Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Author, BBC Writer, and Advocate Amanda Graham
111 Plays11 days ago
This week, we talk horror and comedy, women in television--behind the scenes, and examine why only 12-15% of TV comedy is written by women. Also, neurodivergence in media, why autistic folk don't understand liars, caving, code switching, and what I'd do with a giant grant.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Themes
00:00:02
Speaker
You are listening to The Mentally Oddcast, where we talk with creatives about neurodivergence, trauma, addiction, and all the other things that impact and inform our art. Our goal is to show everyone that no matter what you're going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
00:00:24
Speaker
Music
00:00:34
Speaker
You are listening to the Mentally
Host and Guest Introductions
00:00:36
Speaker
Oddcast. My name is Wednesday, leave Friday, and we are brought to you by Sometimes Hilarious Horror Magazine. Do find us on Ko-Fi, that's K-O-F-I, Sometimes Hilarious Horror.
00:00:49
Speaker
This week, our guest is Amanda Graham, who has written for Apple TV, BBC TV, and has worked for projects from Channel 4, BBC, Zero Gravity Group,
00:01:01
Speaker
and has an upcoming project with, oh my God, Olivia Colman.
Amanda Graham's Career and Influences
00:01:06
Speaker
Amanda hosts the podcast Neuro Disruptors and is a disability consultant for television programming.
00:01:13
Speaker
Her recent book is called Good Stuff to Read When You're About to Lose Your Shit. Welcome, Amanda. It's such a pleasure to be here Wednesday. And let me tell you, your voice is like butter. It's beautiful. i love it.
00:01:27
Speaker
Well, thank you so much. So much. I'm so glad that we could do this. um i think we're going to have a lot of great information for listeners here. um Before we get into the heavy stuff, we actually like to start by asking guests to tell us about the first horror movie that they remember seeing.
Horror as a Metaphor for Society
00:01:45
Speaker
Okay. So let's hear it. I'm really going to date myself when I say this, but I mean, the the jig is up. Everybody knows I'm old anyways. The first horror film I ever saw was Jaws in a drive-in theater in, was it, 1975, 1976? Yeah. Yep. Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. Yeah.
00:02:05
Speaker
five five yeah yeahp jaws terrifying absolutely terrifying What if I told you that there are people who don't believe that Jaws is a horror movie?
00:02:17
Speaker
don't know. Well, okay. Well, they can believe it. It's a horror thing. It doesn't make it right. I mean, it's got a monster. People die. There's blood everywhere. There's arms and legs. You've even got a monster.
00:02:31
Speaker
I'm with you. Yeah, you've got like the government people that go, we shouldn't do anything, and then they regret it at the end. like We see all of those things in a horror film. Yep, very much so. Yeah, I mean, my standard response to that is, a small boy gets eaten alive in front of you. If that's not horror, then perhaps it is time for a re-examination of what horror is.
00:02:53
Speaker
It seems like, from where I'm standing, that horror as a genre is taken more seriously in the UK than it is here, both both in terms of like ah being appreciated, but also being legitimized.
00:03:08
Speaker
You know, horror is kind of considered a trash genre here in the US. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Yeah. I think because horror is usually tied over here to,
00:03:19
Speaker
um ah it's it's always a metaphor for some struggle that's going on in real life, right? Like whether it's class or, um well, especially class. and and and And the older horrors tend to be the things about like crumbling buildings and, um you know,
00:03:37
Speaker
disintegrating relationships between people, people are unable to defend themselves. um And and then they have very different settings to the in the UK than they do the US. And, and so I think I think that's probably why it's, you know, taken i don't know more seriously is the right word. But um ah yeah, it's very difficult to separate the two of them.
00:04:01
Speaker
That's interesting because i'm I'm trying to think of a straight-up slasher movie that's come out of the UK. And I know there's some, you know, there's there's the Australian guy that's like a true story guy, that there's a movie about him.
00:04:16
Speaker
For the most part, though... um we don't see just like, oh, look, it's a bunch of camp counselors being picked off one by one. Those aren't the kind of movies that we see coming out of the UK.
00:04:28
Speaker
And I think you're right. I think it's that ah some countries do see the genre's worth in terms of ah tackling sociopolitical issues. Yeah.
00:04:40
Speaker
um Now, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, just absolutely. I mean, it can be, you know, 28 days. It could be Wicker Man. um So it could be anything like unchecked power. We see like things like, um well, Romper Stomper isn't ah ah it's an Australian film, but it's embraced by the UK audience big time.
00:04:59
Speaker
and and And that's majorly into class issues, racism, um all kinds of stuff. So it's really about those big social and political issues where I think the U.S. is much more about personal safety and not the safety of the community.
00:05:15
Speaker
And um yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things I always noticed about the the difference in the two. Yeah, that that's huge. The personal safety versus the community. Because when we talk about horror here, we often say that um the sci-fi genre is more about where we're going as a society.
00:05:35
Speaker
Yes. Whereas horror is is often used to test our limits as individuals. You know, what would we do under these extreme circumstances? Which is why you get like the people in the woods where there's a, maybe it's a monster, maybe it's just a regular bear.
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, very much like personal
Challenges for Women in TV Industry
00:05:55
Speaker
struggles as opposed to society until you get into crossover stuff like The Thing and Body Snatchers and stuff where people have to work together.
00:06:03
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. um And I guess what's interesting is um when I think about certain American horror films, it's though it's an individual struggle and you're absolutely right, they end up having to work together. They really emphasize how it impacts each individual character.
00:06:20
Speaker
ah So like I think of something like Aliens um and, you know, we see what happens with Ripley, then um And with each person, we see their individual story. And um and so even though they work as a collective together, and i don't know, it's so it's so interesting. And and and obviously, then when we look at the other side and we look at British horror films, I think because it's talking about big social issues, I think it's a way of like making...
00:06:46
Speaker
the the the point much more clear that whatever they're worried about, you know, um viruses, whether they're worried about, know, annihilation or whatever else, it's a way for them to say, we're already there, man. We're already there. And we're just trying to show you what this is going to feel like and what this is going to look like.
00:07:05
Speaker
Whereas, you know, with something like Jason or something like Nightmare on Elm Street or whatever, that's not really something that's going to happen on a grand scale. So it's not like really a warning thing. So it's much more about like,
00:07:17
Speaker
That kind of more taps into your worst nightmares, the things as a child you were always worried about, whereas British ones, it's more to shake people, I think, out of, you know, normalcy bias, essentially.
00:07:30
Speaker
Right, right. I'm actually thinking about the movie The Descent right now because that sort of straddles the line. Yes, yeah. No, no, no, that's a good one. Do go caving. Like that's a thing that happens, but usually there aren't like chuds waiting to eat them.
00:07:44
Speaker
No, we just have to worry about things like Nutty Putty. I'm obsessed with caving stuff like accidents. My son and I went through a very long period where we were watching them on YouTube, like YouTube, caving horrors and diving caving horrors for months.
00:07:58
Speaker
So, wow. god Yeah. I don't know why I'm up. I think it's just to, to, to kind of feel better about the fact that I don't do that. And I don't mean that in a judgy way, everybody's got their own things, you know, that they like doing, but I've just, I mean, I'm curious about entering spaces that I wouldn't allow myself to go into. Yeah.
00:08:18
Speaker
And um yeah, sure. yeah yeah Yeah, that kind of stuff is terrifying because like a caving accident that's kind of like getting hit by a train. Like, yes, that's awful. But you really had to try to put yourself in that situation like that.
00:08:34
Speaker
That didn't just happen to you on the way to work. um um So you are a woman and you work in television, which is not generally thought of as being led by women predominantly. How's that going?
00:08:52
Speaker
um Well, it's funny because obviously this is the worst time, worst time to work in TV ever um in terms of the industry and and where it's going and the uncertainty. and And over here in the UK, it's been collapsing for about 10 years.
00:09:07
Speaker
ah So it's already on its on its last legs. And and then working in in comedy, you know, only... 10, well, they say 12 to 15% of comedy is written by women.
00:09:20
Speaker
um And so it is definitely still an old boys club. um So it's tough, um but you have to go out of your way. i think a lot of different creative jobs to get your stuff made, get yourself out there, get your name done. And like that, you know, that's Steve Martin quote, you have to get, you have to be so good that it's, you're undeniable.
00:09:43
Speaker
Yep. and ah and you know whether you're a woman a man or everyone in between um you have to be good anyways you know unless your daddy works in comedy or whatever you have to be good anyways because the competition is so crazy so it's yeah, you're always going to get people who don't take you seriously. You're always going to get people who like, women aren't funny. You're always going to get all that. But I tend to just avoid people like that.
00:10:09
Speaker
The beautiful thing about the internet, the beautiful thing about digital comedy and doing stuff online is you can pick your audience. You know, you don't need them to yeah pay your bills.
00:10:20
Speaker
And so thank God, because I would um imagine being a woman in the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, trying to write comedy would have been a complete and total nightmare. So I count my blessings where I can.
00:10:31
Speaker
I would think so. I mean, my goodness, I'm trying to think of British comedy related women. And other than French and Saunders, i got nothing.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah. ah well and olivia coleman who has done comedy but certainly she's done lots of other stuff too um so i would think and this is really just a ah guess but if you're working in something like sensitivity reading or being an advocate for vulnerable people in their representation, that seems like an area where women would be taken more seriously because it's a nurturing type job. is that Am I onto to something there?
00:11:13
Speaker
That's interesting. i you know it's um i I have done sensitivity reading before, and I do a lot of disability consulting for the TV industry, and you you know being a disabled person so and and being a disability advocate.
00:11:28
Speaker
And I've been doing kind of inclusion and fighting for inclusion for almost 20 years, like almost as long as I've been in the industry for. it so I'm kind of used to that anyways. What I would say is not necessarily, um there are lots of different types of people who do sensitivity readings, but you're onto something when you talk about um ah empathy driven or or that type because women you see a very high ratio of women working in TV who are doing things like production management production secretaries and you know the the women who kind of keep the production running
00:12:10
Speaker
ah the admin side of things. And I'm not trying to reduce production manager and admin. They're absolute goddesses. No, that's the organized. Yeah, they are the powerhouse of every production.
00:12:22
Speaker
What I'm talking about is how people perceive the role to be. And so you do get a lot more of that. um And then you see you see women more in, it and I'm only speaking in the UK,
00:12:35
Speaker
um You see them in a lot of educational programming. You see them in a lot of children's programming. You see them in a lot of um documentary. Like when I worked in documentary for religion ethics, there was a lot of women there too.
00:12:49
Speaker
So it really just kind of depends. Okay. So it' it sounds like there is a fair amount of of sexism to be contending with. um What about ageism?
00:13:03
Speaker
Are you kidding? The TV industry invented ageism. They invented it and then they perfected it. stay i it's it You are considered geriatric.
00:13:15
Speaker
if you are over the age of 35, especially as a writer, which is crazy because the older you get, the richer your experiences and the more experiences you have to draw from.
00:13:28
Speaker
So um absolutely. I was a late, I was ah like a late ah entry entry into, I think I was probably 30, 30,
00:13:39
Speaker
4.35 I entered the TV industry and um i and I had to do all the stuff, you know, the runner stuff, all the... of you know, digitizing tapes and answering letters from crazy people who wrote into songs of praise and doing, actually, that was, that was one of my favorite things to do, but, um, i'm sure but, uh, uh, it was so, you know, and I kind of did this thing where I did a willful, I am ignoring your ageism and, you know, okay. If, if,
00:14:10
Speaker
this door is closed to me, I'm going to find another door and enter another way. And when i so I started off in documentaries and and I wanted to get into comedy writing and I was on the the fifth floor, which is the factual floor of the BBC and all the cool kids were on the fourth floor.
00:14:28
Speaker
Oh, the fourth floor of BBC comedy where all of my favorite shows were being made. So I would see them all on the yeah the lifts all the time or outside in the smoking shelter, you know, and I was insanely jealous. And it never occurred to me when I would go to the fourth floor, go, please let me, I will do anything on work on these shows. It never occurred to me that they would go, well, some weirdo, 35, 40 woman trying to,
00:14:54
Speaker
be a runner on a show she's so weird like it i think it never i think it never occurred to them wow she must really love comedy to be somebody who'd be in their late like go and i'll do whatever it takes um but you know so i had to go the long way around being older and uh and a woman um and i didn't know at the time but neurodivergent as well but I had to go around the long way. You know, I had to do stand up because they the BBC told me you have to do stand up to show us your series about comedy if if you want to break. But I could tell you that half of the boys who were working on the fourth floor who were 19, 20 years old were not doing stand up. So was like, OK, but I did it. And that is how I got discovered.
00:15:39
Speaker
And I didn't sell. Yeah, I know. it was like really wild. And I didn't sell my first script until I was 41 or 42, which already breaks all the records.
00:15:51
Speaker
And um yeah, it's it's wild. it's It's crazy how how you have to fight for a place. It really is. Now, I want to point out something here just based on my own experience. And I'm American, so our healthcare system is way, way worse. And people go undiagnosed for and years. But but i didn't have the confidence to try to get professional type work until I was almost 30. Okay.
00:16:24
Speaker
okay You know, I mean, I was, i was working like low skill jobs and I have to think that that is not unique to me, that for women in particular, and also neurodivergent women who were not diagnosed in, in childhood,
00:16:39
Speaker
yeah That puts you at such a profound disadvantage in terms of that, in terms of just getting into the industry that you want to be in when you're still young enough to be taken seriously at it with less effort.
00:16:53
Speaker
And as you pointed out, there are young men working in these industries that are just leaping over their prerequisites that other people are expected to to finish before they can be taken seriously.
00:17:05
Speaker
yeah. Yeah, I call it the... Sorry, go ahead, please. Well, i don't know if that is predominantly because of sexism or if it's there's a class issue there.
00:17:17
Speaker
um I don't know in the UK, because you have universal health care, are rich people still getting more and better treatment, earlier diagnoses, things like that? Or is it pretty much the same across the board?
00:17:29
Speaker
no, no, 100%. So i i had to wait... two and a half years for an assessment ah on a waiting list. So we do have free healthcare care here and it's amazing and it's saved my life. It's saved the lives of some of my friends and and whatever else, but we do have a big waiting lists because the Tories have been, and were in power for 14 years and they cut the funding and started privatizing bits and um and so the you know the waiting lists have gone up people have unfortunately died waiting for things um and so it's not perfect but I remember when I was living in America
00:18:10
Speaker
not being able, i you know, I got stung by a scorpion. I couldn't afford the medication. So I had to just ride it out. My friend was a chef and I saw her put a accidentally, obviously a butcher knife by accident through her hand. She couldn't afford the healthcare. So she just had to let it heal. You know, like it ah you know i I would never complain about the waiting lists because at least you get seen here. And um I never, ever take that for granted.
00:18:42
Speaker
I never take that for granted. It's it's the biggest it's the biggest blessing. It really is. Well, and that is one thing that I hear a lot from people that travel is that they've heard rumors about American health care, but being faced with it directly when it's you can be quite jarring.
00:19:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it's, um but yeah, people don't realize because there's only two, I think there's only two industrialized nations that don't have healthcare. care And I think that's the US and South Africa.
00:19:13
Speaker
And so, um and I don't know if this it's that's like that in South Africa anymore. I know that that's the way it used to be. So I think because everybody and in all of the other industrialized countries have it, and it's not ah ever an issue that you shouldn't have it.
00:19:27
Speaker
it is quite jarring to be somewhere where people can lose their everything, their livelihoods, their credit, their, their houses, their everything.
00:19:38
Speaker
um You know, if they're unfortunate enough to get, have a serious injury or get cancer or, or whatever else it's, it's, it's, it's horrible. It's, it's horrible. Oh yeah. i um I had a ah health issue 2022.
00:19:53
Speaker
um COVID knocked my heart off its rhythm and I just thought that I was dying. I didn't realize that I had something that could be fixed because I'm a fat chick. People have been telling me since childhood that my life is going to be short and not happy and whatever.
00:20:09
Speaker
um So my husband and I argued about it for over a day. Long story short, I was there for 17 days and the first bill that I received, not counting the ambulances, because that's a separate company, $149,000 the bill that we Yeah.
00:20:25
Speaker
thousand dollars was was the first bill that we got um do you do that? Talk me through what your brain said to when you saw that. what your brain said to you when you saw that Well, we just laughed. I mean, like we're in an apartment.
00:20:44
Speaker
We don't even own a car. We don't have, you know, if it was $149, that still would have created like, oh no, are we going to work that out? But it was, it was just
Healthcare System Failures
00:20:55
Speaker
ludicrous. Now, in the end, we did not have to pay it because we happened to be poor people who live in a wealthy town.
00:21:05
Speaker
So there was a charity program and in place for people like us. So the hospital worked it out, partly with the insurer, and then partly through this, because I mean, when the doctor in the emergency room found out that I waited two days to come in when I was clearly having a heart episode, he started lecturing me.
00:21:26
Speaker
and I said, we don't have any money. And he said, well, you almost had, he was ah like an African sounding guy. He said, well, you almost had no life.
00:21:38
Speaker
Like, well, I don't know what to tell you, you know? Yeah. I mean, When I lived in a poorer part of Michigan, the hospital, they did, ah they called it a wallet biopsy, where they they look in your wallet. They just help themselves to see whether or not you have an insurance card. And if you don't have one, they either, they they won't admit you.
00:22:00
Speaker
Like, they'll take you in emergency because they have to, but you won't get a room. If you need to stay, if you need more treatment. They'll help you get an appointment that they know you almost certainly won't go to because, again, if you don't have insurance, you can't be seen by these people.
00:22:17
Speaker
Or if your insurance sucks, like we have UHC for insurance, and they are awful. Awful. You know, they don't want to cover the machine I use at night so I don't die from not breathing in my sleep. They don't want to cover that machine.
00:22:30
Speaker
Oh, my God. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah. that's wild Yeah. I mean, I. well and they charge us so much money for the premiums not only that but first reasons that no one can adequately explain to me in order for me to be on my husband's insurance we have to pay an entire family plan There used to be a plan just for two adults, but now it's a family plan.
00:22:54
Speaker
So we're paying to insure children that don't even exist and they still don't want to cover us. I don't fully understand why health insurance exists because it just seems to be a middleman to give people less you know but then i say well why do i even have insurance and then i get my monthly prescriptions and realize that it's you know 120 instead of two thousand dollars because of what they charge for medications yeah yeah it's quite a racket it it's beyond racket hon not it's a horror film actually it's a horror film is what it is
00:23:36
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, so that's what we live with. And, you know, every once in a while we get a Democrat that says universal health care and people fight with everything inside them to make sure that we don't get universal health care.
00:23:51
Speaker
Yeah. Presumably for the donors. And I mean, the reason that that all started here was Richard Nixon. Because until Richard Nixon, it was against the law to make a profit on health care.
00:24:06
Speaker
And he had donors with Kaiser Permanente, were one of his biggest donors. And so he, as a favor to them, said, ah we'll let people make a little bit of a profit on health care.
00:24:18
Speaker
And I think there might have been a cap on it back in the day, but I don't believe that there is a cap on it now. Because, I mean, medical supply places will find out what your insurance deductible is, charge you $10 less than that, and then charge the insurance company about the same. So they're basically double charging for a lot of different kinds of medical equipment.
00:24:41
Speaker
It's just, oh the whole thing is just diabolical. It really is. And it's it's only going to get worse here because, ah you know, the the Orange Menace just took almost half a million people off of SSI.
00:24:58
Speaker
Yeah. and We've been watching it. Just, yeah, I'm genuinely concerned for some of my friends who are in the States. Well, and I actually am starting to wonder how much they they want this, how much they want old people to die. Because Trump's handling of COVID would suggest that he would prefer that the old and sick just be wiped out.
00:25:22
Speaker
And that's what taking away SSI does. That's what shrinking Medicaid does. um You know, all this business with the vaccinations and not having... I mean, Florida, of all places, where old people go to, like...
00:25:37
Speaker
chill for their final days they want to release a bunch of unvaccinated children on them I mean that's your your intentions can't possibly be good if that's what you think you want No, I couldn't agree more. And, you know, it's really funny Wednesday say because the older I get, and and I have learned this lesson the hard way, um that you have to go by people's actions and not what they say. And I'm sorry, you can say all you want in the world, but if your actions are to make things more unsafe for people and ah to make things more dangerous and to make life harder to live, then I'm going to make that presumption. And I don't really care what you say. like
00:26:19
Speaker
you know, to to contradict that, I don't care. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, if you don't want people to think that about you, then don't do those things.
00:26:30
Speaker
That's it. I agree. yeah Well, and that's the thing. i Every so often, one of the the worst of the worst of those alt-right, terrible people dies. you know Rush Limbaugh or ah you know people like that.
00:26:43
Speaker
And then people say, oh, how could you speak ill of the dead? That's so awful. And I've had it with that, don't speak ill of the dead. If you want to be spoken of well after you die, don't be a piece of shit who hurts people for money.
00:26:56
Speaker
Yeah, I literally have that in my book. I'm like, i I strongly, I suspect that people who say you shouldn't speak ill of the dead know that when they die, people are going to speak ill of them. Yeah, yeah.
00:27:09
Speaker
So moving on to something, okay, this isn't really a question, okay but you've met Olivia Colman. You're like working with her on a project. She's she's amazing in real life, right?
00:27:21
Speaker
Okay, um so do you want to know how ah how that happened or just about her? Okay, so um it's really funny. So I um had, okay, so basically my comedy is like really weird and kind of freaky and really dark and and whatever else. And so it's very, like people either love it or hate it.
00:27:38
Speaker
And um I remember right before the lockdown, right before um COVID happened, I had written my, but what we call in the industry, am I allowed to swear?
00:27:50
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Okay. What we're, what we call in the industry, my, your fuck it script, right? That's the, the one where you, the one that's dying to get out of you much like the alien and the chest, you know, the one that's like just dying to get out you. So i wrote it and it's called how Heather survived the apocalypse. And it's about my time in a cult. Cause I was in a, I was in a kind of dispensationalist apocalyptic church when I was young and it was horrific. And we'll be talking about that later on. But, um,
00:28:16
Speaker
ah Anyway, I wrote a comedy about, as you do, comedy. and i And so when the lockdown happened and obviously our industry shut and all the writers were like, well, what do we do?
00:28:28
Speaker
So we all started exchanging each other scripts and reading each other's scripts, like between London and ah New York and LA. And So ah i I sent my ah script to probably about 10 different writers in l L.A. or people you know people who ran production companies. And everybody's like, this is great, but weird. Or people were going, this is amazing, but I have no power in the industry, shut down and whatever else. said So I was like getting all no's.
00:28:54
Speaker
So me being me, um I went, okay, well, I'll just have to do something that nobody else does. I'll i'll figure out, I'm going to find my director first. So instead, and so I, long story short, I found my dream comedy director and and snagged him and I got him.
Scriptwriting Success Story
00:29:10
Speaker
And now he's one of my partners. But anyways, I had decided, i was like, I don't know why, but I just think Olivia Colman needs to read this. And I don't even know how to get this to her.
00:29:20
Speaker
And so then somebody had mentioned she has an indie now, like an independent production company. But when you go on their website, it's it's one page and it says, we do not accept unsolicited. So I was like, okay, so I don't know what to do. And my agent was like, oh, well, we'll just have wait or something else. And i was like, okay.
00:29:37
Speaker
So um then and I helped a woman who I know who's on one of my talent cohorts, and and her name is Charlie, she's lovely, and she um was ah worked in documentaries, but she wanted to give comedy script writing a try. So I said, let me have your script.
00:29:54
Speaker
I will read and give you notes. Anyways, so I was doing that, and she said, what are you writing right now? i mentioned to her everything I just told you And she said, oh, she's like, our friend and is working. Somebody else in our cohort is working for South of the River.
00:30:11
Speaker
Why don't you just get in touch with her? And I was like, you are messing. And she's like, no. ha So I was like, that's weird. So I emailed her and I said, hi, um this is weird, but I have something that I think she would like.
00:30:28
Speaker
do you want to read it? She's like, yeah. She said, shoot it over. So I shoot it over. She goes, now give me like a month. And that's pretty common when i say like a couple of months not to read a script is pretty common over here. She calls me hours later.
00:30:41
Speaker
oh my God. I couldn't help but peek. It's one of the best scripts I've ever read. um And then, my god yeah. And then that was a Friday. they had a meeting about my script over the weekend.
00:30:55
Speaker
And by the Monday they sent me an offer for the option. and um but they were like but i but they were like but we but she wants but olivia wants you to write a part for her so i was like i know i know so i was like okay that's cool um and so i did and and obviously my director partner um was on board so it was crazy because i'm working with my dream comedy director who's directed everything I've ever loved and who loves my script and loves me. And we get on like a house on fire and now Olivia Colm and he's directed Olivia in like three different shows.
00:31:35
Speaker
So, and, and, and so I was like, this is too good. This is too good. This is too much. So I wrote the part for her and I would see her cause her husband ah runs, you know, runs the indie.
00:31:48
Speaker
And so we would have these, Zooms to go over script the script and talk about the the the deck and the pitch and everything. And I would see her in the background and be like, oh my God, it's Olivia Colton. Oh my God, it's Olivia Colton. And they're very excited, but like, be cool, be cool. Don't be a dick, you know, be cool. And and then i got invited to, they had done a show called The Landscapers, which is amazing. I don't know what it would, maybe Sky in America. I'm i'm not sure, but it was so good. Anyways, so we got invited to the premiere.
00:32:19
Speaker
And ah so the woman, my development producer, the one who was in my talent cohort who brought the script to her in the first place, ah she she was like, oh, you get to meet her tonight. and i was like, no way.
00:32:31
Speaker
so I brought my friend, one of my best friends for emotional support and and we went. And so it's very, you can imagine it's a big you know premiere. There's a big red carpet.
00:32:43
Speaker
We were not allowed on the red carpet. The only people who were allowed on the red, because it was a huge event. The only people who were allowed you know on the red carpet were like the people related to the show, obviously. So it was a premiere.
00:32:55
Speaker
So anyways, ah so we go to see the first episode. It's in a big, huge theater. And then um like outside of the theater is a massive, huge, great room. And there's beautiful cocktails and lovely canapes. It's like really cool cocktail stuff. It was very cool. Anyways, she's around a corner.
00:33:15
Speaker
And um i'm I'm like, I was like, go talk to her. For God's sake, go talk to her So was like, I can't, I can't. Wednesday, I was like, I cannot. And it's funny because usually i I don't, I've been in the TV industry forever. You know, I don't usually get starstruck very often.
00:33:30
Speaker
um But anyways, they're like, oh, for God's sake, just go. And so they pushed me And I went and let me tell you something about her. So she was kind of surrounded by people, but around like this little corner. So you couldn't see her in the main bit of the room.
00:33:46
Speaker
Right. And it was quite dark around this kind of screen thing. And she was teeny, teeny.
00:33:55
Speaker
So um she was ah I'm short. I'm five, four. Right. So she must have been well, she had heels on, but like just this tiny frame, tiny, tiny, tiny.
00:34:07
Speaker
She had on a very glamorous. um jumpsuit that had marabou no it was a marabou no it was ostrich feather around the bell sleeves all black v-neck um all ah bell sleeves with huge ostrich feathers around and i can't remember if she had them around her neck she made ah i'll have to see the photos um i'll have to look at the photos but she had on these huge um ah false eyelashes, enormous false eyelashes. Wow. I don't know how she kept her eyes open. Cause I'm the kind of person that like, if I put them on my eyes, just water continually, you know, like even the light. Right.
00:34:49
Speaker
So I was like insanely jealous. And so I was very nervous and i was like, Oh, hi. I was like, um, Hi, I'm Amanda Graham. I'm the one who wrote How Heather Survived the Apocalypse. And she just went like this.
00:35:01
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. She slapped her hands together. She went, oh, my God. I love that script. Thank you so much. And so she gives me a hug. And I was like, this is so weird. And so she's talking to me about my script. And this and and it was weird because I was kind of frozen and I didn't know what to do.
00:35:21
Speaker
And so then instead of me going, but we're not here to talk about that, Olivia Colman. We're here to talk about the landscapers. You did an amazing job. No, I just decided talk about my script for like five minutes very nervously.
00:35:33
Speaker
And so she's just standing She's just standing there so patiently nodding her head, but she could see her wheels going, oh, is this going to be a whole long conversation? And bless her. and and then i went but And then I went, wait a minute, sorry, I've been talking too much about me.
00:35:49
Speaker
um Anyway, congratulations. And then she went, oh, there it is.
00:35:56
Speaker
In the middle of the sentence, it was the most Olivia Colman thing to say. In the middle of my sentence, I burst out laughing. i was like, I apologize. I'm just a little nervous and very overwhelmed by the fact you like my script. Because usually people go, what is this? I don't know what to do with this.
00:36:11
Speaker
So, um yeah. So, no, she was really, it was very funny. And my my friend who came with me and another friend who was there, two just happened to be there the same night. We were all, like, kind of hanging out and talking to her. It was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. And her husband is amazing, too. Like, I love working with him.
00:36:29
Speaker
And he's an insanely talented writer as well. Like, just wonderful writer. So yeah, just a really cool. It must feel so surreal to just meet someone like that and have them want to talk about your work. I mean, that's.
00:36:47
Speaker
I keep waiting for that to happen to me as a writer and it it kind of hasn't yet. and No, I'm so, no, you know what, Wednesday, I'm so glad you said yet because, you know, it took me 10 years.
00:37:00
Speaker
Let's see. more Five, 10. ten ah No, took me about eight years to get to that point. Now we are talking eight full-time years you know, um and except at the beginning, I, I was, ah you know, I had, I could, I had a broken toilet, a broken oven, you know, I was sacrificing to focus on my writing and get better and get better and had thousands of rejection, thousands of rejections.
00:37:31
Speaker
And so, you know, first to have my director partner call me from LA and go, who are you? I've never met you before. What the hell? I love your writing. i was like, Oh my God.
00:37:43
Speaker
And then to have her on top of that, it was the most surreal year, the most surreal year of of my life. I couldn't, you just get so used to being told no, that you just don't know how to handle,
00:38:02
Speaker
being told yes, it's like a, almost like a fight, flight or freeze thing. I still, feel I'm reliving it as I'm talking right now. And it's, it's so odd. I don't think you ever get used to it.
00:38:18
Speaker
Well, the thing is that there has to be a certain vulnerability there because when you put so much of yourself into a piece of writing and then have people that you respect and admire say, i get this, they're pretty much saying they get you.
00:38:37
Speaker
You know, it's like it's it's an instant bond of like when you find something funny and someone else laughs at it, your first impulse is to be like, those are my people. Those are my friends because they're the people that get what I think is funny.
00:38:51
Speaker
Yeah. And the more obscure it is and the more pointed it is the more it it says about, ah you know, about ourselves and our society, the the more relevant it is, the more that means when somebody else gets it.
00:39:07
Speaker
You know, I love that you said that. And I'll tell you why. Because, oh, God, so true, Wednesday. It really is what you just said. Because um I remember when I first started writing, and I'm sure that you and maybe quite a lot of your audience, whether it's writing or something else, can really relate to this, but any creatives, really.
00:39:25
Speaker
We spend all of our time trying to fit in. to, you know, places that already exist. So for me, I was always trying to prove myself to the BBC, you know, like, hire me.
00:39:35
Speaker
um I'm really good at writing comedy. And I was always like trying to bend and twist myself, you know, to show that I was good enough to work for them. And I did that for years. And and what i what I didn't realize until later on, and Brene Brown talks about this, I couldn't put my, I didn't have a word for this, but she said,
00:39:58
Speaker
instead of trying to fit in, we need to find the people who we naturally belong to. You know, the people who get who we are, our weirdness and everything we have to offer. We should never have to sell ourselves to people. And when I made that shift from going, you know what?
00:40:14
Speaker
all right, BBC, you beat me, I give up, I'm done. What I'm gonna do, you know when I decided to find that director and and whatever else was, I'm going to find the people who make the content that I adore.
00:40:26
Speaker
and I'm gonna know him everything about them. and and Because if they make content I adore, the chances are they're gonna like the stuff that I like because we already have all this you know stuff in common. I already get them.
00:40:41
Speaker
so And that has changed everything for me. That has changed everything for me. I don't care about trying to fit in anymore. I don't care. like I have stopped you know begging for meetings. I have stopped begging to be on projects. I have stopped even...
00:41:00
Speaker
answering emails from specific channels because I'm like, you're not my people. You're not my people. And I'm not going to get, you know, fall into that trap of, um, uh, of, of becoming a pretzel again. I'm not doing it.
00:41:13
Speaker
And, and so I love that you said that because you, you know, it already on a, you know, on, on your own level, on your own personal level. it's the biggest It's one of the biggest mind shifts that we can do. And it and not not not even about creativity, but just in our lives, whether it's romantically, friends, or whatever else is.
00:41:31
Speaker
We have got to stop trying to fit in. Because it is a battle we can never... You know, when, because there are people who, well, first of all, people are going to like us or not like us, but there are people who are committed to misunderstanding us and they are committed to misunderstanding the things that we want to say and the things that are important to us. So why on earth are we expecting them to open their doors wide for us? I wouldn't open my doors for them.
00:41:59
Speaker
Well, and something like the BBC is an entity. An entity is like that. They're made of people, but the people aren't beholden to themselves. They're beholden to the entity.
00:42:11
Speaker
Yeah. So, I mean, because novelists certainly go through that as well. I spent a few years... pitching to big houses and they don't even want you to pitch if you don't have an agent.
00:42:23
Speaker
And so you pitch to agents and they say, well, you don't have an offer. Why would I want that? yeah So, you know, and it becomes this whole thing. And I said, well, you know what, what are my favorite books?
00:42:34
Speaker
What are my favorite books that have come out in the last 10 years? Mm hmm. And I looked to see who published them, and that was who I pitched to. And that went much better for me than just looking at houses and saying, oh, wouldn't it be prestigious to be accepted by that house?
00:42:50
Speaker
It was more like, this person cares about what I'm writing. They see the vision in this. you know that's That's who I want to handle it. And it turned out it was a really small house who couldn't do a whole lot for me like in terms of marketing.
00:43:05
Speaker
But The validation, I think, of of having someone who published people that I really respect and admire, i found that validating enough that I felt more motivated to to market my own work and to have confidence when I say, yeah, it's it's a good book. it's It's doing well in the industry. Like, I was in an anthology with Jack Ketchum, who is is no longer with us, and I was always too cowardly to contact him when he was still around.
00:43:36
Speaker
But for me, that was so validating. And I don't necessarily know if it's good that I get validation that way because some people say, oh, well, the work should should validate you or you don't need validation. And yeah, I'm fucked up.
00:43:49
Speaker
I'm mentally and emotionally fucked up and I do need validation because I can't always see things so clearly. So, okay. That makes sense. And there's nothing wrong with a little bit of needing validation where we're, you know, as humans were built to, you know, to focus on community and, um, and, and, and as early humans, we needed validation. We needed acceptance to survive. And so that, that isn't going anywhere. That's still way in the amygdala and, you know, elderly like but that's very hard thing to, to get around.
00:44:26
Speaker
Well, the key seems to be where you get your validation from. Do you want to get it from some entity that may or may not even be what you think it is? Or do you want a person that you respect to respect you back?
00:44:41
Speaker
Mm-hmm. If I readjust my expectations, which I eventually did, and said, well, here are some writers that I admire, I'm going to send them my work and see what they say about it.
00:44:52
Speaker
And i got friendly with a guy named Alistair Cross, who I think is a fantastic writer and ah and a really ace human being. And then he read my work and he liked it. So that it was so much more meaningful than hearing from a big six house and Joe Schmo, whoever, you know.
00:45:10
Speaker
Because if I don't know you, why would I care what you think? You know? Yeah, of course. Yeah. That that makes like total sense. And I love that for you.
00:45:20
Speaker
I'm glad you're getting it. No, I'm always rooting writers on, you know, like we had we got to be there for each other. And I think it's really cool that you're getting, you can you can go for years on ah on a compliment from someone you care about. Like you really can.
00:45:33
Speaker
And that's human. That's okay. Well, and we humans got to stick together now that we're literally like battling the machines. I mean, AI wants all our jobs. Yeah. So let me ask you this.
Neurodivergence in Media Representation
00:45:46
Speaker
Now, you have been a sensitivity reader reader and you have also worked with ah ah just on helping shows be more accurate in terms of depicting neurodivergence.
00:45:59
Speaker
Yes. I definitely want talk about that. And I want to start with ah the question of ah who do you think is doing a good job with that right now?
00:46:09
Speaker
Okay. I'm going to say something controversial. Um, with the except with the exception, the only show that I've ever, now it could be that I have not seen show ah you, your audience might go, but what about this film or show? And i I might not have seen it.
00:46:27
Speaker
So I haven't seen every TV show or film that's ever been made, but I think with the exception of the cleaner, ah which is Greg Davies show, he has ah an autistic character on, which I think is one of the most perfect,
00:46:43
Speaker
beautifully written and
00:46:48
Speaker
representations of a neurodivergent character. I think most all of the neurodivergent characters we see on TV and film, it it sucks. The representation sucks and I hate it.
00:47:02
Speaker
However, what I will say is neurodivergent coded characters are usually much better representations than the autistic doctor or, you know, whatever else. so um So that that's what I would say. If if you, generally speaking,
00:47:24
Speaker
if you have a character or a show that's like, ooh, or a film that's like, ooh, this is a film about an autistic man and, ah you know, the Rain Man or whatever you want to say. Like, i just, that kind of shit drives me crazy.
00:47:37
Speaker
But, neurodivergent coded is things like, but it like new girl and house and Abed and community and everybody on adventure time, and you know, like there are clearly coded characters that are written so accurately and so wonderfully.
00:47:59
Speaker
And so ah so my answer is, for the most part, like atypical stuff like that, forget it, forget it. can't, I can't handle it.
00:48:10
Speaker
But, um but, but I do love my neurodivergent characters that are what I consider exceptionally neurodivergent and ones I relate to. I don't know. What do you think?
00:48:22
Speaker
Um, I think, well, my favorite TV portrayal of an autistic person by a wide margin is Dexter, but they never actually say it. Yeah, see, that's Neurodivergent Coded. That's what I'm talking about.
00:48:36
Speaker
Yeah. Because I think once you, once a show or a movie states what the condition is, it seems like rather than depicting it accurately...
00:48:47
Speaker
They want to depict it in a way that an audience can say, oh I recognize that as that disorder because that's what I've always heard. yeah And we all know that the the everybody knows philosophy is is not as accurate as we would like to think.
00:49:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think like, and the boy, the, the, the quote unquote out autistic characters on TV, they lean into so many stereotypes and it's really difficult. Like, Oh my God. Like ah what was that comedy? I can't remember. I was so mad. Was it called roommates or something like that?
00:49:24
Speaker
And the guy couldn't walk down the sidewalk without freaking out. Now I am not saying that there aren't autistic people who get sensory overwhelm, you know, ah but what I'm saying is if every single representative of an quote unquote autistic character is,
00:49:40
Speaker
We get hit by cars. Yes, I have been hit by a car, but that is not the point. That is not the point. point is yeah The point is that like, ah you know, we all get hit by cars all the time. None of us are capable of having any type of relationship.
00:49:53
Speaker
um You know, we, we, we freak out over everything. I don't know how that does us. good. I don't know how that does us good. And I don't know how that shows the world that when you meet one autistic person, you only meet one autistic person because we are all different. And it just that kind of stuff just drives me crazy.
00:50:15
Speaker
But I love that you said Dexter. I love that you said Dexter. i never thought about that. And obviously he is so yeah, that's brilliant. I never thought of that. Yeah, I love that.
00:50:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think, well, what you're saying actually makes a lot of sense because what I think is one of the biggest problems that humans have in terms of interpersonal relationships is that, and and just interpersonal communication,
00:50:43
Speaker
is that we want to tell other people what their experience is. You know, a woman can go online and say, i was on the bus and this man said this to me and I was really uncomfortable.
00:50:54
Speaker
So I was watching around to make sure I wasn't being followed on my way home. Something very simple, something a lot of people have gone through. and yet total strangers will say, oh, were you rude? Oh, did you flirt? Oh, this and that.
00:51:08
Speaker
And just completely discounting what this person is trying to say. And I think for the neurodivergent, when you say to someone, oh, I have ADHD or I have autism, first of all, they'll regard it as, oh, you're just making an excuse, as if you owe anyone an explanation.
00:51:28
Speaker
um But also this sense of, oh, well, I knew someone else who had this and they didn't act like that, so you must be lying. yeah And we need to have more faith in each other than that.
00:51:41
Speaker
You know, we're we're so bad at just listening and believing we shouldn't be waiting for an Epstein list. Those girls, those women yeah can tell us all that information.
00:51:51
Speaker
and yet how many people are still sure that it's all a big set? Like there are people that still think he didn't do it. yeah And i I can't imagine how he got there.
00:52:03
Speaker
Like, he has said that he harasses and assaults women. He said it. So what are we still doing here? But I don't i don't want to get too far off the the track here.
00:52:16
Speaker
um Your diagnosis is AUD, ADHD with autism is is what that is, which it looks like that's probably the diagnosis I should have gotten in childhood.
00:52:30
Speaker
um When were you first diagnosed? ah So I was diagnosed autistic um three, but no, three weeks, four weeks into lockdown. Can you imagine? So I had to. Wow. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah i was 40.
00:52:47
Speaker
Nine. 48 or 49. And what's funny is, um i it was really funny because, and I think this is a joke for everybody the neurodivergent, well, especially autistics and ADHD, but especially autistics, is that what they do is they, you know, they ask you a million questions and then they talk to like your family and your friends and and and preferably you friend a couple of friends from childhood and whatever else. But because we tend to
00:53:18
Speaker
come from families that are neurodivergent. And also we tend to gravitate toward other neurodivergence in like with long-term friendships. They don't know that they think it's weird. we're going for an assessment. So everybody was like, why do you think you're autistic? That's so weird.
00:53:35
Speaker
But everybody everybody who was in my assessment has all been diagnosed either ADHD, ADHD, or autistic since then. So, but they all were like, why are you doing that? Everything you do is so normal.
00:53:49
Speaker
And i was like, I know it's so odd, but. um Well, and to put that into something maybe a little more accessible when you have an alcoholic, but all of their friends are also alcoholics and no one realizes it. And it's like, do you guys think I might have a problem?
00:54:06
Speaker
No, no, you drink the same as everybody else. You know, if you're an alcoholic, then we're all alcoholics. Absolutely. That's the perfect example. And what was so funny was, is you know, so I did all this.
00:54:19
Speaker
And then so I waited for the phone call. Normally you would go in, but because of lockdown, that they had to call me. And they were like, um so they were like, ah oh, yeah, you're you're absolutely autistic. We're sending you the the report and everything else. so I was like, oh, okay.
00:54:32
Speaker
and And they're like, we knew within like 10 or 15 minutes. And I was like, oh, that's very interesting. um Can I ask why or how? and And they went, oh, well, because when you ah when we started the assessment, you didn't ask us how we were. And I was like, what?
00:54:50
Speaker
And they were like, yeah, you didn't ask us how we were doing or... turn the questions back on us at any time or anything else. And I was like, but when we sat down and you said, okay, we're going to go through like 200 questions. So answer the first thing that comes to mind. And if you need clarification, ask, but that's what we're going to do.
00:55:09
Speaker
We ask the questions and you just answer them in this way. and And they're like, yeah. And I was like, so you didn't tell me to answer anything back. You just said, I just followed the instructions. And they're like, yeah.
00:55:19
Speaker
And I was like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Well, that seems to be it. That seems to be like, if you're autistic, you do things in a way that makes sense. And you're not looking for like invisible reasons to do other weird things that no one asked for.
00:55:37
Speaker
Wednesday, I was like, i was like, wait a minute. So you didn't want me to disagree or to disobey your instructions during an assessment. I was supposed to somehow know that I was supposed to interrupt the assessment to ask how you're doing.
00:55:56
Speaker
Okay. no And they were like, that's, yeah, there' that's how we knew you're autistic. And I was like, this is the, and that was like my welcome to neurodivergence moment.
00:56:07
Speaker
Well, but hold up though, because the thing is, if you are a child who grew up in an abusive home, yeah that's going to have the same result. You don't interrupt people. you don't do something that you were not asked to do. You don't, because like, that's, I think one of the reasons that,
00:56:25
Speaker
that my autism was missed because ADHD and girls, they didn't know how to diagnose in the seventies, but they were understanding things about the autism spectrum. Yeah. But my mom was a well-known crazy pants.
00:56:40
Speaker
So people knew that she was hitting us. So a lot of people just said, Oh, well, yeah, of course she's kind of messed up there. They're hitting her. Um, So I wonder like what the the crossover is there, like how that impacts people getting diagnosed properly.
00:56:57
Speaker
Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, my mom, same thing. And plus we were in the cult church, you know, like I never questioned authority or whatever, but I don't know if when I had the assessment, if that was a subconscious thing or it just didn't make any, you know, if someone's assessing you, like if you go to the hospital and and you've broken your leg, you don't say to the doctor, how's your leg? like It's just not something that you do because of you're being assessed.
00:57:22
Speaker
So that's the whole point of meeting. So it wasn't like I was worried about like, but not following the instructions it just didn't make any logical sense to me so you know to to not follow the instructions because I was getting assessed and that was the whole point of the freaking thing conversation in the first place but I think you're right though I think that Venn diagram is a perfect circle of girls that aren't you know aren't assessed that are ah raised by someone off authoritarian did you ever get the sense that like
00:57:56
Speaker
i Oh my gosh, I'm losing my train of thought because somebody's at my door and I'm not going to answer it because why would I? um Well, I'm not expecting you, I'm not, you know. Amen. Amen. I just don't.
00:58:08
Speaker
I don't. Amen.
00:58:11
Speaker
I love you.
00:58:15
Speaker
um yeah I'm trying to get my train of thought back because I had a relevant question. but We're talking about the authoritarian thing with undiagnosed girls.
00:58:26
Speaker
Right. So I guess girls in particular, I think might be less likely to be diagnosed as, i mean, unless you have, because if you're a girl, like I know girls that were diagnosed with oppositional defiance disorder.
00:58:43
Speaker
And then when you dig deeper into it, it's like, oh, so they weren't putting up with assholes. yeah you know Because boys don't get... that Unless a boy is very violent, chances are they don't get diagnosed with that.
00:58:57
Speaker
But girls that are you know difficult and argumentative, like I'm not entirely sure that's a mental condition. That might be an atmospheric condition where you are responding to being surrounded by people who suck.
00:59:11
Speaker
Oh my God, totally. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. So I wonder if you... have ideas for what ah might be ways that women and girls can better advocate for themselves and and seek out those those kind of diagnoses?
00:59:29
Speaker
Like, how do you know if you need to seek out a diagnosis? I mean, well, obviously, one thing, the first thing that helps is if you do have anybody in your family who's been diagnosed with anything, you know, like whether it's dyslexia, like, you know, the neurodivergent conditions that are less about the sensory things, but they're always co-operative.
00:59:48
Speaker
Co-occurring, aren't they usually? ah But, you know, things like dyslexia tend tend to be diagnosed first or Tourette's or or whatever else. and But I would say so, you know, obviously look at that kind of stuff. But really, i would tell everyone whether, you know, no matter what their gender and is to if you suspect that you're neurodivergent, hang out with as many neurodivergent people as possible.
01:00:16
Speaker
you know, start building those social relationships, whether they're online or in person. um Because first of all, if you are neurodivergent, you need to, you need to be in a safe environment where people understand you and you are not masking 24 seven.
01:00:31
Speaker
That's number one. And number two, um you will, when you are around other neurodivergent people, it's, it becomes much more clear if you have the same issues, if things are, you know,
01:00:42
Speaker
you Because after my my nephew was diagnosed, my brother was diagnosed with dyslexia, my son. and so i just went, oh, my God, I've got all those traits. I have all all of those things. I do all of those things.
01:00:55
Speaker
And, ah you know, when I i yeah we all do, don't we? We on Instagram or whatever, we follow a million neurodivergent meme accounts and you you're 75% of them, right? You're like 75% of them and you're like, yeah, every single time.
01:01:11
Speaker
And I think so. I think what's really important is because the world invalidates us so much all the time. you have to get ah so a sense of safety to get that confidence in the first place to start asking for, ah if if it is accessible to you, you know, um oh a um assessment or ah maybe a support group for people who can't afford assessment, um you know, who are self-diagnosed, but you you need to really put yourself into a safer place
01:01:46
Speaker
environment. I really believe that. And so that that would be the biggest piece of advice i'd give I'd give to them. And you're probably going to have to just say, yeah, no, when people try and deny your experiences and whatever, you're going to have to be, you know, a big girl, put your big girl pants on and say no.
01:02:04
Speaker
and And advocate for yourself. And that sucks. And it's hard. um But it's that or don't get diagnosed. You know? I mean. Yeah. Well, and it's it's so important because ah like we were saying earlier, people who invalidate your experience, those aren't your people.
01:02:24
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that some of us have so much self-doubt that even making that leap and saying, no, no, you're the problem. It's not me. What I'm doing is okay.
01:02:35
Speaker
yeah um is I mean, it's kind of a slippery slope. You don't know if having that attitude means that you're not going to listen to people that you should be listening to. Because if you're autistic, you're already probably overthinking absolutely everything.
01:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. But once you come to that realization, you know you know you know that moment where you realize just how much you've been masking you know your whole life, ah sometimes more than others, and with some people, much a much stronger mask than others. and First of all, you realize how exhausting it is.
01:03:12
Speaker
And the most important realization at that moment is to go, hang on i i i sacrificed so much of myself um and masked and where did it get me it still didn't get me anywhere they still hated me they still excluded me they still fired me you know they still didn't want to play with me or whatever else so i might as well go wait yeah hang on no screw you the problem is you the problem is you and so i'm going to stop torturing myself you know, putting myself into these situations that could be avoided.
01:03:45
Speaker
Y'all are doing enough torturing for me. I'm not going to do that to myself anymore. and So we have got to flip that switch. of going, no, no, no, i'm I'm sorry, I'm not letting you gaslight me any anymore. I'm not letting you gaslight me anymore. Maybe the problem is you.
01:04:00
Speaker
Maybe the problem is you and your exclusionary, can't handle anyone that's slightly different, wants me to read your mind, lie in communication. Maybe the problem is you.
01:04:13
Speaker
We have to do that. We have to kind of be, you know, We really, do we we need to kind of do that. And that's another reason. The neat thing is that the internet is so helpful in that way. Like it can be a cesspool. I won't deny that. and But in terms of finding your community and finding your people and having your groups of of people that are supportive, that get you, that you get them.
01:04:38
Speaker
you know Because being able to help other people is huge. If you're feeling bad about yourself, if you're feeling hopeless, whenever I am suicidal, which is not infrequently, frankly, one of the things that I will do first is I will look at my friends list and say, all right, what's going on with everybody who could use a hand yeah who might need a phone call who might want a small gift.
01:05:03
Speaker
What can I do to make somebody else's day a little bit better? Because that's going to give me a sense of accomplishment. It will let me know that I have value and you know, whatever stupid depression thing has been whispering in my ear all day, doing something positive and helpful and useful tells that little voice to shut the fuck up.
01:05:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. And I love that you said that because, and you know, ah I've had suicidal ideation as well. and And some, some points has been much, much stronger than it, you know, than it, than in other times.
01:05:39
Speaker
um And it always comes down to one of two things for me, disconnection, feeling disconnection from people, the world and whatever else, or exhaustion from trying and not getting solutions, you know, like, and and I can't see my a way out of this problem and I'm so exhausting and exhausted and I cannot go on anymore. And, and, and so, and I just need this exhaustion to end. And so, you know, and you're absolutely right. I think sometimes what it is, is just that, you
01:06:13
Speaker
Even if it's just for a day, even if it's just to get through the day to find something that helps you reconnect with people. And you do get such a ah buzz when you help somebody.
01:06:25
Speaker
You do. You just get such. I do a thing where if I'm if i'm having a really bad day. I will go on threads and I will spend half an hour going through complete strangers, um posts, praising them, bigging them up and whatever else. And it it just makes me feel so much better because I know what it's like to have that post that no one responds to, you know, and I, and, and so we have that and we have to keep doing things like that. And, and so you're right. Yeah, you're right.
01:06:56
Speaker
You're right. Well, and here in America, we have a wide swath of people who work against that actively. They make it their business to make strangers have a worse day.
01:07:09
Speaker
And the fact that there are people that do that lights a fire under my ass to be a better person and to be just more... And I don't always succeed because people piss me off and then I'm just all smug and sarcastic about it. Like I, I don't always meet my own standards for kindness, but I'm working on it.
01:07:30
Speaker
Um, but that the idea that as somebody with autism or, or ADHD, I think there is a certain, well, and, and also, ah you know, abused kids, there, there's a certain kind of, uh,
01:07:47
Speaker
insight that we get from that because we had to grow up earlier and we had to figure things out by ourselves and you know it gives us a kind of a vision that we can more clearly see when somebody is is just being an asshole like it's easier to pick out damaged people find yeah Oh, God, yeah.
01:08:11
Speaker
Well, you know you know what it's like. I always find it really funny when people are like, oh, you know, neurodivergent people struggle with communication. new No, no. I can spot an asshole a mile away.
01:08:23
Speaker
You know, ah what we're very good at is being able to put pick up on people's energy. What we struggle with is the fact that what they say isn't what their energy is. Yep.
01:08:33
Speaker
And, and, and, and, and we struggle with like things like the, that that stupid social hierarchy and that kind of stuff. We struggle with that kind of stuff. We struggle with people lying to us and then expecting us to read their minds, but no, no, no. Energy doesn't lie, baby. Energy does not lie.
01:08:51
Speaker
It doesn't lie. I think we're really good at picking up on that because we're not trying to prove anything to anyone. We don't care about the hierarchy in the same way. We're not bound by those rules. So with that in mind, I would like to know how a ah the, ah how are you saying the AUDHD or do we say? RDHD, yeah.
01:09:12
Speaker
RDHD, okay. So how has that impacted your professional life, both before and after diagnosis? Because I'm sure there's a difference.
Personal Experiences with Neurodivergence
01:09:20
Speaker
I love this question. um I am absolutely um ah complete contradiction.
01:09:25
Speaker
and I had 50,000 jobs in my life, um ah but was was able to deep dive ah in into things like research. So like, for example, before I before i was, ah you know when I was at uni, I was a debater and I was a ah policy debater. So it was, which was heaven for being ADHD because, you know,
01:09:51
Speaker
And the autistic side was really happy that because it was deep, deep, deep research and focus deep of your whole life was devoted to it 24 seven. And then the debate itself, you would speak 150 to 200 words a minute so you could talk as fast as you wanted at the same time.
01:10:10
Speaker
and And so it was absolute ADHD heaven. and and so And that was the only time. There's only been a couple times where I was able to do both things at the same time. Usually i have phases.
01:10:20
Speaker
I have this theory that ADHD people are seventy thirty So at any given time, we're 70% one and 30% the other. And that flips back and forth all the time. Oh, wow. So I have so i have some so i have all the variety of like millions of types of jobs. i used to be a ah ah used to be a mashmaker in a dating company.
01:10:43
Speaker
i used to be I worked in a million retail jobs. I was a waitress. I was a bartender. i was um I worked in lots of different temping jobs at different offices, different types of businesses.
01:10:55
Speaker
But then I would do stuff like when I worked in TV, I worked in documentaries, which was all about super, super deep dives, you know, because you would have to learn to explain complex things like neuro, Neolithic sensory archaeology to an audience that didn't know what any of those words meant.
01:11:14
Speaker
So um it was it was really interesting. And it is i mean I always need that variety and I have to work on lots of different things. And I really struggle to focus on things that I don't like.
01:11:29
Speaker
Right. yeah But at the same time, but, but, and, and that is really, and that will never change. I've accepted that about me and I've accepted the spoons thing. i honor the spoons thing, but, um but ah there, but there have been incredibly huge advantages to being ADHD in my field.
01:11:52
Speaker
And that is that um I am like my writing is very vivid because I write when I write scripts, it's all the sensory experience of my characters.
01:12:04
Speaker
And because I observe how humans act, like i always call myself a robot because I observe how those humans act. I'm really good at understanding people, how they occupy a space and how they react, what's said, what is unsaid.
01:12:23
Speaker
And that is all the types of stuff you need in in really good script writing. And because um I'm able to construct things, jokes, deconstruct them. And I'm also a hell of a script editor because of my pattern spotting.
01:12:36
Speaker
So, um so what I've done and what I've learned over the past couple of years is okay. Yep. I'm always going to have problems with working in an office environment. you know, with big loud lights and things like that. And I'm going to struggle ah with, with office politics, which are very strong in the TV and film industry, you know, like unquestioned power as if, fuck all that shit.
01:13:01
Speaker
I'm not doing any of that, but I, so what I have to do is what I, you know, was, I had to become a freelancer and do my own work and advocate for myself and figure out ways to get my work out there.
01:13:14
Speaker
And um and so I did that. And then the other thing I do, which is the public speaking, um I do a lot of that because of my stand up. So i'm I'm cool with public speaking. But what I'm very famous for are my how to network sessions, my networking hack sessions, and I fly all over the world doing them.
01:13:30
Speaker
And I did them because I was so shit at networking. that i almost destroyed my career. And so what I had to do was reverse engineer all my mistakes, autism.
01:13:41
Speaker
um i So I reverse engineered everything, broke it down and then constructed system that everybody uses, whether they're neurotypical or whether they're neurodivergent. And that is, and I succeeded that only because that was a disadvantage, you know, that I had at,
01:14:00
Speaker
with ADHD. So I think what's really important for people who are neurodivergent to understand is, um, that you have to lean into but what your biggest challenges and weaknesses are and that, and take that because there is a market for people who are experiencing the same thing and then give that to them.
01:14:21
Speaker
Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. I love that so much. Yeah. Yeah. I'm all about like, you know, then but again, this is the fitting in versus the the the belonging thing. You know, it's we can bang down the doors and we can beg and p plead to be invited to the table or we can build our own damn table.
01:14:43
Speaker
So. That makes so much sense. I wonder how does does that get applied to personal relationships as well? Um, I, oh the older I get, the fewer relationships I have with neurotypicals. Uh, so yeah, unless we've got, hear that unless we've got something, only it's, it's nothing against neurotypicals, bless them. They can't help the way they're born. um but I, no, I love them. It's just that it's exhausting having to explain myself all the time and,
01:15:18
Speaker
you know, and, and, and all that. And I, and I just, I have so much more in common with neurodivergent people. I love films and, and dark horror and, and, and comedy and all these these types of things that we all tend to love.
01:15:31
Speaker
And we all tend to joke about the same things. And we all have that very, well, not all of us, but we, a lot of us have that very fierce sense of justice. And, um you know, all of the things that are important to me are things that are important to my friends and um i I don't have the spoons for, ah you know, superficial,
01:15:54
Speaker
and small talk type of relationships. um I'd much rather have 10 friends who I you drill down deeply and have these very rich relationships where i can talk about lots of interesting things, you know?
01:16:12
Speaker
Yeah, I find that hanging out with with neurotypical people, in some ways, it reminds me of having a customer service job. I love that Wednesday.
01:16:23
Speaker
I feel bad if any of your listeners are neurotypicals. They get it. They get it Like, I do have a couple of friends that are neurotypical. My very first episode of my show, I invited a neurotypical guy so that he basically could do what I normally do, which is bring out people's stories.
01:16:42
Speaker
Yeah. So we can we can showcase individuals. So he... He kind of showcased me so I didn't have to showcase myself because I'm bad at that. But yeah, it's because it's this thing where you can't really say what's on your mind because if you are your me as me, your most authentic self, um you have to keep stopping to answer their questions yeah or to explain how this thing is connected to this thing when it makes perfect sense to you. And I often find it very frustrating to not feel understood.
01:17:15
Speaker
And I'm going to, like you were saying, I'm going have a much better chance of being heard and seen and understood by people whose brains work more similarly to my own.
01:17:27
Speaker
Yeah. Do you ever get frustrated? Let me ask you something, Wednesday, because it's one of the things that I just think is the most frustrating thing. Do you already know where they're going in their conversation? Like you're like, yeah, you're going to talk about this next, this and this. Would you please talk faster? Talk faster. Yeah. Talk faster.
01:17:45
Speaker
And I tend to interrupt people, which I guess people don't like. That's that's kind of frowned upon in modern society. But yeah, I already know the next five things you're going to say. You don't really have to say them because what you're going to say. And then they feel like I'm calling them insipid and and banal. And it's like, well, I wasn't going to say that.
01:18:02
Speaker
But.
01:18:05
Speaker
yeah Because i think I think impatience sometimes comes off as as annoyance or smugness. And I recognize that it's me not having the patience to sit through the things that I can already guess that you're about to say neurotypical person.
01:18:21
Speaker
But it it comes off as rude. And I don't, just for authenticity's sake, I don't want people to think that I don't care what they're saying. Because I do. Like that I don't value their opinion. Because if I don't value your opinion, I'm probably not going to be talking to you unless someone's making me.
01:18:40
Speaker
Yeah. Do you that's that is hilarious. I absolutely relate to this 100%. But when I'm talking, see, I don't mind the interrupting when I'm talking to neuro divergent people, I always see the interrupting thing as you're finding that the the the subject stimulating and you want to make sure that you get this thought out because you're goingnna forget it Because you're going to be 20 thoughts ahead in five minutes, you know, in 50 seconds anyways.
01:19:06
Speaker
And also I love the fact, and this is what I love about neurodivergence is whenever I talk about something that's upsetting me, the first thing they do is share a story about their own similar thing. And I always think, thank Christ, they get it.
01:19:19
Speaker
And ah apparently neurotypicals think we're trying to like capitalize on the conversation when we do that. But I want to know that when you're listening, you at least understand, know, in an empathetic way, you know, what I'm going through that makes what you say so much better than just Oh, yeah, yeah, that must be hard. You know, no tell me you understand, show me that you understand that. Well, that's how we bond.
01:19:43
Speaker
So yeah, and you only get that from neurodivergent people. Right, because the neurotypical response to that is often an accusation of like one-upmanship.
Traumatic Experiences and Institutional Blame
01:19:53
Speaker
yeah or it it to me, it comes across as this very like, i am trying to tell my story. Do not interrupt me with your life.
01:20:02
Speaker
Like, dude, I get it. You're having a bad day and I want to be here for you. yeah I want to hear you out about all these things. I'm just saying, like, I get it. And this is why I get it. So I'm not just empathizing you with you like, oh, I'm so sorry that happened. Moving on.
01:20:19
Speaker
Because I do get it. And if like what I'm like, like you were saying, like if I'm seeking out someone to talk about this issue, I want it to be someone who gets it.
01:20:30
Speaker
So you're telling me why and how you get it, ah like if if that's what what you've got for me, give it to me. I want it. I want to know that you get it. And I want to know why and how.
01:20:42
Speaker
Absolutely. And the reason we do that is because we've been so traumatized, especially our childhood with other people not getting it. And so we understand the value of feeling like we're understood. And that's why our brain goes there first when somebody talks about a problem.
01:21:01
Speaker
Absolutely. So um you actually, this is a question we only ask with consent and you did consent yeah to tell us about a time when you felt in legitimate fear for your life. Okay. What would you like to say about that?
01:21:15
Speaker
Right. Okay. I've got many, but um the one that I i talk about, and I can't give all the details because some of some of it is not my story. Okay. To tell.
01:21:26
Speaker
But um when I was in the cult church, and the pastor who was a complete psychopath, ah ended up sexually abusing at least six women that we know of. i was he was grooming me as well, but I was 13 or 14 at the time.
01:21:44
Speaker
um And ah my mother told the deacon board, ah they didn't believe her. Yes, they did.
01:21:55
Speaker
Well, you know, that that that was the that was the official line. They didn't believe her. So they went right to the pastor and told him. And ah he... left he wrote a letter saying he was going to kill us in left it in the mailbox and she so she took the letter and took it to the deacon board said now do you believe me and uh so then what happened was the now i obviously i wasn't there for the conversation between the deacons and the pastor but all i know is that that night we went to our friend's house
01:22:31
Speaker
And, uh, so they, we, we didn't know that like the kids. So there was my mother and her two friends, I won't say their last names, but like the, the, you know, the the husband and the wife, and they knew what was going on, but all of us kids didn't know what was going on.
01:22:46
Speaker
And, uh, so they lived in a semi-detached house. Um, and they were very poor. We were all very poor, but they were very poor. And, um, and and this will become important in a second.
01:22:57
Speaker
So we were upstairs and we were being very naughty, the kids. We were actually playing bingo, which was um ah banned from the church, but they had a ah little- Because it's gambling, Literally bingo, yeah. Literally just little kids bingo.
01:23:12
Speaker
And they had it hidden in their attic. So they got it out and we were playing it really quietly. And then we heard this banging on the downstairs door. And door And um this was cold. It was January or February in upstate New York. So cold.
01:23:29
Speaker
And um and it was it was the pastor and he was screaming for my mom. And the husband was like, um go away. She's not here. And he's like, I can see your car, blah, blah. blah And he had a gun.
01:23:41
Speaker
And um the and the husband was like, this went back and forth. And he was like, we're going to call the police. um And he and the pastor was just screaming, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to get get in one way or the other, all that kind of stuff. Now, don't bear in mind, we're all upstairs and we have no idea why all this fighting is going on.
01:24:01
Speaker
So anyways, somehow the mom gets comes upstairs into the room and now we're there with the bingo. So, you know, we're frozen and having no clue what's going on. And she doesn't even notice the bingo. She doesn't even notice it.
01:24:16
Speaker
And she goes, okay. And she goes over to the wall because they were so poor, they couldn't afford a phone. So she had to kind of, rap on the wall, but be quiet enough where the pastor couldn't hear us from the outside, um but be loud enough where the woman next door could hear us.
01:24:35
Speaker
And so um she started, yeah, so she started um ah knocking on the, I can't remember the lady's name, but she started knocking on the wall and going like, call the police, call the police, call the police right now, call the police. And then ah my friend started joining in as well.
01:24:50
Speaker
I guess they had talked through the wall before. I'm not quite sure, but ah anyways, they ended up calling the police. And so um ah she went back downstairs and, and then the next thing I heard the husband, we were still, you know, on the top level of the house. And then the next thing and I heard the husband going, we call the police now you need to go pastor.
01:25:09
Speaker
And the last thing I remember about that scene was him walking away and he had on this big puffy jacket and he had on ah like a, a toque, you know, like um, ah like a wool hat that he was kind of hanging like a beanie off the back of him.
01:25:25
Speaker
And he was walking away um with the gun and, um and he walked away into the night. And then I remember, I don't know how long it was because we were all just like, what the hell?
01:25:36
Speaker
and But, and I don't even remember what they said to us, but I do remember that we went right then to hide out at a farm for three days wow Yeah. um And then, you know, the church obviously split. And what was crazy was, and this isn't anything to do with like...
01:26:01
Speaker
being scared anymore, but being really confused. they the When the church split, so that must have happened on like a Tuesday night or something. And then that Sunday, the pastor wasn't there, but his whole family was there, including his mother-in-law, like his wife's mother.
01:26:18
Speaker
And um ah they made all those women, they have in churches, these types of churches, what's called an altar call, which is at the end of the service, um they sing a hymn very quietly.
01:26:30
Speaker
And if you feel moved by the spirit or you're convicted or want to get saved or whatever, you go to the front and then somebody will take you into another room and, you know, pray with you or convert you or whatever. and But they also made you um confess your sins in front of the whole church.
01:26:50
Speaker
They made all those women who he had been abusing confess their sins of being Jezebels and whatever else in front of the whole church. Ew. you Oh yeah.
01:27:01
Speaker
And then I remember that the, the pastor's wife's mother, um, who ah started screaming at them. And, and I remember, I'll never forget. She said, I just have so much bitterness toward these women. And all six of the women were standing there with their heads down in front of the whole congregation. And, and they were all like kind of fidgeting with their hands and whatever else. It was just insane. It wasn't until after that,
01:27:29
Speaker
we were told what had actually happened. Um, yeah. And it w it wasn't until, um, much later that I realized I was the next in line because he did this. He had this pattern where he, he would, he had a special a burden in his heart for lost women, you see.
01:27:48
Speaker
And so all of the women who he was ah doing this to were all divorcees or single moms or women who had problems in their you know relationship or whatever else. And so he would do it in counseling. He would have one-on-one counseling.
01:28:03
Speaker
So he had already done it with all these women. And then he said ah that I needed counseling because I was a rebellious jean jacket wearing kid. ah And and so i had two sessions with him ah before my mom stopped it and then everything blew up.
01:28:23
Speaker
So that's that's wow. Yeah. ah yeah I don't even know what to say. that is That's horrifying. Yeah. um i Because I actually, i know someone who had ah a similar situation. I think it was, a I mean, they they didn't consider it a cult. They just called it a church.
01:28:44
Speaker
Oh, no. Yeah, okay. but You need to use the word cult when it's a cult. Yeah, you do. um But the the the pastor that touched her ah she had to apologize in front of the the church as well.
01:28:59
Speaker
And she... I mean, as an autistic person, think I probably would have asked what sin was. Because it's always like... um because it's always like I mean, the idea that ah the victims are in any way responsible is such a blatant, patriarchal, women are responsible for everything men do. Men are never
Comedy, Advocacy, and Writing Inspiration
01:29:26
Speaker
responsible for their own behavior.
01:29:28
Speaker
And yet, men should run everything because women are too emotional. Yeah. But... You know, apparently multiple women tempted this this servant of God into sin.
01:29:40
Speaker
I just ah oh, gosh, I don't want to be angry for the whole rest of the show. I'm sorry that that happened to you. That's I mean, that's such an awful, unfair thing to to make someone have to live with.
01:29:55
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, it's odd because, well, I mean, there there was a lot, you know, I had a lot of stuff in my childhood on on on my mom's not family that was pretty fucked up. But um it was just it was just ah another step in the whole continuum.
01:30:09
Speaker
um But i I try not, it's not that I try not to dwell on it, but I try and see it as, okay, it happened.
01:30:21
Speaker
and And the only thing I can do about this is keep control by defining what that means and what happened and you and choosing the words,
01:30:33
Speaker
and not letting anybody else redefine that for me. And because this happened to me and this happened to me, I'm going to do this and and not necessarily make it right, but i am I am not going to let this experience happen in vain, if that makes sense. i' I'm going to take the knowledge that I got about human nature and not do that.
01:30:58
Speaker
Well, it seems like your career, like the work that you do, ah first of all, comedy is one of our most powerful coping mechanisms. 100%. So working in comedy, yeah you know, that absolutely helps anyone who's been through anything traumatic. I mean, that's, you know, we we all know that.
01:31:18
Speaker
That's Robin Williams taught us that but comedy is is how we deal with with trauma, but also... the way that when you advocate for the the vulnerable, any vulnerable demographic, you empower them and you, you give them more, I mean, to, to whatever degree it is more power to live their life the way that they want to, and to advocate for themselves and to keep them safer.
01:31:50
Speaker
You know, like I'm a big advocate for sex education for kids. Yeah. And MAGA people have all kinds of nasty things to say about that. But the fact of the matter is, the more information you have, the better equipped you are to keep yourself safe and to understand, for example, who is at fault?
01:32:08
Speaker
You know, like, what is your responsibility to avoid and what is completely on someone else? hmm. So, um yeah, I think that it it seems pretty clear to me that you were able to take that experience and and use it to inform a career that helps people in really meaningful and really individualized ways.
01:32:34
Speaker
Oh God, yeah. And it's this it's it's this whole thing that like, you know, when you write, ah you know comedy is ah is, you know, there's a saying that comedy is tragedy plus time. yeah um And, and you know, because all of my stuff is, ah almost all my stuff, not all, I have some silly things as well, but like all my stuff is usually rebels going against ridiculous power systems, like unchecked power systems. And and and the thing is that,
01:33:02
Speaker
You can't write evil if you haven't looked into the face of evil and And if you don't know what it feels like and you don't know what it looks like. And and and so there is that.
01:33:14
Speaker
Am I going to say it was worth it? Probably not. But, you know, at least I'm going to get something out of it. And the other thing is, it gives you an authority, you know, because whenever somebody questions this or, oh, that doesn't happen, that never happened, I'm just like, you're not a serious person.
01:33:29
Speaker
You could just, you're just not a serious person. I'm not even going to engage it. You know what mean? I'm not going engage with that way of thinking. You're not a serious person. just no, yeah no.
01:33:40
Speaker
And you do have like in the kind of un, an authority that, you know, about human nature that people can't question. Yep.
01:33:51
Speaker
Because you've lived it, you've seen it. So no, no, no, thanks. Now I want to talk more about your book. Yeah. So what inspired you to create this book?
01:34:06
Speaker
Uh, well, I, ah you know, the last decade of my life has been the hardest time. ah it's been extraordinary.
01:34:16
Speaker
And as I pivoted kind of over and over again, I, I, I was trying everything, you know, to, to I was trying everything basically to get something to work.
01:34:30
Speaker
Um, and you know, I started off at 42, um,
01:34:35
Speaker
ah divorced, no money, no idea what I was going to do, but I wanted to write. And um I remember I had a kind of dark night of the soul. I didn't know that it was called that but back then, but where i was nothing was working. And I remember it was a December morning. it was freezing.
01:34:53
Speaker
And um I was so upset. I had no money. i couldn't find a job. I couldn't do anything. Nothing was working. i had a terrible, terrible breakup with a betrayal that eight years later, I'm still not ready to talk about.
01:35:08
Speaker
um But yeah, it was bad. and But I, it was really, really bad. And I and i remember just like being in my bed going, I cannot go on. I cannot go on like this any longer.
01:35:21
Speaker
And so I don't even believe in anything. But I was like, I don't know, God, universe, whoever is out there. I just need something to help me just, just one thing to help me.
01:35:34
Speaker
And then the next day, this is just such a stupid story, but the next day I got up and I, and I just put on YouTube because Lord knows I didn't have a job to go to. So, um, I put on YouTube and, um, I don't know why, but I put ah some motivational videos came on, you know, the really cheesy, they show pictures of people running marathons and there's like very important quotations.
01:35:56
Speaker
very serious quotations. And, and then, and and some of the voices you recognize, some of them you don't, but some of them you do. And I recognize Steve Jobs voice and I was, I'm watching and there's like people running and and doing the long jump and stuff. And I hear Steve Jobs voice and he's like,
01:36:11
Speaker
So, you know, there's times in your life where nothing makes any sense. And i' was like, okay, this is weird. And he goes, on ah you know, and and everything you try doesn't work. And I'm like sitting up Wednesday. I'm sitting up on the sofa going, this is exactly what I was talking about yesterday. but And he's like, so I've just got one thing to tell you, one solution, one thing that you must remember. And i was like, oh my God, tell me what it is, Steve Jobs. I need some help.
01:36:33
Speaker
What is this thing that I prayed for? And he goes, it's only when you look back. After it's
Book Writing Journey and Challenges
01:36:39
Speaker
over that you can connect the dots and see why things had to happen the way they did. And i was like, that's it.
01:36:45
Speaker
Dots, dots. That's what's supposed to help me. That's what I prayed for when everything in my life is completely screwed up. I was like, you have got to be kidding. So anyways, I put it aside.
01:36:57
Speaker
i was like, this is the most ridiculous thing. Dots, connecting the dots. That's so stupid. So anyways, but then a couple years later, the dots started to connect. The dots started to connect.
01:37:09
Speaker
um And I was direct, you know, this is much more complex than, oh, rejection is a redirection. No, it was literally like deep, dark failures and deep, dark moments.
01:37:20
Speaker
years later, ah specifically equipped me to do certain things and specifically equipped me to meet certain people and whatever else. And then the dots started to connect. So I was like, oh, I think we've got something here.
01:37:34
Speaker
and And then meanwhile, because, um you know, being autistic, when I have problems, I try and... find the equation to get out of them. And so I was reading loads of self-help books and I loved them. But the problem was that they always assumed that when you're in a crisis, that you can sit down and and and do a workbook for an hour and read 50 pages of a chapter. And that is not how crisis works.
01:38:01
Speaker
So I was like, okay, I want to write a self-help book. because I'm very good at research and with my ADHD, I know a million different things. um But I want it to be to honor spoons. I want it to honor if you only have enough energy for one sentence, you are going to go to that page in the chapter and get one sentence. It's going to get you through the day.
01:38:22
Speaker
Or if you need a story or if you need whatever, that's what I'm going to do. So I decided to write this book and I did different chapters like assholes and money and broken hearts and and all that.
01:38:33
Speaker
And um and ah so I did that, but I needed a kind of arc for the book, like a spine. And that's when the dots came in. and I started off. So with each chapter, you know, I've got like, say, assholes.
01:38:45
Speaker
At the end of each chapter, I've got how the dots from the assholes I met connected to get me to where I needed to go or idiots like all the times I was an idiot. how I connected those dots and then that got me to where I needed to go. So I so it works on two different levels.
01:39:02
Speaker
um But yeah, it's really wild. So but what was really funny was it's funny the right word. I started writing it like three and a half years ago. And then as i um I started, I got an agent for it right away, like right away. And I wasn't even finished with the book. She's like, well, package it.
01:39:21
Speaker
It'll be great. and and And she said, I'm warning you, though, you haven't got enough of an audience. And because you're doing nonfiction, that's going to be a real problem. And lo and behold, all the publishers... the big six well three of the big six um and and then a bunch of little ones were all like this is brilliant who is she tell her to come back when she's got 50 to 80 000 you know followers and i was like oh so you want me to do the work of an eight person social media team so that you can scoop in and take 90 percent of the profit i think not so that was the first thing but the other thing was um
01:39:55
Speaker
what was really horrible was the last year and a half, you know, cause I was refining it and, and really trying to figure out what I wanted to include and what I didn't. And I was still connecting dots myself. So I was still like trying to figure out what the end of the book was.
01:40:10
Speaker
And then all like, i had, I had thought this decade was bad. I thought this decade was bad, but the last year and a half of my life, two like ah Somebody in my immediate family had a second heart attack.
01:40:24
Speaker
somebody in miami This is like my closest family. Somebody in my immediate family had not one but two strokes. My best friend died. My aunt died. or Sorry, my Nana died. ah my the the The sale of my apartment fell through eight times.
01:40:39
Speaker
Um, I let's see what else I mean. there's There's so many things. I don't even know where to begin. It was just like, Oh, my friend Martin died. Um, so I had three deaths. I had, um, I mean really my best friend, like my ride or die, my lifelong best friend. Um, it it was just one thing after another. And it was like, uh, like a final purification of, okay, if I can not lose my shit,
01:41:04
Speaker
if I can not lose my shit despite these extraordinary circumstances, then I think that I am equipped to help other people who are going through the same thing.
01:41:15
Speaker
So I'm just going to be raw and I'm going to tell them the truth and I'm going to teach them about, ah you know, these things that make people do the things that they do. And I'm going to tell stories and I'm going to do a ton of jokes and I'm going to let them know that I am sitting right next to them.
01:41:35
Speaker
while they go through what they're going through and I'm going to help them connect the dots too. and And that's why I wrote, that's the short answer to why I wrote the book. That is brilliant. I love everything about that.
01:41:47
Speaker
Love it. Yeah. Yeah. um So as a book person, ah is there a book, like just one book provided it's available in every language that you wish everyone in the world would read?
01:42:01
Speaker
Oh, that's a good one. Um,
01:42:08
Speaker
I mean, my brain immediately goes to the joke, which is, yeah, read the Bible. It's the best horror book you've you've ever read in your entire life. ah um um That's a really good question. um i I would struggle with that because it's so hard to find a universal experience that has one answer.
01:42:32
Speaker
yep Um, so I don't know. i don't know if I could answer that. I don't know if I could answer that. That's, that's a really tough one. Yeah, it it is. It is. I like to pose it.
01:42:46
Speaker
And, uh, um,
01:42:49
Speaker
You know, it's it's it's funny that because there are there are a handful that I think the world might be improved by reading. I think Daniel Quinn's Ishmael is a good one when we think about just people in society and how we got where we are.
01:43:06
Speaker
I think Harriet Lerner's Dance of Intimacy, which is one of her earlier self-help books, um just about, largely it's about how if a relationship isn't going the way you want to, you can't get other people to change.
01:43:23
Speaker
But if you look at a relationship as a dance, if you change your own steps, then the dance can't continue the way that it was. So it's, you know, it's a metaphor, but it's, a yeah, I like her a lot. um But I also think everybody should read Stephen King's Carrie, which is kind of a ridiculous title and obviously are a ridiculous, like, pick.
01:43:50
Speaker
And I have a bias because I love Stephen King and I love Carrie. And I think one of the most valuable things about Carrie is the multiple point of view narration.
01:44:01
Speaker
Yeah, because it teaches us that a bunch of people can be in the same room or the same family or the same space and see all the same things happen and think about it and experience it totally, totally differently.
01:44:18
Speaker
Yes. Depending on and how we got there, why we're there, what we're trying to accomplish. And so I think it's valuable in that way. I don't imagine that everybody who reads Carrie got out of it what I got out of it.
01:44:29
Speaker
But that was such an inspiring book for me as a writer. It's one of the things I look back on the most when I look at what I'm trying to do with my own work. i love
Dream Projects and Audience Engagement
01:44:40
Speaker
And I just think like in my fiction, point of view is is one of the most important aspects of it because i do a lot of multiple first person point of views for that reason.
01:44:51
Speaker
So that we see two people experience an event and see how they experience it differently and what kind of problems that causes. Yes, I love that.
01:45:03
Speaker
We're nearing the end of our time. So I want to make sure that there was not anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get a chance to cover. No, I think you've been absolutely brilliant. But I did have something I wanted to ask you once.
01:45:17
Speaker
Oh, OK. Please do. um i had I was thinking about like, oh look you know, I wanted to. There's. Okay. Because you are a creative and you are a writer and you are you have so many plates spinning and so many fingers and so many pies. I love this about you.
01:45:36
Speaker
But what I'm curious about is, okay, so we're going to do a, it's a theoretical question. um i If I could give you $30 million, dollars for a project, one project, and I give you full creative control of it, what would you do?
01:46:00
Speaker
Oh, um well, that's actually kind of an easy one because I would start a i would start a program. Oh, no, no, this is a creative project, like a film or a book or a TV thing.
01:46:12
Speaker
It has to be something like that. like your dream film or your dream book or your dream TV show or something has to be something creative like that. Huh?
01:46:24
Speaker
I, uh, I would probably make a ah show that is basically this show, but where I could travel. and and have ah interviews where I'm in the room with these people and do basically what I do here because I love being able to share these perspectives with people.
01:46:44
Speaker
yeah I think that even though our listenership is small, ah people tell me all the time that they've gotten things out of the show that they felt seen that... that I think that what I'm doing here has has value. And I wish that I knew how to get it out to more people. Because the problem I have with my projects is once they get into people's hands, they like what they're seeing.
01:47:07
Speaker
But I'm not, you know, I'm just not reaching people on ah on a wide scale yet. yeah So i think I think, yeah, I think between travel and marketing, I could easily spend $30 million dollars doing this. Who would some of your first guests be? I'm curious.
01:47:23
Speaker
I would want to talk to ah the writer, Billy Martin, formerly known as Poppy Bright. I would want to talk to Andrew Ray, who does the show Binging with Babish. I love that guy.
01:47:38
Speaker
um a lot of comedians, actually, because I think that there would be a lot of value in interviewing comedians because we see comedians a certain way. And I think if we get in there and talk to people, particularly people that do like political comedy,
01:47:52
Speaker
um Jordan Klepper, John Oliver. Now they are not out loud and proud about being neurodivergent, but I'm seeing it in them. So, and that's, that's actually one of the the problems that I have. One of the the struggles with the show is that if I noticed that someone is neurodivergent, but they don't, and, or they don't want to talk about it publicly,
01:48:15
Speaker
it can be very difficult to be like, hey, you're a crazy pants like me. You want to come on the show? Because people are not always open to that. It does take a certain level of not just bravery, but self-awareness and ah and a willingness to put yourself out there in ah in ah Depending on your genre, horror people, we we can attract some ah unstable fans.
01:48:41
Speaker
So we we don't always want to be real upfront about about certain things. You
Creative Word Play and Conclusion
01:48:47
Speaker
know, like, what is that? the um ah who There's a kid that's stalking someone on one of the the primetime cartoons, and I forget, but he says, well, why don't you just write down your class schedule and a list of your fears?
01:49:02
Speaker
like you Not everybody wants that information. That seems very specific. Right? And terrifying. Yeah.
01:49:13
Speaker
Yeah. But but that's that's what I would do. I would i would do this show, but but bigger and and more. I love it. Cool. Well, it is time for the Mad Lib. Do you know Mad Libs? Do you know how this works? Yes, course. Are you kidding? I'm a child of the 70s kid. Bring him. Bring him.
01:49:32
Speaker
Okay. All right. So we're going to start with some plural nouns. I need one, two, three, four, looks like five plural nouns. Let's have them. Okay. um Let's see.
01:49:45
Speaker
Ooh. ah ah ah I'm just looking around my flat. um Okay. Nouns. Beer. Beers.
01:49:56
Speaker
um Hair tongs. Or what do you guys call them? of your Hair straighteners. Okay. Fountain pens.
01:50:08
Speaker
Overalls.
01:50:11
Speaker
And eclipses.
01:50:19
Speaker
And eclipses. All right. I need an adjective.
01:50:29
Speaker
Slope. All right. And a singular noun.
01:50:37
Speaker
Pulpit.
01:50:40
Speaker
Okay. We have a person in room and that is always the guest. I need two, ah three, actually three celebrities. Well, obviously Olivia Colman.
01:50:56
Speaker
We'll do Mark Hamill.
01:51:02
Speaker
Always a winner. And flavor, flave. Flavor, flave. All right. An exclamation.
01:51:16
Speaker
Oh. um Abracadabra. All right. I need one, two, three more adjectives. Okay. Fuzzy.
01:51:28
Speaker
Fuzzy.
01:51:33
Speaker
Stinky.
01:51:36
Speaker
And rough. I need an adverb.
01:51:46
Speaker
Quizzically.
01:51:50
Speaker
And a number. Eleven. A verb ending in ing. Dripping. Dripping.
01:52:01
Speaker
And one more noun.
01:52:05
Speaker
Tile.
01:52:08
Speaker
Okay. So this is called baseball cards. Okay. Yeah, it's a sports section of the Mad Lib book. So we've been doing all sports stories lately. Amazing.
01:52:22
Speaker
I have been collecting baseball beers for years. I started my collection by buying a slow pack of cards at the local pulpit store.
01:52:34
Speaker
I kept the cards I liked and traded the ones I didn't for new hair straighteners. I made my first trade at my friend Amanda's house. I gave them my 2005 Olivia exchange for his Mark Abracadabra, I thought.
01:52:53
Speaker
What a fuzzy trade. Every weekend, I would go to swap fountain pens and trade with the stinky collectors. My collection grew quizzically, and I now have over 11 cards.
01:53:09
Speaker
I put the valuable ones in plastic overalls to keep them in rough condition and preserve their dripping value. My favorite card, however, is my 2002 Flava Flav.
01:53:25
Speaker
My dad says to guard it with my tile. It's going to be worth hundreds of eclipses someday. Yay. Sounds like ChatGPT got drunk.
01:53:39
Speaker
Right? right except it can't really get drunk so it just has to uh you know feed off the information of lots of other people who got drunk it just steals our junk yeah i just did amanda i'm so glad you could be here this was so much fun yeah i've had so much fun it's been uh it's been a brilliant chat wednesday and i really thank you so much for having me on i appreciate it Oh, it is my pleasure.
01:54:05
Speaker
um We want to remind all our listeners to find us on coffee. Coffee, um that's our money-making platform where you can subscribe to the magazine, Sometimes Hilarious Horror.
01:54:16
Speaker
um And they the magazine supports the show, so it's all one big joyful thing. So if you want to support us, we are on coffee. That's ko-fi slash sometimes hilarious horror.
01:54:29
Speaker
um And thanks again to Amanda for being here. We're going to see everybody next week.