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Guest: Activist, trans-masc advocate Chapin Lennon
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Chapin Lennon is an activist and advocate who lives with dwarfism and is trans-masc. They are especially passionate about disability history and representation. We talk Peter Dinklage and Billy Barty, fetishists, representation--and what to do should some maniac treat you as if you're "good luck." Plus Foul Play, The Greatest Showman, and The Station Agent.
A full transcript of this ep can be found here.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsor
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You are listening to the Mentally Oddcast, where we talk with creatives about neurodivergence, trauma, addiction, and all the other things that impact and inform our art. Our goal is to show everyone that no matter what you're going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
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Music
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You are listening to the Mentally
Guest Introduction
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Speaker
Oddcast. My name is Wednesdayly Friday, and we are brought to you by Sometimes Hilarious Horror Magazine. Find us on coffee. This week, we are talking to Chapin. And Chapin is 26 years old. They live in Michigan.
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And they are one of the first openly transitioning people with dwarfism. They have a Bachelor of Science in Psychology. um Chapin identifies as non-binary transmasculine. And we will talk about that later.
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um They teach pre-K and advocate for making the world safer and more accessible for marginalized children. Wow, that must be great right now.
Social Media and Disability Advocacy
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um And also Chapin uses social media to educate and inform about disability history and its roots of intersection with other marginalized groups.
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So we're going to get into all of that. But before we do, well, let me first say hi and welcome. Hello, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and to talk about all this stuff today. Yeah,
Horror Movies and Personal Interests
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yeah. Now, before we get into the heavy stuff, we like to ask our guests to tell us about the first scary movie that they remember seeing.
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So what was yours? um I love scary movies, and but the first one I saw was actually the Paranormal Activity movie, the first one. And after that, I became obsessed with horror and thriller and all those types of movies. And I remember being nine years old and trying to watch The Ring with my friends and just being terrified. We couldn't even make it through the like title screen on the DVD to press play.
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And we had to go back like a year later and try and watch it again. And we got through it. but it terrified me for a year, just the title screen. Well, it's it's scary. I mean, the ring is scary, even even the just the American version. is Right. yeah It really is.
00:02:29
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Scary imagery. But it sounds like it put you on a path, so that's a good thing.
Language and Representation in Disability
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ah truly did. Now, getting into movies, um I actually want to talk about the way that dwarfism is portrayed in films. Yeah.
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I know that that's like an all day topic. Definitely. Well, I think I only realized recently that it is not acceptable to call a person a dwarf.
00:02:58
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I'm sorry. Please go ahead. um I think it depends truly on the person with that. because dwarf dwarfism and dwarf is the medical terminology that we use.
00:03:11
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So I think people are starting to move away from it only because of the way it has been used um to kind of portray us as that fantasy character.
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um And because people are so unsure about what to call us, I think people are trying to move more towards one term, little person, ah to kind of remove that gray area.
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And that's a thing that happens with a lot of marginalized demographics is that a word will start to evolve linguistically. Like, it will mean something different because maybe because bigots are using it like as an insult or because...
00:03:52
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of of other factors, but like, you know, it used to be okay to say that person's disabled. And now there are people that don't want us to say that. um I know person-centered language is a thing in ah in mental health circles. Like you don't say, i'm a I'm bipolar. You say, I'm a person with bipolar disorder, as opposed to defining yourself by any one condition that you might have.
00:04:15
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Right. um That's definitely ah pretty controversial topic in the little little people community. ah But we talk about it a lot, and I think a lot of us feel okay with both person-first and identity-first language.
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But I think that the reason why a lot of disability groups are moving away from person-first language is because we are seen as our identity-first. ah We are treated as our identity-first. That impacts the way we interact with society and the way society interacts with us.
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And so... the whole person first movement, while it started as um a way to try and humanize us before seeing us as our disability, it's not really aligning with how reality is for us. So I think a lot of people are at the point where they want to acknowledge the fact that our identity is such in important part of our lives.
Misunderstandings and Advocacy Challenges
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Is it a futile gesture to try and get everyone in a given demographic to agree on anything?
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I guess to an extent, especially the smaller the demographic, like the little people community is very close knit and very, we we see each other frequently and talk frequently and we try to expand and get to know ah new families and things like that and throughout different countries. So with us, we have these conversations a lot and intimately in our circles.
00:05:53
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And I think that sometimes, like with dwarfism, we are still at the point where we are still trying to teach people the basics of what dwarfism is.
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And i think that sometimes it is important for us to agree on some terminologies and some explanations of things so that we can combat the misinformation that is out there about us. Because most of the information that exists publicly and more known about dwarfism is misinformation.
00:06:27
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So a lot of times we're were having to teach people to unlearn things that they've learned. And that can be really difficult. So it can also be really difficult to get us all to agree on how to explain that.
00:06:43
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do think... Oh, sorry. Oh, no, no, please. I interrupted you. I'm sorry. I'm so mad with that. Me too. um I was just going to say that ah I do think that every person has a right to be called what they want to be called.
00:06:58
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um So it's definitely a slippery slope. Totally. Totally. Well, and I think like Peter Dinklage, for example, um as like as a character refers to himself as a dwarf on on Game of Thrones.
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So I think that that alone made it so that everyone thought that that was an okay thing to do. But the thing about Game of Thrones is that there's also like shadow assassins and dragons and slavery. and ah I mean, it's not a how-to manual.
00:07:32
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Right, exactly. Personally, I don't mind being called a dwarf just because I know that it is a scientific term. But I think a lot of people talk, I think a lot of people's problem is that, one, there's a different way of spelling it. Sometimes people say like dwarves and they spell it with the V-E um as the fantasy creature.
00:07:57
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And I don't know, it's just, it's definitely a complicated subject. And it definitely goes by a person by person basis. Okay. All right. I'm kind of embarrassed to say this word in front of you so ostensibly, but the word midget, yet no one should be using that word, right? Yes, definitely.
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That's something that we always tell people first. Like that is a slur. It was used during the circus freak show days um as a classification for us. And at first, this is another explanation of how language has changed. Another example of it.
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um At first, it was the word that was used to bring little people together in communities. um But we've grown from that because it's just been used so derogatory, to derogatorily towards us for decades.
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Well, and it's a word that people use without even realizing that it's rude. People will playfully call their children that or any short person, you know, like they think they're being very witty.
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And folks, slurs are not witty. you're You're not witty if you're using a slur. right wit Wit is about punching up nuts. and any other direction but up.
Media Representation and Impact
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Agreed. And it takes more skill to punch up. good Yeah. Yeah. Yes. that's That's why once you start punching down, people think you're a bad comedian and because it's so lazy.
00:09:26
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Right. And um growing up, I always had people asking me, like, are you sure or are you a midget? Or like, have dwarfism or are you a midget? Like a lot of people think dwarfism is one thing.
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And being a midget is another thing. Yeah, I thought that. I mean, all I really knew as a kid about dwarfism was, you know, Billy Barty and and David Rappaport. That's that's what I knew about, you know, that.
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Right. Yeah, exactly. And that's why that representation matters so much for us um as such a small community. Well, and I asked you in the pre-interview questionnaire whether or not you have a favorite Billy Barty movie. And I kind of assumed that you might, even though you're very young.
00:10:11
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And then it occurs to me like, damn, that was really offensive. but Honestly, no. Well, the thing is, people ask me if I've seen like everything Melissa McCarthy has ever done because they assume that if there's a fat person in movies that I'm going to go see it.
00:10:26
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And of course that's true to a point. Right. Yes, I agree. That is true to a point. Like, I'm over here watching all these reality TV shows that I don't want to watch because I'm like, I have to keep up with what they're saying about little people.
00:10:40
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But, um yeah, I really haven't. For further reference, um the best Billy Barty movie is called Foul Play. All right. And it's from the 70s. And it also has this like weird distinction of being a movie in which Chevy Chase is portrayed as attractive. He is the romantic lead in that movie.
00:10:59
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That's awesome. I love that. It's wild. he's well he's Goldie Hawn is the woman in that movie. Oh, okay. you know She was unstoppably beautiful back in the day. i mean, she's still quite beautiful now. Seriously. I was going to say, sounds like it.
00:11:13
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Yeah. I feel like a lot of little people my age probably have seen many Billy Barty movies. And I feel like my parents would be like, what? Why have you not watched any? But yes, I just, I don't know. I have not.
00:11:28
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But I definitely know about Billy Barty, of course, um from him starting our organization and bringing us all together. so And what organization is that? ah That would be Little People of America.
00:11:40
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And that's our organization that um it's it's basically a community group and it brings people together from all over the country and even from outside the country ah to get medical resources, see specialists, to get social resources, just everything like that. It's a life-saving organization for sure.
00:12:06
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Wow. Okay. yeah Now, again, my my knowledge of of people with dwarfism comes from, um you know, actors. Warwick Davis, Dakelage, Kenny Baker, Vern Troyer.
00:12:20
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i You know, I'm i'm old, so Herve Billachet was part of my deal growing up. um No women. not Not a one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would definitely say i feel like a lot of that has to do with the fetishizing aspect and about how maybe they just don't want to see little people, women in stories unless it's under a fetish lens. And that doesn't always hit the big screen on the same level.
00:12:53
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Well, now I'm reminded of, ah of on l L.A. Law, you know, there was a ah ah dwarf lawyer, David Rapoport played him. Yes. And he ah went on a double date with Victor Sifuentes and he brought a call girl with him.
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And Sifuentes was like, well, okay, but why would you get ah a tall person to to be a call girl? Right. he said it's far too difficult to find a female dwarf call girl. As far as he knows, there were only three in the world.
00:13:22
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Oh, yep. yeah You know, I was like a teenager when I saw that. And it just made me think of a bajillion different things. Like, wow, I had never considered any of that.
00:13:33
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Yeah, we learn really, really young. um Anyone who presents as female ah growing up with dwarfism, we learn very young what the red flags are for fetishizing and um taking advantage of us. And so I think a lot of people already have a guard and wall up for that kind of thing and they might be less likely to put themselves in situations where that could happen.
00:14:02
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Yikes. That is really scary. Yeah, definitely. um Okay, I'm looking over my questions right now. um You mentioned dwarfism as a disability. Is that the predominant thinking that it is a ah type of disability because like it causes physical issues?
00:14:21
Speaker
um I would say that's another controversial subject, but leaning towards, yes, most people think dwarfism is a disability. And I don't know why it's controversial, because scientifically, medically, it is a disability.
00:14:37
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um I think this comes from when we were first starting to kind of advocate for advocate for ourselves as a community, we would say things like, Oh, we're just short and that's it because we were trying to say like, oh, we're just like you. We just have height difference.
00:14:53
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But the truth is no single person with dwarfism is just short and that's it across all hundreds of types that exist. ah All dwarfism comes with skeletal issues, muscular issues, what have you, depending on the type, um because it is a skeletal dysplasia. And so dwarfism is what happens when your skeleton does not develop properly.
00:15:20
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So there's no way that can happen and you wouldn't have issues like arthritis, spinal issues, joint issues, ah things like that. And a lot of other things.
00:15:31
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are also impacted by the different forms of dwarfism. Like my form, for example, is called, we call it SEDC for short. It's a mutation of my collagen.
00:15:45
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So I also have eyesight issues and things like that that come along with collagen disorders. So um dwarfism is definitely a disability and what makes a person disabled is how well you are able to navigate the world.
00:16:03
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And so the more and more accessibility is taken away from us, the more and more disabled we will be and are. Wow. Okay.
Transitioning and Healthcare Challenges
00:16:15
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Yeah. That's rough. um Yeah.
00:16:19
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and And right now, it must be such an increasingly difficult time because so many people are flipping out about DEI. Yep. It definitely is. It's stressful.
00:16:31
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Now you're also undergoing hormone therapy because you are transitioning. Yes, I am. Are there specific concerns that dwarfism um interacts with that? I mean, like, I don't even know how to phrase the question. No, no, you're right.
00:16:45
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You're valid. I had the same question myself when I started and i was looking around and I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't find anyone who has done testosterone.
00:16:56
Speaker
And now, um, two years into my transition transition, I have met people at this point. But um honestly, there is no research. um For a lot of it, I am, i don't want to say guinea pig, but that's basically what I am.
00:17:16
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ah But I'm fine with that because if I didn't transition, I was not living a sustainable life. So it was either suffer or take the risk.
00:17:27
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And I'm two years in and I haven't had anything out of the ordinary. That's not typical for what they've seen from testosterone um hormone transition therapy. So yeah, I'm doing good and I'm loving life. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:44
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and yeah yeah And it's been awesome to meet other people from sharing my experience with that and find out that I'm not the only one. Wow. Yeah.
00:17:56
Speaker
So, I mean, i i know your parents, but um is this... I'm um' wondering, like, I'm sure that they were, you know, loving and supportive just because yeah I know what kind of people they are. But ah apart from that, like outside of your home of origin, what what is... I mean...
00:18:15
Speaker
Again, I'm not sure how to phrase the the question, but it seems like that's a lot. That is a lot to be going on with. It is. It's a lot.
00:18:26
Speaker
And no, you're good because sometimes when people ask that question, they phrase it as like, why would you add more struggle onto your life? Well, no, you got to live authentically. that's Exactly. Anything that's not authentic is an increased struggle.
00:18:39
Speaker
Right. And that's how, exactly. So that's how people, some people see it and But for me, I'm like, no, I took struggle off my life by transitioning Yeah, hiding is never the way to go. Right, exactly.
00:18:51
Speaker
So yeah, it it definitely is tough to be part of those two groups, especially right now when disabled people and trans people are under such heavy attack.
00:19:02
Speaker
But also, it's beautiful because I have made such a large and strong support system that I'm like, I would have never been able to have this without...
00:19:16
Speaker
living authentically and with pride. Right on. Yeah, I maintain that the reason that the broligarchy is screwing with our social media is because they know the power of community.
00:19:29
Speaker
Yes, I actually posted about that on TikTok. I agree with that completely. Yeah, I mean, and it's not, I mean, at first it was like, okay, well, Elon Musk is having a temper tantrum, go figure.
00:19:41
Speaker
Oh, no, Mr. Entitled isn't having the whole world bend to his whim. How awful. He better buy it. But then when Zuckerberg was, i mean...
00:19:52
Speaker
Zuckerberg slays me because it's like he doesn't know that we know what Facebook was made for in the first place. Right. You know, because I'm a sex writer. And when I work the page from work, I get dinged all the time. Oh, you're talking about sex.
00:20:07
Speaker
Like, dude, this entire website was made so that dude bros at some fancy ass school could so could like let each other know which hot girls were DTF.
00:20:19
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like That's what Facebook is for. So to turn around and be like, oh, nipples. Oh, my goodness. Oh, I'm having the vapors. Fuck you, man. Exactly. You're not protecting people. You're wielding your power like every other white boy dude.
00:20:34
Speaker
were Excuse me. I better stop that. but No, literally, though. It's all about censorship. It really is. Yeah, and it's it's baffling. I mean, i if you if you say cis on Twitter, they'll they'll like shut your post down and not let anybody see it. The word cis.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yes, and yeah. You have censor it. It's aggravating. Well, I heard a rumor, and this is a rumor, so I'm presenting it as a rumor not a fact. But like I guess a lot of Elon Musk's kids were made in a lab. Yeah.
00:21:08
Speaker
I can't speak to the validity that. But what I heard is that like he is paying extra to have male children because he thinks that's important.
00:21:19
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And that's why he's so salty that one of his kids is trans. Yeah, I would really not put eugenics above him. No, exactly. yeah like that but But he's from slavery money.
00:21:31
Speaker
yeah Surely a guy who benefited from apartheid isn't going to do something all weird and fucked up like that. would think. May Musk seems so nice. Oh my god. No, I really feel for his trans daughter, though. And ah it's um my god she's so funny. Do you? Yes, she is wonderful.
00:21:50
Speaker
Yeah, she is. She's funny. And she says it like it is. And I love that. It's always great when the kids of bad people come out and are like, ahem, no.
00:22:00
Speaker
yeah Because, you know, Kellyanne Conway had that daughter who did that, and she just cracked me up. That was amazing. I remember that. And did you even see hit the ex, the little baby, all the things he's been saying in the office and whatnot? Well, I he told Donald Trump he's not the president. He needs to go sit down or whatever. I've been calling that kid Kevlar, but I guess that's rude.
00:22:22
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um that limp That clip kills me of him. well And the thing that's so funny is that I don't know if you know, but I have like a special interest in Don Jr. So I got to tell Don Jr., hey, look at that toddler standing up to your dad. Right. But you wish you had the spine of a toddler.
00:22:39
Speaker
Oh, my God. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, he's a very bad man. Yes, he really is. And I spent a long time thinking that Don Jr. was not a very bad man. Right.
00:22:52
Speaker
So now I feel stupid and I'm mad about it. I get it. We think we can save them, but sometimes you just can't. It's that that nature and the nurture. Well, you know, it's this whole thing with...
00:23:06
Speaker
I mean, I'm sure it's difficult to go from being rich to not being
Community and Representation
00:23:11
Speaker
rich. Like, I'm sure that's a thing. Right. So if you are used to being rich and protected, yeah, it probably sucks to suddenly be like, oh, no, I might have to get a job like a person.
00:23:22
Speaker
Right. But weaker men have done far more with far less. i agree. And it's funny because I was just ah talking to some some of my British friends online about Camilla and Like i I refer to Camilla as the patron saint of mistresses because it's like, see, you wait and you wait and you wait and you wait. And then when you're really, really, really old, you get the guy you wanted.
00:23:46
Speaker
yeahp And it's so sad and gross and everything because, you know, don't don't sleep with married men. But anyway, just drama.
00:23:56
Speaker
Well, but the thing about it is there are people that want to argue, well, Charles was in an impossible decision. And did like, oh, no he might have only been a Duke if he walked away and...
00:24:08
Speaker
Like, oh, no, he would have slightly less whatever you get for being part of the British monarchy. As far as I can tell, it's a bunch of dumb hats and a lot of parades and whatnot. I don't really see any appeal.
00:24:20
Speaker
That's the thing is they're always like, I'm losing it all. And it's like, OK, but your rock bottom is still like my sunny day. Right, right. Well, and someone I like have never talked to a day in my life was like, well, I guess you should feel lucky that like you can and make your own choice. I'm like, bitch, my family of origin has not said friggin word to me.
00:24:43
Speaker
Right. Since they found out I was engaged to a black guy. Right. You know, i mean, we were that that wasn't like the first thing that ever like split us apart. But right. But it for heaven's sake, it's like, yeah, sometimes making a choice has consequences.
00:25:00
Speaker
It's not an excuse to be a coward. And yeah, That seems to be the overarching theme in American politics right now is that there are cowards goddamn everywhere. People with power, with money, who would be safe even after taking a stand, and they still don't do it.
00:25:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. ah And that's what's frustrating is then there's all these people like us on the ground floor saying all these things and risking our jobs, risking our friendships, our family relationships, and they're just like, you guys are the threat.
00:25:35
Speaker
And all these comfortable ass people that are like, oh, maybe we should just vote with Maga. Well, maybe you fucking shouldn't. Yeah. You know, John Fetterman can blow me. Oh, God.
00:25:47
Speaker
Like, I am going to have a penis attached to my body specifically so he can blow it. Yes, exactly. That's how mad I am. I know. I get so fired up about it ah So, um it is not a good time to be transitioning in America, but you are in ah a relatively blue state. Yes.
00:26:09
Speaker
Has your experience in terms of... um you know, like the red tape, like, are you having trouble seeing your doctor? Are you able to afford the things that you need? That sort of thing. How, how's the system treating you?
00:26:22
Speaker
Um, for me, since I am 26 and well over 19, 18, um, and I haven't had many changes. my med prices, like my hormone prices have gone up, but I don't know if that's just because of the new year. And I've also changed insurances. I don't know if it's gone into that.
00:26:41
Speaker
But I have had um a lot of friends that have been dealing with things like ah coverage for their hormones, cost of their hormones.
00:26:53
Speaker
I know people that are 19 and under that are having trouble. getting access to their hormones, even though they've been on them. And that's really tough because going off your hormones, cold turkey, is really hard to do. Anyone who has natural hormone imbalances knows how much it sucks. And to have your system go from one end to the other that drastically, it can really throw your your mental and physical health through a loop. And to think about the fact that adults are putting young
00:27:27
Speaker
like young adults and older teens through these things, it's just like, why? What are you gaining from this? Causing them pain and health problems. like Well, and the thing about that is, and I know just for mental health meds, that stopping them suddenly and and things about hormones, I mean, like, that's a joke.
00:27:45
Speaker
You know, when someone is acting out, one of the things someone might say is, what are you, hormonal? Yep. Hormones are not a joke. They're ah they were a big deal. yeah And yet when kids, when anyone has their medication mixed with, they're still expected to like be polite and go to school and sit still and do their jobs and drive and do like all these different things that they may or may not be capable of doing. yeah And yet people don't want to recognize what an enormous struggle and issue that can be.
00:28:15
Speaker
Yes, exactly. and i completely agree. And then not only that, but then these like teenagers, they're they're thinking that they're never going to get this again. there's they're thinking all or nothing. They're having that scarcity ah mindset because that's all they've known because they haven't been able to get into that adulthood, building your family and your community and your support and your medical team.
00:28:43
Speaker
So it's just really scary to think about. having the physical effects of um hormonal changes as well as the external effects of having your life-saving medication taken from you.
00:28:59
Speaker
Because a lot of trans people say that our hormones are mood stabilizers for us because how I see my testosterone is that it it changed my life because it gave me the ability to live my life without...
00:29:15
Speaker
the lens of insecurity that I had before. So before ah almost all of my actions, my thoughts, my perceptions of things were based in how insecure I was about myself.
00:29:26
Speaker
And now that I'm starting to feel love about the way I look, the way I feel, the way I'm presenting, I approach things so much, different so way differently than I did before.
00:29:40
Speaker
And so when I go off my hormones for different reasons, I start to get all emotional and irritable and all those things. And I just really fear for people who don't have the coping skills, the support, the resources to get through that period.
00:29:58
Speaker
Well, yeah. And then when that's coupled with the tearing down of, of support structures and people, you know, like Zuckerberg recently made it okay to tell trans people that they're mentally ill, that like that fits in with community guidelines to which a lot of people said, oops, this is clearly not my community.
00:30:17
Speaker
Right. Um, yeah Which is a shame. And, you know, it really like there is part of the MAGA psyche that MAGA people get really angry if they don't find you attractive and and just like them.
00:30:35
Speaker
They're mad if you're happy. That's what i I always say that they look at themselves and they're like, how do I fit the standard of what society wants at in a conventionally attractive person? Yeah, I have so much self-hatred.
00:30:51
Speaker
But then they look at me and they they literally think, because they say this comment on all my videos all the time, they literally think, how low can life get? and But then they see me happy.
00:31:03
Speaker
They see me with relationships. They see me with friends. They see me successful in my career. They see me getting degrees. And they're like, how? And so that's that's what makes them so mad. And that's honestly a reflection of them. And it has nothing to do with me.
00:31:18
Speaker
so Well, and that's that's another thing that MAGA is doing right now. you know They went through the Arlington website and took out all the accomplishments of people who are Black.
00:31:30
Speaker
who are ah brown, who are Hispanic, all the women, you know, people who are Jewish, people who are gay. um but We would have found out later about most of those because, you know, was back when gay people weren't supposed to serve.
00:31:43
Speaker
head on Don't ask, don't tell.
00:31:46
Speaker
but But that's the thing. They don't want people to have role models because they know. They know representation is important and that's why they don't want everyone to have it. They want their kids to have it and that's all. yeah you know it's and it's just this whole... and i what One of the things that I try to do here is just to point out that like yes, these are big sweeping things that are like...
00:32:11
Speaker
You know, they they go across these wide swathe demographics of the country, but the people, the individual people that are being hurt by this. You know, these are not numbers. They're human beings that when you say, you know, hey, we're not going to we're going to jail people if they take their trans kids to a doctor. Right.
00:32:32
Speaker
My buddy had to send his kids out of state to live with his ex because he couldn't take one of his kids to the doctor without the risk of jail. Yeah. I mean, that's obscene.
00:32:44
Speaker
it really is. It truly is. And it's just like.
00:32:50
Speaker
that' Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, and that's why going back to talking about how they're trying to censor social media to ah go with their specific morals.
00:33:03
Speaker
um It's because of how we we are able to build communities that are so strong and we're able to share our stories while they're erasing history.
00:33:14
Speaker
We're able to connect with other people in our area. We're able to share resources and answers to questions that we have about things that we're going through. and Without that, we're able, they're able to just keep us hidden in the shadows, just like they used to back when ugly laws were a thing.
00:33:35
Speaker
And disabled people and people who were different weren't allowed to be in public without disgusting people. It's just really frustrating. Well, and the thing is that like Disney has hopped on that train. Mm-hmm.
00:33:50
Speaker
And boy, am I mad about it. Like, I've always had issues with Disney because, you know, I think a lot of like the Disney philosophy is everyone is exactly what they look like. No surprises.
00:34:01
Speaker
yeah The only time there's a surprise is if they're evil and they're hiding and they're tricking someone. You know, but Disney, like, I don't know if you read any of my stuff for culturists. I've been writing for culturists. Yeah.
00:34:12
Speaker
And I just wrote up that they canceled the Princess Tiana series, which was their first black princess ever, like almost 100 years of programming over 80 years and like 100 and some movies.
00:34:25
Speaker
Finally, one black princess and she was going to get a show. And they were like, actually, no, let's not do that. ah And there was going to be a Moana show for a while. And they just shortened it to like a second feature film.
00:34:37
Speaker
And then that was it. And then. They had a trans character that was supposed to be on their new show, a Win or Lose. That show had a trans character. And they hired a trans actress to play her and kept the actress and then, like, cis-washed the role. So there is not a trans child.
00:34:56
Speaker
But there was a child on the show that was praying to Heavenly Father. Oh, my. It's always... Yep, it's always... So they're not fucking around over there. They're full MAGA. And it's just gross because, yes, obviously Disney a company, so their job is to, like, make money for shareholders or whatever, but...
00:35:14
Speaker
I mean, the cultural impact of what Disney does is insane. It's huge and unstoppable, and they know that. Yep. So when they're all like, oh, well, we want to give parents a chance to talk about serious issues with their kids.
00:35:30
Speaker
Like, dude, you have parents die in the open of like half your movies. Every movie. Okay. There's one parent dead. Let's not say like right I mean, you know, like like Cinderella is not, you know like, I don't know. it's the They're such liars. It's so disingenuous. And that is one of the more frustrating things about it. It's like, oh, no, we're just innocently giving parents a choice on this one issue and just this one. Mm-hmm.
00:36:00
Speaker
So yeah it really bums me out. but Well, you work with kids. I mean, what do you think the impact of that is? I was going to say, and i the fact that Disney is geared towards children and they're always talking about how trans people and queer people are child groomers, yet all they do is push their agendas on their children's networks and in their
Language Evolution and Societal Accountability
00:36:22
Speaker
classrooms. And yet we can't even talk about our own personal lives without being...
00:36:28
Speaker
threatened to be put on a child grooming list. So I just think that's crazy. And Disney is very impactful. um Mickey Mouse is everywhere. Mickey and Minnie are everywhere. Every child knows Mickey and Minnie, aside from Elsa, all the princesses, all that.
00:36:46
Speaker
And I think it's really funny that they are removing Tiana and Princess and the Frog because a lot of Black people have an issue with that movie because Tiana is Black for like three seconds of the movie before she turns to a frog.
00:37:00
Speaker
And then she's a frog for like 85% of the movie. So the fact that they couldn't even have her be Black on screen for 15 minutes is really insulting, disrespectful, and...
00:37:15
Speaker
dis and genuineu just like you said. and that's That's that weird segregation that happens. like if you You should have ah a Black person in your movie because of representation, but once the Black person is the lead, then it's a Black movie.
00:37:29
Speaker
It can't be just a movie anymore. Right, right, exactly. And that's because you only have two movies with Black characters. If it was a normal thing, we wouldn't think twice about it.
00:37:44
Speaker
Like, wait, I have to ask if you're including Song of the South in that. don so Song of the what? Sorry. Song of the South. ah Oh, are you not familiar with Disney's Song of the South? No.
00:37:57
Speaker
Well, it is a black-led movie, and it's Uncle Remus, and he's talking about tar babies and whatnot. Oh, God. Wait, actually, I think I have seen that when I was a kid.
00:38:09
Speaker
Probably. It was vaulted for the longest time because people said, finally someone said, hey, wait a minute. Yeah. ah Why are we showing this to children? Yeah. When I was a kid, ah Fantasia still had Sunflower, the slave horse. Right.
00:38:26
Speaker
And it's one of those things. I mean, Little Mermaid was in the 90s and they had that like Al Jowelson blackfish thing. You know, the jet black fish with the big red lips.
00:38:37
Speaker
um yeah Yeah, that I mean, Disney not long ago at all. No, no, I was i was in college for a little more. Exactly. And that's why it's like, um everyone's like, oh, my gosh, as soon as they remove DEI, people are all these big companies are pulling back and those of us are bad.
00:38:55
Speaker
have been in these groups that have been represented this way. We're like, yeah, shocker. They were still making jokes about us up until last night. Like, yeahp yeah, pretty much every time I go and watch a movie that I used to like, there is a midget or dwarf joke or a trans joke.
00:39:13
Speaker
And or sometimes both. And I'm always shocked. I'm like, oh, my gosh, that was in there. i mean, the MCU, the very first Iron Man movie yeah has jokes that and I mean, I want to say.
00:39:27
Speaker
No, I don't. I'm trying to think if they actually use the word tranny, but I don't think they did. I think they just said, you know, you were with so and so and they were a man. So they basically called a a yeah either.
00:39:38
Speaker
either a drag performer or a trans woman, a man. And we don't know which it is. but ah Just something, yeah. I swear. yeah They have it in everything.
00:39:50
Speaker
I can't think of a specific example, but they'll they'll either have a little joke or they'll have someone, like a male character dressing up as a woman for it to be the butt of the joke or to be crazy or something like that.
00:40:03
Speaker
Or they'll be like, they'll say something like, why do you Why are you dressed like a man? I don't know. There's always something. And I know for other communities, that's true as well, because it all falls under the white supremacy umbrella. And that's just what's so ingrained in our society.
00:40:22
Speaker
Like I'm unlearned. I'm even learning unlearning white supremacy. We're all unlearning white supremacy every day. I'm unlearning ableism every day because like we've talked about this whole time, language is changing.
00:40:35
Speaker
We're learning more information about each other, about the world, about our impact in the world every day. So we have to, as a society and as people, take accountability and understand that sometimes we were wrong and now it's time to grow so we can help everyone.
00:40:56
Speaker
Yeah, um I was a teenager in the 80s. And comedy movies in the 80s? Oh, God. Yeah, it's it's pretty embarrassing now to look back because I was in my 30s when an Asian man explained to me why he did not like the movie 16 candles.
00:41:17
Speaker
Cause I was like, what, why? oh wait, I know why you don't like it because the leading male sets his ex-girlfriend up to be assaulted sexually by Anthony Michael Hall's character.
00:41:28
Speaker
So maybe that's why you don't like it. And he actually had to explain to me that he was growing up an Asian boy in ah in a white high school, When that movie was out and there was a character called Long Duck Dong and he was an exchange student.
00:41:43
Speaker
And I don't know if you're familiar with that at all, but it is real, real, real racist. Sounds sounds like it. And I just didn't. Oh, no. I mean, like, yeah. Stereotypical accent. Well, Ken Watanabe.
00:41:57
Speaker
all Right. Who is kind of known for playing those kinds of roles and taking a lot of shit from the Asian Asian community and just saying like, hey, man, I just wanted to be an actor. And that's what I was hired for. So, yeah you know, and and it's a tough call. I mean, if you've always dreamed to be an actor, it's not my business to tell you that you shouldn't.
00:42:19
Speaker
Right, right. And that's why we have to really work to fix the system surrounding. Because yeah, like, like you said, you were 30 years old, but that's all there was of Asian representation at that time.
00:42:34
Speaker
Like, well, there was more. just didn't go looking for it. Because I wasn't thinking about it. And didn't, you know, love that. I love that you acknowledge that. And a great point. Yeah, I definitely had opportunities to know more than I did. I was raised by, um you know, rednecky conservative types, you know, that thought, you know, charity was stupid and you didn't want too much fancy book learning because how would I land a husband that way? And, you know, all the traditional things to say to me, I'm too smart for my own good.
00:43:07
Speaker
Right. That's always how I felt too. yeah Okay. Yeah. um But yeah, like that's the thing about like when you grow up.
00:43:18
Speaker
and I mean, if something's in a movie, you see it in a movie theater, everyone's laughing at it, so it seems very normal. And it literally normalizes humor that is cruel, humor that is ignorant.
00:43:32
Speaker
And the thing is that the reason that... MAGA philosophy I think is so widespread isn't because people are having their minds changed it's because they're seeing these things being normalized and being like yes I've been saying that for so long those people are weird why should I have to look at them like you know and it's like we were saying it's it's about the community and if the community standards are suddenly that we're all going to collectively be assholes to people we don't like yeah well
00:44:06
Speaker
I want to say who the people are that we don't like. Right. oh and So like, but what do we do about it? I mean, you're an activist. What, what are you doing to, to make things better?
00:44:19
Speaker
um I am just educating people on what dwarfism is, um what being trans is. And I'm sharing my story because apparently people need to know They need to know the intimacy of it. They need to know someone. They need to be able to relate.
00:44:38
Speaker
I just try you really show who I am and show... that maybe you would like me if you stopped listening to all the fear mongering and the brainwashing and the misinformation that's out there.
Education and Cultural History
00:44:53
Speaker
Or if you let me teach you something about history, because when we're talking about repeating history, that's what's happening. And you' you're like, these things have been said forever now.
00:45:05
Speaker
And now they're just louder. And we fought these things before. We can fight them again. ah But we just need people to know our history in order to have the motivation and to know to get past the shock and awe of it all and know that there is something we can do. We can use our voices and they do matter.
00:45:28
Speaker
calling people to call their representatives, calling people to protest, speaking out on social media, um speaking out in your interpersonal conversations in your daily life, all of those things, they matter.
00:45:44
Speaker
And ah the representation that we have in media, it directly influences the way people treat us. We hear comments about things that are on TV all the time from strangers on the street. And we get compared to Peter Dinklage all the time on the street.
00:46:01
Speaker
And some of us have no similar characteristics to Peter Dinklage except height and the fact that we have dwarfism, even though it's a completely different type sometimes. Wait, wait. you You drink and you know things. Come on. Yeah, exactly. That's true. I do relate to him on that one. And I do have a little bit of a curly, shaggy haircut.
00:46:21
Speaker
But no, honestly, though, it's like... We just need to educate people on history, on who we are, on our stories. I really, I'm always encouraging people as they're comfortable to share their stories, because I think that's how you ensure that history is never erased and keep culture alive.
00:46:48
Speaker
Yes. Now, i I completely agree with that. I want to draw attention to one thing you said, which is as you are comfortable. Yes. and And as an addendum to that, as you are safe.
00:47:00
Speaker
Because we know that trans people, for example, it's not always safe to come out. no. and i think that whenever we talk about the opportunity and the responsibility that people in invulnerable demographics have to make their stories heard.
00:47:20
Speaker
We have to, at the same time, acknowledge, and i don't want to suggest that you weren't doing that. I'm just no giving it some voice because it's a podcast. No, right. and This is you. But that ah mass that no one should feel obligated to be a representative of a demographic just because they're part of it.
00:47:37
Speaker
Yes. You know, and like, because I was I was kind of apprehensive about this interview, because, you know, even though I know you a little bit outside this, I try to give a perspective that is helpful to someone who knows nothing about the topic, which kind of leads to questions that can make you feel like I'm asking you to like be an ambassador for people with dwarfism. Right.
00:48:02
Speaker
And then I was like, oh, you like Billy Barty, right? <unk> so good And I was like, oops, I haven't seen anything. I take away my dwarf card. Wait, there's a dwarf card? No, but we should. are I don't know. we We should make one.
00:48:17
Speaker
Right. I have a woman card. I got from Hillary. Oh, my gosh. Wait, I remember that. Yeah. i have a Well, I have a Little People of America membership card, so I'll take that. You literally have.
00:48:30
Speaker
I love it. No, but of what was what was the point before that? about Oh, as you're safe. Yes, I completely agree with that. And that's why those of us who have been able, i always call my level of support group that I've built a privilege. Like I feel privileged every day to know that no matter what, I always have someone who's going to have my back, even if that's holding me accountable and telling helping me grow.
00:48:57
Speaker
um I have built this community and I'm so privileged for that. And I think those of us who have that, that are able to speak out, we have to do so for people that aren't able to.
00:49:11
Speaker
I speak out for like trans kids because they, kids in general have absolutely no rights that are their own.
00:49:22
Speaker
And then trans kids, marginalized kids, they have even less. So I, we can't expect them to come and share their stories about how all these things being taken away from them feels.
00:49:34
Speaker
And so we have to listen to the adults that are able to share how it would feel for us if we were in their position back then. And yeah, I just think it's really important um to listen to people as they speak to share when you can. And then also growing up this growing up visibly disabled, a lot of people don't understand that you are like walking, talking advocacy, walking, talking teacher. And that's any visible difference because like even something as simple as going to the grocery store and shopping, that's someone saying, oh my gosh, little people go to the grocery store store and shop.
00:50:21
Speaker
Oh my gosh, little people can push a shopping cart. So we kind of grow up like answering these redundant questions and teaching people and it is very exhausting.
00:50:33
Speaker
So you have to, you have to like weigh your pros and cons and weigh where you're at at that time. ah But there's a lot of times that ah most of us are more than willing to answer questions as long as the person respects us as a human being. And that, and we can always tell when you don't.
00:50:52
Speaker
And we can always tell when somebody is trying to bait us with curiosity just to come back and dehumanize us or preach eugenics.
00:51:04
Speaker
But you work with students um and you work with young kids. But what I'm wondering is if you've got students who are in a marginalized demographic, um do you have any input on how they can best advocate for themselves, like in a school environment?
00:51:20
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yes, I do. I have had um and do have students from marginalized demographics. um I would say how they can advocate for themselves or how educators can advocate for them.
00:51:37
Speaker
which Which are you asking? um I guess how students can advocate for themselves, but then also like what happens if they voice their needs clearly and are not heard. Like,
00:51:50
Speaker
What recourse is there? i mean, we're we could be straight up losing the Department of Education, yes which is terrifying. Yes, it is. In terms of marginalized kids in particular, because that's who's supposed to catch everybody that falls through the cracks. Exactly. It will hit them first and then trickle up.
00:52:09
Speaker
Yeah. um I can't even... I truly can't even imagine being in school right now because it was already so hard for me as a disabled kid who used IEP and 504 services to get those enforced, even though they are law and once they're in place, they have to be followed.
00:52:28
Speaker
And so now them removing these laws, pausing all this funding, And appointing a woman who has absolutely no history and education and experience.
00:52:42
Speaker
You know, and it's funny because i I said at the time, well, my God, it can't be worse than Betsy DeVos. Literally. we And shut my mouth because it certainly is. Yep. Yep.
00:52:55
Speaker
I, yep. We definitely... do not support Betsy DeVos in this house. And we definitely thought it couldn't get worse until Linda McMahon. But yeah, it's really frustrating because if you don't have education experience, um you don't know what supports would benefit children in the classroom. I don't know how you would. um It's different than the supports that would benefit a child at home.
00:53:26
Speaker
They may overlap, but they're not the same. And i think a way that kids can advocate for advocate for themselves is just to try and build their community um with their peers to find people like them, to look out for ah community and social organizations or events that might help them build community.
00:53:54
Speaker
Because honestly, sometimes you just have to get through it. um you As a kid, it's really hard to get educated on special education law. And for me, I was lucky because I had not only um parents that were very educated and well-versed on special education law, but also i had the Little People of America organization who had um people ah parent coordinators who could help us advocate for ourselves.
00:54:25
Speaker
um And so with all that being taken away from the federal government, it's I don't know. It's very dark and dismal and there's definitely a sense of impending doom, but all I know is that the adults are still fighting to keep these protections in place so that we can cite the law and say, this is the law.
00:54:49
Speaker
Um, you need to follow these things and accommodate me so that I can reach my potential in school.
00:54:57
Speaker
Right. Okay. Yeah. all All of that makes sense. Yeah. um it It is so scary. Like, i I feel fortunate that I am not a teacher because that yeah that's what my mom wanted me to get into. And I said, I don't know. i don't know if that's... It seems real corporate-y.
00:55:15
Speaker
Yeah, and that was me too. Yeah. um Now, I want to actually, on a more cheerful note, what do you love best about teaching pre-K?
00:55:27
Speaker
um Oh, my gosh. I love so much about teaching pre-K. Yeah. I really love that we're teaching them the foundations of life. Like, yeah, we're teaching them the alphabet and numbers, but we're also teaching them how to wash their hands, how to blow their nose, how to take off take off their coat and unzip zip and unzip it, how to change their shoes, how to identify their name, um identify themselves in pictures. Like we're teaching them all the things that it is...
00:56:00
Speaker
to function in daily life. And they're just so entertaining. It's just so fun to watch them experience things that we take for granted for the first time. Like one day I lined all my students up for the drinking fountain and with each kid that tried the drinking fountain, I was like, I had to add on more directions because I didn't think not to say, oh don't put your entire mouth over the thing or don't just stick your tongue out and try to link the stream. You have to drink like a straw and then they're trying to put their mouth on the hole and I'll And it was just hilarious because, you know, these are things that we just do second nature now, now years later, but they're learning for the first time. And it's just a beautiful thing to witness for sure. It's very, that's very rewarding.
00:56:47
Speaker
It's just so funny that you say that because i taught. my husband how to cook and that's it was the same kind of situation i would explain how something's supposed to go and then you have to say okay no it never occurred to me that you would do it that way you cannot do that like okay i clearly i have not considered all the possible ways there are to make macaroni and cheese whatever is happening here is is not not right Like, no, you have to boil the noodles and drain the water before you add any cheese at all.
00:57:21
Speaker
Yes. Come on, dude. You had a mom? What is happening here? oh my God. I cannot imagine. But that's the thing is that, like, I love working with this age group, the young yeah the younger, early childhood age, because it it has helped me heal my own life experiences and then given me patience in my own life because, like,
00:57:46
Speaker
we're also learning things for the first time. Sometimes we're also experiencing things for the first time and people grow with the resources they have. And so if you're not given the resources that you would need to grow and learn these things, then you might be learning them later than other people, but at least you're learning them and you're trying.
00:58:08
Speaker
yeah so yeah, it's definitely given me a new outlook on life. Working with this age group, they're, they're healing and, It's awesome. It sounds awesome.
00:58:18
Speaker
Yeah. Now, I'm aware that you also educate people on disability history.
Intersectionality and Social Justice
00:58:24
Speaker
yeah And I'm a big proponent of history in general, particularly when it comes to social issues. Because one of the things that I encountered, I was a Kamala ambassador for the last election. So I kind of made myself a nuisance um talking to everyone who would listen to me about how important the last election was.
00:58:43
Speaker
and And we didn't even take Michigan. But don't don't get me started on that aspect of it. I had the best meme ready to go for it, too. But but the thing about one of the things I kept hearing was, oh, they'll never take this right away. We've always had that. And and it's things like abortion and and having your own bank account and being able to buy property and things that when my mom was a teenager, you couldn't do.
00:59:10
Speaker
Right. You know someone like if I have an abortion discussion and someone will say, well, aren't you glad your mom chose you? Well, she didn't have a choice. Her choices were to stay with a man she knew didn't love her risk dying in an alley somewhere.
00:59:23
Speaker
You know, she didn't she didn't have any good choices because the world was set up to make sure that vulnerable women did not have good choices. And yes, people that don't know their history.
00:59:36
Speaker
feel like whatever is going on now is what's always been and it would be ridiculous to take it away yeah and then you show them a picture of women in iran in 1979 where they're wearing short skirts and high-heeled shoes and their whole face is exposed and yes you say no that shit can go away in an instant right yeah it was only 1977 when they were doing the sit-ins to protect section 504 And I was actually just talking about this exact topic this morning on online um about in reference to The Greatest Showman, because um The Greatest Showman is the story of P.T. Barnum and the freak shows, completely false falsified and glorified and inspiration porn.
01:00:18
Speaker
But um I was talking about it and being like, oh, everyone dancing and loving this musical. And then Meanwhile, here's people with dwarfism and other disabilities being like, that's our generational trauma and abuse that you're dancing and singing to.
01:00:35
Speaker
And somebody had commented, it's just a movie. Why would you compare your life to a movie? Just oh holy shit get over it. And I was like, um because I- does the humanities have to do with humans?
01:00:47
Speaker
Exactly. i would I commented back, first of all, isn't that what movies are for? what yeah Why else would you watch a movie other than to try and relate to it? Two, um I know people who remember what it was like to be in the freak shows or had parents or close family members who were in freak shows or knew people who were in freak shows who could tell people what it was like.
01:01:11
Speaker
then versus now and the differences. And same with Section 504 sit-ins. I know many people who are still alive because, again, it was only 1977 that
01:01:24
Speaker
it talk about how life was before those sit-ins versus once they started enforcing 504. five or four So for people to sit there and say, it's always been like this, we can't change it, or there's no use in changing it, or why do you care?
01:01:40
Speaker
Because we can change it. We have changed it. And we'll do it again if they take it away. So when it comes to ah disability history, um I think Stonewall is one of the things that, I mean, not not to to say that yeah it's ah you know a disability to to be gay or trans.
01:02:00
Speaker
Right. But when we talk about like the history of why we acknowledge things today, um i it's just I had a MAGA boy recently say like, when is straight pride month? And that always makes me laugh because my staple response is, ooh.
01:02:19
Speaker
Yeah, definitely tell me the story of the time that you finally stood up against your oppressors and said that you were going to be straight no matter what anybody else had to say about it. And then the cops finally left you alone. When did that happen?
01:02:32
Speaker
Yeah. My response to that is, okay, go plan it. Because, you know, the problem they have with us a lot of the time is that we don't just have concepts of plans. We actually follow through the plans.
01:02:44
Speaker
Sorry that the straight flag is boring. Sorry that you don't have a straight Pride Month. Sorry that you don't have this and that. There is an International Men's Day, and the only time men care about it is on International Women's Day.
01:02:56
Speaker
Exactly. It's like, sorry, you can't plan. It's like how February is, why isn't there a white history month? Right, right. bitch, there's 11 of them. Look it up. Exactly. Exactly. yeah Gosh. even Honestly, there's 12 of them at this point. like take Seriously. Gosh.
01:03:13
Speaker
Well, yeah, because now people want to tell you white history, like, just to be defiant. Like, all histories matter. I can't with Oh, do they? Because I know some Native Americans who would like a word. Right, literally.
01:03:24
Speaker
They're like, we've been trying and you keep erasing us from databases, but whatever. That's sick. it It really is. I mean, it's... It's a tough time to be a decent person. Yes, it really is.
01:03:38
Speaker
um Honestly, it feels like you're going crazy because you're like, is am I in reality? Yes, I am, actually.
01:03:47
Speaker
Yeah. um So with regard to intersectionality, um I mean, I imagine that you, you have I mean, because you have dwarfism and are trans, that intersectionality is kind of an always thing with you.
01:04:02
Speaker
Yes, definitely. what What would you like to say about that? um I'd just like to say that I think that we really need to acknowledge that some people have different experiences with oppression, and that's okay. It doesn't make anyone's experience more or less violent or life-threatening than the other.
01:04:27
Speaker
The thing is, though, that sometimes... We have to acknowledge that because sometimes one group is being hit harder than another at a certain point in time. and And I love to talk about disability history because it's a great example of intersection and how marginalized groups came together to help us fight for our rights. Talking about the 504 sit-ins again, ah the Black Panthers were huge allies to us, not just
01:04:59
Speaker
protesting for us, but literally washing protesters' hair, hand-feeding them, um making sure they can get dressed and they have food and blankets and pillows and what have you.
01:05:12
Speaker
And people ask them, why are you helping us when you're also attacked and you also have little to no resources? And the Black Panthers were like, you're trying to make the world a better place.
01:05:23
Speaker
That's what we're about. Making the world a better place for whichever group is most vulnerable at that time is going to help all of us because once they take out the most vulnerable, they're going to come for you next.
01:05:36
Speaker
so And that's another huge MAGA philosophy thing. like Why are you helping that person? They're not you. yeah you know If I speak out in defense of trans rights, people will assume I'm trans. yeah It happens to me a lot that I'm accused, you know with air quotes, of being a trans person.
01:05:53
Speaker
And the whole attitude is, well, why are you saying all that stuff about trans persons if you're not trans? Right. Well, because I'm not an asshole. And if I see somebody being hurt, especially if they're being hurt because of misinformation, the only thing that makes sense is to address that and say the real information. And, you know, if somebody is being hurt for something that is completely out of their control or stupid,
01:06:20
Speaker
then, you know, you're an asshole for not stepping in and saying something. Like, I don't, that's, that's a kindergarten thing. I mean, I'm sure you teach kids that all the time. Yes. That's the thing is sometimes I'm like teaching kids, like early childhood, you're teaching, take turns, you're teaching, everyone's different and we should celebrate that. You're teaching all these things that all these adults are missing fundamentally in their approaches to life. And it's so frustrating when i four-year-olds are getting it. And I'm seeing this every day.
01:06:55
Speaker
But here we have grown adults who can't even say hi to their neighbor and listen to how their day went. Well, and now that, like, playground-style bullying is in the Oval freaking office, yeah I mean...
01:07:10
Speaker
You know, talk about normalizing ridiculous things. You know, they're like inches away from you saying like, neener, neener. Yeah, be that whole Zelensky conversation, literally, it honestly felt like something, like just a conversation between a group of children. It's honestly, it didn't even feel like that because I feel like kids would have understood more well that's the thing if that was a room full of high school students somebody at some point would have said hey come on you guys you're being dicks i completely agree i know at least where i hang out there's like yeah always gonna be that one person guess sometimes it's me but that one person that's like hey hang on hang on yeah i want to say something different to what you're saying
01:07:57
Speaker
Right, and maybe they got made fun of, but they were still there. Probably. Well, and yeah again, that is a huge problem that we're having right now is just this rampant cowardice.
01:08:08
Speaker
yeah and And it's so frustrating because people say, oh, well, you wouldn't do anything about it. I would. I would. If I could march right into the White House right now and say things to people, I 100% would. Point my finger. Shake my fist. I would tell the Donald precisely what I think of him.
01:08:27
Speaker
Me too. Me too. There's actually a story that I tell on occasion, and which I'm about to tell now, is that, um no, there was there was this um time that i was on LSD,
01:08:39
Speaker
Because, you know, I'd be doing that in my 20s. Yeah. and um And I found out from a guy who was in school with with Don Jr., because I've been a fan of Don Jr. for ah long, long time. I had been. I always thought he was just this scrappy little badass who was surrounded by assholes and that he was going to fight really hard and turn out good.
01:09:00
Speaker
Yep. Well, yeah but but i I had found out from him that ah Don Jr.'s dad had like gone to visit him at Penn.
01:09:12
Speaker
and um And I didn't know like the whole story at the time. What I heard was that um he went there to see him. And when he opened his door to his dorm room, his dad like smacked him so hard he fell down.
01:09:25
Speaker
and then he just like walked out. yeah So I thought that he like basically drove all the way up there just to hit him. yeah yeah And when I found out about it, again, acid.
01:09:36
Speaker
yeah was so mad. And I started like, I was mad. And what made me the maddest was that nobody did anything about it. right Like from the story that I heard. And my buddy wasn't even there. He like heard it from people on campus.
01:09:50
Speaker
it it was my my friend's brother. But anyway, yeah, so... So I was so mad that I started yelling at my friends to drive me to New York because I was going to kick Donald Trump's ass. Oh my God.
01:10:02
Speaker
Like, oh, that's it, man. I'm taking him to task. Yeah, I've been there. yeah Luckily, no one was fit to to drive. Oh, my God. That did not, in fact, take place. but They're like, hide the keys, hide the keys.
01:10:17
Speaker
That's amazing. Yeah, I've been there definitely under the influence cursing out the government. Like, let me tweet something. And everyone's like, take their phone, take their phone. Well, yeah, see, that's the thing. Like, when I was coming up, we didn't even have cell phones, let alone yeah the Internet. I got all the way through undergrad without the Internet.
01:10:34
Speaker
Oh, God. See, that was my problem. I had it i had the internet in undergrad, and I actually had friends who made a tweet about Betsy DeVos and Homeland Security showed up to our sorority house.
01:10:45
Speaker
That's so weird. We had a guy on like two weeks ago that had a visit from Homeland Security for saying unaliving things about our photos. Yeah. Yep. And so I'm like, ever since... so Thankfully, I wasn't involved in that at all. I wasn't even there when they showed up. But I was like, ever since then, everyone was on edge. They're like, no, don't tweet.
01:11:04
Speaker
Take the phone. Oh, gosh. Well, and I always wonder exactly where the line is. Yes, me too. Because I see stuff all the time from both sides where I'm like, where's the line? Yeah.
01:11:15
Speaker
I mean, it's saying that you wish something would happen versus wanting it to happen versus you would do it yourself under different circumstances. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's it's pretty rough. Yeah. Because, you know, on Facebook, you can take a ban for calling someone a bitch.
01:11:30
Speaker
Yeah. Like, I'm an adult. I'm in my My friend's tweet was super lighthearted. It was so dumb. So I was like, what? I was shocked at that. Yeah.
01:11:41
Speaker
Yeah. yeah ah So, wait, there was something else I wanted to cover. um yeah I'm looking at my list, because I have a list, but then we kind of jumped around, because, you know, ah just kind of like i i don't think we have to talk about Billy Barty anymore.
01:11:59
Speaker
But seriously, though, Steve Fowl Play, it's so great. i Sometimes I'm like, maybe I have seen some of these, I have to go. Yeah, it it actually, um yeah, I had i had people over to watch it at one point, we were having a Burgess Meredith double feature.
01:12:14
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Because that's how um Peter Dinklage was in that. I cannot remember the town's name in that movie. Three billboards to Edvington. Or what was it? Oh, is he in that?
01:12:26
Speaker
I haven't seen that. Yes. And he played like a love interest to the main character. he's the love interest in the station agent. Oh, okay. That's what I haven't seen. i was like, I mean, I guess kind of a love interest. I don't know. Uh-huh.
01:12:40
Speaker
he'd He'd be kissing someone that already has a boyfriend. um I think that might be... I'm trying to think if the main character in the Three Bill Warts movie has a husband or something. I can't remember. I saw that so long ago when it came out. It was a great movie, though.
01:12:54
Speaker
have to watch it again. The station agent is just wonderful. And then when the Game of Thrones came out, I was like, oh my god, it's that guy from the station agent. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. Well, he's also in, um well, 13 Moons, but also Nights of Bad-Assdom.
Fantasy Portrayals and Stereotypes
01:13:09
Speaker
Oh, right. And it's funny because he does a lot of ah fantasy stuff. yeah Peter Digglage does. And I know that he had that rule when he was casting Game of Thrones that he said under no circumstances was he going to have a long beard.
01:13:26
Speaker
Yep. Because that was such a stereotype. It is. It is. The thing about it is, it's like, we love fantasy. I personally, I play fantasy. um Dungeons and Dragons. I choose a dwarf, an elf, goblin.
01:13:39
Speaker
I choose those characters every time I play. and we love fantasy, but the problem is that they started off representing us in fantasy and we were like, oh, cool. But then we just never moved from there. And it's been decades now.
01:13:51
Speaker
And we're like, hello, can we get something else now? And that's what Peter was saying when he's like, you're still telling the story of the Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Like, how many remakes do we need of this? It's like, yes, it was great. And we can still appreciate the story of the Snow White and Seven Dwarves.
01:14:07
Speaker
I literally have so many merchandise of the Seven Dwarves. But the thing is, can we get something else? Like... Well, what about if they when they make a movie of of the seven dwarves and they don't cast dwarves?
01:14:21
Speaker
That That was a whole added layer. And then they did that because they were like, oh, well, let's not use dwarves so that dwarf-like little people don't feel like we're representing them with this movie. it's It's the actual fantasy character, not like the disability. And we're like, okay, but you're still making the movie, so at least cast us.
01:14:41
Speaker
ah Right. Yeah. Like, if you're going to still make the movie and you're going use the word dwarf and you're going to say it's fantasy, you've always seen us as that fantasy character. So cast us if you're going to do it.
01:14:53
Speaker
Well, I don't know if you checked out um the show Boardwalk Empire on HBO. Oh, no. But there was it set in the 20s, you know, like, yeah. thirty s you know like yeah ah Well, polio was a problem.
01:15:06
Speaker
Yeah. but But one of the things that happens is there is a union of dwarf performers and they get hired to do things like play elves at a Christmas party and play leprechauns at a St. Paddy's Day. Like stuff that's just like.
01:15:24
Speaker
yeah And that's true. Smacks you in the face with how offensive it is. Yeah. We actually still do have a group of dwarf actors and dwarf artists, the Dwarf Artists Coalition.
01:15:38
Speaker
They have pages on social medias if you look them up. and Okay. Yeah, they have several um several little people, artists and performers, and they ah post about the things they're doing all the time.
01:15:53
Speaker
I don't know if you've seen the show Louder Milk on Netflix. Well, it's on Netflix right now. i don't have Netflix. Okay. ah It might be on something else. They just put it on there recently. there's It's about a group of people in Alcoholics Anonymous.
01:16:10
Speaker
And the main character, he's like Charlie Sheen energy in Two and a Half Men. Like that kind of guy who's just like a dick. But he's also like a good person deep down, it seems like sometimes. Yeah.
01:16:21
Speaker
And he's changing. Yes, yeah. So um it's him. But then there's like the, you get to meet the other characters in his group and all that and their stories. And there's one guy in the group who goes on a date and ends up, um,
01:16:36
Speaker
getting a girlfriend and she has my form of dwarfism and she's a friend of mine and she's part of the dwarf artist coalition and so it was really fun to have them post about that she was going to be on netflix and she the show was in the top 10 um cool shows on netflix for a long time and she was in multiple reoccurring episodes so that was really awesome to see wow yeah that is yeah So are the dwarfs in reality TV? Are they also in the union? Does that, does that count? Like, I don't even know if reality TV gets a SAG card. I'm like, I feel like they could. if
01:17:13
Speaker
Honestly, I think anyone can join if you consider yourself an artist. oh So they could join. ah a lot of them do art stuff in their personal lives too. But I don't know. It's kind of hard. they they're kind of, it's like,
01:17:29
Speaker
yeah That's a very controversial subject and it's just hard because they try to represent us but they are under contract and they're being groomed honestly and so it's tough.
01:17:41
Speaker
Well, I know that there's a show called Little People Big World and and I have not watched it because it always seemed blatantly exploitive to me.
Reality TV and Misconceptions
01:17:49
Speaker
Oh yeah, is. Okay.
01:17:51
Speaker
Yeah, I talk about it a lot. Just honestly, all those TLC shows in general, they are fetish content under the guise of representation. And even if it's not like, even if you can't tell that it's blatantly fetish content, the clips, the way they film things are like, they'll take them to a restaurant, and it will be an empty restaurant, but they'll make them this group of little people sit at a high top table.
01:18:17
Speaker
Not only will they do that, but they'll film them climbing up the chairs to get to the high top table. I don't know a single little person that would choose a high top table and like um ever.
01:18:29
Speaker
So i'm like, and and the fact that it's not just once, it's in every little person's show. It's in every time they go out, they're at a high top table. It's just little things like that where it's like, if you are a little person, you know, we wouldn't do that unless someone was paying us a lot of money to do that.
01:18:48
Speaker
Wow. little frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. See, that's what's so gross about it. I mean, because it's supposed to be representative and people will watch it. And I know that mostly from like the fat people shows. Oh, yeah.
01:19:01
Speaker
Oh, yeah. You know, that like, it's fat people, no little people, trans people. And like, the whoa, look at that weird creep. yeah let's Let's learn more about that weird freak so that you can be more knowledgeable. And it clearly is.
01:19:16
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's really exploitive and it yeah gives people false information. Yes. And that's what we are pretty much half the time we're advocating online and and teaching people things. It's unteaching them about the things that these reality TV shows have taught them about us.
01:19:36
Speaker
And yeah, it's really hard when you think about all those. All the shows and all the people they represent and the fact that they are fetishized categories of people.
01:19:47
Speaker
And it really speaks to another issue that we kind of have as a society. Yes. Which is what that we don't take people at their word about their own life experience. Yeah.
01:19:59
Speaker
yeah Every time I have a post take off on threads about something that's happened to me, a complete stranger will come in and lecture me that I don't understand my own life and I don't know what happened and I, yeah that isn't real or, you know, so and I mean, not just when something bad happens to us, yeah because certainly victim blaming is a completely huge and, and epidemic you know, I mean, that's, that's a topic for another day, yeah but just the idea that we don't take people at their word about what they're living with and what is happening to them. And then they make a TV show that's supposed to be reality and it feeds people a bunch of bullshit because it hopes it will entertain them.
01:20:40
Speaker
Yeah.
Ableism and Misguided Allyship
01:20:41
Speaker
A lot of times it turns into a savior complex where people think they're protecting us by um like saying these things, saying these facts about us, like, oh People, men are going to fetishize you. So you have to be really careful.
01:20:56
Speaker
But it's like, I also am 26 years old. And sometimes these are my peers. And I'm like, I have the same life experience as you. Maybe i I don't care what I look like. I don't care if I look like a kid to you.
01:21:09
Speaker
The bottom line is I'm not a kid. I have 26 years of life experience. I know how to protect myself. So when you're getting to the point where you're having a savior complex and controlling my life, that's when it's a problem and when it's ableist and it's no longer you being a good person.
01:21:30
Speaker
Well, yeah. And I mean, that that's the thing about allyship is that Plenty of people want to be an ally and it's absolutely sincere, but yet, first of all, it can look very performative depending on what it is that you're doing and why.
01:21:47
Speaker
But an ally doesn't mean walk in and rescue someone, you know, like and someone, I was in a hospital leaving the and someone just like took my, said, like took the back of the wheelchair that I was in and started pushing it.
01:22:02
Speaker
And said, all right, where to? And I'm like, who the hell are you? That's like the biggest no-no. You're independence. Like was waiting for my husband to get out of the bathroom. And like, I think I'm being kidnapped. Yeah, literally.
01:22:16
Speaker
Like that's that's terrible. That's the worst. I hate hearing those stories. and it you know and But then he was angry when I was like, what the fuck do you think you're doing? well I was just trying to help. And they're like mad at me.
01:22:27
Speaker
Like I'm supposed to console this person that just did this rude, ridiculous thing.
Consent and Physical Autonomy
01:22:32
Speaker
Yep. That's literally, i swear that is one of the most common experiences we have with ableism in the dwarfism community.
01:22:41
Speaker
Can I ask you a personal question about that? Yeah. Do strangers ever try to, like, lift you up off the ground? Yes. I was going to kind of lean into that. I get, yeah, picked up, touched.
01:22:53
Speaker
Some people think we're good luck, so they want to hug us for good luck. Oh, my God. What? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I know. It's absolutely, like, I laugh about it all the time just because I've dealt with it for so long that it's just like, what?
01:23:06
Speaker
Like, how? How do you think this is? shit. Yeah. And yes, we get picked up all the time. And it's actually, it could be life threatening because we have extreme spinal instabilities almost across the board.
01:23:20
Speaker
um And even diving into a pool or sleeping in the wrong position can paralyze us. So if you're picking me up in the wrong spot and squeezing me or shaking me around, you could paralyze me.
01:23:34
Speaker
So i just, people need to stop doing that. That's an assault, right? It is. It is quite literally. and And we all, we've had people in our community that tried to take legal action and it's a difficult process to get that done, to get that process, like to get that recognition That, like, a cop doesn't necessarily accept that as an assault?
01:23:56
Speaker
Yeah. Well, i you know people that... You'd probably be, like, lectured for not knowing how to take a joke or some shit? Yes, yes. And, yeah, I've had friends that have literally, like, had their, like, butts grabbed and stuff like that.
01:24:11
Speaker
And they've tried to file charges for sexual assaults and whatnot, or sexual harassments and... they've literally had to like leap lawyer up and do all these things. And it's just been a long process.
01:24:26
Speaker
Jeez. Yeah. It's tough. that That is just infuriating. yeah I don't even know what to say. i know. Right. I know. I know it's tough to respond to, but I think the bottom line is just that when you do that to people, when you push their wheelchair or pick them up or,
01:24:41
Speaker
You're just taking away their autonomy, their independence. like imagine It's basically putting someone in handcuffs or putting weights around their ankles. For fuck's sake, consent. I mean, we know about consent now, right?
01:24:54
Speaker
Exactly. like Do we have to go back? Ugh. Well, like, I mean, because I know people do it with kids. Like, I've seen people pick up other people's kids. And if I just picked up somebody's kid out of a crib or off the ground or something, literally I would fully expect a parent to knock my friggin' block off. man Like, what?
01:25:14
Speaker
Yeah, right.
Podcast Experience and Impact
01:25:15
Speaker
so was ah Was there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't really get to cover? um No, this was great, honestly. Ah, yay.
01:25:24
Speaker
it was a great time. I think we got a lot of good stuff said. I think so, too. I think so, too. I hope people ah get something out of it. Me, too. ah So, was is I like to give guests a chance to ask me a question if they want to. So, is there anything you want to ask me?
01:25:40
Speaker
Let's see. What do you feel is the most important thing that you gain from doing this podcast? Oh, my gosh. learned so Like, what's the most rewarding thing?
01:25:52
Speaker
I learned so much. um Yeah. I guess...
01:25:56
Speaker
and this is this It's weird because it's it's like really like personal and specific to me. It's not like a a general wisdom. yeah But i have I have a couple of uncles. And like I said, my my ah upbringing was very conservative. i come from a long line of of white conservative people that are like European and all that there. yeah um and And one of my uncles um but just started listening to my show a couple weeks ago. And so now he...
01:26:27
Speaker
And he'll just text me out of nowhere and comment about something I said in the show, which for me could be like a year ago. Just like, what? What do you even? Oh, oh But the fact that he's thinking about things that he wouldn't normally think about and is thinking about things...
01:26:45
Speaker
that you know like in in new ways with new empathy um I think is um because yeah he was taught like nothing about trans people and so when he first started learning about trans people he didn't understand it he thought it was weird i mean and I mean I didn't really understand it either i didn't understand how like the that gender and sexuality don't necessarily... yeah um like I thought that it was part of... Like, any change that someone was making, I thought it was part of...
01:27:20
Speaker
a journey that ended with everybody being cis and straight. Right. And right so when the author Poppy Z. Bright transitioned, um I was, I guess I was surprised that they still like men.
01:27:35
Speaker
Yeah. Like, well, wait a minute, but then you're just being gay. That's hard too. Right. But, but it's, it's what we were discussing earlier. Like, no, you're living authentically and that's the right direction, no matter what direction it is. But like, I was young and inexperienced and I didn't,
01:27:50
Speaker
have exposure to any of that, which is part of the reason that I do this, because I think that most people are basically good and most people will make good decisions if they're given good information. I agree.
01:28:03
Speaker
So that is what I'm trying to do here. And in the case of one of my uncles, I managed to succeed. so love that. That's always feel good story to hear.
Stereotypes and Political Critique
01:28:11
Speaker
i kind of have a similar thing. And that's why I share my story online is I've literally had some of the most conservative people from my high school experience find me in the hometown bar and be like, because of you sharing your experience and knowing you before your transition and now,
01:28:27
Speaker
Now I see everything differently. And I'm like actually way more moderate now or way more left leaning now. And I'm like, what? I would never experienced you get that from like my crazy Instagram stories. That's why people think that college indoctrinates people because you raise kids in this hateful little bubble and tell them everybody who's not just like them is, you know, a criminal or predator or something.
01:28:51
Speaker
And then, like, I've had so many trans people on the show, and my takeaway every time is how could you spend any time whatsoever talking to this person yeah and think that they're only trans so that they can be around kids? Exactly.
01:29:06
Speaker
And, you know, it's extra infuriating because the reason people think that comes from a bunch of people who... you know, do bad things to kids. Yeah. And and we're all against that.
01:29:17
Speaker
You know, and that's, it's so infuriating that the things that MAGA people yell about are generally the things that they're doing, which is why I don't like all their talk about voter fraud. because Yeah, right.
01:29:29
Speaker
It's all projection. I mean, it is possible that Trump won legitimately last time. Like, I can't discount the possibility that America really is that hateful. There's a lot of people that love him, for sure. But man, I don't think so. I really think it was rigged last time. know all the pulp-like predictors were leaning, comma, like, pissed off.
01:29:52
Speaker
But, yeah, I guess it's probably inappropriate for me to say something like, Elon Musk helped Trump steal the election. So I i won't. I won't say that. I know we're not trying to be hypocrites. No, that would be inappropriate to say that.
01:30:05
Speaker
Yeah. That'd be so
Humor and Conclusion
01:30:07
Speaker
long. Well, it's it's actually time for the Mad Lib. Yes, let's go. all right. So I have it in front of me here. um I need some adjectives. Looks like one, two, three.
01:30:20
Speaker
right. Four. Four adjectives. Okay. First one, um fruity.
01:30:28
Speaker
Okay. Second one, let's do
01:30:39
Speaker
spicy. Not me doing flavors. And then another one is hard. Okay. Okay, and one one more.
01:30:54
Speaker
Let's do
01:30:59
Speaker
heavy.
01:31:02
Speaker
All right, I need one, two plural nouns. Let's see. First one, let's flags.
01:31:18
Speaker
Flags, okay, and one more. And the other one will be,
01:31:27
Speaker
let's do school buses.
01:31:33
Speaker
Okay, and let's see, a noun. I'm gonna need one, two, three, four, looks like five singular nouns. and Okay, let's do,
01:31:45
Speaker
um
01:31:48
Speaker
why is it so hard to think of words? Because smart people have a more difficult time with this. I know, right? I'm like trying to be creative. i'm like I feel like I can't just say a basic noun. Okay, let's do flower.
01:31:59
Speaker
Let's do Michigan place. Beach. many? Four or five?
01:32:12
Speaker
ok ah beach and how many four or five You know what? I'm actually going to use, um there's a couple coming up that are place. So I'm going to use Michigan and Beach as as those. So give me, I need three more now.
01:32:29
Speaker
All right. I got you. um Guitar. And let's do,
01:32:38
Speaker
let's do. Donald Trump. Can we do him as a person? Sure. All right. Maybe it will fit in there funny. All right. um Actually, I need two more nouns.
01:32:50
Speaker
Oh, okay. ah I think I miscounted. Maybe I did. i don't know. You're good. But I do need two more. Let's do Twitter
01:33:03
Speaker
and Pitchfork. Okay.
01:33:09
Speaker
All right. I need a number. Six. And another number.
01:33:19
Speaker
Let's do 48.
01:33:25
Speaker
Okay. And an adverb? oh
01:33:30
Speaker
Slow. All right. I'll put a Y on that. Oh, slowly. Thank you. And a verb? That one I will do running.
01:33:42
Speaker
yeah All right. It's present tense one, so we'll put run. And then i need an occupation. Teaching.
01:33:56
Speaker
Okay. All right. um So here we go. This is called a friendly game of baseball. Okay. Are you a fruity athlete looking for something spicy to do after school?
01:34:10
Speaker
Why not learn to play the hard game of baseball? Baseball is played on a field shaped like a flower. There are six teams in a league and each team is limited to 48 players.
01:34:25
Speaker
The team takes turns going to bat at the guitar and playing defense in the Michigan. The batting team sends the players up to home trump one at a time. so And each player tries to hit the Twitter as slowly as he can.
01:34:46
Speaker
then run to first base without being tagged out by the teacher. Oh my god. If the player can... Run around all the bases. Oh, that happens sometimes. He scores.
01:34:58
Speaker
And when you score in baseball, you score flags. And the team with the most school buses wins the pitchfork. Oh, my God. Baseball so simple. It's exciting. And it's heavy.
01:35:13
Speaker
No wonder it's the beach's favorite pastime. ah i love it. Nice. Nice. That is... I just, I love those. I love Mad Libs. I love that you can do them with absolutely anyone.
01:35:27
Speaker
I know. They're chaotic. It's great. yeah They're written super binary, though. i don't I don't care for that. There's a lot that are like girl in room, boy in room, which, you know. But, I mean, these are reprints of really old ones. They might better now. going say, I'm pretty sure all the Mad Lib books I have are so old, too. Because even this one, well, this says copyright 2009, but, I mean, I was playing this and in high school, so. Right, right. You know.
01:35:50
Speaker
that was amazing. I am so glad that you could be here and that we can have this conversation. I think ah people will find it really interesting. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad we could finally do it.
01:36:01
Speaker
Oh, right on, right on. I want to remind all of our listeners that we are sponsored by Sometimes Hilarious Horror and we can be found on Ko-Fi. That's K-O-F-I.
01:36:13
Speaker
Supporting the magazine is a great way to support us. And you can find Chapin on TikTok.com. We will have links in the description. And thanks. We'll see everybody next week.
01:36:26
Speaker
Bye.