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76. Grief Dreams- With Dr. Joshua Black
73 Plays4 years ago
Dr. Joshua Black is a grief researcher, speaker, author, consultant, online course instructor, and host of the Grief Dreams Podcast. He has focused all of his MA and PhD research (in psychology) on investigating grief dreams and continuing bonds from many types of loss (including prenatal loss and pet loss). Most of his academic research and publications have specifically been on dreams of the deceased. Dr. Black is considered one of the leading academic experts in dreams after loss (also known as Grief Dreams). Due to the lack of academic research in this field, Dr. Black has focused his efforts on raising awareness on grief dreams through doing talks, interviews, and developing an online Grief Dreams course. Additionally, he developed a grief dreams website (http://www.griefdreams.ca) and runs several social media accounts (Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @griefdreams).
Contact Kendra Rinaldi to be a guest on the show or for coaching: http://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
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Transcript
Impact and Meaning of Dreams of the Deceased
00:00:01
Speaker
But then there's the last sort of piece of what everyone wants to talk about is these dreams of the deceased because these are the dreams that
00:00:09
Speaker
I feel and I've seen have the most impact in people's lives. They feel different from other dreams, but also they can have a very positive impact and really change people and help them out in the most dire times. But they can also cause a lot of additional suffering and issues for the group too. So that's why I really focus a lot of my research on that area because that's where the challenges lie with
00:00:34
Speaker
the counselors and those people who helped the bereaved, that they have no answers really at this point. And so that's why I really wanted to do the research to really help provide explanations and to normalize those types of responses and experiences.
Introduction to 'Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between'
00:00:51
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:58
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:14
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Meet Dr. Joshua Black: Grief Researcher
00:01:36
Speaker
I'm so excited to have on the podcast today Dr. Joshua Black. He is a grief researcher, speaker, author, consultant, and online course instructor. And he's also the host of Grief Dreams podcast. He has focused all his MA and PhD research in psychology on investigating the dreams and continues
00:01:59
Speaker
to do so, and he interviews a lot of people on the subject. He has his website griefdreams.ca, and you can find him on lots of different social media platforms to get to learn more about him, and I'll be tagging him at the bottom in the show notes. Excited to have you here, Dr. Black. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to be on someone else's podcast and be the one getting the questions asked to them.
00:02:29
Speaker
I've got the mic. I've got the control. Let's see what I get to ask you now.
Dr. Black's Journey: From Ontario to Global Grief Insights
00:02:36
Speaker
So I am curious to then learn a little bit more about you. So before we started recording, you know, you live in Ontario. So tell us about your life in Canada, a little bit about you, and then we'll dive into your own grief journey, if that's okay, of why it is you also are so
00:02:56
Speaker
intrigued by this topic of grief dreams. My life's good. I can't complain. I haven't really been outside of Ontario much. You know, that's one of the things I've been in school for most of my days. So I'm super excited now that I'm done to be able to travel. And then of course, the moment I'm able to travel is when everything's in lockdown.
00:03:19
Speaker
So I am looking to, you know, one day really travel the world and see the different cultures because I feel that there's so much we can learn from that. And especially on grief and dreams on how they process and see these, this topic, because I said, if it's not studied a lot in the research, it's hard for me to really understand how different cultures really, uh, perceive these and, and the distress that can come from their interpretations.
Childhood Nightmares and Evolving Dream Perceptions
00:03:43
Speaker
So at the end of the day, like I never, I don't know how much you want to talk about my, my life down here.
00:03:47
Speaker
But at the end of the day, like I said, like I grew up in St. Catherine's, Ontario, right by Niagara Falls. And, you know, my life was pretty chaotic based on just my environment at home and also the school environment. And so my understanding just of dreams in general was a very negative situation where I had a lot of nightmares as a kid.
00:04:10
Speaker
And because of that, I grew up also in a Christian household where they didn't know the answers to dreams or understand dreams too much. And so they must have been told. And then they told me that these dreams are from the devil. So my understanding was that the devil infiltrates the dreams. And so negative dreams are just something to be afraid of rather than gain any kind of knowledge about oneself. And now I learned throughout time that that's not the case that you actually, there's a lot of.
Personal Truths Revealed Through Dreams
00:04:40
Speaker
a lot of jewels within nightmares that can actually help us process, you know, what we're going through and make us aware of what we're processing too, because the mind is really good, I find, at tricking us into believing we're sometimes further than we are, for whatever reason, but to actually gain that emotional intelligence to understand what you're trying to process and how you're feeling in waking life, it's a skill. And I've learned a lot how to do that through actually looking at my dreams. And that was before my dad died,
00:05:09
Speaker
I had, you know, like this very powerful dream that really told me a deep truth about myself that I didn't love myself. And for me, that really shook me to the core because the first time I had a dream that actually meant something and it wasn't until I was just finished high school. So that's a long time to then finally say, wait a second, I think dreams may mean something. I think everyone around me lied.
00:05:31
Speaker
You know, and so the dream that you had that was in high school, you said the dream that
Dreams and Self-Love: Healing from Breakups
00:05:36
Speaker
you had. Yeah, right after high school, I had a breakup and the individual cheated on me and it broke my heart. And I couldn't either sleep for about three days. It was the most distressing point of my life, I would say that moment. And I just didn't know what to do. Nothing was none of my coping mechanisms were working at that point. And so as a in a Christian home, what I did, I don't know if I
00:06:00
Speaker
would say I believed fully in their God, what they say, because of all the trauma going on around me. But there may have been something more. And so I just, you know, bent down my knees and said, like, I just need help. Um, whatever's out there, you know, can you give me understanding on why I feel this way? And it's interesting because I never asked for it to be taken away. I just wanted to know understanding because it was so scary. I couldn't understand the emotions that were going in. And then I had a dream.
00:06:27
Speaker
where I was, you know, this reporter running like by this sort of stream of water and I was following it. And I was going over hills, under valleys. It seemed like it was like six to eight hours just like running, you know, by this stream. And it opened up to this huge ocean. And then I looked and there is a pier and there's someone standing at the pier. So I ran over to the individual and then I was at, and I asked, there was a guy and I asked him, you know, like, where is it? Where is it? As I was like looking for,
00:06:57
Speaker
something and the individual looked at me with those like very knowledgeable eyes you know like those people who like know something like they're just like super smart they're just but they're not going to tell you straight out so anyways he pointed to the left of the ocean and said it could be over there he pointed to the right of the ocean could be over there and then he pointed straight ahead and said it could be over there then he turned and he said but do you want to know where it truly is i said yes yes yes and he pointed to his mind and i woke up
00:07:25
Speaker
And I woke up not only realizing the dream was important, had meaning, but also understood it. And if someone else had that dream, they may not have understood it, but for me at that point, that was so strange. I had no reason to even believe that this was something more going in. And so I knew what it meant. It meant that I was blaming her, I was blaming him for cheating.
00:07:47
Speaker
But if I really wanted to know the answer of why I was feeling the way I was, I had to look inside. And that's when I realized I didn't love myself. And all she did was bring up a truth that I had hidden throughout all these years, 18 years, right? And so that's my next question after that was, OK, then how can I learn to love myself? And so that's been my process all the way through, which I think allows me to look at these dreams in a different way, too, and also grief.
00:08:11
Speaker
Wow. When you were saying that, like, you know, how we usually can interpret more like ourselves, like depending on what it is that's going on, like we can create our own understanding of a grief dream or any grief dream, right? Doesn't have to be a dream.
Techniques for Remembering and Interpreting Dreams
00:08:29
Speaker
I wake up sometimes and I'm like, the first thing I do, literally, if I remember one specific thing, I Google dreaming with,
00:08:36
Speaker
Like I dreamt with a baby elephant this week, right? So I'm like, I told my husband the whole thing and the baby elephant was my pet and all this, and I'm telling him the whole story. And I tell him so that I don't forget the moment I put my feet on the floor, right?
00:08:54
Speaker
What is your belief about that the moment we step? What is that window of being able to remember and what is the best way to capture it? For example, this dream that you had, because you still remember it so vividly, is it because you wrote it down?
00:09:10
Speaker
uh, before you woke up or like, did you just lay in bed and analyze it before you stepped out so that it just sinks in? Cause I have others that I really, and I have had grief dreams that have really have like sunk in, but it's because I've shared them too. So what is your method of remembering? So for, for that dream and certainly had some other dreams I had, it just, I feel that because it was so meaningful in my life,
00:09:39
Speaker
it's set in one of those special moments. So I'm never going to forget it. But other dreams that maybe I needed to more interpret kind of thing or look at a little bit more, the best way to do that is as you wake up, so you keep your eyes closed, you rehearse the dream. So you make it go into short-term memory. So then when you wake up, you can write it down or share it on your phone, whatever the way you want to record it. But that way it actually is there because
00:10:07
Speaker
There is a thing where people will forget their dreams as they move forward throughout the day. And that's one of the theories of that is because you're dreaming a different state of consciousness than you are in waking life. So it's stored in a different way. And that's why sometimes even you'll forget it and then like something triggers you to remember that dream. So it's like, it's very hard to retrieve that memory of that dream.
00:10:28
Speaker
So writing it down is the best way to be able to do that. And we also forget details over time. Just memory isn't, you know, like absolute. So it's great to be able to have those, those booklets or those dreams. So you can actually look back and say, Oh, that's interesting. I forgot about that detail.
00:10:44
Speaker
No, that is so true. Yeah, the ones that are really meaningful. Has it ever happened to you that you've interpreted a dream, a grief dream or other? Because I'm assuming being like grief dreams are your niche, but I'm assuming that the whole umbrella for you is dreams in general. Is that correct? I really just really look at my own dreams.
00:11:07
Speaker
And because it's so hard to quote unquote interpret someone else's dream because they have their own symbols and signs. And as, as much as I know, you Googled what a baby elephant is a baby elephant can mean anything to anyone based on their previous experiences with that thing. Right. What shows you watch if you like, what was that show? Barbar was like an elephant. Yeah. Right. So like the cartoon, the cartoon, right? So it's really depending on, you know,
00:11:32
Speaker
your symbols and your language. And so it's very difficult to understand other people's. And so when people do look at dreams, the sad thing is they do go to like a dream dictionary to try to help them understand that's a very poor way to do it because their language is so different from yours. And if you're looking at theirs, you may now misinterpret your own dream or you may dream in their language, which is very confusing for everyone involved.
00:11:55
Speaker
And so, and it's also when you look at dreams, it's not just the image. So it's not just baby elephant. What does it mean? It's the baby elephant is driving a car. You're in the backseat, you're eating donuts. And so there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of symbols going together to produce something, right? It's trying to tell you like a sentence or a statement. And one word isn't enough for the most part. And so you have to look at all the other details and how they're interacting with one another to really understand
00:12:22
Speaker
what your mind is trying to get you to be aware of. And for the most part, there's not many words that are said in dreams, more images and actions. And so you're trying to really, you need to spend time to develop your own. And that's why I said, like after that one dream, I really spent a lot of time trying to understand my own dream language, to be able to now be able to look at the dreams, to gain the wisdom, to be able to produce action and waking life. But yeah, for the most part, though, I really focus on the grief dreams because I understand
00:12:50
Speaker
so much more about that topic. And those symbols are a little more easier for me because I've seen so many and so many themes. So you started seeing very constant stuff and, and you know, it relates to grief in some way for the most part, if it's soon after loss anyways. And so it really narrows down the focus of the person's life. I'm really with the minds trying to help them out with.
00:13:10
Speaker
And the grief dreams do not necessarily mean that the person that has died or the animal or the deer one or any particular issue that you might be having in life that's causing you grief, like a major transition in life. It doesn't mean that those issues appear in the dream, correct? Or the people appear in the dreams, not necessarily.
00:13:34
Speaker
It's true right cuz you know symbols are fun that way and they'll take everything out that you think would be in there and put it in with a different symbol of some sort so like for example after a death you may have a dream of running by a mountain and the mountain collapses on you and so that more or less symbolizes your waking day struggles in the heaviness of the world.
00:13:56
Speaker
Right? So it's very symbolic of your emotions and what you're dealing with. And dreams, when we look at the research, dreams represent our waking life. And so it's very important to know that. And then there are those dreams where the deceased aren't in them, but you'll be visiting, let's say maybe the hospital that they died at, or you may have characters that you're interacting with that will talk about the deceased in some way. So it could be just characters could be angels, it's in God.
00:14:24
Speaker
talk to them and reassure them in some way. But then there's the last sort of piece of what everyone wants to talk about is these dreams of the deceased because these are the dreams that
00:14:35
Speaker
I feel and I've seen have the most impact in people's lives. They feel different from other dreams, but also they can have a very positive impact and really change people and help them out in the most dire times. But they can also cause a lot of additional suffering and issues for the bereaved too. So that's why I really focus a lot of my research on that area, because that's where the challenges lie with the counselors and those people who helped the bereaved.
00:15:02
Speaker
that they have no answers really at this point. And so that's why I really wanted to do the research to really help, you know, provide explanations and to normalize those types of responses and experiences. Oh, this is wonderful. So good because it is, it's such a, it's a world we do not really fully understand, right? Because as you said, it's just like this other, this other world within our world, right? And the dreams, it's like, wait, how come I can run, but I'm really in the dream I'm running, but I'm not really,
00:15:32
Speaker
I don't have legs. It's just like just all these different things. I'm flying. I'm doing this. I don't know how to fly. You know, it's just such an amazing. I've always been fascinated with dreams. Now, let's go back into the passing of your of your father, since that was something. How old were you when
Dr. Black's Personal Grief Journey
00:15:49
Speaker
your dad passed away? I was twenty four when he died and it was on my twenty fifth birthday I was picking out the casket. So he died just like a couple of days before my birthday. And it was once again like that.
00:16:02
Speaker
That was the first time for me that I experienced that type of suffering. It was different from when I had that, my heart broken, that cheating. This was a different type of loss for many reasons. And one of the reasons was, you know, when I look back, me and my dad were just rebuilding our relationship. And I sort of talked about in the beginning how we had, you know, he had poor emotion regulation. He liked to drink alcohol, so we didn't bond.
00:16:28
Speaker
as I guess lovingly as we could have as I grew up. And so I really stayed away from for most of my youth and teenage years. And so for me to have those moments of building a relationship for the last year and a half were very monumental for me to sort of have that relationship I never had as a kid. And it was very special to me. And so when he died, I think that was really a part that was really coming out because I just started crying and it was such a shock. I got the call.
00:16:57
Speaker
for my aunt and it just, it just broke me. And it was very scary to see the emotions come out because as a typical male, I didn't really cry. And so for, for it to just keep coming out and like the, it caused it, like for me, it was painful to, to cry. And then to have the thoughts that came with it, that I wasn't going to have any kind of new memories with him. And then I tried to remember the memories and I couldn't. And so that caused me so much distress.
00:17:26
Speaker
because I felt that, you know, like there's, I just felt like just, this is a horrible moment in my, in my time. And it lasted for, I would say about three days. And so I did the, I picked up the casket, did the eulogy at the funeral, which was his own moment in my time where I just kept crying on stage. And I did finish the words I wanted to say, but then I went to school. And what was interesting was I had those moments of,
00:17:54
Speaker
deep sorrow, went to school, and then everything went away. But it went away, not in like a good way. It went away that I became almost, I would say, depressed or numb, that I wasn't having experienced any sadness, but I also wasn't experiencing any happiness or joy either. So I was in this like gray area that I was walking around in the world that's supposed to be colorful. That's the gray in between. I think so. You nailed it there. Just summarize the title of my podcast.
00:18:24
Speaker
Do I get a prize? As you can see, I shift gears easily into humor in these conversations because it is sometimes, you know, we do rehashing some of our emotions sometimes. It's good to kind of just add a little bit of that. So if I break stuff like that, you know, up with that, I hope that that's okay with you, that I add my little
00:18:51
Speaker
my little humor part. Hey, it's your show, right? Do what you want. You're the guest. So then you were just like in this kind of what is it called limbo, as they would say in that in that limbo part of like just kind of going through the motions because you decided you kind of swept it under the rug because you went back to school kind of busyness in your life.
00:19:15
Speaker
that you weren't really, as they say, I don't want to say, I'm air quoting, dealing with it or feeling really truly after that, but neither emotion nor sadness, nor joy, just kind of just roaming through life. Yeah. And I can't even say I like consciously did that. It just happened. Like I went back to school and it just almost happened. And if I knew I did it, I would understand why I was feeling that way and bring it back up. But it was like just really unconscious and how
00:19:44
Speaker
fast, it changed. And it was like that for about three months. And I didn't, I didn't have any of the tools needed to, I guess, understand that. And I didn't have the vulnerability to ask for help. I just sort of like was, I guess this is life now kind of thing. And it wasn't until I had that dream of my father that everything changed. So three months of this. And then I just went to bed and I had this dream where it was, it was like that other dream of
00:20:12
Speaker
sort of seeing that guy and like giving that answer. And so it had that special kind of feeling too. And I saw my father at the end of my bedroom. He was looking through some of my stuff and he looked healthy. Like he looked light is the best way to put it. Cause he was always very heavy in waking life, but just his energy and like, I guess my emotions towards him in a way. And so he looked better than he ever has been before. And I walked up to him.
00:20:39
Speaker
And he knows me and I walked up to him and I said, I'm going to miss you. So I was acknowledging the loss. And I said, I love you. And we hugged and then I woke up. And for me, when I woke up, I didn't know what the hell just happened. It was one of those moments where I woke up and the color was back in my world. And I didn't, I couldn't understand
Healing Through Dreams: A Goodbye to Dr. Black's Father
00:21:01
Speaker
it. Like what, how could that even happen?
00:21:04
Speaker
So the dream itself is remarkable to even just see my father since I wasn't even asking for a dream or even like consciously aware that that was a possibility. And yet here it is. And wow, did it ever change me? So I was able to feel happiness again and I could feel my sadness again. And looking back on it, I can definitely see through the imagery that, you know, the two things really pop up. The one was one of the blocks I had was I didn't get to say goodbye. And it's because he died so suddenly that was impacting my grief.
00:21:34
Speaker
And the next thing was I wouldn't have never guessed, but it was that I didn't share my love that I had for him verbally anyways. And the last time I told him I loved him was probably when I was like four or five. So even though we were spending this time together, I never actually verbalized it. And because he never verbalized it back to me. So it's almost like just you go with what the other person is doing in a way. And now I look back and like, that was so important that I never realized how much verbalizing our love to others is part of our wellbeing.
00:22:04
Speaker
and our health. And so I see this actually, like, as you look at dreams, you see the theme of love in many different forms. And that's one of them that comes up in a lot of dreams on how impactful that is for us as we process our grief. So for me, like, that was the moment that changed everything. And what's interesting is I didn't tell many people about that dream, if anyone, I can't remember telling anyone, tell you the truth.
00:22:28
Speaker
And I just kept it close and I went back to school, got my good grades. And then once I started volunteering with the bereaved, that's when they started asking questions about the dreams.
Volunteering and Sparking a Research Passion
00:22:38
Speaker
And they had different questions. So they wanted to know how could I have a dream? I don't have one. My, all my other family members are having them. You know, what's going on? Are they mad at me? Did they, you know, all this sort of stuff, right? Like people like put up the craziest explanations on why they haven't had a dream or the same having negative dreams, you know,
00:22:57
Speaker
Why is that? Or is it a haunting? So there's a lot of people who have negative dreams that believe these dreams are visitations that will take these negative dreams. It's like a haunting that something's wrong in a way, or that, you know, they're just being me, a mean person now. And, you know, other times, the other one's like, I didn't know, I started having questions, how common is this? Because a lot of people that was working with and supporting had these, a lot of different questions. So when I went to the literature, there just wasn't anything there to give them, to provide them any kind of understanding. And that's,
00:23:26
Speaker
Really at that time, like I never wanted to be a researcher to tell you the truth, but at that moment, there was like almost a calling or just a timeframe where I'm like, you know what, what happens if I could do this? Cause at that point in my life, I finished school and I didn't really know what I was doing in my life. What had you just been studying then at that point? I used to be studying psychology, but I wanted to be an elementary school teacher. And so the backstory is I actually applied to be an elementary school teacher.
00:23:55
Speaker
I got the interview to get in and I turned it down and I never, I just didn't feel right. I didn't know why because I worked my whole life towards that looking back. I could probably say maybe because my dad died and have the pressure. He wanted me to do that. So I didn't need his approval anymore kind of thing because he was dead. And so that could be it. Or there's also the other reason that there's just something else out there for me that I needed to do. And life was pulling me in that direction. And that's really what happened. So I had to get,
00:24:23
Speaker
I needed courage is the best way to put it to even think I could be a researcher because I wasn't trained or nor did I ever want to be that. And it's such a steep learning curve to do that. And, you know, I was able to be successful in it, but, you know, there were some hard times for me. Wondering if I should even be here, you know, like doing this in my master's and PhD, because they're like, it's a, there was a crazy process to try to learn it so fast. Um, when these people that are in these programs,
00:24:52
Speaker
have for the most part always knew, um, they wanted to do this. And so I didn't really care about research per se. I only cared about answering those questions. So it gave me motivation in some form, but also if I wasn't using it in my thesis, I really didn't want to learn it, but you know, you needed to. So at the end of the day, it was a really interesting process for me, but that's actually when I got into doing the research, I, that's when I learned.
00:25:18
Speaker
how big this topic actually is and how much, how little we truly know, because I was just going off a couple of questions, but when you start looking at the biases people have in the world, the training, um, clinicians have, or anyone in the Anatology has, you realize it's almost, it's absolute, like zero. And you're, and you start hearing the comments that they give to the bereaved and it's just, or, you know, any kind of health professionals that they give to the brief when it comes to these dreams, it's very disheartening. And so.
00:25:47
Speaker
It's like, not only am I researching these dreams, but I'm trying to change the culture and how we perceive them. And it's such a bigger task than I imagined, but, you know, like getting the PhD and doing and public, like publishing those, the research studies I've done has really gained momentum, which is really great. And I said, like doing these podcasts and disseminating the research. It's just a blessing for me just because I get so hard to get the word out on something no one really knows much about.
00:26:15
Speaker
Well, no, that is so valuable and it's so interesting because a lot of times we end up doing something. Even just when I started this podcast was my own curiosity of just knowing how people dealt with grief because I knew how I had dealt with mine and I knew what had helped my grief journey and was wondering if that was the case for others. And one of the things that was
00:26:41
Speaker
very like that would strike me or like that was one of those questions that I would have it's like do people that have spiritual beliefs about afterlife or about you know somehow do they have an easier quote unquote time or way of
00:26:58
Speaker
kind of navigating their grief because they still feel this connection still continues even after death. That was really one of those questions for me. So I don't know, it's kind of like as if I'm doing research, I'll leave that on a podcast and I'm sure that's the same for you on your podcast. So what are some of these things that you've realized by having these conversations and doing your research that have answered some of these questions that you had?
The Prevalence and Positivity of Grief Dreams
00:27:26
Speaker
So it's like one of the
00:27:27
Speaker
big ones was, you know, you have to go back to the beginning. Are these dreams even common? Like, cause I had mine or some people had theirs, but is it common? No one's talking about it. So I would have thought going in, it was more rare than, like, than any, like the common, just because if we haven't studied it, it's probably not something that comes up that often. Boy, was I wrong. It's absolutely ridiculous on how common it is. So just, so I did three different studies in my PhD that looked at this.
00:27:56
Speaker
And the first one was on spousal loss. And what I found was 86% of people, um, that, that I surveyed had a dream of deceased at some point within the, in the first year or two after the loss. And for me, that's, that's absolutely crazy because 10% of the population doesn't remember dreaming at all. So you're looking at almost most people who dream in general will have one of these dreams at some point in their, their grief.
00:28:26
Speaker
which is just like how crazy that is. And yet we're not talking about it. Then after also looked at pet loss and 78% within the first six months. And so that number would increase once you go to like a year or two years. So you would think it'd be up to around like 80. And then also after pregnancy loss. So you see numbers as high as 58% within the first year. And that is phenomenal to me because they have never seen the child.
00:28:53
Speaker
But yet here, the child is in their dream and many different forms. So the mother could be pregnant again with the child, but for the most part, it's the child is a baby or maybe a one to two year old could be a three to four year old, depending on, you know, maybe, maybe what they hope for, or even the language they want the child to, to show. Cause like, if you, if you're longing or if you want, or the baby needs to, whatever going on in the, in that moment.
00:29:21
Speaker
says, I love you. They got to be a certain age, right? They can't be like a newborn. They have to be a certain age. And what I've seen is that when a child is around a teenage, they're giving a full sentence of explanation or to try to help the individual. So for those couple, it's more rare for it to be a teenager. But in those moments, the child is reassuring the mother anyways, that the miscarriage wasn't their fault, right? And to help to release that guilt.
00:29:52
Speaker
And so for me, that's such a beautiful moment because that stuff helps us in many different ways. And you don't need to be spiritual to have those types of dreams either. And then for the, and I want to say too, for the, like the pregnancy lost dreams, I looked at partners and the mothers who were having the child and they were both dreaming of the cease pretty equally.
00:30:15
Speaker
And so it's like, we forget and like, even the partners, usually the, even the forgotten mourner on top of even like a miscarriage, they're also disenfranchised too, but even more so the partner and they're also having these experiences and, you know, and, and that's, so it's really nice to understand that this is going on with everyone. And then there was a study that looked at children after a parent law, a parent was, uh, was killed or, or died anyways, and 55%.
00:30:43
Speaker
of the children that were surveyed had a dream. And that was really interesting to me too. So you start seeing that's like, this is so common in the conversation of grief. And with that, we need to start talking about it more. And so that is one of the major things a lot of people go to, like, oh, we didn't know. And, you know, for most people, they didn't know because a lot of people don't talk about it. And so it is kept hidden from the world for many different reasons. And just to name a few,
00:31:10
Speaker
Let's say I've had my own experiences with people. Let's say a pastor, I had this experience. Actually, it's the same pastor that my family went to that told them that dreams are from the devil. Anyways, the person that was running the church said that dreams of the deceased are also from the devil. Good or bad, it's still the devil.
00:31:34
Speaker
And that never really made sense to me. And I started like asking further questions. Cause I've seen like over a thousand different dreams and there's different symbols in the dreams. And so when I saw that, then I asked, you know, like, if that's the case, I go, if what about Jesus? He died and he's deceased. Like, is that the devil too? And they would say, no, that's Jesus. I said, okay. What about when there's dreams, but Jesus and the deceased, is that the devil and Jesus together?
00:32:01
Speaker
And like their face goes white because they don't know what to say because they don't understand the topic. And I think a lot of people they're going with what other people have told them. It's an easy answer rather than saying, I don't know. And I think take courage to say, I don't know. Cause the research wasn't out there for them. So I understand on that part, but to give an answer that will complicate someone's grief, I think is a very poor way to go because you start, you, you start realizing that these dreams for the most part are majority positive.
00:32:30
Speaker
which goes against a lot of the research prior. So when I went in, I thought you're going to, like, I had a positive dream. Other people around me were having negative dreams. So I was like, Oh, maybe I was just like lucky. I got a positive dream. But when I started looking at dream research, what I found was typically dreams are that we have in general are negative in nature just because they represent our waking life or anxieties or stress. What we listened to and read before bed, like it all creeps in and our mind is trying to process that.
00:33:00
Speaker
And so we're going to have more negative dreams after trauma. Research has shown that these dreams are even more consistently negative. So after grief, you'd think it'd be somewhere in between. And when the deceased and they're probably somewhere between, so you're probably going to have more negative dreams of the deceased. But the crazy thing is when you actually started doing the research, it was a huge winner for positive dreams. So it went against.
00:33:25
Speaker
what typical dream research would have thought going in. And that's where I think people get the idea that these dreams are different in whatever way they want to believe that to be true. But just for example, after the spells a loss study, 92% had a positive dream of the cease and 40% had a negative dream. And after pet loss, it was like 90% positive and 25% negative.
00:33:51
Speaker
And what was interesting is those people who had a negative dream tend to have positive dreams also. So, but those who had like a positive dream didn't have like a, you know, they're more or less just having positive dreams moving forward. And so the theory goes that people are probably having negative dreams in the beginning as they work through some of their grief. And then it, once some of those blocks have been, you know, worked on, they're going to have positive dreams as they move forward. And so that's sort of the theory. We need to do more longitudinal research to understand that, but either way,
00:34:20
Speaker
we're having way more positive dreams. And when I ask about these dreams to people, even on the podcast or anywhere else, they typically can report a positive dream. That's their most memorable dream. And most people will have more than one, but some people only have one. And so the frequency is very interesting also. So like, those are the very, you know, very important questions as we move forward. Then the big one, so another big question I went in there asking, because a lot of people were complicating their grief with it,
00:34:49
Speaker
Was why am I not having a dream? Right. And that said, like, I've heard like stories where people think that they're mad at them, that they didn't cross over like those spiritual people, or they're just jealous that other people have. And you want to, and even people that run support groups said they don't want to talk about dreams in those support groups because
00:35:09
Speaker
Everyone's going to have one. You make other people jealous and that's not what they want within their group. I have a support group, so I understand those dynamics. But some don't like to dream. There's some people that don't, but go ahead, continue the dream. So I want to give people a scientific explanation on why they're not. So we can redo some of those complications of putting on their grief and just work with the grief.
00:35:39
Speaker
And what I found was after multiple studies, so it was great that the information was replicated, that dream recall is the most important factor in general. So what it's saying is the more you remember your dreams, the more likely you're going to catch one of these dreams to remember. And so what it's also saying to me is that people are probably dreaming of the deceased more than they're actually remembering it. And so that goes back to the, you know, trying to understand why we remember certain dreams over others.
00:36:07
Speaker
But it also says that you could actually, but there are ways to increase your dream recall if you wanted to. And then that may help you, you know, capture one of these types of dreams. But I always put a caveat in there that, you know, like if you're going to remember more dreams, an issue is you're probably going to remember more negative dreams because you are working through your grief and your struggle. So you might have some nightmares. Deceased might not be a part of that, but you will still have to work through those dreams. And that takes some time to understand your dream language, but there are tools and a lot of
00:36:37
Speaker
jewels within those, those dreams that, you know, if you're, if you're see someone, like I run a group dreams consulting business that I do sort of take in clients where I do help them like understand some of these dreams and how we're fluctuating life, because it is a struggle to, to do that. And so, you know, for them, that's an ability and to remember more dreams. Research has shown that you just have to value them. So you have to want them, want to have them.
Enhancing Dream Recall and Cultural Acceptance
00:37:05
Speaker
And then,
00:37:05
Speaker
When you do have them, write them down because what you're trying to train yourself is that they're valuable now because our culture has, Western culture anyways, has devalued dreams so much so that we forget them and we don't think they're important. And so why would the mind want to remember them? And so that's just that easy technique to be able to remember more dreams.
00:37:26
Speaker
That is awesome. You know, there's a couple questions I have here in my head, sorry, as I'm writing here that train yourself to value your dreams really so that you have more dreams. One of the things that comes up, one is how can, aside from writing them down, does it make a difference to in people's
00:37:48
Speaker
habits before they go to bed to be able to really have a good night sleep and deep sleep enough quality in order to increase the dream recollection. I don't know if that's such an issue because why I say that is because when people wake up
00:38:12
Speaker
from like, say a bad sleep, they'll wake up multiple times during a night. That actually can increase your chances of recalling a dream because you're dreaming throughout your sleep, not just in REM, but also in non-REM. So non-REM until 50% of the time, someone wakes you up, you recall a dream and REM is around 80% of the time. So in that way, like maybe not, but you can just see you can, if you're going to sleep for the whole period of time,
00:38:41
Speaker
The longer you sleep. So if you allow yourself to actually sleep without, let's say an alarm and you're getting eight hours, you're going to probably re remember more dreams because you're going to be waking up in a REM state and, and say like, you have a higher chance. And a lot of those dreams too, are more emotional in nature. So we don't know where these dreams come from in the sense of which state we haven't found that like this hasn't future research should look into that.
00:39:04
Speaker
But at the end of the day, like there is that ability because there's been researchers in the pandemic because in the pandemic, what's interesting is people started to recall more dreams. And so when they look at their sleeping patterns, people are sleeping in more and sleeping in longer. And so that's one of the reasons for that. And so just by looking at, yeah, so that's why it was a tough question because it probably equals out because there's, there's positive, I guess there's increases in both ways.
00:39:28
Speaker
No, it's so true because it's happened to me because I do wake up in the middle of the night to use the restroom. I'm a mom of two. That's my disclaimer. And what I realized is you're absolutely right because then I can recall then maybe those dreams that I've had up to that point because then usually then when I wake up in the morning, it's usually the dreams that I've had just right before that wake up that I remember.
00:39:55
Speaker
And I do dream, I mean, but my dreams are like sometimes I'm telling you, like when I'm trying to like verbalize them, they don't make sense, but they didn't make sense in my dream. Now, in terms of the normalizing the conversation of grief dreams, it would definitely be tied to normalizing the conversation about grief and normalizing the conversation about death, correct? Correct.
00:40:24
Speaker
So it's like until we start talking and making it be more like, yes, I'm grieving and knowing that it's okay to grieve and acknowledging that grief is a process and grief is a journey, that until we start having that, then people are going to be more open about sharing if they've
00:40:42
Speaker
dreamt with their loved one 10 years, 20 years down the line. Because if they were to live in a culture, which a lot of us do and which, again, we don't talk about our grief as often, if you say that you've dreamt with somebody that died so many years ago, people in your community might think that you have not really dealt with your grief or that something's wrong. Would you agree to that?
00:41:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's the big thing. That's why even on our show, we talk about the individual's grief because you have to know about their grief to understand the dream and why it's significant to them too. So yeah, the more people open up about just allowing people space to talk about their grief and normalize that, just that, that they are grieving. Then, yeah, when you ask about these dreams, they're not.
00:41:32
Speaker
They feel that it's a space that they can share too, because it's very revealing in many ways. And they're also very sacred to a lot of people. Like mine was very sacred in that way because it changed me so much. And I didn't want anyone, I'm looking back. I didn't want anyone to tell me any different than what it was or what I felt and something like, I didn't even really even put an explanation on it. I just didn't want anyone to change the way it made me feel.
00:41:55
Speaker
And you see that with a lot of people. So as I said, like with that pastor who said that these dreams are from the devil, if someone goes up to them and they say it's a very positive dream, like the one I had, and he says, Oh, that's actually the devil. It's not your, it's not your father that you shouldn't be gaining any kind of posiveness from that. I said, I, that would have taken every, like a lot out of that feeling of just feeling new again.
00:42:17
Speaker
And, but yet, like, I don't want to sort of, you know, put a mark on the Christian faith just because there's other pastors who do view it as a visitation or has viewed it as they don't know, but they accept the benefits of these dreams to the grief journey. And you see that with multiple religions and multiple cultures. I think that's the issue is that I don't, I haven't really seen one cultural religion that has gotten everything that like everyone has it like organized.
00:42:43
Speaker
to what it is. And I think because it hasn't been the research. So there's just a vast array of experiences people can have. And it's very hard because those people who do believe these dreams of visitation, well, now you have to use discernment. When are they and when are they not? And that changes based on your understanding of grief and understanding of maybe what these dreams are really doing. But I come to the point of when it comes to this, that it doesn't really matter. Like to me,
00:43:09
Speaker
what you believe in the sense. It's interesting to me on how the dream theme formed, but I think, you know, like how you interpret the dream is, is one thing, but the dream itself is doing something. But as long as it's comforting to you. So as long as it's comforting to you, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm learning, I'm willing to be there for you.
00:43:32
Speaker
But if it's distressing, that's when we have to have a conversation and you bring in research or bring in other stuff to the conversation to help the individual normalize those experiences. And people can have very distressing feelings based on a positive dream too. And I think it's very important to know that based on their interpretation of that, and also based on what they see those dreams as too. So like someone that believes in reincarnation, if they have a dream of deceased, they may believe
00:44:00
Speaker
that it's a sign that the deceased isn't reincarnated. And that can be a negative thing for multiple reasons, because there are these thoughts that an un-reincarnated soul can hinder you in your process in life. Like it can make you sick and stuff like that. And you see that in other, even aboriginal cultures too. And so what's interesting is that, you know, let's talk about that. What does the research sort of say? And so those are the main things about let's,
00:44:24
Speaker
It's first thing about grief, which I think the culture is getting a lot better at, but now it's now it's the next part is let's talk about the dreams and also people sleep because sleep becomes. You have to like understand and understand the importance of sleep in general in the grieving process too. And a lot of groups I've been a part of avoid not only the topic of grief dreams, but also the topic of
The Role of Sleep in Grieving
00:44:44
Speaker
sleep. And if you're not getting the right sleep, you're not going to be able to do the grief work you need to do.
00:44:50
Speaker
So with dreams then and sleep, then is there like a link to people that study sleep? Do they also study dreams like do research? Do you know that or not?
00:45:02
Speaker
Not really. It's usually they have their own section, right? So sleep researchers usually just study sleep because that's also undervalued, but it's very hard to, to study. There's not many sleep labs in the world to study it and it's very expensive. So there's so much that we still don't know about sleep that they're trying to figure out. And then there's dream researchers who, you know, there are some that may have someone in a sleep lab, but for the most part, a lot of them it's based on self-report.
00:45:30
Speaker
and trying to figure out dreams on that aspect. There's some that may do both, but for the most part, they are separate fields of study. What you said regarding the sleep of the person that's grieving, that is valuable to what you're saying, because if we don't have enough quality sleep, then in general in life, regardless of whether we're grieving or not, it affects our everyday, it affects our mood, it affects our energy,
00:45:58
Speaker
It increases depression sometimes as well, correct? Like sometimes, yeah, if we don't sleep. So anxiety, all these other aspects. So addressing sleep, quality of sleep is important when you're talking to somebody that's grieving and seeing how they can better their sleep because it can also ease their other, their waking hours.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah, like you're already grieving, then you have the sleep deprivation on top of it, so you're more irritable, you have issues with memory, problem-solving abilities down, also your immune system is shot too, and so you'll get sick more often. And so there's just so many blocks for you to actually process something so heavy that if you're not getting to sleep, it's going to be very hard for you to process your grief.
00:46:45
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's so, that's so true. Now, have you dreamt with your dad since that dream that you had? I did. So in the beginning, what was interesting is I had dreams of him about every three months or so for probably two years, two or three years. And then they slow down and it was like once a year. And then I think it's been about two year, two or three years now since I had one of those dreams where it was like me and him and it was just like us.
00:47:13
Speaker
And like, those are the dreams that a lot of people say are like foster that continuing relationship or that continuing bond.
Maintaining Connections Through Grief Dreams
00:47:20
Speaker
Like there's dreams where he's like in the background and just part of the character, but I don't really, those aren't as, those don't facilitate that kind of connection. It's like nice. Oh, cool. Like it was in the imagery, but it's not like, Oh, I had like a one-on-one, you know, chat with the, with them about my life or, or anything. So.
00:47:37
Speaker
Like those are the ones that I value the most is, is that. And so it was interesting. So the next dream I had after that dream, so that dream helped process a lot of my grief. Tell you like, um, and so the next dream I had, I said like about three months later, it wasn't about my grief anymore. It was actually about my grandma's. And so him and his mother, right? Um, my grandma had a very special connection and talking about, you know, a mother's grief when they lose an adult child, she was devastated and,
00:48:07
Speaker
I like went over there a bunch to try to like just talk to her about it and stuff. And then anyway, so the dream I had was me and my father were driving in his van that he had. It was like a safari van. Uh, and we pulled up to her house and we both got out and we were staring at the house and he said, you know, she's doing pretty okay without me. I said, yeah, dad, she is. And you know, and that was the end of the dream, but you know, it was such an interesting dream because it reflected on her grief. And even though that she was.
00:48:37
Speaker
struggling with it, she was also processing it too. So she was doing okay. And he said, my aunt on the other hand, you know, wasn't as, as well. So like, it's, it's just interesting to sort of see how it just changed focus. And then as I was in university and my PhD, I remember, um, I had a dream where it wasn't about anyone's grief. And so this was probably maybe eight years after that and his death. And he is, we were just, I was in my room and I was working on something and the dream was working on something with school.
00:49:06
Speaker
And he walked by and he said, is there anything I can do for you? And I said, no dad, I'm pretty okay right now, but in a year I may need a new laptop, which is just kind of cool. And then he smiled and I woke up. And so it was just like those moments where like, yeah, like that, like something I do miss is like just having that. And even to have that concern, like as a father, which is interesting because like as a kid, I didn't really sort of see that. He never asked that those types of questions.
00:49:36
Speaker
But there he did. And I think that's kind of remarkable. And I feel that, you know, it's interesting how these dreams has changed my relationship with him, which I think is really fascinating. I see this a lot of times too. I even had a guest on the podcast, Judy Hinderer. And what was interesting is she never even met her dad. And so she never developed a bond. But when she was getting older, she started having these dreams of him, of him being a father and giving her father the advice.
00:50:04
Speaker
with those dreams, she said she actually developed a relationship and a love for him that she never had prior. And I think that is fascinating that that can happen. And these dreams can be a part of the way that we can do that because it helps us continue that bond. It helps us grieve in a new way and it helps us make meaning from our lives in a different way too. So, you know, anyway, there's a lot of
00:50:27
Speaker
a lot of grief work that goes along with these dreams, which is just why I love them so much. And like people who are spiritual or not are still having these dreams. The content may be a little different in the sense of if it's a positive dream, one may be in, let's say an angel may be with them and they're telling about heaven, another one, they're not. But the core of the message is that there's love and that they are there with you. That's the core. And so for me, it's just a beautiful reminder of that love, even though we're grieving, is still a big part of who we are.
00:50:56
Speaker
And that we can get to a point at some point that we can feel it. And these dreams, I think allow us to realize that that possibility is still there and it gives us hope for where we can be in the future. Because in these dreams, they're acknowledging for the most part that the person is dead and yet they can still have this love. And I think that is the challenge in the grieving process is to love them despite the fact that they've died and like, well,
00:51:22
Speaker
to not have the sadness when you think about their death, but you can still sort of acknowledge the death and feel that deep sense of love. And I think that's sort of the challenge that we work with as we move forward.
00:51:34
Speaker
Oh, that's so awesome. That's so, so true. Because one of the things that we miss a lot of times, I could tell you just briefly, one of the dreams I had with my sister, my sister died when she was 18. I was 21. She died in a car accident. And I don't recall if it was about a year or two later, I had a dream. And I maybe no, actually, no, I had a dream maybe shortly after she died. But I
00:52:00
Speaker
interpreted it in a way that made sense to me in that moment. But in the dream, the main thing was I wanted to hug her, but I couldn't. But I was introducing her to somebody and I said, you know, so I won't go into the details, but I was like just like introducing it or somebody and then she would say hi to this person, that, that, that. And
00:52:25
Speaker
And then I said, oh, how I wish I could hug you, like in the dream. But it was an awareness that I couldn't. It was an awareness that I couldn't. But yet, you know, here I was introducing her to this person. So I woke up and I totally...
00:52:42
Speaker
you know, made my own interpretation. The girl's name that I was introducing her to, her name was Hoda, Hoda, which is a Persian name or Arabic, but how it's pronounced, depending on how you pronounce it, can also mean God. And I used to, because I'm not Persian, how I would pronounce it would be like, I would pronounce it, I forget even which one is the right, I think more like, ha, like that, and that,
00:53:11
Speaker
with that more guttural kind of sound is God, hoda, and like you change the accent. So then when I woke up, I'm like, oh, OK, she's in her path to to meet with God. And she was looking actually at place at pictures in the dream of the holy land. And like I'm a Baha'i is the faith that I'm a member of. And it was of the gardens and Haifa. She was looking at pictures of that in the in like in an album.
00:53:38
Speaker
So I woke up and I was like, oh my gosh, she's on her path. Well, I was good with that interpretation about maybe a year later.
00:53:49
Speaker
Turns out I go see this group. Are you okay with me sharing this dream on the thing? But it's just because of those things that interpretations happen sometimes. I went to see this performance of some friends. They were going to be traveling. My sister used to be in a dance group when she passed away. And so they were going to be traveling to Bulgaria to perform these dances. And so I went and saw the performance. And as I was seeing the performance of this girl,
00:54:19
Speaker
Hoda, the girl that had been in my dream with this boy named Jessie who had been in the dance group with my sister. They were dancing this thing and my sister used to do that piece that she was dancing and I had seen it in video only. I had not been able to see my sister live just because of where she lived.
00:54:39
Speaker
So I was watching that performance, and in that performance, I was seeing my sister. Like, that girl right there dancing was my sister. And I'm like there, and I'm like crying. So when they come out and I'm talking to them, this girl said, I said it was beautiful. It was so beautiful. And I was talking to her and to Jesse, and she said, Kendra, I learned it watching videos of your sister.
00:55:06
Speaker
Listen, I still get chills till this day. I'm 45, so this is over 20 years. I'm like, oh my gosh. Then I hugged her.
00:55:21
Speaker
like a movie, replayed. And in that moment, I was hugging my sister. Wow. It was like, oh, and the other thing is, they were actually on their way to Bulgaria. They were going to stop in Haifa. And she said, they were doing this trip in honor of my sister. She had only met my sister once, like years before, because my sister had lived in that same city.
00:55:46
Speaker
So they were doing this honor and they were going to say prayers for her in the shrines in Haifa, Israel. It was like to the tea of that dream that I had had. And I had thought I had already interpreted what it meant for me. So I was like,
00:56:04
Speaker
I'm like, they're like crying. Of course, she has no clue why I'm crying. But I'm like, I just hugged my sister. Like, I was just like, you know, crying,
Personal Stories and the Pandemic's Influence on Grief Dreams
00:56:13
Speaker
bawling. So I'm curious, has that happened to you or to any of the people you've talked to that they've made an interpretation of something that then they realize later after my whole long and thank you. Thank you for allowing me to share that, by the way. And I've never shared that on podcasts. So here I am.
00:56:31
Speaker
What have you noticed that that people may interpret different later on in life? Like of course I think people will they knew with any dream and and these can be the same way where they'll notice certain aspects or they'll make links to New things that they didn't even know before I had a individual that came on the podcast recently Sabrina I believe her name was anyway, so her dream when she
00:56:59
Speaker
had the dream she shared. So she met this motherly individual. Um, she felt there was a connection there. She went into the person's house and she saw like this map and where her father was. And then all of a sudden turned around and her father's right there, like in the kitchen and they embrace her father had passed away. Her father had died. Yes. And so, um, she woke up just feeling grateful to have the moment of embrace and to feel that love that, you know, she finally found them kind of thing.
00:57:29
Speaker
Anyways, only the time go by where she was telling other people and someone suggested maybe it's like that woman's a family member that has died prior. And so people started like sending her pictures of different grandmothers and stuff. And none of them looked like that person. And then someone sent a picture of, I think it was her great grandmother that was young.
00:57:55
Speaker
And it looked, and it was exactly the same person. So for her, it changed the dream in a different way because now the person who was guiding her into the house was actually a relative that died prior. And so for her, it also, the mystery of, she's never seen that photo, but yet here I had a dream of that individual. So there's a lot of different ways people can like take these dreams and also, but that's the benefit of it. That's why if someone had a negative dream and they took us a haunting, well, then if someone
00:58:20
Speaker
later on looks at it and says, actually, it may reflect aspects of your guilt or your grief. Well, then they change that. And so there can be benefits to that. And we're going over dreams that you once had to try to make some understanding of it. Like I had a, I think I have a whole bunch of stories, but I had once I was, I know you got to listen to your, but we have to listen to your podcast, dude. I remember I was at a conference and this like six year old individual came up to me.
00:58:48
Speaker
And she said, when I was a kid, my sister died. So she said, I was like around eight or nine. And she said, I always had this dream of my sister being dragged through the house in the hallway by Barney Rubble, who was a part of the Flintstones, which was a children's cartoon show. And I've never seen that or heard about that dream before, but she's like, can you provide me any understanding? And I just sort of thought about it.
00:59:16
Speaker
And for it to be repeated was very important for anything. So if something's repeated, it means that you're not getting it, right? There's something that is really trying to get you to showcase. And so I'm like, that's interesting. I said, so the character is stealing the child away. And I said, did you ever go to the funeral of your sister? She said, no. I go, did anyone ever talk to you about where she went or that she died? And she said, no. She was there one minute and gone the next. I said, well, then this dream makes sense to me.
00:59:45
Speaker
because what the mind is trying to do is the mind is not good with the unknown. And so it tries to put an explanation on it. Hence why people want to sort of share what they think these grief dreams are because there's just a lot of unknown. Um, but anyways, so because there's unknown, what the mind was trying to do was give her an explanation to help calm her nerves, to why her sister wasn't there anymore. And so what the mind decided to do was make Barney Rebel kidnapper, basically to make an understanding of why she's not there anymore.
01:00:13
Speaker
But this highlights the importance of not only talking about the grief of children, but also the importance of asking the dreams that children are having. Because you can get these flags or these moments where you can reflect on what do they know, what are they still trying to process. And so research has shown that we need to talk to our children about grief.
01:00:34
Speaker
And we need to give an opportunity to go to the funeral home. And it's to understand what death is and why the person isn't there anymore. So it's just another sort of thing to be able to show your audience on the importance of these dreams and how they can play. And this person, 60 years, didn't know. And so she had to find her way through that. But if someone was asking right away, her grief journey would have been so much easier. 60 years. So she was 60 when she asked you this. Well, she looked 60, so she could have been more around. She was 40 years.
01:01:04
Speaker
She had this as a child and it's interesting because then the character of course of Barney Rubble, that's probably even, maybe that is how she interpreted it back then. Those are the TV shows she might've watched when she was a kid with her sister and so forth. That is just, yeah, we do need to, I'm so just grateful that more of us are having these conversations, creating these platforms.
01:01:28
Speaker
podcasts, websites, blogs, people getting PhDs on grief dreams, you know, like yourself and things like that in order to, again, normalize these conversations and for people to not feel so isolated in their grief journey and be able to share with somebody without them thinking they're crazy. That's right. Yeah. That's actually what people have said that they don't want to share because they don't want people to say they're not over their grief or that they're crazy or that they still need help.
01:01:55
Speaker
Because that may not be the case. And like I said, I've seen just in the research, these dreams change as we process our grief. And so even if you're dreaming of the disease, doesn't mean that your grief has resurfaced per se. It could actually be there to try to help you process what you're currently dealing with. Because a lot of these dreams are very loving. And that loving presence helps us re
01:02:20
Speaker
help us regulate our emotions a bit more, help us take a breath of fresh air to then look at the problem a little differently when we wake up because we're not in deep stress. And so just to say that, so like after grief, a lot of the stuff focuses on our grief journey, but then as you move forward, I'd say like after a divorce or something, maybe that, you know, you'll have a dream to help reassure you in some way. Um, but even in the pandemic, the perfect example, I'm seeing a lot of dreams that are based around the feelings of the pandemic. So if someone's feeling very lonely,
01:02:48
Speaker
What happened, what I can, what I've seen anyways, is that people are dreaming of the deceased more often. And they're just hanging out and they're being together because that is something that they're longing for in waking life that they're not getting. But they're also probably stressed. And if you look at, you know, what's probably the best character to be in your dream and spirits were not is probably someone that you love that has probably died because that's, there's a bond there that you, you seek.
01:03:14
Speaker
And then, you know, like even I've seen the deceased ask about the pandemic or you give reassurance about it or even problem solve their own feelings with it. And so there's a lot there. And then when you look at two, just in the pandemic, a lot of people are dying and are grieving. They're going to have a lot of these grief dreams that are going to help them with the current issues they're dealing with. And some of them are, they can't get to the deceased because of border issues.
01:03:41
Speaker
And all the vastness of issues when it comes to when people are dying in hospitals, you only allowed two people in all the sort of stuff. Right. And so there's a lot of complications now with the grief journey and these dreams that can help that in multiple ways. And I've seen that, um, actually that has come through. So I just want to sort of mention that in that end of life, what's beautiful is these dreams and change again to help the individual let go of their body and to let go of that struggle.
01:04:06
Speaker
And to reassure them that, you know, it's okay. If they're spiritual that, you know, there's, they're going to be there when they die. So you just sort of see how these dreams pop up. So after grief is sort of really work through in a way, they pop up in other significant moments, people's life, whether it's great struggle or strife. So it's just, that's the beauty of these dreams. And that's where I can't fully understand it because why, why doesn't happen all the time? Like, it's just like these moments though, that it can really reassure people and give them the motivation to continue. Like I've seen dreams where.
01:04:36
Speaker
I know I'm going on a little tangent, but I've seen dreams where people are wanting to kill themselves because of the suffering that they're facing. And these dreams help them to not kill themselves anymore, to redirect them, to give them love. But also people who are in a deep addiction can have these dreams and then they quit soon after because they had, there's something changed and I'm like, what happened with me? Something changed. And there's still a lot of mystery to that. And a lot of research still needs to be done. But I think that there is a piece in that to solve. I think a lot of our,
01:05:06
Speaker
understanding what a human is and what a human needs to live in this life. Yeah. It's like we're not just flesh and bones, right? Like there's all these interesting, you know, even just within the brain component and this, if we're just scientific, if we want to just look at it in the scientific part, then all these little things of neurons, this or whatever happens, right? And the brain during your dream that maybe shift, then what the person then.
01:05:34
Speaker
something deals when they wake up. If you want to go in with a spiritual component, then we know that we're, because we're also emotions, right? So we're not, we are emotions, we are thought, we're, you know, spirits. Again, I always include the spirit component because that's how I see it, but we are just so much more than just what we see. Yeah. And that's the big focus of this, of just raising awareness is that it's for everyone. It's not just for the spiritual people because it's those spiritual people that tend to put on visitations and tend to bring that up.
01:06:04
Speaker
which actually hinders a lot of other people from looking at the topic, I think, anyways, because there is that bias there. And, you know, this just allows it to be more neutral that whatever you believe, you can still take pieces of this to encourage your whatever your belief is. I'm not trying to change anyone's belief, except if you think it's a negative visitation. Let's work on that. But for the most part, just give understanding on the topic and the vastness of it, how it reaches everyone. And it doesn't really matter what your spiritual preference is. It's still occurring.
01:06:31
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much. Now, tell us a little bit then. You said you do do one-on-ones as well. You do consults. Tell us then about that, and I'll make sure, of course, to put your website in the show notes, but you can go ahead and say it as well.
01:06:45
Speaker
Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah. So if you go to griefdreams.ca is my website, you can have like all the information's on there from all the social media stuff, but I do do the one-on-one grief dreams consulting. So if you have issues, I'm more than happy to spend some time with you to go over that and to help you understand your dream language.
01:07:04
Speaker
Then also, if you're really interested in this topic, I have a nine and a half hour online course that you can take to really learn and be able to provide that space for to ask that question to other people. And I think one of the major issues I found was that
01:07:18
Speaker
There wasn't the information out there and people who wanted to didn't feel confident enough to be able to do that. And so I made an online course now, so that's available too. And so if you just want to know more about, just hear more about these dreams, the Grief Dreams podcast, the way to go, or my Instagram, I'm also on Clubhouse now too. So we're going to be interviewing people on Clubhouse and talking about this subject too. So if you're on there, you can find us at Grief Dreams and we run the Grief Dreams Club and the Grief Cafe Club.
01:07:46
Speaker
Oh, Greek cafe. I like that. I need to hop back on on Clubhouse. I was on there for a little bit when it started. I'm like, wait, I need to get back on and start interacting with some of these. I need to check out when you have your Clubhouse. What is it called again? When you have the live things? I don't even remember. I don't even know the terminology. The club? I don't know. A meeting? A meeting, yeah.
01:08:10
Speaker
I forget. I forgot because I don't go on. Thank you so much, Dr. Black, for being on here, sharing all your knowledge, listening to my dream as well, my elephant dream and my sister's dream. I'm just so grateful for you to take the time to be here, share your experience in this topic, and now for people to get to know you a little bit more as well. So thank you. Well, thank you for having me on.
01:08:42
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:09:11
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.