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S5.E2 - The Anxious Generation - Ch. 2-4
54 Plays2 months ago
Thomas leads our discussion of Part 2: “The Backstory: The Decline of the Play-Based Childhood” from The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt.
Chapter 2: “What Children Need to Do in Childhood” (0:58 - 17:47)
- In light of the author’s comments about “safetyism” and supervised vs. unsupervised play, when do you recall the first times playing unsupervised? What were some of the most memorable (and possibly dangerous) moments?
Chapter 3: Discover Mode and the Need for Risky Play (17:48 - 40:27)
- What are some examples of activities you did as a kid that culturally would be deemed too unsafe and irresponsible to allow as a parent today? (17:48 - 23:56)
- What are your thoughts on the author’s comments that there has been a decrease of risky play in the physical world but an increase in risky play in the virtual world? (23:57 - 40:27)
Chapter 4: “Puberty and the Blocked Transition to Adulthood” (48:28 - 1:00:18)
- What rites of passage did you experience growing up? (48:28 - 58:17)
- A brief discussion about myelination and role it plays in “cementing” experiences during childhood development through a process of “neurons that fire together wire together”, thus emphasizing the importance of having proper and healthy development during pre-teen and teenage years (58:18 - 1:00:18)
Next week we’ll discuss Part 3 (chapters 5-8): “The Great Rewiring: The Rise of the Phone-Based Childhood” (pages 111 - 218)
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See you next week! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
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Transcript
Introduction to Books Brothers Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome back to the Books Brothers podcast. We are a group of six guys in our early 30s who, despite being spread across the United States, managed to keep in touch with each other by reading and discussing books. We've now been meeting every week or two for long enough to have read almost a dozen books together.
Benefits of Reading Together
00:00:22
Speaker
Reading as a group has opened us all up to new topics we might not have delved into as individuals, and it's been great to have productive excuses to remain connected to each other and to share our discussions with the world.
Exploring 'The Anxious Generation'
00:00:35
Speaker
Today we discuss part two, the backstory, the decline of the play-based childhood, which are chapters two through four from The Anxious Generation, how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness by the author Jonathan Haidt.
00:00:54
Speaker
I'm Thomas. I'm Garrett. I'm Fuz. And I'm Adam.
Impact of Social Media on Play
00:00:58
Speaker
So part two of the book, as the title implies, explains the backstory or the background of what has ultimately led to Gen Z becoming the anxious generation. The author makes compelling arguments in chapter two, what children need to do in childhood, that childhood necessitates play-based experience for development.
00:01:19
Speaker
Childhood is an especially important time for development as children learn through playing with others, attunement, or how to interact and deal with others, and learning socially through a slow growth time period from birth through the teenage years.
00:01:35
Speaker
Learning during this timeframe is an especially sensitive time for them. When kids are on their phones and engaging in social media instead of being in real life, common requirements for their natural development is expedited with low commitment. If someone doesn't like you, you can dislike or unfollow them. If you're uncomfortable, you can exit the chat.
00:01:58
Speaker
And kids can learn especially sensitive and inappropriate materials such as viewing pornography before they've even had their first kiss.
Nostalgia for Unsupervised Play
00:02:08
Speaker
So we had already talked last episode about the protectionism movement in parenting. What age did you guys start meeting up with friends to play and supervise? What did you guys typically do? Anything especially risky.
00:02:23
Speaker
Uh, I don't know. Probably around fifth or sixth grade playing like baseball out in the neighborhood with everybody or tag or kick the can. You guys remember that game? kick the can Oh yeah. That's a good one. Yeah. I would say probably fifth or sixth grade for me is when a lot of that started. And I don't remember parents being around for a lot of the stuff that we were doing. Yeah. My parents basically were like, be back by sundown a lot of times.
00:02:53
Speaker
And I think that was, I mean, even, even when I was like, I think younger than 10 years old, I was outside doing stuff until, you know, in the yard or in the woods or whatever, until it started to get dark. And then obviously we needed to be back, but yeah. Yeah, yeah for sure. It's all good though.
Lessons from Risky Childhood Activities
00:03:11
Speaker
It's all good stuff. Like you'd learn such good social skills and stuff when you're doing that, you know, when you're unsupervised and you're playing with kids your age.
00:03:21
Speaker
You guys remember any especially painful memories? Doing unsupervised stuff? Either physical or mentally painful? When I was 12 or 13, we moved to a neighborhood that was a developing neighborhood. So we moved in probably when half of the neighborhood had homes built. So my friends and I would hang out and walk around to where houses were under construction. And we'd go through the scrap piles and we'd find plywood,
00:03:53
Speaker
you know, solid two by fours, things like that. And we built a tree house and we were 12 or 13 and we built that thing unsupervised to my detriment because we thought it would be cool to make a bathroom in the tree house. And I went to test it out and I leaned against the wall and the wall just like came out. So I fell.
00:04:19
Speaker
out of the tree house and got a cut. I have a scar still. It came a couple inches from my eye, so it could have been a much worse. But that was completely unsupervised. After that, after I got stitched up and came back home, my parents then said to themselves, we should go check out this tree house and see how sturdy it is.
00:04:42
Speaker
But the point being that we were walking around the neighborhood, just ourselves, just being pre-teens, being teenagers. and yeah Learning on the go, you know building stuff and getting nails and screws and We had like kind of like a wooded area behind us it wasn't like a forest but there was kind of this wooded area with a with a fairly large Creek and Then on the other side there was farmland but one of my friends lived his house backed up to that so we would go in the woods and had Had a ton of fun
00:05:20
Speaker
And we got into paintball and airsoft and we'd go out where there weren't any, again, where the houses weren't built and we'd play paintball and yeah, it was all unsupervised. I recall doing a lot of like long bike rides with friends and like you'd like bike over to like a girl's house and like say hi and then like leave or you know, and you know, I don't know. It was like you weren't really like actually like going to like talk to them for a while, but I remember doing that. I remember like Garrett was saying, like I can remember going down to like creeks and like trying to like discover things. And one of my neighbors, him and I, he grew up in somewhere more country. He grew up in Washington, Missouri and his grant. I don't know if you remember Grant, Adam. Of course. But he was like big into hunting and his family was all big and hunting. And so I remember him and I would shoot BB guns and stuff.
00:06:07
Speaker
and we'd shoot at birds and we'd shoot at each other sometimes. I remember like throwing fireworks at people and or at friends and stuff and it's like yeah I don't know if I don't know if that stuff is still happening to the same extent but I know that it was like those are some of the things that I look back and it's like yeah it's dumb but it's definitely very memorable. I remember walking on a lot of like ponds when they would freeze over. Oh yeah. Did you guys do that too? Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:34
Speaker
Not the safest. I definitely remember one leg going down one time. Really? but chair ah Mr. Deeds was about to happen. We had a pond in my backyard during high school, like we lived adjacent to it. A bunch of neighboring houses did too, but my parents were always like watching out the windows from time to time if it was frozen over because they just knew we wanted to walk on the pond all the time. That's funny. Yeah, we didn't do that very much. Couple times. We had a trampoline in our backyard. Now that was
00:07:14
Speaker
I feel like that was a pretty large show of faith in our ability not to break our own necks, I guess, by my parents. So I'm not saying it didn't almost happen a few times, but I think it was definitely a good thing. I feel like we were just trolling our parents.
00:07:32
Speaker
right now. Like we should do a monologue like Dr. Evil.
00:07:40
Speaker
yeah right with scott My father ah made ridiculous remarks like he invented the question mark.
00:07:51
Speaker
That's a great scene.
Modern Parenting Challenges
00:07:52
Speaker
For Stalyn and Garrett, do you guys feel freaked out, even though you know the science behind this, behind letting your kids have their own independence, free play, being able to learn on their own? Does it freak you out to kind of let go enough for that to happen to the extent that it needs to? I think so, being honest.
00:08:15
Speaker
i said because A lot of this is focused on the anxious generation, Gen Z, but he talks about the, and we talked about it in last episode, that this begins with parenting, so millennials and millennials parents, safetyism, helicoptering. It's it's not Gen Z's fault. This is multi-generational.
00:08:42
Speaker
And yeah, I can, I can experience that myself. The idea of, I don't know, I have a four and a half year old, so it's different, but I have my kids play out in the backyard by themselves, but it's gated where they literally can get out. And that's probably appropriate for them at four and a half and two.
00:09:01
Speaker
But when they're 10, yeah, it is weird for me to think about, yeah, just go out in the neighborhood and walk around and see at sundown. That is, that is weird for me to picture myself not worrying. Oh, they probably got hit by a car. We have a little, we have a pond by our house and no, they may have played in the pond and drowned and I think there's some family anxiety that I've been introduced to and that I experienced, but it can definitely be, I think the protectionism and safetyism is from a good place of, well, we don't want the worst case. The worst case scenario is this is the last time we ever see them, even though that may not be rational or a probability standpoint, very likely.
00:09:50
Speaker
the worst case scenario outweighs any benefits of free base play or whatever the author is stating. So it's, well, let me just supervise because they can have fun and I can make sure they're okay. But as I'm learning, I may not always be the best thing.
Influence of 'The Anxious Generation' on Parenting
00:10:14
Speaker
Age appropriate, of course. I don't think I should let my four year old walk around in the neighborhood by himself.
00:10:19
Speaker
But we lived in a neighborhood where... It's a funny concept. but i Then there's like a a gang of four-year-olds walking around. There's a lot of four-year-olds. Some little trikes. Just reminded me of Stewie from Family Guy. Exactly. the that's but it's No, I think so. Similar to Garrett, my daughter's even younger. She's one. And so with that, a lot of this feels very far off. A lot of the concepts and ideas of this book so far have been things that I've would say I had agreed with before, like really wanting to keep
00:10:56
Speaker
many kids that I would have away from social media and away from, I mean, really like wanting to build up independence, confidence, and um resilience in kids that we have. The idea though of unsupervised play being a part of that is not really something that I feel like I would have thought about independently outside of like hearing it in this book.
00:11:18
Speaker
I think that that feels a little bit different than a lot of the other concepts that have been coming up so far. um I like the idea of it, but yeah, also it feels like in practice, it's like, are kids doing that? If your kid does it, like who are they going to do that with? like Are any kids doing that anymore?
00:11:34
Speaker
That's a good point. we you know We were just in Colorado this past week and my daughter has been walking for like one month. And reading this book really influenced my decisions and actions while we were there, I would say. you know We're out on trails or by creeks and that kind of thing. And I made a very conscious effort to not say, be careful and to not like grab her whenever there's like slight danger.
00:12:01
Speaker
So, you know if she wants to try to walk in the water in the little creek, that's only a couple inches deep, so that's fine. But also you know being there still, but I think the idea of like building confidence, starting at this age, and I know Garrett, you even talked about last week about how you know it's the stuff that you do at a very young age that plays a role. And I mean, you hear so many parents, oh, be careful, be careful. and it's like you know, maybe, maybe that's something that I'm taking away from this already of like, I don't want to be overly cautious because yeah, it just develops fear.
Critical Developmental Periods in Children
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah. they Part of this kind of reminds me of the risk chapter in psychology of money, where basically you, you have to weigh the, the rewards and the risks. And oftentimes it's really the kind of like the, the fears that we have,
00:12:54
Speaker
that make us stray away from anything that could actually provide like a pretty awesome benefit compared to what you're putting into it. So Garrett, you kind of mentioned like the kind of 10 year old thing where, you know, you're, that's kind of far off. I wanted to mention that this chapter talked about sensitive periods for learning. Yeah.
00:13:15
Speaker
And I thought it was really interesting that he stated that the the human brain grows to 90% of its full size by age five. And then basically the rest of your childhood and early adulthood, your brain grows just another 10%. But all that time has spent just wiring and rewiring until you finally kind of got the right pathways wired that are based on kind of what happens and how you react and how you you know learn to think about things throughout your adolescence. And based on the studies he mentioned that you know for humans, there are critical development phases
00:13:59
Speaker
where kids are particularly receptive to learning, kind of like how a duckling will imprint on its mother or not if there's something else there. And for humans, it seems like ages 9 to 15 contain a lot of important sensitive periods for cultural and language learning. um but But this is also kind of corresponding. These ages kind of like overlap with when most kids get introduced to the internet somehow.
00:14:28
Speaker
um So I thought that was kind of interesting that he sort of made that comparison. And I guess, yeah, we, we all grew up running around outside at those ages. We weren't really on the internet hardly at all. And if it was, it was, it was awful. It was like.
00:14:48
Speaker
You know, every web page is going to take a minute to load and it's it's kind of boring. Like I'd rather go over to a friend's house and play a video game than do that. I think it's kind of how I was at nine to 15. I did not know before this book that.
00:15:04
Speaker
learning a new language after 14 pretty much means that you're going to have an accent with that language. yeah So not that part was interesting. I didn't even realize that that's kind of what I was saying. That is interesting. Yeah. And he was talking about the idea of if you if you move somewhere before, like if you've moved away from somewhere to a different area in the country, before that critically ages, you'll be whoever you move to, you'll associate with home. But if it's during those critical years, then you're going to associate like your new place as home, which I thought was interesting. I mean, I think that that does tell us about something about how our identity gets formed in those periods. I think that
00:15:48
Speaker
There are certain things that I can do in my life that I feel like my my identity was defined a lot in those years and some of the maybe negative things that I told myself, I don't feel like I learned better from until I was 26, 27.
00:16:07
Speaker
And so I think that was something when I was reading this I could relate to of like wow I feel like there is maybe some misconceptions I had about myself that um I held strong a lot through those through then through you know mid-twenties.
00:16:22
Speaker
I think we're going we're going to need to bring a Gen Z on here at the end of this podcast.
Gen Z's Online Language Learning
00:16:27
Speaker
Seriously, I think that'd be a good idea to get their opinion. because like says so like he He makes claims that like Gen Z is learning their other language primarily online. and so Then they're choosing emojis over face-to-face interactions.
00:16:43
Speaker
So if a Gen Z person is listening to this and disagrees, I want to know if they disagree with that or not. Like maybe bring on one of my nieces or nephew or something just to get an opinion. They're like, what? That's crazy. It's not everybody. There was an intern on our team at work and i ah Her dad read Psychology of Money and I shared the podcast with her and he listened to it. and We were talking about the current book we were on and I started asking her. and She said, yeah, my parents didn't let me get a cell phone till pretty late in my teenage years. and i was She said she was never allowed to have social media.
00:17:27
Speaker
And when she became an adult and can make her own decision, she's like, at that point, I didn't, I wasn't interested in it. So she's never had social media. So it's not like it's everybody. it's cool But yeah, that's cool. wow And she was, you know, she was top notch. So I'm sure that there's no coincidence there either.
Risky Play vs. Safetyism
00:17:47
Speaker
So chapter three is titled discover mode and the need for risky play and it delves deeper into human beings need to engage in discover mode, which is being motivated to seek risk and opportunity and defend mode.
00:18:03
Speaker
which means you're motivated by survival instincts or anxiety or fear. and this is needed Both of these are kind of needed to develop into healthy adults. The author explains how humans are anti-fragile, meaning that we increase in our capability to thrive as a result of stressors, shocks, mistakes, faults, attacks, and failures. He gives the example of our immune system.
00:18:28
Speaker
or tree roots, which grow strong only in response to strong winds. And this results in the tree having strong enough roots so that it doesn't fall over as it grows taller and heavier. However, parents are and increasingly removing discover and defend mode from the children's lives. Helicopter parenting, safetyism, and growing stances in rich, consulted cultivation, which is the belief that children's time must be filled with structured activities all the time,
00:18:57
Speaker
and the cultural breakdown of adult solidarity where other responsible, well-meaning adults don't get involved in helping look after others' kids in a community. Trust erodes societally as a result, and this all contributes to a decline. So when phones and screens are put in front of kids as a so-called solution, sleep deprivation, attention fragmentation, and addiction all result.
00:19:24
Speaker
So in order to kind of break that down, I know that was kind of like a dense portion of of the book that I just summarized, but in order to kind of break that down, I guess what this chapter is all about is just the fact that for millennia we've relied on sort of this loop where we as children venture out to an extent to where we've pushed the boundaries in our own mind And that triggers a switch between being in discover mode where we're excited to go out and explore and seek risk to something we're not familiar with. We get afraid or we have anxiety and then we kind of like zoom back to our home base in order to make sure that we are safe.
00:20:09
Speaker
That whole loop is is kind of, I think, what the author is talking about being disrupted. And I mean, you guys with kids can can probably tell me a little bit more. but ah like what you think but I believe that that's pretty accurate. I mean it seems like from what I've seen young kids or animals in general will always kind of push the boundaries until they're either stopped by their parents or they find something that's frightening or harmful and then they'll scream and run back to safety. That continues to go on during these
00:20:48
Speaker
years in which we are you know in the sensitive period of rewiring our brains.
Avoiding Risks and Developing Resilience
00:20:55
Speaker
What do you guys remember about growing up that now looking back seems like it was normal back then, but but when you think about it, it's actually pretty unsafe. Like, do you guys remember the types of playground equipment you used to play on that now would just basically be illegal? Do you remember having a bunch of rules at recess? I mean, I remember playing Red Rover and dodgeball. And I remember when it was winter time and we had to do gym class inside, we had those little scooter things that smashed everybody's fingers every time.
00:21:31
Speaker
um we I feel like we did a lot of stuff that was just kind of like supervised in a sense, but it was still inherently kind of dangerous. So are we just like a safetyism society now? No, I think that's yes that's kind of the point. Yeah. but So safetyism, if you want to define that, it's basically the continual adult supervision that's required to ins ensure play is only allowed within certain boundaries to where it doesn't get risky. Which, at that point, it kind of ceases to become play, because play play kind of just by nature is supposed to not have a whole lot of rules.
00:22:12
Speaker
yeah one of One of the things, too, that was discussed a lot in this chapter was the concept that kids are anti-fragile, which is basically being described in the comparative of the tree, where trees need wind to to grow roots properly. And kids are similar in that um they sometimes need to get knocked down.
00:22:30
Speaker
in order to become strong. And so I think that's where we see, you know I think some of the adversity that we might experience in the physical world and and the truly emotional world is where we we develop that strength. But you know as we mentioned in like the prior chapter, the in the digital world, in the virtual world, if you don't like something, if something hurts your feelings, you can leave.
00:22:55
Speaker
and you can leave a conversation you can turn off your computer but then there's also this kind of weird nuance for that whatever was said about you or that kind of thing if it was on some social media platform it's like forever existing and so it's this weird combination where it like.
Online Exposure and Gen Z's Mental Health
00:23:10
Speaker
if it's in person, it's it's it hurts for the moment, but it helps you grow stronger. But if it's online, it's kind of always sitting there. you know That form of bullying is, you know so as we hear through this, but also you know I think there's a lot of stuff that we've all seen, learned about that.
00:23:26
Speaker
Social media bull bullying seems to have some of ah the worst effects. And one of the things they talked about some of this chapter was just how the increase in psychiatric disorders has gone up and with this population. And really that started around 2010, 2012. You've got a chart in the book that shows that you know those numbers went from ah individuals with a psychiatric order went from 5% to close to 15%, really in a six year window. And so that's really where we see a lot of this going on.
00:23:54
Speaker
I think one thing that I also found really interesting in this chapter was, and you've already hit it on a little bit, Thomas, but the concept of lack of risk risky play in the physical world, but yet more dangerous play in the virtual world. Yeah. What did you all think about that? And do you have any thoughts on that? Well, yeah, I think we need to give historical context as well for the reason why parents have started to be become like this and they've liked the term stranger danger. I remember him talking about how, you know, stranger danger and all the pedophilia from the church yeah and boys scouts and all kinds of horror stories. So I mean, it's, you can't really, can't really blame parents for
00:24:43
Speaker
becoming more paranoid when all these kind of stories are coming out. That's a good point. And so I think that that historical context needs to be laid out before just as like a balance of, okay, this is why it's like this.
00:25:00
Speaker
But I mean, he gives that quote, though, that's, you know, it's almost like shows how then what happens in if we're kind of like not putting in a chance in the virtual world where I think it was a 10 year old who was quoted. She wrote an article. She wrote an essay in the Free Press. She was 14 year old and she was talking about how at age 10 is when she was first exposed to watch pornography or post-explores to pornography.
00:25:27
Speaker
And you know she ends with saying, where was my mother? She was likely in the next room making sure I was eating nine differently colored fruits and vegetables on the daily. And so I think there you see it's like, Adam, you're saying great intentions, but it just shows how the lack of the knowledge of the virtual world, yeah like how harmful that can be as like a parent if you're just like letting your kid go on to the virtual world. virtual world Again, it's kind of like growing up without it, though. The parents have no context of how harmful that can be really as a kid yeah because they never experienced that. So like to them, as long as the kid's not playing out in the street and getting hit, my car is like they feel like, oh, my kid's safer than if they're on the tablet in the next room.
Parental Guidance in the Digital Age
00:26:14
Speaker
At least they're there. You know, at least I can keep an eye on them, even if I really don't know what they're surfing on the web. So, I mean, both but I think both of you guys have really good points about that.
00:26:25
Speaker
I would just add, and I'm curious what you all think. I struggle with comments like that because I hear them a lot. We didn't know in the past, or this is the first generation. Parents didn't know when they gave their kids cell phones. I struggle with that because my parents did almost all of the things that this book and other books like would recommend.
00:26:54
Speaker
From the days of dial up, my dad had a like a covenant eyes, like internet blocker. I mean, naturally I would find ways around it, but it blocked all, you know, I mean, it blocked a lot. I mean, it really did. Like yeah when I say I got around it, it was, I would just say like PG 13, like very like, yeah, PG 13 stuff, which for a teen or, you know, at my age, a young teen, it was a big deal.
00:27:23
Speaker
But they they did that. And then I mentioned last week that they maybe keep the phone in the kitchen. I didn't have a computer in my room. I didn't have a TV in my room. And I think I sometimes just struggle. They didn't have they didn't have these books, quote unquote. They didn't have life before a cell phone yet. They took precautions.
00:27:48
Speaker
So are they an outlier or what? I don't know. Uh, it's hard for me to reconcile when I hear like, people just didn't know this is the first generation. It's like, yeah, but i have they were like, my, they were like, our son is a teenager. He's going to try to look at nudity if he gets a chance and nudity is on the way. I'm assuming that was, it was just like, they didn't need like 10 years of data and graphs to figure that out. But what do you, I mean, I don't know.
00:28:17
Speaker
what Do you see my conundrum there with those statements? It's no it's no excuse. You're totally right. Well, and maybe, and maybe really what it is, is like a movement away from, it's like another form of risky play. It's another form of like rebellion, like disobedience. Cause I mean, I think we can all like relate to the idea that in your teen years, in these definitive years, you have a desire to do things also that are just like what your parents don't want you to do. And so having connection to the internet is just like one other form to access that.
00:28:53
Speaker
But I think, I think it's a good point Garrett. I think, I mean, I think that it is kind of a, you know, it's a comical cop-out maybe. Do you think that's what it is? and Again, it's I'm not asking rhetorical questions. like I mean, I have a lot of respect for my parents. Again, I hated it when I was growing up, and now I'm planning to emulate it almost to a T. I think it's more complex than that, though, because today's technology is so much different. Today's culture that the kids are growing up in puts so much more pressure on them to be online all the time. So i I think you have a great point in terms of not letting that be an excuse to let your kids run wild online. But I do think
00:29:35
Speaker
you have a much harder time dealing with modern pressures than your parents probably did back then because like not everybody actually had a cell phone. It wasn't really normalized yet at our age, you know, at or at the young age that we were back then. Maybe.
Modern Parenting Dilemmas
00:29:51
Speaker
Should that answer, Garrett? I don't know. I mean, it still sounds like an excuse when I say it. So I think that hits on what I was saying earlier, though, that this book isn't about Gen Z. Do you know what I'm saying?
00:30:04
Speaker
Yeah, when we give kids a phone, it is for selfish reasons. When your kid is like, um I've done it when your kid is screaming. If I just give him a phone, he'll shut up. And then people won't look at me at this restaurant. And then you know, well what do you do? What do you what do you do when you're bored? What do I do when I get your phone?
00:30:29
Speaker
Pick up your phone. Oh, oh, okay. I give it to yourself. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah I give you what you're saying. Yeah. i And that goes back to what I was saying earlier is like, these things are like passed down. It starts with the adults. and So yeah, I don't know if it's just like, that's a good point. Good point. I think of a statement that I heard when open AI our chat GBT first came out and then there was a lot of the concern from the very companies that created OpenAI and how they went before Congress and testified and were like, you all really need to put parameters and implement laws. They were like, hey, we created this and now it might get out of control. So you need to put like guardrails on us.
00:31:21
Speaker
I don't know. it's It's just like kind of weird. You know what I mean? It really seemed like ah an odd thing. And it's like, just handle it yourselves. Why do you need, you know, so I think sometimes it's like, oh gosh, I just, I want easier parenting in the short term. So let me give you a phone. Let me put on three hours of TV or because then I can just do what I want or, you know, and it is hard. It's harder in the short term to not give into the easier things.
00:31:49
Speaker
But as we're seeing long
Is Parenting Harder Now?
00:31:50
Speaker
term, it's having consequences and. I don't think I buy, I don't think you're saying this, Thomas, but what you are saying, it kind of comes off to me as like, we're more advanced, like we're smarter than the generations of the past. So it's like, Oh, it's harder now than it was 20 years ago. I just don't know if I believe that there are different challenges.
00:32:20
Speaker
But my it's what is the social media today will be something else 20 years from now. The example I gave 20 years ago when we were growing up is TVs and computers in everyone's room.
00:32:36
Speaker
like there's always There's always going to be social pressure, and I think you hit on it, and it's a very key point that you said, Thomas, is a lot of what we do with our kids is us being impacted by our own peers. Well, all of my friends are doing it with their kids, so I don't want to be that lone parent that doesn't and my kids on the outside.
00:33:01
Speaker
so And that's, that's kind of, I think honestly the main pressure today that is different than maybe for our parents because our, like I had mentioned in the last episode, my, my parents had a screen time rule for us.
00:33:19
Speaker
And after we had looked at screens for so long, we had to turn it off. But the technology was still so limited to where, yeah, you could get around things or kind of like sneak around and try to watch more TV or be on the internet more. But there are just so many more ways today for that to occur. And then there's so much more pressure today for kids to be online. I mean, like,
00:33:43
Speaker
The main motivation for me for watching TV or playing video games when I was a kid was just basically to not be bored. It wasn't social. That's because it didn't exist yet, though. And I think that's probably where like.
00:33:57
Speaker
we might just disagree, which is fine. I like when we have these kinds of conversations, but it's just like, I'm not, I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's any easier or harder necessary for parents to to put their foot down today than it was back then. I'm just saying that the landscape is much different in which these kids are growing up and that has to be taken into account when you actually try to implement something. You know what I mean? Sure.
00:34:22
Speaker
I think, yeah, I agree with that. I think the only thing I was saying is every generation has their own deal, whether it's the radio in the 20s or the TV in the 40s or, you know what I mean? It sounds so, oh, black and white TV. But it's like, yeah, I mean, I had kids who, or I had friends who couldn't fall asleep. Like, did did you all fall asleep to the TV on? Like, I can't do that. I like. No, heck no. Did you, Thomas? No.
00:34:48
Speaker
No, but I remember like my parents had a TV in their bedroom and they would fall asleep. I had friends who would do that and I'm like, how is this possible? Like I'm only allowed an hour of TV a day or you know what I mean? Like it's like there's there have been screens. They just to your point, they look differently. But I think the social pressures, the peer pressure, the the desire to fit in, not have your kids be ostracized or Made fun of because they don't do that have this that everyone else. I think that is the same regardless of what the screen looks like or the Pressure of the but I feel like I'm being redundant. it So I'll stop it's a good conversation though Well, I like that I like that you zoomed out
00:35:30
Speaker
of Gen Z because we focus a lot on this one generation. And I think as somebody who's older, that's actually made me maybe not reflect on how these things affect me in real time as much like we did on in some other books that we've read. But we should be using this data, not only to kind of judge how You know, kids are growing up now and kids are going to grow up in the future, but also judge like, OK, well, these we know these are extremely detrimental. These technologies can be extremely detrimental during the sensitive parts of your life.
00:36:10
Speaker
But we still don't know like long term effects for people our age, people older than us, you know, people that retire and all they do is sit on their phones. Right. I mean, it it really affects every every age group yeah in different ways, probably. and And we still are in this.
Historical Reactions to New Media
00:36:27
Speaker
ah experiment, right? Like we're just starting to figure that out. And what you also said about the different time periods with different technologies where you have radio that gets invented and all of a sudden listening to a radio programs, the devil, and it's going to corrupt you. and And then you have color TV. And then that's the next thing that's going to rot your brain. And then you have, you know, it just goes on and on. the wipe so has every, I mean, has every generation that sees a new technology to grab our attention had people that were alarmist like the author of this book is. And saying the word alarmist kind of makes it seem like what this author is saying isn't true. I don't believe that. I think what he's saying is true. But yeah, I think every generation has its overreactions and fears.
Virtual Interaction vs. Reality
00:37:27
Speaker
There really is, though, something to be said about really there's been a movement from reality to a to a virtual world that you can and interact socially. Yeah. You can't interact with the TV. You can't interact with the radio in the same way. That's a big one. I think that it is a bigger transition. And yeah, who's to say there may not be something else like that in the future?
00:37:51
Speaker
One thing that kind of makes me sad, I don't know what your guys experience is when you go to the gym now, but in high school when I would lift at the gyms, ah some people may have like wire headphones in, but typically there was music playing over the entire gym speakers and it was like fairly engaging with the people you're around.
00:38:10
Speaker
And I just noticed now everyone's got their own headphones and like the gym can be completely silent and no one's talking to one another. It's kind of like sad. You ah you go to a gym and they don't play music. Well, it's the company gym. So it's like I go. Oh, i yeah, it's not. It's not like a.
00:38:28
Speaker
They just play advertisements for your company on... We love to work here. It's like going to a hotel gym, right? Yeah, hotel gym, yeah, for sure. But I feel like if you can train hard in a hotel gym, then like you're a beast. That's true. Just go into like that tunnel. Well, even if that music is on, the point being that people still got their own headphones in. Yeah. And there's not much engagement, but who cares? I'm rambling.
00:38:54
Speaker
Hey man, I've been working out of my clubhouse gym Mondays and Wednesdays and going to Baker box gym on Saturdays. That's awesome man. Kind of reminds me of a hotel gym though. Yeah. I feel like if you can do that though, it's like, that's a separate level of discipline.
00:39:12
Speaker
that like that you can train in a place that has that, you know, it's just like much less stimulus. and yes It's just good. It's a challenge for me to not want to go back to seeing you know back to my old gym and pick up a yeah yeah but pick up some heavy weights pick up some heavy weights, but I do that on Saturdays so that I don't have to, because my commute now is all wacky since I moved.
00:39:38
Speaker
Yeah. Do you think if you ah got a Bluetooth speaker and started blasting some tunes like at a regular interval every week at the complex gym, maybe put up some posters about how that's when you're going to have be working out that people would want to join and ah enjoy the hardcore atmosphere that you, the vibe that you put off? The house mix, house mix, or bass center.
00:40:05
Speaker
Yeah, there you I think you might get some takers on that, man. Yeah, I don't know if I'm going to like what's going to show up or not, but we'll see. Hey, man. Start the in-person community there and just see what happens. No, you're right. You're right. In-person community is a good thing. Yeah, it's huge.
00:40:28
Speaker
So, yeah, on to Chapter 4, which is titled Puberty and the Blocked Transition to Adulthood. Chapter 4 discusses the role both puberty and the adolescent years plays a young boy or girl's life to transition transition into adulthood. While not as typical in American society, some cultures and religions have formal rites of passage of transitioning into adulthood.
00:40:52
Speaker
All this to say, because an adolescent's brain once again experiences great plasticity, what teens experience is crucial for their maturation. Unfortunately, safetyism and smartphones both serve as experienced blockers, so traditional notable no milestones or experiences that first occur in a teen's life such as alcohol consumption, sex, getting a driver's license, and working have all plummeted over the last couple of decades.
00:41:18
Speaker
Do you guys remember any anything that you would
Rites of Passage and Independence
00:41:21
Speaker
consider a rite of passage? I know I know in the book it mentioned a lot of these things are a lot more closely tied with heavily you know religious communities and traditions. But as like the typical American kid who grew up in the 90s and early 2000s, what do you guys remember regarding like a a rite of passage that was is just kind of sticks out in your mind of like, OK, I felt a lot more confident in myself to be independent at this point or something. For me, it was my driver's license. I just could not wait till I was 15 to take the test to get my permit. And then I remember I was so upset that my annual summer Boy Scout camp
00:42:07
Speaker
Ran through like over my birthday when i turn sixteen so that i couldn't take my driver's test right when i turn sixteen i had to wait till like a week after and it confounds me and blows my mind when i hear colleagues who have kids who are teens oh yeah they they have no interest in getting a driver's license.
00:42:31
Speaker
And to me, I was so excited. That was a huge like I am 16. I can like get in my like my own car. That was another part of it working, saving up for a car.
00:42:44
Speaker
and just getting out and driving. That was a huge one for me personally. And then he didn't really talk about it. I was old for my grade. Thomas, I know you were too, but I was 18 in high school. So 18 was a big year for me too. I remember going to buy a couple of lottery tickets and I bought a couple cigars. I was like, I'm old enough to do this.
00:43:09
Speaker
So those were the two for me, that but it's not really a rite of passage, just being able to buy a lottery ticket, but it's a notable age that comes with new responsibilities, I guess, how to spend money in new ways and legally.
00:43:27
Speaker
So I think a one actually is a confirmation. I don't know if you guys went through that, like a confirmation through church. Yeah. it's a good yeah and did and her And her Methodist church and in junior high, but I was. Yeah. Maybe like a baptism would be one maybe. Remember when you did that? I was sprinkled as a baby. Yeah. Me too.
00:43:49
Speaker
so I think the the first thing that I think of was like the first time doing like an overnight trip with just friends and we're going trout fishing ah with some of our friends Adam and I don't think you were there but we went trout fishing and in typical like I think we were either juniors or seniors in high school, but in typical like dumb high school boy way, we didn't realize that it was set to rain the whole night and we were going to trout fishing and we were going to camp and the stream that we were going to fish actually flooded and we got woke up at like 2 a.m. in the middle of the night and had to pack up all of our stuff and drive back home. But I think that was definitely one where it was we had to drive like two two hours away.
00:44:34
Speaker
And um so I'd probably either been 16 or 17 and yeah, set up a camp, bring all our food and that kind of thing. So I think that was a big one. And that's one and I know that I would like to incorporate with my kids is kind of like these more independent things. I was thinking about Because in this chapter two, he mentioned the idea of like initiation into a fraternity, and so obviously we're on a fraternity. And it did make me reflect a little bit on what makes that unique and what makes that in sort of way, how does that help as a rite of passage? And some of the things ah that it made me realize were there's a component of like kind of mystery to it. There's something either physically or mentally hard that you have to do.
00:45:14
Speaker
um And then you're doing it with a group of people that you all haven't done it, but the other people, there's people ahead of you or older than you that have done it. And I do think that it made me more thankful for having had some experience like that. I think that as he mentions in the book, you know, a lot of Greek life, ah you know, fraternities, sororities, maybe fall short on some of the and initial ideas of creating an initiation as a rite of passage. um But I think it's a cool concept. I think that and it made me, ah there's a book, I have not read the book, but I've heard the author do some interviews. His name is John Tyson. He wrote a book called The Intentional Father.
00:45:55
Speaker
and from when his like boy was 13 years old through 18. He had like a series of Eagle Scout Boy Scout tasks. Each year he had to like do certain things, check off certain boxes that were you know physical, mental, emotional, um and it like ended with him having to do like a you know a couple of week long backpacking trip on his own where he had to like figure out like all of the transportation to get there and those kind of things. and I mean, I think that what I was really struck on this is how those things build independence in a way that that maybe we're losing sight of a little bit. And he kind of gives an outline in this chapter of like, you know...
00:46:34
Speaker
what it might look like to help someone, you know, move through stages. Because I think as, you know, as he mentions, we, you know, kids will find their own way to essentially have rights of passage. And that may not be the safest, but I think if you have parental role models that are are playing this role, I think it's really, can be a really cool and powerful thing to build connection, but also to build competence with with someone. and I look at that and I'm like, I wish I had more of that. I'm very thankful for my parenting that I had, but that's something that I want to incorporate. And, you know, it just seems like it would be a very powerful thing for kids of all ages, really. What about, uh, what was your guys first job?
00:47:17
Speaker
I thought of that too. I mowed lawns, but i I remember getting my first W2 job. It was at a coffee and gelato place. Nice. I mowed lawns too, and then I also worked at Target. My first job, cashier. I remember that. Cashier, cardboard. The khakis and red shirts. So hot that summer.
00:47:42
Speaker
I promised everyone was doing it. I'm a lawn stew. And then I worked at the custard shop, Andy's for my first W2 job. Yeah. Yeah. It was like one of the first locations back in the day in Columbia. For me, I think getting a car was definitely one. I think becoming on like, it's like being part of a high school sports team was one for me.
00:48:07
Speaker
Yeah. Because this chapter talked a lot about like the differences of traditional rites of passage between different genders, too. And I think for us guys, being part of ah something like a sports team, which is very physical,
00:48:24
Speaker
And you feeling like other guys your age are kind of depending on you to put in a lot of effort, a lot of focus and take things seriously. For me, i think I think that was a big one. Like once I was somewhat respected for the effort that I put in or like the the outcomes that we had from a sports perspective, I felt a lot more confident in myself at that age than I had before. Were you more respected for the wrestling or the trombone?
00:48:55
Speaker
Well, most I was most respected when I did them both at the same time. I'll just say that. Yeah, that's an awesome picture. One other one that I thought of as you were talking there, Thomas was a girl that I dated in high school. She had said that before we could start dating that I had to ask her dad if I could date her.
00:49:14
Speaker
And I think that was one that really felt like this big movement away from a kid or a teenager to being more of an adult. and Adam, I know you're laughing because you know what know I'm thinking of. I'm sitting here kind of reflecting on it a little bit. And I remember I met him at a Panera. He asked, he said, let's go get coffee.
00:49:30
Speaker
I'm a 17-year-old, meeting a guy who's in his mid-50s, which is yeah it' a good thing, but it's like i I'm there to basically like hey ask him, and and he's going to ask me a series of questions. and like I'm thinking back, I'm like, what did I order? I probably ordered like some drink that had like whipped cream or something. that's probably like so funny and comical to look back on now of this you know father who I think it's a good thing you know it's a good thing that he that he desired that and his his daughter wanted of that um but that's something I think it was like oh I think that's another can be another rite of passage so what did he say yeah yes yes yeah
00:50:09
Speaker
Something I was trying to look up when you were talking about their right of passage, but the fraternity, stainless and the benefits that that can provide something tangible. I can't find the data point through a quick search on Google, but I am an Eagle Scout and the national average. Yeah. Yeah. The national average. Yeah. Garrett says stud man. Oh yeah.
00:50:35
Speaker
You know it the national average of people who start scouts and become an eagle Again, according to a quick google search at six percent. There's you would chant Yeah, cha there's there's multiple guys. Yeah, but the the area in the country like in the midwest the summer camp the same one where I missed my getting my driver's license when I right when I turned 16 was had this And again, this is going to sound very politically incorrect in our day and age. They had a something called the tribe of Micasa, which was it probably is some fairly strong cultural appropriation of Native American rituals and stuff like that. But it was like a membership that you could only
00:51:29
Speaker
Join the tribe through literally years of attendance and then after you've been in attendance to that summer camp for three or four years you have to do some pretty hard things this is outside this is not to get your eagle this is in addition. It's just a separate thing at this camp so we had to do like.
00:51:49
Speaker
We had to fast for 24 hours. There's a 10 day camp. We had to do like a ah vow of silence for 24 hours and we had to camp out under the stars in silence. So like you had a buddy, but you couldn't talk to him and you had just had a tarp and said to make it work. And then there was this ceremony. Again, it's probably pretty cringe worthy if I think too much about it now, but for the sake of this story, I won't.
00:52:16
Speaker
And it was like pretty scary and they would kind of hazy a little bit like you're going to have to jump off the ledge, which was like this literally 200 foot drop into the lake where the camp was. And none of that happened. But when you were in, you got you know this necklace and you could build up through if you went to camp four years, five years, six years, move up the ranks.
00:52:41
Speaker
And I can't find the data point, but from what I recall, the percentage of scouts who are in that tribe, that that program, the percentage of those scouts who earn Eagle is significantly higher than the national average.
00:52:58
Speaker
So I think that's a, again, I don't have the data point, so I'll just have to say fairly larger. I think that's a good example of an A group and a B group where here's just the baseline average. But if you include this rite of passage where, hey, you're in it's giving you more reason to be part of the group,
00:53:18
Speaker
when you you know a boy becomes a man or a girl becomes a woman, there's this definitive moment. There's more buy-in, there's more self-pride and what do you know, the percentage of achieving that eagle and sticking through it because you're doing this other initiation alongside it is keeping you in the program longer.
00:53:39
Speaker
That takes me back to why these things are so meaningful and kind of like a psychological or anthropological view of it. You know, Stalin had mentioned just kind of the fact that these kind of things are, or I think, Stalin, you mentioned it, these kind of things are kind of goes back a long way from like a tradition perspective. we talk You talked about that in the book, just how right that's just something that societies do. And and and why I mean, I guess my question is like, what itch are we trying to scratch as humans to where we've created these rituals and these phases of, he mentioned the phases of separation, uh, liminality, which is, I guess, separating yourself from your childhood stuff you were interested in and then reincorporation into kind of your new identity as more of an adult and like,
00:54:35
Speaker
you know What is it about that that is so necessary for us to succeed as a young adult you know trying to transition into adulthood? Is is it an emotional thing? yeah stanlan I think I was trying to think of the fact that you mentioned how it feels sacred or it's very serious. you know I do feel like that comes from a very deep emotional spot more than like a rational one.
00:55:00
Speaker
I mean, obviously I don't have like a, that's a big question and it's a really good question, but I think like I can speak to my experience where like in life we're going to have to like transition. We're going to have periods where we have to transition how we do something, whether it's, you know, getting married, but becoming a parent.
00:55:17
Speaker
whether it's starting a new job, buying a home, dealing with like serious life conflicts, dealing with death of family. And I think that whenever we... you know It's like when we impose these these intentional changes on our life, I think that that helps us to better prepare us for those situations and you know I think of for me in the last year, obviously a big change with but having ah having a daughter, having a first child, but also you know making the choice to change career path. And that was something that is a very challenging thing to you know both from a making it happen standpoint, but also from a you know all the so all the details that went into it, but also all the ways that it caused stress and anxiety for me. And I'd like to think that prior bouts of these
00:56:10
Speaker
you know, forced inconveniences or these prior periods where I've been able to transition in things like we're helpful in that.
Digital Age and Rites of Passage
00:56:19
Speaker
I guess bringing it back to the book, the point of talking about these rites of passage is that when you live online, there are no ages anymore. You are everybody who's online is from the perspective of the internet the same age now.
00:56:36
Speaker
anybody can get onto any website they want, they can see anything they want, whether that's proper content for a 10 year old or person that's matured. And also it kind of compares that to the fact that the rights of passage that we culturally and religiously typically had, they're just not there in the same way they were in the past. So those two things kind of coinciding I think the author's trying to say makes kids a little bit confused about like, what's the meaning of this? what What am I supposed to do now? At what age can I move on to the next thing? Am I an adult yet? Am I still a kid? You know, like, have I left this behind or what's going on? What do you guys think of that? I mean, yeah, and but but I think the default isn't the default is I am still a kid.
00:57:26
Speaker
Yeah, I guess because there's nothing to trigger you forward, right? But yet you're encountering these adult things. You're feeling like you're being exposed to adult stuff, but yet you're not really kind of naturally going through that in the same way, maybe in the past.
00:57:45
Speaker
you know i think of I mean, the classic that you know we've all seen, it's like the it's the comparison of like ah a 13-year-old picture of someone now versus a 13-year-old picture of someone from the 90s or early 2000s. And every everyone who's you know even if they're 20 years old, they're gonna be embarrassed what they looked like in the picture who they're when they were 13. But now with like Photoshop and all these things you can do, it's like 13-year-olds look like adults.
00:58:14
Speaker
or they can if they want to. okay ah This chapter also talks about myelination.
Myelination and Learning
00:58:22
Speaker
Well, myelin is the tissue around nerve cells. It's like the fatty tissue around nerve cells. but So he's talking about the concept of like how like a lot of the wiring happens in this period, and like I think he gives the quote, like nerves that nerves and neurons that fire together, wire together, and how, yeah, go ahead though.
00:58:39
Speaker
Oh, I just thought it it tied in with what we talked about in the last chapter where you have these sensitive periods and then once you get past that point, my alienation occurs and kind of locks in whatever you've learned or or not learned from that period. you know So you want to get all the good lessons in as fast as you can during that period or else it's a lot harder to learn or unlearn after the fact.
00:59:01
Speaker
That made me think about um digital addiction because I know that's a growing trend that people are getting addicted to video games, the internet, social media. And then um ah I'm assuming what happens is that's during a highly plastic phase of their brain development and then myelination occurs and those pathways get set in their are ways to where they're like, it's a lot harder for them to change after that, I would assume.
00:59:25
Speaker
know The last thing I wanted to mention was the the visual of a smartphone being compared to a cuckoo bird bird. And I didn't know this, but a cuckoo bird will lay its egg in another bird's nest.
00:59:43
Speaker
And either the cuckoo bird that lays the egg pushes the other eggs out so that the mother that it laid its egg in feeds the cuckoo birds young or the cuckoo birds young itself pushes the other eggs out. I can't remember which one, but he was comparing that to the fact that smartphones in the internet pretty much pushes the attention of these, you know, young users.
01:00:08
Speaker
towards the internet and pushes out all the real life experiences they could be having in the same time that they're on the internet. I thought that was an interesting visual.
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:00:23
Speaker
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Books Brothers podcast. Join us next time as we discuss part three, chapters five through eight from the book, The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. If you haven't yet, get the book so you can follow along with us. If you've enjoyed listening or benefited from our conversation, please subscribe, give us a review and share with a friend that you want to connect with.
01:00:48
Speaker
Lastly, we would love to hear your thoughts. You can reach us by email at connect at booksbrotherspodcast.com or on Instagram