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Sci-fi, Fantasy, and RPG Writer David A Hill
34 Plays11 days ago
Known as Mothshade to his peers, David A Hill is a passionate writer of fantasy, dark science fiction, and an array of TTRPGs. We talk about what makes a horror movie and horror in general. Plus living with a stutter, coping tools for anxiety, and what publishers mean when they say "doesn't meet our needs." Also zombies, breakdowns, secret spilling, and Wednes learns a whole bunch about RPG culture and alternative nerdery.
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Transcript
Introduction and Theme
00:00:02
Speaker
You are listening to The Mentally Oddcast, where we talk with creatives about neurodivergence, trauma, addiction, and all the other things that impact and inform our art. Our goal is to show everyone that no matter what you're going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
Host and Sponsorship
00:00:24
Speaker
Music
00:00:34
Speaker
You are listening to the Mentally Oddcast. My name is Wednesday, leave Friday, and we are brought to you by Sometimes Hilarious Horror Magazine. Do find us on Ko-fi.
Guest Introduction: David A. Hill
00:00:44
Speaker
This week, we have David A. Hill, who is a Wednesday's child who writes to share his woes with the entire world.
00:00:52
Speaker
At age five, he started his first novel, a ripoff, nope, nope, homage to The Hobbit, but set on Mars. He now tries his hand at freelance writing, illustration, and role-playing game design.
00:01:07
Speaker
He has had science, fantasy, poetry, and short fiction in various magazines. Co-authored a humorous sword and sorcery tale for the anthology from, that Loconial Publishing? Your guess is as good as mine.
00:01:25
Speaker
ah and And actually, David was also an associate editor and interviewer for Lore magazine. He has one unpublished non-Martian novel finished and at least five more in the
David's First Horror Experience
00:01:39
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cylinder.
00:01:39
Speaker
ah The rest of his efforts are lovingly devoted to the tabletop role-playing game industry. Welcome, David. Thank you for being here. Hello. It is wonderful to be here talking to you.
00:01:50
Speaker
Yay. um We typically start by asking guests to tell us the story of the first horror movie that they remember seeing. yeah I know that you are not a horror guy by trade, but everybody has seen a horror movie at some point. So give me yours. Okay. Well, um I can choose the earliest one I saw when I was about five years old in the movie theater. um And that's if you consider friends.
00:02:20
Speaker
Frankenstein, a horror movie? Yes, I do. Okay, great. Well, I actually was able to watch that in... Excuse me, an original release in the movie theater when I was only about um five or six. And um it was a wonder. um It was amazing. i was just... um I was completely absorbed and... um
00:02:49
Speaker
And Gene Wilder was, um I mean, quickly became a hero of mine. And i just, I mean, it was amazing. um I didn't know, he you know, what I was actually watching the nuances of everything. And it was, I'm an homage, you know, to other films. you know obviously this is my, it's my first movie I ever watched in the movie theater. And, you know, a whole new world open to me and I was thrilled.
00:03:17
Speaker
I'll bet. I'll bet. You know, it's it's interesting because that's the first movie that I remember seeing in a theater as well. I imagine I was taken to a Disney or something before then. But but yeah, I remember that really early on. And like I knew at the time that people were laughing and it wasn't like a horror horror movie. Yeah.
00:03:36
Speaker
But at home, I had already seen like Abbott and Costello running around with horror guys. So I knew that like sometimes horror had laughter. at it I just kind of knew that. yeah i didn't even know it was my horror movie when I was watching it at the time. I really didn't. Well, and a lot of people would say that it's not a horror movie, but it's got horror sets. It's got horrific things happening. They're bringing people back from the dead and there's people that die. So, I mean, you know, i'm i'm always in favor of using the broadest possible definition to define horror because too many people want to tell you that horror things. There are people that say Jaws isn't a horror ah Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:14
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Well, a few years later, sorry, a few years later, i actually got to see and the original armed TV version of Salem's Lot. And that was and that was a revelation.
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's a favorite around here for sure. That messed me up. Yeah, there's there's a generation of kids scarred by the little vampire boy scratching at the window on the front floor. Oh!
00:04:44
Speaker
Even now I shudder, and I have a window right here next to me on the left. Don't look at it! Don't look into its eyes! I have the blind closed, and it's intentionally. I don't
Living with a Stutter
00:04:55
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need... yeah Yeah.
00:04:57
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Best thing for you, really. So just to cover this quickly, um you live with a stutter. And I was actually pretty nervous to um to have you on, not because you're you, because I already know you're great from the internet. all that That I would do something and and ah like that, you know, I was hypersensitive about making sure that I am carrying myself properly and that I don't like, well, because I interrupt people. That's a thing that I do. And I am told that that is particularly irksome to people with a stutter. Not to mention that, like, I invited you here because I want to hear what you have to say. And I do have a tendency to talk over people.
00:05:45
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Well, as long as you're okay with it and everybody out there listening is okay with it, I have heard and had experiences, you know, honestly, every which way. And I have learned ways of um um arm coping, you know, and choosing my words carefully like Porky Pig does, you know, um choosing the easy words. i think that's one reason why I'm a writer because I had a vocabulary from hell because, you know, I needed to choose, you know, words, words in conversation
00:06:21
Speaker
that I could say that meant what i wanted to say. And, um, and the only reason I have this you know issue is when I was three, I got hit by a car.
00:06:33
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Oh, and ever since then i have the stutter and, um,
00:06:41
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I mean, it's not anything I can help. It's really just you know something i can concentrate hard and control and slow down my speech and create a little rhythm in my speech and it's okay.
00:06:57
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ah Excuse me. It's okay. If, if anybody interrupts me, I interrupt people all the time because I am trying to get the word out. And I will say, and this is, and this is, and this is crucial. I will say that the only individual in the world I have a problem with involving my, um, excuse me, speech impediment is whoever coined um stutter as a word as a description of you know the issue that I have because if you have a stutter it is the hardest word in the English language to say and i'd imagine um and I'd imagine that it is also the person who coined the word lisp and whoever that is i would like a couple minutes alone with him in a room to kick him hard in the crotch just once that makes so much sense just one time
00:07:47
Speaker
Well, like so many issues with disabilities that I do not have, that never occurred to me. You know what? I'm sorry. I just called the stutter a disability, and I don't know if that's factually accurate. Well, actually, according to the ADA, it is.
00:08:00
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Okay. Okay. So, yeah, it is a disability according to the ADA. So, um it it seems like a lot of things that that come with being neurodivergent... There is no fix. There's not a cure. There are simply coping mechanisms. And even within coping mechanisms, the same ones don't work for everybody. Is that accurate?
00:08:23
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I would say it's accurate in
AI in the RPG Industry
00:08:25
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my experience. And also the coping mechanisms, I mean, yeah, they might you know work for a little while or work in particular situations, but I haven't found that any are really reliable or 100%
00:08:43
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um
00:08:46
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Or easy. i bet. I mean, I learned a little about stuttering. i guess we all did because of Joe Biden. um Yeah. And I don't think like I've never noticed a stutter. I didn't know that he had one until actually i think the phrase he uses is that he overcame a stutter like it was a childhood thing and he sort of grew out of it. And I learned about it. That's not universal. No. And I learned about it actually because of James Earl Jones.
00:09:16
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Oh, I was aware of that.
00:09:22
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um talking at all and the reason why um he speaks you know as well as he does and with the inflection he does and is because he learned um coping mechanisms.
00:09:38
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and And later on, he made a career out of his voice and not of speaking. And I have huge admiration for him. But um honestly, he was actually the first person who i was really aware of, you know, who had it and who overcame it or he used it, you know, well, I guess.
00:09:57
Speaker
Wow, that's amazing. I had no idea. Of course, you're probably going to know much different nerd nerd knowledge than I have because I'm a horror person. Whereas you're like a gamer, you're more into like the sci-fi and and fantasy stuff. um I'm not ah a gamer of any sort. When I get the big rocket in Tetris, I feel like a champion.
00:10:21
Speaker
Well, I'm not an online gamer. I'm not a um computer gamer anymore. i was in the 80s and ninety s um However, now it's all it's really all tabletop gaming, Dungeons and Dragons and that kind of thing. And actually, i just want to clarify one little thing, you know, real quick, if it's OK.
00:10:37
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When I say I'm not a horror person. um yeah I mean, i read horror and I watch horror um in certain genres of horror.
00:10:48
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um And actually, I mean, Lovecraft, I like Brian Lumley, like M.R. James, i like um ghost stories and that kind of thing. I enjoy um classic gum gothic horror tales, you know, Frankenstein. Mm-hmm.
00:11:05
Speaker
Dracula, Jekyll, that kind of thing. I liked Anne Rice a lot in the 80s and ninety s um
00:11:13
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90s. It is not my point to say, oh no, you hate horror. No, no, no. It's not even that I don't have any... It's not... I mean, it isn't like I don't even have any exposure to horror or any interest in horror. It's it's just I'm really particular with it and And I, and it isn't my main you know thing. I'm even writing a little bit of horror or trying to, and I want to you know learn how to write horror a little bit better. And, you know,
00:11:45
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That's interesting because that's how I feel about sci-fi and fantasy. Like I've seen plenty of it. I've seen all the the big stuff. Oh, sure. And, you know, the little things that people say are good.
00:11:56
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But that's it's not the thing that I'm most passionate about. But, you know, movies and and literature, like music, any genre can be enjoyable if it's done well. There are country music songs that I cannot wait to sing along with. Even though if you said, hey, Wedness, are you a country music person? I would say, fuck no. um I think you and I have a lot in common in that respect. I mean, a lot of the were you know the older country music I grew up with is okay, and a lot of you know what's out now, I just can't. So, yeah.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yes. um Well, and I know that we discussed horror when my second collection came, or was it my first collection? It was one of my collections, and I had asked you to read it, and you were like, well, you know, i'm not really a horror person. I really enjoyed that, though.
00:12:43
Speaker
Well, thank you. it And it's also- hard that i like Aw, thanks. um um Psychological horror and um character-driven horror and kabuki rather than just gory you know for the sake of um you know shock or something.
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah.
RPG Community and Support
00:13:10
Speaker
Wow. And I was so so like complimented because you know I realize that it's an imposition. This is something that that book people do way too much, is to ask their friends to read and review their books, which can put people in a very awkward position. Because if I enjoy someone a lot, personally, i don't want to have to say I think their book sucks.
00:13:34
Speaker
And I'm not always tactful enough to... find complimentary things to say that don't sound like I'm digging for complimentary things to say. If I tell you that your book layout is wonderful and I love the font choices, I'm reaching. I'm telling you, I do not like your prose. Well, I was honestly... It's like at the time when you asked me, I was honestly thrilled um because i had enjoyed everything...
00:14:07
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it's like, I don't know how we became online friends. I really don't. ah I've always enjoyed, you know, reading your posts and observations and comments and, um, and enjoy your wit and I enjoy your views.
00:14:24
Speaker
So, i mean, it's like, when you offered, it's like, it's like, okay, I get to read your stuff and I get to read it for free and own a copy. i was like, um, I was like giddy up. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:37
Speaker
well that's awesome i love hearing that i definitely true it's all true the layout not more nice too but it's all true well i have to say i did not do the layout i know probably did didn't he actually no um i don't know if you know no um h did my he does my covers okay But the inside layout for my long form stuff is done by a guy named ah Cody Boy, B-O-Y-E.
00:15:04
Speaker
He can be found on Facebook. He does excellent work. Yeah, he does. use Yeah, I can't say enough good things about him. And he gives me a great rate, too. Oh, that's awesome. Anyone else should should expect to pay him a lot.
00:15:18
Speaker
Oh, man. Much money for him. He deserves it. um I know, right? yeah so But getting getting into to role-playing games, though, um I understand that you guys are fighting off an AI intrusion right now. how much What do you have to say about that? um but lot A lot of us are, yeah.
00:15:41
Speaker
yeah Like many of my industry my of my interest yeah of my industry peers, I am so strongly against um the idea of AI modeling or the use of AI imagery or, um, um, um, content in published work.
00:16:02
Speaker
Um, however, the area, the area of RPGs, ah role-playing games, the area I deal with, um, we usually write and create our own stuff.
00:16:18
Speaker
Um, it's, it's a little insular and it's, um, Um, usually low tech. Um, and AI is not really an issue. um really as much. Um, I mean, as an example, I write and draw all my own stuff.
00:16:42
Speaker
So even though AI would be cheaper and easier, i don't feel a need really to use it. I pay myself, you know, so, um,
00:16:56
Speaker
And I have no problem on the rare occasions where I have the means, I have no problem paying an artist or writer to do something for me because I know from personal experience how valuable that is. And um I think really as an industry, we are kind of all on the same side with AI. um There's a few individuals who are not really...
00:17:22
Speaker
who are not really in our, I guess, our circle, who don't care really one way or another, and that's fine. and They can do what they want. um However, i really believe as a whole, we're all kind of i'm united against AI and the idea of AI, the idea of AI um taking over the creative process.
00:17:43
Speaker
I think i that's definitely true to a point. I think any creator that i am personally friends with online, they're they're all against generative a i um But I will say, i know a lot of writers who don't see a problem with using an AI-generated cover because they wrote the book themselves.
00:18:05
Speaker
And as someone who also lives with a guy who designs but ah book covers for money, um it's not... I mean... and And I kind of understand it because as a writer, i feel like writing is a skill that anyone should be able to have because we can all talk, we can all think, and that's all writing is. It's writing it down. But I'm probably selling writing short.
00:18:30
Speaker
And then if I, because there are artists that say, oh, anybody can draw, anybody can make a stick figure. yeah, my stick figures look like crap. I tried to make a comic and I can't. You know, artistic talent simply evades me. So the question becomes, does that give me the right to just have visual, I mean, I don't want to call it art. but to have visual content that I did not produce. you know Does the existence of AI give me the right to do that when I know that what it's gonna be producing was stolen from human artists?
00:19:09
Speaker
And that's actually the main issue, I guess, we all have in this industry is that, I mean, it is it is all theft. and it is um And actually, a lot of us also don't really, i mean, we're not really all that impressed with the quality of the you know output. And I mean, obviously, a lot of AI art really just looks you know the same and looks like crap you know to people who you know who are looking for a certain you know flavor you know or style.
00:19:39
Speaker
um and And honestly, the writing I've seen with AI is...
00:19:47
Speaker
um I mean, yes, I'm of the opinion that anybody can write and anybody can draw and anybody can sing. It's just whether or not you're able to do it well and consistently is really what's important, at least in my mind. Yes. And...
00:20:05
Speaker
and
00:20:09
Speaker
And honestly, I've been able to draw you know all my life and I've been able to write all my life. I've never had a problem. It's all been natural to me. um So I probably don't have an appreciation um really that I should for you know either one.
00:20:26
Speaker
um
00:20:29
Speaker
It isn't like I've taken classes. I've just drawn a lot and written a lot and I read a lot and um And AI is is being used in everything now from you know of writing and drawing and making music now. And I and i used to do that too, ah you know a little bit. and um And honestly, it's really all about it's really all the audience now. um i mean, the audience is okay with, you know I don't want to use the word crap. However, it's it's really all I've got right now. Yeah.
00:21:06
Speaker
And actually you can look at it. It's a ah product. It isn't art because it lacks passion. It lacks drive and desire and the things that, I mean, when you make a piece of art, you make it because you have something to say and you found the medium with which you want to say it.
Old School Gaming and AI Boycotts
00:21:22
Speaker
So you use the the skill and talent and experience and all of the previous knowledge that you've taken in and apply it there. And then you create something which then becomes art Yeah, but in general, the people who are actually paying for it, they don't care. And we live in a capitalistic society, so it's really only about the value of your work.
00:21:51
Speaker
um really in the market. So that's where we are. And that's why the industry that I'm in where we call ourselves old school gamers, um and we use rule sets from years ago in the original early of
00:22:13
Speaker
in the original in the original early days of
00:22:19
Speaker
role-playing as a hobby. Whereas you have additions that come out, you know you know, every few years or so. And right now, Dungeons and Dragons is up to addition number five or six. And we're using addition, you know, half or one or one and a half um in our creations.
00:22:39
Speaker
And And actually, in recent years, we've had kerfuffles with you know the industry um the industry leaders, you know the huge companies who are releasing rule books and materials with AI-generated art or AI-edited art or writing, and a lot of us are boycotting it.
00:23:04
Speaker
yeah I mean, that's that's what I would do. i would That's what I think should happen. Although, honestly, I'm torn about editing. um I think for copy editing, ah line editing, you know, that's i think I'm okay with that. Like, I use Grammarly and I use Spellcheck.
00:23:24
Speaker
You know, I've used Dragon Dictate. But no, for cover art, I mean, guess I don't know enough about the mechanics of how, I mean, I actually needed some convincing to understand that graphic art is art. That if you used a computer to make it, it's still art because the computer is a tool. And that's what people say about AI, that it's always a tool. Well, if you watch a person create that you'll probably understand if you actually try watching a video of a person creating art.
00:23:58
Speaker
using a you know using a computer and you'll understand. i married a guy who did that. So yeah, exactly. once Once you see it happen, it's like, oh, okay. So that was very involved. It's just different than a pen.
00:24:12
Speaker
You're using different tools. Yeah. So would you say that the world of RPGs is competitive like between creators? you guys trying to outdo each other? um it is it is at a certain level.
00:24:26
Speaker
um I mean, there's only a few truly large RPG companies, um you know just like everything else in our country. um um And there's a lot of us who are creating work you know on our own independently.
00:24:41
Speaker
And honestly, it's a wonderful community. um Creators and publishers and the rpa it in the RPG industry,
00:24:54
Speaker
really overall... are supportive of one another. um publicize each other's work, you know word of mouth, you know, tell, was like, this guy's great. you know you would love his stuff. If you like my stuff, you'll love this guy's stuff and dah, dah, dah, dah.
00:25:09
Speaker
And it's just, it's, um, honestly, the only reason why I even ah got into this at all is be because,
00:25:21
Speaker
oh and don't like saying this. I want to emphasize really, this is this is only my own experience. Um, um I was writing fiction pretty exclusively for a while, and i've reached I reached a point where
00:25:43
Speaker
where I was uncomfortable with the editors. editors and publishers um were just... um What's the word I want to use?
00:25:58
Speaker
<unk> lot of um gatekeeping and a lot of elitism, um which I didn't really enjoy. And it's also a lot of it ended up being a lot of who, you know.
00:26:13
Speaker
ah rather than and the quality of um oh quality of your work. So I kind of slid over a little bit and. And I was writing RPG material and it was just really relaxing and comfortable and I was happier and writing fiction. It's just that I kind of
00:26:37
Speaker
um quit really with the process a lot of ah trying to get published in
00:26:47
Speaker
um, publishing, um, publishing decent, um, um, decent markets in fiction, I guess. And, and I concentrated on,
00:26:59
Speaker
it seems the RPG stuff more. And, and I've been able to create a lot, you know, an RPG and I, and, um, and I've actually made a little bit of money and, um, And I have a really good reputation in the RPG industry, which really shocked me.
RPG Meetups: Community and Support
00:27:14
Speaker
And um everybody is really helpful and supportive. And i can't recommend it enough.
00:27:22
Speaker
You know, it's interesting because when the people that I know that do RPGs or that meet for, you know, even online gaming... um It reminds me of the way that people used to talk about church, not church, like the religious aspects of it. But we're going to meet up once a week and do this thing that we like to do. And it makes us happy. And our friends are there. And then, you know, in between times that we meet up, we're a source of community and support.
00:27:53
Speaker
Yes, um actually, i I can confirm it is pretty much exactly like that. It's what church is supposed to be, but, you know, it's a crapshoot if you're not an Episcopalian.
00:28:05
Speaker
I know. I am very well aware I've had lots of...
00:28:12
Speaker
i was i was raised in an Irish um um Catholic family, which is why i am currently not Irish Catholic today. Ha ha ha ha ha. So I know that you have ah self-published some Dungeons and Dragons stuff, and I didn't realize that was a thing. that That's like free IP. You're just allowed to to do that and make money from it. is that how How does that work?
00:28:37
Speaker
Right around 2000, the owners of Dungeons & Dragons at the time, they released an open game license which allowed which allowed anybody to use published Dungeons & Dragons rules and a lot of the IPs.
00:29:01
Speaker
um in in any product you wanted to publish. um As long as you didn't use ah certain trademarked items, and as long as you referenced the original rulebooks as, you know, you need this, you know, to play this,
00:29:20
Speaker
um you could publish pretty much whatever you wanted as long as you included the open game license in your books wow and everything just kind of exploded at that point i would think so my goodness Because, yeah, I know once an author gives permission for fanfic, there's fanfic. Now, one of the problems with that is that some of the content is, ah let's just say, not appropriate for younger audiences. does that i mean cause I'm guessing that was immediate. Because in fanfic, even if you have YA fiction, it's immediately like...
00:30:07
Speaker
Hogwarts professors, Bonin students, and stuff that's just like, no, stop it. Why is... Now, it is this does that underground... does does that exist in the RPG community as well?
00:30:20
Speaker
Oh, yeah. There's a couple of people who are infamous for it. um And I think they put... warning labels really on their books. However, there's no requirement under the open license, um, as I'm aware to do so.
00:30:35
Speaker
Um, it's, it's really just in, it's really just publishing overall. Um, there's a couple of people who, yeah, um, they go, um I guess really the way I would describe it is when I was in high school, um, we played,
00:30:56
Speaker
Well, not all of us, however, we were inclined to play kind of rough games with a lot of, you know, just random killing and, you know, occasional, occasional, occasional sex, you know, no reason whatsoever.
00:31:13
Speaker
and um I just honestly believe, and I'm sure i a catch hell for this um eventually, that um so it's not like I'm particularly shy about this online or anything.
00:31:28
Speaker
I think a few people just never outgrew that. And a couple of them are publishing it now.
00:31:37
Speaker
Huh?
00:31:39
Speaker
And I'm not impressed with it. However, it has an audience and it is incredibly popular. Um, really within that audience. And i can't argue the success of it. It's just not anything that I'm um really impressed with or interested in. And that's about all I can say about it.
00:32:02
Speaker
I mean, adults who never grow up are causing a whole lot of bullshit right now. So it does not surprise me. its Excuse me. Oh, I'm so sorry.
00:32:13
Speaker
Well, that's the thing. I mean, imagine being proud of being or supporting frigging playground bully. And I have quite a few friends um who I had in high school who...
00:32:26
Speaker
I reconnected with, you know, out of high school, you know, years later, and I realized they never grew up from high school. They peaked in high school and they never grew up. And i was like, OK, well, have a nice life. I'm not. Well, yeah. Yeah. When you ask somebody what they're up to now and they want to reminisce about something that happened under the bleachers at a football game. I mean, yeah, we all smoke pot out of a Coke can. Move on. um so yeah and it's weird because like for me i went to two different high schools and one of them was uh for in a much wealthier community as far as detroit suburbs go i started in hazel park and i ended up at royal oak kimball so now uh most of my friends from kimball
00:33:15
Speaker
Pretty liberal, you know, not all ah not all of them, but for the most part, my classmates were quite liberal. Whereas the people from the poor high school, where the military recruiters would come for weeks instead of days, many, many, many more MAGA supporters, like liberals from that high school are in the far minority.
00:33:37
Speaker
And it it's so counterintuitive that the people who need infrastructure the most are the most resistive to it. And it's that whole thing with the Southern strategy being expanded to include liberals.
00:33:54
Speaker
And the whole like, you know, anything is better than letting a liberal pwn you. And it's like, we're not trying to pwn you. We're trying to give you health care. Yeah, I'm kind of struggling with that as well. I mean, if you see any you know think of the posts that I have online through my Facebook page, for example, I'm not exactly hiding the fact um that I'm having issues with... you know and i'm not I'm not a Democrat.
00:34:22
Speaker
I'm not anything. I'm actually independent. um However, um the right has kind of... ah forced me left.
00:34:36
Speaker
Mm
00:34:40
Speaker
hmm. as it gets more and more extreme, i you know, i get more and more protective of the people who I care about. And well, that's because they're increasingly endangered.
00:34:53
Speaker
They are. And, you know, I mean, if anybody takes over and there's an uprising or something. i even though I'm an older white male, i you know, I genuinely believe some crazy right wing bastard will put a bullet in my head without thinking about it.
00:35:12
Speaker
But nobody on the left will. Well, you know, the left has been super irritated with Marjorie Trader Greene for so ah tayloror green for some time now. You know, we we've always despised her. her You know, i we have no love for that woman.
00:35:30
Speaker
But she hasn't needed private security following her everywhere until people on the right started hating her. That's correct. Yeah, I ordered a thing of dog food because I was going to go pick up a puppy tomorrow. I know. after Well, I talked to my friend about it who is like a, you know, a kennel club kind of breeder person. And she was like, yeah, what you're describing sounds like a backyard breeder. You should not get that dog. Oh, no.
00:35:58
Speaker
Yeah, I was bummed. They were so cute. And that's that's a backyard breeder thing. And they said, like, 10 to 1, if I show up, those dogs in the pictures would not be available, and they would try to show me other dogs. Oh, God. And they're people that insist on cash payments.
00:36:14
Speaker
So you have no recourse if you get, like, I don't know what a defective dog would be, but I'm sure there are some. Because, you know. Well, i mean, I guess a dog, a puppy that hasn't been vetted for health, you know?
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah. Because she, the lady I was talking to showed me a um She sent me a photo of the veterinary thing that was supposed to prove that they had had their shots. Yeah. And it didn't have the little stickers on it. It was just handwritten.
00:36:41
Speaker
shit. And when you take an animal in to get shots, like I knew that because I'm not a dog person. I've never had my own dog before, but I had cats. so Yeah, I've got six. Okay, so you know that you take them in to get shots. They pull the little sticker off the vial and they put it there on the paper as proof that you vaccinated.
00:37:00
Speaker
That does not sound legit at all. I am so sorry. Well, it sucks. But, you know, it and occurred to me, i've I've said this online, that, like, November is a very stupid time to be looking for a puppy because you're competing with everybody who wants one for Christmas. Oh, yeah, i guess so. And that chances are in March I would have much better luck when people are surrendering their puppies because they realize that, like, when I was a kid, there was a Christmas Christmas where everybody got Dalmatians because of a Disney thing that happened. Like all these people were getting Dalmatians. I remember.
00:37:37
Speaker
And when Harry Potter came up, kids wanted owls. Oh, shit. Parents were legit buying their children an owl. Like, what is the matter with you? That is a living thing. Okay, I didn't know people were actually... i didn't... Okay, I didn't realize people actually got owls. I know people wanted them. I didn't know they actually received them. Where the hell do you go buy an owl?
00:37:59
Speaker
I really could not say. I mean, I remember finding out at one point that technically all the animals in the zoo were for sale, but I i don't know anybody wealthy enough to be engaging in that.
00:38:11
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, I'd love an owl. I think owls are great, but... Yeah, I don't know if an owl would love living with us, is the thing about that. Yeah, well, I care about, you know, the animals...
00:38:24
Speaker
You know, exactly as living creatures, not as, you know, ah possessions. So, yeah, I would never i would never have an owl, even though even though I would so ah want one. I love owls.
00:38:37
Speaker
Yeah. And well, there's so many animals that I wish they could like shrink tiny so we could like have them as pets. But and there's a novel Jurassic Park because in the novel Jurassic Park, there's a tiny elephant.
00:38:51
Speaker
Oh, no, I haven't read it. papa but The animals I want are already, you know, nice and small and cuddly. I mean, I want a red panda so bad I could, you know, explode. But one I've heard or read, not that I've researched it because I've been planning on having one, but you I was reading that they are horrible pets, um probably worse really than raccoons. And, um you know, and also where am I going to get a red panda anyway?
00:39:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure they're costly and not going to be legal in every state. You know, I live in West Virginia where you can have whatever the hell you want, really. Well, that's the thing. Like, I found out that there are more tigers in captivity in the United States than there are in like some continents where they are wild.
00:39:42
Speaker
Yeah. And all I could say to that is stop it. USA, USA. Everyone who is in possession of a tiger in America that's not a zoo or a refuge, stop it. Well, we had that guy in Ohio that had an animal. I don't even know if you'd call it a refuge. He just had a whole bunch of animals. Yeah, he had.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah. And he decided to self-unalive and release all of his animals. So there's people driving down I-75 like, ah yeah, there's, hi, 911, there's an African male lion in the road. I don't, I'm not drunk. there There is a lion in the road.
00:40:22
Speaker
you know This is America. I'd believe any animal anywhere at this point. Honestly, this is America for fuck's sake. I mean, nobody tells us no. Nobody tells us we can't have something or just, you know.
00:40:37
Speaker
Don't you oppress me by making me obey laws. I know we love lawsuits. Oh, my gosh. We love lawsuits. Money, money, money. Yummy.
00:40:48
Speaker
ah Anyway, we got a little bit off. Sorry. A little, just a little. Now I'm actually aware that you live with chronic anxiety and I don't know If quote unquote chronic anxiety is in itself a diagnosis or if we're just talking about anxiety that you have a lot like in a colloquial way.
David's Journey with Anxiety and Depression
00:41:10
Speaker
Well, I can address that pretty easily. Please. OK. I've had chronic anxiety. I've had depression all my life and I was not aware of it um really up until about maybe maybe 15 years ago when I actually went, you know,
00:41:29
Speaker
to the doctor because i was, um,
00:41:34
Speaker
and we had, to it's like early you asked about coping mechanisms and, um, And I've been coping all my life without really realizing it. And I i reached a point where I could not cope anymore and had, guess, guess she would um call it a breakdown and I ended up at the doctor and, um, um, and I was at, and I was actually diagnosed officially with chronic anxiety and depression and, um, um, put on medication and, and here I am.
00:42:08
Speaker
wow So it's um it's real, i guess. And I've had it all my life, apparently, because and they asked me a bunch of questions and um they asked me if I've ever been happy or if I've always had... What's the earliest you know I've had this happen or this feeling? And it was always...
00:42:34
Speaker
so i don't Have you ever been happy is a rather stunning question to be asked. Well, um okay, they asked me... mean, was actually, if I remember correctly, it was actually the doctor's opening question. Wow.
00:42:54
Speaker
And I broke down and cried. I couldn't even answer. wow. So it was at that point that they realized maybe maybe he's got chronic anxiety depression because he can't even answer the question. He broke down and cried. OK, so chronic anxiety is the diagnosis. It is the diagnosis. I've got it in writing.
00:43:17
Speaker
yeah that um and And so the medication, um what is that meant to be tackling? Does it make you less anxious or less depressed?
00:43:29
Speaker
Okay. um Well, I've actually gone through a few medications. um yeah Apparently... you I learned um really early on with the medication that one, i have a very strong resistance um to a lot of medications. So either they don't work on me or they only work on me for a little while and I metabolize them to the point where but doesn't do anything anymore and I have to get higher doses and higher doses. And after a while, it's just not worth it because of the terrible side effects. So eventually I was able to get a cocktail of medication that, um,
00:44:07
Speaker
takes
00:44:11
Speaker
on the edge off and helps me, um, helps me focus and concentrate on, um, on the issues I'm having or whatever I'm, whatever I'm in the middle of. Um, it's not like it cures,
00:44:34
Speaker
in know anything And it's not like it makes me happy or anything. It's just that it takes the intensity and lowers it some. And it's easier to cope with and every once in a while ignore.
00:44:51
Speaker
um Is really the easiest way I can describe it. Okay. No, that makes a lot of sense to me. Cause I take a mood stabilizer. So it's really just the intention is to not have the, the dizzying highs and the catastrophic lows, but yeah. And I was worried at first challenge and I was worried at first because i um, I was worried in the alteration of my brain chemistry.
00:45:23
Speaker
Um, I was worried that I would you lose my, um, um, creativity. Um, You lose my genius.
00:45:33
Speaker
um And i can honestly say really at first, yeah, I kind of struggled with that um as I transitioned.
00:45:45
Speaker
um you know ah As I transitioned through the medications, um I had a lot of trouble with concentrating on you know my projects and coming up.
00:45:59
Speaker
with ideas for my projects. Um, however, once I adjusted and everything kind of leveled out, um you know, I was
00:46:11
Speaker
ah back in action. Um, however, the difference is that really all my life when I've had ideas or concepts for anything, it's like, it's like they come in, it's almost like a, um, fireworks display.
00:46:28
Speaker
it's like, I'll have an idea and it pops over here. and and almost immediately afterwards, it's like I'll have an idea that relates to that idea or comes off of that idea and it pops, pops, pops, pops over here.
00:46:41
Speaker
and it just explodes over here and here, here, there, there, there, there. there And i have to write them all down really quickly so I can, you know, read them later on and remember, you know, what I was actually thinking or I will lose a lot of it you it just, or after a while, or after a while I'll have an idea and I'll think, eh, it wasn't a great idea in the first place. and i don't think anybody will really, um, um, will really have an interest in that or, and then a year later I'll be out shopping and, you know, I'll be looking at RPG books or something. And I will see a book that's like exactly the idea that I had. And this person decided, Hey, I had this good idea and I'm going to run with it. And I, and I didn't,
00:47:28
Speaker
And it's been published and people are actually purchasing it. And I was like, oh, damn it. yeah And honestly, that happened enough that I now just write everything down and try and create, you know, and actually complete a project, which is the hardest thing in the world.
00:47:45
Speaker
um And it's um and really the medication has helped me to work on a project all the way through, i guess, is really.
00:47:59
Speaker
It's only the main advantage. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. All right. Now your, your tale actually reminds me of something. This is kind of a secret. I don't talk about this much. Um, it's okay. I don't tell anybody.
00:48:12
Speaker
Nobody listens to this show. They'll never find out. um No, in the 90s, like the mid, maybe 94, 95-ish, when I first ah went no contact with my family, my boyfriend was an alcoholic ah surrounded by guns. So I was thinking about guns all the time. And that was when I started writing my zombie novel, which didn't get finished and published until 2012. That makes sense.
00:48:42
Speaker
Right. So um so I had started writing this zombie novel and it was my whole like I it at the time thought it would be my first novel. It wasn't. um My first novel was a NaNoWriMo called A Stabbing for safety Sadie. But the the title of my initial effort at a zombie novel was The Walking Dead.
00:49:04
Speaker
What a great title. i know. Nobody better fucking steal it. No. It's really simple. It's it's exactly to the point. It's like you read and you know exactly what you're in for. That's brilliant.
00:49:18
Speaker
And it was like a double entendre because like not only were there zombies, but like the people themselves were like... you know, everything was, was gone. And in a way that was a kind of death. And it was so metaphorical. Cause I'm so goddamn smart. I know. And you know what? I wouldn't let Greg Nicotero near my shit. I probably, well, and it sucks too, because i want to be, I want one of my stories to be in the creep show TV series. So bad. oh that would be awesome.
00:49:50
Speaker
Right. But if I ever met Greg Nicotero, there's no way. Yeah. It's some sort of bad comment about his treatment of Dale Horvath would just come flying out of my mouth. Like, no, no, because God damn it. If you are fighting a zombie, like you are in physical fisticuffs, trying to keep a zombie off you.
00:50:11
Speaker
If you keep its choppers away from you, if it cannot bite you, you win. And when they killed Dale, who is my, he, at the time he was my favorite character on the walking dead.
00:50:23
Speaker
And when they killed him, a zombie that couldn't even pull itself out of a mud puddle ripped out its guts with its but with his like bony zombie fingers.
00:50:33
Speaker
Well, I will admit that I have never watched Walking Dead or or read the graphic novels. And I will say that that is one genre of horror that I really hate. I hate ah heeds a zombie horror.
00:50:52
Speaker
I mean, I watched it in the 80s, you know, the classic, you know, Night of Living Dead. And that I guess I just have an guess I just have an issue of watching people eat people. Well, I mean, that's that's fair. Not wanting to watch people get eaten alive is a is a reasonable thing to say.
00:51:08
Speaker
And, you know, it's just mean, that I mean, that one thing i just have.
00:51:17
Speaker
it just makes me not It just makes me not enjoy everything else. And also... If you absolutely understand where you're coming from, um Frank Darabont elevated the genre. That's what he does. He elevates genre. That's why The Mist is a B-movie, and it'll blow your freaking mind and make you cry and but in part. Right. and I've also lost interest in genres because i mean, they're overplayed, in my opinion. I mean, i mean, it's not I mean, it's just zombies.
00:51:46
Speaker
Well, I honestly believe that there's way too much zombie stuff. it's also vampires and i believe Anne Rice, you know, single-handedly elevated that genre in the eighties. And, that's the only reason why I was even interested in vampires in the eighties and nineties cause Anne Rice. And, you know, now I'm like, I hate vampires. I'm just so tired of them. And, um, and I guess that's, you know, just, um,
00:52:13
Speaker
I guess that's really the reason why i create as often as I do and as largely as I do is because I'm just tired of everything around me.
00:52:27
Speaker
Well, it's easy to get bored when things become repetitive. I actually had an opportunity to ask ah the writer Jonathan Mayberry about whether or not he felt that the zombie subgenre was oversaturated. Oh. And and when would it stop?
00:52:43
Speaker
Because, you know, he writes in that genre. He writes a lot of YA. I'm sure you're right. at least vaguely familiar with with Mr. Mayberry. I've heard of him, yeah. and And what he had said, very simply, was people will stop writing about zombies when people run out of things to say about that.
00:52:59
Speaker
And because zombies are one of the most, um I guess, easily like like metaphorical, you you can say so many things about humanity and society through the zombie genre that I don't know that we'll run out of even if we run out of unique, fresh, topical things to say, we're not going to run out of people that want to say things because the hubris of a film director will, will never die.
00:53:32
Speaker
no we'll always have that. But I, I really do think that even though the, the, the first season of the walking dead is going to have people getting at, I mean, that's, that's definitely a thing that happens. Um, um,
00:53:48
Speaker
I would say that if you gave the first two episodes of viewing, you would find yourself impressed and you might find yourself wanting to overlook the, the undead cannibals just to continue. i I rarely burst into tears watching zombie cinema, but the walking dead will, will make you do that.
00:54:11
Speaker
There's one family in particular that isn't the main family. um But yeah, when when you get to a kid called Daryl, prepare to have your heart broken. And off to overlook all the mowed lawns as well.
00:54:24
Speaker
ah ah Yeah, you you might. You might. You know, I haven't actually checked that, but that that is a thing. um And it's interesting because when you watch ah a lot of zombie movies, one of the first things you notice is there's a whole bunch of fires.
00:54:40
Speaker
And that always seems so weird to me, but it's true because when people panic, you are going to have more fires. Yes. And when people are just suddenly fighting, you know, car accidents, whatever fires are going to be. It's kind of like when you go up in an airplane and your first the first thing you think of is like, wow, a lot of people have pools.
00:55:01
Speaker
Like, I will live in my neighborhood that I live in. i will say, though, that i absolutely believe that in my neighborhood, my neighbors would actually be mowing their lawn in the middle of a zombie apocalypse. yeah because These people are just law Nazis. I mean, they're out there all the time. i They were out there last week.
00:55:22
Speaker
Oh, sure. I mean, the dead are rising from their graves, but that's no excuse for unkempt grass. Now, is it? These people love mowing your fork. Oh my god, it's like a fetish or something for these people.
00:55:36
Speaker
Well, if and if you've got an HOA, that could very well be required. Because, yeah. Yes, I do, but these people... Pitchforks and fines. Yes, I do, but these people go way above, way beyond.
00:55:51
Speaker
umm Okay, I want to definitely talk about your fiction. Because... you are writing fiction. So let me ask you this, first of all, um as someone with anxiety, I'm guessing that you, like most writers, the fiction is a way to to work through that. But what I'm wondering is, do you find yourself apprehensive about submitting your writing because of the anxiety? And does that play into your process at all?
00:56:23
Speaker
Hmm. Okay. Okay.
00:56:27
Speaker
Okay, the answer for that is easy, and I have a feeling the answer is going to be kind of not what you usually hear, or at least not what I usually hear.
00:56:42
Speaker
um Okay, anxiety for submitting my work. I don't have any anxiety whatsoever.
00:56:54
Speaker
I don't have any expectations and i don't have any issue with rejection. um it's just, I am lazy as fuck. And i have a hard time researching places that would probably be interested in my manuscript.
00:57:14
Speaker
And then, and here's, here's, here's really the problem I have writing a synopsis. oh god i hate putting the press packet together man or the pitch packet hate it that's the only the only anxiety i have and the whole process of writing and publishing is writing my synopsis for my story um because if i wanted to explain what happened in two paragraphs i wouldn't have written a whole ass novel
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah. And I honestly have issues with determining what is what is important to the reader in my story yet is not, um you know, is not is not too much information.
00:58:10
Speaker
hmm. Yeah. That was always stuff for me was right. And the yeah you always feel like you don't want reveal a twist or a thing or, you know, right um and I have a problem with that. And so the issue I have with actually trying to get my work out there is the work of trying to get my work out there. And I wish I had an agent. I would kill to have an agent. I would say, here's all the stuff.
00:58:40
Speaker
You do your thing. i mean, that would be fantastic. And I would just sit and I would just write my ass off and just keep cranking out stuff. And you sell it because that's what you do. That's not what I do. I cannot sell.
00:58:56
Speaker
i hate selling. i hate i hate marketing. i hate all of it. I just want to write. So... honestly, more often than not, I will write and I will not actually, i will not actually submit, um, really what I write. Um, I will, i will look, I say I look for opportunities and, and I have weirdly enough, I have a following.
00:59:27
Speaker
I actually, um it's like I've been online since the early days and, um, And I have shared my writing with people, you know, all over the place. I don't have any problem hosting an excerpt or something on my page. I don't care. I'm not worried about it.
00:59:46
Speaker
Um, and as a result, I now have a whole lot of people who really interested my writing and actually, and actually you follow me because of my writing, excuse me. And, um,
01:00:01
Speaker
And I'll admit early on, I didn't know if I was any good. So I posted it online because i mean, where else are you? Where else you really likely to get so much input that is completely honest and absolutely, and absolutely um a brutal.
01:00:21
Speaker
And I have never had anybody say I suck.
01:00:27
Speaker
So I've got no problem with that. And and if you if you suck, the Internet would would tell you for sure. They they can't wait to tell people that they suck. Right. And also i and also when I was, you know, when I was an associate editor for a year or two. It's like it's like I had to reject people.
01:00:47
Speaker
A lot of people. Okay. And I know exactly, i know why rejections happen. It's usually because, and exactly as it's written in the rejection, it's not what they're looking for.
01:00:58
Speaker
mean, it's not like you suck. It's like you, you were one of a hundred, um, um, um, he says I read in the last, in the last half hour.
01:01:14
Speaker
And, you know, I was only allowed to pick, you know, three, And yours was good. However, it's not it's not exactly what we wanted. And there were three people who wrote nearly exactly what we wanted at the time. That's the only reason why they were picked.
01:01:32
Speaker
Yeah, and and I didn't have a full appreciation for that until sometimes hilarious horror. Because the first magazine that I ran, ah we it was a ah monthly.
01:01:43
Speaker
And we could put, I think, five or six stories in every issue. Right now we're quarterly, and we max out at eight stories per issue. plus you know Plus mine. I don't count mine because I don't get paid.
01:01:57
Speaker
but for for budgetary reasons but like when we first started we got very few submissions because we were nobody yeah and uh so if i'm looking through five submissions and i wanna you know i see one thing that's great and three things that are promising and one thing that really doesn't work for us i want to work with all the promising people and and see if they want to you know edit the edit their story with me and and like really sharpen it and bring it up to snuff. And it was great to be able to do that. And now I've got 200 submissions and sitting in my inbox and i can pick eight stories for the next issue. So a lot of them are just sitting there because I don't want to just go through and be like, no, no, no, no. no
01:02:42
Speaker
Yep. But I also don't want people to have to wait six months for a reply. So the whole thing is just like, and I find myself saying things like, this does not meet our needs at this time. And, you know, and it's like, if I, find Yeah. And that's the thing is it's not bullshit and it can feel like bullshit when you receive it from someone. Yeah. A lot of writers myself being like, Oh, well, what are your needs at the present time? Dick. Well, usually if you look on the website, they will tell you what they like.
01:03:14
Speaker
Yep. Usually a web, usually a publisher who has a website, usually, usually they'll have a section that says, here's what we like.
01:03:27
Speaker
Here's what we're looking for. Here's what we absolutely do not want. And it's all up to you now. Well, and a good way to find out what kind of fiction they publish is to buy an issue or two and read it. And that's the thing. Like I have not sold one issue.
01:03:46
Speaker
um ah Like each issue has not sold the amount of of submissions I have in my inbox. Most of these people have never read us before. Because our readership is is compact enough that and I get all the reports. So I know who's reading our magazine and who's paying and who's a monthly subscriber. And it's not most of the people in my inbox, which is not to say like, oh, no, how dare you submit? But like, I understand why a lot of small publications charge reading fees. And I would never want to do that.
01:04:19
Speaker
But we'd break even if I charge like $2 to read your story. we would god yeah you know We would have enough money to fund the magazine. And for writers, it's kind of like a gamble because we pay $25 per story. So it's like, well, do I send $2 and hopefully get $25 back and get published? or you know do I say, no, I'm going to submit to magazines that pay a royalty share?
01:04:45
Speaker
Like, well, I mean, i ran a magazine for somebody else that paid a royalty share. And in 18 months, I think I made about $200. So that didn't really... got so that didn't really ah you know, go my way. so if we're being, if we're being you know absolutely honest, um the one story that I had published in a magazine um it's actually my first um short story I had published in an actual magazine. um I'm pretty sure that I made $250 that story.
01:05:26
Speaker
nice Was that a royalty share or a straight payment? Straight payment. yeah And I was like, I was like, if I could do this regularly, I could actually live.
01:05:41
Speaker
but I can't do this. OK, I can do this regularly. It's just I'm not. Well, you need a place to that will, you know, do it. It's not about creating the work. It's finding a place to put it where people will pay for it and see it. And, you know, all that, as you describe, that's that's why people have agents.
01:06:01
Speaker
I really want I really if there's an agent out there somewhere who would be even slightly interested in me as a client, please let me know.
01:06:12
Speaker
Well, you are shopping around a novel right now, though, right? Have you pitched any agents? um Years ago, when i wrote, when i when i originally, when I wrote the manuscript and I'm not going, and I'm not going to admit when that was because it it was a while ago. Um, i actually, I actually queried a couple of agents and, um and honestly, they were really nice and, and they're really helpful and they're really friendly. And the only issue at the time was i didn't have a large enough catalog really that they could work with.
01:06:53
Speaker
That was the only issue. um now I have shopped, my novel around a little bit. um There was a time when one of, i can't remember which one it is offhand now, but one of the really huge publishers, they had an open call for manuscripts, which I was like, holy crap. So yeah, I, I hurled it at them. And um the only, okay. The only issue um was that,
01:07:31
Speaker
I had written my novel in the first person singular. Okay. And they didn't like that. That's, that's my preferred POV as well.
01:07:42
Speaker
Now I wrote it that way at the time. Usually it's not for me. Okay. This is the only time I've ever done this. And, um at the time, the only reason I chose that was because,
01:07:59
Speaker
protagonist of the novel is an immortal. And, and I just thought that writing, writing everything
01:08:11
Speaker
from their viewpoint and all in the moment would convey that personality more. Okay. And I wrote the whole thing in the first person singular. I never,
01:08:24
Speaker
I never tried that before and it was an exercise. Actually, nearly nearly nearly every writing I do is kind of an exercise because I don't write in one genre and I don't write in one you know anything. i I like to try new things. on I like to learn new things.
01:08:37
Speaker
But anyway, um the only reason they gave me why but why they didn't accept it was that they didn't like reading it in the first person singular.
01:08:48
Speaker
So i kind of... hang I kind of laid it aside for a while and, you know, just, I, I was, you know working on other things and, um, I only submitted it to a couple other places. And one of the places that I chose actually went out of business, like,
01:09:10
Speaker
I think a couple months after i had submitted it. oh yeah Um, and there was another one that i but I never heard back from. um and right now it's actually in the hands of a friend of a friend who is a writer and who has a few connections in the industry. And I am waiting to see what he thinks. Um,
01:09:34
Speaker
Wow. Okay, cool. Well, keep me posted. I can do that. Oh, you'll know. Trust me. you Everybody will know. Now, I'm curious to know um about like world building and how you ah would approach that differently in fictional prose as opposed to something like role playing game.
World-building Process
01:09:59
Speaker
That is actually one thing i have considered a lot recently. And for me,
01:10:09
Speaker
the real difference is that with me, at least, okay, I don't know how other people do this and there isn't, and there isn't any, in RPGs, know, I've never read anything like, okay, here's how to do it. And okay. With me, if it's an RPG, i am creating the world and I'm populating it for
01:10:30
Speaker
For stories. If I'm writing a novel, i will. oh ah I will outline. The story. And create a world to support it.
01:10:43
Speaker
OK, that makes sense. And. don't know if it's because of my anxiety or i also have OCD, but.
01:10:55
Speaker
I don't it's because of really how my brain works. Nearly every project I create, nearly nearly every nearly every writing you know that I have that I do, I can't help create a world for it.
01:11:10
Speaker
That's so neat. And that's something your brain just does automatically. It just wants you to do that. and it Yeah, I'm all about the details. I create details for everything. I can't help but it. just It's like I'll have an idea or a concept for something and I will usually write it down in a notebook, um, using a pencil by hand.
01:11:29
Speaker
And while I'm writing, I'm brainstorming, you know, just little ideas and little things. And, and and usually by the time I'm through, i have pages and pages and pages of just things.
01:11:44
Speaker
Um, and, and honestly, I do that for, everything. i have all these worlds and I tried to combine things usually where I can, you know, to save work and effort for myself. And, know, also that, you know, it's an easy way to, it's an easy way to, the sorry. It's an easy way to, way to add of layers.
01:12:13
Speaker
Um, because I have all these ideas where, you know, they have, you know, where they have overlaps and they have things in common and they have, you know, um, kind of a flavor in common and, and it's easy to combine certain things.
01:12:28
Speaker
And, um, I just have so much, I mean, pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of information and just world building and ideas and, um, um, little details. I mean, just little details. Um,
01:12:49
Speaker
and um And I just can't not do that.
01:12:55
Speaker
That is so much like the opposite of what I do. I'll be halfway through at a fight scene and be like, oh, yeah, there's a window. I probably should have said something about that.
01:13:07
Speaker
because I hate getting bogged down. and And I don't mean to imply that having details is bogging things down, but it it feels that way to me. Maybe I'm just not very good at explaining things. Because, I mean, you've read my stuff. I'm all about economy of language.
01:13:24
Speaker
and can clarify Let me clarify what I said, actually, because I'm not sure it all came through. Okay. And that's my fault. um When I say I create a whole world in details... um usually usually about 80% of it really does not actually show up in my writing.
01:13:41
Speaker
It's all in the background.
01:13:45
Speaker
It's all there, but it's not always in the story, which is why which's why I create RPGs because eventually it eventually it all gets used and it's all there and it all gets shared.
01:13:59
Speaker
Oh yeah, because that kind of, I don't want to say you make it up as as you go along, but There are a lot of variables that have to be expanded on, right? Yes. And I create a whole world.
01:14:10
Speaker
Okay. and actually this is And actually, this is actually, is actually, actually, this is also a secret. Okay. One reason why I create a whole world my RPGs is so I can just create as I go while I play because it's all there in the background. I know what's you know all around us and what's there and available. And I can just create on the fly while I am running the game because it's all there in the background.
01:14:41
Speaker
Nice. That's actually why I use character sheets. and Yeah, that makes so much sense. it's all there. I don't have to write any plots or any adventures.
01:14:52
Speaker
Really. All I have to do is go, okay, where are we going today? and I know what's there. And I just let, you know, everybody who's is, I let the players kind of choose, I'll choose their areas of interest. I let them know what's there. I give them all the details and i just watch and,
01:15:15
Speaker
and observe which details, you know, hit them the hardest.
01:15:22
Speaker
Because they'll always ask a question about the details that really interest them. I mean, as an example, I've had a whole adventure completely. um I've had an adventure derailed by mentioning apple butter.
01:15:35
Speaker
Wow. It's like I had the adventures, know, the entrance of a town, the gate of a town, and they're having a chat with an old man, gatekeeper at the gate. And, you know, they're asking questions about the town because it's never been there before. Okay. You know, and he gave him, he's like, oh, this, this, and this. And also this season's apple butter is particularly fine.
01:15:57
Speaker
And that's all I said. The whole group, they went into the town and went searching for apple butter. They had to have apple butter. They went all through that town trying to find the um ah not just apple butter, but for the best apple butter in town.
01:16:22
Speaker
Well, i can't blame them for that. Apple butter is delicious. We spent an hour and a half of the game time on that. Not adventuring, not anything else, but just looking for apple butter.
01:16:33
Speaker
Did they find it, though? Well, yes, i hadt like I had to let them find the damn apple. But can you imagine what would happen if I hadn't let them find apple butter? No, I can't.
01:16:45
Speaker
They would have lost their shit. Of course they found apple butter. And while they were looking for it, I was working in my head on a description of this fantastic apple butter so so I could describe it when they found it.
01:17:00
Speaker
It was insane. And it was awesome. Wow. Yeah, I guess so. Wow. That's, yeah, see, I often wonder if I would like RPGs if I did them.
01:17:12
Speaker
would I think you would. Yeah, my my sister thinks that too. Oh, actually, she's H's sister, but You know, we've been together for so long, she's basically my sister now. There's actually RPGs of every genre and every it so every property you can imagine, there's an RPG for it. There's a Walking Dead role-playing game.
01:17:30
Speaker
I've read some of the the White Wolf stuff, mostly because a movie ripped them off and I wanted to know all the details. Yeah. Yep. I was there, I know. Okay. And it's true.
01:17:43
Speaker
All right. um White Wolf is... White Wolf can be problematic, but but if you actually have players you know who are human beings and mature, it's not a big deal. But if not, it can quickly can it can quickly degenerate into schlock and crap.
01:18:04
Speaker
Well, some of that content is pretty adult. That's kind of where I'm going with this, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what kind of role playing you're into.
01:18:17
Speaker
Well, that's the thing about RPGs, though, is that you're going to learn things about your friends. So get ready for that. Right. When I ran a game in the ninety s when I ran a game of ah Vampire the Masquerade, which is a white wolf game, I learned things about a couple of my friends that I wish I could unlearn.
01:18:41
Speaker
And I'm not saying everybody's like this. I'm just saying that there are certain kinds of games where with the rules and the structure and the, and the subject matter encourage a certain kind of role playing, which is why I'm very choosy about, you know what I run for my games, even an edition of a game that I choose.
01:19:11
Speaker
because they're often very different. um And
01:19:19
Speaker
and a rule set will encourage a certain um kind of gaming. and And honestly, after all these years, I've been gaming and I've been running games for over 40 years now.
01:19:34
Speaker
i don't have the patience for, you know, crap and wasting my time You know, at a table with people. So I'm really particular about.
01:19:47
Speaker
One, actually. About the game I'm running, and also I'm really I'm really particular about about my players I pick.
01:19:59
Speaker
That makes sense. i mean, I had to learn the hard life, right? You have to learn the hard way sometimes, though, because it can be really difficult because. in role playing as an industry, everybody wants to play.
01:20:16
Speaker
Everybody wants to run a character. Very few people actually run a game. And honestly, that's all I've ever done is run games. So I have to find players and that's easy. I mean, they're everywhere.
01:20:29
Speaker
However, trying to come up with person who is willing to create and run a game is not easy. So I would be flooded with requests, and all kinds of players, you know, and it was, it's almost like when you're an editor, it's like, okay, I've got 20 requests and I only have, and I only have five seats.
01:20:53
Speaker
Right. And I don't, and i and a lot of these people are strangers. I don't know, you know, any people i'm going to have them in my home. And I don't know these people because I run my games usually at home um every now and then online, but not often.
01:21:08
Speaker
So I've had to be particular and i've learned the hard way. People lie. People lie to get into a game. um And people also, i won't say people who are who are who are really into role playing games have, you know, have issues with social interaction, but a lot of them do.
01:21:34
Speaker
yeah Well, and it's weird to me because I would think of an RPG as being something that you do with your friends. So it it wouldn't occur to me to want to go to a stranger or a virtual stranger's house.
01:21:48
Speaker
to Let me ask you a question.
01:21:52
Speaker
Sure, let me ask you a question. ah
01:21:57
Speaker
How many friends you have within a... I'll give you a 50-mile radius. A 50-mile radius? Good friends you'd have in your house.
01:22:08
Speaker
maybe five or six. That's almost enough to have a game. ah then okay okay Then you have to get them all together at the same time.
01:22:23
Speaker
It's hard. Well, scheduling group activities with adults is ridiculous. It's, I mean, yeah. i You're lucky to have adult friends who are actually adults. Yeah.
01:22:38
Speaker
Yep. um Okay, I'm looking over my question list because we're getting toward the end of our time. And you consented to talk about a time when you felt in legitimate fear for your life. And you don't have to still do that if you don't want to. But if you got no problem would like to say something about that, now is the time for that. No problem. and I'll
Ravine Crossing Tale
01:23:00
Speaker
try to keep it brief. um When I was in high school, I had a friend and he and I decided that we were going to just leave a little bit early and skip school.
01:23:12
Speaker
We were about 16 and we decided to go to his house and hang out you know for the rest of the day because, well, there was nobody at his house and his house was in walking distance and mine was not.
01:23:23
Speaker
so Okay. We snuck out of school and just left school. And okay. Now at the time, um he lived on the other side of a ravine that had a railroad track at the bottom of it.
01:23:39
Speaker
I don't know how deep it was, but I have an issue with heights. Well, if they're man-made heights and I, and I got a little, I got, I got a little wibbly wobbly at the idea of,
01:23:53
Speaker
Um, at the time, at the time there was a road under construction that went, um, past our high school and over and over connected with the road where he lived off of that road.
01:24:06
Speaker
And they were building a bridge at the time. It was over the ravine and all they had cross seeing over the ravine at the time, there were these I beams. Can you see where we're going with this?
01:24:18
Speaker
Yeah, so so. And I don't like it. Well, He was, okay, I was actually willing to just crawl down the ravine on one side, walk across the railroad tracks, and climb all the way back up the other side. It was a long way down, but I was like, whatever.
01:24:37
Speaker
you know you know Or, you know, we could have just walked way around, you know. Anyway, he was like, hey, why don't we cross on the I-beam? And I just looked at him and Now you got to. Okay. At the time. Okay. At the time i was really skinny and I was really agile and I had really good balance and I had no problem doing this actually. know, was like, dude, if there was ever a time to use the phrase, let's not and say we did. That is the time for that. That's why that phrase was invented for that situation.
01:25:17
Speaker
We were 16. Well, let's not and say we did. I actually tried please and he called me a wuss. Oh, so what was I to do?
01:25:30
Speaker
You had no choice at that point, I suppose. So anyway, might as well be a triple dog there. So anyway, I went first. I began walking across.
01:25:40
Speaker
I had no problem. None. I mean, I kept my eyes on the other side because like I said, I have a real issue with heights, but only manmade heights. I can is i can do rock climbing. I can anything else. If it's a manmade thing, I don't trust it.
01:25:58
Speaker
It's like way in the back of my head. i don't trust any structure a human built. So anyway, I'm walking across. I get about halfway across. And like I said, I'm just watching ahead.
01:26:13
Speaker
Okay. Because I want to get across as quickly and easily as possible. I'm not worrying about him. This was his idea. Okay. Right. He insisted. I assumed he was cool.
01:26:26
Speaker
I get about halfway across and hear this croaking sound. Oh no. He's trying to say something. However, he can't because he's too scared. So I look over my shoulder. I see him crouching on the eye beam about a quarter.
01:26:41
Speaker
Well, actually closer to halfway across a little behind me, but not too far. He's crouching on the eye beam with his hands, you know, um clenching it.
01:26:52
Speaker
And it's obvious he can't go any further. What a wuss.
01:27:01
Speaker
So I turn around. At that point, I accidentally glance, you know. You know, outward some. ah My head spins.
01:27:15
Speaker
I'm I don't know where the hell I am. no. I don't I don't know what's up. And I'm like. oh shit,
01:27:28
Speaker
I'm about to fall and die. Because, i mean, I was wobbling. I was, however, however for some reason, i have no idea how long it lasted. After, you know, a little bit, i was okay again. And and i was on the beam sideways.
01:27:49
Speaker
So i just kind of like, you know, slowly sidestepped.
01:27:57
Speaker
you know over to where he was on the I beam and helped him up and helped him back, you know, over to his side of the beam. And I went back the way we came. I, okay I was over halfway across and he wasn't quite halfway across. So it was closer to the other side the original side, his side.
01:28:15
Speaker
so, I helped him back over to the original side. And eventually, after we had calmed down some, we went all the way down the ravine on one side, climbed up the ravine on the other side, and went to his house. yeah Because he couldn't... By that point, it was like eight at night, and your day was over. um No, it was like... was noon or so. Yeah.
01:28:39
Speaker
That is crazy i I would never forget you know the sensation of that, and i'm and I'm actually going to put it in one of my stories because... Oh, you should.
01:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. Because, I mean, I've heard... mean, you've read about Vertigo, I guess is what it was at the time. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And you watched... the movies and such, a but i mean, it's just, I mean, it's, I mean, the feeling is just, I mean, it is, it was honestly overwhelming. And i mean, it's not like any anything I've ever experienced before. And, and I honestly thought I was going to die.
01:29:20
Speaker
I mean, I honestly believed I was just going to fall right off the side beam because i was not in control. I didn't know where I was. i didn't know what was happening. And I just assumed i was about to die.
01:29:33
Speaker
I really did. yeah and I assumed that he was going to die, too, because he wasn't able to go across. He was mean he was hanging along with his hands. I mean, he was like, ouch.
01:29:45
Speaker
How much do you remember about what went through your mind when you really thought you weren't going to make it?
01:29:55
Speaker
Okay, this might be... guess it's kind of weird. um Okay, one, I was angry at my friend. Yeah, yeah, okay.
01:30:06
Speaker
Sensible. And I wasn't angry that he made us cross this thing. I was angry that he made me turn around. Well, yeah. Because I would have been fine.
01:30:19
Speaker
I was pissed off. And the only, and the only other, the only, the only other thing I can remember at the time that ran through my mind is God, my mom's going to be pissed.
Bravery vs. Fearlessness
01:30:33
Speaker
You know, what I think was very clearly illustrated in your story is the difference between being brave and being fearless. Because your friend was fearless and he did not consider consequences. Whereas you had to be brave because you knew full well that that was a potentially fatal situation.
01:30:58
Speaker
that lot sense. And what ultimately happened was that the fearless guy got smacked in the face by reality, and then you had to be even more brave to save your friend.
01:31:08
Speaker
Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, you're right. I hadn't really considered that, but yeah. Bravery versus fearlessness is a very important distinction that is not discussed enough, in my opinion.
01:31:20
Speaker
It's actually important in what I'm writing right now with fearlessness. couple of my characters and that's where I'm going to be using few of few the details of this experience actually in my writing actually novel is actually the novel I'm writing right now and I was working on was working on this morning and I was actually waiting on our yeah you said that you were writing this morning yeah And that's actually where I'll be using this because, um actually in this one, the characters are either right out of high school or one's a high school senior, the others are college age.
01:32:00
Speaker
Okay. So I'm like, yeah, I've got, so I've got a few things to say. i got a few things I could say for this. Yeah, I can use this. All right. Well, you know, we're, we're just about, uh,
01:32:13
Speaker
to our wrap up question.
Choosing Horror Genre
01:32:15
Speaker
So was there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get to? No, I rambled quite a bit. Oh, I don't remember that.
01:32:24
Speaker
No, everything seems so valuable to me. um i i do also like to give guests an opportunity to ask me a question. And I think you indicated that you wanted to know why i choose horror as as my main genre.
01:32:39
Speaker
Yeah, you touched upon a little bit. However, I'm really curious if there was any like one event or any one author or any one experience or anything that really said, that's for me. That's what I want. I can actually point to a few different things. Now, I grew up on horror. I was raised on it. Sir Graves Gastly was my hero, the Detroit horror host. Oh, yeah. i think I was nine or ten when I started reading Stephen King. Cause Gen X parents did not give a shit what we read. We were allowed to read pretty much anything, at least at my house. And um so I was married to horror at a young age and yeah, I'm, I'm turning 55 on Monday. So I'll be 55 in this December.
01:33:24
Speaker
Okay. So yeah, I am the Gen X and um happy early birthday. Thank you. And, and the thing is my mom also liked horror and she was a abusive, horrible person.
01:33:37
Speaker
oh So ah horror, like memories of watching horror are one of the thing the few things that my mom and I consistently enjoyed together. Oh, Wow.
01:33:49
Speaker
So horror to me has like a, I don't want to say a warm, fuzzy connotation, but like putting it, putting in a horror movie means nobody is going to hit you for the next 90 to 120 minutes. I see that. It has that, that comforting vibe to me always because truthfully, i think that if an agent looked at my work, they would say, you're not a horror
Influence of Stephen King
01:34:13
Speaker
writer. You write dark comedy.
01:34:15
Speaker
You are a comedy writer. And that's fair. I just love horror. So I want to think of myself as a horror person. And as long as people are dying and getting devastated. Come on, man. That's horror. Work with me.
01:34:29
Speaker
i so get that. Yeah. So so that's where I'm at with that. um But also, I mean, Stephen King, i read a lot of Stephen King because I found his work very accessible, um even though as a fat girl, there was a lot to not feel good about the way that he he talked about fat people, which is like, I mean, that's a huge topic for another day. But um apart from that, like Stephen King, the the short story collections in particular, are great primers in how to reveal information, how to choose a point of view, you know, and, and why that matters to the the telling of the story, like who, yeah you know, and, and that was so educational for me that by the time on writing came out, I already thought that he was my writing tutor. He just didn't know it.
01:35:25
Speaker
Um, Lee is very generous with that. Actually he yes. Yeah. He talks with a lot of people about writing and he's, you know, he's always happy to do it. And I, I admire him for that.
01:35:37
Speaker
Yeah. I've never heard of a, any young writer say, I asked Stephen King for help and he didn't help me. I mean, I know he can't reply to everyone, but I've, you don't hear about him like being rude and shitty to people. you know, not, not all of his internet jokes land as well as he seems to think they do, but and he also goes around and gives a lot of talks and interactive, you know, things. And so, yeah, I mean, he's given away the rights to the the short stories to new filmmakers. I always thought it was a classy move.
01:36:06
Speaker
I know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And actually the only reason why I'm really aware of, of I mean, King at all, I mean, other than watching him on TV for Salem's Lot and pissing my pants is um is really because of is really because of Lovecraft. He's a huge H.P. Lovecraft fan.
01:36:25
Speaker
Yeah. And everything, you know, nearly all of his writings will have, they'll have a reference or have, you know, have a piece of Lovecraft in there somewhere.
01:36:38
Speaker
That's only reason why I'm really aware of him um really as a writer. um Because I've read a couple of his things, but honestly, they're not really my thing.
01:36:52
Speaker
Okay. Well, that's I know that sounds weird because he writes a lot of the things you know that i'm I'm into, but for some reason, I just, I don't know. Just never really...
01:37:05
Speaker
It's the only thing of his I've really read are The Talisman, and he wrote that with Peter Straub. Oh, no, that's not a good one. That's not a good book. Sorry. it's It's not good.
01:37:16
Speaker
Well, and also the Dark Tower series. Oh, yeah. You know what? I haven't read any of the Dark Tower stuff. I was so into, like, the early stuff. ah Carrie, Salem's Lot, Cujo, The Shining,
01:37:29
Speaker
Yeah. Pet Sematary. I mean, that that is the stuff that will knock you. And I read The Shining. Years ago. And I, I tried reading.
01:37:41
Speaker
I tried reading either Carrier Cujo. I tried reading Cujo. was just like, ah i don't know. It just wasn't for me, I guess. Well, Carrie is an interesting choice, especially talking about a point of view.
01:37:57
Speaker
because Carrie, the novel, has several different points of view.
Improving Writing Skills
01:38:01
Speaker
There's like a scholarly book that was written after the incidents. There are excerpts from a book called My Name is Sue Snell, which would be the book that that the character wrote about her surviving the incidents and what her perspective is.
01:38:16
Speaker
It's also the one that he threw in the trash and his wife got out and had published, right? Well, I don't know that... i I think that my understanding is that He had a pretty good bite on it, like a couple of chapters.
01:38:30
Speaker
And she saved that from the trash and was like, hey, why did you throw this out? This is actually really good. You should finish it. And that makes a ton of sense to me. H h didn't read my writing for the longest time. he He doesn't read it now unless I say, please sit down and read this and tell me what you think.
01:38:50
Speaker
I'm lucky my wife actually will read my writing out loud so I can hear it. Oh, wow. And that's a gigantic help. I'll bet that sounds way better than Siri. It does. And it's a humongous help hearing it out loud because it's like you use different areas of your brain and it's like a whole, it's a whole other input, you know, and it's like, oh, oh, why did I write that?
01:39:14
Speaker
Oh, I got to fix it. Reading stories out loud for podcasts has changed the way that I write a little bit. I'm like conscious of the the words that I choose, like in a different way.
01:39:26
Speaker
If that makes sense. Oh, it does. Absolutely.
Madlib Game Fun
01:39:29
Speaker
Well, speaking of words, man, it's time for the Madlib. It's time for it now. All right. So let me see. Let's see. I need a bunch of adjectives. One, two, three, four, five adjectives. Oh, Jesus. Okay. Five adjectives.
01:39:47
Speaker
um Crunchy. Green. Wet. Short. um One more. Rusty.
01:40:00
Speaker
Okay. I need, uh-oh, says person and room. Person and room is always the guest. Oh, actually there's two. So one will be you and one will be me. All right. So for nouns, I need singular nouns. I need one, two, three, four, five, six singular nouns. Bloody hell. I know, right?
01:40:22
Speaker
Singular nouns, six of them. All right. We're going to go with lasagna or lasagna noodle, if that's more appropriate.
01:40:38
Speaker
We'll just say lasagna. I think that's good. Okay. And baseball bat. This is always more difficult for writers because you feel the pressure to give interesting words. Seriously, man. Musicians just look around the room like table, TV, ceiling. um Okay. um We're going to go with ladle, dead cat.
01:41:09
Speaker
Okay. And how many more do I have? Two more. Two more. Two more, two more, two more, two more. Fair tire. Shotgun. All right. And i need, let's see, a verb ending in I-N-G.
01:41:27
Speaker
Swallowing. All right. A part of the body. Well, gee, right after swallowing, that's kind of unnerving. All right. um Part of the body, we're going to say neck.
01:41:47
Speaker
And a plural noun. i need two of those, actually. Two plural nouns. But of course you do. All right. Um... Speakers.
01:41:57
Speaker
Now i'm looking around my room, my office. um And light bulbs.
01:42:08
Speaker
And i need an article of clothing. Oh, hell, we'll go with undies. And an exclamation. Jinkies.
01:42:19
Speaker
All right, sweet. So this is from the sports section of the Mad Lib book, and this is called Going, Going, Gone. Hit me. eight Okay, so this is a crunchy sports commentary to be read aloud.
01:42:34
Speaker
Announcer one. Well, it's a green day for baseball here at Baseball Bat Park. Perfect. Nailed it. And David is about to throw out the first ladle.
01:42:47
Speaker
Announcer 2. He's facing wetness, who is a wet hitter with a.325 swallowing average. Oh, you prick.
01:42:58
Speaker
Nailed it again! Okay, announcer 1. Here's the pitch. It's a dead cat. Ball for strike one. ah Hitter doesn't look too short about it.
01:43:09
Speaker
He's shaking his neck and stepping outside the batter's spare tire to collect his speakers. Aww. Announcer two. The pitcher adjusts his undies and reads the signs from his catcher.
01:43:21
Speaker
Yeah. He nods. He winds up. Here's the shotgun. Damn, dude. Nailed again. I know, right? ah Announcer number one. It's a hit.
01:43:31
Speaker
Deep to right lasagna. It's going, going. It's rusty. Jinkies. A home run for the light bulbs. Yay! There we have it.
01:43:43
Speaker
Yes. I love the Mad Lib. It's my favorite part of the show. that was it i hope I hope Mad Lib never sues me because I don't have their permission to do this. It's okay.
01:43:55
Speaker
Yes. Thank you. Well, like I said, I think like 40 people might listen to this show. um Hi, everyone. No, i I'm so glad you could be here. This was a great conversation. I had so much fun.
01:44:06
Speaker
Thank you. I really, really enjoyed it. Much more than I actually
Guest's Reflections and Thanks
01:44:10
Speaker
imagined. I was really nervous because, well, speaking of. Well, I'm a terrible person and I'm known for being really hostile. So I can see why it would be unnerving to think you had to come and talk to me for two hours. It's just hard when you start. That's all.
01:44:25
Speaker
that's all I get it, man. I mean, I don't get it from experience, but I can certainly understand it, which is why i was so touched and honored that you agreed to to come and do this. And it like it was so worthwhile.
01:44:37
Speaker
Like I said before, I've actually had offers and requests before, and i've and I've actually turned them all down just because I wasn't, I don't know, I just, when you asked me, I was actually excited. So I, you know, I thought, well, ill give it a try this one time.
01:44:55
Speaker
I mean, ask what's the worst that can happen? It'll be unusable and you just have to delete it. What the fuck? yeah Well, sure. I mean, i don't even know who said it, but there's a ah common saying that we tend to regret the things that we don't do much more than we regret the things that we do.
01:45:12
Speaker
If you're not a serial killer, I'm sure that's accurate. And if you're not walking across an I-beam over a railroad track, I really appreciate this. Thank you.
01:45:23
Speaker
Oh, of course. Of course. Now, I want to remind all our listeners that the best way to support the show is to find us on Ko-Fi, where we are Sometimes Hilarious
Support Reminder
01:45:33
Speaker
Horror. So that's ko-fi slash Sometimes Hilarious Horror. Supporting the magazine with a subscription or a purchase is the best way to make sure that we also have money to do this show.
01:45:45
Speaker
So thanks so much to everybody, and we will see you next week.