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The Impact of Artistic Intention (with Anton DeGroot)
182 Plays1 year ago
In this episode of Friendless, host James Avramenko welcomes special guest Anton DeGroot, a lighting designer and central character in James' novel.
Join them as they delve into the fascinating world of becoming a fictional character and explore the profound impact of art on interpretations of love. They also discuss the challenges and triumphs of navigating career changes in one's thirties.
Anton shares captivating stories of his adventures through Europe, including the effects of travel on the body and mind. They explore the concept of expertise versus being an "unexpert," delving into the desire to surround oneself with like-minded individuals.
They reflect on the importance of finding the right community and team in the theater industry, highlighting the comforting and sometimes detrimental buddy system.
Tune in to this thought-provoking episode as they navigate the intricacies of community, self-reflection, and the power of connection.
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Transcript
Introduction to Anton DeGroote
00:00:08
Speaker
Hey there, sweet peas. Welcome back to Friendless. I'm your pal James Avermanco, back once more with a brand new interview. This week, I welcome back to the show lighting designer and inspiration for one of the central characters in my novel, Out of Town, the one, the only, Anton DeGroote. Anton is one of my favorite people in the entire world, and we got a chance to unpack what it feels like to become a fictional character, how art impacts interpretations of love, navigating changing careers in your 30s,
00:00:37
Speaker
So much more. It was so much fun catching up with Anton and you're going to love this interview. So buckle up and enjoy Anton de Groot here on Friendless.
European Travels and Personal Life
00:00:47
Speaker
We just before we hit record, you were telling me a little bit about your sort of adventures through Europe. And I just I can't imagine like the impact on the body that
00:01:03
Speaker
that like the travel has like on the brain, you know, I was telling you about my early mornings, but it's like, that's nothing compared to like, you know, adjusting to like it being a different day. Absolutely. And I got to make that transatlantic flight twice this summer, which is pretty, pretty fun, I guess, to Yeah, four times, I guess, if you can, each direction.
00:01:27
Speaker
The first time, it was for a bit of a longer trip, which was great. I went to Scotland. My partner Meg is doing her PhD at the University of Glasgow. Meg Wilcox, former guest of the Friendless Podcast. She's been doing
00:01:44
Speaker
her PhD remotely for the last two years or so and has never actually met any of those people in person. So yes, she was going there. So I went along just for about three, four days or so. And then she stayed in Glasgow in Scotland. I flew down to Prague in Czech Republic where I was attending the Prague Quadrennial of Performance Design and Space, just a giant conference filled with nerds like myself who think
00:02:14
Speaker
think they can make a living as theater designers in the world. It's pretty fabulous. This is the third time I've gone. It goes every four years. This is the second time that me and a colleague of mine teach our class about devised sonography. And yeah, it was pretty fantastic. And then Meg met me there.
00:02:35
Speaker
We flew down to the south of France and just bummed around and hid in a tiny middle of nowhere town for like a week and a half. It was great. Did you, did you find like in the, in which direction did you find your body adapting easier?
Time Zones and Travel Plans
00:02:49
Speaker
Was it like going from Canada and then taking up the European clock or was it leaving Europe and coming back to the Canadian clock?
00:02:57
Speaker
Definitely going from here out to Europe 100%. I feel like I was done in like one night, like I was fully recovered from jet lag. Just, you know, both times when I arrived in Scotland, I was there for like
00:03:15
Speaker
I think our flight arrived, drove around two o'clock, something like that. Get the baggage, find the hotel, kind of settle in, and then it's just enough time to surface, take a walk around, have a bite to eat, grab a beer, head back, and then just do your damnedest to stay up as late as you possibly can, which is like 7.38 o'clock, and then sleep all the way straight through, and then kind of good to go first thing in the morning.
00:03:40
Speaker
but I got back a week ago today and I think last night was my first uninterrupted good night's sleep coming back in this direction.
00:03:50
Speaker
And that's the other thing, isn't it? Is that because you're losing all that time, you have to kind of account for it. Um, um, you know, I've never, I've, I've, I've been putting off a trip to Europe for years. And, uh, and so anytime I hear anybody went, I have to like fight through those, like, it's almost like those like vagal systems of like, I have to fight through the freeze that I have to get through the, like, the like anger and the jealousy so that it can get into the like connective version of just like.
00:04:16
Speaker
That's incredible. And the different spots you saw.
Theater Work and Pandemic Sabbatical
00:04:21
Speaker
To lend a little context to why you were out there, I want to double back just a little bit, just for context for listeners. I know we talked about it in the last interview, but for anyone who hasn't listened to that episode or who's not familiar with your work, would you mind just giving a little kind of like, who the hell are you kind of intro? Because that really relates to what took you out, especially into Prague and Edinburgh.
00:04:46
Speaker
Oh my gosh, of course. Yeah, I think so what I do is I work in the Canadian theater as a designer and a sonographer. So that means I focus on set design, lighting design, and sound design are my three elements that I do that. And I kind of work contract to contract, whomever is interested in bringing me along for a job or interested in
00:05:15
Speaker
my vision or I'm interested in theirs. And that's really what I do. And then around that as well, I do a fair amount of teaching. I teach a class at the University of Calgary doing that kind of work, do some work with the younger students, high school students, kind of around other theatrical works. Yeah. And so that's what I've been doing that for
00:05:37
Speaker
20 years. I had a small sabbatical around the pandemic when literally everyone in my business was having a bit of a sabbatical when all of show business shut down. But whereas I worked as an architectural lighting consultant, I think I had just started that gig, honestly, when we chatted last time. But
00:05:56
Speaker
I've been out of that for two years now, so I think four years ago.
Leaving the Corporate World
00:06:02
Speaker
What pulled you away from the corporate world and pulled you back into the arts? It was a combination of things. First and foremost, I really did very much enjoy the work that I was doing. I found it quite creative.
00:06:20
Speaker
However, the particular company that I was working with, I found them to be less amenable to how I kind of like to live my life in the world. And I don't mean like, I don't, I guess I don't mean like they
00:06:39
Speaker
were resentful of me wanting to come in late. That's not what I mean. What I mean is that I found there was a real disconnect in terms of values, just for myself and for them. Definitely that particular company, prolific hardworking group of people, but definitely run by these guys.
00:07:00
Speaker
Um, so, and you know, myself, I, I just found it was harder pushing up against that. And if I wanted to, I felt that if I wanted to succeed in that particular business, working for that particular company, that I was going to really have to start to look at where my values lie and start to put those aside and start to like, Oh, actually it's okay. If I, you know, stomp on, you know, the careers of my female colleagues. Okay. You know, like that's.
00:07:29
Speaker
a lot of my female colleagues were leaving because they felt they couldn't get ahead. And me seeing that and among other very narrow minded conservative, lowercase c conservative values and mindsets, it just, I didn't want to be party to that. And so that was kind of the big thing. But also like,
Exploring Community Connections
00:08:05
Speaker
Starting another career when you're in your late 30s was surprisingly difficult and a bit scary. I was able to speak the language of design to many of the colleagues that I work with, but there were so many little gaps in the knowledge, like the process of how construction works.
00:08:18
Speaker
I wanted to go back to work where all my friends are.
00:08:25
Speaker
And these things that everyone else around me all knew, but they didn't know how to communicate it. So I was often always catching up and I was always felt like I didn't know what I was talking about and so much energy. So it was nice to be going to a place, back to a place where I'm an expert. I don't have to be the expert in the room, but being an expert amongst other experts is extremely fulfilling. And just, I feel like I can actually contribute and do something of value.
00:08:54
Speaker
Well, and that's such an interesting, you know, that feeling of like an expert versus the expert. Like it's like, I, I feel like I understand that so deeply in that it's like you want to be around like minded people and, you know, hearing you talk about like, you know, yeah, the work's good, but I'm, I'm spending my days with people. I don't want to be spending my days with like, that's one of the easiest, quickest soul crushers. Right. And, and, and I think, you know, myself included, I've been in situations where it's, uh,
00:09:22
Speaker
I've justified staying in situations because of the core work, but the team around me is not doing it. You know, it's not doing it for me, right? And that is definitely one of those like magical lures of theatre, isn't it? Of the like, there's this built in like,
00:09:39
Speaker
buddy system, right? And yeah, you know, for some people, you know, for myself, it's like that. I think that that kind of burned me in the end. But it's also like it is it is such a comfort if you find the right the right team and the right community for it. I totally agree. One hundred percent. And I find it interesting just how how lucky I think that I have been in my life, like just in terms of like
00:10:06
Speaker
I acknowledge all sorts of privileges in how I get ahead in the world, coming up in the aughts in the 2010s and all that. However, and what's interesting is in a way, my values were never super, super challenged in that way. Generally,
00:10:34
Speaker
eight times out of ten, eye to eye with almost everybody that I was working with. Certain outliers, of course, many of which have left the business by their own choice or not in the past couple of years, certainly. But it was so interesting to be confronted in a place
00:10:55
Speaker
with people whose values were completely different from my own. I mean, not completely, but politically and socially in a lot of ways, and just how they were good people for sure. They weren't
00:11:13
Speaker
If you call them out, they would staunchly defend themselves as being good people. But at the same time, just seeing these ingrained ways of working was fascinating, just fascinating. It is changing even in that business, I think. I don't know who knows how long that
00:11:35
Speaker
that company will be around. There are a lot of evolved minds there, but that's not where I was working at that time. Some great people. I feel like I'm hearing something about that iterative change and how it's like, I think something
00:11:57
Speaker
I've encountered in the past and continue to encounter is this frustration of when you see something's broken in a system, you want to change it and you want it all to change right away because you're like, well, why would you keep going? This is fucked. And the frustration is that you can't because it's a machine and machines don't change that way. If you want the machine to keep running,
00:12:20
Speaker
you can only replace one piece in one part at a time like you can't just dismantle it otherwise you now have a new machine right and and yeah and um and it's like so you kind of have to iterate you know it's that um what is it is it's Odysseus Odysseus' ship you know and every every plank is replaced until the point where it's like is it now that is it the original ship anymore and yeah that's sort of the goal but you know that metaphor is about it being over time right and and
00:12:50
Speaker
and you have to sort of decide for yourself, like, is it worth me sticking around and helping replace each part? Or is it better for me to just jump ship and find a whole new part? Absolutely. And I thought a bit about it and I thought, you know, like, I could have been an agent of change in that world, but the energy that it was going to take for me was going to... Well, not every fight is your fight. Exactly. And I wish that it could have been, right?
00:13:19
Speaker
But it just I felt, I just felt like at all points, it was just it was going to be a fight constantly. And I knew that it was going to ruffle some people's feathers. And I frankly, I just didn't care enough about that particular group of people. Right? Like, why?
00:13:37
Speaker
Why worry about that? I can make social change in other ways. I can commit my energy to similar causes, but in different outputs. I remember actually at one point before I left, they invited me to join the Equity Diversity Inclusion Committee.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I was like, oh yeah, okay, who else is on it? And it's just like, white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy. And I said, thank you for the invitation. Absolutely not. Here's why. And until this committee starts to actually look a bit more like the people you are supposedly trying to prop up with your mandate, I'm not interested. Maybe equitable and inclusive. Exactly. It was so weird. It was so funny.
00:14:24
Speaker
I love it. You know, that kind of leads me into, um, the first sort of big question that I've been introducing in this new round of interviews. And it's this, you know, we, in our last, in our last chat, we, we talked about, you know, being a friend, right? And, and what it means to be a friend. And, and I've, I've been kind of expanding that concept into, well, a friend is somebody who's a member of a community, you know?
Human Connection and Loneliness
00:14:48
Speaker
And, and so, okay.
00:14:50
Speaker
then what the fuck is a community? Because that's a term I'm seeing a lot, being in community, being a member of this, that, the other thing. And I'm curious to know what, I guess at the baseline to you, what does a community mean? And then we can kind of roll from there. Sure. That is such a great question. And I've been thinking a little bit about it since you mentioned it the other day and
00:15:18
Speaker
I, as of yet so far not been able to come up with a succinct answer. So I'm happy that you and I can kind of jam this out a little bit because I'm kind of curious myself. Literally. That's the point of a podcast is a riff. Exactly. Exactly.
00:15:36
Speaker
It's funny because that word does get bandied around a fair amount, you know, in our business, of course, like I hear about the quote unquote theater community or the film community or the dance community, right? Like that's fantastic. You know, and I feel, you know, I feel very much a part of the theater community here in town.
00:15:58
Speaker
But also, the community that I live in is my neighborhood, Bankview here in Calgary. There's a community association. There's my neighbors, the people that live on my street. In a way, it's these very disparate definitions about what it might mean, but it's like...
00:16:24
Speaker
The one thing that actually has in common is that there's more than one person. And that's kind of the only thing I've been able to kind of like put my finger on here is like, it's more than one person engaging with something. And that something can be each other, that something can be a common cause or common interest, can be a common work, can be a common space in terms of like neighborhood. So it just,
00:16:53
Speaker
It's that, so I think that's where I've come to land. Um, now I feel almost in a way, the harder part is like, what does that mean to me? And I'm not a hundred percent sure at this time because our world has become so fractured in the last two years. And like, I've, I still work in the,
00:17:16
Speaker
theater community here. I still create work. I still am grateful for my friends and colleagues. But yeah, I also feel more distant from it than I ever have. And I'm not sure if that's just because of the pandemic is that, you know, because we all took, you know, two years off to try and, you know, survive. Maybe, maybe not.
00:17:42
Speaker
Yeah, and then, and also recognizing that even within that singular community that there is myriad other communities, and that not all, you know, especially in like, these arts or fields, certain community members are not treated as equitably as others. And that other and that comes from all sorts of systemic reasons, potentially, all these other things. So even within that larger community, people aren't
00:18:11
Speaker
Community, let me say this again. Community members.
00:18:16
Speaker
within the community that I feel like I am a part of don't necessarily see themselves as an equal member. And that kind of breaks my heart a little bit. Yes. Yeah. Well, and that's, so this is kind of the core of, I think the, the, the spirit behind the question is this, is this idea of like, you know,
Curiosity and Exploration
00:18:37
Speaker
I feel at conflict with the concept of community because there's this part of me that feels like, well,
00:18:45
Speaker
in one direction, we're all a community because we're just humans. And humans are in community together because that's sort of the nature of what humans are. And it just so happens that the biology of our brain means we can only really hold a couple hundred connections at a time and then everyone else just becomes a stranger to us. And so that feels like a threat. But then in the other direction, it's like maybe
00:19:10
Speaker
That's what we should be leaning into and maybe we're actually pushing too hard for big communities and maybe we actually should be a little bit more closed down and we should be a little bit more unit based, you know, like maybe that would be healthier for us. I mean, you know, in a lot of in a lot of directions you think like,
00:19:29
Speaker
if we were less concerned about the global community, we would have less need for transcontinental transport and trade and goods and services and things. And we would be more concerned with like, well, what do we have in front of us right now for the unit? And so you think about all the genuinely earth threatening issues that are coming to a head. I mean, as we record this, half of BC is on fire right now. And it's like,
00:19:58
Speaker
And it's like, you know, if we were to be a little more insular and a little more closed down and maybe a little more exclusive in our communities, like, you know, who knows how we would actually define those parameters. And I'm sure somebody would fuck it up. But like, you know, but it's like that may kind of lead us to being a little bit more eco
00:20:22
Speaker
forward, you know? So I feel such a conflict with these two directions of what I feel like I would like in a community or in my participation in community, right?
00:20:34
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, that's an interesting perspective I'd honestly not considered. And it's so interesting to balance that between also the human urge for curiosity and wanting to explore beyond what is just immediately in front of us because
00:20:53
Speaker
What can also happen in that, you know, the dangerous thing about that is then the sense of other becomes much more tangible, right? And the greatest strength, I do feel the greatest strength that our species has in common is that when we band together, we can kind of do anything if we actually care about it. And yeah, and I worry a little bit about if,
00:21:22
Speaker
Like is actually, let me just reframe that. I'm curious more about if there's a way to both like narrow and open at the same time, right? Like, you know what I mean? In terms of what you're saying and like bringing that space in and seeing what's in immediately there. Like it brings the scale down so much. It becomes like those global problems, these massive catastrophes that are happening, you know, me riding my bike to work.
00:21:51
Speaker
tomorrow or whatever isn't going to fix it all, right? But that actually might make an impact on the immediate group right in front of my eyes at the same time, but then not engaging with the broader world.
Mental Toll of Global Awareness
00:22:08
Speaker
can be kind of scary because then we can just be like, check, we're done, but we're not actually done. We have so much more. Well, and that's just it. And it's like, you know, and I feel this, like, I feel this conflict about that because there's this part of me that's like, you know, there's so much like psychic agony created by knowing what's going on in the world.
00:22:29
Speaker
You know, like I read, you know, I found this new news app called Roca News. It started as an Instagram account and then they've got their own app now. And, you know, they do just a couple of stories a day and then you're done with the app and they just, it's not a continuous feed. It's just like, it's curated. It's purposely written very,
00:22:49
Speaker
not centrist, but it's purposely not written with a slant, it's just fact-based with no opinion attached. Because the argument is like, the news is supposed to just tell you the news, it's not supposed to tell you how to feel about the news, right? And there's this half of me that's fascinated, and I'm on a little streak with it, they've totally gamified it, so it's like, I'm on a 40-day streak, and yada yada yada.
00:23:12
Speaker
But at the same time, too, it's like, how much good is it actually doing to my day to know about, like, you know, Venezuelan politicians being assassinated or like, you know, a coup happening in Niger or something like that? You know, like I I I.
00:23:31
Speaker
I value that knowledge and that curiosity. And that does spark a thought. I want to talk about it in a sec, but it's like at the same time too, my knowing that doesn't actually improve my day, which is what kind of has to be at the core of self love and self health is like making sure that your, your needs are center. You know, it's, it's like, it's healthy ego, right? It's like,
00:23:58
Speaker
It's like, if I'm going to be able to do anything good, let alone good for the world, whatever that means, I have to first do good for myself. And I think that there's so much pressure to know stuff, because if you don't know it, then you're part of the problem, man.
00:24:19
Speaker
Well, no, I just have fucking bills to pay. Like, are you going to, you know, like I saw this fantastic post the other day that's sort of tangential, but I feel like related spiritually is that former guest of the show, Lauren Malisi, you know, she she posted this this ask me anything thing. And and somebody posted like, oh, I always worry about girls. Of course, they said girls who have an OnlyFans account.
00:24:47
Speaker
And, um, and I'm worried that they're whatever. And, and she, her reply was beautiful because it was like, okay, well, um, if you're worried about me, then how about you pay my student loan and how about you pay for my moving fees and how about you pay for the, you know, the things that I'm funding with this only fence? Like if you're worried about me, why aren't you helping? Right. Um, and I just like.
Toxic Online Discussions
00:25:07
Speaker
I think I hit a point where it's like, I can only worry about stuff and I can't help stuff, you know? I don't know how to help Venezuela. I don't know how to help other countries. I don't even know how to help myself. So why would I waste what limited capacity I have on this sort of like knowledge Olympics with strangers on the internet, you know? Right. Oh my gosh. That's a whole other
00:25:31
Speaker
doing that with strangers. I dip into the comment section. I've never commented once. Please don't mistake when I say that. But I read them occasionally just to see what sort of true, unhinged perspectives are flowing out of these things and just
00:25:53
Speaker
It reminds me, I'm actually not sure what it totally reminds me, but I don't know. It's a pleasurable experience every once in a while just to kind of like dip into that and dip back out and see. So I'm no interested in engaging that. Oh yeah, there's a lot, absolutely a lot of judgment, a lot of wild accusations of terrible, terrible things. Yeah.
00:26:22
Speaker
That's one thing, it's like, why would I engage in a discourse that jumps that quickly to just saying go die? It's like, that's not helping anybody. There's no point in telling anybody go kill yourself because that's a useless argument for whatever part of the spectrum you fall on. What a bad answer.
Critiquing Colonial Mindset
00:26:45
Speaker
But you said something before that I wanted to loop back to about the sort of inherent nature of curiosity in, you know, humans. And I've been thinking a lot about this recently because it's like, you know, we do have this intrinsic curiosity within ourselves. And, you know, as you learn history and you go back through like, you know, great explorers,
00:27:08
Speaker
The tragedy of every explorer is that they inevitably, as you say, they encounter unknown people. And then because they're strangers, their first impulse is protection. And so it leads to violence, right? And I got really hyperfixated on Alexander the Great a couple of months ago. I read like four books about him and just being fascinated by him because
00:27:32
Speaker
he really became this figure to me of like, he's like a very tragic figure to me because he, he, you know, he obviously had deep seated like parent issues and was just had like an inferiority complex. And all he really seemed to want to do was be an explorer. It's just that the nature of the era he lived in was that he had to be a warlord, you know? And so it's like, I feel like if he'd lived centuries later, he would have just been a cartographer or some shit, you know? Right.
00:28:02
Speaker
But then on the flip side, like his conquest ended up opening up, you know, new, new known worlds, right? So it's this, it's this really hard, you know, I'm not, I'm not arguing for colonialism. It's just this really difficult, like, it's this really difficult balance of like, there is good that comes out of exploration. It's just that there is also so much pain, you know, and, and I don't know how to reconcile that kind of thing. Yeah, I don't.
00:28:31
Speaker
I feel like those are such two separate things, but they come together so much. Curiosity and exploration is so lovely. The idea of it in and of itself is grand. It's the thing that stories are written about.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, like, I don't know, I've watched every story. Yeah, it's like, it's about it's about it's about those, you know, exploring and seeing what's out there, but then bringing that old, all that baggage along and that other side of the coin of take, take, take, right? And consume. And yeah, it's, it's, it's a balance thing that is scary. And yeah, and
00:29:28
Speaker
I don't know how we can change that if we can or you know, what's and what's next for us to write like, I remember hearing something interesting not long ago, about kind of the people of our like, not just our generation, but our like, brought broader generations. How did they say it was like, we're too old to explore the planet, but too young to explore the stars in a way. And I was like, Oh, that's really interesting. Because
00:29:56
Speaker
There's certainly so much to discover about our own world, certainly without a doubt. The premise of that comment was that, of course, we will become a space-faring race one day, which we may or may not, certainly. I thought it was an interesting thing. What is it about that not having something to explore readily?
00:30:23
Speaker
what does that do to the psyche of a people, I guess. And also with the premise, hopefully that that exploration is not colonialist.
00:30:35
Speaker
Well, and that's and that's just it, isn't it? You know, I'm reading about like these different different countries who are trying to like get back to the moon because they want to set up colonies there. And it's like Russia just like fucked up their landing. They, you know, they did the first attempt at a landing since the 70s and they fucked it up. And so now I believe it's Pakistan is is has a has a
00:30:56
Speaker
thing going up and it's supposed to launch like this week and and but it's all with these intentions of these like unilateral colonies like it's not with actual exploration or or discovery in mind it's ways to like secure territory you know and yeah and and that's the same thing that's why you're like I have no faith in someone like Elon Musk and his like dumbass fucking Mars probes and shit because it's like no you're you're like until you fundamentally change yourself as a human
00:31:24
Speaker
There's no way that you won't take that with you wherever you go. And so that is a deeply broken man, a deeply unhealthy man, who no matter what planet he lives on will just be a deeply unhealthy man. And so it's like, I don't want fucking Elon Musk on Mars. Leave Mars alone. Fuck off, man. Yes. Mars currently has considerably fewer assholes on it than Earth does.
00:31:52
Speaker
Literally, right? They're doing fine without us, you know? Like, fuck, you know? And it's like, why would we want to go to Mars when we're fucking up this planet? Like, what are we gonna do? We're just gonna fuck it up, too. So, like, why don't we stop worrying about sending rockets out and start going interior, you know? And fix ourselves, right? But I don't know. I don't know. But that's scary, right? That's a scary, like, you know, right? Yeah.
00:32:19
Speaker
I was talking the other day, you were mentioning this idea of toxic masculine culture and how destructive that is, not only for the people around them, but themselves.
Toxic Masculinity Discussion
00:32:35
Speaker
thing to communicate to somebody who's in pain and doesn't even know it, right? Like they've been bearing that pain for so long, they don't even realize how broken they are, you know? They think that that's just normal, right? Right. And it's like, how would you even approach something like that, you know? I have no idea. I truly have no idea. I guess living is an alternate example, is the only thing I can think of. And
00:33:03
Speaker
Again, maybe that kind of comes back to what you'd mentioned about just like narrowing that focus a little bit, right? But if I can, if I can do that for myself and, you know, try to be a better person in that regard, then maybe it'll rub off on someone and maybe it won't, but I guess that's okay. I have a question for you. What, two questions, they'll be, they're a very different,
00:33:32
Speaker
different topics, I suppose. But I think I'm kind of curious a bit about what it is that in the years you have been doing this show. Like, I remember way back when, like way, way, way, way back when, like lifetimes for us ago, back when, thinking you and I sat down, like we'd known each other,
00:34:02
Speaker
a bit, but we weren't like super close pals. I think this was the beginning of us becoming pretty good pals was we went, I think it was the last best, like pub here in town. And I remember you were just being like, I want to start a podcast. And this is what I think I want us to be, want it to be about. And like, this was so long ago.
00:34:23
Speaker
And now you've done that, you've moved cities, I think your understanding of who you as a human being has evolved. Your life has changed in countless ways. And yet this show, even the different iterations of it, has been a consistency throughout all of those ups and downs that I know you've had and that you know I've had too.
00:34:52
Speaker
So kind of keeping like with that show in mind is kind of this consistent point. What is it? What have you learned about people through the lens of that show, through your life over the past six or seven years, however long it is they've been doing it? And how has like
00:35:17
Speaker
How has it changed for the better, for the ill or not at all? Yeah, that's my question. I love that. I think the first impulse thought for me is that I have discovered that there's just so much more love in my life than I ever give myself credit for. I can very easily slip into self-loathing and
00:35:46
Speaker
apathy and all those fun, you know, feelings. And by continually forcing myself to connect with people who I may be afraid to connect with or I may be nervous to or I may be uncertain what we'll talk about or all those, you know. And then we end up having this great time, you know, and I just feel loved, you know.
00:36:10
Speaker
And so I think, yeah, I think that the core has just been rediscovering that there is sort of, there's a bottomless well for love at all times, anywhere. You just, you do have to go looking for it, you know, it won't, it won't always come to you. And, and, and I think.
Podcast's Role in Personal Growth
00:36:28
Speaker
Oftentimes in my life, I have fallen into the sort of like the a little bit of a victim mentality of like, I'm hurting, but I'm going to close off and just wait for someone to notice that I'm not around, you know, and and that's not really fair. Like that's kind of manipulative and and and so.
00:36:50
Speaker
sometimes I'm incapable of reaching out, but then there are times when I can. And I think that this podcast has really helped me learn how to reach out and how to take a little bit of ownership from my side. I'm not responsible for other people's behaviors, but I am responsible for my own. And so if I'm lonely and people aren't reaching out, I can ask myself, have I been reaching out?
00:37:13
Speaker
and I bear just as much responsibility in that transaction. I think that's one of the core ones. The other thing is that it's like,
00:37:25
Speaker
It has become a real comfort to me knowing that like even when I'm stressed and even when I go on hiatus and I take a breather, I know that it's always there because it's just for, in essence, it is just for me. I don't do it to become some big podcast
00:37:47
Speaker
person like I don't do it for accolades or acclaim I do it because like it's really nice for me to get a chance to talk to somebody I've wanted to talk to you know and spend an hour chatting and and hearing their stories and hearing their opinions on stuff and being heard too right you know like it's it's just it's a it's just as reciprocal in the other way so so that's been what always brings me back is being like well this isn't you know success to me is like
00:38:15
Speaker
Did the guest have fun? In which case, cool. Whoever listens to it, have fun. You know what I mean? That kind of stuff doesn't really matter to me. Metrics and SEO and optimizing and yada, yada, yada. Who gives a shit? As long as I had a nice time with my guest, then the episode is a success to me. That really keeps me coming back. Both those things have really painted
00:38:47
Speaker
I think I'm not alone in the struggle to find connection and in the struggle to maintain connection. And I think people are really fucking lonely these days. And I think a lot of people don't even necessarily realize how lonely they are until they're asked.
00:39:04
Speaker
How are you feeling? And then they have to stop and go, oh shit, I've been ignoring these really deep feelings for a long time. And I really love the opportunity to give that space, to hear that.
00:39:21
Speaker
I mean, it's funny that links to like, to me, what community is, is like, it's, it's not about, it's not transactions, it's, it's reciprocity, right? You know, it's like, it's like what I'm, what I'm, what I, what I have the capacity for is what I can offer. And, and then we build that together, you know? And I guess my capacity is like, yeah, I can offer you an hour chat every once in a while, you know? Yeah.
00:39:47
Speaker
Speaking of community stuff, this is something I've been wanting to talk to you for a bit.
Being a Character in a Novel
00:39:54
Speaker
Long time listeners of the show will be familiar with, for a little while I was doing little filler episodes where I was reading out chapters of a novel that I had written last year. It's since stalled out and I'm reappraising what I'm even doing with the whole thing.
00:40:10
Speaker
but it was at times loosely and at times very concretely inspired by a trip that I took two years ago where I stayed at your house and you in the writing were used as the template for a character, which I was so nervous about because as we were talking about before recording, I never wrote with any malicious intent, but after writing it and putting it out,
00:40:38
Speaker
And running out of time before asking you about it, I realized intention doesn't mean anything to impact. And so I could have written it with all the love in my heart, and you could have still seen something that rubbed you wrong, and that would be completely valid. And I would have hurt you in that case.
00:40:59
Speaker
should and would take accountability for that, you know? And I guess I'm really curious, like how did it feel initially to sort of like, yeah, be sort of templated into this kind of like pseudo caricature, you know? Yeah, no, it was super interesting. I listened to that while I was in the south of France. I was kind of just walking around. So just had that for
00:41:27
Speaker
having this like interesting callback to home while I was in a very completely different environment. So yeah, it was interesting. And, and like, I, I recognize it, I think on your, your, I think the show's Instagram feed mentioning something about what does this protagonist learn about blind cats or something? I'm like, okay, I have a feeling
00:41:49
Speaker
I know what this is. And just like how, you know, just how similar it was. And like, I think it was chapter eight and I don't think I've heard chapter nine. I don't think that's even come out yet. No, that was the last one out. Yeah. So I'm kind of like, I need closure on this anecdote. How will this shake out? Um, but like it was interesting, like it was
00:42:13
Speaker
It was intriguing to me just to hear that, just how close to home it really was and just how kind of spot on. I think the only factual inaccuracy is that that character may not have another beer with you, but I certainly will.
00:42:35
Speaker
What's funny is the next chapter is like, so we end up finishing the box of beers. Of course, I'm sure it would. That's really funny.
00:42:50
Speaker
My feathers were never wrinkled. I was never concerned about that. I trust you as a human and as a friend and as a writer and artist to be sensitive to whatever and that whole thing. There was nothing to be sensitive about really.
00:43:08
Speaker
I think the one thing that I found interesting, and this is actually, I'd mentioned that I had two questions. This was the second question. It was directly related to this.
00:43:21
Speaker
If I'm right, the question that the top, the chapter title was something around the lines of like, does Brett actually like me or does he just pretend to be, to care because I'm not, or he's nice or something, something around that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I genuinely wondered if that, if you thought that and,
00:43:48
Speaker
You may and you may not. And I am a nice guy. Um, I can definitively answer that, you know, that certainly I do care about you regardless of nice guy or not. Um, but, uh, but yeah, like I was surprised that that was a, that was a question. Um, and I hoped that, that you would know that you could always call.
00:44:14
Speaker
like, you were like, like, and I really mean that nice. And I'm, you know, I would say this on my graph mic. And like, yeah, so I guess, but I don't know what's going on in your in your writer's mind in that I don't know if that's like a literary device for you. It's, it's entirely, that's entirely fine. So I guess I just I hoped that in every interaction that we've had since you moved out of Calgary is that that it's
00:44:45
Speaker
that I genuinely do care for you as a friend. And I truly do, regardless of any time that's separated and anything like that. So I think that was the only thing that came to my mind is, I hope
00:45:03
Speaker
You know, I hope he knows for real that that's true. And even if he doesn't, that I want to make sure that he does. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Anton. That's genuinely really sweet. That actually hit me really hard.
Authenticity in Friendships
00:45:17
Speaker
No, of course. It's funny because it's like, I do know that, you know, and I think it was
00:45:29
Speaker
It was two things. One was like, you know, the narrator at the time in the book is in a very different emotional state than I am, you know? And so definitely it's a part of that. It's trying to really lean into the anxiety and it's leaning into the dysregulation and it's leaning into that uncertainty, right?
00:45:51
Speaker
Um, and at the same time too, I mean, those are genuine questions I have asked myself, not just about you, but, but about everyone, you know, I recently, I recently reshared a little, I think it was a tick tocker and Instagram thing I saw that was like this guy being like, this is my impersonation of someone I think hates me. And then it's like,
00:46:11
Speaker
hi how are you oh my god i've missed you oh i was just at a party i just had my birthday you were invited but you didn't come and and everyone was asking where you were and are you free right now would you like to go for a beer i i just want to talk right you know and it's just like and and it just felt so real and it felt so like you know because i
00:46:32
Speaker
I am somebody I mean look you know one of the sort of spirits of the show is that like too much of my life I have struggled to maintain friendships and I have been burned so many times and I've and I have burned so many times you know and so it's like I I know how volatile I can be and I know how about bottle I have been.
00:46:51
Speaker
And that's really led me to like a deep distrust of myself that I continue to process through and that does leave me often questioning authenticity in everything, you know, you know, do realization, you know, it's real, you know, and
00:47:09
Speaker
And so I have asked myself that. And then at the same time too, I do know, especially with using you as the example, I do know that that is genuine. And there is an actual love here. There's an actual friendship here. But thank you so much for saying it. That really is so kindhearted and so sweet. And it's always nice to hear that you care about someone or that you're cared about. No, of course. And I also recognize that
00:47:38
Speaker
me asking this question is coming from, you know, something that a work of semi autobiographical semi fictional work, you know, of a small snippet of which I've heard, you know, heard a tiny bit that I have not seen the rest, right. So, like, I also understand, you know, I make art myself, so I understand that there are always other contexts. So, yeah, and like, and it had nothing to do with you at all. I was like, you know, I have
00:48:07
Speaker
my own anxieties and my own anxiousness. And often that is comes
Challenges of Neurodivergent Friendships
00:48:14
Speaker
around, you know, perception of, you know, how do people perceive who I am and how I go day to day, you know, especially, you know, as a person who is like, like myself, I'm very like conflict diverse and very, I often feel even about causes that I feel very passionate about, I often feel
00:48:36
Speaker
too dumb to engage with it. So I will more often than not choose the way of least resistance, which isn't always great. So because of that, I'm often
00:48:54
Speaker
curious what people see and what people recognize. And if I'm being understood, that's something I always struggle with sometimes. It's like, am I making myself understood? So when a question like that comes up about a fictional character in a totally different work of art that reminds me of myself, it makes me ask those questions, right? And like, is there a ways for myself to be a better friend?
00:49:23
Speaker
you know, is the way that I'm, you know, when I leave interactions, do people feel, you know, safe? Do they feel seen? Do they feel understood as well? So it just, it starts, it makes my head spin sometimes, that's all. And I think, I don't know, that's what good pieces are all about.
00:49:42
Speaker
I, yeah, but at the same time too, like, like, thank you so much for sharing that. I genuinely, you know, because it's like, yeah, it's so interesting. Like hearing your, your side on that, because it's like, I, I, you know, I wrote it from my perspective, right? And then thinking through the, you know, and, and like, it is a narrator. So like, there is a division, but at the same time too, I am the writer and like,
00:50:07
Speaker
So every character is me, you know, like it's, it's, it's both, it's both end, you know. And like I say, it is a question I have personally asked, but like, but I don't think I had reconciled the other side of it of like, what would that make someone
00:50:24
Speaker
feel being asked that, you know, like, cause to me, it was more an internal question of like, well, I'm unlikable. Right. And, and I hadn't considered the thought of like, well, is that making someone else feel like they're not showing their love or, you know, like, um, and, and, and that question of being understood hits so hard of like, you know,
00:50:46
Speaker
I know I struggle with all the time. It's why I'm constantly repeating myself because I'm like, let me try that with like a slight tweak and just waste more time. Right. Yeah, exactly. I do the same thing. You know, but like you are, you are absolutely, you know, I want to just say clearly and bluntly, you are seen and you are loved and I feel loved by you. And I, I, I appreciate you so much. And I, I wonder sometimes, you know, I wonder sometimes about, um,
00:51:14
Speaker
Not about if we're friends or not, but it's like, you're somebody I wish I was better at consistency with. I talk often on the show about being really inconsistent about anything that's not right in front of me. I'm autistic and ADHD, so I just have no object permanence.
00:51:39
Speaker
It's only when I get these flashes of reminders that I go, fuck, Anton, shit, I haven't talked to him in two months, fuck. But there's no like love lost in my heart on my side and there's no like heart feelings. It's just like if my heart goes in any quote unquote negative direction, it's purely like I did something wrong. You know what I mean?
00:52:02
Speaker
which is like, which is like not a great, you know, we don't need to go in either of those directions. Nobody's done anything. Maybe we've just been living. Exactly. Exactly. And I also think that there's value in in
00:52:15
Speaker
friendships with people where you may not see them all the time and that there's the ability to kind of almost pick up exactly where you left off, right? Like, I don't remember the last time that you and I spoke, but you know, beyond like over a handful of text messages, right? Like, and yet there's a comfort and a shared history for us to just almost pick up
00:52:42
Speaker
pretty much exactly where we left off. And that's, and I think that's totally fine. You live in Vancouver. I don't live in Vancouver, right? Like that's okay.
Therapy Insights on Perspectives
00:52:51
Speaker
And that's going to be, that's going to be fine. And like, you know, I'd love for us to hang out more, but the world is a bigger place and that's okay. And that's, but knowing that we can kind of like come back to this moment really whenever is, and that's something I trust is like,
00:53:09
Speaker
I don't know when we'll chat again, honestly. I don't know. And if you do that trip to Calgary, like drop me a line, let's hang out. But I know that that next interaction is going to be as pleasant and fun as this. And it doesn't matter if it's in a year, it doesn't matter if it's tomorrow. And there are values to those different types of friendships than the folks that you see literally every single day.
00:53:36
Speaker
Yep. There's, um, you know, you're, you're, you're speaking to something that I've been working on with my therapist a lot. And I, I, I, I've spoken about it a little bit in, in, in past recent episodes about, um, dismantling like black and white thinking and instead leaning into the curiosity and you just said it so beautifully about like, you know,
00:53:54
Speaker
It's not that I'll never see you it's not that I'll always see you it's that I might see you sometime and like and like leaving those doors open, rather than like, you know, because if you close the door that it's done right and you're telling yourself I'm in control of that because it's a closed door or whatever it is, but by leaving it a jar, you know you're leaving it.
00:54:12
Speaker
to just whatever life brings, you know? And yeah, and it's funny because like, you know, with you, it's like, you know, we we've tried a few times. We've tried, you know, like there was there was trips supposed to be planned and stuff's fallen through and all kinds of random stuff. Right. You know, and and life just happens. Right. And totally, you know, I think this is such a beautiful, like, lack of a better word, like case study of like of like of like, yes, staying open and staying curious and just, you know, recognizing that like
00:54:39
Speaker
you know, you can hold love for someone and also let them live, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And also I hope that, you know, us bringing this up is like, just because you never considered from my point of view in that writing, I hope that that won't stifle your thoughts moving forward.
00:55:06
Speaker
Oh, no, no, no. Well, I mean, that book's already written. So whatever is in there, that's already in there. Oh, whatever, yeah. But like, next, whatever projects, like, it's really, you're really helping open my eyes to like, there's not just the internal answer to the question. There's also the external answer to the question. And like, neither has to overpower the other, but they should be considered, you know? And I really love that. I really value that.
00:55:34
Speaker
Thank you. So I'm cognizant of the time. I think I want to just jump into kind of the rappy-uppy question. Sure. And we've kind of been touching on it. So I don't want to say I know what your answer will be, but I feel like I'm hearing... I've already heard some really good suggestions.
00:55:57
Speaker
You know, as I, as I love to do, I like to leave listeners with sort of an actionable thing they can try out this week. And so what do you think is something that they could try doing to be a better friend this week? Oh, what a lovely question. Um, I think what they should do is take a minute and scroll through your phone. Um, and.
00:56:25
Speaker
find someone you haven't texted in a little while. I feel like this advice has been given on your show previously. In fact, I can think of at least two people off the top of my head. I'm honest, they're not just a guest. But yeah, scroll through that phone, pick someone you haven't seen for a little while and just say,
00:56:48
Speaker
Hope you're good. Don't maybe phrase it in a way where that can be a closed interaction, that you're not putting them on the spot to get back to you. If they do, they will. That's lovely and that'll start something. And if they don't, that's totally cool too. It could be that they got your text in the car.
00:57:08
Speaker
And we're like, I'll deal with that later. And then six weeks later, they message you back. I do that all the time. Same, literally same. Yeah. So I think that's, that's, that's something that could be simple, you know, and we do have despite the technology that keeps us apart, it also keeps us connected. And I think, and I would suggest a text message over a call, which is rife with all sorts of like, societal
00:57:38
Speaker
anxiety or for me, I'll speak for myself. But that text message can probably go a long way and just to say, oh, hey, how's it going? Just drop that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love it. Yeah, I think that's that's the I'm going to try to do that too.
00:57:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. I think, you know, I feel really charged up by, you know, because like, yeah, once again, coming back to like the I feel like that happens to us all the time. Somehow we have like a sixth sense for texting each other at like what's a great time for for me at a terrible time for you or vice versa. You know, and it'll happen to me all the time. I'll get you. I'll get a text from you and I'll be like, fuck yeah. And I'll put my phone away because I can't text at the moment. And then, yeah, a month will go by and I'll go, oh, fuck, you know. Oh, yeah.
00:58:24
Speaker
I do it all the time. It's terrible. It's terrible. I love it. So what do you have coming up? Do you have anything you want to plug? Do you have anywhere you would like listeners to find you, follow any of your work or anything like that? What have I got to plug? Oh, gosh. You know what? I'm not going to plug myself. Can I make some podcast recommendations instead? Fuck yeah, you can.
00:58:50
Speaker
Okay, cool. Yeah, like my stuff is fine. But I've been really listening to a lot of podcasts lately. And that makes me excited. Oh, I okay, the one one show, I will suggest that people they want a great little escape from reality, but it's also like a
00:59:09
Speaker
Also, it's like a really well thought through and well-reported show. There's a podcast called Imaginary Worlds that's out there. It's hosted by a guy named Eric Malinsky. He's a former This American Life producer and reporter, and he's kind of done this podcast and he's made a business out of it. Their tagline is Imaginary Worlds, why we create them and why we want to suspend our disbelief or something like that.
00:59:37
Speaker
looking at society and culture through the lens of like science fiction fantasy stories. I'm already sold. I love it. It's lovely. It's really lovely. And if you download, I think what is their most recent episode, I don't know when you're releasing this, but at least one of the episodes that came out in the summer.
00:59:54
Speaker
Um, it's about, uh, television shows that were canceled too soon. And he did like a listener call out and I got to, I got to go on and speak very eloquently about one of my favorite canceled shows, carnival. So yeah.
01:00:10
Speaker
Amazing. Carnival, there was a show. Holy shit. Season one was incredible. I think I might have actually not finished season two because I knew it got canned, and so I was too disappointed. But I'm going to look out for that episode. That's awesome. Yeah, it should be out now. I think it just came out very recently. It's a two-part episode. One is about special gems, gems of shows that people may not have heard of that are quite good.
01:00:36
Speaker
The first half is that, so you'll hear me speak eloquently about that. He is editing this very, very good. And I'll also recommend another podcast called Bellwether. It was an independent show that came out, I don't know, it came out a while ago, two years ago or so. It's written, produced by a journalist I really respect named Sam Greenspan.
01:01:01
Speaker
Uh, they used to be, uh, one of the founding producers for, um, 99% invisible. Um, if you ever heard that, like big time stuff. So, um, when I was in Prague, uh, like I follow Sam on Instagram. So, and I saw that they and their partner Shane were in, uh, Prague just randomly. And, uh, Sam and I had had a interaction years and years ago about something else. So I kind of just like, I reached out randomly, randomly was like, Hey, are you in Prague for the quadrennial? And they're like,
01:01:29
Speaker
Yeah, want to go hang out? I'm like, yes, I do. So, so yeah, Sam and Ching and Meg and I went up for dinner, we had went to see a show and just hung out and just talked about podcasting and about the world and Sam's in an interesting like career transition right now and like trying to figure out what they want to do next. And
01:01:51
Speaker
And she's just this amazing, interesting puppeteer builder and fascinating artist. And yeah, it was just fabulous. Anyway, Sam made this amazing show called Bellwether. I think it's like a six or eight part series they call speculative journalism and it's kind of got a...
01:02:10
Speaker
Like a science fiction frame and then reporting real stories and then this fictional narrative that's also happening within that that's supporting it. I think it's a real fascinating piece. I think people should go listen to it.
01:02:28
Speaker
100 percent. I will link both of those. I mean, I'm going to go listen to those right now. But but everybody else can listen to it when the episode comes out because those are. Yeah, totally. So that's amazing. Thank you so much. And you are just you're just the best. Like I just I love you so fucking much. I just you know, I I love chatting with you. This has been such a nice time. And and you know, I you know, there's this part of me that like
01:02:56
Speaker
doubling back onto the novel for just a second. I was inspired to write it because I was partially inspired by you and partially inspired by that trip and our conversations. You're somebody who continues to inspire me and I just deeply value you in my life. Thank you so much for just being you and doing your thing. That means a lot to me. I really appreciate that.
01:03:24
Speaker
I can't wait till we get to hang out in person. And you know what? Who knows when that'll be and that's okay.
01:03:47
Speaker
And that's it. Thank you so much to Anton for coming back on the show. It was such a pleasure to catch up with him. The links to the shows that he mentioned are in the show notes. I have been listening to Bellwether and absolutely loving it. I cannot recommend it enough. It's actually going into this week's newsletter as well. So be sure to check those shows out. You're gonna love them.
01:04:08
Speaker
Speaking of the newsletter, why not sign up for my weekly sub-stack? You are gonna get free access to a brand new poem, a brand new micro essay, a brand new playlist on Spotify, and so much more. It's been an absolute blast putting these out and I think you're gonna love them. Again, you can sign up for those in the show notes.
01:04:28
Speaker
one last thing before i go um i have started a new separate instagram account for uh sharing my poetry writing so you can follow me at hey sorry i missed you on instagram i'm hoping to expand this to tick tock maybe do some you know of those really fun videos with the music and the sad and the
01:04:48
Speaker
playing and getting the hits and the algorithm and all those things. But for now, it's on Instagram and it is a ton of fun. I've been sharing some of the key poems from my collection First Dates with Pro Wrestlers that I'm hoping to have published next year. So feel free to check those out again. Links in the show notes. Follow me. It's a ton of fun. I've been getting some amazing feedback, amazing love, and I cannot thank you enough for it.
01:05:11
Speaker
But that is it for me this week. Nothing massive to report other than those. So I'm just going to wrap this up here. I got myself a little bit of a cold, so I'm going to give my voice a rest for the rest of the day. But hey, I'll be back next week with another brand new episode and I hope to catch you there. But I'm not going to worry about that now. And neither should you, because that is then and this is now. So for now, all I'm going to say is I love you so goddamn much and I wish you well. Fun and safety, sweeties.
01:05:54
Speaker
So.