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S2.E8 - Stalking as Romance
185 Plays1 year ago
It's weird, creepy and rarely works but we get into the weeds with this one. This trope is pretty toxic.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Literary Tropes
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the chosen ones and other tropes where I asked two published authors about their favourite tropes and the ones that make them want to cry. Um, you know the Hunger Games? And now... I do know the Hunger Games. I've heard about it. Yeah, you
Stalking as a Romantic Trope
00:00:11
Speaker
do know. Yeah. Essentially what the does these do to him is not parenting, it's child abuse. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. Man's playing a G-90 as well. It might be familiar to you.
00:00:26
Speaker
It's not as fun though, is it? It's tragic, isn't it? It's too depressing. But it isn't Neville. It's just not. It's never going to be him. Yeah, Neville. She shouldn't have done that. Stop trying to make Neville happen. Stalking for...
00:00:41
Speaker
love or stalking for romance, which I learned was the proper thing, the way that people talk about this. I also saw a video called The Harmless Peeping Tom, which I thought was an interesting subsection of this. Oh my God. Yeah. So not harmless.
00:00:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's a strange sort of creepy trope, which weirdly, having looked into this, really flies under the radar. I was shocked going into this, looking back at things that I've read or watched from like years ago, like when I was really young and just being like, oh my God, that does happen in this. It's
00:01:17
Speaker
It's almost every rom-com that's ever been written,
Normalization of Stalking in Media
00:01:21
Speaker
pretty much. This is where, obviously, a character usually presented as nice or a decent person acts in a way that should be throwing up a lot of red flags, like following someone around, watching them from afar, researching them for more than is casually acceptable. And it's often weirdly easy to miss the fact that these characters are not nearly as nice or romantic.
00:01:46
Speaker
as they are presented. So, let's chuck it over to Naomi. You haven't been first in the ring for a while. Tell us what you think. So, I think the trope personally to me has two parties, the stalker and the stalky.
00:02:09
Speaker
My toxic trait is that I quite like the stalker because I'm psychologically fascinated by them as a character. Like why do they do it? What makes them do it? Why do they tick that way? That's interesting, I think.
00:02:25
Speaker
Not that I'm condoning the behaviour,
Romanticized Stalking in Movies
00:02:27
Speaker
by the way. And that's my problem with the trope, is that when, so the storky, you know, you can get two types, people who are absolutely disgusted by it and people who completely normalise it. And when somebody normalises it, that's when I have a problem with it. So, yeah, so you get the storky, because obviously the storky is not normal.
00:02:48
Speaker
And their behaviour is not acceptable and it's not flattering. And when the storky decides that it is flattering and that they're romantically interested in someone who does that, I'm just like, nope. So there you go. That's my two cents.
00:03:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, yeah, and the big issue is that especially in movies, I think through the sort of early 2000s, this was a huge issue with romantic comedies where the character that was doing the stalking, it was never presented as
00:03:19
Speaker
like this person is a stalker, like this person is doing very unhealthy things for both them and the person they're stalking. One of the examples I had, which kind of really covers this in detail was there's something about Mary with Ben Stiller and Cameron Diaz. And it's like,
00:03:38
Speaker
The weirdest thing about that, and you were talking about how it's like, um, when the person, the being stalked sort of acknowledges it as romantic and gives it a thumbs up. That's like really weird. And like, that's where it really goes to pieces. And there's something about Mary. There's actually a love triangle where two of them are like effectively like stalking this girl and they're both the protagonist. And the other one who was presented as the antagonist are both
00:04:06
Speaker
being very manipulative and creepy and like watching her and like doing too many shady things. But one of them is presented as romantic and the other is presented as like not. And like that's, that's a real issue. It's they're both bad. Yeah, they're both bad. Not justifiable. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Melissa, what do you think?
00:04:28
Speaker
I was saying to you guys just before we started recording that this is like one of... Don't get me wrong, I obviously do so much research before logging on. Actually, usually I don't because I like to just let the tropes sort of lead me to, oh, I can immediately think of something. But sometimes I have to do a little bit of research if I'm not quite sure about the trope and we try and use the way that the tropes phrase like in the fandom, like you were saying at the beginning. This one, I could think of a million examples of that.
00:04:54
Speaker
That was quite frightening. I didn't have to look up anything. I didn't have to refresh my memory of anything. I knew exactly what it was talking about.
00:05:02
Speaker
And yeah, I think that's exactly
Critique of 'Twilight' and Similar Films
00:05:04
Speaker
it, isn't it? The problem is, if there was a bit of character development with somebody who say is doing well intention stalking, romantic stalking, and they learned the error of their ways, perhaps it wouldn't be such a tricky one that wouldn't make you feel so icky when we're talking about it. But the problem is, it's not actually usually any character arc for the stalker, it's usually in a lot of the bad examples I can think of.
00:05:26
Speaker
the store key being absolutely fine with it and being like, oh no, it's fine. You're allowed to do that because you're clearly so in love with me. But the obvious example being Twilight, he's watching her sleep. He's following home. He's literally telling her, I want to murder you. You smell so good. I can't keep away from you. And she's like, I'm chill with that.
00:05:46
Speaker
That's absolutely fine. And it's just like, no, Bella, please. Get a clue. Yeah, it's very upsetting. Yeah, so it's really difficult. I certainly am interested to hear if there are any actual well-intentioned. Yeah. I don't even know if that's the thing. I don't even know. I freak out even saying the sentence. So I couldn't think of a single good example where it was either good character development or it wasn't just condoning essentially illegal or dangerous behaviour if it was in real life.
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah. When Twilight, also Jacob also stalks her. They both stalk her. Because Jacob watches her sometimes as well, doesn't he? Isn't there some part during the whole sequence where he's like, oh, I was watching you and keeping an eye on you because love.
00:06:33
Speaker
When he's a wolf, he follows her to that meadow and stuff, because obviously they're tracking the vampires, but you know, obviously, Jacob's like, hey guys, I've just got random thought, why don't we go to this meadow? I don't know why, I just thought about it. Oh look, a vampire. Thanks Jacob. But as well though, Edward acknowledges, like, you know, Midnight Sun, because obviously that got released like however many years later.
00:06:58
Speaker
He acknowledges the fact that his behavior is creepy. And that just feels like... Is that lampshading? Yes, it is lampshading. You're like, yeah, the thing. And then you're like, okay. It's where you cover a plot hole with something. It's like, because you're self aware of it. It's over the characters aware that they're doing a bad thing. Yeah, because so obviously he did these things back in like, what, 2005. And it was a lot more socially acceptable. And now you're getting the book from his point of view. And it's like, that is not acceptable 12, 15 years later.
00:07:28
Speaker
And so, yeah, the editor was probably like, you have to acknowledge that this isn't healthy. And so he did, but then obviously he still carried on doing it. Yeah, exactly. Way to learn. Is that worse? Maybe it's worse. I don't think that is worse. You know, you're doing a bad thing. He just, he needs therapy is what he needs. Yeah, that's so true.
00:07:49
Speaker
Going back to you were saying that there's obviously there's two people involved as this. There's a stalker and the person being stalked. I think there's and then there's within that there's actually I think there's kind of like two versions of that relationship because and I'll just say it upfront based on all the examples I've looked at. It's not exclusive but it's almost always and I think the different situations of that relationship is where
00:08:15
Speaker
the person being stalked, usually a woman, sometimes is unaware of the fact that she's being stalked or pursued in that kind of way.
Persistence as Romance in Film
00:08:27
Speaker
There's something about Mary, she's just kind of living her life in many ways, just kind of going about her day to day.
00:08:35
Speaker
And I thought an interesting one there as well was Wedding Crashers. He does this where he literally follows her, goes to stay with her for the week. He let goes and charms her dad. He gets invited to the family house or something for the weekend and stuff. And then the other one is there's another version of that where the person being stalked
00:08:55
Speaker
is actually aware that the person has strong feelings for them and they have rejected them and said no, or just displayed a general lack of interest. That one I think is in some ways worse, because whilst it's better that the stalker is upfront and like, hello, I would like to take you out on a date or whatever,
00:09:20
Speaker
A lot of those stories present the idea that if that person then just persists and keeps nagging, eventually they'll wear down the person they're kind of pursuing and then it'll be suddenly everything prior to that will be seen as romantic. Yeah.
00:09:43
Speaker
like in the notebook with Ryan Gosling. Yeah, which is known as like one of the most romantic stories ever. I was not a fan of that when watching it and I did upset a lot of the other ladies in the room with me who'd seen it a million times and I had seen it but I called out the stalking and upset a few people. It is, yeah, it's not good.
00:10:05
Speaker
And then 10 things I hear about you. A lot of those, the classic high school, you must, the taming of the shrew kind of retelling stuff. Like she's the man as well. Both the female characters in that are like, go away, leave me alone. What are you doing? Oh yeah,
Rom-Coms and Toxic Persistence
00:10:25
Speaker
yeah.
00:10:26
Speaker
and the male character just persists and persists and persists. It's just really toxic. I don't know why this comes up a lot. I don't know why it's weirdly scored into my memory, but this means war with Reese Witherspoon. Yes, I was thinking about that when you're talking about something about Mary.
00:10:44
Speaker
Yeah, but there's literally a, and this is like, um, I think this is, this happens in a bunch of movies as well. This was the only one I could think of where I could get the kind of quote for it. But there's literally a scene where, um, Chris Pine is like, so like pressing Reese Witherspoon so much where I think she, he's like asking her out, asking her out and she just wants him to go away. And I think she literally says, if I say yes, will you leave?
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah. Oh God. And I'm like, why would she still go on that date? I know that was the same thing with the notebook. It's like just, he was going to threaten to kill himself. Just say yes to stop him doing that. And then Renรฉ, it's really easy.
00:11:24
Speaker
Please leave. And it's always, what I don't like about it as well is it's usually, not always, I was going to say always, but actually I've just thought of Fifty Shades of Grey and he is not a nice guy. He's usually like a nice guy, trope folded in, isn't it? Like, well, he's really nice. It doesn't really matter that he's stalking you. Yeah, it's like justified. He's actually a really nice guy. I mean, because then I suddenly thought, yeah, Dr. Christian Grey literally puts a tracker on the phone that he buys for Anastasia.
00:11:48
Speaker
and illegally tracks her so that he can turn up when she's drinking drinks with her mother and stop her from drinking. Oh my goodness. Yeah. It's really, really grim. When you say it out loud like that, it's just... That is so bad. It sounds like a Reddit post, you know? Yeah. It sounds like a Reddit post. But I think that also shows there's a... Tied into this is like, it can be in something like...
00:12:16
Speaker
It can be a more kind of voyeuristic thing, but there's definitely, so that's a really good example where the stalker exhibits sort of very possessive behavior. They treat the person as if they are theirs, even though obviously there's no, you know, there's no reason, there's no consent, there's no acceptance of any kind of like bond in that way. So yeah, yeah, it's creepy.
00:12:42
Speaker
One that came to mind for me when I was researching
Comedic Stalking in 'Peep Show'
00:12:45
Speaker
this one was a peep show. Do you guys watch that? I've seen odd seasons of peeps though, yeah. I've seen episodes of peeps. You've only seen just episodes of a certain show, you've never really followed the whole thing. It's two remakes, isn't it? Mark and Jez. There's a bit of an odd tone to the whole show anyway, but it's kind of comedic. But Mark in particular is very odd when it comes to women.
00:13:09
Speaker
And there's one woman in his office that he really fancies called Sophie. And he does stalk her. He hacks into her emails and reads what she thinks about him and then tries to change himself to suit what she's saying she wants to her friends. And then he makes sure he's on the same bus as her when they go home. And just the way that he just single-handedly inserts himself into her life
00:13:36
Speaker
is really, really toxic and then they both end up miserable because of it. It's so strange and that kind of comedy angle that they're trying to have is actually really, really depressing.
00:13:54
Speaker
There's definitely, the peep show has a sort of depressing reality to under-turn to the whole thing, right? Even from the way it's filmed. Yeah, it's so odd, isn't it? It's just really designed to make you feel uncomfortable. It does.
00:14:08
Speaker
On a similar trend, Groundhog Day. I was thinking of Groundhog Day. Yeah, with Groundhog
Time-Loop Movies and Stalking
00:14:15
Speaker
Day. And it's a similar kind of thing, but much more extreme because it doesn't just hack into, I mean, I don't know how much, to be honest, if you hacked into my emails, you would learn absolutely nothing about it. I know, I was thinking that too. You would just think, wow, this guy's really good on top of his schedule.
00:14:31
Speaker
Yeah, Groundhog Day, I thought was a interesting example of this. And then I went down a rabbit hole of like, oh, there's like a kind of, there's kind of a genre of time travel romance things that do this. Groundhog Day, he's basically stalking her by, you can only do this in these kind of repeating time stories where he's
00:14:53
Speaker
basically trial and erroring how to make her fall in love with them. But he does it twice. Like he does it with a woman in the diner, like a rando. And he asks her like, who was your like second grade teacher? And what, where did you go to school? And then the next day he's like, Oh, hey, we were in the same class together with Mrs. Blardy Blar in second grade. Do you remember? And he like, he like, obviously, manipulative. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
00:15:18
Speaker
And then it's like almost that's like a warm-up for how he then goes to Andy McDowell trying to do the same information but obviously he doesn't get very far with her because she doesn't want to do it so yeah.
00:15:28
Speaker
But eventually, like, he does get what he wants. Exactly. Yeah. And, and, and then it's presented as, Oh, look how much he's grown. Look how much like, he only did that because he gave up. He was like, Oh, I can't be bothered anymore. And then he was like, Oh, whatever. I'll just, you know, I'll just be nice now, I guess. I don't know. He was like reward. Yeah. It's the issue is often like rewarded for doing after doing all the bad stuff.
00:15:52
Speaker
Exactly. That's the thing I worry about most. And obviously, usually it's a man stalking a woman. But I was thinking, has anyone seen Crazy Ex-Girlfriend? Yeah, I was going to mention it at the end. Literally, the plot of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is her stalking a guy across America that she literally went on three dates before she was about 15. That's how it starts, right? Yeah, that's how it opens. She meets Josh in New York.
00:16:17
Speaker
and he says he's moving back home to West Covina and she like had a date with him in summer camp or something when she was a teenager and she thinks brilliant I'll just follow him to West Covina and he'll fall in love with me but what I do to be fair like about Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Clue's in the title obviously it's super ironic and she does have character development from it which is what I was talking about before
00:16:35
Speaker
like she has, she learns that she's got borderline personality disorder, she takes better care of her mental health, she gets stalked herself and pushes her stalker off the roof. And it's like this whole, it's like obviously all played for laughs, but also it's got like this serious undertone of mental health. And she doesn't end up with any of the guys at the end, she works on herself. So this is what I'm talking about. If you have a stalker that has like mental growth, then maybe it's an interesting
00:16:59
Speaker
character arc and flaw for them to have, even though it's a very grim flaw. However, if you're not doing that and they're just being rewarded, she is not rewarded. Rebecca is not rewarded
'Crazy Ex-Girlfriend' and Self-Aware Stalking
00:17:10
Speaker
in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Everything keeps going wrong whilst she's obsessing over these boys. Everything goes wrong for her. She is not rewarded for those. She's only rewarded when she focuses on herself and stops stalking people.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It does. I does feel like that show specifically, I, there, there must've been discussions all like while she was right. Cause I think the main, the main actor is also the writer. Yeah. Yeah. She, I I'd be surprised if she wasn't fully like considering this trope. Well, well, well, yes, I think so. It feels like she literally took this trope and was like, I'm going to absolutely flip this on its head. I'm going to do a whole show. Yeah. And try and try and fix it and.
00:17:50
Speaker
Also, for anyone who hasn't watched it, it's also a musical. You probably wouldn't have got that from Melissa's. It is musical, yeah. And it ends with her investing in her music, which is a really nice sort of tangent. Oh, I love it. Yeah, it's really good. It's good, yeah. That was my one, like, this is the only good thumbs up. Well,
00:18:10
Speaker
Basically, I have another one, but we'll do that later. I wanted to do the time thing, Groundhog Day. There's a little group of these, because I also thought about time with Rachel McAdams as well.
Time Travel and Romantic Manipulation
00:18:25
Speaker
And that's presented as pure romance, where he goes back and makes a few choice
00:18:31
Speaker
changes in the right place at the right time. You're right. Yeah, Time Traveler's wife does that as well. They stalk each other, depending on how old they are. She's in all three movies. Rachel McAdams. She is. Yeah, she loves this trope. She loves being stalked. That's so weird.
00:18:48
Speaker
Then I thought that then, I mentioned this one in one of our other episodes and I couldn't remember what the name was. I think we were talking about Groundhog Day and I said, oh, there was a more modern movie and I looked it up, uh, called When We First Met in 2018. And it's about a guy, it's, um, Adam Devine, um, from Pitch Perfect, uh, all workaholics, depending on what you like. Um, and it's about him and his, I think he, his like best friend who he's always been in love with gets engaged.
00:19:18
Speaker
But he's like, oh no, I don't want this to happen. And he discovers, there's a way he basically goes back in time and he goes back and he basically does the Groundhog Day thing, but through their kind of teen years to try and get her to fall in love with him, which is obviously bad. And I was like, how could you make this movie in 2018? I looked up the summary for it because I'd not seen it, but I watched up the, I wanted to know like what the conclusion was.
00:19:43
Speaker
And whilst they do try and subvert the trope, because it does end up with him starting a new relationship with somebody else and sort of realizing that this is not the way to go, this is not what he should be doing. And I'm like, okay, so there is growth there, so thumbs up. So we'll get onto the like, does growth justify it? But like,
00:20:07
Speaker
It's so problematic that he spent so long. Bear in mind, this is a movie and most of the runtime is him trying to get his friend, you know, there's a whole other level of betrayal there to fall in love with him when they're younger. And like without her knowledge, because it's because it's like time travel, obviously there's no knowledge from her that he's doing this. Obviously no consent either. And then when he does finally decide to move on, is it just because like,
00:20:36
Speaker
He didn't, he couldn't get it to work the way he wanted to. Or like when he did get it, he was like, actually, yeah, it's not as good as I thought it would be. You know what I mean? Yeah, it feels that way, doesn't it? It's like, yeah, you grew, but at what cost?
00:20:49
Speaker
There's this get out clause of time loop stories like that because like the people who you're messing with obviously don't remember because they're reset every day. And it's like, well, you didn't really harm that person then because they reset and so it's okay. And that's just not the case because the person who was doing the messing, the stalking obviously does know. Yeah. There's a power imbalance because they know stuff that you don't, it's manipulation and gaslighting still. Yes, it is.
00:21:17
Speaker
Yeah. How would, imagine, imagine like take Gran Hotei as an easy example. Imagine then being in that relationship, not for her. For her it would seem pretty, it would be like, wow, he had a complete change of heart. It wouldn't be too in like, but for him, having lived all of those days, having been rejected by her so many times, how weird would it be for him to be in that relationship?
00:21:41
Speaker
Yeah. No, he kind of cheated his way into it. Yeah. Yeah. And he has to live with that near the end. It's a funny movie because he does kind of accept that, okay, we're just meant to be friends. And then obviously he gets her in the end. So like there is growth there, I think, but it's still very, very creepy.
00:22:04
Speaker
Yeah. Again, it's like growth at what cost? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Does it really count? Again, not really paying for it either. Usually, in most stories, there is a moral aspect of if you do something wrong, you'll have to pay for it at some point. Even if it gets alleviated by somebody else saying, no, it's okay, you've learnt your lesson, you don't have to pay for this. There is still a moral cost and there just isn't in these things.
00:22:28
Speaker
Yeah, and who's to say,
The 'Nice Guy' Trope and Stalking
00:22:30
Speaker
at the end of Groundhog Day, who's to say when he's like, okay, let's just be friends, and he's kind of like, in quotes, given up, and then that's when she shows interest in him. Who's to say that then he's like, oh, and then he can just forget about everything that happened previously, because that could be a false positive for him. Where he's like, oh, figured it out. Nailed it. Yeah. That's very true.
00:22:53
Speaker
So, um, I, and I mentioned it in the introduction, um, and we would, we, we touched on how much this crosses over with nice guys. Um, in some ways I think with nice guys, it's worse than with, if it's like with a bad boy, not like neither's good, but if you present a character is like a little bit unhinged, a little bit shady.
00:23:23
Speaker
You're like, yeah, but they are kind of a creep. You know what I mean? Whereas if you present them as a nice guy, there's a part of you that's kind of like, why are you trying to tell me that this person is doing a nice thing when they're not, you know? And inside of that, there's a subsection, there's a really good YouTube video on it called Harmless Peeping Toms.
00:23:47
Speaker
which I know this happened way more. This doesn't happen as much nowadays as far as I'm aware. And I think that's the same as this whole trope happens a lot less. But I think it still happens. But this specifically is the harmless peeping Tom, I think in an older sort of
00:24:03
Speaker
television shows and movies where a character would be in a situation where they would see another character in like a compromised position or more often than not like showering or getting changed. And it would be like a very celebrated moment. It would be like, Oh my God, mum get the camera. Like they'd tap their friends on the shoulder and be like, Oh my God, guys, look, look, look, look, and they'd all just watch as like,
00:24:26
Speaker
this person was like, and it was always in, I think it happens in Spider-Man. He like sees Mary Jane through the window across the street. And like, I think something about Mary has a whole scene about it. I remember it happening in stuff like Smallville, where he just happened to see like Lana changing or something like that. And they would just sit their eyes like wide, like, you know, cartoon style, like the floor. And it was always like a celebrated moment. I think that's,
00:24:54
Speaker
It's like crazy that we were like, Oh, wow. Whereas like, it should be, it should be like, I understand the human instinct where it's like, can't take your eyes off that thing. But it should be like, okay, we'll play like a creepy tone on the music here because this is a creepy thing that's happening. Yeah, they're still watching. Yeah.
00:25:11
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Which I think they do quite a good job of maybe trying to steer away from that in you, because whenever he catches his victims and he's spying on them and they're doing something very private, he just gets on with his own private thing, yet he's in the middle of the street under his coat.
00:25:31
Speaker
And it's like, oh, okay, you're actually going to show as you're being creepy in a wedding. I kind of appreciate. Because I know that Penn Badgley says, when people talk to her about that show, a lot of women, which is terrifying because Penn Badgley is not a bad looking guy, are like, oh, but I think Jo means well. And he's like, no, please, please. Jo is a bad person. Jo is awful. How much he has to remind people
Psychology of Stalkers in Media
00:25:53
Speaker
about that. Yeah, definitely.
00:25:55
Speaker
So I'm kind of glad they show those moments where it's not he is just being he does something that is like repulsive to the viewer. And I'm like, yes, yeah, there we go. I was gonna say, I think he is a really good example, though, of someone having something psychologically mentally wrong with them.
00:26:12
Speaker
I mean, yeah. You know, like, you know, like a lot of stalkers like are presented as a nice guy and they're just doing it for romantic. Like normal people. Right. Like normal people. Thank you. Whereas he is presented as someone. No, no, he is actually he's a sociopath or whatever. Yeah.
00:26:28
Speaker
That's why I was gonna say it was this, it was you, Caroline Kepnes is you and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Those were my two where I was gonna say like, oh, do you think this ever works? These are the only two that I can think it works in. One, because Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is a subversion of the trope, which is like designed to highlight the trope and say what's wrong with it and say how you can help people. And then you was obviously like, the point of view character is the villain.
00:26:56
Speaker
like he is despicable and cruel and sick and it's like obviously this trope this character trait works with him like because he's just a horrible he is a very creepy and disturbed man it's very hard to give this trait to a hero and for it to feel right yeah right and it's it's in you as well though the the woman that he stalks back she doesn't know that he's doing all what he's doing she doesn't know that he's putting a lot of leavers in her life so that's quite a good as well in the sense that
00:27:26
Speaker
She's not accepting of it. She's not normalizing his behavior. No, that's very true. Yeah. And then that happens with his subsequent victims most of the time as well. And then they usually find out at a certain point and that's when everything gets... That's when everything ends. Basically when the illusion is gone and he can't hide it anymore. Well, actually, no.
00:27:53
Speaker
No, not with love. I was gonna say, love was like, thank goodness, another stalker. Yeah, I guess.
00:28:03
Speaker
But he gets punished, though, still. He gets punished in his own way, doesn't he? So even with love, he then gets trapped. Like, he very, very quickly falls out of love with love. He's like, I'm not sure, actually, I want to be here. Now it's been exposed to me and she's accepting my stalking. I don't like it. So he does get punished in his own personal way, not perhaps in the way that the viewer, if you're watching the series, would like him to be punished. He is getting punished. He always feels hard done by Joe. He does.
00:28:31
Speaker
He also, they build on it as you kind of get through the series, but there's very much an element of he had a very disturbed childhood where he was abused and a victim.
00:28:45
Speaker
I quite like that. You're part of the problem now. People do these things for a reason. And when they uncover the reasons, I think they're actually really fascinating.
Character Analysis: Joe from 'You'
00:28:58
Speaker
So I don't know. Yeah, it's not healthy. I'm not saying, I'm just saying, I think it's interesting. It is interesting. Yeah. And that's what makes that an interesting show as well. But he's never at any point presented as like a heroic character or like someone to aspire to.
00:29:14
Speaker
No, but you do like him in the sense that he's charismatic. Yeah. You want to see what he does. Um, so yeah, he's, he's a very interesting character. And the fact that you see as well, his background makes him very three-dimensional. Yes. Yeah. He's the charming psychopath. Yeah, I agree. Which is terrifying. And then even knowing that we watch it and like, I'm, I'm the same. I'm sometimes there's, there's episodes where I'm like, Hey, like,
00:29:44
Speaker
You do you, Jo. And then like the show, I think the show writers smartly are like, hold on. No, no, we need to get everyone back on, back on side here and just remind everyone that Jo is a completely insane lunatic. Yeah. Cause there's everyone, again, there's an episode where they like bring you back to reality. But speaking of giving this trait to a villain, this happens so much in superhero movies.
00:30:11
Speaker
Which is terrible. Like, not as bad, obviously. I mean, I know it's quite the juxtaposition. We're going from Jo and you. It's not Jo and you. But I was just looking through some of the superhero movies where this happens. And I think two out of the three Spider-Men do this. Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield's incarnations. They followed either Gwen or MJ from afar. For her protection. And like spied on them from trees and stuff. Got ya.
00:30:40
Speaker
which is creepy. Superman has done this in almost every incarnation, where he like hovers outside of Lois's window. Yeah, he does, doesn't he? Yeah, to protect her. I see. Okay, protective. Even Smallville, I think he, I think, I mean, there were a lot of episodes and I can't remember all of them, but I'm sure he probably did it with Lana for a while in the first few seasons.
00:31:04
Speaker
Um, the X-Men movies have it with, but in the, in the, in the more controlling kind of way where Hugh Jackman's Wolverine is obsessed with Jean Grey, even when she's in a relationship and he's just unrelentingly married at one point as well. And he's like.
00:31:20
Speaker
Totally I'm phased by it. I don't know. Yeah, he always has to be the hero as well. He kind of has to want, even when he says he accepts it, he has to one up her partner on purpose because he loves her more. It's so weird. It's so toxic, yeah.
00:31:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, a lot of superheroes. Like with all of these things, I think less so now. But like, yeah, I saw a thing on people were saying even Iron Man a bit. And it's not that he necessarily stalks Pepper, but he is very controlling about where she is and who she sees.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's the power struggle thing, isn't it? It's the interesting thing of people always say like, oh, if you had the power and visibility, what would you do? And there's always some dickhead who's like, obviously I'd go into the changing room. And it's like, if you actually had these powers, would you? Because that's essentially what we're talking about, isn't it? These superheroes can float up to the ninth floor of the building where Lois sleeps and watch her through the window because he can fly. And so it's the power and balancing again. It's like, not only am I powerful, I'm going to use it.
00:32:25
Speaker
but I'm going to say I'm protecting you. But really, it's not protection if it's a
Stalking in Superhero Films
00:32:30
Speaker
power imbalance. You can't be in a relationship, especially if it's a power imbalance. It doesn't work. Did you see that movie from the 90s, Hollow Man with Kevin Bacon? No. He got turned invisible and the stuff he did to women in that movie because he was invisible is just shocking. There you go. Exactly. It's just like, if you could, would you? Exactly. There's all these people going, yeah.
00:32:54
Speaker
That's not okay. Say, I don't not murder people because it's illegal. I don't murder people because I don't want to get caught. It felt invisible. Yeah, exactly. Try and catch me off. That's true. All I can think of now is the, have you guys seen the boys?
00:33:12
Speaker
Yeah. They present the invisible man very poorly. He hangs out in the girls' toilets a lot. Yep. Right. Gotcha. But that's a show about how horrible anyone with superpowers would be. Exactly. Yeah. So that kind of plays into it a little bit again. A bit like you and a crazy ex-girlfriend. Yeah. So, I mean, as always, we round off the episodes with, do you guys think this is problematic?
00:33:47
Speaker
apart from if it's literally being played for laughs or because they know how toxic it is and therefore that is just proving it's toxic yes obviously it's talk you can't use it in a serious way no you just know
00:34:04
Speaker
Even for laughs though, you've got to be careful because there's so many rom-coms that have this. Very true. Or just the superhero movies. It is of a time I do think this is far rarer now than it was 15 years ago. Yeah, very good point.
00:34:20
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, the fact that I can, the only two examples of this, I can think of that where I was like, yeah, good. Or like it works. I'm gonna say good. It's like, it works. It's Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which is essentially a story about- Yeah, it's a pastiche of the entire program. Exactly. And the
Changing Portrayals of Stalking
00:34:38
Speaker
whole arc of that story is about her developing self-awareness and like consciousness of others and healthy relationships. Yes.
00:34:49
Speaker
And then obviously you, which is again, uh, yeah, it's just taking the trope and then be like, no, this is what it would actually be like. It would be really awful and murdery. Oh, speaking of you, I just realized Gossip Girl, Dan Humphrey. Have you guys, did you guys watch Gossip Girl?
00:35:06
Speaker
No, I've never actually watched Gossip Girl. Oh my gosh. Well, it's a huge spoiler. It's a prequel to you, basically. The whole twist at the end is that he was Gossip Girl, which I don't think actually makes sense, and I'm sure you can go through it and be like, plot, plot, plot, plot, plot, plot. But the idea was that then it's like, so the entire time he's been randomly dropping gossip and ratting people out,
00:35:31
Speaker
to get with Serena for like five or six seasons. To protect her. That's why he starts it. It's to protect her. Isn't it? It's to protect her and also so that he can elevate his status, isn't it?
00:35:42
Speaker
Yeah, so he starts it, well, his defense is that he started Gossip Girl because, you know, she was coming back to town and there'd been all these rumours about her, so he was like, okay, I'll say she's back and I'll protect her by creating an entire gossip web of lies. Is it just one of those things where they didn't know who it was and then they just threw something together at the end, the writers? Look, I don't want to speculate what happened in the right room, Naomi, or how many drugs they took, however...
00:36:11
Speaker
He hadn't even met her when he hatched that plan. No, he hadn't. Which is insane. He literally just read about her because she was a socialite. Yeah, stalking. He stalked her in the best way he could. Amazing. So we think it's problematic is what I'm getting at. Yeah.
00:36:32
Speaker
Although I can see why it's fun, I suppose. If you use it in a more modern way, as opposed to the old-fashioned ways we're talking about, such as Edward realising in a book published last year that his actions in a book published 15 years previous were probably incorrect.
Romance vs. Harassment in Media
00:36:48
Speaker
Yeah. But we couldn't say it from his point of view, we could only say it from hers. I know.
00:36:55
Speaker
if you could figure out a way, because the real, I think the crux of it is that it completely blurs the line between romance and harassment. And I mean, it's always going to be hard to define what is romantic because I think one person's romantic is another person's absolute hell nightmare. But that being said, stalking's never, it's never okay. And so I think to present it as romantic is always going to be terrifying.
00:37:25
Speaker
Agreed. Yeah. And then to justify it with, but it was love all along guys. It's terrifying. But I mean, if someone could figure out how to make that work in a modern setting, then I guess, I don't know. I don't know how you can make it work just because I think stalking is always going to be a problem. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's tricky. No.
00:37:53
Speaker
I think we're going to talk about Hunger Games with Peter watching Katniss walk home every day, which was the only thing that put me against that baker boy. And I was reading that, I was like, oh, you watched her go home every day for like 12 years? A bit weird, Peter. He didn't go out of his way to watch out there, did he? Look, man, the way he said, he thinks he's dying when he confesses that. He thinks he's dying. We didn't have time for questions. But he never does it again.
00:38:22
Speaker
I was going to say it's a big win for Hunger Games, this trope I think pretty much non-existent in that book. It is pretty much non-existent. That is the only tiny thing and I think it's a bit harsh.
Subtle Stalking in 'The Hunger Games'
00:38:35
Speaker
That's just him watching. I'm going to assume it was on his route home or she walked past his house or something.
00:38:43
Speaker
It was from school because he knew which one she was with the two little pigtails, so she would watch it. He just says, I will watch you go home every day. But as I say, he was dying. You know, he had a fever. He thought he'd been stabbed with a sword and he does lose his leg in the books. So it was a very serious situation. I forgive the baker's boy. Does he lose his leg? Yeah, in the book he does. He has like a... Yeah, they give him like this amazing, like futuristic... Yeah, like she's got some new ear, doesn't she? Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. If it was nowadays, it would have to be an arm, robot arms. Here's an idea for a way that it potentially could work.
00:39:24
Speaker
is if the person doing the in quotes, now it wouldn't be stalking them. I was gonna suggest if it's like a government agent and they're assigned to a certain person, but they'd have to not let them know that they're watching them. That's not, it's like forced stalking because it's like their job. That seems more like forced proximity. Yeah, it's stalking, spying. It is stalking a stakeout with the police. I think stalking kind of,
00:39:52
Speaker
I think stalking is more than just the action of, it's like the desire to, the want to, the intention. Exactly. So if it's your job and you are like a PI or something, which is actually what happens in something about Mary. The other person is a PI, I think.
00:40:11
Speaker
Yeah, this is war as well. This means war even. They're both government spies, right? And they use all the equipment to spy on her. I don't think that's okay. But they're also using their work equipment to do something that has nothing to do with their job. Yeah, I'll make notes about that. How do you get away with stalking number one, say, and spy? So funny. Anything else to add?
Writing Flawed Characters
00:40:34
Speaker
Would you write it?
00:40:37
Speaker
No, I must admit I didn't mind it because I think Naomi does it really cleverly and it's not quite stalking, but the intense in game over girl. She's a bit of klepto.
00:40:53
Speaker
And so, and the kleptomania part is partly to do with wanting to be closer to people. So I suppose you could technically argue it's stalking, but it works so well with her very flawed character and you're not feeling sorry for her or people aren't like, wow, I'm so glad you stole my lipstick. That's not how she gets punished. So that's the, that's on the same trend as why it works. Exactly. Yeah. Because it's like, it's part of the character is so flawed and it's about a flawed character and you're not trying to
00:41:22
Speaker
Here's the issue is romanticizing it. Yeah. I think that's the one issue. Yeah. You can't romanticize it or reward it because it's not healthy behavior. Agreed. I've got to tell you guys, one day I will write a stalker. I thought you were going to say one day I will stalk someone. And I'll find out what all the fuss is about. I do some research and then... Well, until that day.
00:41:51
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melova, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.