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79. I'm Always Looking For The Signs- With Meg Nocero
77 Plays4 years ago
Meg Nocero is a former Department of Homeland Security attorney. After 19 years of federal government service, she resigned to pursue her dream as a writer, inspirational speaker, a success coach, and attorney for justice.
After her mother's death to breast cancer, Meg's life changed more than she expected. In her book, Butterfly Awakens: A Memoir of Transformation Through Grief (She Writes Press – will be released on September 7, 2021) Nocero takes us through her grieving process and a journey from Miami to the coveted El Camino Trail. Like a caterpillar transforming into a butterfly, her process shows us how the pain of loss can catapult us into unexpected growth.
Contact Meg Nocero and order her book https://prbythebook.com/experts/meg-nocero/
Contact Kendra Rinaldi to be a guest or for coaching:
http://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
Recommended
Transcript
Signs from a Deceased Mother
00:00:01
Speaker
I do experience life not as it's seen, but perhaps as that mystical, you know, you know, imagine like, you know, because I know my mother is here. And I know when people show up in my life, she has something to do with it. And I love the fact that the conversation can continue beyond this reality into another
00:00:26
Speaker
And I'm always looking for those signs, like you keep speaking to. And I find them, and I find them all the time.
Introduction to 'Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between'
00:00:37
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:44
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:00
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Interview with Meg Nocero
00:01:22
Speaker
Oh, you guys are in for a treat today as you listen to this interview with Meg Nocero. I didn't even ask how to pronounce your last name before I started to record Meg Nocero, the last name. It's Nocero, but that's the way people say it in Miami.
00:01:37
Speaker
Yeah, because I'm Latina, Nocero, but Nocero, Nocero, Nocero. Okay, so with Meg Nocero, now you guys got to hear her voice. So Meg is a former Department of Homeland Security attorney.
00:01:52
Speaker
She is an author, which that's one of the things that's actually going to be part of the focus of today's interview. And she is a mom, which as what she said is her favorite role and the most what? Challenging.
Meg's Background and Career
00:02:12
Speaker
So welcome, Meg, excited to have you here. Oh, thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here to talk to you and your audience. We already have so much in common. I know it. So well, just when I was reading the book, then when I when I read the part that you had been an exchange student in Colombia, I was like, Oh my gosh, I have to message her on Instagram. So she knows I'm from Colombia before.
00:02:34
Speaker
I wanted to know what city. It doesn't happen to be the same city as me. But that's so cool that you already know a little bit of who you're talking to as well. Now, Meg, there's like a whole bunch. I was asking you, like, what do I say? Because there's so many things I could say of what you are and who you are, because you're also
00:02:53
Speaker
have your podcast Manifesting with Meg, Conversations with Extraordinary People, which is also a YouTube channel. You've done a TEDx talk, which is entitled Wake Up, How to Create a Better Story for a Happier Village. And you've met a lot of famous people, a lot of people that people have on their vision board. And you are probably an expert then at manifesting because you've manifested a lot of things in your life. Yeah.
00:03:22
Speaker
I'd like to say that I like to play with the universe. And I think that, you know, for me, I'm like the kind of person who's the reluctant.
00:03:32
Speaker
person, reluctant evolution, like evolution is like, I don't want to change. And if I don't have to change, I'll hold on. So it has to be a pretty big something that happens to me like, okay, this is a big slide.
Impact of Mother's Death
00:03:45
Speaker
And we are talking about a big thing that happened and how that was basically the catalyst for a lot of the other things that
00:03:53
Speaker
started to happen after that. So today we'll be talking of your book and really the story behind your book. And people can read the book and find a lot of the details, but the book is Butterfly Awakens, a memoir of transformation through grief.
00:04:09
Speaker
So take us into that and what was your grief journey that was the catalyst for all these different changes and an amazing, amazing journey that you had ahead.
00:04:24
Speaker
Yeah.
Journey Through Mother's Cancer
00:04:25
Speaker
So in 2011, my mother basically come to breast cancer. She passed away April 12th, 2011. And from that point on, my life has not ever been the same. I can say, well, before that point, because the green process certainly begins before you actually lose the person that you love. I think the threat of loss, you know, kind of has you negotiating with the world a little differently. But yeah, that was the point in time where
00:04:53
Speaker
I really I would say fall fell to pieces like I fell apart like you know we it looks like so funny we fall apart to be built back up again hopefully stronger I certainly believe that with my particular journey I am a stronger person
00:05:10
Speaker
Nowadays, I was, although definitely an emotional one. So my sensitivity gets me many times. It's like my superpower at the same time. It could be like the other side of the coin, right? Ditto. Ditto here. It is exactly that empathy component that we have and that that relation. It's it's our superpower, but it is our sort of Achilles Achilles Achilles heel. I can't even pronounce Achilles.
00:05:35
Speaker
How do I say it? I'll just say that. So take us then into when your mom was diagnosed, then what did you, you said you didn't cope well. So what were some of the tools you used during that time and from diagnosis to her passing, how long was that?
Struggling with Grief and Finding Joy
00:06:00
Speaker
So it was really interesting. It was kind of a point in my life when she found out she had cancer. I was six months pregnant with my daughter. So it was an exciting time. At the same time, I was dealing with hypermesis gravidarum, which is really like severe nausea.
00:06:14
Speaker
when you're pregnant, and it's like you really feel like, is this happening? And I chose this, because I did choose to have another child. And you're just like, oh my god, I don't know how to even make through the day. And it was very interesting because my mother had been nursing me back to health. We were all super excited. It was girl, we had all these boys, and we finally had a girl. And she really was the one to be my rock that I could hold onto.
00:06:42
Speaker
And then, you know, finally it started to pass somewhat still bad. But then, you know, I got a phone call and she dropped the C word on me, you know, she found out that she did in fact have cancer. And I remember it was just like the whole world just swallowed me up. I was just like, like, I was very, very, like,
00:07:01
Speaker
Dizzy it was it was a really incredible like trying to hold on to something because you feel like your world is just going to Change so when you're asking me what the first you know when I found out until basically the end it was a process of so that was 2008 when I found out and then she passed away in 2011 so it was about three years we had a point in time after Eva was born my daughter was born she was in remission and
00:07:30
Speaker
for maybe four months, but it came back again with a fury in her liver. But that being said, you know, I'm not a person who is like,
00:07:42
Speaker
the world is coming down on me, unless the world is coming down on me. And I feel like I don't see the light. But with my mom, it was like, OK, well, you know what? We're going to work through this.
Tools for Managing Grief
00:07:54
Speaker
You just helped me. I'm going to help you. You got this. We're going to come out victorious. Certainly find the right doctors, find the right cures, find the right everything. And I was really set out to be this inspiring light for her.
00:08:10
Speaker
And we had moments where there were a lot of good news in the path. Chemotherapy is a terrible thing. To watch someone go through that and it takes away their dignity a lot, because she was dealing with the same kind of nausea that I was dealing with when I was pregnant. It's really humbling. And my mother was a force to be reckoned with. She was a strong woman. She stood her ground independent, really a force.
00:08:38
Speaker
So it was really hard to see her having to deal with those limitations. The process is the process. I have asked many people in my own life while I was going through it, does this ever feel better? Does this ever change? And they're like, you'll never get over the loss. It just dulls over time.
00:09:05
Speaker
incredible stab pain into your heart. Like the writer that I am, the pulsating pain that oozes sorrow. It was just that oozing sorrow. Wait, wait. Say all those descriptive words again. The sorrow and the pain that oozes sorrow. It's so true. Pulsating pain from a staggered heart that oozes sorrow.
00:09:26
Speaker
like, gosh, you're so good with words, my gosh, and it's so true. It's so true. It just dulls that a little bit. But then there's times in which it could still creep up again and feel again like the pulsating thing. I tell people it's not about the time at all because there's other times in your life in which something will come up
00:09:46
Speaker
I'll just give an example, like somebody gets married or something like that, those kind of even happy occasions in which then the grief can then be back again, like, oh my gosh, I don't have this person by my side in this very special moment, right? And all these things come right back up as if it had just been yesterday.
00:10:06
Speaker
Like she should be here to celebrate with us. She should be here to experience this. Yeah, absolutely. Or even selfishly, for me. If anything good happens, I would call her. What do I call? Yeah, what do I call? Yeah.
Balancing Career and Grief
00:10:20
Speaker
My sister had to get used to being the one I'd call during these times when my mom passed away. And then I realized one time in conversation with her, I'm like, you know,
00:10:31
Speaker
I realized something that I have noticed in the last couple of days. I've been talking a lot to you and not with you. And I realized that that's not fair. I think I'm using you in that grief journey. And sometimes it would bounce back and forth. Sometimes I'd be the receiving. But there was one week I remember that it had been a lot. And for me, acknowledging that and noticing, she was like, thank you. Because she was kind of feeling like she was my go-to to call and that.
00:11:01
Speaker
So anyhow, so yes, I can totally understand back to you because it's not about me so the so then in that journey then of certain waves of the of Hope that you were given in that process as you that's a thing you're dealing with these waves of emotions of Hope when she's in remission then back again So it's like you pull your the rug gets pulled from under you several times in that journey and
00:11:28
Speaker
You know, I think that the I think the most profound memory that I, I still look back on, and it's the empath in me, right, you know, I how I would react to other people, you know, it's kind of like, she's gone, it's time back to go back to life again, like to go back to the way things were. And when you and I both know that will never happen. There's never gonna be
00:11:51
Speaker
life again as we knew it before that loved one passed. So I mean, it's just not, I'm not saying it's not going to be good again, or great. I'm just saying it's not going to be the same again. And
00:12:04
Speaker
A lot of people outside of you, the external people are people who love us. They're like, come on, come back to being who you were before. And I honestly did really fear that I would never be able to laugh again after my mother died. Like, like pure laughter, like that joy that would exude. And I'm telling you, like my book, my first book is a magical guide to bliss. I had to literally write my own guide to get myself back to some semblance of bliss because I couldn't imagine that was a that would be a terrible thing to grieve is never feeling
00:12:34
Speaker
happiness again, you know, that would be worse than
00:12:38
Speaker
the actual loss of my mother. I think
Journey to Self-Awareness
00:12:41
Speaker
she would grieve that for me, to be quite honest with you. That would be terrible. She would never want that. She would never want it. And I wonder, do you feel that the part of feeling bliss, feeling joy again, is this notion maybe culturally or whatever that if we feel happy, it's as if we have stopped missing them or stopped loving them and so forth. Do you feel that there is that aspect there
00:13:05
Speaker
that does not allow us to know that joy can exist even in our grief.
00:13:12
Speaker
Absolutely. One of the things that I was processing, first of all, is that I felt I failed. I was supposed to be this inspirational guru champion that I was going to get my mother to have that whole mind, body, spirit kind of interplay where her body could get the healing because I just kept comparting her with, mom, you can't think that way. Don't be negative. Whatever.
00:13:37
Speaker
And I felt like I failed her. So if I actually experienced happiness, again, it was as if the guilt would overwhelm me is like, how could I feel that when I failed my mother? And how it's intense. I mean,
00:13:52
Speaker
I mean, literally, I had to get to a place in my life where I had to be accountable to myself. You cannot dictate anyone else's journey. That is their journey as well as my own. I have agency over that. But, you know, I mean, you kind of think that I could have done more to help her and I didn't.
00:14:14
Speaker
I just, at that point, it felt just entirely bad. So not only was I grieving her loss, but I was also really beating myself up, really beating myself up. And so I just felt like not feeling would be the best route to go just being completely numb to life again. And that is where, you know, the happiness component just didn't feel right anymore.
00:14:37
Speaker
It's interesting because our bodies on a physiological level will start talking louder at our own health issues if
Manifesting Joy and Helping Others
00:14:47
Speaker
we're not taking care of ourselves and paying attention, which is what happened to me. I came down with tinnitus, which is the screaming in my ear.
00:14:59
Speaker
And I was like, what? And I went for MRIs. What is going on here? This is a crazy universal joke where I just went through this terrible experience with my mother and now it's coming back to haunt me. And of course, my imagination, being a creative person, I would just take flights of fancy.
00:15:18
Speaker
And there is, there are then lies, you know, all the best horror stories I imagine. I literally cannot watch them. I don't want to, but, um, you know, I was like, wow, I'm getting punished, huh? Is this the punishment I get? Which really is, is my body is begging me to wake up to my life again. So, you know, I can look at it like an alarm clock. You're basically hearing an alarm clock in your ear, like,
00:15:44
Speaker
Wake up, Meg. You have children to be present to your husband. You know all this, your life is still ahead.
00:15:55
Speaker
That is kind of an easy, that's the best example, it's alarm clock, yeah. How did you manage to then be able to address it since it was an emotional, since your physical representation, it was a physical representation of your emotions, how was that being able to take care of the ringing of your ear?
00:16:18
Speaker
Right. Well, so, you know, I, they wanted to give me a lot of antidepressants, antinexieties. And I'm like, I barely wanted to get married and commit my life to one person for the right imagine or committing yourself to a drug for the rest of your life. I like, uh, no, thank you. Not that it's not a
00:16:32
Speaker
Listen, I'm not an anti anything. I'm like, go and do what you got to do for you. And I was literally like, there has to be tools out there to help me somehow calm my nervous system down. I was like, this is what I'm just completely I was having a panic attacks. My anxiety was through the roof.
Anxiety Management Techniques
00:16:52
Speaker
Especially, you know, you know, I don't know if you've had this experience as well, but the three o'clock in the morning, wake up, call yourself, you know, walking around going, why am I awake? It's stress. Yes. Anytime it's 3am, it's stress waking up. Absolutely. So I so I started one of my very dear friends basically picked me up at my office and drove me to an acupuncturist where she was the most incredible, calming,
00:17:18
Speaker
doctor who just sat me down, listened to me. I didn't feel like she had to listen to me. I felt like she wanted to listen to me and help me. So that was the first step in my healing process as far as getting the empowered tools I needed to navigate my life differently. Because I've accepted the fact that the ringing comes when I'm stressed. It does. It comes back. It's like, oh, I need to chill myself out big time.
00:17:46
Speaker
But I also know how.
Creativity as Stress Relief
00:17:48
Speaker
I still go to acupuncture. I still do all the modalities I've learned. Tapping was wonderful. I do this butterfly pose that's incredible. I love that it's called the butterfly pose, too. You know, it's a tapping, like nurturing, you know, when babies are tapped when they're babies and they're calmed down, that mother will do to their child. That's what you do to yourself. And then you visualize yourself in the place that makes you happiest, which is for me, the beach. Take me to the beach.
00:18:14
Speaker
Take me to the beach and it's always in Miami. You do live near the beach. You're in Miami, right? Yes, for sure, for sure. So you were able then to take care of that. Now, how was it then for you in this grief journey as you were going through all of this anxiety? And I know more details are in the book, but since we're at the podcast and we kind of want to know this gray in between part and then we'll talk about
00:18:40
Speaker
all these gratitude components a little bit, a little bit. We'll sprinkle some of those there because a lot of them are in the book. I was telling Meg, I'm still missing, let me see, the best part as she said, a few chapters are at the end. How was it then with work functioning, to go to work in this type of environment which is a high stress environment being an attorney? How did you manage that date today with your grief?
00:19:09
Speaker
So, you know, I am very dutiful. I knew I had to do my job to take care of my family and I would show up and I would leave when I asked.
00:19:18
Speaker
For a reprieve like I wasn't looking to take off a significant amount of time I only wanted to do it more at a part-time so I could start to heal because I was Exhausted because you know people forget that the whole coming No caring for someone who who is sick is is very taxing on the person who's the caregiver That in your family as well. I'm not the only one who did take care of my help might take care of my mother I mean she it was it was
00:19:48
Speaker
tangential I was doing with my family. But it was exhausting because I would drive back and forth from Orlando to Miami. And you know, so when it came down to the time to go back into my life again, I was like, I can't do this. And I've never been that like I never been I can't do this. I've always been okay, push through, you'll be all right. You know, and this is the first time I was like, I'm really
Leaving the Legal Career
00:20:10
Speaker
exhausted. I need a break. And you know, I had asked and they said no. And I'm just like,
00:20:17
Speaker
Wow, this is really amazing. The disconnect, I think when so, I mean, I've never asked, I had never asked before anything before that. I had never asked for really anything.
00:20:30
Speaker
And they said no. And I think that sent my anxiety more into a spiral. And you know, it's funny because thank God I had certain tools because I would be sitting in court and have a docket of like 60 cases, you know, just because we did masters. And I would start to have anxiety attacks. And if you know what an anxiety attack feels like, it's like you leave your body.
00:20:50
Speaker
So a lot of the tools that I had been taught were you have to somehow get yourself back into your body. And sometimes people put ice on their tongue, that cool sensation, you feel it back. Or I used to wear a rubber band around my wrist, and I used to pull at it just to feel. Or I would literally pinch my skin. Because literally, if I got up and started screaming in a courtroom full of people,
00:21:14
Speaker
that would certainly have me, you know, putting this committed committed. And I will not give it to anybody, I will not lose my you know what, so that anybody has anything to say about Meg losing her, you know, you know what, so I would be sitting there and I was like, Holy God, just keep deep breath. Oh, one of the greatest things
00:21:32
Speaker
that I learned, and this is for anyone who's suffering, for anxieties, pick a multiplication table, like the numbers, like five times five, because logically your brain will go back into, you know, if you start thinking mathematically, and honestly it would become a process. I used to go five times five, twenty five, five times sixty, and thirty. And it would take me out of that creative side of my brain where, you know, I'm dying!
00:21:52
Speaker
That is so good. That is so good. Yeah, it's like to switch it, to just switch the brain pattern right there. I had never thought of the multiplication being something. Yeah, because it's something you could just completely hone in and focus on that has nothing to do. Because sometimes people, you know, it's kind of like how they say of when you're falling asleep, counting sheep. I'm assuming that that counting component is kind of like as if you're taking yourself.
00:22:16
Speaker
calm your brain down for sure. That is for sure. I was like, calm your brain down. My brain is literally an overdrive right now. And you know, one of the things that I used to do in court a lot was hear stories of people who were telling these horrible stories about what happened to them in their country of origin, since it's asylum cases a lot of times.
00:22:33
Speaker
And I would be like, oh my god, this is gonna happen to me. So I had to like, you know, after a while, you know, people forget that when you're subjected to something over and over and over again, you do internalize it. And after 20 years in court, I was internalizing this stuff. Anyway, long story short, you know, I did in fact, get an offer. I did petition for a leave of absence, and I got it. And it was like for six weeks. But at least it gave me
00:22:59
Speaker
some semblance of an opportunity to, to just rest, you know, and figure out a plan. And, you know, my mother told me before she passed away, stress is going to kill you. I just want you to know, overwhelming stress, because everybody has stress in their life, overwhelming, you know, chronic stress over and over, not good.
00:23:18
Speaker
and don't want to have regrets at the end of your days. You don't want to leave it on the table.
Manifesting onto Oprah's Stage
00:23:24
Speaker
I mean, not leave it on the table. You want to make sure that you are in this world doing what you're supposed to do. And I was just like, well, I want you here. I didn't want you to go anywhere. I want to play with you. That's kind of my thought process. But what is it that I started asking questions of what I wanted to do? What do I want? What did I want? And then things started to unfold because I started paying attention.
00:23:49
Speaker
And I've used this quote many times, because this is literally the quote that I've used to follow my life. It's, pay attention, be astonished, and tell all about it. And I made it a point to start pay attention to things in my life. And I was gutting excited, get surprised, get excited about it, and then tell the storytellers, the podcast. How do I tell? Oh, my god. And I was like, you'll never believe what just happened to me. You'll never believe what just happened to me.
00:24:19
Speaker
an unfolding of excitement rather than dread. And in that excitement of like looking at things, you were also able to see things that were connecting you with your mom in that journey. So can you share some of those little moments in which you kind of saw them as messages and there's a lot of other things that unfolded afterwards of your dreams that you would have and so forth. But could you share a few of those?
00:24:49
Speaker
Please.
00:24:50
Speaker
So the thing is that we're happening, like starting to pay attention to my mother playing a role. I mean, the biggest one is clearly when I was on stage with Oprah Winfrey. I know. That's the one I wanted you to say because I was like, I just didn't want to, I was like, does she want to say it or does she want people to wait till they read the book? Yeah, no, that one was kind of like, you'll never believe what just happened to me. Do you want to share about the dream? And then what happened that day or do you want people to read it?
00:25:20
Speaker
Well, you know, it's interesting, because, you know, I'm one of these people that I generally like to know the ending before the actual story unfolds. Really? Yeah, so it's maybe I'm one of those spoilers, you know, certainly, you know, Oh, here comes Meg, she's gonna ruin the story again.
Sharing Stories to Inspire Hope
00:25:37
Speaker
Like, I have a book club, and they're always like, Oh, you read the ending before you finish the book. I wanted to know whether it was worth my while.
00:25:44
Speaker
to invest the time. That's a funny because I think my son is very similar and they he likes to actually watch movies we've already seen. And maybe it is because he already knows how it's going to end so then he can actually enjoy the process somehow better. I don't know. Yeah. Well, you know, people who are anxious people who have a lot of anxiety, it will it will make it more enjoyable because you're not like looking to because, you know, sometimes things happen.
00:26:08
Speaker
that are nothing to do with us. But because we experience it on a like a physical level, our emotion, like, you're feeling it, like they always say, you know, when you run a race in your mind, it's already as if you ran the race in your body. But people who are really, really sensitive, and you know, empaths, like we were speaking to you that you feel it, you don't like you feel everything, you're just like, I don't know, if this goes ugly and dark, I don't even know if I want to finish this stuff. So I'll go the
00:26:35
Speaker
But, you know, so for me, you know, it was kind of this whole process where as far as Oprah is concerned, I mean, I just found she was so inspirational. She is so inspirational.
00:26:46
Speaker
For me, I always got so much from watching her shows, so much from learning from what her guests had to share, just so much about the human experience that sometimes made me feel, and my friend always says this to me, we're never going to die. Denise, is it Denise? No, Denise says this is Teddah, but Teddah would always say to me, you're not going to die of terminal uniqueness. There is someone in this world
00:27:08
Speaker
who is going through exactly what you're going through, you just gotta find them to get the wisdom you'll need to get through what you're going through now. So, you know, that was the whole gist behind it. I was like, okay, I like negotiated with God.
Offering Support and Hope
00:27:23
Speaker
And I said, okay, you get me through this. I will absolutely share the vulnerability of my story so that I can help somebody who's going through this as well. And I, you know, it
00:27:32
Speaker
Whether or not someone aligns to this, it's a very self-involved process writing a memoir. You're talking about yourself the whole time. My husband keeps saying, oh my god, aren't you tired of you? And I said, sometimes you are. I'm tired of me. But yet, at the same time, it's as if I knew what I needed when I was going through the hardest times.
00:27:56
Speaker
If I had read a book where I could go down to the end and say, oh, that could have, that can happen. It gives you hope. And I literally lie, align with the notion that depression is sadness without hope. So if you infuse hope into somebody's, you know, vernacular or whatever, or like life spirit, then that might be the one thing that they might need to hear when they're feeling so desperate. That is never going to change. But yeah, it did for me.
00:28:27
Speaker
and you share that, it's beautiful. I mean, it's really, you see a light come on. And I have to tell you, Kendra, outside of the Oprah story, on my own, I had an experience where I was a part of this group called, it was a tinnitus group. And there was a beautiful person online in the evening, because I was up a lot of night looking through social media. And he literally was on the verge of suicide. And I was like, I'm going to sit here with you.
00:28:55
Speaker
because i know what you're going through and i'm gonna walk you through this and then we're gonna get you on a plane tomorrow to go be with people who are gonna help you surround you with love because you can't go through this by yourself and he i love to say that he's doing so well right now you know
00:29:10
Speaker
not that I am that and there was another woman online to the two of us were just bombarding him with love. We're like, you got this. It's only for tonight. It's only for now.
Finding Joy Amidst Grief
00:29:20
Speaker
Let's stay together. And we'll get you out tomorrow because he was by himself. And it's maddening. It's very maddening the whole experience when you have this loud yelling in your head and you're just like,
00:29:30
Speaker
The noise is so intense and if you have it to the extent that I did and there's other individuals as well, it's like this is never going to change. But that hope component comes in and you're like,
00:29:42
Speaker
It does. You will
Role of Gratitude in Healing
00:29:44
Speaker
be all right. You will be all right. You will be right. We're going to get through this. You're going to get help. You need to be surrounded by... So for me, it's like, you know, if I can be that spark of light, I tend to try to... Back to the mom role in life, right? I do less well with my children.
00:30:02
Speaker
mothering others than mothering others. Mothering others is fine. There's something about, you know, having your, you know, more skin in the game with your people that came out of your body, you know, or even it's not biological, but they're your people, you know. The people you're raising, the children you're raising that you see. It's so true. It's a bit easier to
00:30:19
Speaker
to mother, others. Yeah, so going back to that role, that's kind of how you feel when you're sharing these stories of yourself and being an accompaniment to someone else that's going through something so hard. And I think that that's the reason, I mean, your book is that. Your book is that for somebody else, right? It is that spark of joy.
00:30:40
Speaker
the other things you do, the podcasts, the TEDx, all these things that can bring that relatability to someone else. Because again, we can't experience what somebody else is experiencing, regardless if it's been the same. We both have lost our mom to cancer. I can't tell you I know how you feel. I can't say that. I can't. I can relate to what you went through. You can relate to what I went through, but we are not the same.
00:31:06
Speaker
person. We don't come with the same set of beliefs, the same set of relationship itself that was your unique relationship with your mom, just like my unique relationship with my mom. So to find someone else that you can relate in this process of grief and that does spark that sense of hope that, okay, there is some light at the end of the tunnel in this grief journey is like the best thing we can do, I guess, too.
00:31:35
Speaker
Well, that's what you're doing with your show. I mean, you know, the gratitude does come from grief because somewhere along the line, you're going to see life differently. You know, they always say the contrast in life. You won't understand how wonderful the sun is unless it rains, you know, and even how wonderful the rain is if it's been just too sunny and it's burning down the land. I mean, that's what you're doing with your show is you're helping people maybe open their mind to there is something.
00:31:59
Speaker
you know, to appreciate and value with all of this, even though it feels so crappy. Yes, that's the thing. It doesn't negate that what we went, it's like, it's not saying that what we went through, oh, thank goodness I went through that. No, I always say that's not what we're trying to say when we're saying that we're grateful. You know, now that we're standing in gratitude, it's not like, oh, I'm so glad that happened.
Reflecting on Life's Contrasts
00:32:23
Speaker
No, it's not. If we could take that away, we would.
00:32:27
Speaker
If that had not happened, we would not be who we are today, right? So therefore, there is a component of gratitude for that experience, even though we still, you know, are grieving. Yeah. It's going to be a constant grieving. It's just a different part of the process. You know, they always say, Kubler-Ross always said, there's five stages.
00:32:50
Speaker
Well, it doesn't mean that you are going to be linear in your stages. One, two, three, four, five, and you're done. No. It's kind of like you go there, and you come back, and you go there, and you come back. But that's the human existence. I think before my mom passed away, I had this child-like notion of
00:33:06
Speaker
It's like watching an American movie. You know, you know, at the end of the day, the hero wins because all Americans demand for that. You know, I want to leave there knowing that, you know, the downtrodden hero on the journey will come out victorious. But, you know, it's like, okay, but sometimes it's not clean and tidy in a box that's a bow and, you know, it looks like Tiffany's, you know. I was just gonna, I was thinking of a Tiffany's bow, too. There you go. On the same wavelength. I love it.
00:33:37
Speaker
Oh my God, that's so funny. Yeah, it's true. Life is not like that.
Manifesting Dreams and Transformative Experiences
00:33:41
Speaker
Okay, so going back to the signs, tell me then some of these things that happened that you could, with the Oprah people, you have to read that for sure. But the fact that you got to be on stage with Oprah, that's like amazing because you manifested it and you'd got that. But what were some of these little nuggets, other nuggets of connection that you had with your mom?
00:34:04
Speaker
Well, you know, I have to say one of my favorite. So there's an organization called Love Button Global Movement, and it has these buttons and it has love on it. And I was like, this is amazing. So I'm a big fan of Coldplay. I would sit during those months, months, I say months.
00:34:23
Speaker
of just desperation and sadness in my closet listening to yellow on like a fast-forward like it kept going you know and I felt like really like my mother was singing this song to me and yellow is not my favorite color literally yellow that was the color of happiness but it's not like I'm a black wearing girl like I love black you know it's always makes you thinner looking it does like you know always a good you know the little black dress
00:34:47
Speaker
But I would be listening nonstop to this song as if my mother were in fact singing it to me. And I saw this love button because Coldplay was on concert and they were going around there handing out all these buttons. So I was like, okay, I'm a big asker. You have to go and ask big. And that's the manifesting process, right? You have to ask, believe, and receive.
00:35:08
Speaker
So I found Love Button. I went on the Chris Martin website. I wanted
Concert Experience and Life Changes
00:35:15
Speaker
to say thank you to him. I wanted to thank Chris Martin, give him my first book, say thank you to all of them, all the members, Guy, all of them, Johnny, everybody, from Coldplay to thank them for getting me through this really rough time in my life with music. Because music is that that heals my soul.
00:35:32
Speaker
I mean, and you'll see in part three in the book, it kind of got me through what I was doing with stupidity sometimes, but yeah, music will give you that, you know, beat to your step, maybe that kick to your step, right? But I love to think that, okay,
00:35:48
Speaker
This is crazy. But as of my life is like a musical act, there's a soundtrack behind me, right? You too, right? Like, if I'm in a moment, I like I can literally hear done, done, done, you know, I'm like, Oh my God, did that just happen? That's like me. I like
00:36:03
Speaker
That's more fun, you know, than just stillness and silence and whatever. Oh my gosh. I'll tell you an anecdote of that after we get off. But for me, it's not that. For me, it's that people, sometimes you say something and I already think of a song. Like if you say something and it's part of the lyrics of a song, I'll just start blurting it out. And you could be saying something so deep and something, but you say something and I'll be like, and it was all yellow, you know? And I might say, and it's like, or you know, something, I'm like, quit. I was like, sorry, sorry. It's like, I relate to stuff.
00:36:31
Speaker
Well, the minute I found that you were from Colombia, I was like, I was like, oh my God, give me some salsa and merengue. I mean, that was the most incredible thing in the world when I learned how to dance that because when your body gets to move to music like that, it's nothing better, right? So with regards to this love button, I had emailed them, said I want to send you my book. And the founder of love button got back to me.
00:36:53
Speaker
And it was, I don't even know if he realizes how poignant and profound that call is. But it was right before I was trying to decide what to do with my job, whether I was going to resign or not. And he says to me, he says to me, I am so proud of you. And that is something my mother used to say to me all the time. And this person I didn't even know, called me out of the blue, said this to me.
Journey to Self-Discovery
00:37:17
Speaker
And he goes, I want to invite you to a love button fundraiser at Chris Martin's house in Malibu.
00:37:23
Speaker
You know, take Denise with you. Denise is my beautiful friend, Denise. And this is because you had mentioned, had you mentioned Denise in your first book? Had you mentioned her in that book that you were giving them? Or how did she conduct? So my first book, Magical Guide to Bliss, I had a book launch at Books and Books in Coral Gables. And Denise and I had a really wonderful relationship because she was a judge.
00:37:49
Speaker
She still is in immigration court, and I was a prosecuting attorney, a trial attorney there. And after our hearings were all finished, we had a friendship, and it was like a really soul-to-soul friendship. And I had asked her if she could introduce me.
00:38:05
Speaker
at my books and books event. And she gave this beautiful introduction. Well, one of the things that I sent out to love button because you know, everyone likes videos and everyone likes, you know, being heard, you know, so I sent the video of my books and books presentation out to the I didn't know who I was. I didn't know who I was sending it to the universe, right? Let's go to the universe.
00:38:25
Speaker
And he said, I want to invite you and Denise to be my guest. Because he had seen that video. So that's what it was. Because even in the book, I was like, how did like, how did he know to tell her that I didn't get that part of that? So then, okay, so then you all you go with your husband and Denise. Yes, to Malibu. To Chris, to Chris. I'm a total fangirl.
Embracing New Opportunities
00:38:50
Speaker
Like, I
00:38:51
Speaker
Okay, and especially with a lot of authors that I love to I'm a fangirl I just like if somebody in touches my life like I feel like you know the gratitude needs to be expressed I need to tell them how much I love them how much you changed my life. Listen as an author myself. I'm like, thank you. I love that. Thank you and
00:39:08
Speaker
And I know people have more of a need to tell people how much they hate things. I'm like, so tell me all the questions. Why do people spend all that time on Yelp giving people bad reviews? Why do people do that? I don't understand. But I do love language. And one of my friends got a review that said this drivel. And I love that word. Drivel? D-R-I-V-E-L. So I've been telling my kids, don't give me your drivel.
00:39:38
Speaker
Gonna look at that up, that word up. What does it mean? Dribble, I know. It's like, what? It's very visual, I'll tell you that much. But anyway. Okay, so you go there. Yeah, you go there. And it's this really wonderful, you know, gathering. He has Dr. Sadeghi, Habib Sadeghi and his beautiful wife, Sherry Samy, both doctors, they were hosting this event. And they're the founders of Love Button.
00:40:03
Speaker
And they were just so kind. And he's like, you came, because I mean, random person from Miami flies out to California and LA. And I came with my entourage, right? My husband and my dear friend Denise. And I was like, here I am, like insanity, right? Like literally.
Healing Power of Music
00:40:19
Speaker
Oh my gosh. How did you decide like what to wear to the star studded event? Oh my god. Like I was like, I wore this.
00:40:29
Speaker
Matt and his maxi dress. It was just, look, honestly, you know, I was so funny, because one of the things I'll tell you is like a lot of the a lot of some of the ethnic women in court used to come in their Sunday best, like with sequins the court, right? Because they really that like they really were showing a great deference, right? And I was really comfortable. Like, what do I do? Like, this is an outdoor party. I had no idea. I wanted to be like, you know, I got to feel comfortable in what I wear. And I have these I have a decent fashion sense. So, you know, I wore what I wore. And
00:40:59
Speaker
But my husband and I were sitting there, and right before Chris started playing, Chris Martin, Chris Martin started playing. Good old Chris. Yeah, first name based. I mean, he's met me twice and probably doesn't remember me from Adam, or three times actually. So he starts to sing his first song out with yellow. And I just felt like my mother was right there with me. I think I did start to cry. I just felt so overwhelmed with this sense of gratitude
00:41:26
Speaker
as if it was a nod from the universe, you've gotten yourself this farm egg. So I looked at my husband, I said, you know, I have to quit my job. You know, I have to resign. I said, there's nothing that I can do there anymore. The walls, the doors, everything are closing on me. I can't stay here.
00:41:45
Speaker
And that is what I did, much to his chagrin, with all due respect and love. And he, in his own way, has stood by me for these years, you know, of my butterfly-ness, you know, the magical pie in the sky mentality.
00:42:04
Speaker
But he was also there when I was through the worst of the agony, and it must be really hard to look at someone you love going through that and not being able to do anything to help them, which is how I felt for my mother. Meg, I was just going to say hello. You do know how I feel. I was just going to interrupt you and say exactly that. You do know how it feels, that helpless feeling. It's a terrible feeling. Especially for, I always say this,
00:42:30
Speaker
For women, yes, but for men, because they like to fix it. They want to fix it. And you couldn't fix me. I mean, I just had to go through it. And giving you that space. This happens with my husband, too. When I want to cry, I really just want to cry. I don't need to be fixed in that moment. I just need to be allowed to express those emotions. It's like, what can I do? I'm like, no, just let me. Let me just right now have my moment of just
00:42:56
Speaker
crying and grief. That's all I need right now is for you to know that there's nothing right now to be fixed. This emotion is normal. This expression of my emotion is normal. But I
Embracing Change and Intuition
00:43:09
Speaker
appreciate you acknowledging maybe a hug, maybe this, but there's nothing that you could say or do right now to fix our feeling.
00:43:17
Speaker
So then you turn around, you tell them, this is how long after your mom's passing that this event happened and that you decided to quit your job. How long after? May 2017. So a year.
00:43:31
Speaker
Yeah, it was. No, it was good. Oh, wait, your mom passed. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Sorry. Seventeen. Right. Because I'm stuck with April 12th. Yeah. But it was. Oh, OK. Yeah. It took me a long time to. You know what, though, I was really paying attention to what was happening. I knew I couldn't do it irresponsibly and put my family in a situation that, you know, economically or even just, you know, on a level of
00:44:00
Speaker
you know, support mindset, you know, my son was starting. Actually, he was starting high school that next year. So I thought that was kind of good timing because, you know, in my other my other daughter, my daughter was, you know, in, you know, it was a very it was a good time to do it. As if there's any other good times to do it. I just felt no guilt.
00:44:25
Speaker
about it. I was going to deal with the loss of my identity as a trial attorney, as a prosecutor, as those dreams, also grieving the dreams that I had there, had I wanted to bring a different mindset to my agency. I had a lot of visions to help
00:44:44
Speaker
You know, the people who are working there, because like I said, people who sit and listen to these kind of cases over and over again, it's a significant impact on them too. And also there was the people coming to court all the time. So I thought I could do a lot there. But like I said, a lot of the doors were closing in on me and the options were very few.
00:45:02
Speaker
And I was like, okay, well, that was the faith component, right? Leap of faith, right? Oh, my God, you know, you're just praying that parachute, let me open, but it doesn't for quite a bit. Like, I feel your nose is until your nose is grazing the sand, the sand, the grass as you're, you know, touching the grass as you're about to land. And then try to explain to everybody who's watching you do what you do. I'm like, she's crazy. She's literally lost her mind. And
00:45:31
Speaker
And a lot of people do say that because maybe they can't really contemplate it. But I always say, the people who risk much are the ones who have a chance to gain much. And we're not talking about financial, we're talking about everything in your life, in your journey, in everything. And I was like, well, magical thinkers.
00:45:53
Speaker
You're not very limited, but you have to understand that we live in a world where there are people who are not magical fingers. And I always, you know, I like to believe that my husband picked me because we are like the yin and the yang, you know, certainly very different, but with foundationals that are the same. So, you know, with that, you know, the journey continued when I decided to go follow and find the lighthouse I saw when my mother died.
Purpose Through Grief
00:46:20
Speaker
Which, you know, if you tell people that I'm going to go find the lighthouse or my mother is, you know, died, you know, what what they're like, what, what are you doing? And and how things effortless unfill unfolded from that point on. Do you have a picture? Are you pointing to a picture of it right there as you were talking, how you turned around with their picture of it around near you?
00:46:41
Speaker
Oh, I don't know how you how you turned around and like pointed was as if you told you're such a visual person. I know I could see you seeing the lighthouse. That's why I'm like, is there a picture of it? I'll tell you I have like I do vision boards and I'll tell you right next to me are all the vision boards. You can see them.
00:46:58
Speaker
The lighthouse itself, it's so funny because we're all looking for this lighthouse and I had to go in Spain, but even right outside my door, on Key Biscayne, on the end of Key Biscayne, there's this incredible lighthouse. I just saw it yesterday and I'm like right outside. It's like the whole Alchemist kind of story. He goes, travels the world only to come back and find its
00:47:21
Speaker
right there. You quote Paolo Coelho, you quote so I love this because every chapter you start with a quote that and so it's like, oh, that's beautiful. That's the one in Kiwis Lane. Yes, it's so beautiful.
00:47:37
Speaker
So every chapter, Meg starts with a quote, so it gives an insight a little bit of the feeling and the mood of that chapter and also an insight into your world, too, and your perspectives on even death. Because of the quotes you chose, I can see what it is that death represents to you, too, and that continuity.
00:48:05
Speaker
Um, as well. So, um, yeah, so go ahead, continue. Cause I, I, you were probably finished and then I've like, I interrupted with the thinking that you're seeing. I'm ADD, as you can see, but I'm like, as you're like looking at them, like, Oh, it doesn't matter. But you know, like, you know, it's just, you know, I think the funny thing is, is that light houses can be, you know, you can be the light, you can be the lighthouse for somebody. You can be that light that people need to follow to get themselves out of that darkness.
00:48:30
Speaker
And it's so symbolic and now metaphorical at the same time, but one of the things, and I love Paolo Corrello, I mean he, I don't even know how, like these seeds were planted in my mind because of a friend of mine who gave me all of his books. Like mine was by the River Pier that I sat and wept. And it was like the whole grief. It was grief.
00:48:53
Speaker
He embodied it in such a way, in a mystical way, the way I could hear it best. And I say this to a lot of people. There is no set prescription for every person that is the same. Every person has their own journey, has their own process. You have to figure out what that is for yourself. And I even think, as writers, even as writers, you have to figure out what kind of writer you want to be.
00:49:20
Speaker
And I love, he's one of my, I call them my book angels. I always say that Paulo Coelho embodies the Joseph Campbell hero's journey as well as Liz Gilbert does. So I found that my mantras were male and female, those two together. But Paulo had me seeing beyond the veil. And that gave me a feeling that I must be somewhat special because I do experience life
00:49:49
Speaker
not as it's seen, but perhaps as that mystical, you know, you know, imagine like, you know, because I know my mother is here. And I know when people show up in my life, she has something to do with it. And I love
Awakening to Life After Loss
00:50:04
Speaker
the fact that the conversation can continue beyond this reality into another. And I'm always looking for those signs like you keep speaking to.
00:50:16
Speaker
And I find them, and I find them all the time. I find them all the time. And, you know, I mean, Wayne Dyer is one of my favorite authors and I have- And you met him. I saw a picture in the back of your book that you met him too. I walked right up to him and I was like, hello, I'm Meg. And he said, hello. And I said to him, I said, listen.
00:50:38
Speaker
You told me to design the cover of this book that was called the sunrise of my soul's bliss So that I can actually see it coming to fruition. Can you sign it for me? And he goes well, this is very interesting I said yes, but I feel like you were my teacher and you need to give me the a so step it like step it and he's like I Love that Look bold
00:51:03
Speaker
I was just like, you know, opportunities, how many times is it gonna come around? Right? So I was like, I'm taking advantage of this. But he always says, you will, you will see it when you believe it. And I have truly come to believe that I will I might my mother could be here, or my mother cannot be here. What do I choose to believe? And I choose to believe that she's still here with me just in a different and more expansive, right?
00:51:33
Speaker
And as we all will be, right? As we all are. Because even after this interview with you today, I'm going to remember your beautiful face. And I'm going to be grateful for your part in my journey because of that sunshine and light you're bringing to me.
00:51:49
Speaker
Same to you. And you know what? I have to tell you, I ended up using your book. I was coaching a client. And I said, hold on a second. I said, I'm reading a book. I can't tell you. It hasn't been released yet. But I have to read you a quote from here. And so I actually highlighted one. And I read it to her. But the thing is that this client, Butterflies, have had a huge meaning in her grief journey.
00:52:18
Speaker
I just went like this and showed her the cover so that she could see what it was. And I read her this one. If there never was any change, there would be no such things as Butterflies by Wendy Mass.
00:52:37
Speaker
That's just so beautiful. And I want to ask you then before we close up, the reason of the name then, Butterfly. What with Butterfly Awakens, what inspired you for the title of your book?
00:52:53
Speaker
So interestingly enough, the original name was love. Well, the first name was the sunrise of my soul's bliss. Oh, the one that you have Wayne Dyer. Okay. So it was a compilation of the magical guide to bliss and the memoir. And then I had a beautiful editor who basically said, this is too big. You can't put a 700 800 page book out into the world, you have to break them up into two parts. So I did. And then I called it well, and I'm Italian, right? The Rinaldi nochera.
00:53:19
Speaker
And I called it La Bella Farfala, which means the beautiful butterfly in Italian, right? And I was told, you know, that it might not be a commercial title because no one understands really what La Bella Farfala
Living Authentically and Fully
00:53:33
Speaker
is. Oh, and the Farfala, they think you're talking about pasta. Is it pasta? You know, what is this?
00:53:40
Speaker
So I had, one of the things that I value really right now in my life is the relationship I had with my family, my sisters and my father, and it's really profound, my extended family.
00:53:52
Speaker
My father and I truly believe in a consciousness mentality where more people wake up to what's happening in the world and around them, the more enlightened we all can be to elevate our own existence from a state of fear to a state of faith. So an awakening, when somebody awakens, they come to their life in a different way. And it's a conscious approach to this experience that we have this once around that starts from like,
00:54:22
Speaker
you know, numbing out to actually being a part of it. And the more people who are awake and alive and filled with light, the better off we all are. So the butterfly awakens means that butterfly is actually taking a risk to break out of their cocoon into the light again after that period of metamorphosis.
00:54:40
Speaker
And what better gift can you give someone to invite them to be alive again, come alive to their dreams, come alive to their life, come alive to their light. And with that, how many of us have an opportunity to just experience this experience that we all are walking through in a different way by awakening?
00:55:01
Speaker
to it and writing their own story and creating their own, you know, their own journey and dancing to their own music and all of the things that, you know, make this life so wonderfully lived. So amazing because, you know, there's always two ways you can look at the world in the morning. You know, there's, you know, that wonderful Einstein quote, but also is that, you know, they say, you know, you know, good morning or
00:55:26
Speaker
God, it's morning, right? So, you know, it's like, you know, either way, it's your perspective and
Processing Emotions and Finding Gratitude
00:55:32
Speaker
you have control over, you know, at least how you see when you're, you know, at your lowest, you know, even while you can wake up and ask and reach out and
00:55:44
Speaker
you know, start to believe in your life again. So that's pretty much the the awakening part. And then the butterfly is just how pretty your butterflies like butterfly, butterfly, butterfly. And it was so cute, the little package I got sent for the this so adorable, all the different
00:56:02
Speaker
little butterfly little you know things and in it so beautiful the the packet that you sent thank you so much it was so it's just it's such a joy to talk to you and feel your energy you can see how you're touching you know moving me with your words and the passion behind the words
00:56:23
Speaker
as good Italian blood that we have. So thank you so much. And so the books official release date, please. And how do you get it? Yes, September 7, 2021. I do have a giveaway actually, up until September 6.
00:56:42
Speaker
If you buy the book, pre-order it, and you send me your receipt to megnoceroatmac.com, you'll enter the giveaway for my Butterflies and Bliss box, which is all my books. Yeah, I will be sending you all my books. And maybe even a tiara, because I love tiaras. And essentially, you know, it's like the crown. She's wearing one right now. Hold on. I got to take a picture of this, because that way I could post this on social media. OK, look.
00:57:10
Speaker
perfect. Thank you so much. Anything else that I did not ask that you are like, Oh, you don't want to wake up at three in the morning thinking I did not say this on her podcast. I know like all the details again, I want
00:57:25
Speaker
the listeners to go and grab the book and read it and find out all these stories of how you met Oprah, how you transitioned out of your job, what kind of took you into this journey to Spain and all these other things, which I still have to read that part and get to learn more. But anything else that you'd like them to hear before we close off?
00:57:48
Speaker
One of the things I wanted to share with everyone before we go is emotions are just that at its foundation. They're supposed to move through us. And grief and the experience of overcome sadness and overwhelming has to move through us. We have to figure out a way. And that tears are a release. And laughter is a release. All of these things are a release. It has us keep moving forward.
00:58:13
Speaker
And, you know, it's so funny because, you know, there's no judgment about it. You know, that's the normal human reaction to loss. And if you don't...
00:58:23
Speaker
I don't know if that is something, you know, I try not to be in sadness and I was figuring numbing out was the way to go. And, you know, that there's no reason, I mean, that's not life. That's not life. To separate yourself and not connect and not collaborate and not be like you were saying, not being part of my children's experience and seeing their joy growing up and giving them that experience of my insanity or my, you know, wonder or my sense of awe.
00:58:50
Speaker
I would just say this you know if you're going through it right now and you need a little bit of hope then just look in the mirror and just you know just do yourself a favor and give yourself a huge butterfly pose hug and this you know it's the best it's the best because you know you don't have to wait for someone else to do it for you you can give it to yourself and then you know if you do need help definitely ask and you know
00:59:14
Speaker
I believe in you and get ready to dazzle because that's the hope for all of us is that we all are here to become and wake up and shine. And I thank you, Kendra, for doing that for your audience.
00:59:30
Speaker
Thank you, Meg. Again, this is Meg Nocero. No, no. Did I say it this time? Again, I said it like a Latina. I like the Latina. No, Cero. No, Cero. I'll say it like an Italian. No, Cero. I'll say it. You say la bella for fa la no Cero. Oh, la bella for fa la no Cero. Actually, Italian is what's on my Duolingo, so I can.
00:59:51
Speaker
Thank you once again.
01:00:09
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:00:38
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.