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S3.E3 - Romantasy Tropes
97 Plays8 months ago
Continuing the theme of the season, this episode we each pick a romantasy trope! If you want a deeper dive on each of these we did an entire 10 run season dedicated to romantasy.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Toxic Characters: Love and Hate
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is different characters? Whoa! You had it here first! I'm sort of finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters, like she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is, this is my Malfoy Hermione family. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
Romanticy Genre and Tropes
00:00:34
Speaker
Okay, let's get into it then. So we are on the trend of, um, after the first episode of this series, where we talked about all of the trends that are going to come out in this year. And we involve the lovely people over at the white right mental hub. Um, we are going each episode, focusing on one of the genres that we talked about. And this episode we're doing romanticy.
00:00:58
Speaker
So I'm going to kick off by choosing what is my favorite and what I think is probably the the the number one like go to I would say for most romanticy is enemies to lovers. Yes. I was really annoyed you picked it because I wanted to do that one.
00:01:18
Speaker
Well, that's why, that's why I immediately like, because it's the best one. I also think this is one that whilst it's very, very popular within the romantic genre, I think it's, it works in all genres as well. Like it's a really satisfying thing and it's not, it's not like it's a new thing either. You go back to like Pride and Prejudice, obviously Jane Austen.
00:01:42
Speaker
like most tropes invented it pretty much or popularized it and like Beauty and the Beast, old school stuff.
Enemies to Lovers: Variations and Examples
00:01:52
Speaker
I think it's, I love it as a trope, but people often get in the weeds with it, with like enemies to lovers is the sort of meta genre, I would say. And then people sometimes get into semantics where they say like, no, that's actually haters to lovers and that's actually rivals to lovers.
00:02:09
Speaker
Oh yeah, there are a lot of such sub-genres. Yeah and I was trying to kind of define, I was trying to find more examples of those kinds of ones where it's, I think that you can call all of them enemies to lovers because it's like what, how do you define enemy? But something for haters to lovers I had something like, for me it's more like a kind of milder
00:02:31
Speaker
original, um, conflict unit. So like, uh, the proposal, one of Melissa's favorites, uh, where it's, uh, Ryan Reynolds and his boss, and they like have like a, like a not good work relationship, which then becomes romance. I think that's more like haters to lovers, like to call them enemies, which seems a bit odd.
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think maybe because it's not a fantasy. I don't know. Like, I know you were saying it works across different genres. Sorry, I'm like totally interrupting. But I think because it's not fantasy to say enemy in real life. Yeah. It feels hilarious. She does treat him really badly though. Like, she does. She's terrific. That's why we love her.
00:03:18
Speaker
But that's why they also can't be, they're definitely not rivals because she's clearly in a position of power over him. And that's a whole other problematic discussion that we probably, we know what the issue is about. And we talked about that as well. If anyone wanted a real deep dive into this genre in season two, episode two, we did a whole hour long episode about romanticism specifically.
Romantic Dynamics in Media
00:03:41
Speaker
But it's funny you say, because maybe because it's not in fantasy. The other one I had for Haters to Lovers was Stardust.
00:03:48
Speaker
Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, because they're not enemies at all, really. They have no, I mean, sure, he does want to give her as a gift to someone else, but like, there's no predetermined sort of like enemies thing. But then I guess, again, it's the semantics because you're like, well, he's effectively imprisoned her and forced and kind of coercing her to do this thing. A healthy relationship.
00:04:13
Speaker
They do make a deal where he's like, yeah, if you do this, then I'll send you. Yeah. You kind of hold the carrot. Like, in it together.
00:04:21
Speaker
Yeah, but it's not like, yeah, for me, I was like, is that haters to lovers? Because it's less intense, you know, it comes from a place of more kind of, they're friendly. And then rivals to lovers, I was like, this is often workplace, like the hating game. Yeah, yeah. It's a classic one. They did in Bridgerton, I would have said they do it because it's a sort of,
00:04:44
Speaker
a lot that they are like social rivals. Yeah. Because the whole thing's about class and things like that. So it's about, and then a lot of them end up not liking each other because of like what family they're from or where they're from. And it is competitive, like a workplace. Yeah. Yeah. Like a work, whatever it's their job. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously academic, dark academia loves this.
00:05:08
Speaker
That's it, yeah, Dark Academia is great for that kind of little subgenre. I recently read a study in Drowning and that's survivors to lovers, where they're both sort of studying this literary hero for alternate reasons, like the girl's like a massive fan and the guy's like out to preview the fraud basically.
Rivals to Lovers: Academic Twist
00:05:25
Speaker
they're working together like sort of forced together and then it's a really good little dynamic and and eventually comes lovers. Yeah that's a really good example because like the rivalry it becomes like a fun thing like never have I ever similar in that they're both like academic rivals at school they both want to get similar colleges and stuff but they know their school doesn't have that many applications from those colleges and you know what colleges are like they like takes it and
00:05:52
Speaker
from certain types of schools. So they're always in an academic rivalry, but it's always like with a bit of a smirk and they're kind of loving it. Like the rivalry turns them on and that's what makes it robustly. Like they love it.
00:06:04
Speaker
That's where you get the best like, um, you get like sort of fiery chemistry between people because it's like, when you have like, uh, like lovers to lovers, I guess, or like friends to lovers, they, they're sort of like a tiptoeing around the feelings and stuff, but with rivals and enemies to lovers, it's always like, they just say what they mean and they'll be mean to each other. And it's funny. Yeah. Just say what's on your mind. Yeah, exactly. And it always comes almost always comes hand in hand with forced proximity.
00:06:34
Speaker
Because it's like, you need a reason for these two people who don't like each other. To actually work together. He would usually kill each other. It's the kiss or kill thing, isn't it? It's like, they're so ambitious, they'll either kill each other or kiss each other. Another one I had for Robots to Lovers, which I mean, and I know the series just came out, I haven't watched the series and it was a long time since I read the books, but in Percy Jackson, I think Percy and Annabeth
00:06:59
Speaker
start out spoilers for like many, many books of the very slow burn romance of these two across many, many books. But Percy and Annabeth start out as rivals because he is the son of Poseidon and she's the son of Athena, I think, and they're parents of massive rivals.
00:07:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's always a good one. Actually, that's done a lot where it's like the parents. Well, it's like Romeo and Juliet. If their parents are rivals, then they're expected to be rivals type thing. Yeah, that's a good one as well for like sending the message of like, you know, you can change the status quo. You know, this is what it used to be like, but there's that you children have nothing against each other. This was like an argument that your parents had.
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. But it's a great trope. I always like it, almost always when I see it and stuff. For me, it's more interesting to see people sort of go against their preconceived notions and then end up letting someone unexpected into their life.
Reality vs. Fiction: Romantic Tropes Critique
00:08:07
Speaker
with the proposal, it has its problems. I mean, like all tropes, all tropes can be executed well, all tropes can get executed badly. Things that often come up with this one,
00:08:19
Speaker
unrealistic expectations for people and relationships. And then alongside that, it's like the normalization of toxic behaviors and, uh, ignoring red flags. So like the, a really good example I had was 10 things I hate about you, which is, which kind of justifies itself with this sort of end justifies the means it's like, Oh, but the ended up happy in the end. So this is all fine. Um, and, but like Justin, uh, the original by Shakespeare and she's all that.
00:08:52
Speaker
the initial courtship starts out as like a deal or a bet or like a challenge. And despite almost always the woman involved has like given multiple rejections. And despite that, the man is not backing down. And like, that's so, that's like not a realistic or healthy way to pursue any romantic interest. It's like, wait, that's not? Oh, no.
00:09:13
Speaker
People love Taming of the Shrew.
00:09:22
Speaker
I shouldn't emulate movies. Yeah, exactly. But that's the kind of thing where I'm like, yeah, you might have enjoyed the movie, but when you look back at it, it's like, yeah, it's not great. It's not a great message to be sending to young, impressionable people. They haven't aged well, have they? No. And in Shakespeare's defense, it's aged a lot longer, like less defendable than the movies.
Plot Adaptations for Series Longevity
00:09:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. They didn't know about it.
00:09:52
Speaker
Um, but I think when the trip works well is when characters, um, learn from their mistakes. And this is like almost any story, conclusion or arc for a character. When the characters learn from their mistakes and evolve into better people because of the clash between each other. And then the most important thing is that they are rewarded for their growth and not their persistence.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah. That makes sense. Like something fundamentally has changed. Exactly. Yeah. And that's still like, when I say like persistence, I'm sort of thinking still about 10 things I hate about you. It's like, you shouldn't reward, they shouldn't be, the men shouldn't be rewarded for the relationship because they refuse to give up despite being told to go away several times. Yes.
00:10:42
Speaker
No means yes Jamie, didn't you know? Yeah, sorry. It's really confusing. Yeah, anything else you guys had to add to enemies to lovers? I don't think so. I think you covered pretty much everything. The thing is, it's a massive topic, as you were saying. Yeah. I think like in terms of specifically romanticy, what I do think is interesting is, as you say, when they get to the end and they've come together, there's usually like five more books.
00:11:09
Speaker
And what's fun about Enemies to Lovers is the fireiness of that romance does mean they can break up and kind of get back together again several times. Yeah, that's true. And introduce spicy scenes for when they make friends again. And that it does make it more fun. So it is massively, specifically romantically geared towards a series. It does make it, I think when you've got a romance that goes on for a long time, a bit like a Ross and Rachel in Friends type scenario, you can't let them get together too early, right? So you gotta keep explaining them out.
00:11:36
Speaker
And if they're enemies to lovers, they have lots of tension between them and things they disagree on. So it's easier to do that. Yeah, true. Yeah. Cause you can throw something totally external into the relationships and that doesn't feel as bad. Yeah.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I get that. The one shout out I did want to make to what could have been one of the greatest all-time enemies to lovers of never happened is if Hermione and a post-redemption arch Malfoy had got together. Oh, well, if everyone wants to read Manacald on
00:12:12
Speaker
the whole fanfic that's doing the rounds all over TikTok. Very healthy relationship. He literally is all of the negative things that he hates everything about Hermione and it just would have been such a good full circle moment for his character.
00:12:28
Speaker
It would, if it was YA all the way through. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Star-Crossed Lovers: Fate and Challenges
00:12:33
Speaker
100%. I don't know if she would have had a good time. I never got the wrong things. Yeah. The wrong thing is maybe Hermione could have just been on her own. I wonder if when it was being written, she, like the goal was just like, it was too obvious that she would end up with Harry. And so it was like, whatever, just she would just end up with Ron.
00:12:57
Speaker
I think it was so Ron would end up with someone because if you stop playing the game on Boys and Girls and that there are apparently only Dumbledore in retrospect that's gay and Harry Potter, quote unquote, then obviously Harry has to end up with Ginny because Ginny can't be with her own brother. If you stop playing the musical chairs games, who's left at the end of the party when the lights come up? Ron is struggling.
00:13:18
Speaker
So I actually think Harry and Ginny make sense because Harry doesn't have a family and he wants a family and he's always felt part of the Weasley's, so him ending up with Ginny. That's fine, but Hermione Ron doesn't make sense. Made it official.
00:13:36
Speaker
I mean, the only thing I ever, like I always wondered about with that, Harry basically lived with the Weasley's and it was always, it's always made out that the Weasley's are kind of like barely making ends meet. And Harry's just sitting there with a fortune. Loads of money. Not offering them anything.
00:13:55
Speaker
And it does make sense as well because apparently Ginny is more in the book so it's not really said in the films but Ginny is the seventh child and a girl and in the Weasley family there's like sevens a magic number and the women are more powerful or something so she's a very very very powerful witch. Sevens.
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think she is. She's not the sixth, she's the seventh. There's two oldest ones, and then there's the twins, and then there's Ron. There's Bill and Charlie, there's Percy, there's the twins, that's five, there's Ron, that's six, and then there's her. Oh yeah, I forgot there were two older ones.
00:14:36
Speaker
Okay, great. I'm glad we settled that really on topic. You never really meet Phil. Charlie, sorry. Naimi, what trope have you gone with? So I went with Starcross Lovers and I got really confused over this. Originally, I thought this was like where they're destined to be together.
00:15:01
Speaker
And sort of a little bit like fated mates, but actually it's entirely opposite where fate has intervened and the couple can't be together for various reasons.
00:15:12
Speaker
So I went on a little education spree this morning before our podcast. So the most famous one I think we've already touched on is probably Romeo and Juliet where you've got this big family rivalry and warring parents and these two kids are just sort of stuck in the middle of it and it doesn't really mean a thing to them, the rivalry, they're just two kids who
00:15:31
Speaker
fell in there. It got me thinking about modern examples and the Hunger Games came to mind. I never really understood why they were calling themselves star-crossed lovers because they could be together, they are together. Then I was like, oh no wait, it's because they can't be together because one of them is obviously going to die in the arena.
00:15:55
Speaker
This whole trope makes so much more sense to me now. Every day is a school day, isn't it really? They go meta with it, right? Yeah, they do. Yeah, absolutely. Shapes being confirmed in universe. They actually say it.
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah, they actually do say it. Yeah. Like, here's our trope. So it got me thinking about things where other people are sort of one of them destined to die with other couples. And I thought about the time traveler's wife where, have you guys read that or seen it? That was a book that like meant a lot to me when I was a teenager. And like Henry is obviously he can't control it. So he's like continually disappearing.
00:16:42
Speaker
They can't really have a real relationship together. And then all of a sudden he realizes he's only going forward and back so many years. Like he never sees, he never really sees Claire when she's really old because obviously he dies before he reaches, before he gets to see her that age. So that's kind of another one. That's quite a bittersweet book. And then I found another one, The Fault in Our Stars. Cause I can't remember the characters. Which again is pretty on the note.
00:17:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, but I can't think of the guy's name, but yeah, he's basically August spoiler alert. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. That's testing me. I walked to remember, right?
00:17:27
Speaker
walk to remember. Gosh, what? No, I don't know that one. Oh my goodness. There are some issues I will admit, but yes, that's unlocked a childhood memory. That's a similar kind of thing to... Yeah, she's not very well to not do too many spoilers and they like force together
00:17:49
Speaker
in drama class because he's been naughty. So obviously his punishment is to be the lead in the school play, not annoying anyone at all. And she's the other lead. And she's of course, super down because she wears glasses and sometimes doesn't wash her hair. Actually, she's dying. And so they might put together a bucket list together. But they can't be together because they're falling in love during the bucket list, Naomi, but they can't be together.
00:18:14
Speaker
It is very sad. It's quite sad. Yeah, I think I'm kind of glad I haven't seen it. And then she's cured the end. We have many children and many years together.
00:18:29
Speaker
Don't worry. That's the happy ever after we knew, Melover. Wouldn't make them star-crossed lovers though. Yeah. Star-crossed lovers doesn't really do happily ever after. It does have dark endings. That's so true, actually. Yeah. That's basically the conclusion I've come to. Oh no. Like Titanic is star-crossed lovers. Yeah, definitely. The class divide type thing.
00:18:54
Speaker
Um, Moulon Rouge, same thing. Moulon Rouge should be one. Yeah. Moulon Rouge. That's a good one. This is such an old trope. Cause like, this is like, um, Lance Long, Gwynevere, Pyramus and Thespi. Like this is like classic Greek age trope.
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah, people can't be. I think though, what's good about it is you're right, it's usually a sad ending. So I think if you can circumvent and find a way, like at the end of the first Hunger Games, again, I'm not even going to say spoilers because it's more than five years old. They obviously don't both die.
00:19:26
Speaker
and they could be together because they find a loophole. And it is something that really like propels the plot because you really want them to be together and you're trying to outthink the author as you're reading like, how are they going to get out of this? Like how are they going to be together? And sometimes they're not and it's really sad, but other times they do manage it. And that's always quite like a, it's always like quite an exciting moment, especially if the author's like outdone you and you're like, oh, that's so clever. Like they've come out of the way.
00:19:53
Speaker
Another one that actually has some sort of a semi-happy ending was The Binding. I love that book. I know you don't like that book. But that's got a class divide in it between two men. And that's obviously frowned upon in itself in the books. But one of them is significantly poorer than the other. And the rich boy is kind of expected to marry a woman and do the correct aristocratic thing and have a family. So there's all this sort of
00:20:22
Speaker
you know, that's the reason they're star-crossed. They can't really be together in a society that's like that, but they end up finding a way. And it's kind of like at the end of it, you're kind of like, gosh, they have been through a wringer here, but they are together at the end. And so it's not like the best ending, but it does have like a ray of hope.
00:20:45
Speaker
at the end, which I think is quite rare for star cross lovers. I think a ray of hope because it's very, I have read it for book club, it's very Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind-esque type plot. Yeah. I was sort of learning about their relationship at the same time as them because for various reasons, I will not spoil the binding, for various reasons, they can't remember being together and you're like discovering it, aren't you? Similar to, and you're thinking, how did this go so wrong? And that's like quite a fun storytelling element. Yeah.
00:21:14
Speaker
So Star Wars Lovers is a lot like forbidden love trope except for, but like almost without the happy ever after. I guess so. Oh dear. The other ones that I've got on my list are Atonement and it's definitely not a happy ending. Yeah, that's not happy either. It's a small spoiler, but come on, it's called Atonement.
00:21:42
Speaker
I know. And then weathering heights. I think everyone, that's not really that happy. So it's not the happiest. No, no. There you go. Yeah. So that's a list of the binding, isn't it? Um, although not with a happy ending. I also had, um, I was thinking about this, uh, La La Land.
00:22:08
Speaker
Oh, I hate that movie. Yes. It's like Lao Land is like a star cross lovers, but like because it is because of their, the direction that they want to go in. Yeah. It's like growing up. It's like a bit of a building's Roman, isn't it? It's like as they grow up and realize what they want to do, that their paths do not align, do they? Yeah. No, no. It's, I guess that's as close as you can get to not having a happy ending, but having like a contented ending.
00:22:37
Speaker
It's not contented. No, I disagree. Like Ryan Gosling sat there at his piano playing his little heart out. He's never going to get the girl. It's so sad. Oh, poor Ryan Gosling. Poor Ryan Gosling. It's horrible. What a waste of time. Oh my God, Barbie. Barbie is star-crossed lovers.
00:23:02
Speaker
I suppose once they enter the real world, they become star-crossed lovers. Isn't Barbie a problem? She never likes her. She just doesn't like Kenya, isn't that part of the problem?
Fated Mates: Destiny and Agency
00:23:13
Speaker
Yeah. A bit like in some ways, I guess the Hunger Games is that especially the first book, she does not like Peter. Like she's like, she's not about that bread boy life. She's not keen. Awesome. Anything else to add?
00:23:36
Speaker
No, I think that was it really for Starcross Lovers. That was great. Sad. Very sad. Yeah, sorry everyone. I was looking things up about Starcross Lovers and I also had to be like, let me just google the definition real quick. Yes, just make sure I've got it right. I think a lot of people use Starcross Lovers incorrectly, almost to me the opposite of what it actually means. Yeah, I think they do. I did until yesterday.
00:24:05
Speaker
basically what Melissa has chosen. And Melissa, what is your trope? My trope is fated mates because I have a book coming out and I'm using this often to talk about it. So I talk about this in soul mates and other ways to die. So yeah, I'm talking basically about soul mates, people who are destined to be together. And I think especially in romanticy,
00:24:29
Speaker
This comes up a lot, so I've just read. I've just read fourth wing, everyone. Yeah, so there's a lot of dragons, there's a lot of sex, and there's a lot of fated mates. So essentially, people will know, and this isn't even a story spoiler, but the fated mates in that are.
00:24:47
Speaker
that it's enemies to lovers as well and i think this happens quite a lot in fated mates so in soul mates they are enemies to lovers zoe and milo are complete opposites she's a prepper doomsday prep who's very very careful all the time and he is a daredevil who's like if we're all going to die anyway then i might as well do whatever i want right now
00:25:04
Speaker
And the plot is that your soulmate, if they die, you die and vice versa. So that's why Zoe is very careful and she's very nervous her soulmate is going to be a daredevil. And of course he is. He's not very careful. And they have to learn to accept each other's lifestyles and be more careful and but also explore life more.
00:25:20
Speaker
So it's like coming together and exploring different types of love and stuff like that, especially when people, you can prove scientifically certain types of people are supposed to be together. So it explores like gay love, it explores trans love, it explores non-binary love, it explores polyamorous love, like all these different things that we're coming to, being a soulmate.
00:25:41
Speaker
So I had real fun exploring that trope. Do you know what? It's not a trope I would usually particularly gravitate to, but I did enjoy exploring what it means to have a fated mate. So the way that Rebecca Eros does it is, um, it's dragon school. If anyone doesn't know about fourth wing, if you've been living under a rock, it's dragon school. And, um, at the dragon school, your dragon chooses you. You don't choose your dragon. It's almost like a wand. And, uh, when they dragons choose them.
00:26:10
Speaker
And I'm being very mean. It was actually like weirdly enjoyable. I did speed through it, so I don't know why I'm being so mean about it. I am the person who watched My Life with the Walter Boys, so I don't know why I'm pretending out of any taste at all. But yeah, so they all get Dragon and of course the two enemies, the two people who
00:26:27
Speaker
his father is responsible for killing her brother and her mother's responsible for killing his father. So they really are star-crossed. They're also really mean to each other for no particular reason but of course they're both really, really fit and so they really fancy each other but they shouldn't. And then one day they have to get their dragons chosen and of course the dragon that chooses Violet, the main character, is the dragon that's mated with his dragon.
00:26:51
Speaker
So there are many scenes where when the two dragons are bumping uglies, both Violet and Zayden feel very attracted to each other because they can go in the mind of their dragon. So they are super fated to be together. And they can't be apart from each other, so it has that as well. Apparently two dragons that have mated can't be too far apart for too many even days.
00:27:12
Speaker
So they have to be like stationed together everywhere, but they're both like really drawn towards each other. And so there's like lots and lots of parts of the magical system that's like really pushing them together. So they are super fated. So it's not necessarily like soulmates, like in my book, but it is like definitely fated mates. There's no way around it. There's no way they try and introduce another character that she's been friends with since childhood. Like look, it might be friends to lovers, but it's so clearly not friends to lovers.
00:27:38
Speaker
Like, nothing's happening with Dane. You've read it. If you know, you know. Nothing's happening with this guy. It's obviously all about Violet and Zayden. Yeah, because they are. The way that she writes these dragons choosing to...
00:27:54
Speaker
have sexual relations and that makes them want to have sexual relations is bizarre. I've never anything like it, but it's weirdly kind of clever because I'm like, okay, yeah, of course they would want to even in a life or death situation when they shouldn't be together because they can be in the mind of their dragons. So it totally makes sense in a way. That was my, that was my major example that I've read recently, but I think it does come up a lot fated mates.
00:28:18
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It comes up in basically every animated Disney movie from the 20th century. Every single one. I'm pretty sure. I was going to say everyone? Everyone. I'm trying to think of like, cause I was thinking like even like the Lion King and stuff, he's always fated to be with her. Yeah. She's like the prince. I mean, he's the prince and she's the princess. Yeah.
00:28:46
Speaker
of the Lion King. Yeah, so I guess that would be fainting. I think the prince and princessing, especially romanticy, is like a very popular one. Like you're supposed to be with this person. The swan princess is like that. And that involves also enemies. I think enemies to lovers folds in really nicely with fated mates, because they have to be together. And if you don't want a sad ending, like Naomi's trope, you know that they have to be together because they're not allowed to be together, if that makes sense. So it kind of
00:29:12
Speaker
So like, they hate each other, but they're fated to be together, like in the Swan Princess, the animated film. Yeah, so you know they will eventually be together. Yeah, they hate each other because Derek only cares about Adette's looks and she says, what else is there? And he says, I don't know. And she's like, oh my God, I hate you.
00:29:28
Speaker
Which I was like, that's a bit harsh. She's not very bright. Give him a chance. And then she gets turned into a swan. So, you know, chokes on her for being a feminist. She got married to the prince. But yes, then, of course, they go through this whole thing where he tries to save her and he feels terrible for years and they get together. But they're obviously fated because they need to unite the two kingdoms. And I think that's quite common. Call me crazy. But that sounds like a shit start to a relationship.
00:29:57
Speaker
What do you mean? It's totally healthy and fine. She hates him, gets turned into a swan, and then he's the only one trying to rescue her. He feels so guilty. He has to go rescue her. He spends the next 10 years trying to rescue her. Everyone else thinks she's dead. That's why all these stories end when the main characters get together, so you don't have to see them actually being in a proper relationship.
00:30:20
Speaker
Yes, because how would it work? I can already see in fourth wing, because it's a series, you know, we were talking about they like to split them up and bring them back together. They get together quite late in the book, actually, it's a very long book, I think it's like 600 pages or so. And it's only after page 500, they actually get together for the first time. And they're already like near the end of the book.
00:30:41
Speaker
finding a reason to split them up. I won't say why, but there's like a secret and they're trying to find a way to split them up again. And I'm like, yeah, this makes sense because I know fourth wing is going to be a series and the second one's already out. So that makes sense. But of course they have to be together because of their dragons. So I think it's interesting when they bring it into the actual magical system is quite interesting. Like, no, no, they have to be together because of the magic system I have created. I'm like, all right, I see. I see where it's going. Very dramatic.
00:31:09
Speaker
What about when, what about in Twilight? Yeah, I'm thinking Twilight as well. In printing. Yeah. Oh gosh, yeah, of course. Yeah, that's very true. So problematic. Jacob falling in love with the child. That's right. They do try and explain. I'm going to try. I know I'm going to play devil's advocate. So obviously if anyone has not read the book, it is confusing in the film because they do not have enough time to explain it. And I understand that that happens quite a lot in films.
00:31:34
Speaker
And in the book, they do try and explain because my main problem actually, weirdly, wasn't that it was a child, which really should have been my main problem. So I don't know what's wrong with me. But my main problem was that why are we forced? What if she doesn't like Jacob? What if she grows up? Because he says he can pause his aging. Yeah, she's got no choice. Exactly. So he says in the book, he can pause his aging until she gets old enough. And then they can be together. But what bugged me was that. And in the book, they say, oh, it's OK that I'm in love with a baby.
00:32:02
Speaker
And that also I can pause my aging until she gets old enough because we are whatever they need us to be. I think they say it very briefly in the film. Yeah. Brother, lover, friend or something. It's like weird voices. It's not, um, yeah. Don't say those things as if they're like optional, like lover. No, I will be in her life.
00:32:25
Speaker
some capacity. Yeah, they are, you're right, they are fated, but it is very creepy. I think the problem as well is because we're not, you do get Jacob's point of view in the third book, or is it the last book? You get his point of view randomly in one of the books, but because you don't generally speak and get his point of view, it makes it weirder, the magic system of how they're fated mates, because we're not really seeing his point of view on it.
00:32:51
Speaker
So he says the reason that he was interested in Bella was because he was actually interested in her future daughter. So literally like an egg. Yeah, that's the explanation we're given. But I'd love, in fact, you know what, I bet this fan fiction's online. I'd love to find it. The one where she grows up. Imagine growing up and you've got like a really nice boyfriend and you love him so much and then you find out he was in love with your mum. Excuse me. Excuse me.
00:33:22
Speaker
This is the problem. This trope can get really problematic really quickly. I see it a lot in erotica where the man imprints on the woman will just go with that word and she is not interested and he doggedly follows her because he knows that they're fated and they're meant to be together.
00:33:44
Speaker
Um, and he basically wears her down over time until
Sci-Fi and Fantasy: Fate Connections
00:33:47
Speaker
she agrees. It's like, this is my problem. Yeah, this is the problem because obviously the problem is that's Joe Goldberg.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah, that is. Wearing them down. This is the problem. It's the choice thing, isn't it? When it's fated, is there a choice? This is what I wrote about soulmates, just to bring it back to me, everyone. I was exploring if you are fated to be with somebody and they're your soulmate. The general idea, obviously, is that they're your soulmate because you would want to be with them.
00:34:16
Speaker
like your soulmate is the person out there that of course you'd want to be with but I was exploring the idea of like what if you didn't want to be with them how would that work and obviously as I say like my two main characters hate each other at first and there is an attraction because I think there has to be if you're saying it's a soulmate and you're saying it's a soulmate in that way in a romantic way there has to be some attraction but they do not like each other to begin with the idea I
00:34:39
Speaker
Like put through with their relationship is that through knowing each other they become each other soulmates Like through learning from each other Mm-hmm. However it you're totally right when it's an imprinting thing and this so this is more like dystopian sci-fi and there's like a gene that tells you it knows which sort of personality type essentially you would match up with eventually
00:35:02
Speaker
And the problem with fantasy, of course, is if it's a magic system where it's like, this is the magic they have imprinted on this person, they are supposed to be together. It is very hard to navigate without forcing one person.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah. It's a trope in fantasy that I don't like, and it's not just this. It's like the kind of the destiny thing. It's like, oh, you're destined to do this thing. And I'm like, this is not that interesting to me. Because if they're like, oh, it's difficult to do a fated mates thing without being like, these two are going to get together. Yeah. I agree. Because the twist would be them not getting together.
00:35:38
Speaker
But also though, I think that is why people read them. People know what's going to happen when that, when that trope gets served up. So I think that is why people read them. Especially if you're reading romance, because isn't the whole thing with romance, it has to have an HEA. It has to have it's happily ever after. Isn't that part of it? So maybe it does fit quite nicely into romanticy. I think it does. Unless star-crossed.
00:36:03
Speaker
Sadness forever. And it has the most romantic sounding name of all the tropes. Oh, you Shakespeare. You're tricking us all. Here's a random one I had for fated mates. The Matrix. Oh, interesting. What in the Matrix specifically?
00:36:23
Speaker
So, you know the Oracle in The Matrix? Yeah, I heard of it. Morpheus is collecting people that he thinks might be the one and he takes all of them to see the Oracle, basically find out if they're the one. When Trinity says like halfway through, like three quarters of the way through, when she went to see the Oracle, she basically says to Neo, it's like, you can't be dead because I love you. And the Oracle told me I would be in love with the one. Oh my gosh, yeah. That's so true.
00:36:52
Speaker
That's a good point. Yeah, so then that's in a science fiction type way. Yeah, I do think that there's so much crossover with science fiction and that is, yeah, there is a reason I love together. Like if you take the fourth wing thing with the dragons and they kind of like feel the dragon thing, like you can almost substitute that in for like VR kind of stuff.
00:37:13
Speaker
Yeah, like how they're in each other's minds, you mean? Like a metaverse or something. Yeah, exactly. That kind of thing. And I've heard George RR Martin considers himself a sci-fi writer first. I read that a while ago, maybe fact check that. Anyone interested? Oh, interesting. But like, and he talks about how like the White Walkers in Game of Thrones, which is like ostensibly like a kind of big zombie army. Yeah, they are zombies. Where he's like, well, this is just like a sci-fi trope of like the hive mind, like the ball or whatever.
00:37:39
Speaker
That is true. We've spoken about this before and it's not necessarily something I agree with, but I have understood the argument. Some people say that Hunger Games, even though to me it's obviously because it's a dystopian set in the real world, has Shakespeare in it. And in the future with lots of sci-fi, some people consider it fantasy because the sci-fi is so
00:37:59
Speaker
over the top and they're creating whole creatures that are completely impossible to create as far as they would understand it so some people call it fantasy because it's so far removed from what we do which I do understand I disagree but I do understand the argument so I think it there is a lot of crossover.
00:38:15
Speaker
It's the Star Wars is fantasy Star Trek is sci-fi argument. This is a whole episode, so let's not get into it now.
Wrap-Up and Promotions
00:38:23
Speaker
I do agree with that. I think going back to the fated mates and the matrix, I think that's an interesting one because that's fated mates where only one of them knows. Yeah, that's true.
00:38:36
Speaker
Yeah. And obviously, I guess Jacob also, no, well, he doesn't even know to honest, he thinks he's in love with Bella. Bella, yeah. But I'm sure there's lots more examples where it's fated mates, but only one of them knows.
00:38:49
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. And the problem with obviously Jacob is he's in a belt, but he knows it's not imprinting. Like he's very clear about that. Like I haven't imprinted and it's implied they all imprint, but I don't think it's very like well explored. So I assume he knows an imprint's coming, but then if it's fated, you could argue she was always going to have a baby, but obviously it crossed my mind. Like what if she just didn't have that baby?
00:39:11
Speaker
What if she didn't have that? What if it was a different egg that was fertilized? I was thinking, yeah. What if it was a different egg? What if the one that he imprinted on was like their third child and like he was kind of like, was it this one? No. Babies coming out, so. Yeah, like how does it work? And also, why are we not in love with Edward as well?
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, he's like half his, you know. Yeah, right. He should have been, that would have been fun. Polyamorous. Yes. Love triangle. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Thanks, definitely, Mo. If you could just release like another, not Midnight Sun, Midnight Moon, and he's got a nice love triangle. That would be great. Thank you. Wait, did she call one of the books Midnight Sun?
00:39:52
Speaker
Midnight, so yeah, that's the name of the Edward Cullen point of view. That's a Marvel comic. No, it's an Edward Cullen. I think that about wraps it up. I'm going to do the thing that Naimi didn't do, not Naimi, Melissa didn't do and actually tell you guys that the book is called Soulmates and Other Ways to Die and it's out on the 14th of March if you would like to check it out. It has a lovely yellow cover. It does. You need it in your life.
00:40:22
Speaker
I know, yeah. I'm not responsible for the cover, but the inside's okay. The inside's all right, but the cover, my god, it looks so good on the shelf. It does. It does. Shelfy approved. Awesome. That about wraps it up. I think we're done. We'll see everyone next week, maybe, if we do an episode next week. Who knows with our schedule.
00:40:45
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melova, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.