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Guest: Author Tamara Thorne
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Tamara Thorne's first novel was published in 1991, and since then she has written many more, including international bestsellers Brimstone, Haunted, Bad Things, Moonfall, and Eternity. A lifelong lover of ghost stories, she is currently working on several collaborations with Alistair Cross, including the next installment in The Ravencrest Saga, as well as The Spiral Sea, the next Old Wives’ Tales novel.
To learn more about Tamara and her books, visit her website.
We talk Bette Davis movies, dads, cowardice, Don jr, writing partners, and polytheism. Also Bezos and journalism, that time the eggs were mad at me, why I'm still writing about Don jr, coping strategies, and Kung Fu panda.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
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You are listening to The Mentally Oddcast, where we talk with creatives about neurodivergence, trauma, addiction, and all the other things that impact and inform our art. Our goal is to show everyone that no matter what you're going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
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Music
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You are listening to the
Introducing Wednesday and the Sponsor
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Mentally Oddcast. My name is Wednesday, leave Friday, and we are brought to you by Sometimes Hilarious Horror Magazine. Find us on coffee.
Tamara Thorne's Literary Journey
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Tamara Thorne's first novel was published in 1991, and since then, she's written many more, including the bestseller,
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including international bestsellers Brimstone, Haunted, Bad Things, Moonfall, and Eternity. A lifelong lover of ghost stories, she is currently working on several collaborations with Alistair Cross.
00:01:09
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Y'all know Alistair, he was just here. And that includes the next installment of the Ravencrest saga, which we did talk about, as well as the Spiral Sea, the next Old Wives Tale novel.
00:01:21
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um And let's see, we'll have links in the description. Hi, Tamara, thank you so much for being here. Hi, Wednesday. Thank you. should Am I saying Tamara or is it Tamara?
00:01:32
Speaker
Oh, no, Tamara rhymes with camera. You said it perfectly, but I knew why you giggled when you started. saying and Everybody says it wrong. ah Yeah, i'm I'm bad at that. It's certainly but you know, it it seems like when I do these intros, I try so hard to be respectful of the guest that I end up like misgendering people accidentally and like misremounting their names.
00:01:55
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ah you can I don't care what gender you anybody thinks I am. It's all good. Thank
Horror Movie Influences and Family Background
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you. So we ah we generally start the show by asking guests to tell us the story of the first horror movie that they remember seeing. And I would love to hear yours.
00:02:13
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Oh, boy, that's a toughie. I think the very first, but I didn't really understand it was horror. I know now it was um The Hands of Orlok.
00:02:24
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Oh, okay. what ah This isn't what you expected to hear. This was the first one. I was about five and I was sitting in my grandmother's house in the dark while she and my mother were in the other side of the house talking, watching the hands of Orlok on TV. And so here was the this, these pianist crawling hands, you know, walking all over the place. I thought that was great.
00:02:45
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But then... Then older, I saw, um,
00:02:53
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hush, hush, sweet Charlotte. Oh, nice. where and I think. Okay. We went to a theater. Daddy dearest. Um, he always was trying to make sure that I was very, uh, not cowardly. You see, he, um,
00:03:12
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when the When the hand comes off, Bruce Stern's hand gets chopped off, and you get that hand waving, you know, the the bloody stump waving, My hands went up over my eyes.
00:03:25
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i was traumatized. I really was. This was people at any time, even though they didn't have that word yet. It was horrible. He yanks my hands off my eyes, whispers that I'm a coward and tries to keep all through the movie, tried to keep pushing my chin up and trying to force me to watch. Fortunately, he couldn't pull my eyelids up.
00:03:44
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Well, not for nothing, but your dad sounds like kind of a dick. He was a dick. He's had a little man syndrome. And I think he was kicked around a lot because he was the last child of the first wife who way back when I was a very late child for my parents, too.
00:04:02
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Um, his mother ran off from West Virginia to go to Broadway. She wanted to be an actress. She was about 23 and already had six kids.
00:04:14
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Well, my father was the last kid of wife number one. They caught her and threw her in an insane asylum. And my brother, my who's old enough to be my father, thank God, because he's my real father figure. He's a nice man.
00:04:28
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Um, he found her shortly before the end of her life, think in the late 1980s, she spent the rest of her life there because she dared run off from this life.
00:04:39
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But my father, I think, bore a lot of the brunt of the anger. And so he was definitely a dick. I didn't like him.
00:04:52
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And so anyway, hush, hush, we Charlotte, which I'd already seen whatever happened to baby Jane and I loved it. Nothing bothered me, but that hand coming off in my face, I still have never seen the head roll down the stairway, but I'm glad it really happens.
00:05:07
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I just can't. And I slept with the lights on for several years after that and the nightmares. So that was my first bad horror movie.
Preference for Ghost Stories
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But Hands of Warlock was, that makes me feel good because I didn't mind severed hands except for that choppy movie. And I still don't watch choppy movies, you know, hostile or any of that. That's icky.
00:05:30
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I like ghosts. Well, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't guess that you were an extreme horror fan. That just does not seem like your style. Oh, not unless it's Sam Raimi and Bruce Campbell. Then it's fine because it's funny and it makes you laugh. And, you know, the parts fly everywhere. and And I like that. I don't like torture.
00:05:50
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I saw Boys from Brazil once. Never again. Oh, that movie nuts. Yeah. I saw that like too young to understand it really. So it seemed very surreal. Like, yeah. Cause I was just like, okay, but if Hitler's bad, then like all these people are bad.
00:06:12
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Cause he's a little kid, but he's bad. Yeah. yeah And I don't even remember that part. I just remember the teeth getting pulled and no, no, no. Oh wait. So you're talking about marathon man.
00:06:27
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Was that Marathon Man? I thought that was Boys from Brazil. Boys from Brazil is the movie where they're trying to clone Hitler. Marathon Man is the Dustin Hoffman one where they torture him with dentistry. Oh, okay. I confused them, but I've seen them both and I don't like them.
00:06:44
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Yeah, Marathon Man is is a tough watch because the thing that they're torturing him for, he doesn't actually know. He does not have the information and they don't believe him. Oh my.
00:06:56
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Yeah, that's rough one. But it turns out that Dustin Hoffman is a complete ass in real life, so we don't have to feel bad about it. was just talking about that earlier. yeah It's okay. I liked him as Little Big Man. Right? Right?
00:07:09
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right Yeah, that was really good. loved that movie when I was a kid. Oh, I love it. And I just, I read the book about a year ago, and it's even better. Oh, wow. I've never read it. it's It's great. And the sequel to it, which is probably called Big Man 2, I don't remember, is also great.
00:07:27
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But the same author wrote like Arthur Rex, which is a modern version of Lamar to Arthur and all kinds of good stuff like that. Neat. Yeah.
ADHD and Creativity
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I like this.
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I really want to get into your diagnosis because when I asked you, ah you said you were ADHD and like it. now I need to know what you like about it. I had to scramble to think of a diagnosis. And I asked Alistair and he explained that to me because I never really thought of it that way.
00:07:59
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I saw special on TV years ago where they said, this is ADHD. Right. So I went to a shrink and said, I have this. And she said, oh, bullshit.
00:08:12
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Well, she didn't say that. um She said, everybody thinks that now. And so i got a different shrink. And he said, oh, my, yes. And um because I had all the symptoms.
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And the thing is, if I weren't ADHD, just a little h, um I don't think I would to be a writer.
00:08:37
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It's creativity. It lets me think sideways. I was always going to write a book about it called Lateral Thinking, but I never got around to it because I like fiction better. and I feel that way about bipolar just disorder, that if I wasn't that particular brand of messed up, I probably wouldn't feel as much need to get it out through fiction.
00:09:00
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That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I agree. So you have an official diagnosis, but it's so yeah self-diagnosis, it sounds like. Oh, no, it's not self. It was official. And my husband is the same, which means we have the massiest house on earth. But we're also, you know, I'm not even in high school. We've been married a million years. And we're also and right now I'm away from home for a week. I'm going home tomorrow and we're missing each other. i count that as a big plus.
00:09:32
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oh no i gotta to go home but they would have us come in and talk to ad ad groups because we're both add and ah i came away knowing that i'm so glad i wasn't married to somebody who's normie because they you feel bad about not being able to keep anything clean ah it's so boring Yeah, it's it's rough. Like my husband hates clutter.
00:10:00
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And our whole place is clutter because it's a dinky little apartment with tons of collectibles. Plus, you know, I'm running a business out of my kitchen. and it's just, you know, everything gets so crowded around here.
00:10:12
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And he, I think he's learned to deal with clutter because the only other alternative would be constantly cleaning up after me. so Oh, he's either got to enjoy cleaning up or live with it. Yep. Yep. And you picked the second one.
00:10:27
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Yeah, that's good. it You always say such nice things about him on Facebook and all that. He's great. like He's a good dude. um And the thing is that I, that i yeah in initially, I would say that I like,
00:10:44
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I wouldn't say that i I exaggerated, but I always made it a point to post good things about him because for the longest time, made terrible choices regarding men. I almost married two alcoholics in a row.
00:10:58
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oh good lord. Because they were different enough that I was like, oh no, he's totally different. like and But yeah, just appalling choices. Well, you know, I mean, I...
00:11:09
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grew up fat with no self-esteem and yeah I was you know I had like came from an abusive home and was told every day that like I didn't deserve anything good until I lost weight and then I would magically deserve wonderful things and you know which is a terrible thing to tell that you tell a kid i really know I wish Kung Fu Panda had been around when I was like a toddler and I could have spent my whole life being like see you can be fat and be a Kung Fu Panda Exactly. Exactly. I was in my 40s before I realized I could, in fact, be a Kung Fu Panda. And here I am.
00:11:44
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Yeah, it's great. but What I was picked up, I was pretty normal. When I reached teen years, i was flat chested and learned but all about foam rubber bras. And that was the only thing used to bother me. Now I think it's wonderful, but um less gravity problems.
00:12:01
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oh no yeah But my father, i was never good enough. um He would jump out of the dark at me and call me a coward if I reacted.
00:12:13
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And so that's what I dealt with rather than body issues, you know, until i became the titless wonder. But ah it was not pleasant.
00:12:24
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in all Living with a bully. I mean, you get you end up with PTSD before you even get to be an adult. Yeah, your your mother was a bully too, right? Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you go through, like, I went through this phase where I said, you know, I shouldn't be so hard on her. She's mentally ill and she doesn't know what she's doing.
00:12:44
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And the thing is that she was a completely different person in front of other people than when it was just us kids. Oh, sure. Even her husband did not see the worst of it.
00:12:56
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So... that I never eventually figured out like, oh wait, you can control yourself just fine. You just don't want to when it's just us. It's not worth it to control yourself forever.
00:13:08
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My mom was the sweetest person on earth and she f you know fed me all the horror I wanted and any book I wanted, there was no no kind of censorship or anything. She just did whatever I wanted. you know Can we go the cemetery and read gravestones?
00:13:22
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Turns out she really liked doing that, but she was great. But she, when she was really old, I asked her if she remembered my father jumping out of the dark at me and her her eyes opened wide. And she said, how do you remember that? You were six months old. And I told him if you ever, if he ever did that again, i would take you and leave.
00:13:42
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And I just said, wow, I must have some memory. And then tell her I was probably eight or 10. And I remembered him doing that multiple times. He just did it whenever he wasn't home, but she had no idea, you know, and she,
00:13:55
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living with him all her life. It's amazing what people get away with. It sure is. Yeah. how old were you when you were diagnosed?
00:14:06
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Um, thirties. Okay.
Personal Life and Relationships
00:14:09
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And when that happened, I mean, were you already, you, I guess you said you were already with your husband at that time. Oh yeah. I've been with him since I was a, so I met him when I was 15.
00:14:19
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I never dated anybody else. Even we just, I asked him to a backwards dance. We, he used to do my chemistry homework for me cause I couldn't do math or any of that stuff.
00:14:29
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And I do his English and he, well, I just lost track. This is ADD in action. a So you asked him to the dance.
00:14:41
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Yeah, I asked him to the dance because I had to ask somebody. And um he asked me to marry him that night. And we just stayed together. wow liked each other. And so we've always been real close friends.
00:14:54
Speaker
And, you know, even and and hard times and all that. But fortunately, now we're sitting here missing each other. ah So it's good. Wow, that is so great.
00:15:06
Speaker
So how did he take your diagnosis? Did he, like, already know? He was fascinated. He went and saw the shrink too, because we knew we were just very much the same person.
00:15:18
Speaker
And, um, yeah. he's, he's much more of a wiggler. He'll drive me crazy. I have to put my hand on his knee to stop his feet from moving, you know, that kind of thing.
00:15:30
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And he's got a lot of H. I have very little age and it was obvious. And the the way we keep our house, the way we do everything and start things and never finish them and all that.
00:15:42
Speaker
And yeah, you know, that's how we ended up talking to other couples as an ADHD couple. So, yeah. Were there situations where you needed accommodations or were you just already writing and doing your own thing
Writing Career and Creative Process
00:15:57
Speaker
without? I'd already sold a book and, um, it was the shrink.
00:16:05
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Um, he said, well, we can try some things. And he had me, um, I'd sold a couple of books at least. And, um, I tried SSRI.
00:16:19
Speaker
I had never been so easygoing in my life. I didn't give a rat's ass if I wrote another book or anything else. I was just cruising.
00:16:30
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And I said, this is no good. I'm not anxious enough. I want to be me. And, um, he gave me, uh, Ritalin. And I would use that because I can't stay awake in the morning.
00:16:42
Speaker
court I can stay awake all night, but not in the morning. And so I used Ritalin for years, but I slowly stopped using anything. And the key is I started turning down any writing projects that didn't interest me because I could never concentrate. I have to be able to turn on that hyper-focus thing that you can do if you're ADD.
00:17:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And then I love what I'm doing and I don't fall asleep at least after 12 noon.
00:17:09
Speaker
And that's how I control it is I only write what I want to write. And that's also how sometimes you see on Facebook, Alistair will post something where he's gone ahead in our manuscript and written dirty things or funny things. Yeah. yeah Well, he does that because he knows how much I love it.
00:17:30
Speaker
And I do all the out loud reading and he likes to listen and I like to read. So we're also made for each other because if I had to listen, I'd be asleep. And so he goes ahead and does that.
00:17:43
Speaker
And that livens things up like you wouldn't believe. And sometimes we keep stuff from it. He did something yesterday that I ended up putting a note off to the side to add this.
00:17:55
Speaker
It was not what he put on Facebook though. It wasn't that interesting. But yeah, that's that's the way it's done, at least by me. Well, that's a common thing with people that have ADD. Also, i think I'm told that like autistics also do this, but this sense of doing your best work when you're super stressed out and there's lots of pressure and...
00:18:21
Speaker
You know, you get that yeah adrenaline that pushes you forward, which and I think when you look at it objectively, like when I do that, it doesn't feel particularly healthy.
00:18:32
Speaker
I don't. But that's something that I think about later at the time. I'm like, oh, yeah, check it. I'm getting everything done. And then later it's like, OK, well, I need to sleep for two days and maybe have some water.
00:18:44
Speaker
yeah and It only works well for me, though, if I'm not stressed about anything else. If there's anything on my mind that's not writing related, I can.
00:18:56
Speaker
like there's a one track mind and it'll go up to the top and the beacon will go off. And I learned to compartmentalize a lot because it'll just stop me. I don't like anxiety.
00:19:08
Speaker
And I did. He did. I also don't fall asleep at night. And way back when he gave me some Xanax and um he said, you know, take a couple of day. Well, I took one during the daytime once, and that was the first time I ever walked through a grocery store and made eye contact with people and didn't walk really fast.
00:19:27
Speaker
It was fascinating. I didn't particularly like it. I like walking fast and and avoiding humans. yeah ah And I used it. I took one once when I went to Knott's Scary Farm because ah and found out that if I wasn't quite as high tension as I normally am, I could so go through dark rides without keeping my eyes squeezed closed.
00:19:50
Speaker
But normally I would just take one at bedtime. And now I don't really even do that. I'd rather do what you do if I do anything at all. and Okay. I mean, i do take CBD at to sleep and unless I'm like in the hospital. In the hospital, they make me take melatonin.
00:20:08
Speaker
Oh yeah. About hospitals and not letting me take CBD or smoke weed. That's nuts. Come on guys. i I didn't think melatonin worked until I took a 60 milligram cap. Then it worked pretty well.
00:20:20
Speaker
Yeah. You need, I need kind of a lot. I need like 10, which they say is too high, but I don't know.
00:20:28
Speaker
Everybody's guessing. And the thing yeah and is, yeah sleep you need it. So if yeah that's what it takes, then, then that's what it takes. Yeah. Six caps of 10 will put me to sleep, but I don't know. A good book will put me to sleep even better.
00:20:43
Speaker
That's what I normally have always used to fall asleep with. I get to read when I go to bed. yes Yeah. See, I got out of that habit because I have an iPad hanging above my bed.
00:20:55
Speaker
Uh-huh. Because we watch movies and stuff, and then like when I wake up, I can work from bed for a few hours, but... That's bad, man. The screens. Shouldn't do screens right before bed. That's what they say. And I know that I did sleep better when I read before bed instead of being on a screen.
00:21:10
Speaker
I read before bed from about five years old on. My mom taught me to read. i mean, she held me in her lap when I was a baby and from the first day. And her finger was moving with the book. So I was a really early reader. But ever since I can remember, I was laying in bed reading books at night. And she wouldn't stop me. I could read as late as I wanted.
00:21:30
Speaker
And um that was great. And so I still do that. That's like my reward for getting through the day. They love it. And i do read on a Kindle, but I got a new one and it has a black background with white letters if I want. and that's Oh, fantastic.
00:21:48
Speaker
Yeah, and it's a cheap Kindle. It's just a fire that was, you know, older at the end of the year. Okay. It's like 50 bucks. But, oh, it's easy to read. so That's why I don't use pages. And I have to use Word no matter what when I'm writing because it lets you do the blue background white text.
00:22:05
Speaker
And it's so much better on my eyes. Yeah, I have to turn everything kind of. dimmed down. My eyes are real light sensitive. They're vampire eyes. That's pretty good.
Managing ADHD and Anxiety
00:22:19
Speaker
Okay, so let me ask you this. Now, obviously, you have had a long and impressive writing career, which might lead people to say that you overcame your ADD. Is that what you would say?
00:22:31
Speaker
I learned how to control it and use it. yeah I made it my bitch. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, and that's, yeah, I mean, that's, that's what I would say that like, even with, with what I go through with bipolar, it's like, I just turned it to my advantage. I, you know, I figured out how to use it and, and how to recognize when things are happening so that I can not make any plans when I'm going to, when I feel myself like dipping into deep depression, or that's when I'll like make a bunch of notes for stuff I'm going to write about when I feel better.
00:23:04
Speaker
But yeah, i mean, asked you what you meant by that. and Now you're telling me that's cool Yeah, it's just the kind of... um Because these things are not cured. They're simply managed. And you just live with it and try to figure out how to do all the stuff you want to do with it.
00:23:21
Speaker
Do you ever enjoy killing people? You know, with someone in mind that you particularly dislike? Interestingly, the first novel is about a mentally ill fat girl who kills her mother.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Is that about you? And I say, how dare you? Yeah, well, it's not really if you truly write about yourself, you're not going to write well.
00:23:47
Speaker
It has to be externalized. Yeah, I mean, my book, my first book, Total Mary Sue, own it, you know, that that's what it is. I wrote it because I had a bunch of stuff I wanted to say about my own life. I wanted to get it off my chest.
00:24:02
Speaker
And frankly, I think that sad teenage girls seem to like it a whole lot, even though I was in my dreams when I wrote it. At least it's not like the bell jar or something.
00:24:15
Speaker
It's not Atlas Shrugged. Oh, good Lord.
00:24:22
Speaker
Ew. Right? Yeah. Actually, I'm bringing it back out. i just I just pulled it from publication because I'm going to spiff it up and give it a new title and re-release it. It hasn't been available in paperback for a while.
00:24:34
Speaker
It was just digital when I was over at Crossroads Press. um Oh, nice. So so yeah, I'm going to be putting it back out. I'll i'll send you one. Oh, I'd love to read that. Because I mostly write short stories now, so I need to send you something long form so you can like and but Yeah, I'm much more a long form person. i it's I need a character.
00:24:55
Speaker
The first time Alistair and I tried to write together, we thought we'd try a short story. It became a novel instantly because we're both character writers. We want to know what the character is thinking. And the character comes in, takes over, and that's that. It's a novel.
00:25:11
Speaker
And I don't think we've ever written anything under 100,000 words, even if we try. So that's the shortest.
Writing Collaborations: Good and Bad
00:25:18
Speaker
Now, I adore Alistair. I love him online. We've had some great long talks about texting and whatnot in addition to him coming on the show. I'm aware, though, that earlier on you had another writing partner and that that did not work particularly well. um I don't know how much of that you're comfortable sharing, but I would love to hear all about it.
00:25:40
Speaker
I'm pretty sure that one has part departed the veil or passed through the whatever you say for being dead. cro My old editor and I are pretty sure.
00:25:51
Speaker
um That was, yeah. And actually Alistair had a very similar experience to me. And that's part of what brought us together was understanding that we were the two that hated drama.
00:26:06
Speaker
And we're always making nice. And so that was a really good thing to do is to bring two nice people together, you know, ah but I,
00:26:17
Speaker
This was back in snail mail. And I met several people back then through a writing group. And the guys were published now, just like me.
00:26:28
Speaker
But she was, I don't even know if I should say her first name. It was never known. Let's not. Okay. We'll call her Susie. um She contacted me. I'd seen her listing and saw she was local and thought, I'm not touching that. This was an old hippie.
00:26:47
Speaker
And, um, she contacted me though. And then we decided we should write a book together. And, um, I've always needed help with getting off my butt and sticking to things, ADHD.
00:27:02
Speaker
And, um, ah she was good at that. I learned to smoke cigarettes in her presence to keep from getting migraines. But fortunately, i have a non-addictive body.
00:27:15
Speaker
I don't addict. It's really weird. um i am jealous. I'm kind of jealous too. if or i I know I would be, but it's, it's like I had one editor who could do that too. We would smoke in public in New York because otherwise it's migrating time from the smell or the smoke.
00:27:38
Speaker
And then neither of us would smoke normally, but I would smoke around her and I got to resenting it. And she was just always on her high horse about it. Blah, blah, blah. This isn't important. Anyway,
00:27:50
Speaker
Now she was bipolar, but she was very proud of it. Meanwhile, I was young and stupid and thought you could cure anything with a joke.
00:28:03
Speaker
Oh my. And I was born with a sunny nature and I still have it, but I have to work at it now. Um, but I did not get it. She would talk about how she grew weed to buy cocaine. And it was the eighties.
00:28:22
Speaker
I, Robert and I tried it once and could not, we didn't know we were ADD yet and we couldn't figure out what it smelled nice, but why would anybody pay so much money for this stuff?
00:28:33
Speaker
All it does is keep you awake. so Anyway, so she's growing weed to, to, buy Coke. And she's telling me all these stories about how her daughters ran away and lived with somebody else because they thought she was an awful mother.
00:28:48
Speaker
And I'm just going, is this real? You know? And meanwhile we're writing and this book got bloated and there was a character that I named Emily and I had made up this character and it was a secondary female to the primary.
00:29:06
Speaker
okay And she didn't need to be there. And that became clearer and clearer as this 200,000 some odd word book came in into being. And so we had an agent. We met an agent at con.
00:29:20
Speaker
He took the book on on the basis of two chapters. and we finish it. The agent is overjoyed. And it's out. It's getting offers.
00:29:34
Speaker
And
00:29:39
Speaker
She, I'm editing, I'm stuttering because I'm editing myself here. She was told, we took an offer, it was like Simon & Schuster.
00:29:52
Speaker
Really nice one. that The bottom hadn't fell out of the market yet, really. and And that was where I met my first editor that I'm still good buddies with.
00:30:03
Speaker
And he's a mucky muck at another agency, publisher now. she yell told me, well, we're not going to give him a book that way because he wanted some edits, which happened to be the exact edits I wanted, which was basically we cut out about six characters and unbloat the book because the story was being told from too many points of view.
00:30:26
Speaker
Okay. And so I'm getting real friendly with this editor she's getting going out of her mind screaming at me that we're not going to do anything meanwhile i don't scream at anybody i'm just i don't do you know confrontation at all and she starts going to the agent and saying, you can't let them and you have to talk to the editor.
00:30:55
Speaker
So the editor's talking and no, you know, youre we're going cut this. We can't publish it. It was, it was close to 250,000 words.
00:31:06
Speaker
We can't publish it at that length. It has to be cut. And the agent can't talk her down. And i at this point, I'm starting to avoid her at all costs.
00:31:18
Speaker
And, So that pretty much became the end of it And that's when the stalking began, because she demanded that we were going to keep the money and take the book back, thus ending the career that was about to start.
00:31:32
Speaker
And there was a two book contract and I was already writing the second book. And well, she stalked me for three years after that. Holy crap.
00:31:43
Speaker
Oh, she was. Wait, so what happened to the book? Was the book published? Oh, yeah. yeah And um it was called Winter Scream.
00:31:54
Speaker
And there was she was it was a two-book contract. And then there was Trickster, which I wrote alone. And Winter Scream was virtually all me because I cut out all her characters, which was what the editor wanted. So I didn't feel too bad about that.
00:32:08
Speaker
And there were characters I'd made up. I always tend to overwrite. And this sounds really obnoxious. But the thing was, we got this massive amount of money.
00:32:20
Speaker
And she was going to keep the book and cut off the nose despite the face and mine too. And so she started parking outside my house all day long. She started calling and hanging up. And that's when I learned that you can develop ESP because I would know if I should have the phone or not. And I got really good at it, but it went on for years. She told everybody in the world that I was a monster and that, uh,
00:32:46
Speaker
tight i didn't even try to take her off the second book because it was too much of a pain in the butt she got half the money for doing nothing i wasn't a monster but she wanted her name changed from the original name that she was using and I was using Chris Curry at the time. Curry's my maiden name.
00:33:05
Speaker
And I'd ask my mom, what would I be if I was a boy? And she said, Chris. So I went by Chris Curry because I didn't want to be known. And it was at the time, the only female writers I was around that were doing horror were these little vamp girls. And I didn't want to be a vamp girl because I wrote horror.
00:33:26
Speaker
And I thought it would be better to be thought of as male if anybody knew. Well, she thought that she would get me by becoming a female and ruining the font on the um book.
00:33:39
Speaker
was kind of a big font, the names. So she asked to be Abigail Abernathy. And the agent actually tried to get the editor to do that.
00:33:50
Speaker
The editor just laughed and said, don't care what the name is, but you're not going to ruin the font. you and she's, her name's not going to be on top. yeah yeah oh my Finally, um, she ended up with the name Lisa Dean and Dean was part of her real name at one time.
00:34:09
Speaker
And, um Lisa, my editor and I chose for a friend, Lisa Cantrell, who was writing horror at the time that I used to hang out with.
00:34:20
Speaker
So she never knew that, but she was named for a friend.
00:34:25
Speaker
And so those two books came and went and I, I killed the reprint, you know, they'll never see again. And I wish I didn't have to, but I did. I've come off sounding like a real twat here, but I don't think so at all.
00:34:40
Speaker
Um, I was pushed. it No, I mean, that that just sounds like such a bad experience because when you're working on any project, not just a book, but there's so much emotion that goes into it, not not to mention all the time, you know, all that effort. Yeah. And you don't feel sabotaged by someone who's supposed to be your partner, you know, yeah building up something together. And that that just seems like an enormous...
00:35:07
Speaker
like a betrayal but one that's based purely on pettiness and and not getting your own way it sounds almost trumpian oh yes and this whole like well my feelings were hurt slightly so i'm gonna ruin you now because yeah that's a proportion yeah that's what it was she thought i was selling out by allowing the book to be printed And to doing the cuts, and they were the same ones I wanted to do. They were logical. They were rational.
00:35:37
Speaker
And it was it was really interesting. get man. and and it's Sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt, but what, what occurs to me is that with the magazine, I find that the people with the least experience in publishing are the ones that get the most upset and offended when you suggest making edits to their work.
00:36:01
Speaker
Oh, it's kind of an unprofessional vibe to think that your work is so perfect that it can't possibly be improved. It's incredibly unprofessional.
00:36:12
Speaker
Uh, I've had throughout my life, I had some really good editors and one of them, um my second favorite editor, one day told me, you know, change your sentences around a little. Don't always start with, the you know, turn them around. And that was some of the best advice I ever got. ah I became very aware of it.
00:36:34
Speaker
And Alistair and I do that, you know, Oh, look, we've got three sentences in a row that I'll start the same way. And we fix one. And, I was well published by the time I got that piece of advice. You have to listen and you can throw it away if you want to or disagree. but a good editor is worth his or her white and gold.
00:36:56
Speaker
Well, I find honestly being on Facebook has made me a better writer because I have met so many writers and you just absorb all of this advice and all the things that they talk about.
00:37:07
Speaker
you know Even if I don't have time to read everybody's books, just hearing them talk about writing makes me think about things that I wouldn't otherwise. Exactly. Yeah. it's It's nice.
00:37:21
Speaker
And when we used to do our podcast, we met everybody I hadn't already known. And it was and a lot of people Alistair got to meet because already knew them. And it was really You guys interviewed Anne Rice, didn't you?
00:37:34
Speaker
Yes, we did with Chris. And um that that was something. Yeah. Oh, by the way, Hamilton, that was really something.
00:37:46
Speaker
She's the only person who ever could embarrass us. but But Anne Rice, she was a wonderful woman. So even though you had that experience early on in your career, you eventually did start collaborating with people again. And I just want to say, first of all, I think that's really brave.
00:38:08
Speaker
Well, it's Not people, just one. Alistair and I had the same basic experience with both concluding that we have now met someone who has taught us what insanity truly is.
00:38:23
Speaker
Same exact kind of emotional screaming things. And like Susie would, the original agent, Called on someone that he had, she had a crush on. She had crushes on everybody.
00:38:37
Speaker
And this, this guy is a very well-known YA author. He got her to meet, meet this guy in a mall, a shopping mall where she couldn't throw a fit, we thought.
00:38:49
Speaker
And talked to her about why the book should be edited. She still threw a fit in front of this guy that she really wanted to screw. Oh, my gosh. that Yeah, it was stuff like that. And Alistair went through something similar with this kind of behavior.
00:39:06
Speaker
And so it never, both of us swore we'd never...
00:39:13
Speaker
collaborate again. And then, but he, he had read my books when he was still a teenager. And, um, he wrote to me through, Facebook a couple times and we missed each other. I didn't even notice him.
00:39:28
Speaker
And then he made a comment on something and I answered it. And then all of a sudden it just went nuts. And I went to visit my son in Texas. He moved out of there.
00:39:39
Speaker
ah ah And we made a phone call and neither of us used the phone. And that was just instant. I don't think there's been a day since that we haven't texted.
00:39:52
Speaker
And that was close to 15 years ago now. That's so great. It was, it was a meant to be thing. I mean, it seems downright magical. Cause like I've never had a successful collaboration with anyone that except my husband.
00:40:07
Speaker
Yeah. Like, can you put into words like how you make it work? We're the same. um We write in Google docs and we still,
00:40:20
Speaker
write in the same file at the same time. Sometimes we watch each other or we come in behind each other and edit, but our styles are so similar.
00:40:31
Speaker
You can tell us apart like when he does his vampires or something, he's a little more hardcore than I am, but ah overall, we use all the same words in the same styles and we just mesh. It's unbelievable. We don't really even understand it.
00:40:48
Speaker
It's you're not making it work. It's working on its own. I mean, not, not to denigrate anyone, but it seems like it seems effortless. It is. It is. And he'll come up and change a word right behind me. I'm,
00:41:03
Speaker
or Or, you know, or I'm reading something back that he's written, you know, because we read each other's solos to, each you know, we stay in our office together when we're working on solos and then we read each other what we've done for the day.
00:41:16
Speaker
I don't know about him, but for me, that keeps the ADD in check because Alistair's going to listen to me. I'd better write and not screw off. Well, yeah, the accountability is going to keep.
00:41:27
Speaker
Yeah. And I know he's going to listen to it, but he'll make suggestions or I'll make suggestions and then the other person's already doing it. And we always know when we're going to text each other, all kinds of weird stuff like that. There's some kind of link that's beyond anything I've ever experienced.
00:41:46
Speaker
It's weird. And it used to be people with don't get a room you two and we just cracked up because we're way too close for that it's a joke uh for close friends talk about sex really close friends talk about poop yeah well we're beyond poop you know so it's like ew don't even say that
00:42:08
Speaker
Now, it's interesting because one of the questions I was going to ask you is if you have advice for people that are looking to form a collaboration that is successful. And from talking about this, it sounds like your advice would probably be to find the right person.
00:42:25
Speaker
that That is the key. But is there anything else? Well, I would say that find someone who's
00:42:37
Speaker
similar to you, but who may also have, you know, like we are both nice guys. We don't argue. We've never argued.
00:42:48
Speaker
We've made play arguments to amuse other people, but we're the same in nature and we have similar sensibilities about what's right and wrong about, you know, the stories we want to tell or, you know, and just the world in general.
00:43:09
Speaker
but it's also nice to have somebody who's like, he's a list maker and he, he keeps us on the straight and narrow. He makes sure, and I'm all, Oh, let's tell a joke.
00:43:20
Speaker
And so we balance each other out. So there's balance. You know, if somebody, he tends to be intense, I tend to be goofy and he won't let me get too goofy and I won't let him get too intense.
00:43:34
Speaker
Yeah. And while we're working, we say the same, you know, we have the same views. We were both character writers, know, and together we get our plots right and everything.
00:43:49
Speaker
And that's about it Find somebody you get along with. So basically the same things that make a marriage work make a successful writing collaboration. Yeah.
00:43:59
Speaker
Being enough alike that you understand each other, but enough different that you make up for, you know, i don't want to use the word shortcomings, but you know, there are shortcomings and and you help each other that way.
00:44:11
Speaker
And yeah, he, he makes me focus. I make him unfocus. He needs to unfocus now and then he's Alistair. yeah He's pretty intense. Yeah, he is.
00:44:23
Speaker
And i don't, I don't put up with that shit. Yeah. And he doesn't put up with mine. And so it's like, you know, He goes, okay, let's get back to work. And okay.
00:44:35
Speaker
And it's great. It works. And we want to tell the same stories and the same things, the sense of humor is the same.
Appreciation of Humor and Pop Culture
00:44:44
Speaker
or Mine's vaster.
00:44:47
Speaker
he probably doesn't understand my love of things like blazing saddles and slapstick, but he understands plenty of the other things that crack me up, but almost everything cracks me up. So.
00:44:59
Speaker
I find as age, I encounter fewer and fewer people with an appreciation for Mel Brooks. And I don't feel particularly good about it because I think people should still be watching Young Frankenstein on a regular basis.
00:45:11
Speaker
Oh, they should. and Blazing Saddles is the biggest anti-racist movie ever made. Yeah. And it should all be there. um My son told me he couldn't let it his son watch the movie yet because he was afraid he'd talk about it at school and get in trouble. Yeah.
00:45:32
Speaker
well maybe we should get together and let him watch it with both of us right but yeah it's it's sad and Brooks is vaudevillian and I've always loved that know he's corny but still you know I mean i'd defy anyone to watch Spaceballs and not laugh I don't see how it would be possible Especially when the little guy comes out of the chest and starts singing Hello, My Baby. Oh, my God.
00:46:03
Speaker
I love ah Robin Hood men in tights too, especially when he's singing to her and Nelson Eddy's voice behind the, behind you and the sword is going up in the air. Yeah. You know, the stuff is corny, but I don't care. Well, and we know now, I mean, there are plenty of people that do humor that on its face seems very juvenile, but as part of an intelligent satirical, I mean, you've got Trey Parker, Matt Stone, oh i love that harrlan you know, people like that.
00:46:33
Speaker
I love them all. Man, I love Beavis and Butte. Oh my god. we um um I got Paramount Plus because I wanted ah to watch the new Matlock because, oh my god, Kathy Bates, please.
00:46:46
Speaker
Oh, haven't seen it yet, yeah. Oh, it's dope! The first season's still going on, and the main guy in it is Jason Ritter, you know, John Ritter's son? Oh, yeah. He is so cute and wonderful. I love that guy. It is it is a really good show.
00:47:00
Speaker
Um... But we got it, and then we saw, hey, they made new Beavis and Buttheads. We should see if they're funny. And oh my god. Well, because half of it is them, you know, still in high school, and then the other half is them 20 years later so bald and everything you can think of oh i love them well and and as you would expect uh butthead is the one who got heavy and beavis is the one who's still like skinny and nervous but they're both drunk all the time but it's oh boy it is it's something because it they turned out exactly the way you would expect them to
00:47:35
Speaker
Yeah, they they haven't grown at all. and And then there's the ah South Park specials on Paramount Plus. Oh, yeah, yeah. oh Oh, but the the boys married themselves some, what what's the one in Amazon? um Not Siri, the other one.
00:47:53
Speaker
Alexa. Alexa out loud. vietnam sound down and they start talking to their alexa wives and then the wives are doing the alexa thing i nearly wet myself watching that oh dear god and kenny turns out to be brilliant and i just love that show but i think i like beavis and butthead even better and old beavis and butthead the most Yeah, well, I mean, I i kind of, when I watch the really old stuff, I remember the time in my life when it first came out, you know, and what I was doing at that time, which was mostly drugs.
00:48:32
Speaker
no I was huge into acid in those days. i loved LSD. I still am a fan of it, but, you know, my lifestyle doesn't really...
00:48:44
Speaker
You know, I don't often have a day where I'm like, all right, well, I've got 15 hours to walk around outside and look at stuff. Oh, no. I knew people who used it, but it scared the tar out of me.
00:48:55
Speaker
And, um, When we were a mother, we found a friend a friend of mine who used it in her hippie days who described it to us because there's a big sequence of acid in there.
00:49:07
Speaker
But we had never, either of us ever tried it and didn't want to. But I had a friend... in the 80s who liked it and she'd come to work and tell me oh and then the house the doors all got too small and i couldn't move around weing with forward i'm thinking and you like this yeah well and it's not always great i remember one time i took acid said and i actually wrote about this and in a stabbing for sadie i i put that story in um i uh took acid
00:49:39
Speaker
Really late. It was like nine or 10 at night, which for something that lasts 14 hours or so, that's very late. And I had to be to work at 4am. So I was by no means sober. I was the morning breakfast manager at McDonald's.
00:49:54
Speaker
So I had to come in and turn everything on and open up the store and get it ready for the employees to show up at like 530 or 6. hu And by the time the other manager showed up at 9 a.m., I was mess.
00:50:07
Speaker
And he asked me what was wrong. And I told him that the eggs were mad at me. um And he sent me home.
00:50:19
Speaker
But he didn't fire you. No, no. yeah Because that that particular manager was the owner's son. And his whole ethos was about not being a hard ass. He wanted to be just the chill, whatever, like, you know, okay, so you're a 23-year-old woman, you're working at McDonald's, of course you're partying and doing drugs all weekend. Just get out of here and go home.
00:50:45
Speaker
He was super cool about it Oh, I'm going to start using that as an excuse. That you're on acid? Yes, this inanimate thing doesn't like me anymore, so I'll be leaving. it He has good excuse as far as I'm concerned.
00:51:01
Speaker
Wow. Oh, that's that's a great story. Right. he like that I know a dude once who took acid and he worked actually at a bakery. He worked the overnight shift at a bakery and he called in the middle of the night.
00:51:14
Speaker
And he was very worried because he wanted to go outside for a cigarette break, but he thought that he controlled the bread supply for the entire world and that if he stopped for a single minute that people would starve.
00:51:26
Speaker
That's very sweet of him. um We had to explain. Yeah, he was a really good guy. He was an Eagle Scout, actually. He's the only Eagle Scout I ever met. And I thought that was so impressive because I don't know what you know about scouting, but they're not fucking around, those Eagle Scouts, man. They're in it. Even though apparently they do acid and smoke cigarettes, there's still a lot that goes into being an Eagle Scout. It's it's an impressive ordeal for sure.
00:51:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's got to be. Can you imagine? It just makes me think of the the Hitler group on Animal House. The Hitler Youth, I mean. and Oh, the Omegas.
00:52:07
Speaker
The Omegas, yeah. I think that's what they... That must have been. That's where Kevin Bacon pledged. Yeah. God. It's so good. and Thank you, sir. May I have another house?
00:52:20
Speaker
Oh, God. Kevin Bacon. I read that. when I was a teenager in national lampoon and that, that part was actually in the story before it became a movie.
00:52:31
Speaker
Yeah, that was good. I don't think I've ever actually read an issue of of national lampoon. I don't think I've ever like encountered one. It's long gone now, but we started buying it when I was a teenager and had it for years. It was the only thing I ever made sure my son never saw.
00:52:50
Speaker
was the only thing that was disruptive to normal thinking. I thought a child shouldn't see
Coping with ADD and Injustice
00:52:56
Speaker
this. You know, he had he was in fifth grade reading readinging The Shining and stuff.
00:53:01
Speaker
That was fine, but you couldn't you couldn't have the National Lampoons. I locked those up. More so than Mad Magazine? Mad Magazine. Because Mad subversive. I didn't think that was subversive at all. My mother never even, you know, I had that from like fourth grade on. Nice.
00:53:16
Speaker
And in fact, that was one of the ways I combated ADD. I just didn't know it yet. Thank God. um Because they would have maybe drugged it out of me.
00:53:27
Speaker
I had such a hard time staying awake in elementary school. I would sit there and I would write dirty poems, which were pretty clean because, you know, I was little kid.
00:53:38
Speaker
But then i would tell myself, I would visualize the latest issue of National Lampoon until I'd be laughing so hard that I would be afraid of getting caught. And that would wake me up because I was terrified of getting caught because I was the little girl who never got in trouble.
00:53:54
Speaker
Oh, wow. And that's how I stayed. That was a way I combated ADD. I just didn't know it at the time. I was always half asleep because it was so boring at school. So that mad magazine helped make me what I am today.
00:54:08
Speaker
That's really interesting. Cause I'm actually thinking back to when they first wanted to test me for ADD. Cause we had a test in Michigan, this test that you would have to take to get your funding. And it was called the MEEP.
00:54:21
Speaker
Um, Michigan Educational Assessment Program, I think. But they made us take practice tests over and over again. And I was so bored. So I just started like filling in all the little bubbles randomly and making designs and stuff. And they're like, hey, we think you have ADD. And my mom- want me to get tested. She never wanted me to get tested for anything because anytime anybody looked at us, they were like, okay, wait, who's beating you?
00:54:48
Speaker
So yeah God. um So yeah, so I never got tested. i found out when I was adult, but they're like, oh, you know, you're autistic and you have ADD. And ah I knew about the bipolar disorder because I was, you know, suicidal from a pretty young age.
00:55:03
Speaker
And so people did look into that, like at school, I got to go to the school counselors and whatnot. But yeah, my mom used to try to put a stop to any of that. um But then, you know, I don't want to go into that. You can read a stabbing for Sadie. You'll find out all about it.
00:55:20
Speaker
Okay. what oh What did you... Autistic. I didn't know much about it until I watched Boston Legal. And I was really taken with the one lawyer who had to like hold a pencil in his hand and then he was okay. And that was ah Asperger's, which caught my attention because I liked Asperger.
00:55:39
Speaker
um That's actually a term that people don't use anymore. Because um Asperger was a very specific guy and he was, and I don't know a tremendous amount about this, but he was, you know, into Nazi shit. He was about like eradicating certain kinds of people and just not, you know, it his whole deal was very problematic. So and my understanding is that the the term Asperger's is not used in the autism community anymore. They mostly talk about the spectrum
00:56:11
Speaker
and how it's like really different and it presents differently for different people. Well, that aspect of the spectrum was the only thing that I ever knew anything about. Now, what are you talking about when you say autistic? How does it affect you?
00:56:26
Speaker
Well, for me, it's things like, like I have what they call justice sensitive autism, which means when shit is unfair, I'm like Annie Wilkes in the monologue about the chapter plays. Like, no, oh this is wrong.
00:56:42
Speaker
So, you know, i'm I'm having a pretty hard time because it it causes intrusive thoughts, just general, like,
00:56:53
Speaker
This low key, it's anger, but it's also like fear because it's like something's wrong. Something's wrong. Nobody's doing anything about it. Why is anybody doing anything? Maybe I should do something. I don't know.
00:57:05
Speaker
Oh, what could I do? Like it's. You must be going out of your mind right now. Well, I mean, I've adopted some coping strategies, and in case you couldn't tell from all my lighter flicks, I'm high lot of the time.
00:57:17
Speaker
I am smoking weed pretty much constantly. helps. Well, and plus, you know, I'm um working on the end of my trilogy, and once that's done, I'll be able to take a sizable step back from a lot of political stuff.
00:57:33
Speaker
I mean, I'll probably still be involved in this socio-political stuff, but as far as paying attention to specific people, going to do as well as that as I can when I'm when i'm done with the series.
00:57:44
Speaker
Yeah, we just stay focused on our books, and at night ah watch Midsommar Murders or Poirot whatever, Star Trek. We just started Discovery. Oh my god, it's so good.
00:57:58
Speaker
I've heard that. Yeah, we're almost done with the first season of of Discovery. And um in the beginning, the captain is um Jason Isaacs. And he's great.
00:58:10
Speaker
He is just wonderful. um Yeah. So, yeah, I get that. I think streaming, I actually stream a lot of the same stuff over and over because it's comforting. but it doesn't seem comforting because it'll be like Dexter or the Sopranos or something.
00:58:26
Speaker
Oh, that's, that's comforting. It's like, oh yeah, it's that wonderful scene where that guy beats that guy to death. Yeah. Robert and I go around saying it's a jacket from the Sopranos all the time. It just kind of stuck.
00:58:39
Speaker
I did not want to watch that show because I don't care for mob stuff. But I was he he drew me into it and I thought I got out. No. um And then I ended up doing mobster stuff in candle bay i'd never even seen the godfather of movies and so sopranos got me to watch that and and um sounds like it made you an offer you couldn't refuse that's right we just watched him again fredo he's such an idiot but they're great i used to re-watch everything constantly and because i never the add again i never kept anything and then came the fall in my head
00:59:22
Speaker
I would, everything, know, somebody will say, oh, there's this clue we just found to this thing. And my brain goes, oh, that's an interesting clue. I think I'll think about that for a while and I'd lose the show.
00:59:35
Speaker
But now I sit there with my phone in my hand and I play spider incessantly or Waduku or anything like that that takes no brains. And now I can watch TV and actually get the plot.
00:59:48
Speaker
I never could before. That's another coping strategy. Yeah, I'm familiar with that as well. That's that's a good one. It's interesting. i was ah What you were saying actually made made me think about the difference between The Sopranos and The Godfather in terms of how it handles the mafia, and terms of like the viewer. Because when you watch The Godfather movies, you are absolutely meant to think that the Corleones are the good guys, and you're supposed to root for them.
01:00:15
Speaker
Whereas Tony Soprano is an asshole from beginning to end. He's not a good guy. He's shitty to his family. He's you know he's a liar. He's a criminal. He cheats constantly. oh yeah He's not a good guy, but he's still the focal character.
01:00:31
Speaker
That's why my husband doesn't like it, because he doesn't want to watch a show where you're expected to root for someone bad. Yeah, and I really get that. i Robert likes stuff with negative characters all the way through them. And I like the hero's journey.
01:00:46
Speaker
I'm with your husband on that. ah but Well, that's yeah why when he picks what we watch, we watch Star Trek. Because even though there are going to be people that are flawed and you might not agree with all their decisions, there's going to be heroes afoot, always.
01:01:01
Speaker
Yeah, i like I like to have a hero around. A flawed hero, but a hero. And, you know, like Dexter as a flawed hero. but For a while. I think he kind of loses himself at the end because he has a lot of opportunities for self-reporting.
01:01:17
Speaker
reflection and examination he i never watched the last of the series gave up dish at the time and have never not done that whole cinematic universe now because there's something there was a season that carries on after the original series and then there's a prequel and this summer there's another series that's going to take over after the one that took over the took up to after the original series and Isn't it interesting that he's such a in a character who has taken off like that?
01:01:49
Speaker
He's a freaking serial killer, but he's a good guy. i I love that. Yeah. ah Tell us about. oh Well, it says an awful lot about us as a people. And it it I think like it to me, it it relates very much to sociopolitics, because I think right now we're in this space where Democrats are reexamining things like let's always stay calm and use reason.
01:02:13
Speaker
Like, well, no, they're here to kill us. Let's not stay calm and use reason. Feed this up a little bit. Yeah. but Like, all right, I'm not going to say that I'm ready to go full Luigi, but I'm not not saying that.
01:02:27
Speaker
Yeah. No, it's scary out there. It really is. I mean, we we have discussed, seriously discussed keeping a gun in the house.
01:02:38
Speaker
And because after like I was a Kamala ambassador before the election, I was so sure we were going to take Michigan. and and And afterwards, we had planned something for H's birthday and we were going to go hang out near the area where I went to high school, which is pretty redneck-y. It's a city called Hazel Park.
01:02:56
Speaker
And we got calls. Well, I shouldn't say we. I got messages and calls from people telling me that me and my N-word hundred husband need to stay out of their city and they don't want my liberal pedo ass there. and Because, you know, everybody's a pedo to them if they don't agree.
01:03:14
Speaker
And hold done you it was pretty scary. It was gross. We didn't go. We stayed here. Because the thing is, when it's me, if someone is threatening just me, my attitude is come at me, you coward. I don't know.
01:03:27
Speaker
i Because, you know, im unlike you guys, I'm all about the confrontation. Like, you got some shit to say? Come here. Say it. Say it to my face. But yeah when my husband's involved, I mean, he's a black guy and he's over six feet tall, which is very dangerous in any sort of Oh, yeah.
01:03:45
Speaker
Like if if someone should decide that he was the aggressor, that could go really bad, really, really bad. Yeah. So I when it when he's involved, I just want to avoid conflict.
01:03:57
Speaker
With good reason. Wow. People are nuts. Boy. Well, I'm hoping Kamala decides to run for governor of California. Well, Gavin Newsom's about pissed everybody off. So she shouldn't have a difficult time if she wants it. Well, you can't run again.
01:04:14
Speaker
I don't really have a problem with him, but I don't. always that Is that what's going on? He can't run again. i was wondering why he suddenly was you know, yeah, he about trans people and stuff. Yeah, he he won't, I don't pay much attention ah to him, but I even voted Republican once for Arnold.
01:04:34
Speaker
But that was the only time I ever voted a Republican. um But he was a good guy. And I i ended up knowing him and his ghost group that I hung out with a bunch of cops.
01:04:46
Speaker
A couple of them were in his retinue when he was in L.A., oh wow it was kind of fun but he he seemed like a good guy but um that was when he was gov the governor but not to be confused with governor the body ventura ew oh my little nazi um am i getting them right are we talking about that big blonde guy with the mustache i don't know that's hulk hogan oh ventura was legitimately a governor
01:05:20
Speaker
Oh, okay. I thought Hulk Hogan was too. ah No, but I wouldn't put it past him. He's big MAGA boy now. Okay. I'm getting them all. Yeah. That's, that's, that was who my ooh was for.
01:05:33
Speaker
um and just like Hey, you can't be mean to Jesse Ventura. He was in the running man. He's great. Actually, I don't know anything about him personally. He could be a Republican for a lot. I i apologize for actually accidentally dissing him. I thought he was Hulk Hogan.
01:05:48
Speaker
I turned him around. i actually ye Well, it's it's so important that Hulk Hogan be dissed that I think we're going to have to just excuse any accidental friendly fire dissing.
01:05:59
Speaker
Yeah, that was friendly fire that I don't know anything about. Make sure that Hulk Hogan gets the disrespect that he is entitled to. Disrespect. And later. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
01:06:12
Speaker
It's always a drag when ah when a goes fash or just bows down to the fash, like The Rock, man. Because The Rock, I don't want to go on and on about politics, but The Rock made it a point to not endorse a candidate because he said he didn't want to cause division.
01:06:31
Speaker
And to me, I find that more offensive than, like, if if you're a MAGA guy and that's what you believe is the right thing to do, then by all means, stand up and say that if that's what you think. Like, I don't agree with you.
01:06:47
Speaker
but okay that's that's some of what you are but if you know that things like treason and sexual assault and espionage are wrong and you don't want to stand up and say so because you think it will cause division that seems very much to me like he doesn't want to alienate his manga fans so he's not going to say anything that's probably true i don't know a lot about it i just Every morning I read Heather Cox Richardson and I read Robert Reich and then I shut off my brain and I don't even read all of them mostly because it makes my brain hurt and I don't like to think about it too long.
01:07:25
Speaker
I figure you have to know things, but. Well, this is great, man. It's like even Horowitz report is too much news. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the thing. I don't trust news. Even the, the, they're all about the clicks. Yeah.
01:07:41
Speaker
and yeah um me I like that so many small journalists are coming out and uniting a small journalist. I think that that makes me happy. Well, Bezos buying the Washington Post was a huge blow to journalism. And he's done exactly what I expected him to do.
01:07:59
Speaker
You know, squash bad stories about Amazon, play up fascism, talk shit about millennials, like all of that crap. And then all the that what always happens all the decent people say oh this is terrible and you know they leave and so then all the decent people are gone I watch crime all the time and at the top of the screen, it says all of a sudden it was advertising the apprentice and I couldn't get that off the screen fast enough. just creeps me out. That's why we started paying for YouTube. We paid for YouTube the month before the election and because every commercial was about Donald Trump, you know, positive and negative.
01:08:42
Speaker
And it's like, I don't want to see that asshole's face on my nice TV. Yeah. we were We normally, at dinnertime, we watch English because they're more polite cooking shows.
01:08:54
Speaker
And Tubi with ads is full of English cooking shows. yeah And we stopped watching it for quite a while because we didn't want to see any ads, even local ones for politics.
01:09:04
Speaker
Yeah. Well, they're just, I mean, it's so taxing because their whole point is to make you angry, first of all. And it's like, okay, well, I'm angry now. can I have my show back, please? Yeah.
01:09:17
Speaker
yeah yeah it's it's yeah exactly or i'd mute it or whatever but i don't even want to see it but but now it's stopped again i can watch english cooking shows at dinnertime but so we point and laugh at the fish you know yeah for people who don't know tell us about the ravencrest saga alistair and i both love gothic horror we um I would run home from school when I was a little bitty kid to watch Dark Shadows.
01:09:51
Speaker
And so that had quite an influence on me. Oh, I should probably ah interrupt just to tell you that if my name was not Wednesday, it would be Angelique because that was my mother's other favorite TV show name.
01:10:03
Speaker
When I met Laura Parker at a book signing, the first thing out of my mouth, I fangirled. I never fangirled. First thing out of my mouth was, I was you for Halloween. Yeah.
01:10:15
Speaker
ah And i mean I have like a dozen books under my belt at this point. I was you for Halloween. She looked at me and she was still beautiful. She had to be pushing 80 by then, but yeah.
01:10:26
Speaker
but Yeah, yeah. Angelique was great. And that was the only thing I didn't like in the Tim Burton movie was that bimbo he cast as Angelique. It would have been a lot better.
01:10:39
Speaker
But he was screwing her. What can you say? But I'd run home with that and then I'd run to the library and look up everything there was on the Ching or whatever they'd introduced me to. And then Alistair and I both in our youth went through ah phase of looking for every, I call them Tessa Tittleberry Towers books.
01:10:58
Speaker
I learned that from the National Lampoon, the Gothic cover with the girl running from the mansion and looking back. yeah like Yeah. We both read all of those. So we had all this history together for that stuff and we knew we should do a series.
01:11:11
Speaker
And so he liked the name Belinda and I said, sure, why not? And then We made up a story about her and it was going to be erotica. There, I have a good story for you.
01:11:26
Speaker
When we started it, we thought, well, maybe we'll make up another name for ourselves and we'll write dirty stuff because maybe that'll be a good way to make money. But it's that old ADD thing.
01:11:37
Speaker
You can't write something and stick with it if you're not super interested. yeah Because we were delivering Belinda stuff. as ah what's it called ah you know serial novel and every episode we had to have have it end with sex boy did that get old in just a few episodes oh i'm sure i'm terrible terrible at writing sex scenes Oh, you do that a lot, don't you? Or you did?
01:12:05
Speaker
Well, i I mean, I'm a sex writer, but my sex writing is not fiction. Like when I do sex writing, I'm writing informational articles or I'm reviewing sex toys. It's not in in a lot of people make that assumption because if I were writing like romance, I would say romance writer because you're a sex writer makes, you know, like I think of it would like journalistically, like a sports writer or a food writer.
01:12:29
Speaker
Yeah, ah this was we turned it back around really fast. we it's a The second episode, though, we finally have cleaned it up to the point where it's not really erotica anymore.
01:12:41
Speaker
But we got a lot of interest in that. But we didn't have any interest. So it became a full out and out, you know, It's got romance. It's a gothic. But it's pure gothic horror.
01:12:54
Speaker
And we have so much fun with it. There's a lot of humor in it. And there's every kind of paranormal thing you could imagine in it. And there's still... who' are going We're going to introduce a character to a butt plug very soon.
01:13:09
Speaker
um my. I'm going to have to write that scene. We've done it before in Ravencrow. Our witch, Mrs. Heller, she's really bad. She likes to do things like that to people.
01:13:20
Speaker
But it's not very sexy. It's just very aggressive. No, consent. Consent is everything. yeah I write about it so much. Yeah. Well, there's no consent. Well, he will consent because he's an old drunk, but um it's, it's overall, it's, it's not real sexy anymore. It's, we're having fun growing Belinda from, she has some natural talents and abilities that she doesn't, right now she's at a place where she does not want these abilities and she wants to leave and
01:13:53
Speaker
And nobody wants her to leave, blah, blah, blah. And there's all these ghosts running around. They're dealing with one that plays and or a pipe organ. And every time we write the word organ, we giggle for a second.
01:14:06
Speaker
and It's the bride of Ravencrest right now. And we've we've hinted at her from the very beginning. And now she's she's having her moment. And it's a lot of fun. and It really is. I never liked, I don't even like to read series, but now I know that to sell books, you have to write series. So trying to do that.
01:14:26
Speaker
what what ah What number is coming up? Well, this one will be number five. Oh, my goodness. And Ravencrest is easy to write as a series because there's so many characters and there's so many places we can go.
01:14:37
Speaker
The last one, we even had Kirk and Spot zap in for a second. And it was a little freaky. um There's that joke that people do where they dress up like Star Trek and go to the Renaissance Fair.
01:14:51
Speaker
Oh, how fun. I would do that. And they're like telling people not to break the prime directive and stuff. Oh, that's totally me. wouldn't Wow. I've never even heard of that. Oh, you got to do it. Kirk and Spock, but she really sees them.
01:15:07
Speaker
But we don't know really what's going on there. There's a lot of magic with a K going on in that book. Okay. In fact, that was Elementals doing. I like Elementals.
01:15:18
Speaker
Elementals are fun. Right on. Yeah. Now, in some of your other fiction, I am aware that you've sort of exacted revenge on your dad. um And that's, you know, like I said, that's something and I've done as well. So i would love to hear more about that.
01:15:37
Speaker
um The first time it was completely subconscious until the book was almost over with. And It was, it's, it's bad things. It's one of my favorite novels and it's about twin brothers and our protagonist is whole.
01:15:54
Speaker
And his brother was legless like Johnny Eck that you'd know from, um, freaks. Okay. Yep. Old movie who was a really accomplished guy. He was an orchestra leader. Everybody loved him, but he was without legs. Yeah.
01:16:10
Speaker
And I really thought circus freak stuff was fascinating. I still do. Oh, yeah. but Have you read the bio of Daisy and Violet Hilton? No, I know about them. Oh, there's a great bio that came out. I actually read it while I was doing research to write my zombie book, The Finster Effect, because I wanted to have conjoined twins in it because I hadn't.
01:16:31
Speaker
you know, a really terrifying idea where one dies and the other does not. Ooh, that is nasty. Yeah. Those two in real life died like three days apart. They'd pretty much have to, wouldn't they?
01:16:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty disturbing, but, but I totally interrupted you to interject that. Oh, well, um, Icky Rick. Well, he, Ricky was Rick or Ricky, depending on if it was childhood or current time is the hero.
01:16:58
Speaker
And Robin was the one who, something happened. It's a, it's a changeling myth story, but he became very evil. And ah the whole idea was to write a story about a handicapped person who was not a good person at all.
01:17:14
Speaker
And, um, so what was the point? Oh, what happened is toward the end of the book, I had referred to my father,
01:17:27
Speaker
All the time as, and he died when I was 16, thank heaven. um As ah crew an emotionally crippled little man. i Remember this was decades ago.
01:17:38
Speaker
and's Okay. And I meant emotionally, but I'd say he was a crippled little man. He was five feet five. He was, he had short man syndrome like crazy. Okay. And um I used the term in the book. I was about 50 pages from the end and things were coming to a head.
01:17:54
Speaker
And he called his brother an emotionally crippled little man. And all of a sudden I went, oh, Christ, I've been writing about my father. just was a practical joker, all kinds of horrible things. I hate practical jokes because of him.
01:18:11
Speaker
And it stopped me cold. I couldn't, I had, I had to carpentalize, reread the book, everything to get that out of my head, to finish the book the way it was supposed to be done, because I didn't want my father having anything to do with that.
01:18:27
Speaker
And then. So
Family Secrets and Emotional Impact
01:18:29
Speaker
that was one. And the other one is in the forgotten. And I, this I did on purpose. Um, when I was a kid, it was forbidden to mention my brother's older, my father's older brother who had died oh decades and decades and decades before I was born in a hunting accident. His name was Milo.
01:18:52
Speaker
Now, when I was, we were fairly early married, we got a kitten that we named Baby Milo after the Milo in the Planet of the Apes movie.
01:19:04
Speaker
Okay. And my mother laughed and said, did you do that on purpose? And i huh? And she told me that, remember, your father didn't like anybody to Talk about Milo.
01:19:16
Speaker
he He died. And so I didn't know much about that. He was a ah ah fighter a fighter pilot in the war, a big war.
01:19:27
Speaker
And he came home. He was very heroic and he was tall. He came home with his bride and all his medals. And he and my father, who was four years younger, in short, um went hunting together in West Virginia.
01:19:42
Speaker
And only my father came back. And evidently, the story was that Milo had accidentally shot himself with a shotgun when he went through a fence.
01:19:56
Speaker
and And was gut shot. He died. life thought My brother did some research and it I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure my father told one of his practical jokes and it probably went off and he probably killed him by accident.
01:20:15
Speaker
I used that in the book and that was, that was the only time I ever did anything on purpose. that was It was at the least bit biographical in a way, maybe be sort of, kind of, but i I think that was why we couldn't say his name. And my father ran away from home at age 16.
01:20:33
Speaker
ah Right after that. So what a horrible thing to have on your call. Practical jokes. Yeah. He still played practical jokes, though, but not quite that bad.
01:20:45
Speaker
My gosh. but i don't know. it It might not be true, but that's what as you were telling the story, I... Because, you know, hunting accident is often code for murder the woods. Or, you know, yeah I always think of Ed Gein, because Ed Gein went hunting with his dad. And, you know, the dad was mysteriously shot.
01:21:07
Speaker
That's right. and Yeah. I don't think at age 16 it would have been done on purpose. Or maybe it was done in a fit of pique or whatever. Well, based on what you've said, I think a practical joke gonna rise is much more re reasonable to... That's what I think, too. If we're gonna assume...
01:21:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's my guess. But anyway, I use that in the book, but I can't say more than that without giving away a big spoiler. Sure. Sure. Yeah, we don't want that.
01:21:35
Speaker
um Let me ask you, though, what do you think was the lasting impact of your relationship with your father? I don't cry.
01:21:47
Speaker
I'm very good in emergencies. You want me there if something goes wrong. I'm cool as a cucumber. um If I feel like crying, I laugh.
01:22:00
Speaker
And I'm very easily embarrassed.
01:22:05
Speaker
But I found that being sort of self-deprecating, you know, going ahead and allowing myself to make self-deprecating jokes keeps that away.
01:22:17
Speaker
But yeah, my editor took me to see Les Mis in New York. I'm sitting in this sea of, ah somehow we got in a sea of Italian men.
01:22:27
Speaker
There were not even anyone. They're all sitting around me crying at the scenes in Les Mis. And I'm sitting there keeping my head tilted back and touching the tips of my eyes so that I don't let any tears loose because I'm too humiliated to even think that I might cry at something you're supposed to cry at.
01:22:44
Speaker
I kind of take that and it never goes away. And what's that movie, that Costner movie with the baseball field? Field of dreams.
01:22:54
Speaker
Yeah. That one will get me to the point where was sitting there sobbing and I have to get up and go out of the room so that my eyes don't get wet. That's the biggest lasting impact I know.
01:23:06
Speaker
Wow. That's. It's annoying. That's a drag, man. That is a real fucking drag. Yeah, but at least I don't get sinus headaches from crying. But I do laugh my ass off at a lot of things. and i But I hated him from the time I was a little kid. we i Oh, you know what? I did put something into Mother that Alistair and I did together. Oh, I read the hell out of that book, so I need to hear this.
01:23:34
Speaker
Well, you know, when mother takes the daughter Claire's soiled blood, blood stained pants, underwear and puts them all over the house.
01:23:49
Speaker
Yeah. My father did that to me. Holy shit. I, my mom and I would go to San Francisco every year. And that year i was so body, kind ah my body shame was through the roof always. And my mother would put like a box of Kotex. I was probably going to the sixth grade in the closet and not even ask me about it.
01:24:10
Speaker
That's she understood. And she knew, ah you know God only knows what happened to make me so humiliated about that. I don't know. Or maybe I was born that way. But anyway, my father would always go in my room.
01:24:22
Speaker
destroy all my writing i wrote star trek stories and all kinds of shit and uh take any books he disapproved of and go through my drawers well i had a bunch that year it was when it got me and i had a bunch of blood-stained underwear hidden in my drawers desk drawers and um my grandmother broke her hip and my mother had to stay up there past Easter vacation. So she called my father to come and get me.
01:24:49
Speaker
It was one of the only times I remember ever getting emotional. I did not want to go. i remember my aunt comforting me and she was a tough old bird, you know, army wife and all that.
01:25:02
Speaker
And I wasn't real embarrassed around her. It was weird, but it was the only time i ever cried. And, um, he drove me home. We didn't speak the whole way. um,
01:25:14
Speaker
He stayed outside when I went in the house and I found bleached underwear in every room, laid everywhere. There must have been 20 pair. And i gathered them all up and shoved them in my room. And then he came in the house. He never said a word, but I didn't like him before that.
01:25:33
Speaker
But at that point it became pure hatred. And the only reason i was nice to him was for my mother's sake, because she had no idea. And when he died, i pretended to be sad because I didn't want my mother to know I wasn't.
01:25:50
Speaker
And that's the story of my father and how much I hated him. How dare he do that to a child? Yeah, that's I don't even know what to say. That's that's horrific.
01:26:02
Speaker
Yeah, it was incredibly. It's so deliberate. I mean, that is such an intentional. Yeah, that ah yeah it's it's that's staggering. Because yeah, it's just one of those.
01:26:15
Speaker
How do you think you're the good guy? How do you think you're an okay person after you do something like that? and I will never understand how people like that live with themselves. I don't know.
01:26:27
Speaker
i really don't know. I think he was humiliated in ways. I think he had a terrible, but it's no excuse. I just think that. Because when you're being humiliated, you know that it hurts. It's like punching, yeah you know, and people say, oh, we have to, look we have to take sensitivity training. So we know not to punch people.
01:26:44
Speaker
No, if you've ever been punched, you know, it hurts. And so, you know, not to do it because you're hurting people. If you make that leap, you need to not be around people. You certainly shouldn't be parenting anyone.
01:26:56
Speaker
No. And he, oh, that just, that was, that was it. And there was no more. My mother told me that I stopped calling him dad or daddy when I was, before I was three, it was somewhere in my second year, around two and a half.
01:27:14
Speaker
She never knew why. I don't know why either. But um I stopped calling him anything, and I never could. I still, when I talk to my brother or anything, I say our father. I can't bring the words out.
01:27:27
Speaker
Cat daddy is the closest thing I'll say to Alistair Robert. And we're talking about them, not him. But, yeah, it's unbelievable cruelty. i mean, if you have kids, you're probably going to screw them up one way or another.
01:27:43
Speaker
but that was what you said intentional and for somebody who is so shy body conscious oh boy yeah so that that's probably my ultimate story and i did
Blending Fiction with Reality in Writing
01:28:00
Speaker
find out my sister-in-law asked me to talk to my brother once and um long time ago now and she's passed but I found out that he almost committed suicide because of my father coming down on him. and
01:28:17
Speaker
it's and he's tried to apologize for me it for running off and joining the army when I was real little. I, geez, you're a teenager. That's okay. And, and the only one who liked my father evidently was my sister who also has little man syndrome and I don't get along with her, but, um, yeah,
01:28:38
Speaker
yeah I get that. I have i have ah two half-brothers that I grew up with, and one of them is still real close with my abuser, and the other one is kind of the get-along guy. you know He'll pop by for dinner on Thanksgiving or whatever. but Yeah.
01:28:56
Speaker
Isn't that funny how people react differently? Yeah. Well, yeah, I went no contact when I was 23, 24, right around there. That's why. I was just out.
01:29:06
Speaker
and And I had to cut off from the whole family because my mom was a narcissist. So as soon as I was not under her control, she called everyone she could think of to tell them a bunch of crazy gaslighting shit about me.
01:29:19
Speaker
always well she told everybody I was a drug addict and that if I called I was calling to ask for money and I was probably in jail and I mean I smoked weed and I did acid but it's I mean she made it sound like I was strung out on heroin or something it was a little horrible well yeah but I mean she was always one of those like you see what I gotta put up with while she made up you know that sort of narcissistic gaslighting thing oh that's awful Now, if we can actually move on to some of your solo stuff, I was looking into the old wives tale books and they, I love the concept. That sounds fascinating. How is that going? It's it's going good. I'm working on the third one. And the first one, it's actually the same character.
01:30:07
Speaker
Sheriff Tully. he He was introduced in eternity years and years ago. And that's a town where everything's weird. It's up in the mountains. It's based on the Mount Shasta lore here in California.
01:30:19
Speaker
And it's a Jack the Ripper story. And um I moved him down to the California coast, central coast, which I really like. And Now he's in um a town called Fort Charles, which is, if you turn it around, you get Charles Fort, which, you know, the damned book. Oh, okay. Frogs falling from the sky, things like that. That's the guy that wrote that stuff.
01:30:45
Speaker
And so now he's down there at this town. And so I can have anything I want happen there because everything happens there. So I can do a series without having to stick to exactly the same thing every time. And I've got my sheriff that I like there.
01:31:00
Speaker
And, um, so Selkie wives is the second. Oh, she totally shows up in, um, Darling Girls, our collaboration that brings Candle Bay, my vampires, and his crimson corset vampires together.
01:31:15
Speaker
Oh, okay. And Tully is in that, too. Wow. And then Tully moves back. to the coast and become sheriff down there and at first the book was called old wives tales and i realized boy that's a really good series title so it became selkie wives and that that has mostly some mermaid stories and some um it turned to Lovecraftian and I don't even care for Lovecraft. I was, there's a, there's a sea monster thingy in it.
01:31:49
Speaker
And I was researching on National Geographic channel and, came across Nan Madal, which is, it turned out that's where Lovecraft put Cthulhu. And this, I didn't know that at the time. And I started reading and, oh, okay, well, it's good enough for him.
01:32:06
Speaker
yeah And I just sort of played off that. And so that was the first book. And now I'm working on it again and Spiral Sea. And this is about, this has a pirate, a ghost ship.
01:32:20
Speaker
it's a lot more complicated than that, but it's, it's, I'm using solar maximums, although I never use the word where it has sort of this weird lighting thing and things come up out of the ocean there. And I'm also, I've also got a serial killer. I love serial killers called nature boy at work. He doesn't like poachers and there's a whole lot more to that too.
01:32:43
Speaker
And so that's this book. And, eventually i want Tully to come up against Jack the Ripper again that was eternity nice so that's that's what I'm doing now okay so when you are writing a series is there a plan in place from the beginning and like do you have an end for the series in mind or is it just sort of a let's explore this character, then this one, then this one. So maybe there's not an ending at all planned. Like I don't. trust We know will probably be about seven books.
01:33:22
Speaker
It could go further. ah We know where we know it has an ending. Okay. But this well, it's really hard to advertise books when they're not a series.
01:33:35
Speaker
This needs a series. Well, I love Tully. He's my favorite sheriff I ever created. Yeah. Let's let him keep being in the middle of things. Because I always like cops. I'm always attracted to the the sheriff who doesn't.
01:33:47
Speaker
He's too mature to be a yeah yes man. He follows his heart rather than the law. That kind of thing. All right. And. ah So I just put him in a situation. And as far as I know, there's no ending unless I move him again. But I don't know why. I like going to the coast.
01:34:08
Speaker
That's a great excuse to research, you know. And i there are threads that will continue, long storylines that will take a long time to, you know, put together.
01:34:24
Speaker
But no, I have no idea where this will go.
01:34:29
Speaker
But sometimes do and sometimes you don't. And I do pull in characters from other books like David Masters from Haunted and ah other ones that you see now and then. Costelletti, you've seen him in Alistair's books, solo books too.
01:34:47
Speaker
I created him for Candle Bay. He's kind of a voice. He's a DJ. Yeah. And Alistair was the one who put him into Darling Girls and gave him an actual physical form and everything.
01:34:59
Speaker
And we do that. So we kind of have a Thorn and Cross universe that can be used by Thorn or Cross or Together. and that's kind of, I always think of that as a series because our places are series, whether it's solo or or together.
01:35:16
Speaker
And like Crimson Cove is here. um We went there together, but he'd started writing about it before he got there. It's it's right near where Lost Boys takes place up in the mountains.
01:35:30
Speaker
And it's, and we visited that. That was a lot of fun. But all this stuff we do together. And so I don't know how that answers your question, but.
01:35:43
Speaker
No, it does. It seems like there's a variance. Yeah, there is. i don't like to be, have to plan something too far in advance because that's boring.
01:35:54
Speaker
That's why, i like, when i I don't even read series, i I read like the first three True Blood books and then I got bored, even though I really like them, but I want to read something different.
01:36:07
Speaker
So I don't really want to write the same thing over and over. But if I can write in the series without having to write the same thing over and over, I like that. I see. i see.
01:36:18
Speaker
ah guess it's not very good answer. Well, I'm not actually grading you, so take solace in that. Oh, good. I'm bad with grades. I get to test. So for people that are unfamiliar with your work, where would you say is the best place to start?
Exploring Haunted House Themes
01:36:36
Speaker
um Well, the big seller has always been haunted. And that's that was when I switched publishers and stopped calling myself Chris Curry. Cause I had to stop doing that. I hated that name anyway.
01:36:54
Speaker
Wasn't me. um I had always wanted to write a haunted house novel because I love haunted houses more than life itself. I love the afterlife. And this is my ode to Hill house, hell house, ghost and Mrs. Muir, you name it. It's in there.
01:37:13
Speaker
And yeah, i put it Because I could, i put in everything, every cliche i could think of. And then my editor, who was just starting out at the other publisher, said, make sure and put evil dolls in because that'll guarantee they'll let me buy it.
01:37:29
Speaker
and And so there are also evil dolls. And I remember groaning, but they turned out pretty cool. And the characters, David Masters, the horror writer who investigates things, and his daughter, they have no idea they're in a comedy.
01:37:46
Speaker
None whatsoever. It's very serious. And the rest of the characters are very serious, too. But I was sitting back there giggling and scratching and just... just having the best time in the world.
01:37:58
Speaker
And if you like haunted houses, that's probably a good spot. But otherwise, um books like, well, if you like it, a little science fiction-y. Thunder Road has a cowboy element, modern day, and UFOs.
01:38:18
Speaker
ah The Forgotten has elf waves, which are real things that hit on science, but it's, it's about a whole haunted town. And,
01:38:33
Speaker
I don't know. You could go for Ravencrest if you want to, you know, if you like that kind of thing. They're all okay. mean, the sorority is a total takeoff on Arthurian legend, and it's really, really silly.
01:38:47
Speaker
um So probably not that one, but I had fun. Okay. I think that that gives us a lot of options. Nice. Yeah, it can pretty much go anywhere. Moonfall is the other big, that's a witchcraft one, and that one's a big seller.
01:39:02
Speaker
And I don't know why, but enjoyed it. Okay. I go to Moonfall every year to pick apples, but it's really called Oak Glen. It's an hour from my house. Oh, okay.
01:39:14
Speaker
And it really does have satanic problems, or at least it used to. Maybe it's cleared up. Maybe. I don't know. There are some Christians up there, so there's probably devil worshipers, too.
01:39:26
Speaker
Oh, that's not real about these things.
01:39:32
Speaker
No, no. People at Church of Satan are jerks, but I don't think they actually worship the devil. And I know the people at Satanic don't, because that's where I am. So... Yeah, the Church of Satan people that I know, um much prefer to the idiots who claim they're Satanists because they're very kind animals, and that's all I really care about. Yep.
01:39:52
Speaker
Yeah, so that's okay. If you think you don't believe in God, but you believe in the devil, well, that's your prerogative. Yeah, that's kind of and that that that doesn't really make sense to me that you believe in one and not the other. I mean, most of the TST...
01:40:08
Speaker
There are some pagans there, but for the most part, it's it's just humanist. It's just, yeah let's be smart and kind and not suck. let Let's do that. What is the DST you said? yes tell me The Satanic Temple.
01:40:21
Speaker
Oh, okay. Because there are two main groups of quote-unquote Satanists in this country anyway. LeVay is not involved in the Satanic Temple. Oh, okay.
01:40:33
Speaker
No, the guy there, um like the the top guy is a dude named Lucian Greaves. And that's not his real name. He has to like a couple of aliases just to make his family safe.
01:40:45
Speaker
But it is a more sociopolitical organization because their deal... Really is when groups like Christian groups say, hey, we're going to do Jesus stuff at the town hall or in schools or whatever.
01:40:57
Speaker
Satanic temple, people would show up and say, oh, great, we're doing religious things. So where where where do we put the Satan stuff? And then they say, oh, no, no, I guess we're not really doing that. But these days, that's not as effective because now people are much more out loud and proud about saying, no, Jesus, just Jesus.
01:41:18
Speaker
in based on what I've read about Jesus, he probably wouldn't be down with that. But, you know, no that's not a thing anymore. There's a whole swath of quote unquote Christians that think that Christ is some like hippie loser that they don't want to follow. So.
01:41:35
Speaker
Yeah. Isn't that weird? so Jehovah's Witnesses left a flyer on the door yesterday. I'm sorry. Oh, no. Oh, yes. Oh, I get it. I get it. and And I was really surprised. I looked at it and, know, I thought it was a gas cup and they wanted to inspect the meter. And I was really surprised to see this kind of swarthy looking guy on it.
01:41:55
Speaker
And I realized, oh, so Jesus has gotten some skin color now. His hair is a little shorter. He still has that same batific face. you know his eyes that look like oh yeah i'd screw you and um but they they've actually let him get a little bit more middle eastern the jehovah's witnesses think of that let's see that's wild because i know that in the seventy s when the mormons weren't really able to recruit they decide well i mean i imagine you know what happened but they uh Oh, I come from a long line of my mother moved away from Utah to get rid of
Religious Reflections and Beliefs
01:42:29
Speaker
them. So you know that it was like 1975 and they decided that God said, yes, black people do have souls and can be part of the church. Isn't that fun? 1975. So within my lifetime, that is terrifying.
01:42:44
Speaker
is it it is So maybe that's what Jehovah's Witnesses are doing now. chris I have them next door. Well, they used to be Jehovah's Witnesses, but he keeps changing and now he thinks there might be multiple gods. It's fascinating.
01:42:57
Speaker
The only thing he doesn't think is that there is no God, which is, you know, more my speed. I find the idea of a polytheistic Jehovah's Witness to be utterly fascinating. Yeah, I think he's given up the Jehovah's Witness part because he wants to talk about, there's all these. And he researches constantly. wants a birthday party.
01:43:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's fascinating. And I said, but you don't believe there's no God or like, you know, I'm kind of Buddhistic in my thoughts, I guess is a better way of saying it. Because I won't say I'm an atheist because they get out and carried away too.
01:43:27
Speaker
And, um you know, the Buddhist idea no, there's no God there. got have gods. And at oh multiple, yes. But he he was Jehovah's for a long time.
01:43:41
Speaker
And he gave up Catholicism when he married his Jehovah's Witness wife. Wow.
01:43:48
Speaker
It's fascinating. Interesting. I mean, but they're so different. I mean, I know it's the same God and everything, but... Jehovah's Witnesses are so austere, like as ah as a faith. And then you get the Catholic. yeah It's like, well, we're going to play it everything in gold and we're going to have the best music you've ever heard.
01:44:06
Speaker
And way too much incense. No, exactly the right amount of incense. Come on now. Oh, i in sense I'm sorry. it's just these People can disagree. But yeah, incense.
01:44:17
Speaker
I think the Nag Champa was one of my favorite things about Catholicism. The architecture. I've had a lifelong hate with fragrances, smoke and anything with that. It all gives me a migraine.
01:44:29
Speaker
Well, Zyrtec makes it ah a low headache now, but yeah, I don't do smells. I'm a smellist. ah um but yeah so You're actually um reaching the end of our time. And I want to make sure, was there anything that you wanted to talk about that we did not get to?
01:44:47
Speaker
Our Lord and Master Cthulhu. I don't know. um I love my cats. um That's about that on cats. I don't do politics. I'm a humanist, I guess.
01:45:01
Speaker
That's what I'm saying now to avoid being political. Yeah. But I'm very blue. I like being California. That's why we were able to speak for all this time because you're reasonable and blue.
01:45:16
Speaker
Yes, that's right. and like is is there anything that you want to ask me? Because I do like to give guests a chance to ask me something if they have something. I do want to ask you. Okay. Tell me what you're writing now.
01:45:29
Speaker
Oh, gosh. um and Well, I'm finishing up my trilogy, my President's Son trilogy. And the big joke now is that the first book in this trilogy came out in 2020. It wasn't going to be a trilogy. It was just one book.
01:45:43
Speaker
And it was about me trying to explain to the world why I am absolutely convinced that Don Jr. is a good person inside. I was so sure.
01:45:53
Speaker
I have been sure about that since like since he was a child. When he was like 12 or 13 and he stopped talking to his dad because his dad cheated on his mom. I said, wow, what a cool kid.
01:46:04
Speaker
What a little badass. Look how ethical he is. Look how moral. huh And I believe that for years and years and years. And even when all this MAGA stuff started, I was like, nope, that's fake.
01:46:16
Speaker
He's an abused child. This is fake. He doesn't believe it. He doesn't believe any of it. I was so, so sure. and then in like 2017, so after his dad was elected, this, like nobody believed me.
01:46:31
Speaker
Nobody believed he was a good person. And I'm like, nope, nope, I will not be swayed. And this thing happened where he was going to be building low income housing. And I was so obnoxious about it. And I was like, see, see you assholes. I told you he's a good guy and he's building houses for poor.
01:46:50
Speaker
Wait, what happened? Nobody got paid. It was all a scam from the beginning? oh No, no, no, no. That's not... Like, basically, I was like a regular Trump supporter, but with a different Trump.
01:47:02
Speaker
Like, no matter what you said. Like, well, he's in picture with terrible person. Oh, he must not know who that is. You know, like, i every excuse in the world, I had to defend that guy. And finally, I said, you know what?
01:47:15
Speaker
I'm going to fictionalize it. I'm going to write it all down. So I wrote this wonderful, heartfelt, sincere little book about an idiot who totally believed in this terrible son of an awful president.
01:47:27
Speaker
And then at the end, she finds out that like, oh, he... really is kind of a dick and but but no she still like believed in him and whatever and then so i i had it edited and i published it off genre you know i used a ah fake name and actually two fake names for the first book so i put it out and i'm so proud of it and then two months after it came out he helped lead a seditious attack on the capitol And I said, God damn it.
01:47:58
Speaker
So I was really super angry in 2022 and I wrote a sequel, but that was the year that I was sick. So I was sick in bed for like six months, could not get out of bed, was not eating. I almost died.
01:48:11
Speaker
You know, H each came home from work one day and couldn't wake me up. Called an ambulance, started this whole medical thing. um and then I still managed to get the book out by the end of the year.
01:48:23
Speaker
Wow. That book was really angry. Like that is a, and I thought I was angry because I was angry at him, but it was really cause I was dying and like, I was so angry and sad about everything.
01:48:36
Speaker
So the third book, which is the one I'm working on now is hilarious. um it The initial concept was that the main guy, Jonathan Rowlett Jr., his publishing house started writing books with AI.
01:48:51
Speaker
And the AI was actually going to bring about peace in the Middle East. That was the initial concept for the book. hu But then the real Trump told Bibi that the Levant belonged to Israel and all fucking hell broke loose over there. And it was, I decided that it was not even a little bit funny to try to write a satire about that, given what all subsequently happened.
01:49:15
Speaker
And then, you know, different things happened. And then he got elected again, supposedly. And so I kept having to like rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. There was a point at which, and actually told Alistair about this, there was a point at which...
01:49:32
Speaker
I said, okay, as long as space aliens do not come down to Earth, and as long as they don't tell people to shoot them, I won't have to change the book anymore. And goddamned if two days later i woke up to a Trump tweet that was like, well, we don't know what these ah these satellites are, but it's probably best if you shoot them down.
01:49:54
Speaker
all the the flap? Yep. like yeah okay uh it's kind of hard to not take this personal at this point oh god really think that you're messing with me as an individual but at the same time it was really considerate of of don jr to become the president's son again just for the release of the third book i feel like i should show him some appreciation for that this sounds fascinating now Well, the you third book is much funnier because it's mostly like they're at the part now where they're at this girl's school and the world is all fucked up and the government is going to try to conscript the girl's school and the girls' school are very ready for them.
01:50:35
Speaker
You're writing the Illuminatus trilogy for the new age, aren't you? Kind of. I mean, that wasn't the plan, but yeah I was actually thinking of myself more like a hitchhiker's guide.
01:50:47
Speaker
in that i would end up following the last book uh so long and thanks for all the treason oh god that's great now i gotta ask you a question about this okay i used to be the interviewer here and now i need to interview you um you you're saying things that are fascinating to me because i watch people you know on social media um our side saying you maggots are i don't feel sorry for you how how do you feel now this is horrible instead of going yeah you made a mistake bfd you know come join our side they're driving them further away and this irritates the crap out of me i gotta say this this is not the way we're supposed to act and you
Political Reflections and Regrets
01:51:35
Speaker
are freely admitting that you were taken in
01:51:38
Speaker
By junior. And you have come to terms with it. You're being very mature about this. But what i want to know is how, what do you think about all that?
01:51:51
Speaker
That the people with their heels dug in that can't, see what they were doing wrong? I mean, just in general, everything about that.
01:52:03
Speaker
How do you feel about how you, what did it make you feel like to have to realize that you were wrong? And how do you think other people, why are they still doing this? Um, I mean, i think that,
01:52:17
Speaker
Anybody can be wrong about anyone. That's absolutely true. yeah i think that there was a preponderance of evidence after Trump's first term and subsequent terrorist attack on our Capitol that that It was very obvious that that should not have a recurred, that such a person should not have been reelected. And honestly, I'm not convinced that he was fairly reelected.
01:52:45
Speaker
I think that Elon had a hand in some shenanigans. As much as I dislike conspiracy, I have to totally agree. Well, think that about the quote unquote assassination attempt.
01:52:56
Speaker
Because, oh, that was fake. Given what we know about Trump, first of all, he would never have given a civilian a million dollars, regardless of what happened, if he didn't feel that he was at fault.
01:53:08
Speaker
No. And he hasn't said a word about either of the people that supposedly tried to kill him. And no I mean, Rosie O'Donnell pointed out that he had a bankruptcy and he was shitty to her for over 30 years.
01:53:20
Speaker
So we know that he holds grudges and the fact that he does not have any ill will toward people that literally tried to murder him suggests to me that in fact, no one tried to murder him.
01:53:32
Speaker
Oh, i I can't imagine that that actually happened. No. But but but but to answer your question, um I mean, on on the one hand, any feelings that I had about ah Don Jr. were were my feelings.
01:53:48
Speaker
And even though I put it in a book, no one is required to read the book. People who voted for Trump the second time around or the third time around this time... this time not only did they know what he wanted to do to immigrants and to women and girls and gay and trans people, they knew all that.
01:54:09
Speaker
That was okay with Trump voters. They either thought that they themselves would be insulated or that just, you know, it wouldn't apply to them because they had enough money or they had or they were white or, you know, all this DEI nonsense.
01:54:24
Speaker
i think The DEI is bad. And then not realizing that it applies to things like old people and wheelchair rants and any woman who wants to work outside the home.
01:54:36
Speaker
Right. And then renaming the Enola Gay, the Enola Sis. I think that really goes well. Thank you. was really proud of that. Was that you? That was me. I love you. That was the funniest thing I've ever seen. Yeah.
01:54:51
Speaker
Yes, I was very, very... proud that's That's right up there with calling Joe Rogan bro-gramming. I was... Yes, I hit it. But yeah, I... um As much as I would... No, fuck them. if you If you voted for Trump the third time, I'm sorry. Fuck you. Because you voted to do bad things to people who weren't you. And the reason that they're ruining it now is because the bad things are happening to them.
01:55:21
Speaker
They cannot wait to make the trans people embarrassed and hide and, yeah you know, and then make, yeah you know, refugees feel like, I don't know. i know, i know a lot of parents.
01:55:34
Speaker
I don't know any parents who wouldn't say that they would kill for their child. They would break the law for their child. They would do yeah anything for their child. And yet when it's a Brown person, that's not from here.
01:55:46
Speaker
ah You know, I mean, Greg Abbott put like razor wire buoys in the water to drown people who were trying to swim for their safety.
01:55:57
Speaker
People that vote for those people, i don't see any reason why I should have to have empathy for them. Plus, I think the whole argument of if we're mean to those fascists, they're going to keep being more fascist is ah is a bullshit argument.
01:56:13
Speaker
Yeah. If you are only going to be a nice person to people that are nice to you. I mean, maybe it's the 30 years of customer service I have behind me. As a citizen, sometimes you have to tolerate things that you would rather not.
01:56:26
Speaker
And it's it's fine to speak out against them. But, you know, somebody who can come out and say I was wrong, though. That's that's what I'm talking about. OK, well, no, that that is absolutely valid to say that they were wrong.
01:56:39
Speaker
At this yeah point, I have follow-up questions. What do you know now that you didn't know in October of last year? That's a good point, too. Yeah. I know we're out of time, but I have one more question for you. It's something I've thought about a lot. Okay. I think this really started getting out of hand when we elected Obama.
01:57:01
Speaker
mean, we know that they were hanging him in effigy and all that. Mm-hmm. I think... The racists, the anti-DEI people, I can't even talk straight, really lost their shit because we we elected a black man for our president.
01:57:20
Speaker
And i suspect we're still seeing repercussions from that. what What do you think? I think that's absolutely true. I think that what is happening now is a fear reaction from old old men who are terrified of having to compete on a level playing field with women and brown people and black people and You know, that yeah it's all, i mean, because look at what they're doing. They're trying to dismantle education. They want us all to be sick and not get our shots.
01:57:50
Speaker
They don't want to teach anyone anything. They don't want people to have no fault divorce. They want women at home so that they can divorce their husbands. Yeah. Right. You know, and then there's this whole like, you know, the programming, the the Andrew Tates, the Charlie Kirks, the people that are telling boys to be as bad as women to women as possible because you deserve a woman anyway.
01:58:14
Speaker
You deserve a relationship. you does I mean, there are people now, teenagers, listening to podcasters that tell them that the government should issue men a woman so that they won't have to do bad things in the world because they're lonely and sad.
01:58:29
Speaker
You know, you hear about the male loneliness epidemic and stuff. And but you will him children get around and can't find women. Like, really? Women don't want to date you just because you don't want to treat them as a human being?
01:58:42
Speaker
stay not yeah
01:58:45
Speaker
um I'm glad you agree because it's such an odd thing to say, but I've felt that for quite a while now. No, I think that's absolutely true. then i shouldn't yeah Well, guess what, though? It's time for the Mad Lib.
01:59:00
Speaker
so Oh, I forgot about that. That's how my mother taught me. I could write, but I couldn't do the technical stuff. I'm i'm all for that. All right. Well, let's start with a plural noun.
01:59:14
Speaker
Curl noun. Oh, douchebags.
01:59:19
Speaker
And an adjective.
01:59:23
Speaker
Voluminous. I need a singular noun.
01:59:29
Speaker
Gooseberry. And another adjective.
01:59:37
Speaker
Oh, wow. um Oh God, now my mind's going blank all of a sudden. An adjective, um twinkly. All right. And another adjective, actually I need two, three more adjectives.
01:59:54
Speaker
Three more adjectives. This is tough. Yeah. um Let's see. Now an adjective is a descriptor. So that would be um effuvalent.
02:00:10
Speaker
And boisterous. And stinky.
02:00:17
Speaker
All right. Now this one is person in room. And that is always the guest. Oh, looks like there's another one. So that'll be me. Okay. And a plural noun.
02:00:29
Speaker
Plural noun. Cats.
02:00:33
Speaker
All right. to a verb ending in ing. Um. Oh, um, um.
02:00:42
Speaker
Flying. All right. And good Lord, another person in room. Uh, there's no one else in this room. So I'm going to put Joan Jett. That's one of my lizards.
02:00:53
Speaker
Okay. Uh, I have morning geckos. They're all named after famous lesbians. Oh, nice. I like that. Thanks. So I need one, two, three singular nouns.
02:01:05
Speaker
Okay. Um, I would like to say a a singular noun. A bathtub. Okay.
02:01:18
Speaker
A birthing stool. God knows where that came from. And a pipe organ. Pipe organ. and We laughed because we said organ, right?
02:01:30
Speaker
yeah Yes. I need two more adjectives. Two more adjectives. Slimy. And... I already said effuvelent.
02:01:44
Speaker
All right. An adverb. An adverb. Quickly. An occupation. oh a pile driver.
02:01:58
Speaker
I don't even know what that is. but and think it's a pro wrestler, right? I have idea. So the pile driver is a wrestling move. it might also sound here okay It might also be like a tool or something. I don't know.
02:02:11
Speaker
Okay. Last one. Last one is a part of the body. um Kneecap.
02:02:21
Speaker
was expecting it to be a little dirtier, but okay. i here on Nope. Nope. Too late. oh um right okay
02:02:30
Speaker
All right. trying to text my reputation okay This is called record breakers. To celebrate our little league team's many douchebags this season.
02:02:42
Speaker
Our coach took us to a voluminous restaurant for a pizza party. At the Gooseberry, he gave out twinkly awards to our team's most effuvelent players.
02:02:55
Speaker
Tamara got the Boisterous Slugger Award for hitting the most home cats.
02:03:02
Speaker
Wedness won the Stinky Eye Award for having the best flying average. And Joan Jett set a new record for bathtub stealing and was given a slimy trophy. don't show my dad.
02:03:18
Speaker
but I wasn't sure if Coach had birthing stool for me. I knew i wasn't the best hitter or best pile driver, though I worked very quickly all season.
02:03:31
Speaker
But to my surprise, Coach gave me a small silver pipe organ for being a noisy team player. I'm so proud I can't wipe the smile off my kneecap.
02:03:44
Speaker
Ha ha ha ha ha. and mar It is. And how do you pronounce your name? Oh, well, you know, my friends actually call me Wedness with two syllables.
02:03:56
Speaker
Wedness. Yeah, but you can call me Wednesday. People do. Wedness. I like that. It sounds like wetness. Well, now I'm not doing it.
02:04:07
Speaker
ah ah yeah is like The only abbreviation that I do not like is WED period. I don't like being called wed. I don't blame you. Yeah, not a fan.
02:04:19
Speaker
So, oh my gosh, I am so glad you could be here. This was great. This was a lot of fun. Thank you for having me. Oh, it is my pleasure. My absolute pleasure. And it, uh, I believe you're going to be giving us an audio sample to put on the end of the episode.
02:04:32
Speaker
Um, so. Yeah. My audio guy to send me something to send to you from old wives tales. Awesome. And we want to remind all of our listeners to find us on coffee.
02:04:44
Speaker
That's K O hyphen F i where we are sometimes hilarious. We're in the magazine sponsors, the podcast. Um, And everybody is all good friends here. So supporting the magazine is the best way to support the show.
02:04:57
Speaker
And we will see everybody next week.
02:05:05
Speaker
He raised his voice and his beer. To Paddy O'Toole, our brother, lost at sea. To Paddy, they echoed. Bottles were raised.
02:05:17
Speaker
Then Lazarus Clay bored his eyes straight into Quentin O'Toole's. He may have drowned. Or a shark might have got him. He paused.
02:05:29
Speaker
then spoke so quietly that everyone sat forward, straining to hear over the crackling fire. Or it might have been a mermaid.
02:05:43
Speaker
no one moved. No one spoke. No one laughed at the joke. Amos watched the hearthlight flicker over their faces in a timeless tableau.
02:05:53
Speaker
This could have been a meeting of the Old Salts in Uncle Alec's time, or even before that. Let's have a song, Amos said. it was a fitting thing tonight of all nights.
02:06:05
Speaker
He began to sing in a fine tenor, his mates joining on the chorus. She awakens in her coral cave upon her seaweed bed.
02:06:17
Speaker
Yearning for a sailor brave, a man she'll love and wed. Oh, a man she'll love and wed. hear the mer's hear voice Fear the kiss, kiss. Hoist the glass to glory's cast and fear the mermaid's kiss.
02:06:38
Speaker
For her need is as fierce as an ocean's squall, her desire twice as strong. There's not to do but heed the call, when together they belong. Oh, together they belong.
02:06:52
Speaker
hear the mermaids kiss, ho a glass to glories past and fear the mermaid's kiss Here's the call from the ocean, an old salt you must reply.
02:07:10
Speaker
Summer, winter, spring or fall, he'll heed the call or die. Oh, he'll heed the call or die. hear the mermaids, kiss his voice, fear the mermaids.
02:07:24
Speaker
ho a glass to glories past and fear the mermaid's kiss She takes his breath with a kiss so that he thinks he'll ne'er be alone.
02:07:37
Speaker
She brings him love and a bottle of rye while angels weep and moan. hear the mermaid's kiss, kiss. Hoist the glass to glory's past and fear the mermaid's kiss.