? After investigation, I understand it's kind of like more of a character disposition and how two points of view can play off each other.
00:02:29
Speaker
And I think if you lean hard enough into it, yes, it's a trope. But I also think it's probably at its core, just good writing to have characters with different attitudes, but common goals. So I was thinking of a good example of this. And recently I have been hardcore into the X-Files. And Mulder and Scully, I think, are such a good example of this. That's a good one. Because Mulder is kind of the strong believer in the supernatural because he had this paranormal event in his childhood.
00:02:59
Speaker
and he's grown up to be like a ready believer in the unexplainable. Whereas Scully, you know, conversely, she's like a medical examiner.
00:03:07
Speaker
and she favors a scientific approach, but together they solve crime. And it just works really well and they bounce off each other so nicely. And I think also as well, this doesn't have to be necessarily a romantic trope, although it does come into romantic relationships, which I think is what I like about it. And I think generally for me, I just look at this as good writing, just to have different attitudes, but common goals.
00:03:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it definitely, the like good things from the writing perspective that we talked about on the enemies to lovers, it definitely has all of those things because it has the conflict already. I guess when looking at this and enemies to lovers, I think another big distinction is
Opposites vs. Enemies
00:03:50
Speaker
they don't have to be enemies. No, that's it.
00:03:53
Speaker
you know, they can be sort of awkward friends or like, not even like, yeah, there's no need for them to be enemies. And also enemies don't, enemies to lovers, the enemies don't necessarily have to be opposites. They could, they could have similar point of view. It's just, they just are enemies because of something else.
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's just like different methods of going about the same thing, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. It's about creating conflict between two characters. How do you create that conflict? Yeah. Melissa, what do you think? Yeah, I agree. I think it can definitely cross over into a lot of other tropes and it's quite hard to separate it away from those
Rich-Poor Dynamics in Literature
00:04:31
Speaker
tropes. So one of the things I noticed when I was looking through examples, and I was actually weirdly chatting to my dad about this. He's read one book ever and that book is Jane Eyre and he loves it.
00:04:40
Speaker
was just like in Jane Eyre and I was like cool haven't read it tell me a little bit about the story so guys if I'm getting this wrong this is my dad's fault but he was like oh yeah because she's a governor she's a teacher and he's like the rich dude in the big mansion and they get together and he said oh it's a bit like sound of music she's a poor nun with nothing apart from a guitar and a penchant for making children's clothes out of curtains
00:05:03
Speaker
And he is a nearly Nazi, admiral, but is nice, but also rich. And I was like, wow, a lot of these are to do with being rich and poor, actually. I didn't know if that was another trope. I couldn't tell. And that would obviously make people opposites, because if you're born into wealth, like we were even thinking about Mark Twain and Prince and the pauper, and I know that's not necessarily romantic, but there are romantic takes on that in lots of Christmas films and stuff, romantic takes on that. And it just made me think,
00:05:31
Speaker
I don't know there seems to be that seems to be a big one I think it's less class and more specifically money almost like having a really poor person and a really rich person they teach each other about values and you know what they're missing I don't want to say each other obviously I really mean the poor person teaches the rich person
00:06:01
Speaker
I mean, uh, Pride and Prejudice.
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah, I was thinking about Pride and Prejudice because it's a fun one that always comes up on this podcast.
Class and Personality in 'Pride and Prejudice'
00:06:15
Speaker
And originally I was like, Oh, but they're not really opposites because like I character wise, I do find them vaguely similar. But then I realized, no, there is like a big, there's a big difference between like, he is very, he's very up on social convention.
00:06:30
Speaker
and like things done in a certain proper way whereas she for the time is extremely progressive and outspoken for her station and for being a woman basically. Which is why it works in Bridget Jones right because obviously it's like a play on exactly what they're doing there. Yeah exactly Bridget Jones is a good one. That is a good example yeah.
00:06:50
Speaker
that's about her realising that the polite one who is less, because she's a bit wild and manic, so her going with Hugh Grant would be, he's more similar to her in many ways. So her going through the opposite one was actually healthier for her because I think that's the appeal, I think, and the nice thing about this is when you put a couple together
00:07:11
Speaker
and they sort of, they kind of catch each other's flaws, you know, where one of them is flawed, the other one kind of spans over to that and vice versa. I think there's a lot of parallels to real life here. Yeah. Like in this trope, I think it's probably quite true of real life in the fact that people, I think, often look for opposites. I usually look for a rich person, yeah, to be honest.
00:07:42
Speaker
And I was thinking about it in terms of me and Ollie and how Ollie is very much a do it right first time kind of guy and he'll spend hours like researching and planning. Plotting. Yes, he's a plotter.
00:07:59
Speaker
Whereas I'll jump straight in and get it wrong probably this the first or second time I'm probably I get it right second or third time kind of girl and it's just interesting how how that kind of you know I think this is this this trope I think and like a lot like the slow burn how we discussed it there is it's very representative of what's actually real in in real life and I think possibly
Disney's Take on Opposites
00:08:21
Speaker
that's why it's popular because you can just see it working do you know what I mean like it's it's it's realistic and
00:08:26
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Obviously in fiction, like with all fictional things, it's going to be exaggerated. But yeah, I think it's a very relatable and realistic trope. The class thing is everywhere as well. Titanic is opposite as a tri-act. Yeah. Yeah. Pocahontas. Do you know, I thought there was a really good one. Batman and Catwoman.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah. She's a baddie. He's basically a policeman and she's basically a burglar. It works. It's really cool. But she'll ultimately do the right thing when it comes down to it, which is why they work.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good one. Going back onto, we dropped a couple of Disney ones, but there's a ton of Disney ones with this. Beauty and the Beast. Yeah, definitely. Tangled. Oh, yeah, that's a great one.
00:09:21
Speaker
Tangled, I think, I did Tangled and then I was like, oh, and this and this and this. And I realized that there's, within this trope, there's one archetype that I think gets used so much. And that's, so we'll start with Tangled. And that's the two characters are, you have the like wild sort of rough upbringing, grumpy, cynical, usually naughty like Scallywag. So that's Flynn. And then he'll be meeting the more sheltered, but eager to learn and always optimistic.
00:09:51
Speaker
other half, which is Rapunzel in this. And then that, that exact, um, like setup is what they use in Frozen. Yeah. Kristoff. Yeah. And then also moving out of Disney, that's what they use in, uh, it's in the breakfast club. They do that because you have like the bad boy and then like the rich popular girl and Star Wars with Han Solo and Leia.
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah, I thought of them. Yeah. That one's got more depth, though, because I think that one, like on the surface is just the scallywag and the princess. And then you dig deeper in that. And this works really well with especially Han Solo's character arc, assuming you haven't watched the standalone movie. Don't worry about that. His thing is that he's selfish, and her thing is that she's selfless, because she does everything for the rebellion and for the people, but he does everything for himself. Yeah.
00:10:48
Speaker
I think that one works really well. Yeah, for sure.
00:10:51
Speaker
But then also Aladdin is the same thing. Disney loves this trope. And that's also poor and rich. And they get to live in her fancy castle. So is Frozen and Tangled. Tangled is eventually, but they all are. It's always a rich princess and a poor street kid. You know where else that is? Ron and Hermione. Hermione's kind of like this rich girl. Is she rich? Yeah, she's making bank. She is totally making bank.
00:11:19
Speaker
No, he was like, he's a dentist. He's loaded. Two dentists are both dentists. Oh my God. She lived in. That's true, but that house was well nice. Right? In central London. And yes, and she's like also quite book smart and serious, but he's kind of emotional and funny in the books. Well, in the movies, in the books, she's not exactly the most serious person. Yeah, she's psychopathic. She's quite wild. She's much more well seen.
00:11:47
Speaker
That's true. Putting people in jars and stuff. Yeah. Her mind and mind I thought was a really good one. And not just like in terms of class divide. Also interesting. She's single child, right? Single child with working wealthy parents and he's big family and like a sort of
00:12:08
Speaker
chaotic environment where they're just like bringing in. I watched a really stupid reel the other day where it was like, and I never thought about this, this is off topic, but you know how Harry goes and stays with them for like years? Harry's like super rich and they're like barely making ends meet. And I'm like, Harry, you know. Look, Harry wasn't in Hufflepuff. He was in Gryffindor. He's not kind. He's not kind.
00:12:38
Speaker
But Hermione and Ron, this is a fun one, which is the like, by the book, studious and with the rule breaking, like lazy, like casual person, which is one that you see this loads in detective shows. This is kind of like you were saying with X-Files, where Scully is kind of by the book and like looking for the scientific reason. And then Mulder is always like, no, it was the alien.
00:13:09
Speaker
But they do this in all the police shows as well. I realised this is Amy and Jake. Yeah, absolutely. Castle, Bones, The Mentalist. Any show where there's like the slightly off the wall genius who works with the police. That person will always be paired with the like straight shooting police person.
00:13:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think it works nicely with love triangles as well, especially when they have a sort of choice to pick the person who's more similar to them. And that seems the most obvious way to go, but instead they pick the person that they can like learn more from. So it kind of, it's not exactly opposites. It's really difficult. I was, I was struggling to, of course, wedge within an inch of its life, the Hunger Games into this episode. And I was like, how do I do this?
00:13:54
Speaker
But I didn't just know. So she's quite similar to Gayle, they even look alike. There's a bit in the book, which is a bit weird, where they're like, oh, everyone thinks we're cousins, and it was a bit weird. Whereas, obviously, the baker's boy, he has a bit more money, and in the books that's explored a bit more, they own their own house, and they have the bakery, and they make cakes and
Character Choices in 'The Hunger Games'
00:14:10
Speaker
stuff. And obviously, he comes from a not very loving family, and she has her sister that she looks after, and he is very much trying to always see the best in people, and
00:14:19
Speaker
Politically speaking, she could have picked Gail the prim Reaper to like bomb the whole capital and like be evil and like have revenge all the time or in the end of course she picks Peter.
00:14:29
Speaker
who is that calmer person who wants to sort of make a world a better place. And that's the opposite of how she's feeling. And also, I think it's interesting when they switch it and they pick the wrong person. So in Black Sails, there's a character, Eleanor, who's like the governor's daughter, and so she's got money. And she's with this character called Charles Vane, who's a pirate and a scallywag. And spoilers, but basically she ends up choosing
00:14:55
Speaker
to marry a guy who's also rich and comes to the island to become the governor. And it doesn't end well for her. And that's interesting because she picks somebody, she was like, oh, this person's the person I'm supposed to pick, like they're from the same class as me. I'm going to pick them. And it doesn't end well. It does not end well. She picked the safe option. Yeah. That's why it was wrong. Exactly. Well, I mean, that's, it's the same as the PG version, which is just frozen, right?
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah, because he's a psychopath, isn't he? Yeah, but he's like also has siblings. He's like a royal with older siblings, so he'll never be king or whatever. So, yeah, she goes with the safe option. That's like a weird lesson to be teaching kids. Don't pick the obvious safe option.
00:15:42
Speaker
Seems a bit wild. I've got a few more fun ones on here. The one of Melissa's favorites, the proposal.
00:15:53
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Because she, Sandra Bullock, very uptight, career focused. And then he, Ryan Reynolds, his character is very like family orientated and he has aspirations of being, he wants to be an author, right? I think that's his whole thing. No, I think he wants to be an editor. He wants to be what she is. He wants to like get ahead in publishing. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
00:16:14
Speaker
Either way, he has aspirations on the creative success where she's just fully very focused. That's a fun one, even though we've discussed how insane she is for everything she does there.
00:16:29
Speaker
going back to Beauty and the Beast because we didn't talk about this. Beauty and the Beast is an interesting one because it's kind of like this is a very like cookie-cutter one where it's one character is melancholy and like kind of sad and then the other character is optimistic and trying to like move on to the next next good thing which I think is quite this one happens quite a lot. I was thinking of me before you
00:16:58
Speaker
Oh yeah, I haven't watched that because I don't want to cry. It is a bit sad, just a little bit. Spoilers, quite sad. Yeah. Got that from the poster. But that one's all about he is extremely depressed with like the way that his life has turned out and then she comes in and they butt heads over the fact that she's like really happy and he's like just leave me alone.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah. And he's rich and she's poor. Ah, there it is again. Oh my god, it's everywhere. You can't escape it. Trying to think of one where there isn't a rich person. It's a romance, right? Doesn't she want to look after him? She works as his nurse, yeah. Yeah.
00:17:36
Speaker
Not by him though. No. By his mother. Which is because he tries to get rid of her. Because he's depressed, borderline suicidal. Yeah. And then they get together just as he says, I maybe don't want to be here anymore. And then magically inherits loads of money so she can live in Paris.
00:17:56
Speaker
Interesting coincidence. What fun. HCA if I ever heard one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It all, it all ends well. And then, I mean, another one, which is sad, um, is a walk to remember.
00:18:09
Speaker
Yes. Oh my gosh. I love to walk to remember when I was younger. I would just watch it just to be sad. Just to be sad. I mean, other than like maybe an episode of The Last of Us, I don't think I've cried as much in a film. Yeah. A Walk to Remember. Oh, it's so good. That's another Mandy Moore and Shane West. What a time to be alive. Let's do a fun one. Here's a fun one. Clueless.
00:18:36
Speaker
Yes. Yes. She's like super vapid. She's super materialistic. Everything with her.
00:18:44
Speaker
I think he's similar background. They're step-siblings, aren't they? I know, I was just thinking this is the incest joke. Very weird that they're step-siblings. But they say that throughout the movie, she rejects the idea that her brother constantly, so it's okay. Because they only become step-siblings when they're old. They're already 18. Well, he's older. He's like 20, I think.
00:19:08
Speaker
Um, but yeah, she's like materialism, superficial, and he's very much like intellectualism, sort of, um, political like. But she's also not stupid.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah, but she kind of plays into the, she plays into like, I'm a dumb blonde. Yeah. That one, that one's a fun one. I thought, uh, it's a classic. That one, I think works. It has a nice resolution. The arc is good. Um, here's one I found where the entire premise of the show, at least at the start was based around this trope. Um, and that was the big bang theory.
00:19:48
Speaker
Ah, of course, yeah. You can totally see it. Yeah, with Penny. Because the whole thing is just, the whole start of the show is, here's the attractive, extroverted, outgoing blonde girl. And here's the nerd who lives with his super nerdy pop culture obsessed friends. And then the humour comes from
00:20:11
Speaker
I think this is like, when you look at it, when I looked at it in this terms of this, I was like, oh, this is such a great way to drive comedy because it's like the humor comes from Penny's exposure to this kind of nonstop nerdy culture. And then conversely, there's also humor that comes from Leonard and Sheldon being exposed to her as like an extroverted socialite kind of person. I thought so. I thought that was an interesting one.
00:20:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's just the whole premise in it, isn't it? In that show. Yeah. I mean, it evolves way beyond that. Obviously there's like a million seasons of it. Yeah. Which does help. But it works with friendships there too, which is nice. Like you have friendships that work, like her and Sheldon are a really nice dynamic, even though they're obviously very opposite. The show basically becomes about her and Sheldon. Yeah, I was going to say, because that's actually a much better written relationship than
TV Shows and Character Relationships
00:21:04
Speaker
it is lately. Yeah, it really is.
00:21:06
Speaker
Probably because the romance actually muddies the water there. I think it makes it weirder. It just takes the tension out of it though because he's lusting after this girl. You know like in Frasier with Niles and Daphne? Love Niles. Yeah, but there was like no tension in the show when they got together after they got together. The show just lost it. It's the same with Penny and Leonard.
00:21:30
Speaker
Yeah. And when there's a real life romance at the same time, that's always difficult. Wasn't it? Yeah. I thought she married a tennis player and then like, uh, she has married a tennis player at one point. Yes. Divorced him like six months later. Here's the tea. This is now a gossip podcast. Totally distracted. Let's get back to princesses marrying Paul, but it's quick. That's the one. Yeah. You guys got any, got any other, any other examples before I move on to platonic?
00:21:57
Speaker
Yes. I thought of that 70s show, you know, with Eric and Donna, because Eric is kind of really scrawny and has basically verbal diarrhoea, but Donna is like strong and confident and kind of a tomboy. And she's just obviously way more dominant and he's quite passive and submissive, I think. Dominant and submissives is where we're going now. Fifty shades, he's rich, she's poor. Oh my gosh, it's there too. Oh my God.
00:22:27
Speaker
And then I thought of Buffy and Spike because she wants to kill the bad guys and he reluctantly has to later on in the series.
00:22:37
Speaker
and he's kind of forced to go along with what she wants. Buffy and Spike are definitely opposites. Yeah, a hundred percent. How much at the time do you think, I mean, this is more with TV because obviously movies usually, the movie usually wraps with the couple getting together and that's kind of towards the end. But with TV, how much do you think like, because Buffy and Spike is a good example and then there's a few other ones as well.
00:22:59
Speaker
Uh, some of these couples actually lose their oppositeness as they go. Onwards, like Buffy and Spike. I think the later that the longer that goes, the more, the less like, um, clashing they have between them because they, they kind of fall into line together. Whereas someone like in Brooklyn nine, nine, I think Amy and Jake don't change. Like Jake is still like silly and goofy and Amy still loves a ring binder.
00:23:28
Speaker
like even when they're married and stuff. Yeah, that's interesting actually because does it matter character-wise if you're going to use opposites to track from a writing perspective? Does it matter if it's different I think in a TV series because the problem is you don't, especially Brooklyn One-Nine, who knows how many series it's ever going to have because it just kind of pops up doesn't it? So maybe that's why they can't change as much. I'm pretty sure it's finished. Well that's the thing, it finishes every six months or so just pops back up. It's finished for now.
00:23:55
Speaker
It's finished for now, exactly. Whereas when you've got like a book or just like a standalone film or something, I think it's a little bit easier to decide to have the character arc that they learn from each other and become the best part. You were saying like filling in the best parts of each other. Yeah. I think it's harder in a TV series.
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah, I guess with a movie or a TV show, like, I mean, Ross and Rachel, the show ends with Ross and Rachel getting together. So you never really have to see, I mean, they have been together at different points on and off. But in a movie, you'll never see them actually having a relationship and working at the relationship.
00:24:32
Speaker
as it ends before you see that, which is kind of like a get out of jail free card, which actually comes into some of the things that I thought were problematic about this. But let's do platonic stuff first, because one of you mentioned that this works in platonic.
Platonic 'Opposites Attract' Examples
00:24:47
Speaker
I can't remember which one. But I had some cool examples for the platonic. I don't know if you guys have seen a movie called The Intouchables, which is a French film.
00:24:55
Speaker
No. It's so good. I honestly recommend anyone watch it. It's about a very rich guy who is in a wheelchair. I think he's mostly paralyzed. I've seen this. He gets like a helper, doesn't he?
00:25:19
Speaker
Exactly, yeah. The people who work for him are trying to show him the different help and they're suggesting different people and they're showing them all these qualifications and stuff. And then it randomly pops up with this one guy who has no qualifications. I think he's been involved in some crimes. He's from a rough part of the town.
00:25:37
Speaker
And he ends up employing him and they're obviously complete opposites. And obviously he doesn't treat him the way that anyone else treats him. And like, so they kind of very quickly become really, really close and like really good friends and then start doing all these things that he's not supposed to be doing and like things like that. And it's just this beautiful like friendship between these two people who are so like opposite ends of the like social cultural spectrum. It's amazing.
00:26:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good film actually. You just remind me a lot about it. It's really heartwarming isn't it? Yeah. And then there's a really weird remake of it with Kevin Hart and Brian Cranston. No. Yeah. And I just thought, why? Why have you done this? That's a really weird duo.
00:26:27
Speaker
Is Brian Cranston the one in the wheelchair? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin Hart would be the comedy relief wouldn't he? Yeah. Okay. I don't think it's played as a comedy. I think they play it straight. Oh, I don't know. I hope he's not playing Kevin Hart in that role. It would be very strange to see him doing his normal stuff in that role.
00:26:44
Speaker
It's the guy who does it in the original film is Omar Tsai, who is in the Jurassic World movies. And he's in, oh my God, Lupin or Lupin. And if you've got to see that on Netflix, the French detective show. Oh, no, I haven't seen that one. He's like a French master thief. Anyway, he's amazing. He's great. Other platonic ones I had.
00:27:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. That's kind of grumpy sunshine as well, isn't it? Did we talk about that grumpy? Well, grumpy sunshine is this, right? Yeah, it feels a little bit, yeah, a lot of crossover. Well, it has to be because grumpy sunshine is opposites. Yeah. So grumpy sunshine is just a subsect of this. So any grumpy sunshine is this.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. By its nature. Yeah. Yeah. So, so if you want to hear more about Grumpy Sanjo, check out our other episode. Nice little plug. And then also Lethal Weapon is an easy one. It's the I'm too old for this.
00:27:39
Speaker
And again, like buddy cop kind of has to be this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're quite opposite. It doesn't always have to be this, but a lot of the time it is this. I think the time when buddy cop isn't, this is when their rivals. Yeah. Um, but a lot of the time it's yeah. Lethal weapon, men in black.
00:27:57
Speaker
So do you think it transcends into the mentor-mentee relationship a little bit? Is that what we're saying? I was thinking that. And then I thought, nah, I can't mention Coffee Bander again. However, what was it? Since Naomi brought it up.
00:28:14
Speaker
I'll allow it, I'll allow it. Yeah, especially the reluctant mentor. Yeah, that's true. I think it's popular in, so I can think now of lots of examples of where it's like two side characters and they're like a double act team. So sort of like Rocket and Groot in Gods of the Galaxy.
00:28:31
Speaker
And obviously he's like the really smart and there's always one that's the muscle and one that's the brains and that's a really common pairing in these things. There's one in the Gone books as well where it's like a really smart kid who actually works at an entire currency system. He keeps getting beaten up so he makes friends with the really big kid that can protect him and they kind of form this duo and they are complete opposites.
00:28:53
Speaker
And you sometimes, as, because they're always side characters, you think, what do these people even talk about behind closed doors? But they just seem to work and they have like this way of understanding each other. They fill in each other's blanks. That's, um, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm in the Fantastic Four. Like their backstory is that at school he was really nerdy and Ben Grimm was big and like quiet. Yeah. I'm just thinking of Hamish and Effie as well in The Hunger Games. Yeah. Hamish. It's not Hamish. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hamish. Because they're not romantic in the books.
00:29:22
Speaker
No. They're not romantic in the movies are they? They try and like wedge it in to the final fourth hour of the final week of the web. Hamish's character arc was getting sober rather than...
00:29:40
Speaker
I feel like that's enough of an arc. There's enough within that. That can be such a deep multifaceted journey that you don't need to also tag a romance onto that. Exactly. Also dangerous territory to tag a romance onto that because it's like, what's going on here? Not that it's necessarily bad, but it could be a weird... It could be quite unhealthy.
00:30:02
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Like, is this like a saviour complex thing? Yeah. I mean, in the movie, don't they imprison Effie? It's a bit weird. I think she's like, keep that boat and bring it to a district 13 district. Yeah, say like, you can come out your room, by the way, and she's like...
00:30:23
Speaker
You're not a prisoner here. You're not a prisoner of that room. You're just the entire complex. Um, well, speaking of, since we're on problematic stuff, did you guys, did you guys think there's any sort of problematic things that come up can come around, uh, with this?
Downsides of 'Opposites Attract': Self-Change
00:30:47
Speaker
I didn't really think of any. Did you know me? No, so I was about to say I'll be curious to hear what you got to say because I couldn't really think of anything. I thought it was just good writing, to be honest. I love it. It's just good business. One thing I did think of, and this is, I've deliberately not mentioned this because I thought I'd save it for, because it's pretty, as far as the chart goes, I'm like, yeah, whatever, it's like the others. But I thought it was more interesting as a potential problematic thing.
00:31:14
Speaker
Is when one person has sort of tries to change the way that they are the way they look to meet the expectations of the other person and I think I think it can be find that you can do this and make it work because a lot of times it's played off as like a funny mistake where they like
00:31:32
Speaker
They both do the thing and then they're like the reveal and they're both like meeting each other halfway and you're like, oh, it's cute blah, blah, blah. But I thought there's one where it kind of toes the line and that's Greece with Dan and Sandy. Right. So unhealthy.
00:31:48
Speaker
Because, yeah, you get to that end point and like, Sandy has obviously like, she's like, I'm going all out. I'm she's, she's like sprayed trousers onto her legs. She's, she's got the jacket. She's got the cigarette. Yeah, it's all done. She's literally gone all out to get down. And granted he, it's already been established at this point that he's aware of his feelings for how he's accepted them. And he does want to like, um, try and like meet her slightly. Not how it's not, it's nowhere near halfway, but he like puts on a letterman cardigan.
00:32:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's not the same at all, is it? Right. Because that's it. The rest of his clothes are the same. And also he ditches that cardigan within seconds of seeing Sandy. Yes, absolutely. And just accepts her. Yeah. Right. Which is, which is even worse. It's even worse that he ditches it because it's sort of like him in his brain going, oh, well, she's jumped over to my side, so I don't need to be halfway through. Yeah. Which I think is problematic.
00:32:42
Speaker
And you're not you're not growing that I think also when it's platonic as we were talking about and especially when it's the thing of like the smart nerdy person and the big tank. I feel like that can really be used. They usually the smart person is using the person who is big and strong.
00:32:58
Speaker
So like in the Gone series of books by Michael Grant, this one where it's Albert and Howard and Albert's the one that's like really smart and comes up with a currency and stuff. He is quite clearly using Howard. Like some of the things he thinks about Howard because it's multi point of view, you're like, oh, you're right, but that's a bit rough. And I think sometimes they obviously try and be better about it in say,
00:33:19
Speaker
God is of the galaxy, but sometimes Rocket, especially earlier on in the film, does use Groot and people are asking, oh, is Groot okay? He's fine. He's just here to be the tree guy. He's just a tree. And I know that obviously deep down he likes him, but I think it can be a bit of a power struggle and sometimes it can be using another character.
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah, but in the defense of Guardians of the Galaxy, I would say that Rocket is not exactly portrayed as like a pillar of virtue. What do you mean? Yeah, I think they balance that out by being like Rocket is Rocket can also be very defensive over group when someone other than him is like, yeah, that's definitely make it better as well as the thing goes on. And he definitely reveals his feelings a little bit more. But yeah,
00:34:05
Speaker
I think that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Although, I mean, you could always, you could also make the argument that it's like, oh, the big strong character is using the intelligent person because it's like, can't be bothered to think of stuff. I'll just let them do all the hard work. Can you use, what if you're not smart enough to think of it? Cause they're usually pretty dumb, the big character. That sounds like a D and D character creation paradox. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Roll for intelligence too.
00:34:33
Speaker
And then on as an expansion of that, I think there's also a risk of with this trope.
Controlling Behavior as Romance?
00:34:40
Speaker
And this is the same with if you're writing any kind of romance, this is always a danger to think of is the risk of romanticizing toxic traits. So like controlling or
00:34:49
Speaker
manipulative actions like we're saying with Rocket. And then portraying those as, well, not romantic in Rocket's case, but romantic or attractive. 50 Shades does that though. 50 Shades is opposites, but obviously the opposites are so weird and there's literally a contract to show how opposite they are and to keep the other person down and keep the submissive like down. Let's not go too far. She signed it. Did she ever sign it? I don't think she does, yeah.
00:35:17
Speaker
It's like a point. He's like to hell with the contract. She never signs it. Well, I was thinking of Twilight, but I think Fifty Shades is better.
00:35:29
Speaker
It is a fan fiction of Twilight to be fair. True, true. We'll go to the source. Because Twilight is opposite attract, like in a triangle, which is kind of interesting because obviously Jake is supposed to be the opposite of Edward, forgot his name for a sec. Which is hilarious because they're both extremely controlling and manipulative.
00:35:55
Speaker
They're just in very different ways. Yeah, but one's hot and one's cold, all right? Yeah. So they're opposites. They're different people, you know? Different personality traits. If we're going to go for some more classic literature, Weathering Heights, Heathcliff and Catherine are very cruel and manipulative towards each other, but
00:36:20
Speaker
that is played off as romantic and like, oh, it's just part of the courtship. And again, Heathcliff is really poor and I think Catherine's okay. Okay, well, it's been enlightening how much wealth divide comes into this trope. Yeah, that's really interesting. That's like a worrying social construct, isn't it? It really is. Oh no, the opposite's because I'm rich and you're poor.
00:36:48
Speaker
I don't like that. I don't know how that makes me feel. Yeah, it's not the best, especially when it's the one thing what my dad thought off from the one book he's ever read. And it appears to be true for every book. It does appear to be true. Yeah, your dad's got something there.
00:37:02
Speaker
I would also say there's a huge leaning and this is obviously weighted by Disney, but there's a huge leaning towards the female character being the wealthy one and the prim sort of proper one and the male character being the ragamuffin and the person in the streets.
Gender Roles and Societal Constructs
00:37:21
Speaker
A bit rough. So I actually think there's like a leaning towards the woman being the crazy zany one.
00:37:31
Speaker
Like you see that in Anna in Frozen, Bridget Jones, but yeah, the female character had been a kind of zany one. And then the guy coming in being the more serious type. I don't know. I don't know. It's a little bit toxic. Yeah. Um, cause even if you go back to Pride and Prejudice for the time, she's the world one. Yeah. Sound of music.
00:37:59
Speaker
She's so crazy playing that guitar when she's supposed to be a nun.
00:38:03
Speaker
Wild. But then you do get ones like The Breakfast Club, where he's the rebel. I don't know though. Because it feels like, it feels, I tell you what it feels like, it feels generational. Yes. It feels like the older ones, yes. And then there was a stage through like the 70s, through to the 90s, where it was always the male character was the like, was the the poor Street Urchin Aladdin type character. And the female was always the princess.
00:38:33
Speaker
I don't think I necessarily mean princess and pauper, I just mean generally women are portrayed as kind of wild and almost need to be, I don't know.
00:38:48
Speaker
Do you think it's because, um, and if we're talking in, we're talking eras as well, like seventies through to like 2000s, strong male characters, but always like emotionless, broody, like bad boys. And then you, the only way you can write an interesting story there is if the, then the, the, the character offsetting them is like a bit wacky and like fun and bubbly. Yeah. Yeah, possibly.
00:39:18
Speaker
Cause you, yeah, you can't have, you can't just have two like. It'd be a really boring book. It would be Twilight. Yeah. Yeah. Where everyone's broody. God, who's the comic relief in Twilight? That's a great, Emmett. Emmett, no. Um, who's her friend at school, the one he fancy? Oh, Anna Kendrick. No, Mike, Mike, Mike. She works with him in the books to be fair. He's a bigger character. Yeah. Right.
00:39:49
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you guys think
Writing with 'Opposites Attract' vs. 'Enemies to Lovers'
00:39:51
Speaker
though? Would you, I mean, would you actively write this or would this just be something that you think would accidentally you'd be like, Oh yeah, I guess this does fit to that trope. I think I've probably done it by accident. Um, cause up until now I thought it was enemies to lovers. Yeah, but I think it's really good. Um, and I'm super into the X-Files at the moment, so I'm, I'm loving it. So I definitely write it more purposefully, I think. I like that. Agree.
00:40:18
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's, it feels, it's just a less, it's kind of a less direct version of enemies to lovers, right? Right. Yeah. It's less like chained down and focused on a specific thing. It's more just, I, again, I think it is just, it's just good character conflict. It's, um, yeah, it's just good writing. Yeah. It's like we said, like, you know, grumpy and sunshine is always going to be this. It's the same thing. Grumpy and sunshine is just a fun way to mix your characters together. This is just another, you know, different iterations of doing that same thing. Yeah. It's a thumbs up from me. I agree.
00:40:48
Speaker
Well, that's that then, isn't it?