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90. We Grieve How We Live - With Carol Schoneberg
95 Plays4 years ago
Carol Schoneberg has been a hospice educator and grief counselor in Maine since 1992. She has served as an End-of-Life Educator,
Bereavement Services Manager, and grief counselor at Hospice of Southern Maine— Maine’s only free-standing not-for-profit hospice—since its inception in 2004.
Carol provides end-of-life education to staff, volunteers, healthcare providers, universities, and the community at large. Certified as an Advance Care Planning Facilitator Trainer through the Respecting Choices program at Gundersen-Lutheran Hospital in La Crosse, Wisconsin in 2001, she believes strongly that helping people talk about their choices for end of-life care can make a huge difference in the way families experience the dying process.
Her experiences working with the dying and the bereaved have inspired and taught her much about the resiliency of the human spirit.
Contact Carol Schoneberg:
https://www.hospiceofsouthernmaine.org/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/hospice-of-southern-maine/
https://www.instagram.com/hospiceofsouthernmaine/
https://www.facebook.com/HospiceofSouthernMaine
Contact Kendra Rinaldi: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
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Transcript
Reflections on Death and Grief
00:00:01
Speaker
You know, we talk about we die the way we've lived. We always say that in hospice. And it's the truest thing. And families validate that all the time when they'll tell me about how their person died.
00:00:14
Speaker
either silent, wouldn't share anything grumpy or sharing everything with people and open and in going to places and leading everyone through the process. And I'll say, well, was that what your mom or dad was like? And when they were living and they'll go, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And people don't sort of make that connection.
00:00:39
Speaker
And I learned, too, that we grieve the way we live. Of course, we are only who we are.
Podcast Introduction: Exploring Grief
00:00:48
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:56
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:12
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now let's dive right in to today's episode. Thank you all for joining us today.
Guest Introduction: Carol Schoenberg
00:01:36
Speaker
Today we have Carol Schoenberg. Did I say it right?
00:01:40
Speaker
I say it right. You did. Oh my gosh. I don't know why I struggle with last names so much. And I'm keeping this because I'm like, this is just, I could edit it, but this is like, this is me. My people already know, the listeners already know that I do not know how to pronounce people's last names properly.
00:02:02
Speaker
I'm so happy that you're here Carol and Carol is an end of life educator as well as the grief counselor, and we are talking here in Maine, right now, right with hospice of Southern Maine. Yes, we're the hospice of Okay, so I'm happy that you're here. Thank you for joining us. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.
00:02:23
Speaker
Now, Carol, tell us a little bit about yourself because I want to know more about you and how you got into doing what you do. And then we'll dive into ways of, you know, people, you know, helping people navigate bereavement support and so forth. So tell us a little bit about your life. Right.
Silence Around Early Death Experiences
00:02:45
Speaker
Well, you know, when I knew I was going to do this, I found myself sort of looking back over my life. It was a great kind of life review about what actually brought me to this work. The first thing that I remembered happening when I was about five or six, our family pet died. I was told that she ran away and it wasn't till, and no one talked about it. That was the end of it. No one said, oh, you must be sad or, you know, why are you crying or,
00:03:15
Speaker
And when I was a teenager, my two brothers who are considerably older told me when her name came up, well, you know what happened, right? And I said, yeah, she ran away. And they said, no, she was hit by a car. And we didn't think we should tell you that.
00:03:33
Speaker
So that was this experience of, you know, sort of things, oh, okay. And I had had several other experiences by the time I was a teenager. Then when I was around in third grade, the teacher stood up in front of the class and she looked very sad. And she said, I want to tell you that over this weekend, Michael's brother died. He drowned in a culvert.
00:03:59
Speaker
There was a big rainstorm that weekend, and that was it. As I look back on it now, I'm quite surprised that somebody in the 50s did this, that they even told us anything had happened. But no one talked about it. That was the end of it. And for many years, even though it wasn't my brother, I had this kind of impact of every now and then imagining him floating, being swept away in the culvert.
00:04:30
Speaker
Then, also during this time, I didn't meet my father until I was eight years old, and I carried a lot of horrible grief, cried a lot about it. Shame, embarrassment. I didn't know anybody in the 50s whose parents were divorced, and nobody talked about it. There was no place to ever talk about it.
00:04:59
Speaker
In the seventh grade, a classmate who sat in front of me started being absent a lot. She would just sort of be gone for long pieces of time. Nobody said anything. She turned around to talk to me one day, and I noticed that the whites of her eyes were
00:05:20
Speaker
like pumpkin colored. And I had never seen anything like that. She was jaundice. Yeah, I figured that out years later. And later that week, we were told she died and nothing more. There was nothing no talk. Nobody came in to say, Hey, how are you guys doing? When I was in my early
00:05:44
Speaker
A friend in our circle took his life. He jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge. And we went to a funeral. And once again, nobody talked about it. It was just kind of this thing that happened, but there was no place to talk about it. When I was in my early 30s, a friend in her 70s
00:06:06
Speaker
was dying from cancer and I went to see her in the last week that she died. And she looked at me and with just, you know, very angry and she said, let me tell you, dying is hell. And those were her last words. And so I was just, you know, kind of that was swirling around.
00:06:30
Speaker
Soon after that, a friend in his fifties died and many of us in the circle of friends were around him circling his bed at the hospital when he died.
Path to Hospice Work
00:06:39
Speaker
He died with absolutely angelic smile on his face. What a contrast to your friend. Yes. I was left with that and I didn't know much about all of these things. Later when I got involved with hospice,
00:07:00
Speaker
I realize that, you know, we talk about we died the way we've lived. We always say that in hospice. And it's the truest thing and families validate that all the time when they'll tell me about how their person died.
00:07:14
Speaker
either silent, wouldn't share anything grumpy or sharing everything with people and open and in going to places and leading everyone through the process. And I'll say, well, was that what your mom or dad was like when they were living? And they'll go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And people don't sort of make that connection.
00:07:39
Speaker
And I learned, too, that we grieve the way we live. Of course, we are only who we are. And so all the pieces of, you know, if I'm somebody who sees the glass half empty, I'm going to, that colors my grief, half full, that colors my grief, how I will go through the process. So all of these things sort of, the fact that there was so much sadness and no place to talk about it,
00:08:09
Speaker
And it was clear that nobody wanted to talk about it. So that's a lot of what drew me to the work.
The Importance of Naming Grief
00:08:20
Speaker
So amazing. Like you saw that need because you had experienced it yourself. You had experienced that aspect of that absence of, who do I talk to about these feelings? Like you're given this information in the third grade about Michael's brother passing, yet
00:08:38
Speaker
you're not given any more or any resources, even in the school. How do they support, how did they support, you know, your classmate, Michael, how did they support the kids around that were going to also be accompanying their classmate going through something like this? And all these other different things in your life that occurred.
00:08:59
Speaker
Now, that big moment of you saying of that, nobody talked about it. So nobody talked about, for example, the fact that you didn't meet your dad till you were eight. So that was big and nobody talked about or gave you the real truth about your cat. No, your dog. Cat. My dog. Oh, your dog. I'm like, why did I just switch to cat? Your dog. I'm like, I was kidding. Your dog passing away, being hit by a car.
00:09:29
Speaker
How did that then shift how you now talk about then death? Like the fact that you were kind of withheld that information about things before, how did that shift how you are now of having these upfront conversations? Let's talk about death. Right, right. You know, I realized that the most effective way to work with somebody in their grief
00:09:59
Speaker
is to name what's happening, name the elephant in the room. And, you know, grief and death are so often the elephant in the room. It's, it's just what it is, everybody will understand that either that's how it is in their family, or that's how they deal with grief. And so, simple things like when I first sit down with a client, the first thing I say is, I'm sorry to know your husband died. And then just
00:10:26
Speaker
and just leave, I leave silence at that point. And for some people, it's the shock of hearing the word died because they haven't been able to say died. And some people might find it shocking, and they'll say so. Some people instantly start crying, which is such a natural response. So asking them to tell their story,
00:10:54
Speaker
And can you share with me what happened between the time that your husband was diagnosed and his death, and what was it like for you when he died? You know, just giving, making it normal, and to say it isn't something dirty or creepy that we shouldn't talk about, that we should run away from.
00:11:18
Speaker
Sitting there and listening to people, being a grief counselor is a whole lot of listening and holding people's grief and not being afraid of it, creating a safe space as best you can. And it feels like it, because it is an honor to have somebody share this most powerful piece of their life.
00:11:46
Speaker
And for a lot of people, they might tell me, you know, into our journey together, it might be many months down the road, and they'll say, I didn't know if I was going to keep seeing you when you said, you know, when you asked me, or you said, when my husband died, or when you mentioned, when you said, tell me what it felt like when you got that news, or I find that
00:12:16
Speaker
Not everybody that is able to reach out for grief counseling, not everyone goes into it thinking, I'm going to be talking about my grief. They'll often say, I'm nervous. Of course you are. And I don't know what this is going to look like. And I don't know what I'm supposed to say. People who their mindset is they must be supposed to say something. And just to tell them, there's nothing you're supposed to say. You know, this is just an opportunity.
00:12:44
Speaker
to talk about what's happened to you. And, you know, that I've learned that when we do this, it is the path toward healing. So many, so many things there that I want to touch on further, you, you bring up something so important, this should have this like, I don't know what I should have said. And there's so many should have in grief, like people kind of feel like, what am I supposed to even be feeling and these
00:13:13
Speaker
You know like these emotions of like do they even know if their grief is normal. There's also a lot of should have for the people that are supporting somebody that's grieving not knowing actually what can I do.
Communicating Support to the Grieving
00:13:26
Speaker
So, can you touch upon both of these like one.
00:13:30
Speaker
What would you say would be some really helpful tips for someone? Because this is one of the calls I get most often from friends. What do I tell someone? Like, I have my friend, this happened, her, you know, her child passed away. What do I say? Or what do I do? Like, that's probably like the most common question. What would you say would be the biggest piece of advice that you could give somebody that asks that? Like, how do I do? And what do I say to support somebody that's going through a grief experience?
00:14:00
Speaker
I would say the most important thing is don't disappear and to be to have the self-awareness to see this is scary. I don't know what to do. I feel inadequate. I feel like there's nothing I can say that's going to bring her son back so
00:14:19
Speaker
Why say anything at all? Or people who, depending on what the loss is, you know, we see this a lot with a suicide or a drug overdose or the death of a child, whether it's a young child or an adult child. That's big time scary for people. And typically people go to a place of, oh my God, that could be me. That could be my son. That could be my husband.
00:14:46
Speaker
that could be me and our own mortality is brought up. So it's very natural that people turn away if they have never had any experience with loss, with grief. And even sometimes people who have their nature is to push it away. So there's a lot of bad advice given. I would say, do not give any advice.
00:15:16
Speaker
Any, if somebody specifically says, what do you think I should do? The best thing to say is, can you share with me what you've been thinking about that? What have you been thinking about how what your next step might be? You know, in people in grief, especially new grief, I don't have a clue what my next step is going to be. I'm doing everything I can to put my feet on the floor in the morning.
00:15:45
Speaker
So when people come in, it's always about projection, people that are giving advice. It's like, well, I think you should just keep yourself really busy and it won't hurt so bad. That's terrible advice. Please don't say that to a grieving person. And the best thing we can do is the thing we don't want to do because we feel so helpless, which is be present, listen,
00:16:16
Speaker
Let somebody know. I want to be here when you would like me to be here.
00:16:26
Speaker
And, you know, there are practical things. Grievers, which I hear all the time, I'm so sick of people saying to me, well, you know, if there's ever anything I can do, just let me know. I got to go now. Bye. Rather than that, because in general, sometimes people really mean it. Sometimes they're empty words. They roll off the tongue easily.
00:16:51
Speaker
And so, you know, say to the person, would it be okay with you? That's a great start. Would it be okay with you if I brought your dinner tonight?
00:17:10
Speaker
Would it be okay with you if I came this weekend and mowed your lawn? Any number of things, if they have children school age, would it be okay with you? Is there any way I could help with transporting Susie in the next few weeks? And for the greever,
00:17:33
Speaker
it is always easier to give than to receive. So that's something that most grievers struggle with is reaching out and asking someone, man, could you, I don't know what to do. I'm lost. Could you help me? That is very hard. And I would say any grief counselor is helping, hoping to provide some education for their client about you do,
00:18:02
Speaker
a gift. You give a gift to a true friend when you say, you know what, I've got a pile of mail that's been growing on my table for three weeks. I can't even open it. It's just there. Could you sit with me and help me go through it? And if I have to make a phone call to someone to tell them my husband died, could you sit there with me? People feel gratitude that they've been
00:18:31
Speaker
asked to help in a tangible way because we all know the feeling when someone we care about is grieving and we feel helpless. We can't take away their grief. We can't fix it. And the greever is lucky if their friends realize, I can't take it away. I can't fix it. And that they're just there to listen. That's what it's all about. It's not the clever things you say.
00:19:01
Speaker
And people want to be clever. They want to say something they think is going to be profound and change the course of grief for that person where they'll go. Oh, I feel so much better now.
00:19:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so true. We're so used to fixing things. There's nothing to fix in grief. There's not, right? That's the thing. It's like we're wanting to fix things. It's not about fixing. It's an experience. It's an emotion. It's like we don't fix somebody's love for somebody else, right? It's not like, right? It's like, why wouldn't we try to fix somebody's grief? It's an emotion, right? It's just being there to support them in that journey of that emotion.
00:19:45
Speaker
And part of the why is because we are so unbearably uncomfortable watching someone we love suffer. We just want them to look like their old self. We want them to look like they looked before they got the bad news, before the death. We want them to have that kind of energy and joy for living. And it's impossible. It is impossible if it's a central person in our life who has died.
00:20:13
Speaker
things like that joy for living, motivation, that's non-existent when we are newly bereaved. And it's natural. It's not a freak of nature. It's natural.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yes. And you know, in that, that the person that is accompanying somebody that's grieving, you mentioned something that just brought up a thought is that we also like we miss then the relationship or the dynamic of our friendship with that person.
Understanding Secondary Griefs
00:20:47
Speaker
And so in that grief, we're not only grieving for them and their pain, but we're also grieving what that friendship looked like and the dynamic as well, even as a friend, right? Because you're like, well, we used to go out on walks now all the time, or we used to do this and now she does it. So it's like, it's all these different layers of, that would be like a secondary grief, but for the person that's accompanying somebody, but even the person that's,
00:21:15
Speaker
grieving also goes through a lot of secondary griefs. What are some of the actually, now that we're talking about it, let's talk then about the greever. Somebody that's grieving then in this part of like the how they should fail, quote unquote, what would you say to somebody that feels like they have this rule book or guidebook of like, okay, I'm gonna do step one, this is the first emotion.
00:21:42
Speaker
Okay, let me check this one mark, mark this one off. Oh, yep, I already experienced that one. What would you say to a greever that's going through this roller coaster of emotions? Well, funny, you use the checkbook, you know, the checklist approach, because in fact, there are many people that is their style, that's their learning style, that's their nature.
00:22:08
Speaker
And in grief, we talk about the mourning patterns, the classic instrumental mourners, intuitive mourners, and dissonant mourners. And typically, those all exist in the same family. And when I see someone, I've had people call up about a support group and say, my wife died. I want to join one of your groups.
00:22:34
Speaker
Tell me the top three things that I need to do to make this grief go away because I will do them. Wow. You know, my response always is I wish I could, but I'm sorry. There are no top three things and there isn't anything that's going to speed up the process. When I work to speed up the process, I'm going to short circuit it and
00:22:57
Speaker
And it's not going to do what I hope it will do. In fact, it's going to do damage. I would tell that person, I can hear how difficult this is. But the thing that you can do to help yourself the most is to have no expectations about what your grief will look like. Clearly, you learn right away, the more my nature is
00:23:25
Speaker
to be in control, if I'm a control freak. And I might not be able to admit it, but my friends and family, they can tell me, oh, yes, you are. Then grief and death are going to be much harder. It's a straight equation. There's so much about grief that I think is if this is part of the picture, this is in all likelihood part of where it's going to go.
00:23:53
Speaker
trying to help someone understand that to be able to let grief unfold, that it is always going to be bigger than we are always. I have never seen anything where the person is in control of their grief. And or if they're dying, actually, I mean, people have more of an opportunity to set up pieces of their dying.
00:24:21
Speaker
This is what I would like to do now. This is what I would like to have from my friends and family. That would be, of course, for someone who's able to acknowledge death is coming and to put things in place. And there are people like that. And when you get to work with them in hospice, they're your greatest teachers.
Planning for End-of-Life
00:24:42
Speaker
There's that place of saying, oh, please let me die like that. Let the people I love die like that.
00:24:48
Speaker
that would be somebody that normally would be someone that's like a check mark person. When they are dying, they may actually do the check mark kind of qualities in their own process. If they're more like of that controlling, to some extent, more of the controlling, I'm like, okay, so let me make sure to not leave any untied
00:25:08
Speaker
you know, loose ends here so that the people, right? It's more of that personality, maybe. I don't know. I would say there's certainly a portion of that that is true. To me, even more so is the person that wants to, their wish for themselves is to die a conscious death, to go through this experience with their eyes open and to be a guide for the people who love them.
00:25:39
Speaker
You know, speaking about the sort of control issue, I find when somebody says to me, I'm not doing that advanced directive. Why would I do that? You know, to say, well, because it is a way that you can maintain control over how you want the end of your life to look. You can be very specific about what you do and don't want. And you also take the burden away from your family of having to make those decisions.
00:26:06
Speaker
Lots of times people go, oh, I like that. You mean I can be in control of those pieces? It's like, yes, you can.
00:26:14
Speaker
Wow. Yeah, that is just a lot of information. Thank you so much. It's so helpful because really, I think what I see the most is people trying to support people that are grieving that have sometimes the hardest time because they really don't know like, how can I be there? So everything you've said has been so helpful. So I've taken notes myself so that I know what to say.
00:26:39
Speaker
And that for the phrase you used of what, would it be okay with you? I had never thought of that wording as to how to offer a service. So thank you so much for that, Carol. That phrase helps me because I am one of those, I'm like, I'm seriously here. I hear anytime you need, I'm here, here's my number, call. But you're right, like somebody that's grieving, it's the last thing I'm gonna think of is,
00:27:05
Speaker
calling you. But um, you know, it's like, when I'm dating somebody, something, you know, if I need my lawn mowed, I'm not going to think of calling, you know, somebody else. But if I somebody's already offered, then you know, you could call them to mode. And people, I think, in general, people, they're,
00:27:28
Speaker
They use language that often they have no idea of how it falls on somebody else's ears. You know, they might have the best intention and they're going to say to their friend, you need me to bring some meals to you. And that's what I'm going to start doing and how different that is. Then would it be okay if people choices because they feel they have no choices about anything. They have lost all of that.
00:27:58
Speaker
as they've watched their person going through the dying process and then dying. And they know at a certain point, I can't fix this for myself. I can't be in control of it. And we also, to remember that there are always going to be people, if I say to someone, would it be OK if I came over and mowed your lawn? There are going to be defensive people, grievers, we all remain who we are, who might say,
00:28:28
Speaker
Well, what are you judging how my lawn looks? I don't need you. You know, so the other piece is I need to be prepared not to be offended by anything that happens. I need to remind myself, don't take it personally. Because if I'm someone who takes everything personally, none of this is going to turn out well.
00:28:49
Speaker
So don't take it personally and the removing the expectations, not only of yourself when you're grieving, but as the person that's accompanying somebody that's grieving, removing those expectations of when you offer something to do for them. If by chance it's not received, just not having that expectation so that you don't have the disappointment of like, oh, but I offered her to, you know, but that just may not be what that person's needing at that moment.
00:29:17
Speaker
And the fact is, when I talk about we die the way we've lived, we grieve the way we live. As friends, as part of a circle, I am who I am. So we all have people in our circle that are the person that is the person who would say, well, you know, I offered Mary this and she just didn't even take it. So I'm done with her. And, you know, that's not the person I want in my circle when I am grieving.
00:29:46
Speaker
And so our circles change a lot. And I think as a grief counselor, we can help people recognize, it sounds like this person you're talking about is not a helpful person to be around at this point in your life when you are extremely vulnerable. And what we need in grief is kindness, love, you know, unconditional support.
00:30:12
Speaker
And, uh, that's what we need and to help people understand if I'm a people pleaser and now I'm a greever, I'm going to be trying to take care of everyone around me. I'm going to say, I don't want to be a burden. I don't want to be Debbie downer. I, I, you know, I, I try to look really happy when I, and I say, well, how's that working for you? How's that feel?
00:30:37
Speaker
You know, and usually they'll start crying. They'll say, I'm so exhausted, I can't do it. So that is so important what you're saying, because then for those of us in the close circle of somebody that's grieving, when we realize that what they may be doing is trying to be like what you said, the people pleaser and making sure that nobody else is upset because they are,
00:31:08
Speaker
that we find other ways of being able to then support them in their grief because they may not vocalize it. They may not say it. They don't want to make us uncomfortable, like you said, right? So what would be good approaches for somebody, like for example, somebody like that, that is showing like their,
00:31:28
Speaker
They're okay, they've got it together. What would be a good approach for someone coming into that to support them in that process without it being like imposing? What would you say? And once again, it depends on the person, you know? If I knew the person really well and we had a deep connection and a good friendship,
00:31:58
Speaker
I might say to them, you know, I can't help but notice when we were with so and so yesterday how much you were putting on a good face. And I know that's not what you're feeling inside because you've shared that with me. And what's it feel like to do that?
00:32:28
Speaker
And, you know, it takes a lot of trust and courage in both people. Yes. To have these conversations and they're not for everybody. But, you know, I preface that by saying if the nature of your connection to the greever is such. Like a sibling, somebody or a really, really close friend that you just know very well. Yeah. Right. You've shared all kinds of things. Yeah. And be prepared for the person to cry.
00:32:58
Speaker
for the person to say, I don't think I'm doing that. And then just to let it sit, just let it be. You know, depending on the, every circumstance is different. It might be to say, well, I hope when we're together, I hope you don't feel the need to do that, because I'm okay with hearing whatever it is you have to say.
00:33:27
Speaker
I'm okay with cheers. I'm okay if you're pissed off. It's all okay. That's such good advice. Thank you. It's just really just being also ourselves vulnerable in front of others to allow that vulnerability even back.
Vulnerability in Grieving
00:33:46
Speaker
Absolutely. A lot of times I think when
00:33:50
Speaker
when people are accompanying somebody they're grieving, they think that they even have to like hold their selves and like not cry or not have any emotions at all because they have to be strong for their friend, for their loved one in that moment. And that's not genuine. And so if we're not being genuine in that dynamic, how do we expect them to be genuine with their emotions back with us, right? Exactly. It is such a time, bereavement is such a time where relationship shifts
00:34:19
Speaker
It's the most natural thing in the world. Somebody that I thought was gonna be there for me and who disappears and someone who was a sort of fleeting passing acquaintance, they step up and all of a sudden it's like, oh my gosh, I didn't know all these years we could have had this deep connection. But it happens all the time. And I think the other thing is that we make assumptions that
00:34:50
Speaker
certain that everybody's comfortable with grief, or that because someone's in a certain profession, they must be comfortable with grief. There are some people who go to see their PCP after their person dies, and they never once asked them anything about it. Or they might say, I wanted to, because I will say, I hope you will see your PCP. Have you seen him since your, or her since your person died? And they'll say,
00:35:20
Speaker
Well, no, do you think I should? And I say, yes, I think it is very good just because grief lives in our bodies for all kinds of reasons. And to let your PCP know that your primary care physician, I'm like translating it. Let them know my husband died. Yes. And and if they go, oh, I'm sorry to know that. And then they say, well, tell me what your diet's been like lately.
00:35:45
Speaker
That's somebody that's not going to be comfortable. Lots of times clergy. We expect our clergy to be comfortable with death and dying and want to help us explore. And that's not true. Many are. Many are not. I had an experience recently with one of our additions, a hospice clinician, who when a patient dies, they put a note in the EMR.
00:36:12
Speaker
to say, you know, like a death note or what was happening at the time of death, a brief about family, who's the primary caregiver, what they might think are bereavement concerns. So this just, I thought, oh my gosh, here's part of the problem. So a mother, her young adult son is on hospice.
00:36:38
Speaker
She got up in the morning, went into his room and found him dead in his bed. The clinician wrote, no apparent bereavement concerns at this time. And this isn't unusual. Just because somebody is a hospice nurse or it doesn't mean they may understand the dying process very well, but they,
00:37:03
Speaker
might not understand bereavement or it's a piece that maybe they're not comfortable with. There is not a mother on the planet who would have no apparent bereavement concerns when her child dies. I don't care if her child is six months or 70 years old and the mom or dad is 90. That is always going to be a high bereavement risk, always.
00:37:34
Speaker
Just dismiss it based on what the person did. There's so much education to do even among in the field of end of life. It's not about judging somebody, it's about recognizing there's ignorance about what is normal.
00:38:00
Speaker
And the normal range of grief is enormous, enormous. Normative grief is huge because, and it's all, it's all normal. Yes. That's, that's that word, what you're saying, everything that somebody experiences is normal. Even if we've never seen it, it's normal. What would you say would be things that may have a person then seek for
00:38:30
Speaker
additional help within their grief that what I mean, I, when that comes up is like, if you're thinking of your own more, like if you're thinking of self-harm would be like one big, big, big one that would not be, I mean, even to normal emotion, but in that in terms of like, you're thinking maybe your life doesn't matter anymore, but it's not, it's one of those that needs additional help.
00:38:56
Speaker
It's a red flag. Yes, red flag. Correct. But but completely within the realm of normative emotion around grief. You know, I think when we talk about complicated grief, which in the past just meant maybe I had more than one loss in a close period of time, you know, for me, sadly, it became sort of pathologized. And so if
00:39:25
Speaker
If you feel this at six months, then they're going to say you have a, you know, a diagnosable, complicated grief. So there are many within the field that really struggled when that sort of came to be, because what I see is it's very normal that somebody is wrestling with these pieces at six months. You know, things like if somebody, they, in a,
00:39:54
Speaker
Over time, there's not a hair of movement in their grief, where it remains absolutely the same and very, what we say, stuck. And often, if a client says to me, I don't want to feel any better than this, because then I'll say, can you share with me your thoughts around that?
00:40:19
Speaker
Because if I ever don't feel this depth of despair and pain and suffering, it must mean that I didn't love like I thought I did. It would be betraying my person.
00:40:32
Speaker
So somebody that is in that place for a consistent period of time, their best help, if they want it, is going to come from a therapist who is specially trained in complicated or prolonged grief.
00:40:50
Speaker
And there are people that do very good work. That's the focus of their work. You know, traumatic grief is a whole other piece. And how, once again, if somebody starts from a place of, I'm going to say relative balance and health of, you know, emotionally, physically, spiritually,
00:41:15
Speaker
And then this thing happens. It will land on them in a different way than somebody who has a longstanding history of mental health issues, regardless of what they are. That's going to land in a very different place. And obviously, if any of our family members express anything that remotely resembles suicidal ideation, we're going to be all over that, listening to it, exploring it.
00:41:44
Speaker
And once again, clinicians see everything differently. So that same person who might say, I don't think there's any real bereavement concerns here. They might also, I might get an email saying, you got to get in and see, you know, so-and-so right away. And I'll say, can you tell me a little bit more? And they'll say, well, when his wife died, he fell to his knees and stopped.
00:42:11
Speaker
And I said, oh, I said, that sounds very understandable for a certain natured person who's very in touch with their feelings, man or woman. And there's things that happen to us in the moment we have the worst news of our life, physiological things, our knees buckle. That's not just in the movies. And so sort of helping that clinician understand
00:42:40
Speaker
I hear your concern. I'm going to check in with him today. But I want you to know that is a normal response.
00:42:51
Speaker
Well, what you mentioned right there about also then how people perceive it comes so much with our own life experiences,
Cultural Influences on Grief
00:43:02
Speaker
right? That's what you were mentioning. And then our lore, all our background, cultural, religious, anything else around it is going to play a part
00:43:12
Speaker
and how we grieve, how we support somebody that's grieving and all this. Have you noticed a relationship between peoples, for example, either religious or spiritual background in the dynamic of their grief?
00:43:32
Speaker
Have you noticed any in both? It could be positive and not be right either way, depending on what it is that they think happens after someone dies. Does that play a huge part in that grief process of what you've explored? For many people, absolutely. I think what comes to mind immediately is the person who says
00:43:55
Speaker
They might start off by saying, don't be asking me if I've had any signs from my person, because I don't believe in that stuff. When you're dead, you're dead. And I'll go, OK. And as we move further into their grief, that piece that they were so certain of is a constant
00:44:16
Speaker
Maybe there is something. I don't know. Maybe I will see my person again. I don't know. What do you think? You know, and sort of just helping someone explore that. So that I believe is a, I've seen people get very stuck in their grief because it's a,
00:44:36
Speaker
They just can't stop thinking about it. And when somebody has a faith that tells them we will be reunited with our loved ones when we die, that is, it's always a comfort in their grief. It's always, I'm happy for any client that has that because I know it doesn't take their grief away.
00:45:01
Speaker
but it is a powerful comfort to them. Some cultures more than others who don't really talk about the grief or in the dying time, we need to be educated as end of life providers to respect a person's culture. Don't do what is not a part of their culture.
00:45:27
Speaker
The best thing we can do is ask someone who is a different culture from my own is to say, can you teach me? Can you help me to know what your culture, your traditions, your rituals around death and dying in brief are? So I can be respectful and be the best support possible.
00:45:49
Speaker
Oh, that one is a great one even for ourselves that when we're accompanying somebody else that's grieving too. It's the understanding of what it is that this person believes in and in order to support them in that way. I went to a funeral once that it was of Hindu background. It was a child that had passed away and everybody was wearing white.
00:46:12
Speaker
You know, I was like, and only like three of us that were like in the, you know, American, we're like, oh, my gosh, we're like so not in the right way of clothing here. So so I wish we would have known that part culturally so that we would have stood out like a sort of, you know,
00:46:33
Speaker
But, you know, things like that, that are even cultural traditions that then we also should understand and not see. Like if you go even to a funeral or a gathering, a memorial, and maybe they're singing and maybe they're doing something that like, for you are like, what? That is not how we do it in mind. Knowing that that is how in that culture or that family's tradition, that's how they honor it and being respectful of that too.
00:46:58
Speaker
And not, you know, like, judgment comes into play right sometimes when others are either grieving differently than we do. And we got to remove that got to remove that from the. Absolutely. You know to to if you have a spiritual practice that is about releasing judgment.
00:47:22
Speaker
End-of-life work and grief work is a very wonderful place to be because you have opportunities every day to be mindful and to look at your own stuff. And yes, I think the best thing we can do for any greever is to be respectful, to be kind, to be non-judgmental, and to allow them to do it their way.
00:47:50
Speaker
Oh, perfect, perfect tips. I could keep on going with you, Carol, for a long time. There's a lot of conversation here, but I'm also wanting to be respectful of your time. But one more thing, if you want to talk a little bit about Hospice of Southern Maine's bereavement program, and then that way people that live in that area, or they can even just know what kind of things are offered maybe, or search up what bereavement programs are offered in their areas, and you can talk about that.
Bereavement Support Services
00:48:18
Speaker
I could talk about that forever because I'm really proud of our program. And people can go for one thing to our website, www.hostessofsouthernmain.org, all spilled out. And click on the bereavement link. And we have a lot of brief materials there. We have notices about all of our upcoming support groups.
00:48:41
Speaker
Hopefully, we have everything that will connect somebody with us. During the pandemic, we suspended all in-person bereavement services starting in March of 2020. Didn't know what that was going to look like. It's been incredible. It's been powerful, meaningful. We have in these 19 months, we've completed 12 eight-week bereavement support groups on Zoom.
00:49:07
Speaker
We've completed three healing through writing all day workshops on Zoom. We see all of our bereavement clients on Zoom and or FaceTime. People have gotten on board quickly. They moved right into people that I never dreamed would want to use Zoom or FaceTime. They did.
00:49:30
Speaker
It's allowed us to open up our services literally to the whole world. Oh, I was just going to ask that. It's now people. Oh, perfect. Now that you're on Zoom, perfect. So this is for everybody, not just in Maine. You can know that it's on Zoom. And are you going to maintain this format now that you've seen how helpful it's been even after you go in person? We certainly are. I'm actually living in Illinois now.
00:49:58
Speaker
I am with you today in Illinois. So I'm the person with our agency who will be focusing solely on people who want to have Zoom support. And we still continue. We're not back in person. But our groups, we've had just as many people. They've been, they connect. We have a group two or three times a year for parents who have lost an adult child.
00:50:28
Speaker
And they are there. I mean, they're like sitting in each other's living room. We also provide all of our breathing services to the community at large at no cost. So your person didn't have to die in the care of Hospice of Southern Maine. We will still provide individual grief support and group support. I hope that people will connect with us. And we really are so grateful for the opportunity to
00:50:58
Speaker
walk with people in their grief journey. It's so needed. It's so needed. I still have a relationship with the lady that was the hospice nurse for my mom. And it was only a few months because we ended, anyway, my mom didn't end up dying in her care because my mom, we moved, she moved anyway.
00:51:18
Speaker
She died while she was traveling. My mom died while she was traveling. And then there being somebody else. But it's an amazing service that is provided and the care that people do in hospice and then also then in bereavement service is just such a needed.
00:51:36
Speaker
such a needed service. So thank you so much and thank you for sharing so many tips. This is going to be one of those episodes that I sent to anybody that's like, what do I do? Are you going to listen to this episode now? I'm so happy for the opportunity and I feel like I ran into you on the street.
00:51:55
Speaker
I would hug you. I'm like, I'd probably ask you, are you, now I'd have to ask you, are you comfortable with a hug at this time? Would it be okay if I hugged you? Now I know the question too. Thank you so much, Carol. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. Take good care. See you. Bye-bye.
00:52:22
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:52:50
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.