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S2.E10 Trope Tier List 2
218 Plays2 years ago
To wrap up our second season, the loosely romance themed one, we're going back to the tier list. Tune in for lots of arguing about which trope goes where and whether we agree with where we put some of the tropes from season 1.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Tropes Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the chosen ones and other tropes where I ask two published authors about their favourite tropes and the ones that make them want to cry. Um, you know the Hunger Games? And now... I do know the Hunger Games. I've heard about it. Yeah, you do know them, yeah. Essentially what the Duzzies do to them is not parenting, it's child abuse. Yeah. Beautiful. Man's playing a G-nanny as well. Might be familiar to you.
00:00:42
Speaker
It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as fun though, is it? It's not as
00:00:45
Speaker
And we figured it out. Time. Am I recording? We're recording. Great. It's time to go back to the tier list. Fun.
Romance Tropes Tier List Introduction
00:00:52
Speaker
And we'll be adding all of the previous nine tropes that we've discussed from season two, which we chose mostly because we wanted to have like a theme to the season and the theme was romance tropes. That, of course, did not stop us taking them widely out of romance and applying them to all sorts of situations and films and arcs and characters and things like that.
00:01:15
Speaker
So, the tropes that we will be adding to the list are slow burn romance, enemies to lovers, fake dating, grumpy in sunshine, forbidden love, opposites attract, miscommunication, stalking as romance, and forced proximity.
00:01:34
Speaker
Wonderful. Let's, let's start off with season two, episode one, the slow bone romance. Um, quick recap. I didn't really, it's sort of in the name, um, a romance where it takes, you know, a longer journey. It's not a quick, um, hot fiery romance. It's one that takes its time and it kind of builds towards a fun resolution where on the scale of S ABCD or in Naomi's case one to five.
00:02:03
Speaker
Did we? Did you guys put this? Naomi, what number did you assign to this in the inappropriate scale? I assigned it a 2, and then I realised that's probably like a C, so I've given it a C, and my reasons for that are because, whilst it is the most relatable to real life, I'm probably one of the healthiest types of romance out there.
00:02:26
Speaker
I'm personally too impatient for it. And if it's not grabbing me, I will read the end of the book to see if it's worth continuing. So anything that makes me want to do that, I think is not high up on my list. Is the conclusion there that the worst possible thing would be a slow burn romance that doesn't resolve how you want it
Debating Slow Burn Romance
00:02:49
Speaker
to?
00:02:49
Speaker
Yes. Like Marla Land, we discussed it. We discussed in the episode. And was it one day as well where they don't actually end up together? No, they don't. Oh, yeah. That's one that I decided not to watch in the end, so thanks for that. It was a book, so it was a book. It's both, it's both. Yeah, it's both.
00:03:09
Speaker
What do you think, Melissa? As someone who has written this, it is my love life in the apocalypse. I think we all agree that is a slow-boned romance.
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah. The problem with this trope is if you take it in isolation, I do totally agree with Naomi. Like if nothing else is happening, it's quite annoying. But the reason I don't mind it and quite like it in sci-fi fantasy settings is there's loads of other stuff going on that is more important and it's more of a B-plot, the slow-mo romance. So then I don't mind it because I kind of don't want them to get together too quickly because there's lots of crazy stuff happening and there could be a more interesting way that they develop as characters before they get together.
00:03:48
Speaker
so I don't mind waiting but anything like when it's contemporary like we were talking about with um one day etc it does annoy me so I probably put it in C as a standalone maybe B as a B plot literally as a B plot um but I wouldn't put it in D because it's not toxic no no I agree yeah it's quite healthy really yeah
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, for me, I think because it's healthy. And also I feel like you say, it's kind of par for the course. Like if romance isn't the main driver, most of the things I read, which is a lot of fantasy, sci-fi, romance is always a B-plot and slow burn is in those kinds of situations. Actually, I would say superior to like a very fast acting romance because
00:04:35
Speaker
there is so much else going on. And if the romance was very quick, you would kind of be like, wait, this is happening. That all happened very quickly, but this is also happening. And then the world's about to end, but they're just hooking up real quick. So that works really well when the stakes are sort of all elsewhere.
Exploring Enemies to Lovers
00:04:53
Speaker
Yes. So I mean, I, I, I feel like C is a bit rough. Yeah, that's why I said kind of B.
00:05:00
Speaker
Just for comparison, we're putting other things that we put and see bad, bad-ass female characters killing mentors and love triangles. Oh yeah. Maybe it should be in, I feel like purely because it's healthier. Yeah. And it is, and it it's, its issue is that it's often boring. Like by itself it's boring, but I think it's such a, such an easy staple that for me it would be a B.
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's fair. I'm sticking with C, but I'm happy to overall. C plus. That's not the right attitude for this. So Melissa, B or C? I would put it in B if I'm allowed to have it as a B plot, if that makes sense. Yeah, if it's a B plot. If you're thinking of it just as a trope and not necessarily as the whole plot, then it would be a B. Yeah. Are we happy to put it in B then?
00:05:49
Speaker
I'll allow it. She'll allow it. She'll let this one slide. She's carrying favour for a later one where she's going to be like, no, I'm going to put my foot down.
00:05:59
Speaker
OK, so to be so it is and I think this is fitting. It's alongside prophecies and chosen ones. Another sort of par for the course. Yeah, that one I think has a lot more variance involved because it can be very bad, but it can also be interesting. Let's get on to the second one. Enemies to lovers. Melissa, go ahead. Tell us this is, I think, such an interesting one. Oh, it's so good. I love enemies to lovers. I'm trying to think.
00:06:27
Speaker
because we did romance tropes this season and I love romance tropes. I'm trying not to put too many at the top that are like fun. However, it's enemies to lovers. It's like my favorite of all the romance tropes and I'm actually starting to, as I look at the tier list, edge it into S tier. I can't even lie. I love it.
00:06:44
Speaker
Oh, God, it's so good. I just love how it feels like you can have all the tension of will they, won't they, but without bothering to stretch it out over a really long time. And if you're going to have your A plot as further to the front, especially in YA and stuff, enemies to lovers is always the most fun one, especially fantasy when they're fighting each other and stuff. There's that literal physical fight. Obviously, in real life, don't do that. Don't beat each other up. But I love it in a book. So, oh, I don't know. Between A and S, I'm really struggling. I'll be interested in what Naomi says.
00:07:15
Speaker
I love it. I think it's a solid A. Nice. Yeah, I agree. It's got such good tension. It's just, it's great bands usually, it lends itself really nicely to that a lot. It does create great bands. The best quotes are from those. Yeah, exactly. And it's just, you know, I love that idea that
00:07:37
Speaker
they start arguing and then they just become little battles of who can win and it's just fun. Yeah, so it's a solid A from me. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's totally fair. What did I say to you, Jamie, about a work in progress you have that kills a lot of Bantasaurus Rex and the Archbishop of Bantabri just coming out?
00:07:54
Speaker
And I was like, yes, put it in my veins. Literally verbatim a comment that Melissa wrote on my manuscript. Now I've been exposed as I am actually writing this trope. And but I do also now feel the need to, since you both went, you've both made me be the villain. I feel the need to play devil's advocate and say, but this can cause some really problematic
00:08:22
Speaker
setups and like those traits can, people can kind of gloss over them pretty comfortably and romanticize things where you're like, no, that's like physical violences. Not good. So, I know. I had to do it. Realistically,
00:08:43
Speaker
to read, to enjoy, and as an enjoyer, I would put this in Esther. It's my favorite romance trope, enemies to lovers. I love it. When it all comes together at the end, I'm just like, this is perfection. It's just the best. But it translates horribly to real life.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah, it just doesn't work in real life. It's like the opposite of the slow burn romance where we're like, it's very realistic and it's very healthy in real life. And it's kind of a good thing to encourage where it's like, take your time, don't just jump into something. This is like, to be fair, you can do slow burn enemies to lovers. That's something you can do. It doesn't have to be super quick. You have the range there.
00:09:26
Speaker
I don't know. Some of it, I can think of instances where it's so good, but I think it almost depends on the enemy relationship. We talked about Amy and Jake in Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and their enemies, it's more rivals to lovers, which is the subsection. I think that one is much more healthy.
00:09:48
Speaker
two people who have been trying to kill each other for a long time, and then they're suddenly like, wait, I wanted to kiss you this whole time I was trying to stab you.
00:10:03
Speaker
Yeah, taking myself out of it and fully immersed in whatever this like insane fantasy novel that I'm reading is, I'd be like, yes, this is what I always wanted as a fan. But then I'm like, so unrealistic. And also, you know, if one of you hadn't like, if you'd fought worse, one of you might have just killed the other one. And this moment would have been very different.
00:10:24
Speaker
They would never do that, Jamie, because, you know, they're just plain. Knives don't actually hurt people. Well, not in books. Unless it's a George RR Martin book.
00:10:36
Speaker
It's true. Yeah, for me, as a reader, as an enjoyer, I would put it in an S, hands down. I feel like trying to be as objective as possible and knowing that people do have a real big issue with a lot of these. And some of these are written in such a way where it's like, oh, he slammed me against the wall and then like started choking me. And it's like, why is this romantic?
00:10:57
Speaker
I want to read it. Where did you find this book? Research purposes. Research purposes only. That's fine as a kink if it's like been consented to. Yeah. And we'll get on to fake dating and like manuscripts and documents signed by each party member.
00:11:20
Speaker
That's like when they're like actually fighting and then it somehow blurs into romance like I'm thinking of if someone's like young and impressionable and they're like oh like when you see online you see these kind of thirst tweets after you know Melissa because you love Shadow and Bone and you know who you choose in that and this was was this the one where we talked about the Damon Defense League
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah, probably. I'm always in the Damon defense league. We have to work overtime most days. It's a very busy job, full time. Right. But you, I hope, have the wherewithal to know that that's not healthy. And like, if you ever met Damon in real life, you would run through the hills. I might tell him off because of how he treated his niece slash wife in one scene where there's little pushy push. Little pushy push. You know, okay, fine. No little push push. I understand where you're coming from. But the rest of the time,
00:12:13
Speaker
He's just working through his feelings. It's a very difficult time, okay? His brother has just died. There was feelings involved, okay? Okay. He's just like, damn it, he never sleeps. Never sleeps. Yes, very true. Okay, I'm gonna be the poo-pooer, and I'm gonna say this is B, but only because it's problematic.
00:12:34
Speaker
Whoa. B is rogue. B feels like an alarm's going off in my head. I think I'm overruling you. I'm being objective and I'm trying to look at it from the problematic as a writing standpoint. It can be really problematic, but it's so fun. And when it's done well, it's so good. Making it A tier? I think it's an A. So yeah, if Melissa, you were saying A slash S and Naimi is saying A, it'll end up in A tier. Yeah.
00:13:05
Speaker
Which I think is, which I think is correct. Uh, yeah, I think it, I think it as to on the problematic side to be Esther fine. But if this was a fun to list Esther all day. Yeah. Oh yeah. Great. Let's do another one. So I'm not the villain anymore.
Discussing Fake Dating
00:13:23
Speaker
Fake dating. Um, I can go. I'll start with this one. Um,
00:13:30
Speaker
Fake dating, I think it's, uh, I think it's great. I actually really like, I realized when we were talking about it, I think when I went into it, I was like, yeah, fake dating. So like naff. So it's very cliche. Don't get me wrong. But I think when we talked about it, I was like, you know, this is actually a really fun trope. Like.
00:13:47
Speaker
because the, I mean, it's, and it's often high school or like work related stuff or wedding related stuff. Um, and when we were talking about, I was like, the fun thing about it is that it's realistic enough and unrealistic enough for you to be like, this would never happen. But at the same time, it's not like there's like magic or like crazy science or superpowers involved. Like it could happen, but it would, it just wouldn't, you know what I mean? And I think there's that,
00:14:15
Speaker
that part of it where I'm like, this is fun. And it's almost always done in comedies. I think like Bridgerton was an example we had when it wasn't strictly a comedy in a teaching. But that again, that was a class system pressure from families and things like that. For me, and I feel like this is rogue, I would put it as an A.
00:14:43
Speaker
I think it's fun. I'm mixing it up this season. I know you are. I was in silence for a minute there. That took me a second to actually process what you said. That I put fake dating above and enemies to lovers. Yeah. So I disagree and I'll tell you why. I thought you might.
00:15:04
Speaker
You're just trying to create conversation, I feel engaged. That's it, yeah. I'm going to talk to you tomorrow. I know what I'm doing. So, I've been thinking about this one, and I think I've changed my mind on it. I'm actually not as convinced as great as I thought it was.
00:15:19
Speaker
A lot of the time I was trying to think about what I've seen it in, what I've read it in. And I think a lot of the time it's an A story and it's usually a romance, it's usually a rom-com. And I think that doesn't really interest me, but I recognize there's a lot of scope to play with it. And it kind of feels like a recipe more than like a trope in the sense that you can put different characters, different situations into the recipe and it turns out like a new story every time. But it's still, because it's usually an A story,
00:15:50
Speaker
It's just, it doesn't grab me and I think I need something else. So that is why I want it to be a C, maybe a B. Okay. So C or B, which one are you leaning more to? I'm leaning more towards C because I think actually it just doesn't really interest me.
00:16:13
Speaker
Okay, let's put it like here for now. Okay, Melissa, once again, you have lots of power with where this one ends up.
00:16:29
Speaker
I don't mind it, but I've found it only works sometimes for me that I'm actually bothered about it. Like if, you know, like when people make those pictures that you see on Twitter and stuff where they put little arrows coming out of a book and say all the tropes are in it. If the main one people like, oh, it's fake dating would not make me pick it up. However, I have conversely enjoyed things.
00:16:50
Speaker
in a very silly way that have fake dating in them, like lots of nineties movies, even like role-modern stuff, like to all the boys and stuff like that. Like I do enjoy the fake dating elements and I did enjoy watching those films. Therefore, I actually think it's a B.
00:17:08
Speaker
because I also think it's not very toxic. Like most of the time, as you were saying, a lot of the time it's in a comedy or something. It doesn't excite me. It wouldn't like draw me towards it. However, I don't mind it. And it can make some really fun scenes.
00:17:21
Speaker
And there's often, we're talking about like consent just now, enemies to lovers. But there's often, there's a surprising amount of documentation or like handshake agreements and things that go on in fake dating, which I, which you kind of like, right? It feels like an equal power balance as well. Let's be honest, mostly between the boy and the girl, most of the things I'm thinking of are like straight comedies. It's quite nice to see an equal power balance between both genders.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah, they both have something they want, right? And that's why they're doing it. So they're both kind of in it for the same reasons, which I quite like.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a very fair and rational way of putting it. You've convinced me. I like the way you've approached it where you've said like, it's not something that pulls me into a book. I won't pick it up because it's fake dating. But yeah, I don't think I've ever watched something where I've been like, oh, this sucks because of the fake dating. Yeah, that's true. You don't hate it. Yeah. That's never been a reason for me to be like, oh, no. It's definitely one you go into knowing what you're going to get.
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah. You know the beats that that plot particularly is going to have when they realise they like each other actually and then it all falls apart and then they go back together blah blah blah. Yeah, I think so. And I think even when they don't get together, like speaking of House of the Dragon, in House of the Dragon there's a fake dating storyline between a gay prince and a princess who get married so that she can like be his cover for him and like pretend that he's obviously not gay.
00:18:51
Speaker
And I quite liked that friendship that they developed. So even though it didn't end up with them being together romantically, it was a really nice friendship and there's like a big twisty thing that she does for him, which is quite nice, which I won't say because it is quite recent as the drawing. Um, yeah, so I quite like it. Um, but I don't like love it and I wouldn't flock to it. No, middle of the road.
00:19:11
Speaker
We wouldn't go seeking it, but not really any problem with it when it comes up. I think B's very further.
Complexity of Grumpy Characters
00:19:20
Speaker
Next up, Grumpy and Sunshine. Naomi, what you got?
00:19:27
Speaker
Well, this one is problematic for me, I think. Really? Yes. Wow. I think too often grumpiness is framed as complexity and there's not really any reason for the guy to be grumpy. And it is usually the guy that's grumpy.
00:19:48
Speaker
And usually it's the woman that is a sunshiny people pleaser of a person. And I just think she would be better off putting her energy and time into someone else. And it's almost like she has to convince him and has to win him over. And I just, I don't know, it just feels unhealthy to me. So.
00:20:09
Speaker
It's a D from me. I thought I was being controversial this other day. A D, you put it with forced motherhood. Just because someone is a bit of a grumpy arsehole does not mean they are complex and have a real character. I'm in physical pain. I'm in physical pain. That was a real trigger for you, Naomi.
00:20:36
Speaker
Wow. Okay. Well, let me jump, let me jump right into the defense of Grumpy and Sunshine. And I do think what you said is very valid. And I think that also goes beyond this trope.
00:20:49
Speaker
Because sometimes like characters are just grumpy and like there's no like it's not a grumpy and sunshine thing There is just a character like within an ensemble that is grumpy and that is written as who how deep and complex they are Yeah, like Edward in Twilight But and and because even though we started from the point of this will be romance tropes and
00:21:12
Speaker
When you take this out of the romance trope, I do think there's like really great stuff here. When you look, I think one of you two brought up Wreck-It Ralph. And I think Wreck-It Ralph is really well done. And he's grumpy because he's, well, he's going to like villain therapy. But he's like, he's like, he's seen as the villain, but he doesn't, he's like, he just wants to be a nice person, but he has to be the villain. And no one likes him because of that. And that's why he's grumpy. And she's, well, she's just like a sugar person.
00:21:43
Speaker
That's a friendship though, isn't it? That's not a romance. It's not a romance, no. So I think as a friendship, you're right, that works a lot better.
00:21:50
Speaker
Yeah, platonically. And the other one I was going to say is The Last of Us. And again, it's like they, both of those things, there's like full justifications for why the grumpy person is grumpy. I know it's both the men and the woman in both of those situations is the sunshine one, but there is justification for both of them.
00:22:13
Speaker
In fact, I think in that one, in Last of Us, Ellie's, in quotes like sunshine-ness is almost like a cover for all of the trauma that she has. Yeah. And that's where it gets really three-dimensional. And I like that, but that is not common. No. Yeah, no. And as a romance trope, yeah, I mean, it's a shame that we don't see more in reverse, where the woman is a grumpy one and the man is the sunshine.
00:22:43
Speaker
it would be interesting to see how that played out more. But for me, this one, I kind of posed it as like, this is just like a good way to put two characters who are gonna clash together. You know, if you have someone who's like very low key and someone who's very like high energy, it's always gonna cause like an interesting interaction or no interaction at all. So for me, it's very much like, I actually had it like somewhere between A and B.
00:23:15
Speaker
No. No way. Because I think it's just like you, I'm looking at it from, to be fair, I'm looking at it largely from a platonic point of view. Like if you had an ensemble cast and two of the characters are like sort of are annoyed by each other because one's really like upbeat and one's really downbeat. And that's like a fun dynamic. And then you can have other characters around them who like
00:23:40
Speaker
just kind of circulate around that environment and like you can you can drive comedy from it you can also drive like very powerful emotional scenes from it i think i think it's pretty good but i i do i do concede it does generally lean male grumpy female manic pics if i had a friend come to me and she was like i feel like this guy and i knew what he was like i'd be like don't waste your time like
00:24:05
Speaker
There was literally no point in hanging around for him to change his mind. Okay. Wow. That's powerful. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to stick to a sort of high B with this. Yeah. No way. So we're in like a high B D. I can't believe you don't even think it's toxic. Nope. Wow. Well, it's not like an enemy's lovers, which we put in A.
00:24:40
Speaker
I don't know, even just coming from it from a point of like, it, I don't know. I want to read a book. I want to read a complex character and
00:24:49
Speaker
It's just, that is not complexity. And I just think it's too easy to just put people into that. What about 10 things I hate about you? What about Nick and Jess from New Girl? They're both girls who are like... Girls. Oh, right. Yeah. I thought you were like, Nick's a boy, I'm pretty sure. Nick's a boy. I don't know. I just, I think they both work and are very funny and like charming.
00:25:14
Speaker
I don't know and then also in my fan fiction of Wednesday and Edith from Wednesday on Netflix they definitely get together but they're like really good grumpy and sunshine especially like their whole like the aesthetic of it is the television sense of them being grumpy and sunshine and how they learn from each other that's what I like about grumpy and sunshine is them learning from each other I love it the only reason they learn from each other though is because the people pleaser it won't give up it's not the fact that the grumpy person
00:25:42
Speaker
is willing to
Challenges of Forbidden Love
00:25:43
Speaker
change. It's just the fact that they're pestered into it. I don't think that's gross. That's not gross though. They need to come to an actual realisation and I just think they're kind of pestered into it. I don't know.
00:26:00
Speaker
The interesting thing about the Wednesday one, I think, is because Wednesday, I know it's the Addams family and it's kind of like, well, they're just the Addams family. That's how they are. But like, there is no justification for why Wednesday is the way she is. Yeah.
00:26:15
Speaker
They're just like, no, that's how she is. And I actually think it works in that situation, but that might just be because of the context with like, we all know the Addams family from like, for like, it's been around for decades. So we kind of just know. But I would say, yeah, if you didn't know about the Addams family and you just watched that, you would be like, why is she like that?
00:26:37
Speaker
You know what I mean? It doesn't make any sense. Is this, yeah, is this a generational thing? Am I old? Is this old age? Okay. So Melissa, where are you going to put it? I would have put it in A. Wow. I really like it.
00:26:56
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't have minded it an A to be honest. I think that means it ends up in B, which is probably where it should be. Everything's B. This is the most vanilla season of all time. Everything's B.
00:27:14
Speaker
Except the spicy one we put in there. Of course. Okay, next up, forbidden love. Melissa, I'll let you be controversial and put this somewhere insane. Okay, forbidden love. It's not my favourite and I would put it further down the list.
00:27:41
Speaker
Would I put it in D? D feels rogue. However, B is a very full category and I'm looking at the other stuff in D. Yeah, look at the stuff in D and that's... Currently in D we have Mary Sue, Gary Stu and Force Motherhood. Yeah, I'd probably put it in C then. It's not...
00:28:01
Speaker
I think the problem is, it's such an old trope, isn't it? Because obviously you go all the way back, everyone thinks of like, Romeo and Juliet, blah, blah. It wasn't even the first, obviously, but it's one of the most famous, very early ones, hundreds of years old, and people are just like, yep, it's Romeo and Juliet, it's a retelling of Romeo and Juliet, blah, blah, blah.
00:28:16
Speaker
And it's such an annoying story, Romeo and Juliet, so it irritates me. And I think maybe that's the problem. It permeates into every other forbidden love story because it has to be referenced somehow. Twilight, I love it. Oh my gosh, it's wedged into every corner. She reads it for like two years at school for some reason. I don't know what the school is. She's not going to college anyway. I don't know why we're pretending she is.
00:28:40
Speaker
So it's not really my favorite because a lot of the time I've never really read one where they have a really good reason for the love to be forbidden. Like I've never read one where there's a good reason for it. So it's either prejudice, which kind of fatigues me a bit. Like, okay, it's prejudice.
00:28:56
Speaker
It's like, for instance, fantasy racism or something, whether they're different species or whatever, or it's just something really dumb. Like, to be honest, Romeo and Juliet, we're like, but our cousins don't like each other, so. Yeah, our great grandfathers had an argument like 50 years ago, and now we hate each other. I bit my thumb at you, sir, so don't. It's not happening. That's a great line, to be fair. I love that. So it's not my favorite, no. C. C. No, I mean.
00:29:25
Speaker
Um, the fake relationship. Oh, sorry, forbidden, forbidden love. Sorry. I'm reading the wrong line. I'm a notepad. Um, so I agree. Um, there's one aspect of it that I do really like, and that's a classified, I do like, um,
00:29:42
Speaker
rich person and poor person. I think that's really great. But too often it's either incest or a professor and a student. And I just think it's too...
00:29:57
Speaker
It's too problematic. I just think it's either a C or D. Oh, so glad we're friends again. We can be friends again. Because we talked about this in the episode, there's like a whole taboo section that we kind of stopped on the edge and glanced in but didn't want to dare go any further. Yeah. Which is, yeah, dangerous.
00:30:20
Speaker
Counterpoint, to be honest, I'm pretty much agree with everything you guys said, but I do think it works. Similar to it can be fun with class divides. I think it works really well in something like Brokeback Mountain, where it's a satire about a political situation or like... Yeah, that was a really good one. I think it works. I think it can work really well if you can justify it in a real world situation.
00:30:47
Speaker
Right. Or like, or you have your sci-fi slash fantasy metaphor to be hitting hard. Yeah. Like it works well in a carnival row that we talked about. But that's fantasy racism. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think Brokeback Mountain is probably the best example of this. And, but how rare is that? Yeah, exactly. And also, you know, Brokeback Mountain did it so well. It's sort of like, you don't need to make that, you don't need to do that story again. Yeah, that's true.
00:31:17
Speaker
It will just, it will probably just be like a slightly alternate retelling of that same story. Yeah. Um, so yeah, the other thing is, um, when you bring it back down to the basics, which is forbidden, uh, the Romeo and Juliet, it's just kind of boring. Yeah. This is my main problem. This is the greatest crime of all. They already want to be together. Yeah. Boring. So where's the tension? Yeah.
00:31:44
Speaker
So I think for me, it was C as well. I think we're all pretty much unanimous on the C. I don't think it's problematic. If it was problematic, I would put it in D. Do you know, I think it is problematic though, from the sense that a lot of the time it's a student with a professor. Yeah, there are problematic times. But I mean, I hear what you're saying. I think C
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah. I think, I think at that point you're choosing to make it problematic then. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, which you can do with anything, can't you? Yeah. You're like, how could I make this horrible age gap work? Like I don't hate it. It's not lazy. I'm looking at Gary Stu and Mary Stu and four's motherhood. And I feel like they're both not only problematic every single time, but lazy storytelling techniques. I don't feel like that about forbidden love.
00:32:33
Speaker
I mean, it's, yeah, it's for me, it's kind of, it's just kind of boring. And it might just be because we've, we've all been playing out various iterations of Romeo and Juliet for the last like hundreds of years. Um, like you said, like Twilight references it way too many times. Oh yeah. Um, okay. See, see it is. Um, I think to run us alongside badass female characters, that's pretty okay.
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Opposites Attract Complexity
00:33:00
Speaker
I'm okay. That's female characters actually almost ended up in D. I can't remember who saved it. I think, yeah. What have you saved it? I think it was Melva. Yeah. About the representation. Like it was because you can have male characters that are just unnecessarily balanced.
00:33:15
Speaker
feminism. Next one up opposites attract. Um, I have this here. Wait, did I, my notes say Esther, but now I'm thinking about it. I'm like, did I really want this in Esther? Too late. You said it now. Yeah. I'll stick to my, I'll, I'll die on this hill. Um, how am I going to argue this? Uh, you know what opposites attract? This shouldn't be an estimate.
00:33:42
Speaker
Opposites attract should be an S tier because it's really interesting. To be honest, it's the meta genre of grumpy and sunshine. Grumpy and sunshine is within opposites attract. Opposites attract is the bigger version of that where you can just do a lot more with it. It's a lot more flexible. This is the lowest of S tiers. This should be an A tier. I'm going to change on the fly. It's A tier.
00:34:07
Speaker
Because I think it's just so flexible and Opposites Attract is always interesting as long, like if it's a well-written narrative, if the arc works well, both characters, it's about them growing and then realizing that there is this middle ground between them. I think there's a nice kind of, you know, we're all human in the end angle to it. It can be done badly. And I'm looking at the little icon I've made for it on the tier list and I'm seeing Grease and I remember that it was done
00:34:36
Speaker
badly in Greece where he was like, oh, I'm just going to wear this Letterman jacket for 10 seconds until I see that she has just changed into me. Yeah. She's going to become my thing. Oh, that's cool. I just get rid of this thing. I'll just be me. I don't need to change.
00:34:54
Speaker
You have to meet halfway, right? I think when it's done well and they meet halfway, it's a really nice thing because relationships and love are compromised and it's a really great way of demonstrating compromise with characters and a story. So I'm going to put it in A, despite my radical S to initial opening. Who wants to go next?
00:35:19
Speaker
Who will fight me? I will not be fighting you. I actually agree with you. Okay, great. I was edging to F tier as well, so... Okay. But yeah, I have... This for me is the non-lazy complex version of Grumpy and Sunshine, which is why I like it so much more, because it just has so much more scope and it has so much more reason behind it.
00:35:44
Speaker
And, you know, I have an absolute obsession at the moment with Mulder and Scully. So it's an A bordering S for me. Okay. Melissa.
00:35:57
Speaker
I put it in S tier. I think you should put it in S tier. Yeah, I do. I think you should be in S tier. I'm being persuaded. I just can't think of any time I've not enjoyed it. Yeah, exactly. If somebody isn't an opposite and they're like getting together, oh, they're so similar. Wow, how boring. How much I do not want them to get together now. Oh my God, can you imagine being a romance?
00:36:17
Speaker
I would be so bored whenever there's a love triangle there's always like one boy who's like the best friend who has loads of common with them boring no chemistry and the one that they have nothing in common with perfect yes yes bring me that one bring me that one bring me someone who challenges me yeah exactly
00:36:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's great. What about the love triangle in the Hunger Games? I was trying to think which one. They're both kind of vanilla though. They don't really have that much personality. Well, Peter's definitely the opposite of her and Gail is not because her and Gail are really angry, really hard faced. They're like described in the book as looking so similar
00:36:50
Speaker
with how they hold their facial expressions, that people think that they're cousins or brother and sister, which is weird because he's in the triangle. And obviously, they both want violence that solves everything with violence. And then she's persuaded by Peter to not go down the violent route. And he represents, obviously, trying to talk to people and compromise. And she's not that tall. She's like, no compromise, no surrender. And they learn, don't they, from each other? And it's nice.
00:37:14
Speaker
Will you team Peter that whole time? The baker's boy? Yes, obviously. Never the prim reaper. He's got mad cake skills. He does. To be fair, that's a huge plus. You can pay me like a tree. Some patisserie skills. Let's go. You can hide me in the forest. You'd never be in short supply of a disguise. It's the perfect introvert's boyfriend. Just say.
00:37:39
Speaker
You could play mad games of hide and seek. Like go on for weeks. Perfect. Yeah. No, I love it. You know what? The reason I love it is I feel quite calm about it. Like Helpless Window Death was like, oh, emotion. I love it so much, which is the other one in S tier. It's like a drug, Helpless Window Death. It is like a drug where it's opposite track to site. Ah, yes. Give it me. Ah, yes. I just, I really, it feels like I'm doing yoga and I feel really relaxed and happy. I love it. It feels like you're doing yoga. Yeah.
00:38:06
Speaker
Okay. Okay. This two lists are looking wilder by the minute. Um, next one, uh, I think is going to be pretty cut and dry.
Critique of Miscommunication in Romance
00:38:17
Speaker
It's miscommunication. Um, I think I probably just hover it and it's going to be a D from me guys. Yeah. Oh, it's so annoying. It annoys me so much. It's just the beauty of opposites attract the
00:38:34
Speaker
of all of the, of all of the tropes. And we were talking about fake dating earlier. And I don't feel like I've ever read or watched something and been like, Oh, not fake dating again, probably because you know, it's going to be fake dating going in. But miscommunication is just like, Oh, this is, this is the worst. And then it happens like on a television show or whatever you're watching, you're reading it halfway through a book and you're like, why, why is this happening?
00:39:01
Speaker
Yeah. This could be solved in two seconds. Nothing more annoying than something can be solved in two seconds, not being solved.
00:39:10
Speaker
And when we talked about it and then we, and then we were like, Oh, this is literally, uh, the whole problem with frozen and the trolls completely miscommunicating to the Elsa and Anna's parents. And I was like, great. So you literally ruined their lives, terrified everyone. Brilliant. And got, and potentially got the, her parents killed because they went on the boat because they were going to try and talk to someone to figure out how to help her.
00:39:35
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And you think to yourself, like, it'll be fine if they've always spoken riddles, but later on in the film, we spent quite a long time with the trolls and they don't speak in riddles then. They're quite strict when they're telling what's-his-face, like, you must marry her. He's a great husband. And they're like, okay, straight talking now, aren't you? Where was this earlier? Yeah, when they're like, oh, she's engaged, it's fine. Where's your riddle, friend?
00:40:03
Speaker
Yeah. It jumps out at you as well, right? Yeah. As soon as it happens and you're like, no. As it starts to happen, you're like, Oh no, please, please tell me you haven't just misheard that and you're just never going to ask for no particular reason. Nope. That's not going to happen. Cool. Okay. Yeah. Well, they start playing the thing where they just talk about someone as a pronoun and I'm like, what's going on? Just tell them. I hate it.
00:40:31
Speaker
It's so annoying. The only time it's funny, I think, is in Frasier. Frasier really owned this trope and they do it really, really well. But yeah, that's every other time, if it's not Frasier, it doesn't work. Is that when that's like a class divide thing? Oh, it's like in most episodes. Yeah. Maybe, but also like- It's like the difference between how Frasier perceives language and like what his understanding of, his interpretation of things versus like, it's usually Daphne, right?
00:41:01
Speaker
Yeah. Sometimes, but a lot of times him and his dad as well. Yeah. And they just like don't communicate properly either. Cause like they never learn how much because I'm mad. I don't know. You know, and, um, but they, they create quite funny comedic situations, um, where they're like tiptoeing around each other, trying not to, I dunno, have the actual conversation they need to, but it's funny, but, um, I think a lot of sitcoms do that.
00:41:27
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But like, generally, if your entire plot or tension can be resolved by having a single conversation, then, you know, you ain't got a book. Attignment. The worst one of all, lives were lost, several lives. Yeah, crazy. Because, yeah, because I mean, to be fair, like she was young, but someone else should have been like, let's address the situation. Let's speak to everyone. Let's actually be reasonable here.
00:41:55
Speaker
Hey guys, this is a small child who's quite petulant most of the time. Shall we maybe just check? She knows what she's talking about. So irritating. It makes you dislike characters as well, right? Because it's like, why are you being an idiot? Why aren't you just asking the person the thing? Yeah. This can be resolved so easily. Ugh. Dieter, stay there. Let's get on to another one, which I think is going to be very cut and dry, stalking as romance.
Problems with Stalking as Romance
00:42:21
Speaker
Yes.
00:42:23
Speaker
just no discussion needed really. It just can't really be good ever. It's so bad. I don't mind it when the stalker is actually a psycho like Joe Goldberg
00:42:38
Speaker
And yeah, when it's played as, so the only two, but they're not even doing the trope because like they're actively showing, they're not, they're not showing the stalking as romance, right? They're showing the stalking as horrific stalking. Like, um, Joe Goebbog would be the serious one and then the silly one would be, um, my crazy ex girlfriend.
00:42:58
Speaker
And they both are very aware of how bad the trope is. So it's different. And the danger is things like the notebook, where they're romanticising it, or like the great Gatsby, where it's like so romanticised, that then I guess, you know, if someone's impressionable, they'll
00:43:16
Speaker
interact with that kind of story and think, oh, I have to like do these, do like just constantly keep chasing and pestering this person and do big romantic gestures. And eventually they'll eventually, yeah, eventually they'll break. That's the problem, isn't it? It translates to a real life thing that people could actually try and do. And they say, don't try this at home. And most things it's like, please, I don't have a trampoline that's suspended in the air 25 feet. I can't try this at home. However, that is definitely one people could try at home if they read or see enough of it.
00:43:46
Speaker
That's the thing. Yeah. And when, when you're celebrating things like the notebook or the great Caspi and like many, many more than top of my head, it's kind of like, Oh, that this is romance. You know, people have told me that this is romance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:02
Speaker
I mean easy, easy peasy. Nothing more to say on that one. I mean, yeah, if there was an eater, it'd be no.
Appreciating Forced Proximity
00:44:10
Speaker
Final one of the season. Uh, this is interesting one. Forced proximity. Melissa, you take it away. Give us a starting point.
00:44:23
Speaker
I'm going to start with saying I know it can have toxic elements. For instance, I think we talked about Fifty Shades of Grey and how he has a special bedroom he keeps her in and he doesn't let it be on the road ever, even when she goes to visit her mum and he just turns up in the bar and then tells her off for drinking, which I don't like. But actually, I quite like false proximity. I quite like, you know, one bedroom falls into this and all those things where
00:44:47
Speaker
It's always fun when it's false proximity because of essentially it's the end point of stalking for romance. Okay, you've kidnapped somebody, kept them in your house. Obviously, that is not fun. Like no one likes Stockholm Syndrome. However, I do quite like it when it's false proximity, but in terms of accidental false proximity, like we're trapped in a lift, or so we have to talk to each other, or there's only one bed or whatever. Like then I really like it. Like I don't see any problems when it's
00:45:12
Speaker
circumstance has trapped them together. So they have to be they're forced to have some sort of conversation or work through their emotions. I absolutely love it. So because I can see it's like, got some problematic bits, but I really, really like it otherwise. And it is the sort of thing that if I saw it, somebody said this false proximity in this book, it would attract me towards that book, I put it in a agree.
00:45:32
Speaker
Yeah. No, I mean, I agree. We're friends again now, I told you. Yeah, I like it. I mean, when we did talk about, as you say, as a conclusion to stalking his romance, everything's going to be bad. The ultimate one there between these two is that, is it 365 days is called?
00:45:56
Speaker
actually kidnaps her. It's just a super intense, hardcore version of Beauty and the Beast. I think it's fun. I also put it in A. It's nice. It's like we were saying, like I was saying with opposites attract, it's like you're going to create fun conflict with characters because it's
00:46:20
Speaker
They don't want to be next to each other. Like obviously it's forced proximity. It's not just proximity. It's proximity that would not happen otherwise. So you're often going to get interesting situations from that. Um, and there also works really well. Platonically, this is like every buddy cop, um, movie, um, lots of like forced team mops and things. I guess the Avengers to some degree in the MCU, they don't in the early Avengers movies, they don't like each other.
00:46:49
Speaker
a lot of them, like Captain America and Iron Man. That's true, actually. We all fall out. It's also post-apocalyptic. I think we talked about this in the episode, but it really leads to really nice things, I think, like found family, if you're forced together in a situation, especially a life or death situation, which is always the most fun element of any fiction, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, anything else to add, Naomi?
00:47:11
Speaker
It lends itself really nicely to sci-fi, which is, like, really underrated genre. What did we decide in trains? Oh, yeah. So much of it is just if people are on trains. In spaceships. Yeah, trains in spaceships. Yeah, yeah. Just Fox Sports. Yeah, everyone loves a train. Murder on the Orient Express. Can we just put trains in S tier, please? Trains. Just trains. I like trains. Does your movie involve a train? F chair.
00:47:40
Speaker
There's some good train stuff. Was it Snowpiercer? That's a pretty good train stuff. I love Snowpiercer. Snowpiercer's weird. That's why I love it. Have you watched the movie or the TV show? Both. I watched the movie. And the movie did add by me, so I never watched the TV show. The movie's not great. Yes, well, it's got Chris Evans in it. Excuse me, the movie does not have an entire train car just for theatre kids to perform in. And that is why the TV show is superior at the end. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
00:48:08
Speaker
I suppose it managed to get a whole season out of that. It didn't feel like there was much more to it. There were several seasons. It's running for multiple seasons. No, me hey. Yeah, they've brought in new characters. Oh, come on. Listen, listen, right? If Davi Diggs is there and there's theatre kids on a tram, like the trade, in the apocalypse, why are you not watching it? That's my question.
00:48:27
Speaker
What are you doing with your life? Sorry, I've taken us on a massive, you could say I changed track. Let's look at looking at the tailors now.
Recap and Audience Interaction
00:48:41
Speaker
Yeah. Looking at the ones that we had in before. Um, is there anything that you guys were looking at and I would, would kind of revisit?
00:48:50
Speaker
I mean, we all know Helpless Window Deaths is the GOAT, and I would watch an hour of Helpless Window Deaths. I would just go on YouTube and watch montages of them. Grumpy and Sunshine should be in detail. That's all I'm going to say. I think detail is fine. Stalking is romance. You put that down there. I absolutely would. That is the hill I would ask.
00:49:13
Speaker
What we can do is we can order this in terms of like how good they are. So like Grumhins had the lowest of beta for Naomi's push. I think stalking is very much has to be the lowest in Dieter. Yeah, it's awful. This is just lazy. It should be at the top of Dieter. I mean, compared to the other ones. The bar was not high.
00:49:43
Speaker
It was basically between Mary Sue and that. Yeah. Oh, they're all so bad. D-tier is so awful. Yeah, that's why it's got the eyes emoji on it. What do we think about... Okay, C-tier.
00:49:56
Speaker
Killing Mentors should be at the top of this, right? I feel like Killing Mentors maybe just lost out on being in detail. I'm really sad about Love Triangle, because Love Triangle for me is S-tier, as you know from when we had it on the episode, and that was very, very upset. S-tier? They were singing away from me. Prophecy Furious. Let's look into Love Triangles again then. Well, you got your own bite, didn't you? Come be sunshine. Naomi, what do you think Love Triangles? You think Happy and See? I think it's just Stay and See. In fact, I might move it down, yeah.
00:50:26
Speaker
Don't be spiteful, Naomi. I don't think it can go down. I think it's fine in C. I would be tempted to say killing mentors can go up to B. I just don't think it's exciting enough to be in B. It's like it happens all the time. Although B is middle of the road, I guess, so fair enough. And we've got slow burn in B. Yeah. And then love trying to be top of C, right? I said slow burn should be C. No one listens to me.
00:50:52
Speaker
Wait, what did we have? Slow burn is in B. I think me and Melissa both said B and you said C. So it should be lower in... Lower in B, okay. But not as low as grumpy and sunshine. No, that should definitely be low. As low as possible. Fake dating. Yeah, that's probably okay in B. And prophecies are kind of fine. Prophecies is okay.
00:51:16
Speaker
I guess because of the matter of storytelling, you always know what's going to happen pretty much. I'm sure there's somewhere that's subverted it, but fake dating, you kind of always know what's going to happen. It kind of is a prophecy. In some ways, it's a prophecy we knew all along. They will get together. Yeah, because as soon as you're into it, you're like, okay, so these two are going to fall in love. That's the prophecy. I feel like this is just being a writer prophecy. You know every single plot.
00:51:45
Speaker
Oh, I've seen this plot before. They all die at the end. Let me just spoil it for everyone who isn't the writer. Um, A to we're looking at unreliable. I don't know if unreliable narrators should be at the top of A. Um, uh, probably not at the top. I would probably put force proximity at the top. Yeah. I really like force proximity. So I'd be happy to put that at the top.
00:52:10
Speaker
What else have we got in there? Orphans. Enemies to lovers, should that at least be second? Enemy lovers is really good, oh my god. Yeah, then orphans, then unreliable narrators. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say unreliable narrators is probably punching a bit here. Yeah, I think maybe I was a bit overexcited or I haven't just written one.
00:52:29
Speaker
Classic Naomi always promoting her own. Sorry, not sorry. I think, I think Unrenowned Renators could, like, I feel like it's under risk maybe next season of getting pushed into beta. Yeah, I think that's probably fair. But I'll wait for them. Maybe I'll have written another one. For now we lived another day.
00:52:51
Speaker
One of my friends had a whole speech about how he doesn't like Name of the Wind because he thinks the unreniable narrator is a crutch for bad continuity. Which is a really interesting take, I thought. Oh, that is interesting. Is that why he's not written the third one? It's like, I have to stop being unreliable. It's like, present day. I have to make things add up. It's going to have to make sense. Deliver answers.
00:53:21
Speaker
I think that's good. I'm looking it out. I'm happy with it. I think we're on the right track. I think it's hilarious that we... Now that I'm thinking about it, it's hilarious that we only had helpless window deaths as the S-tier trope. Such a niche trope. It's really funny. It's the best one. That's why it's so good. It is the best one. It is so inoffensive. Should we read them out or not? It's so hard to do it wrong. Yeah, let's read it out. So S-tier, we have...
00:53:43
Speaker
helpless window deaths, the goat, for some reason, and opposites attract. A tier, we have forced proximity, then enemies to lovers, orphans and absentee parents and unreliable narrators.
00:53:59
Speaker
B tier, we have prophecies and chosen ones, fake dating, slow burn romance, and grumpy and sundrone. Then C tier, we have killing mentors, love triangles, badass female characters, and forbidden love, right at the bottom of C tier there. And then D, which is the, not good, don't do it guys, miscommunication, Mary Sue and Gary Stu.
00:54:24
Speaker
forced motherhood. And of course, everyone's favorite stalking is romance. And that's it. That's the that's a wrap on the season two tier list. I'll post some pictures online so everyone can see it. Awesome.
00:54:41
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melova, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.