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Guest: Michael Allen Rose
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Michael Allen Rose talk horror and comedy, writing and art, and the remarkable resilience of the weird kid. We examine the changeable nature of success, wonder what the hell is wrong with Snoop Dogg, and opine on why humans make art in the first place. Also, the value of kindness, Jason Vorhees and Roy, and Wednes explains why she has a lifeaversary.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Mentally Oddcast
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You are listening to The Mentally Oddcast, where we talk with creatives about neurodivergence, trauma, addiction, and all the other things that impact and inform our art. Our goal is to show everyone that no matter what you're going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
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Music
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You are listening to The Mentally Oddcast.
Guest Introduction: Michael Allen Rose
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I am Wednesday, leave Friday, and we, as always, are brought to you by Sometimes Hilarious Horror Magazine. This week, we have Michael Allen Rose, who is an award-winning author, musician, and performer based in Chicagoland.
00:00:51
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His novel, Jurassic Christ, won the Wonderland Award for Best Bizarro Novel 2021, the very next year, 2022, won the
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Speaker
He received the Wonderland again for Best Collection for his ABC primer, The Last Five Minutes of the Human Race. He is the president of the Bizarro Writers Association and the editor-in-chief of the micropress Rochambeau Publishing.
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He also makes industrial music under the name Flood Damage. He loves tea and cats. Welcome, Michael. Thanks for being here. Hi, Wednesday. Thanks for having me. i'm ah It's my pleasure to be here.
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Cool.
Michael's Journey with Horror
00:01:31
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Well, you know, we tend to start out by asking guests to tell us the story of ah the first horror movie that they remember seeing. It's such a good icebreaker. So let's hear it.
00:01:41
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The first horror movie. Well, you know, I have a weird history with horror, actually, considering what I'm doing now with my life. Because when I was a kid, I was one of those really squeamish, kind of like, I'm a little bit afraid of everything kind of kids.
00:01:56
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So it took me a while to come around. But I think back to like those formative years. And honestly, there are a lot of things that laid the foundation. Like my dad was watching the twilight zone and Alfred Hitchcock presents and all these old, you know, anthology series that I think really fired up my imagination, you know, in, in, when I was kind of before I, I really started to think about creating it myself.
00:02:25
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Um, And then when i became a teenager, of course, my friends were into horror and things and we were watching like Friday the 13th. This was like, you know, classic slasher. kind of ah era.
00:02:37
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And i remember I couldn't handle like some of the gore and things at the time. And at some point in my teenage years, there was this moment where I thought about like the mastery of, of art that it took to make these things, you know, like the artifice of, of filmmaking of storytelling of whatever.
00:02:58
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ah video games, programming, anything like that. And i I remember making a conscious decision going, i don't think I'm going to be afraid anymore. I think if I'm of the darkness, the darkness can't hurt me.
00:03:10
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So I'm going to learn how to yeah to create it and control it and be be a part of that. and And it sounds ridiculous, but it worked. Like whatever mental trick that that did for me, it's like, oh yeah, no, I'm going to be ah creature of the night as opposed to the thing that's being hunted, you know?
Childhood Influence and Adversity
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Dude, I don't think that sounds ridiculous at all. In fact, I believe that that is Tom Savini's story as well. Really? The the great makeup artist. Yeah, he, um, because he was in the war. He was in ah Vietnam. Sure.
00:03:40
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And, uh, terrible things. And, and I don't know that he has described himself as having PTSD, but it seems a reasonable conclusion to draw. And that is how he, uh, he, he talks about, uh,
00:03:56
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and just getting a handle on horror and, and controlling it because sure you're absolutely right. Once, once you're part of the thing and you have control over, it's like what, what we're seeing that that's power, man. Like, uh, all the people that read horror as kids or the people, like I read a lot of true crime as a kid, I was considered a very weird kid.
00:04:20
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Because I think I was maybe 10 when I picked up Helter Skelter. And I was reading you know Stephen King and the Hillside Stranglers. That was ah that was a big read at the time. Everybody wanted to know about those dudes. Oh, wow.
00:04:33
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And it just felt like, well, you know, knowledge is power. And if I have an understanding of these things, that will help me in life. Of course, now everybody wants to know about serial killers. It is people's relaxation viewing. But back in the day, I assure you, people said we were weird.
00:04:52
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Oh, for sure. You know, and and and the resilience that you develop being the weird kid, like I think that that contributes to some success, too, especially if you become a content creator of like, you know, boundary pushing things or, or you know, difficult and challenging topics.
00:05:10
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Yeah, I mean, I think that there are a lot of things that come from, you know, being a weirdo, being bullied, being even being straight up abused. You develop skills from that. And on the one hand, I think it's cool to acknowledge that.
00:05:25
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And on the other, i i kind of hate it because... It gives assholes an out, you know, i like, well, see, me treating you like garbage for your entire childhood was so good for you. It's like we've developed the worst superpower. It's like our origin stories just suck.
00:05:44
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Like the powers are cool, but oh, my God, the origin story is terrible.
00:05:50
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Well, and some of those skills aren't even great skills. Like, you know, I could bought the red flags in my friend's new boyfriends by the second date. And they don't want to hear that. No, no.
00:06:03
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Like, oh, so he called his mom. So what? Dude, it was during sex. yeah That might be a bit of a flag. Just just saying, just you know, something to watch, something to keep an eye on.
00:06:17
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No, no, it's my keen eye. Only I would have noticed. So so what were you reading as a kid? um You know, I think um one of the first big ones that I remember in my head was Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark.
00:06:33
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And I know that's a formative, you know, a formative thing for so many people in the horror industry. But, you know, it wasn't so much the stories that I remember as the illustrations. Stephen Gammell's like original illustrations in that book were so scary and and hung on like a nightmare. You know, like they had these these wonderful, surreal qualities to them.
00:06:55
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And I remember being fascinated by stuff like that. Um, and I think that, that gave me a sensibility of like, I kind of, there was some part of me, even, even in the scary days that like, liked the creepy stuff, you know?
00:07:09
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And then I was also really obsessed with things like, uh, Greek mythology, um, ah Greek and Egyptian, like a lot of the, the myths, gods and monsters, um, You know back then I was being dragged to church every week by by my folks. And I remember when I got real bored and the only reading material available was the Christian Bible, I was reading the heck out of Revelation because it's like, man, there's like dragons and stuff in here. These dudes with cool horses, you know. like So, yeah, I think, um you know, formative for me was was kind of children's horror and also like classic mythology, monster stories, minotaurs and krakens and that.
00:07:50
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um Well, and I mean, the thing about religious literature is that while it's fascinating, it's meant to like get your attention and then get you to do things or think very specific things.
00:08:03
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So there is a lot of horror in that. They tried to raise me Catholic and it didn't go well. And I just remember them explaining to us about the Eucharist and a kid in my class just stopped everything and said, if we love Jesus, why are we eating him? That's a good question.
00:08:22
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Like, yeah, well, maybe don't introduce 10 year olds to ritualize cannibals. Right. but Well, and yeah, no, and a lot of the imagery, not only the cannibalism, but I remember being like, like the four horsemen of the apocalypse were an absolute obsession for me.
00:08:36
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You know, and is it any wonder that I ended up writing, you know, the last five minutes of the human race? like the the idea of eschatology and the end of things and, and all the symbolism and and chaos that come from that. It's fascinating storytelling stuff. I mean, there's, that's a rich tapestry of, of ideas and and images, you know?
00:08:55
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Well, and even like the ah the Greek gods, you know, they are at or the Romans is pretty much the same, but they were always getting up to like terrible things. yeah They were petty and jealous and serially unfaithful. yeah i said Just going to pop down to earth, turn myself into a goose for a minute and, you know, sexually assault somebody. and Because, you know, that's what we do here in Greece on Olympus. Wow.
00:09:22
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Yeah, goodness knows here in America we'd never put a sexual predator in charge of everything. No, never. Let alone worship them. so dear Dear God. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem.
00:09:33
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But I digress.
Understanding Bizarro Fiction
00:09:35
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So, okay, so you write bizarro horror. Now let's pretend that I don't know what that is or how it differs from regular horror. Sure. Give me it. So to me, um I've been around the bizarro scene for a long time, and ah I feel like, you know, after a decade or so in a scene, you kind of earn the ability to define it as you see fit.
00:09:55
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And for me, it's actually an an idea um that you should expand the umbrella as far as genre tropes and things go. To me, bizarro is the genre of the genre-less. In a lot of ways, it's people who like to take genre tropes and screw with them, you know, like break down the walls between genres or play with the idea that's like, well, this is too funny for horror. Well, that's okay.
00:10:19
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and This is a spaghetti Western, but it takes place underwater with a bunch of, i don't know, toaster people. And that's fine. Like, but, you know, you're still... ah essentially telling the story.
00:10:33
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And the idea behind Bizarro to me is to get to that purity of storytelling we had when we were kids, where it's like, okay, I'm playing with my masters of the universe. And I know He-Man can't fly, but in this particular adventure, he needs to be at the top of Castle Grayskull right now. So right now he can fly, like, because I'm telling the story. It doesn't matter if it could happen or couldn't happen or whether it's canon or anything like that.
00:10:55
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I'm telling the story. So right now, He-Man's going to fly up here because he's needed for the next scene. And I think Bizarro Fiction does that a lot, too, where it's like, what what's the core of the story I'm telling here? I'm not going to worry about, well, that's unlikely or this is this is too silly.
00:11:11
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It's just a purity of storytelling that's like, this is fun. This is how the story goes. Sit back, buckle up, you know, and don't allow yourself to be penned in by the you know the genre tropes, I guess.
00:11:23
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Okay. That to me is kind of the core of Bizarro. You know, it's it's weird at its core, no matter what i guess the the common denominator is it's weird.
00:11:34
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But I feel like there's a purity to that where you're not worried about what you should be doing. You're just doing what serves the story best.
00:11:44
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And, you know, this is kind of a weird example. I don't know how well you know the Sharknado movies. um I'm discussing this in terms of of ah movies rather than books just for the sake of, you know, people having more experience with them.
00:12:00
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The first four Sharknado movies, which were written by Thunder Levin, were they're really funny. Like the first one isn't as funny, but the first, like they get progressively funnier.
00:12:14
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And, but the later movies, the later two, are, um, they're, they're just weird. You know, it's, it's just like, it's like they're trying to think of the craziest thing they can do, sure but it isn't, it isn't funny and witty.
00:12:30
Speaker
You know, Frankie Muniz getting sucked out of an airplane and eaten by a shark. That is hilarious. It is. And Franklin just showing up for no reason and saying, you know, and it's, it's Leslie Jordan. So like, that's delightful.
00:12:43
Speaker
That's amazing. Leslie Jordan as, as Ben Franklin would be delightful. And here's me high in my recliner watching it and not being delighted. I mean, that's that's not fair. That's not right.
00:12:54
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And that the thing is, I was so poised to be delighted. The fact that I wasn't means that I'm sorry, those writers failed. Sure. Whoever was writing Sharknado movies after Thunder 11 left, y'all failed.
00:13:08
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Yeah. Yeah. didn't Well, you know, and it's funny, too, because like in Bizarro, of course, you know, we don't own the term. I'm talking about the community that surrounds like the original kind of the original couple of presses that started it and the Portland scene and all that stuff out west.
00:13:25
Speaker
um We don't own the term, but I do notice that once in a while someone will pop up and they'll sort of claim like I'm Bizarro and Bizarro is this. And a lot of times when when you see those books come out, they're very derivative of kind of the original wave of Bizarro, like Carlton Melech and people like that that kind of started it.
00:13:46
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And it's like, I think it's kind of like when the fandom starts to write the series, kind of like what happened to The Simpsons, where you've got like the original, like the Golden Years, seasons like three through nine or so.
00:14:00
Speaker
You know, after that, fans of that started to write it. And that's okay, but it lost some of the initial sort of magic because I think the the innovation and the and the freshness and the rawness of it disappeared.
00:14:13
Speaker
And then you've got people trying to kind of copy that. And I wonder if that's not what happens with stuff like Sharknado where they're like, oh, look how goofy it got. It got crazy and goofy. And what's the weirdest thing we can do?
00:14:24
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But it's somehow maybe missing like the core or the heart of it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really accurate because
Art, Society, and Capitalism
00:14:32
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if I could take it back to movies again, the Friday the 13th movies, you know, are really any slasher franchise. yeah You start out with someone who's probably essentially human.
00:14:42
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And one of the changes that happens over time is that people like Michael Myers and Jason Voorhees have to have supernatural elements because it's like, my God, 57 camp counselors are trying to kill this guy and he's still friggin here.
00:14:56
Speaker
How many shotguns to the face can this guy take? I mean, really? but in Two three at most. you know They end up getting so innovative. I will tell you that I think Jason takes Manhattan and Jason goes to hell.
00:15:12
Speaker
Mm-hmm. ah Jason Goes to Hell is brilliant. i I honestly, I'm embarrassed because I'm a writer and I don't know who wrote it, but I need to meet the person who said, OK, here's what we're going to do. Because, I mean, let's start by killing him for real. We're really going to kill Jason Voorhees. And then guess what? His spirit is just going to jump from person to person.
00:15:38
Speaker
like Is that when they brought in Roy? You'll have to remind me. Roy was earlier on. That was earlier on. Okay, okay, okay. Because that's five. That's the second Friday the 13th where the killer is not Jason.
00:15:52
Speaker
I got a little sad when they brought in Roy. That's all I remember. It's one, five, and nine. Well, I mean, the thing about Roy is that, first of all, you've got your Tommy Jarvis, which is a character that I think they really tried to build and then didn't know what to do with. didn't knowre Right.
00:16:08
Speaker
It's like, how do you go? You start out being Corey Feldman and then you go downhill. that does that's That's a difficult ah path to follow, I would say. yeah Burn on you, Corey.
00:16:20
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but um
00:16:23
Speaker
and Well, if Corey Feldman was a fan of Michael Allen Rose, he's not anymore.
00:16:30
Speaker
Now I can never call the 1-900-CORY hotline again. ah Story, story, allegory. For all the Simpsons fans. Yes.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah, I'm actually not, I don't consider myself a Simpsons fan anymore. Although I was pretty religious about the first, say, 25, 26 years. Sure. um I think the way that that Fox treated Alf Clausen is pretty disrespectful. Because, I mean, and he he scored the show for, you know, decades.
00:17:07
Speaker
And I realize that fans don't necessarily think of the score as a character. But theater people do. Oh, yeah. And in certain shows, you know, certain shows are so musically inclined and a lot of modern animation.
00:17:23
Speaker
Like I think of like one of my favorite animated shows these days is Bob's Burgers. And that show is so propped up by musical stuff. Like they're, there's such a musically oriented, the voice cast and the the producers of that show and everything. It's so, yeah, the Simpsons was similar where for a long time, the score and to some degree to like the original songs they wrote and things like that were so strong and such an important part. And if you go back to the very, very early Simpsons where they weren't really scoring much yet, it's jarring. Yep.
00:17:57
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, I mean, honestly, watch watch any episode from season seven, which is probably the best season. um Watch it without the music. It's a completely different show. and it It's very weird. It's not as good.
00:18:10
Speaker
And so Alf Clausen, you know, he got older, he got ill and wasn't able to travel. And said, hey, can you guys ah build me a studio in my home so that I can just work here?
00:18:22
Speaker
And that, in my opinion, that's a disability accommodation. There's like no reason not to do it. They didn't do it. Absolutely. he wasn't able to work anymore. He took retirement when he didn't want to.
00:18:33
Speaker
And they brought in somebody else who is, I'm sorry, just not as good. Yeah, that is that is sad. And that, yeah, that would be a reasonable accommodation under ADA. a Like that would make sense, especially if it's somebody that's been with...
00:18:46
Speaker
the show for that long and is such an integral part of its creation. Like it just makes sense, but you know, yeah. And i I don't know. There's a lot of capitalism that doesn't make sense to me. So i don't know.
00:18:58
Speaker
Oh, please. Well, and that's, you know, we we could talk all day about like why art and and products are, are not, you know, they shouldn't be the same.
00:19:09
Speaker
yeah ah You know, that's that's the whole like i mean, National Endowment for the Arts just sounds like a ridiculous phrase now when it's like, OK, he just threatened to not fund University of Michigan if they don't hurt trans kids. So i don't know if you heard.
Art's Role in Personal Crises
00:19:24
Speaker
i just found out this morning, actually, that the University of Michigan Hospital, which is like one of the best teaching hospitals in the world, is not ah providing gender affirming care for children.
00:19:37
Speaker
Oh my gosh. And I'm just fucking horrified. I can't even get over it. because i and And the thing is I'm just so appalled by the cowardice of it.
00:19:48
Speaker
You know how everybody is just laying down for these fucking fascists. Yep. Well, and like and I'm still reeling from the the whole let's purge the Smithsonian of anything that makes us sad. Like it's just it's. Well, and at first they said that they that it was just a delay that they were going to, you know, they they took out information for like a reorganize reorganizing. But it's all going back. It's all going back. We're we're not going to forget about slavery. And now that was a lie. It's all getting worse.
00:20:17
Speaker
What a ridiculous world we live in. i think that's why i make art. Well, that's that's kind of the point here is like art as a coping tool, as ah as a strategy to maintain your ah ethics, your morals, and also to to express yourself.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah. but to To maintain your willingness to live in some ways. I mean, honestly. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. I don't need to tell the host of the Mentally Oddcast that, but you know. Well, no, it's interesting because today, it's August 27th when we're recording. It'll be two weeks from now or so when this goes live.
00:20:58
Speaker
But today is actually my life-aversary day. It's my third life-aversary because three years ago today, my husband came home from work and he could not wake me up. And my blood sugar was down in the 30s.
00:21:12
Speaker
And ah I was, by my heart, they call it heart failure, but it was at 83%. You gotta be some kind of tiger mom to call 83% of failure.
00:21:23
Speaker
But that is what they called it. I mean, that's a B, come on. Right, exactly. I've always been a B plus person. See, there you go. Yeah, your heart completed, yeah.
00:21:34
Speaker
But, uh... You know, I, cause you know, from time to time we all get sad. I, you know, I'm, I'm intermittently suicidal have been since I was a teenager.
00:21:46
Speaker
Um, ah many of our guests talk about that kind of thing and how not just like making art, but how art saves us. Like I could point to a very specific evening when I had just ruined us financially because I had some kind of issue with a client and he charged us back for almost $5,000. Right. Oh, my God. for us was was ruinous.
00:22:09
Speaker
Sure. And and I was sitting up thinking, OK, I have to decide whether my husband would want to come home and find out that we're financially ruined or come home to find me dead and know that he could have my life insurance.
00:22:25
Speaker
a hell decision. And I thought about it and I thought, right Right. Over not even because, you know, i have friends that would laugh at that much money being through it, you know, like not at us, but just the idea of like, well, it's only that much money. Right. um But.
00:22:44
Speaker
ah What I ended up doing was I put on a movie. I put on ah Stranger Than Fiction with Will Ferrell. And then I watched it again. And then I i put it on again.
00:22:55
Speaker
And I watched that movie over and over again all night until my husband got home. And I asked him what he would prefer. have a guess. Yeah. and yeah i have a guess i
00:23:10
Speaker
Well, and I mean, I wouldn't wish being in love with me on my own show. It's, I can't imagine, like, I suck. as a person You know, I'm like, I get suicidal probably every other year. I go through a, why am I alive? What is this for? yeah Why do all my projects fail?
00:23:31
Speaker
yeah You know, i'd like, I check my book numbers and it's like, ah, what am I doing? But, you know, but then somebody said to me, well, don't you want to outlive Donald Trump?
Evolving Artistic Goals
00:23:43
Speaker
Oh God, yes. Said, holy fucking shit. Yes, that's it. You want to be at that party, don't you? Yeah. That's the one. Absolutely. Well, and it's so funny because, you know, James Dobson died and my parents weren't even religious. And I was just like, I want to celebrate along with everyone else because F that guy. Absolutely.
00:24:02
Speaker
No, I think, you know, that's that's that's something, too. And, you know, I have a history of with depression, and and I've occasionally had, I guess, what I would consider suicidal ideation. and you know, it used to, it used to be kind of one of those, like, I, you know, I'd get through it or whatever, but i I would kind of go like, what, where does art fit into that? Or like, you know, yeah the classic, like, what am I doing with my life and all that other stuff.
00:24:26
Speaker
And I think I came to the conclusion a few years ago that I'm just like, you know, in my twenties, I wanted success and success to me in my twenties looked like I want to be a rock star. I want to have a bestselling book. I want, to you know, like, like there was this one magical thing that would click. And then suddenly I'm like, Oh, that's success. There it is. I did it.
00:24:46
Speaker
You know, like there's just one goalpost and you pass it and you're fine. And I think, you know, we were done a disservice in the way we're raised, especially in the last, well, honestly half a century here in America where we, we have this pipe pop culture idolization.
00:25:00
Speaker
And I, you know, I was a teen in the nineties. Of course, I'm looking at up at all these rock stars and stuff. And, Because of the way the media worked at the time, especially, we didn't have access to these people. they you know This is before social media and things.
00:25:12
Speaker
We didn't know they had normal, regular lives and normal, regular problems. You just saw this golden city on a hill. It's like, wow, that's completely inaccessible to me. But what an amazing thing.
00:25:23
Speaker
If I could reach that golden city, that means success. And as I got older and, you know, I'm in my 40s now, you know, as I've started to meet some of my idols, like some of these these rock stars I looked up to or these big authors I looked up to and realized that they're just people. And some of them are very nice people who also struggle with self-doubt and imposter syndrome and depression and everything else.
00:25:50
Speaker
I realized, oh, success to me now is I'm still doing this. I'm still making art. I'm still making music and writing books and whatever. I haven't burned myself out.
00:26:01
Speaker
I'm not dead. And some people apparently like what I do. And and that's like, that is success. You know, and that really helps when I think when I'm i'm really down and like, what am I even doing?
00:26:14
Speaker
I'm just making cool stuff and I'm going to make a bunch of cool stuff and then on someday I'll die. And hopefully I'll have made a bunch of cool stuff along the way, you know, and and that that has to be the definition of success.
00:26:27
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, very much so. Well, you know, Jim Carrey has said that he wished that everyone had the opportunity to become rich and famous so that they could realize that that's not it.
00:26:42
Speaker
Yeah. That's not the thing. Right. And like, I mean, in terms of a project success, the way that I measure is the distance between what I was trying to do and what I actually did. Sure. Sure.
00:26:56
Speaker
But when you get older, what you're trying to do, like i said in the beginning, you know, I want to have X number of sales and I want to have, you know, I want to fill an auditorium of this size with people that want to hear me read.
00:27:10
Speaker
And the closer I got to those things, the more my goals changed. Sure. Because that those things just didn't seem very important. And I decided that I wanted to be respected by my peers.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah. then at one point, I got to be in an anthology with Jack Ketchum. That's awesome. And that's what I said. Like, well, I've i've arrived. Everybody, I'm here now. um Well, and i think, you know, the thing the thing we're not prepared for, too, is that the goalposts keep moving.
00:27:41
Speaker
Because when you have one of those successes, it's wonderful. And I am learning to stop and celebrate those things instead of immediately moving the goalposts forward. Because we're artists. We're like sharks. We move forward or we die, right? Like, so yeah we go, okay, I i made this goal.
00:27:57
Speaker
That's amazing. Where's the next one? You're already looking at it. It's on the horizon. You have to, well, you know, or I had this one success. Well, one could be a fluke. So now I have to do it again. and that's, I think, one of the things that we're not really prepared for, you know, as as young artists and and you kind of have to survive long enough to to realize yourself is like, oh, it's never over.
00:28:20
Speaker
There's not a moment where you know that you've made it, you've done it and you're done. You just, you dedicate your life to making stuff. you know to creating art or creating content or whatever, and and and you just keep doing that.
00:28:32
Speaker
And once in a while it works out, but there's no stopping point really, I think for most of us. Well, and it's interesting because the older I get, the more I think about that concept just in a general life way.
00:28:45
Speaker
You know, we'll say like, yeah, and then they ended up marrying so-and-so and that was it. Well, that's never it. Right. Like that's the end of the story? Are you sure? Well, right. Because when we tell stories like Disney in particular, we all grew up watching Disney movies. Yeah.
00:29:01
Speaker
Where most of the girls' stories end with them getting married and most of the boys' stories, not all, but the boys become king. ah Like, really? that and You think about it, like, from a historical perspective, that's probably when life starts to get interesting. That's really the beginning of the story, honestly.
00:29:20
Speaker
Yep. Well, I don't have any kids, but I'm told that they change you a lot. And they change your goals and they change what you think is important and the things that you... I mean, i have to think that kids change you a lot just because of what we've heard from Snoop Dogg this week.
00:29:37
Speaker
Oh, my God. Yeah, Snoop... I'm sorry, Mr... He has disappointed me. i'm ah I'm a big Snoop booster, but man, some of the things that come out of his mouth these days, I'm just like, you've turned into a cantankerous old man.
00:29:49
Speaker
I didn't think that would happen to you, Snoop. Well, to say something like, how do I explain this to my grandkids? Right. You just tell them you got bitches in the living room getting it on and they ain't even feel sucks in the morning.
00:30:02
Speaker
Exactly. So you had no problem. No problem rapping about like smoking dope and and and banging and whatever. But but hey, those two people of the same gender presentation might like each other. That that that was difficult for you. Like that was the concept where it was like, I don't understand.
00:30:22
Speaker
I think I've figured out why. oh yeah. I think that what I've figured out is that when people say, how do I explain lesbianism to my children? It's because they only think of lesbians as being sexualized.
00:30:38
Speaker
And that's true, like of of any gay people. So they're not saying, you know, how do I explain to my children that two people are in love with each other? They're thinking about like, you know, anal and scissoring. Yeah. Like, how do I explain? How do explain the plot of sorority sluts three to my grandchildren?
00:30:59
Speaker
o Like, you don't have to, man. Yeah. It's like, OK, but that's the thing. And if they don't do that with heterosexual couples. No, no. When you you tell your kids like, oh, you know, daddy's getting remarried.
00:31:13
Speaker
You don't have to tell them about like wedding night blowjobs. No. You can just say that they're getting married with, you know, in an age appropriate way. Right. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb right here on this podcast and I'm going to publicly state, I don't think you should.
00:31:30
Speaker
I know it's a controversial, um you know, stance to take, but I don't think you should have to talk to your children about your wedding night blowjob. Well, I guess it depends on how low they lower the age of consent, isn't it? Because Republicans want to make it 14 or just keep coming back to politics. God, what a world we live in.
00:31:50
Speaker
ah Because it's everywhere, man. that's It's pervasive. People used to say when people used to say, I don't want to talk about politics. They were talking about like tax rates and foreign policy. And, you know, now it's like, hey, the is that trans person going to be thrown in jail if they see a doctor?
00:32:07
Speaker
Right. We're in unprecedented times. You know, and who is it? Like the surrealists, I think it was, that came up with the may you live in interesting times quote. And and people people who haven't done much reading think that's like, oh, that sounds good. No, that was a curse.
00:32:21
Speaker
You don't want to live in interesting times. We are doing that right now. And it's terrible. I miss simplicity sometimes. I like when I didn't have to know the names of everyone in the cabinet.
00:32:35
Speaker
i should I shouldn't... I mean, yeah, I have a mail order business. Why do I need to know the name of the postmaster general? Right. Because he's an asshole who's fucking everything up.
00:32:45
Speaker
Right. Well, i have to know it. I shouldn't know that... Like, I shouldn't have to know who Stephen Miller is. I shouldn't have to know that one of Don Jr.'s hunting buddies is making decisions at the FDA. Like, I don't know what...
00:33:00
Speaker
You look back in history at like why we invented civilization in the first place, right? Like why why primitive humans came together and went, hey, we work better as a society.
00:33:10
Speaker
Well, we created governance so that we wouldn't constantly have to worry about stuff. I mean, on a base level. So it's really doing the opposite of what we kind of invented it for at this point.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah. Like it's making everyone's lives arguably worse all the time. It's like, I think that's
Societal Participation and Responsibilities
00:33:29
Speaker
doing the opposite. i think we somewhere along the line, we got it twisted. Well, and that's always the argument when when I hear from people that say, oh, why should my tax dollars go to this or that? And I just say, dude, do you want to live in a society or not?
00:33:43
Speaker
Right, right. Exactly. Because don't, you don't have to. I mean, i think if someone wants to be in America, but they really don't want to pay taxes, fine. Go somewhere where there are no roads, where there is no mail, electricity. We've got lots of woods. Grow your own food.
00:33:58
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and and yeah, by all means. Some woods somewhere. It'll be great. Have a great time. so off grid. yeah Yeah. Like if, if that's honestly what you want to do, we'll even credit you the free taxpayer funded education yeah and all the medical research that help you grow to the age that you are now. Right. That was on us.
00:34:19
Speaker
You're welcome. You're welcome. the J.D. Vance. Aren't you going to thank us? Right. So let me ask you this. Yeah. a lot of A lot of the guests on my show are people that I know or people that i've I've talked to online for a really long time.
00:34:36
Speaker
You are neither of those things. So what made you want to come here? You know, so a couple of things. Well, one is i and just like to talk to people. Like I have fun on podcasts. I have fun being interviewed. I have fun on panels because it's just it's fun to talk about this stuff. It's fun to talk about process. It's fun to talk about where ideas come from and things.
00:34:55
Speaker
And I don't remember exactly where I came across the Mentally Oddcast. But as soon as I did, but I reached out. i think i think when I reached out to you, was the same day.
00:35:06
Speaker
Because I was looking at this and I'm just like, man, this sounds custom built for me. I'm an open book. I love talking about my own issues and whatever. Like I, you know, I very, very few secrets. I'm not a a private person. I'm not a a tentative introvert. I'm just like, yeah, let's talk about stuff, you know, bring it on.
00:35:25
Speaker
So I think that appealed to me. And the fact that I was looking at your guest list, I'm just like, well, these are all like multi-threat content, you know, creators. These are people who do a variety of things. And that's my thing. I mean, like for better or for worse, i don't know if this helps me with sales and things, but eclecticism is my brand.
00:35:42
Speaker
You know, it always has been like, I do some comedy here and some horror here and this crazy writing experiment here. And now I'm going to work on an album and now I've got a play that I'm producing. And, you know,
00:35:55
Speaker
I'm not saying I do any of those things particularly well, necessarily. and just do a lot of stuff. You know, I like to follow the creative impulse wherever it goes, which I think is what people should do more. It's like, you know, don't pen yourself in and say, well, I'm a poet, so I can only write poetry.
00:36:12
Speaker
Well, you're a poet, but maybe you had an idea for a painting. or a photo shoot or a one man show or whatever, like do that, see what happens, you know? So I think the eclecticism and the fact that you like to talk with people about like the very real core of what it is to be a person in the world and to be an artist in the world. And like that, that really appealed to me.
00:36:37
Speaker
Cool. Well, that's great to hear. Cause you're doing the Lord's work.
00:36:44
Speaker
ah let's Let's not be specific about which Lord. hey Lord. Any Lord. Pick Lord. Lord Farquaad. Yeah, maybe. Because I don't talk about like my own personal religion very much. i'm I'm a humanist. I'm just a regular old humanist.
00:37:01
Speaker
um And financially, I support Satanic Temple. Not a lot. $6.66 a month is the there the Patreon. That seems right. Right. Right.
00:37:13
Speaker
but But yeah, I actually think one of the reasons that I do this is because I want to encourage absolutely everyone cope with art, the arts in general, whether you are just doodling and then it becomes something you want to keep.
00:37:32
Speaker
and And also that it's art for art's sake. Sure. You know, art that, like, everything doesn't have to be a hustle. Right. Everything doesn't have to
Art Accessibility and Expression
00:37:41
Speaker
make you money. It doesn't have to be an income stream.
00:37:44
Speaker
Right. You know, because getting what's on your mind there just out, out of your mind, out of it so that it's not just eating you up inside is so valuable.
00:37:57
Speaker
If I had a lot of money, if I could get a grant, one thing that I would do is I would go to low-income places Like Ipsy and Detroit and Flint and places where people are really struggling and just teach kids art.
00:38:14
Speaker
Like how to tell a story. It doesn't have to be about you, but write a story about something that made you mad. you know Paint a painting of how you feel today. sure. And just find ways to bring it out of people. Well, I think...
00:38:28
Speaker
ah You know, you're you're hitting on something really important, and that's it's one of the things that I get to occasionally do. in my So my day job is in a library. I work in a public library. Okay. And I am lucky enough to work in public library where even as a library assistant, as a part-timer, they give me some leverage to, like, create programming and things like that.
00:38:48
Speaker
And we started doing a zines and chapbooks workshop of my friend Jericho and I last year. And, you know, not even not only for just kids, but the idea behind me wanting to do it in the first place was like, there are a lot of people out there who don't have access to media representation, don't have access to any real platform, but they have something to say or they want to create something. They have an idea inside themselves that they want to express and they don't know that they have a platform or a way to do that.
00:39:20
Speaker
So just teaching people, as you say, like that, here's an option for you that you can create something, you know, that you have a platform, that your ideas are valid, um that you have the right to artistically express yourself, even if I don't necessarily agree with what you're expressing. Like, like just to give people those tools is so important.
00:39:43
Speaker
And, you know, especially people with like ah in low income areas and poverty, things like that, they don't know that they have any option, but but they do. And and so much of that comes through the arts.
00:39:56
Speaker
So 100 percent, I'm I'm with you on that. Like, it's it's so important to give people a voice and to let people know that they even have the possibility of creating something. Yeah. Well, and you know what? I'm going to say something here, and I think some people won't like it, but I think that that is particularly important for men and boys because men and boys are openly, actively
Toxic Masculinity and Artistic Outlets
00:40:22
Speaker
discouraged. That's like one of the worst things about toxic masculinity.
00:40:26
Speaker
is that men aren't supposed to express themselves. a hundred percent And when they do, it's through anger because it just comes busting out of them. But they can cry, they can't disagree, they can't say, hey, don't do that, that hurts me.
00:40:40
Speaker
You know, though yeah they aren't under toxic masculinity, they're not allowed to do any of those things. And then they blame women for it. So yeah that is... That's something that I would love to to really get into and address.
00:40:54
Speaker
I mean, even in like prison, you know that seems like a no-brainer. And I know that there are prisoners you know there are prisons where they have like art programs. yeah So much of that is going away because of for-profit prisons.
00:41:07
Speaker
They'd much rather have the prisoners be like slaves than be and And I know some people are offended when we call the for-profit prison system slavery, but it is slavery. Essentially essentially it is. I mean, you they look at the basic building blocks of it and that's what they're doing.
00:41:24
Speaker
Well, when I found out that prisoners were fighting the fires in California, they were making like two bucks a day or some crazy thing. And, you know, they get like a week of training. It's it's insane. it's It's like, okay, these are people and we lose our basic humanity.
00:41:41
Speaker
And I think, honestly, that is part and parcel to losing our relationship with the arts. And that's one of the reasons I hate ai because the humanities are called that because the whole point is to express the human experience.
00:41:57
Speaker
It's like right there in the word, people.
00:42:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:08
Speaker
i grew up with a you know fairly traditional conservative parents i get along with my parents but i have some complicated feelings about you know certain things obviously and And one of those things is growing up in the Dakotas in a rural area, conservative area.
00:42:23
Speaker
I was supposed to be into like sports and cars, you know, and I wasn't. I was a weird kid. I got into theater and I was into like music and, and you know, all this other just the weird stuff and read a lot, read a lot of books.
00:42:35
Speaker
I am. I know it's crazy. but yeah Well, my my queer friends tell me I'm a little queer. and So I guess i'm I'm at least a safe ally, if nothing else. Are you even allowed to do theater if you're not a little queer? Yeah, I think it's i think it's an it's part of the requirements. I was a theater major, and we didn't really codify it that way. but Right.
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah. But no, it's, you know, it's funny because it's like as an adult now that I'm, I'm finally, you know, comfortable with who I am and everything, you know, ah many, many years it was like, well, I have to put on kind of an, do I try to create this extra layer of masculinity so I don't get beat up or bullied or, you know, whatever it was.
00:43:18
Speaker
Now I can kind of be who I want. And it's so funny because like one of the bands I'm in, I'm in a ah Nine Inch Nails tribute band called Now I'm Nothing in the Chicagoland area. And we play out a lot. and We do kind of the classic Nine Inch Nails look with the cornstarch and the leather and the fishnets and everything else.
00:43:35
Speaker
and Super hyper-aggressive music and whatever. And in that band, it's such some of the nicest guys. And behind the scenes, we we have tried to normalize saying that we love each other, that we like check on each other when we're going home from a gig to make sure we get home okay.
00:43:51
Speaker
Because I think all of us are like that stupid toxic masculinity that keep you keep men from being close and and keep them from being able to like express genuine care and friendship for each other is so stupid and so counterproductive.
00:44:05
Speaker
So I'd like to think there are certain certain sectors that. Where it's like, no, we're trying to normalize like having feelings as men like like and being OK with expressing gentleness. And, you know, I always think about people who aren't your your primary partner.
00:44:25
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Those are the that's the only person that men will be like open or honest with either their moms when they're little or their girlfriend slash wife when they grow up. And it puts so much pressure on that relationship.
00:44:38
Speaker
Sure. Absolutely. Well, and I'm, I'm lucky in that I've always been, um, I've always made connections easier with women in my life, even since I was a kid, which, you know, probably didn't help the, is that guy straight? You know, when I was growing up and being a weird, sensitive kid, who's hanging around the girls a lot, but yeah,
00:44:58
Speaker
But I'm still like that. Like most of my best friends, I have some very good male friends, but most of my best friends are women. um And I think I don't know where that came from, but I'm i'm glad it happened because I think it gave me a ah slightly more nuanced, you know, look into kind of gender politics and stuff as I was growing up in an environment that didn't really allow for that, you know?
00:45:24
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. That makes sense. I think so. So on ah on the pre-interview questionnaire, we ask people about their diagnosis.
Michael's Experience with Depression
00:45:35
Speaker
And you actually describe yourself as having plain old run-of-the-mill depression with all the bells and whistles. So tell me, like, what does that mean? How does that present for you?
00:45:47
Speaker
So, um yeah, I call it plain old run of the mill depression because so many people that I know have like a bipolar diagnosis or, you know, there's there's comorbidities with all sorts of other things.
00:46:02
Speaker
And I joke with those I'm close to, like my partner, for example, I'm like, that like hyper focus and and like having like manic energy look like a superpower to me because I don't get that side of it. and I just get the depressed side of it.
00:46:17
Speaker
So I'm either like normal and functioning or laying on the couch with my cat playing video games, not wanting to ever move again. Like there's no there's no I'm going to clean my house today. All of it twice. You know, I i never get that part.
00:46:32
Speaker
Now that's, that's not how it presents for everybody. I just want to be clear. no i yeah but My mania looks much more like I have had the best idea I've ever had. You guys, I need like $3,000 to be rich.
00:46:48
Speaker
i'm going to six businesses This is where it all turns around, guys. Exactly. exactly But no i you know, if for the longest time, I went and i undiagnosed, as many of us do. and And um it wasn't until i was in graduate school, and this was in the mid-zeros, where I kind of had this moment where I was in a relationship at the time, and I realized that I was able to step back for a minute and look objectively at this relationship because ah we'd been having some problems.
00:47:18
Speaker
And I realized that in certain ways I was being controlling and I was being jealous. And, you know, I started to kind of like try to identify well where was that coming from? Why was I like feeling paranoid and and things like that?
00:47:32
Speaker
And a lot of that stemmed from just general depression, because I realized that that when I'm going through those those phases of of severe depression, it's like, well, yeah, I don't feel like I'm worth anything.
00:47:45
Speaker
I feel like even the people who are claiming to love me, well, it's it must be It's a joke. Or, oh, they must have fallen under the spell of a witch's curse, obviously, because, you know, I'm not worth that. and Have you ever had the, I must be a sociopath because I've tricked everyone into thinking I'm a good person?
00:48:04
Speaker
You know, i i get that. Yeah. But i don't think I don't think I ever felt that clever. I'm like, no, no. And then will say, well, but if you were a sociopath, you would never ask whether or not you would. That's my sociopathy. And then I would say, well, but I know that, though.
00:48:24
Speaker
know that. So see, that's that's just the level of my trickery. That's just how good I am. If you're mixing people, I'm a decent person.
00:48:36
Speaker
No, I was very lucky in that and that I had that kind of those moments of self-reflection. And i um I got a little therapy and that was fine. And I got on meds. And for me, I'm one of those people that medication absolutely saved my life.
00:48:48
Speaker
um I was very lucky in that I found meds that worked for me. um And I have, you know, the emotional memory of how I felt before I was medicated. And I'm like, I don't ever want to go back to that.
00:49:02
Speaker
Like, you know, it's it's worked well enough for me to go. Yeah, no, this is my new normal is OK. I am all right with this. um So I was I was lucky, you know, was that antidepressants or metabolizers?
00:49:17
Speaker
Antidepressants. OK. Yeah. I'm a Zoloft guy. Oh, all right. Yeah, I love the little the little circle with the little frowny face on their commercials. So it sounds like you got a diagnosis and that your first diagnosis was accurate.
00:49:32
Speaker
Yeah, i ah That's fun. it It was. And, you know, I'm also the kind of nerd. I'm I'm kind of a spreadsheet nerd. So when I went into my therapist with a spreadsheet that I'd created through self-reflection about what I thought my various problems were, that was a really good jumping off point for us.
00:49:53
Speaker
so I'm like, well, I'm sort of possessive and controlling when I feel like this. And this is moments where, oh, and let's see, this is like super down and and tired all the time over here. and Well, this when this happened, I'm like, so i basically I made a flow chart Um, not because it was like important homework from a therapist, but because I'm that kind of a nerd where I'm like, I'm going to use some of my, my almost non-existent spare time in graduate school to sit down and make a flow chart about myself and what I think my diagnosis would be. So that helped a lot.
00:50:26
Speaker
Um, they had a really good jumping off point to go, okay, so you feel like this, this, this, and this. I mean, we can do the questionnaire, but you kind of have more information on this than we'd get from that.
00:50:38
Speaker
Well, that is so self-aware. and I don't know. i'm I don't mind being in a room by myself and thinking about stuff. So, you know, it helps, I guess. if That is wow. I mean, that's that's kind of amazing.
00:50:52
Speaker
ah So let me ask you this. So you were diagnosed in graduate school. Yeah. Which means that you went all through school, probably having ah depression impact impact you in various ways that you didn't see.
00:51:05
Speaker
For sure. Right? For sure. So I guess in retrospect, do you think that... there is knowledge that would have helped people recognize that earlier or maybe like if there were accommodations that would have helped you. Like, what do you think would have helped at the time?
00:51:23
Speaker
You know, it's that's ah that's a really emotionally charged question too because I think back sometimes, like we all do, i go, you know, well, what what advice could I go back in time and give myself at 16 or something like that, you know, that would have helped.
00:51:39
Speaker
And looking back, I think one of the biggest things, and I think this is probably – you know ah impacted by the depression is I was so naive for so long.
00:51:51
Speaker
I wasn't really socially apt. I didn't really know how to you know, get along with people. Like I was friendly. That's, you know, I don't mean I was unfriendly or unlikable, but I was just, I was so scared of people bullying me.
00:52:06
Speaker
So scared of people making fun of me, targeting me that a lot of my interactions were colored with that. So I look back now and I think about these moments where I was like, oh, that's when this person was bullying me or this person said something really cruel to me.
00:52:22
Speaker
And I'm trying to look at it objectively nowadays, you know, many years later going, I don't know that they had a cruel intention there. I don't think there was any malice in that. I think they just reacted and I took it as, oh, this is a personal attack.
00:52:38
Speaker
This person is trying to hurt me and and usually succeeding because it was very easy to hurt me. I was really sensitive. And, you know, looking back now, I'm like, I think a lot of that was was depression. You know, it it really, really started in about middle school, you know, as teenager years were coming on.
00:52:57
Speaker
And yeah, i went all through high school and and college without a diagnosis. And I'm like, yeah, there were lots and lots of moments, even sometimes with friends.
00:53:07
Speaker
You know, they'd say something and I would take it so personally and it would wound me so deeply. And I'm thinking back now, and I'm like, I think they were just, it was just friendly teasing. But I couldn't see it as friendly.
00:53:19
Speaker
I couldn't see it as a normal interaction. I saw it as, oh my God, they're trying to hurt me. Well, when you have depression, your fears have...
00:53:31
Speaker
every chance of like just becoming your reality. So instead of saying, you know, I wonder if, if my partner thinks less of me because of this or that you say, oh my God, I've ruined it. I've ruined everything. It's all over with, and you know, if, if a friend makes an errant comment, you don't, it doesn't occur to you to say, Oh, what a silly joke.
00:53:54
Speaker
Because you're too busy dealing with, my God, everybody's looking at me. Everyone's laughing. What are they thinking? I need to leave. Why am I even here? Exactly. You know, and I still, I think on occasion, I still even struggle with that a little bit.
00:54:07
Speaker
Although i've I've, you know, curated this sort
Managing Social Interactions
00:54:10
Speaker
of persona. i'm I'm loud and gregarious and fun. And I like to bring introverts out of their shells at conventions and things. You know, I think some of that was curated partially as a defense mechanism against that.
00:54:21
Speaker
Because if people are laughing with me and I'm the i'm the clown and I'm the you know ah fun one in the room and whatever, well, then they're happy. Then I know they're happy with me.
00:54:32
Speaker
Because they're not, you know, if if everything is too quiet and they're not laughing and they're not engaging, maybe they're thinking about how much they hate me. Yeah, maybe. Maybe they wish I would just leave.
00:54:46
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:54:49
Speaker
Yep. Yep, and I think that also... you know that also um comes out in like our relationships and I think that's why it's so difficult to live with someone with depression I think I was probably 10 years into my relationship with my husband and still being like you know he he would say alright I'm gonna go play video games for a while why?
00:55:13
Speaker
why do you hate me? why don't you enjoy my company? you know? like we've been hanging out all day i mean he would never call me bitch but yeah My poor, my poor beloved partner. i we do have this wonderful relationship, but, but she's, she has her own mental illnesses as well. And, and I know that sometimes we are the same person because, well, what pulls us out of little arguments or whatever is the realization that it's like, oh, you understand exactly how I feel right now and how irrational it is and how stupid it is.
00:55:45
Speaker
And I'm not going to leave you because you, you know, you said some stupid joke about the dishes or something. I'm not going to like, I'm not about to break up with you after 12 years because, because you because you folded a towel wrong. Like it's. Well, that's one of the eternal questions.
00:56:03
Speaker
Like if you're neurodivergent, should your goal be to find a neurotypical person who can deal with you? or another neurodivergent person who is messed up in the same way as you so that you can have a mutual understanding of each other.
00:56:18
Speaker
But then you've got two crazy people trying to work their shit out in the same space. i think mileage may vary depending on the depending on the specific diagnosis. But yeah, that is the eternal question.
00:56:30
Speaker
Right. So I had looked over your your info and you've actually won some awards and I want to talk about that. and Awards are like not anywhere in my purview. It would never occur to me to submit myself for an award. And I don't know that anyone with any like say so has has done that on my behalf.
00:56:51
Speaker
do Do you find awards to be validating? um Well, in my case... I found there. um So I received the Wonderland Awards, as you as you said in the opening. um ah one I won 2021 for Jurassic Christ for Best Bizarro Novel and 2022 Best Bizarro Collection for Last Five Minutes of the Human Rays.
00:57:11
Speaker
And in those cases, they were incredibly validating to me. Partially because they're community awarded awards. They're not a juried award.
Community and Validation in Art
00:57:21
Speaker
They're something that the whole community votes on.
00:57:24
Speaker
um And historically, as as somebody famously once said when they won a Wonderland, sure, awards are a popularity contest, but who doesn't want to be popular? And what they were kind of pointing out is this is a community award.
00:57:39
Speaker
It's given to people not only for the quality of their work, but also because the community feels that they're a representative force for the Bizarro community in this case.
00:57:51
Speaker
So I think, you know, depending on the award, it can be very meaningful if it's like in this case, it was, oh, Michael's been around forever. He's done the work.
00:58:02
Speaker
He's, you know, ah like puts in all of the support and other people and whatever. And he wrote this cool book. We can reward that effort by saying, hey, you're doing good. Here's a reward because this book was cool. And, and you know, to some degree, so are you.
00:58:21
Speaker
So I think those community awards to me are very validating because they they kind of point to the fact that you've stuck around, done the work and are doing good. um I suppose it's a little bit different from a jury to word, but I will say that, yeah, I do find them validating in the same way that like a short story acceptance. If I get one of those, I find it validating, even if it's just that one person found it, what they were looking for on that one day at that one time.
00:58:48
Speaker
Like that still counts. I think when, you know, it's like, okay, well the jury found this work to be good on this day at this time. I think it's just, it's not the end all be all, but I do find it validating for sure.
00:59:03
Speaker
Okay, cool. Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense to me, actually. I think if I did win an award, it would just give me scorching imposter syndrome. You know, i in this case, it it took it away a little bit for me.
00:59:18
Speaker
Because I think for the longest time, it felt very imposter-y. But when when your whole community comes together and and says, you're doing the thing, like, I don't know, there's something about that that's like, oh, I'm seen in a way that maybe I didn't know that I would be.
00:59:36
Speaker
That makes total sense. See, i have an abuser voice in the back of my head constantly telling me that I suck and I don't deserve anything. And if something good happens to me, that's kind of worse.
00:59:48
Speaker
You know, like if I fail, it's like, oh, well, of course you failed. You're a failing failure. But then if I succeed at something, it's like, oh, so now you think you're better than everybody else. Like it's way worse and because it's not just like, you know, reminding me that I'm a failure is one thing. It's like I already know that.
01:00:06
Speaker
Yeah. taken me down a few pegs when I feel good about myself. Oh, my abuser was so into that. Mm. You know, because they had a kid really early and they didn't get to do anything with their life. And then they, you know, blame the kid instead of the people that made all those decisions.
01:00:22
Speaker
Sure. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I can see that. I can see that being a thing for sure. Well, and I think I've come around because I imposter syndrome was very, very bad for me for the first.
01:00:35
Speaker
I mean, for the first quite a chunk of what I guess I would call my professional career, ah because my first book was published in 2011. So I guess I've been at this on some professional level or so for over a decade now.
01:00:49
Speaker
And I would say for the first almost a decade, imposter syndrome was way high, you know, just just phenomenally high. And it took until I started to get kind of I don't know, there's a certain quantity of, like, acceptances of short stories, winning the Wonderland, getting enough stuff published by different presses, you know, ah where I guess it took a certain amount of voices to to start to overwhelm the voice of the imposter syndrome.
01:01:18
Speaker
ah That had been so very loud for so long. and And I think for me, it took it took a certain bulk of people to be like, oh, it's not just one or two people that like me or are pretending to like me. It's, you know, if if if this many people are pretending that I'm good, like not only is it the first real evidence of a real conspiracy theory I've seen, but what a dumb way to waste their time.
01:01:47
Speaker
Right. But yeah, you know one my book is like the moon landing. Oh, wait. What really did it for me actually was. um So you want to hear ah you want to hear kind of a sweet story?
01:02:01
Speaker
Yes. This blew my mind. So um last summer. um So I've had a couple of cool experiences, you know, where it's like at a convention a couple of years ago in Texas, like somebody stopped me to get a book signed and stuff. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I'm like, are you are you looking at me or like over my shoulder? I'm like, am I supposed to give you a hug? But but I remember that. You think I'm Joe Hill?
01:02:22
Speaker
Four different people stopped me at um at this festival and and asked me to sign something. I'm like, holy crap. OK, that's cool. Somebody knows who I am. Wow.
01:02:33
Speaker
Which was amazing. But then last summer. After all of this, you know, I'm like, okay, well, maybe I'm not complete crap, right? And we were going to visit my folks up in the Dakotas. So my partner and I are on this road trip. We're taking a big old road trip up from Chicago through South Dakota up into North Dakota to see my folks and to see my half sister from Holland who I hadn't seen in almost 20 years.
01:02:58
Speaker
um who had come over to to hang out with my dad for his birthday. and so it was like this big thing where I'm like, okay, I'm going to see friends. I'm going see family. getting away for a little romantic trip with my partner.
01:03:10
Speaker
Can I also make this some kind of professional development? So we we were looking into that and we were friendly with, there's a manager of a Barnes and Noble in in South Dakota who orders indie horror stuff.
01:03:26
Speaker
So I reached out. I'm like, hey, you know, we're going to drive through sioux Falls. Could we maybe do a little event or something? She was like, yeah, sure, we can set that up. So, you know, I'm like, well, nobody knows who I am, you you know, and it's it's the middle of South Dakota. It's like the the likelihood of anything coming of this is fairly small.
01:03:45
Speaker
But let's do it. It'll be fun. We'll do another like a little bookstore in my old hometown, you know, and in Minot, North Dakota. We'll do this Barnes and Noble. We'll call it a little mini book tour. Right.
01:03:56
Speaker
Just for fun. So we get to this Barnes and Noble and I'm sitting there and they set up my little table and they ordered some of my books. I'm like, this is cool. Like I've never gotten to do a signing at, know, a major retailer like this.
01:04:10
Speaker
And my partner, Sauda, is sitting next to me and I'm like, yeah, i don't I don't think anyone's going to show up just for me. You know, like I might get lucky and talk to some people and maybe they'll buy a book. And she's like, well, yeah, but you know what?
01:04:24
Speaker
Just doing this is cool. Like you'll be able to say, hey, I did a signing at a Barnes and Noble. I'm like, oh yeah, you're right. You know, that's that's something. Okay. So I'm looking at it a little more positively. And as we're sitting there, I'm getting to talk to people that come in and I'm starting to sell a few books.
01:04:40
Speaker
And, you know, my my luck has always been at the table. Like, i'm ah you know, i'm i'm I'm goofy and I'm talkative and I like to chat with people. So um I'm telling them about my crazy books. And I've got Jurassic Christ there, as well as I have a ah noir book called Embry um about a chicken detective in a world of eggs.
01:04:59
Speaker
Uh, so I have those two books and I'm telling people about these, you know, as' goofiness and I'm starting to sell books. And at one point the manager comes up and she's like, I just ran the numbers. I saw you've like sold like 13 books. i'm like, yeah, it's crazy. Like but it's going really well.
01:05:14
Speaker
So I'm having fun and I'm like, well, this is good. So we're getting toward the end of the event. And I realized that there's this kid standing nearby. who looks probably about like 14.
01:05:26
Speaker
and don't know. Something like that. 13, 14. And his mom is standing there. And I kind of give him my, hey there, how you doing? You know, spiel and whatever. And we're chatting a little bit. And she goes, yeah, he he wanted to come over here. And I'm like, oh And as I'm standing there, I realize, oh, okay, that I think the kid is autistic. He's showing a lot of signs of of autism here. Okay, that's cool. She's doing a lot of the speaking for him. That's fine.
01:05:50
Speaker
You know, he's having some trouble with eye contact and stuff, but I'm i'm talking to him. And, you know, he's's he'll mutter something here and there. And I realize he's holding a copy of Jurassic Christ, but it's worn.
01:06:06
Speaker
It's not from the table. And I'm like, oh, and and Sada kind of points this out to me. And she's like, hey, that's that's not. I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah. And I go, oh, so so what brought you guys in today?
01:06:18
Speaker
And his mom goes, well, we bought this book a month or two ago here in Sioux Falls and he saw you were coming. So we drove an hour upstate here to come see you.
01:06:30
Speaker
And I'm like, oh my God. Okay, sure. Of course. Will you sign it? Of course I'll sign it You know, and um'm I'm signing it. I'm like, that's amazing. Like they, you know, this kid saw I was coming and and they're like, we want to buy your other book too. I'm like, oh sure, of course. You know, I'll sign that too. And then he says something quietly to his mom. He's like, she's like, oh yeah, we need to buy one more copy of each of these because his best friend's birthday is coming up and he wanted to give his best friend your books.
01:06:59
Speaker
And like, oh my God, that's amazing. So I'm feeling like super touched, right? it gets It gets better. And this is what Sauda has told me every time I get down on myself, every time I get real self-deprecating about my work, she's going to remind me of this kid. And I i think it's probably okay.
01:07:17
Speaker
We'll call him Alex for the sake of this conversation. She'll be like, remember Alex. I'll be like, okay. So we're chatting and I'm like, yeah, of course I'll sign these things for you, whatever.
01:07:30
Speaker
So I'm talking with mom and I say, well, what what kind of books does Alex normally like to read? And she goes, he doesn't. This is the first book he's ever really loved.
01:07:43
Speaker
And I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, he's never really found a book he was that interested in. And I hear the kid go, yeah, it just sounded like an interesting premise. I'm like, oh. And I somehow, the the the little weird books that I write,
01:08:00
Speaker
taught the joy of reading to a kid who's struggled with autism. Like how insane is that? Damn dude, that is bad ass. So like, like, you know, talking earlier about like what, what does success mean?
01:08:17
Speaker
And, and when do you know, like that right there, like, Oh my God, like that. And that is whenever the imposter syndrome screams at me, Sada will be like, remember Alex?
01:08:30
Speaker
Like, oh, yeah. Well, you made a tangible lasting difference in the life of a human that you did not know. How crazy is that? like i That's it, man. That's yeah that's the game.
01:08:43
Speaker
That's what it's about. So that that to me was like, that was the moment where I'm like, maybe maybe the stuff I'm making does matter. It doesn't have to matter on a mass scale. doesn't matter that I'm not hitting like New York Times bestseller lists or whatever.
01:08:56
Speaker
What matters is I made some art that resonated with somebody to such a huge degree that it made a real human difference in their life. And that's like amazing. i will um never I'll never not get goosebumps when I talk about that.
01:09:13
Speaker
Yeah, I would imagine so. That is awesome. That is awesome. So, like, on that note, what, I guess maybe it's not on that note.
01:09:25
Speaker
That's okay. the Well, the note is you being inspiring, okay? Because the question is, what what advice do you have for younger creators that struggle with, with depression.
01:09:39
Speaker
um sure you know, autism is all often a part of that. I don't want to say always, cause you know, I'm not a doctor. I don't know the numbers, sure but I mean, I found out that I'm autistic, like way late in life. It was like two years ago that doctor was like, well, yeah, ah yeah. That, that seems obvious to me. and suddenly iul diagnose you But yeah,
01:10:01
Speaker
well yeah and i mean Aside from like feeling really angry because I should have been diagnosed when I was, you know, five or 50 something. Sure.
01:10:12
Speaker
And that like my whole life would have gone differently. Like I work service jobs for like 20 years. An autistic person who doesn't know they're autistic should not be anywhere near the service industry. For sure.
01:10:23
Speaker
For sure. No way. And yet, you know, and that's the thing the whole time. It's like, why is this so hard for me? Other people can do this. Why can't I do this? I'm not stupid. I'm not lazy.
01:10:33
Speaker
so why does anything ever work the way it's supposed to for me? And that's why. yeah absolutely. Like, you know, and I had to almost die to to figure it out.
01:10:46
Speaker
And I mean, and then I think about like all the people you go through their whole lives with those pieces missing and they never get the help that they need. yeah Like how long has that happened through history?
01:10:58
Speaker
Which is why I get so mad when people are like, hey, nobody had autism in my day. Like, yeah, they did. They didn't know what to Exactly. There were a bunch of undiagnosed people running around having harder lives than you needed to. That's that's what you're, right yeah, that's the part you didn't see. And that's the whole point. It's not about making excuses for people. It's about understanding what is happening with people so that everybody has a chance to be their best. hundred percent 100%. Well, my advice.
01:11:27
Speaker
oh boy. Coming off of that.
Kindness, Community, and Boundaries
01:11:29
Speaker
You know what? I'll give ah the same advice whether you're suffering from depression, whether you're you're a just starting out writer like I think the best piece of advice i could give is don't be an asshole.
01:11:43
Speaker
Be nice, be kind. It's not hard to be kind. um Find your people and make friends. It's just like we learned in kindergarten. You know, i I've seen so many times where people, especially in like bizarro and horror and some of the um the more extreme genres, they'll come out of nowhere and insist that they're like some sort of lone wolf They're this badass edgelord. They don't need anybody, blah, blah, blah. Like that's their brand.
01:12:12
Speaker
And yeah dude, that's just called being unlikable. And it always, always bears out that way because then it's like the alien is man. yeah Exactly. And they alienate everybody. And it's like, no, dude, make friends, be nice.
01:12:25
Speaker
You know, I'm at this point, I'm in my forties, but I'm still feel like I'm too old now to deal with assholes. I'm done dealing with assholes. I'm done. um I want to deal with nice people, fun people, people who support each other, people who care, people who want to make art and collaborate and have fun.
01:12:42
Speaker
And over long term, turns out I was right. Because, you know, all through my 20s and 30s, I saw people surpassing me by taking shortcuts and stepping on other people and, you know, like getting those short term gains.
01:12:55
Speaker
I'm like, I don't think that's the way like and sure enough, I would say probably 80 percent of those people I'm I'm, you know, referencing either burn themselves out.
01:13:06
Speaker
Or they no longer do stuff because nobody really wants to work with them anyway. And they're just like these curmudgeonly, you know, shut up assholes. And it's like, yeah, because you forgot that we are each other's best support.
01:13:21
Speaker
It's not us against each other. It's us against the world. The rising tide really does raise all ships. yeah and And like, I truly believe that and try to demonstrate that whenever I can, you know, whatever I'm doing in the scene or in an organization or whatever. It's like, I truly believe in collaboration and kindness.
01:13:38
Speaker
So my biggest advice is don't think you can go it alone and be some kind of badass. Make friends, be nice, support each other's stuff. That's like the bottom line for me.
01:13:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great philosophy. It really is. um i do want to amend one thing, though. Sure. Because if you are a broken person, if you are hurting and have unacknowledged issues, it's not always easy to be kind.
01:14:09
Speaker
Sure. And that's actually a good barometer for whether or not you need help, whether or not you need therapy, whether or not you need to reevaluate, maybe even think about medication.
01:14:21
Speaker
Because if it's your intention to be a kind and decent person, but you find that your behavior does not always reflect that, man, you don't know me from the internet, but I can be a real, real serious, sarcastic, smug bitch on the internet talking to MAGA people and whatnot.
01:14:39
Speaker
Sure. um I am not always as nice or kind as I i wish I was. sure So just just a little caveat there, because it's it's free to be kind. It doesn't cost you anything monetarily, usually. Usually.
01:14:53
Speaker
um usually like here No, I think, you know, that's a good, depending on where you hang out, because there's this push against empathy now that like empathy can lead you into bad things. And you know, the, like the toxic empathy and all this weird shit that mean people are talking about.
01:15:12
Speaker
But, uh, But yeah, like it, it can be hard to be kind. And that's why there are people that are deliberately fucking up the world right now, because the more desperate people are, the more frightened they are, the more they lack resources for people that they love.
01:15:30
Speaker
The harder it is to be kind to each other, the harder it is to look at people and try to understand them. And you're right. the The antidote to that is is kindness. It's empathy. It's yeah seeing other people as people and expressing what you actually want to express in a way that is not hurtful.
01:15:48
Speaker
And again, that brings us back to the humanities, back to the humanities. You know what? And your caveat is is totally justified. and And I'll even add one of my own. And I will say, remember, too, that kindness doesn't necessarily equate to an inability to set boundaries or, or um you know, protect yourself. Right.
01:16:10
Speaker
i I was often, you know, i was talking about my naivete as a younger person, I was often taken advantage of because I was naive and just wanted everyone to be nice and, you know, assumed good intentions.
01:16:24
Speaker
And some people will take advantage of that. So I have learned over time also that it's important to be able to build boundaries and protect yourself against those who would use cruelty to take advantage of your kindness.
01:16:39
Speaker
Well, that's the thing about bullies, man, is that bullies are the first people to tell you, hey, you got to have a sense of humor about yourself. And there's a big difference between having a sense of humor about yourself and having to tolerate cheering and cruelty from assholes.
01:16:56
Speaker
Absolutely. So I think, yeah, I guess my default is be kind, be nice, make friends, but but also get help if you feel that you need it and you aren't being your best self and be ready to protect yourself against cruel people who will take advantage of you.
01:17:17
Speaker
Well, and that's another great reason to build community. hu Because I'll tell you, i was once accused of something bad that I did not do by someone in the horror community.
01:17:28
Speaker
And I honestly, this person is a, well, they're a white male that's been in the biz for a long time and I'm basically a nobody and I can be kind of obnoxious. So I'm not everyone's friend. Sure. um And I really was not sure if my reputation in the community could withstand kind of accusation. And sure and it did.
01:17:51
Speaker
It did. People that do me were like, No, dude, of course we know you didn't do that. Sure. Like, okay. But not everyone did. Like, there was someone that I was, like, forming a a professional relationship with that just dropped me like a rock. Like, nope, I don't want any part of that. I don't care if you were accused. i don't want to be around it. I'm like, well...
01:18:10
Speaker
You know, there's there's nothing I can do about that. Right. But it's also like, i mean, it's kind of it's kind of none of my business. You know, it's like, well, if that's what you think, I'm not going to spend any time whatsoever trying to change your mind. because Yeah.
01:18:26
Speaker
I mean, that's the thing. And you so you see it too, all the time. Anybody who's online sees it all the time. There's all always drama in writing circles. Always somebody, you know, he said, she said, always some controversy. and And you know what? If it doesn't, and that's that's another piece of advice.
01:18:43
Speaker
If it doesn't affect you, it might be wise to sit for a minute and decide whether your voice is really needed. Because so often people will jump in with crazy, like, either pylons or their take on things or whatever. And it's like, was it necessary?
01:19:01
Speaker
Really? Because you weren't involved in any of this. And now someone else's dirty laundry is hanging on your line. And that's not a good look either.
Public Opinions and Celebrity Culture
01:19:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it kind of depends because, you know, obviously public figures, but that's that is one of the things that is is true of the Internet now. When something happens, everybody wants to share their opinion on it. And for a while, I like hearing everybody's opinion, but then it's like, well, yes, but Ophelia is bad. I think we're all on the same page. Oh, we're not.
01:19:35
Speaker
We're not all on page. Yeah. Well, it used to be novel to be able to share opinions. It used to be ah an exciting new thing. And now it's like, oh, I've heard everyone's opinions about things that don't want to.
01:19:52
Speaker
Well, but, you know, it used to be exciting and novel to see what your favorite celebrities are having for dinner. And honestly, I think sometimes it still is. Sometimes. You know, it's like, wow, that guy from Breaking Bad puts caviar on everything. Wild. Even ice cream. Crazy.
01:20:12
Speaker
Well, they were putting it on donuts. I'm just like, I don't even I don't even know what to tell you guys. I don't think I want a caviar donut. Now that I think about it. I would like a lifestyle where that isn't option.
01:20:25
Speaker
Yeah. Actually, that's not true. I just don't want to have to save up to go to the dentist. Yes. That's the kind of lifestyle I want. Yeah, I want the kind of lifestyle where I can, like, go to the doctor when I'm sick or not, you know, do, like, advanced calculus when I'm going to take my girlfriend to dinner.
01:20:43
Speaker
Right, right. I don't know if I can afford to eat. Yeah.
01:20:48
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I know one time my TV actually broke and it was the first night of Shark Week. hidden You know, first world problems and everything, but there was no way we could buy a new one. And this takes us back to community because I went online and I said, what cruel fate is this?
01:21:05
Speaker
My TV is is dead on the first night of Shark Week. ah And within three hours, two people were like, yeah, I can bring you a TV right now. That's awesome. I had a TV in time for Shark Week.
01:21:18
Speaker
Well, because first of all, those those big TVs that look like a box, you know, from when we were little, the old CRT ones. Everybody's got one just sitting in a spare room in case their flat screen goes out.
01:21:30
Speaker
It's like a tiny end table in our guest room at this point. So yeah, no, I get you. Yeah.
Overcoming Suicidal Ideation
01:21:36
Speaker
So we actually have a question in our questionnaire because we want affirmative consent to ask guests about a time in their life when they were in a legitimate fear for their life.
01:21:49
Speaker
And you indicated that you were okay with answering this question. So please tell us. um You know, that was an interesting question too, because it it made me think of, you know, situations where I was in some kind of danger or something, I don't often get into dangerous situations. But the first thing it made me think of, and maybe this is in the context of the rest of the questions, is, you know, when my suicidal ideation has gotten to the point where I'm like, is this, you know, am I actually kind of, how serious am I about this?
01:22:22
Speaker
And i do remember a couple of times like that. And I've always been able to pull myself out of it intellectually because if emotionally I'm feeling very damaged and I don't have any emotional defenses left, a lot of times for me it comes back around to using logic to sort of diffuse the bomb, you know?
01:22:47
Speaker
So I'll, I'll think about, okay, well, if I did do this, that would be impulsive. And I don't do well with impulsive. I'm one of those people. And I think it's because like my dad was a yeller.
01:23:02
Speaker
um I saw him fly off the handle for no reason. So I developed internal mechanisms to be like, OK, well, anger is unproductive most of the time. So I'm going to be able to stop that train from, you know, crashing into things.
01:23:17
Speaker
And I know it's not necessarily healthy, but we were talking earlier about the superpowers we developed. and And one of mine is definitely being very emotionally in control of myself. So I think that's what always pulled me back from the brink is going, well, this would be an emotional, impulsive thing to do.
01:23:34
Speaker
And if I think about it for half a second, there's lots and lots of reasons that this would be a bad idea. And it's funny that, you know, we're talking about this because in that context, weirdly enough, so I just had a birthday and for a couple years there, I was really having trouble with the concept of getting older because in, you know, and part of my brain, I'm still in my twenties, you know, my body certainly doesn't feel that way.
01:24:03
Speaker
But I'm like, yeah, I'm still a goofy college, you know, dork I was then and whatever, you know, essentially. And, you know, i I was having trouble with the aging thing until just the last year or two, ah started to think about all the people who have died young, um whether through suicide or through addiction or, you know, a million other things.
01:24:26
Speaker
And all these rock stars and people that I looked up to and how many of them, you know, didn't even get to 30. and yeah And I got to thinking as much trouble as I'm having with the idea of getting older, it's so much better that I can still experience things.
01:24:46
Speaker
I can experience life.
Comedy as a Defense Mechanism
01:24:48
Speaker
and And, you know, I was and i was an existentialist. Like, i read a lot of Sartre and Camus and things in college, of course. And like the idea that it's, you know, there is no cosmic oneness that's guiding us or anything like that. We're just, we're a weird statistical anomaly on a ball of dirt flying through space.
01:25:07
Speaker
and And I take weird comfort in that because I'm like, well, then... All we are is is the things that that we do and how we perceive the world and the universe around us.
01:25:18
Speaker
And the fact that I can do that is such a statistical anomaly. I should really enjoy it while I've got it. So i I think it's like the fact that I have the ability to experience things, whether they're good or bad or happy or sad, is such an infinitesimally small chance of that happening.
01:25:40
Speaker
I should embrace that for as long as possible. Nice. I think that's what really, really keeps me keeps me motivated to just keep going.
01:25:54
Speaker
Love it. Love everything about it. I actually have to tell you, since you just brought up Sartre, that ah my senior directing project, because I was a double major, broadcasting and theater, um ah No Exit.
01:26:08
Speaker
Oh, God, I love No Exit. I love No Exit so much. yeah So much. It was something else. Yeah, I learned a lot about myself. I was theater major, too, by the way, in case we didn't talk about that.
01:26:19
Speaker
Nice. Yeah, I figured. Oh, God, I love No Exit so much. Yeah, ah it's it's a good one. so So let me ask you this.
01:26:31
Speaker
um How often does your ah emotional and mental state or or just like the the issue of depression? How often does that come up in your work?
01:26:43
Speaker
You know, I, it's hard to answer that. um I think because I experienced my work, obviously, so much differently from from other people. But I think maybe it goes back to what I was saying earlier about like, you know, being a comedian, being the funny guy is is a self-defense kind of mechanism.
01:27:03
Speaker
um I write a lot of funny stuff, like even in some of my more Even some of my more serious work will have moments of comedy, but a lot of my stuff, whether it's horror or sci-fi or bizarro, there's comedy elements in it.
01:27:18
Speaker
And i think comedy is so important to me because... It's, I don't know, it's it's special in a lot of ways, but one of the things is it's a defense mechanism.
01:27:31
Speaker
So I think you see less of my depression in my work and more of what I use to fight it, if that makes sense.
01:27:42
Speaker
Yeah, very much so. Yeah, I don't think, you don't you're not going to read my stuff and be like, it's like this Sylvia Plath sort of like, wow, you know, this is, this is I'm going to slit my wrists after I read this with the page and paper cut myself today. Just describe a Luke already, gee. Exactly.
01:27:59
Speaker
yes But yeah, like, I'm like, you know, and I always think back and it's, it's, it's cliche at this point, sadly, but like you look at Robin Williams and, and they often cite his suicidal ideation and depression.
01:28:13
Speaker
Um, when they talk about the old, um, the old joke about, you know, like the guy goes to the therapist and he's like, I'm depressed. He's like, Oh, you should see, you know, this great clown he's in town. And like, but doctor, I am that clown, you know? Yeah.
01:28:28
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, right? Like funny people are, are often hiding trauma and wounds. And I'm sure I'm no exception to that, but I like to think that I've come out the other side for most of it.
01:28:42
Speaker
And what's left is the ability to make people laugh. And, and, you know, ideally that's doing something good for that, that came from, you know, the traumas that it was originally designed to combat.
01:29:00
Speaker
ah You know what? I am actually being so rude right now because what you just said gave me an idea for a story and I had to write it down because now I i want to explore Roger Rabbit's childhood trauma.
01:29:14
Speaker
Oh, my God. That sounds awesome. yeah right then that said that I don't want anyone to steal that idea. That's that's bizarro right there. And you know what? You know what? You just as far as I'm concerned, you just claim the idea like you did it publicly in broadcast form. And I'm saying that right there. That's a bizarro pitch, man.
01:29:32
Speaker
That's.
01:29:34
Speaker
That's that's ah that's something of beauty. My parents, you know, when I was a little rabbit, they just couldn't stop breeding. Bread like rabbits. They were so real. They were always hungry. Always hungry.
01:29:46
Speaker
And after a while, it just made Dad angry.
01:29:50
Speaker
I like where this is going. This is good stuff. Give me seedy underbelly of Toontown, you know?
Exploring Religious Satire
01:29:59
Speaker
ah Tell me about Jurassic Christ.
01:30:02
Speaker
Absolutely. ah So Jurassic Christ is the story of the second coming of Jesus Christ. But because he is an extra spatial deity, time and space don't really apply to him.
01:30:13
Speaker
So on his way back, he misses and ends up in the Jurassic period fighting dinosaurs. So it's it's nonfiction. um It's the ah the one true gospel. Yeah.
01:30:25
Speaker
No, it's, uh, it, it starts out and, and what's fun about it is it seems when I describe it to people, they think they know what they're getting into and it's going to be okay. So it's like Jesus Christ running through the jungle commando style with a machine gun fighting dinosaurs.
01:30:39
Speaker
Yeah. It starts that way, but then it goes to much weirder places, believe it or not. Like, um, he essentially discovers that the dinosaurs had a whole civilization going and what we thought of them or thought about what we knew of them is completely wrong.
01:30:54
Speaker
um mammals, we were never supposed to make it this far. Somebody tweaked the settings on evolution and screwed things up because mammals were these disgusting creatures that were obsessed with basically made on TV or as seen on TV products.
01:31:10
Speaker
And somebody decided to put them on the top of the heap. So now he's got to get back to the metaverse to figure out who in this cosmic conspiracy has tweaked to the settings and made things wrong. Mm-hmm.
01:31:23
Speaker
All right. Who gave the Hubitz gunpowder? That was not a good thing to do. Exactly. So, yeah, it goes it goes from there on this. It becomes a space and time traveling romp through metaphysical and theological ideas. And it's, you know, I honestly one of the best reviews I got of that book was from a a horror writer and sadly deceased now, ah Jay Wilburn, who was also a devout Christian.
01:31:46
Speaker
And would really engage philosophically and theologically with people like in really cool ways. He was just the coolest guy. And he read Jurassic Christ and through his lens, you know, as ah as a religious man, but also as a horror guy.
01:32:02
Speaker
He loved it. And he said, one of the best things I think anybody could have said about it, he said, you didn't punch down. Like, it's actually thoughtful. And it's not just like low-hanging fruit, religion's stupid. you know It wasn't that. It was like, I'm actually engaging with theology and philosophy and and you know treating JC as sort of this rebel hero figure that we like to think he would have actually been.
01:32:28
Speaker
Cool. It's a fun story. love that. I love that. Because, like, I've done a few short stories um that that deal in religion. And I think that that's so important that you're saying something more than like, I don't agree with Christianity or look, there's hypocrisy in Christianity. Cause first of all, that's, it's just so fucking tired.
01:32:51
Speaker
yeah But to, to say something new and to, I actually have a spiritual advisor. He's a a dude I went to college with and he's a um Episcopalian minister.
01:33:02
Speaker
And so whenever I'm talking about, the Christian religion. i tend to talk to him about it instead of my husband, even though my husband's also a Christian, um because I want to make sure like I'm up. It should spark discussion, you know, and it's, it's cool with me if people disagree about it, but I never want to be disrespectful and I want to make sure everything I'm saying is true. I don't want to i accuse people of having a theology that they do not have.
01:33:30
Speaker
Right. Yeah. yeah my ah My beloved Sauda, who I mentioned earlier, my partner, she was so instrumental in getting Jurassic Christ finished because she grew up yeah being Lutheran on weekends and going to Catholic school during the week.
01:33:45
Speaker
So she had both sides of that particular debate. And she was basically my religious knowledge reader. So she'd be like, you know, this would be way funnier if you if you mentioned, you know, Nicaea or whatever, you know, like just i't hope it was so so it was nice to have somebody who was ah armed.
01:34:04
Speaker
Yeah. correctly, theologically to help me you know tighten up the comedy. But yeah, it's um a lot of my stuff you'll find, Jurassic Christ being one example, is I like a very silly, high concept sort of goofy premise, but usually, and this is at least according to people who've reviewed my stuff, I wouldn't know myself, but ah there's something seriously being said underneath that, like a lot of social satire I like to talk about, you know, class and religion and politics and things, but couch that in comedy and ridiculousness because I think it's like, that's how you, you get past people's defenses that way.
01:34:44
Speaker
You know, comedy punches viscerally. It hits your gut before it hits your brain and then it's already inside, you know? Yep. Yep. Well, and, I mean, people don't want to be preached at, but they will take in a message if you if it's an entertaining time.
01:35:03
Speaker
Absolutely. And you know, people care about the characters, you'd you'd think. I mean, it it kind of weirds me out that there are so many MAGA boys that are Star Wars fans.
Misinterpretation of Cultural Figures
01:35:13
Speaker
Yeah. You know, like, did you watch Andor? Because who do you think Andor is? not drunk. Or for that matter, you know, listening to bands like Rage Against the Machine or Ministry, like, when did they become woke?
01:35:24
Speaker
When? What
01:35:28
Speaker
are you talking about? Did you ever read a lyric sheet? What did the machine mean? Well, yeah, like, I talked to somebody who had, like, just figured out what Born in the USA is about. Oh, yes.
01:35:41
Speaker
And that is like, well, why do they play it it at MAGA things? I'm like, dude, I don't They don't get I don't think anybody knows. They don't understand. um the dude from, do the gun remember the band Stained?
01:35:53
Speaker
um hu That dude is is, he's gone weird MAGA now. And he's super mad at Bruce Springsteen about Born in the USA. And he he had this whole screed about how, like, it was so ridiculous. Like, dude, were you not paying attention since, I mean, that song is yeah older than your career.
01:36:13
Speaker
yeah and and now you're mad about it because you've swallowed the poop juice or whatever they're drinking over there. ah It's ivermectin, right? Oh, that's right. there are Bleach.
01:36:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
Horror and Comedy Crossover
01:36:31
Speaker
so So we talked about this a little bit, but like the crossover between horror and comedy is something I feel really strongly about, obviously, because I'm the publisher of sometimes hilarious horror magazines. Absolutely. um Because it's so, I think, yeah very much like what you were saying. like Once you you connect to someone with comedy, and you it it builds that trust between oh yeah the reader and and the author. yeah.
01:36:59
Speaker
one led one of the anywhere One of the big drums that I beat over and over again is how comedy and horror have something in common that's very special as far as like types of storytelling go, because both of them hit you viscerally.
01:37:13
Speaker
So you know you laugh at something That's a gut reaction before you have a chance to process it. Or you're scared of something, you scream or you jump. That's a visceral reaction before you have a chance to process it.
01:37:25
Speaker
And if you can combine those two things, that's like magic. Really, the only the only real things that do that, horror, comedy, and sex. It's like you can scare somebody, you can make them laugh, or you can turn them on before their brains have a chance to really catch up.
01:37:42
Speaker
you know it So if you can combine those things, and I think that's why you know horror and comedy, such a wonderful connection. And then, of course, comedy and sex and horror and sex also have long histories of you know of of being married together. Because if you can control those things and hit somebody right in the lizard brain, man, that's magic. like we're We're doing real magic there.
01:38:08
Speaker
yeah. oh yeah
01:38:11
Speaker
Yes. So what is your favorite horror comedy? Oh, gosh um gosh. I'll give you two. I'll give you a movie and I'll give you a book. um I would say and movie, probably ah Tucker and Dale vs. Evil.
01:38:30
Speaker
Oh, my God. I swear to you, I almost need my pants the first time I saw it. It's so wonderful. When guy goes to the wood chipper, was, I mean... It's so good. And they really get it, you know, cause they're, and they're doing what Bizarro does too. They're deconstructing the tropes, you know, they're taking, they, they know the horror tropes, they're deconstructing them. They're taking them and and turning them upside down or putting them backwards.
01:38:53
Speaker
And then, you know, gives us that much more fodder for comedy. and And, and that's just, it's such a brilliantly done movie. And I think that's one of the fun things about horror comedy. Some of the stuff that seems the dumbest on the surface is the smartest underneath that because the thing they're making fun of, the reason it looks dumb on the surface is they're making fun of a dumb trope, but they're doing it in a smart way. It's, it's satire, not parody, you know?
01:39:19
Speaker
Well, um, well, park. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and then the book I would say is actually based on a movie. um A few years ago, Jeff Strand, who is one of the absolute kings of horror comedy, did a um a novelization of the movie Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, yeah. It's amazing. I follow Jeff Strand.
01:39:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah. That book is so much fun. And it's it's so funny that, like, just just the concept of, like, you know what needs a novelization? Killer Tomatoes.
01:39:51
Speaker
Like, I loved that movie as a kid. Oh, yeah. Well, and in the book, then he he makes it even more meta. So it's like it's sort of a novelization, but it's also a meta novelization where he's talking about the fact that it's a novelization. And he goes into like, oh, it's it's just it's a beautiful again, deconstructing the tropes, so you know, taking what we think we know about how a genre works and completely fucking with it.
01:40:16
Speaker
I have to say I was introduced to that concept when I was a kid. Because of Norman Bridwell, who most people know from Clifford the Big Red Dog. Oh, man. But he wrote a book called How to Care for Your Monster.
01:40:30
Speaker
And it was pet ownership manual, but the pets were the universal monsters. Oh, that's cool. So was werewolf, Frankenstein's monster, a vampire, and a mummy. That's very cool.
01:40:42
Speaker
And it was one of my favorite, favorite books as a kid. um And so that, yeah, that was my introduction to like, hey, wait a minute, they're taking these things, but they're doing this thing with it.
01:40:54
Speaker
That's amazing. And then I had told my grandpa how much I liked it. And he told me about Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein. Yeah. And that was something else that was like very digestible for me as a kid. Like, okay, I know why Abbott and Costello are funny and look how scared they are, but I'm not scared with them. I'm like laughing at how scared they are Like it's, it's totally different.
01:41:20
Speaker
So, yeah, that was very educational for me. Plus, we had a horror host in Detroit. We had Sir Graves Gastly. Graves Gastly. Oh, yeah. he He'd a man.
01:41:32
Speaker
i was, you know, because later we had Count Scary and he wasn't really as good. yeah You know, it's like, oh he's trying. But, yeah, yeah he's no Sir Graves. but things like Nothing like the originals, right?
01:41:45
Speaker
Indeed. Indeed. So do you read ah Christopher Moore? Oh, yes. Yep. I love Christopher Moore. Seems like Gospel of According to Biff would be right up there. Yeah. Lamb was one of my that was my first Christopher Moore. I read Lamb and I was like, i need more of this.
01:42:02
Speaker
yeah Mine was actually my first was the stupidest angel. OK, sure. Like, OK, Pine Cove, I need to know what what else is happening here. And it turned out a lot was happening there. When I get real goofy, I've been compared to Douglas Adams. I've been compared to Christopher Moore.
01:42:18
Speaker
you know, like when I get when I get real silly, i I get those comparisons sometimes, which is great because I'm like, yes, those are people who who understood genre fiction. And understood how to bring comedy out of genre fiction and and use those those tropes and those classic calls and things to be like, yeah, we can make fun of this.
01:42:36
Speaker
We can still love it. You know, it can be a love letter to a genre, but you can also have fun while you're doing it. Yep. Yep.
01:42:46
Speaker
Very much so. We're actually, um we're kind of nearing the end of our time. So I want to make sure that there was, ah was there anything that we you wanted to talk about
New Projects and Business Ventures
01:42:57
Speaker
we didn't get to? I know when we first raised this, you were talking about a Kickstarter and it took us a while to get this interview ah done. So is that, is your Kickstarter still going on?
01:43:09
Speaker
yeah Well, I'd love to talk about that. Actually, the like the Kickstarter is over, but the thing it funded is just beginning. ah That's coming up. So I was able to start a little micropress last year called Rochambeau Publishing.
01:43:24
Speaker
We put out our first anthology last year ah called Fragile, which was... um it's 20 different stories all started with the same prompt, which was a delivery person is helping move in a house.
01:43:40
Speaker
Everyone else has gone home for the day. They're finishing up their shift, dropping a box. They think they see the box move. And they're like, That's none of my business. And then they think they say, move it again. they're like, okay, well, I, maybe I have to deal with this.
01:43:54
Speaker
So they're going to flip a coin to see whether or not they should open this, this family's box that they're moving in. Cause it's not in their purview, obviously. Uh, but they don't have a coin. They have a 20 sided die.
01:44:05
Speaker
And before thinking, they roll it. And each of those 20 outcomes is a different thing in that box and the aftermath thereof. So you've got all sorts of horror, bizarro, and other genre people tackling what's in the box and what happens next stories.
01:44:21
Speaker
So that was super fun. um And Rochambeau, the idea of Rochambeau for me was just very slowly not coming out of the gate with a million books, just like doing a cool thing.
01:44:32
Speaker
And then next year, maybe we'll do another cool thing. Well, this year's cool thing is called Stories from the Motel Sick. And the Motel Sick is a place that I invented back in my very first published novella called Party Wolves in My Skull.
01:44:49
Speaker
ah That was on Eraserhead Press back in 2011. But there was a place in that book called the Motel Sick, which is one of those theme motels, you know, where all the rooms are different themes. But every possible theme you could possibly think of exists somewhere in the metaphysical, metafictional motel sick.
01:45:07
Speaker
um So we've got 18 different authors ah that have created their own room at the motel sick and created a story about what happens in it. We've got horror, bizarro, noir, sci-fi, ah crime fiction, erotica, everything.
01:45:24
Speaker
All the terrible things that could happen in a weird seedy motel with none of the rules of physics or thermodynamics. um it's so much fun i'm so proud of this crazy anthology we got some great authors we got some big fish we got some little gems like hidden you know your next favorite author kind of people um and it's it's very community oriented like everyone's in it together um everyone was super helpful in trying to get the kickstarter off the ground we ended up 495 percent funded
01:45:57
Speaker
which is bra hang that Yeah. ah so It's nuts. So, I mean, of course that's more work for me, but we're doing all kinds of fun, cool stuff for the Kickstarter. Like we're doing motel six or motel sick key fobs, like the old seventies style diamond looking, you know, acrylic ones.
01:46:14
Speaker
Um, tea towels with the motel sick logo on them. I'm writing a bunch of flash fiction for some of the high tier people. Um, and that should come out. Uh, I believe our projected date is November 26th in just about three months from time of recording.
01:46:31
Speaker
So you'll see more about that. Um, as we get ready to like promote, ah the actual book, but I'm i'm so proud of it. I'm so happy with it. It's bizarre. It feels like it fell in from a reality just like next to ours.
01:46:45
Speaker
It's going be so much fun. Wow. That is really exciting. i'm I'm super stoked. And everyone's been so cool. And again, you know, like I was saying earlier, making friends, being nice, like so many of these, like the big fish in this book, they're they're working for less than they can demand just about anywhere.
01:47:05
Speaker
And it's because I asked them nicely and they were like, for you, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's so cool. It's just like, you know, again, i guess the idea is be the kind of person that you'd want to work with.
01:47:18
Speaker
Yep. Yep. So yeah, I'm super excited. um You'll be able to find it wherever books are sold, you know, come November. um We'll have our little website up, rochambopublishing.com.
01:47:30
Speaker
it's There's not much there yet, but I'm kind of working on it. Cool. Yeah. And then we'll have links for all that in the description, guys. Totally. um You have a link tree, right?
01:47:42
Speaker
Oh, yes. Yeah, you can just link them to my link tree. That'll send them send them down a million rabbit holes. All right, so before we get to the Mad Lib, do you have a question for me? Because I do like to give guests a chance to ask me something if they want to.
01:47:56
Speaker
If you were ah flavor, what flavor would you be? ah
01:48:06
Speaker
wow um I guess I would be cherry lime. Cherry lime. Why is that? Well, because I'm i'm sweet and and fruity, but underneath there's ah there's a tartness there.
01:48:22
Speaker
Ah, there's an acidity hidden beneath the surface. I like it. ah Also, that's just a great flavor combo. Yes, yes. I'm a fan of it in life.
01:48:33
Speaker
Actually, my soap shop, we have ah one of our biggest selling lip balms is cherry lime Ricky. Oh my God, that sounds amazing. Yeah, our lip balm flavors are great because we do um blue strawberry lemonade. We do a chocolate strawberry and a cherry cordial, which is like chocolate my god and almond and cherry. Almond and cherry is such a good combo too. Oh my God.
01:48:58
Speaker
Yeah, and and we do like some of them, people requested them and I didn't know if they were going to be good or not. Like we did one that's vanilla mint. And I wasn't sure that that was a thing that would work. And it totally did. You have a soap shop? I need to do a deep dive on you now. That's exciting.
01:49:16
Speaker
yeah i' You don't do bath bombs, do you? You know what? We don't do bath bombs. That's like one of the things that we don't do. We do soaps. ah We do soap and lip balms are the main aspects of air sopless, but we also have a separate resin shop now.
01:49:33
Speaker
So we do soap dishes and little trinket boxes and stuff. All of our resin projects are useful. Because I don't like when people do this, like, here's a crystal frog that's the size of your coffee table. Like, what does it do?
01:49:47
Speaker
What do I do with it? Even if it really does something. So all of our stuff has a function, whether it's wearable or it's a keychain or a magnet for your fridge. That's cool. You know. Well, may have to check out your soap shop. i'm I'm kind of excited about some of those flavor combinations. Well, we're we're on coffee. Yeah.
01:50:04
Speaker
so It's coffee slash scared. Soapless is where you find us there. So in the meantime, I'm going to need some words from
Closing Remarks and Support
01:50:12
Speaker
you. I need adjectives. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven adjectives. My goodness. Let's have them so many adjectives. Okay.
01:50:21
Speaker
Yes. Seven. All right, here we go. Soapy.
01:50:28
Speaker
Smooth. Polychromatic.
01:50:34
Speaker
who i was about to stay I was about to say, you know, colors are fine if you're you're having trouble, and then you said polygrammatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No trouble there. and ah Filthy.
01:50:46
Speaker
ah Sticky. Round. All right, one more. Squirming. All right, and I need an animal plural.
01:50:58
Speaker
Turtles.
01:51:02
Speaker
A verb ending an ing.
01:51:06
Speaker
Dancing. A person in room, that is always the guest. And a plural noun. Hmm. Okay.
01:51:17
Speaker
Let's see. A person. Say that one again. Plural noun. Oh, a plural. Okay. ah Plural noun. um Let's go with hats.
01:51:29
Speaker
All right. I need another plural noun. Um, let's go with slime balls.
01:51:42
Speaker
All right, I need a noun, and a singular one. Actually, I need three, three nouns. Oh, okay. Um, voodoo doll,
01:51:52
Speaker
diamond, postcard. And two adverbs. Let's do deliciously and quietly.
01:52:06
Speaker
All right. So this is ah the curse of the billy goats. And this is from the sports section of the Mad Lib book. It's a giant book.
01:52:17
Speaker
All right. The Chicago turtles are famous for their bad luck and long dancing streaks. Many people call it a soapy curse.
01:52:29
Speaker
As the story goes, Michael, an immigrant from Transylvania, had two tickets to the 1945 World Series against the Detroit Slime Balls.
01:52:42
Speaker
Having no place to leave his smooth pet goat, Dracula, he brought it to the ballpark. Unfortunately, before the polychromatic game was over, it started to rain cats and hats.
01:52:57
Speaker
The goat, soaked to the voodoo doll, began to smell so filthy that the owner of the sticky baseball team deliciously ordered the goat out of the stadium.
01:53:10
Speaker
There's lot of truth in that. know, right? and said he was putting a round curse on the squirming team to this day that st that team still struggles quietly in post-season play they haven't won a postcard series since nineteen ah eight
01:53:32
Speaker
there's a lot of truth in leberin i know right but Yeah, well, I mean, I've been a fan of the Detroit slime balls for years. but Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, they always have a rough season with the... They're they're sticky. They're very sticky.
01:53:45
Speaker
And and it's it's not it's not productive for baseball. But, you know, what are you going to Well, you know, mean, you'd soak to the voodoo doll. That's right. What are you going to do? What are going to do?
01:53:57
Speaker
Dude, I'm so glad you could be here. This was a great conversation. i very much enjoyed it. Well, thank you so much for having me. This was a blast. Yeah, right on. So we want to remind all our listeners to find us on coffee, ah where we are sometimes hilarious horror because the magazine sponsors the show. So if you want to support us, that is the way.
01:54:18
Speaker
um and you also get the magazine, which, oh my God, it's so good. cause the stories are sometimes hilarious and they're also horror. It's, it's exactly what it sounds like. So we will see everybody week.