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S5.E4 - The Anxious Generation - Ch. 9 - Conclusion
46 Plays2 months ago
Garrett leads our discussion of Part 4: “Collection Action for Healthier Childhood” and the Conclusion from The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt.
- Part 4 recap (2:06 - 7:45)
- Which author’s recommendations for healthier childhood do you like best? (7:46 - 32:25)
- How much do you agree or disagree with the statement Haidt addresses as it relates to technology / social media use: “I agree with making changes, but it’s too late”, and why? (32:26 - 42:07)
- What is one thing you plan to apply from this book in your community (family, church, neighborhood, school, etc)? (42:08 - 52:28)
- The guys share what’s next for the podcast, including our first ever panel interview, as well as the next book (52:29 - 54:48)
Additional resources
- Link to Let Grow: here
- Link to aligned organizations to Let Grow: here
- Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It by Richard V. Reeves - link
- “This Relationship is Destroying Your Family” by Dad Tired podcast - link
- September is National Suicide Prevention Month. We all can help prevent suicide. Learn how here.
- If you or someone you know is in crisis, you can call or text 988 to reach the national Suicide & Crisis Lifeline and connect with a trained crisis counselor. You can also text HOME to 741-741 to reach the Crisis Text Line.
We’ll see you in two weeks for our first even panel interview! Join us as we speak with a Licensed Professional Counselor and a Pediatrician to discuss topics from The Anxious Generation even further.
When we return in October, we’ll read Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae by Steven Pressfield. You can buy the book on Amazon by clicking here.
You can also borrow it at your local library. Don’t have a library card, or unsure where your local library is? Search on Google Maps, or find your local library by clicking here.
Follow us on Instagram @booksbrotherspodcast
Email us at [email protected]
Please subscribe and give us a review! We would really appreciate it.
See you in two weeks! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
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Transcript
Introduction and Book Overview
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome back to the Books Brothers podcast, the podcast where longtime friends spread across the country reconnect over the pages
00:00:35
Speaker
We are currently reading through the anxious generation, how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness by Jonathan Haidt. This week we'll be discussing the final part four, collective action for healthier childhood. But before we dive in, let's take a quick break to listen to a word from our sponsors.
Sponsor Message
00:00:58
Speaker
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00:01:19
Speaker
What are you waiting for? Pick up the phone and call our hotline. We'll hook you up with one of our third world therapists. No, they aren't real therapists, but they can help. And we're trained in one of our call centers for at least two weeks. They'll attempt to understand your so-called problems and respond by telling you how insignificant they are. Lost your dog? Well, at least your entire village isn't facing famine and a cholera outbreak at the same time. Having trouble getting to sleep because your air conditioning broke?
00:01:49
Speaker
Most third world therapists don't even have electricity yet. Ignorance is bliss. Third world therapy. You have problems? We disagree. You just need an attitude adjustment.
00:02:04
Speaker
Let's go.
Panel Discussion on Children's Mental Health
00:02:05
Speaker
All right. Welcome back. Before we hop in and discuss the last part of the book, I did want to call out this will be the last discussion episode of the book, but in two weeks we will release a special episode, our first ever panel interview where we have guests on the show. We will have a licensed professional counselor.
00:02:28
Speaker
specializing in child and family therapy as well as a pediatrician on the call and we will discuss a lot of the topics in this book and their experience and their everyday careers and how it pertains to their interactions with their clients and patients. So we hope you join us and we're excited for the panel and excited to interview them and hear what they have to say.
00:02:55
Speaker
All right, this last part of the book, it provides some clear examples and recommendations of what three specific sectors of society can do right now to affect change positively for improving children's experiences growing up. The first is government and tech companies.
Recommendations for Government and Schools
00:03:11
Speaker
You kind of combine them together, schools, and then third is parents.
00:03:16
Speaker
I'm just gonna recap basically the entire four chapters and then we can, we'll just kind of talk about it because they're shorter chapters, very specific guidance. So we'll just go one by one. The first sector, yeah, again, combines government and tech companies into one.
00:03:33
Speaker
For governments, policies need to be updated and strict enforcement should be implemented for teen use online. So first, the age for someone to be able to have a social media account should be increased to 16. So three years older than today's current 13 year old requirement.
00:03:49
Speaker
then there must be stricter enforcement for tech companies to actually verify that a person is 16. Currently all someone has to do is simply check a box stating he or she is 13 or older and that's it. there You're able to go onto the website, create a social media account, et cetera.
00:04:08
Speaker
Tech companies should also create more safeguards with easier user experience for parents to implement restriction features on phones and computers. So they exist today, no doubt, but they can be very difficult to actually implement on the phone.
00:04:25
Speaker
But the work isn't solely in the virtual world. While governments should introduce more restrictive internet access for young people, they should also narrow and clarify what neglect laws exist in their jurisdictions. This will free parents from worrying as much about getting in trouble for allowing their children to play in what historically was considered safe environments.
00:04:48
Speaker
Lastly, more direction and encouragement should be given to schools and education environments to promote more recess time and more vocational programs, especially for boys.
00:04:59
Speaker
So then there's school for schools. It was really simple. There was essentially two main points phone free schools and increased playful experiences at those schools. The author clarified what phone free means because a lot of schools say they have phone free. They're a phone free school right now, but they're really not. This does not mean.
00:05:20
Speaker
not allowing students to be on their phones during class only, rather schools should require phones be placed in a phone locker or lockable phone pouch. I actually do this when I go on my licensing work trips and we go see Disney never before seen footage of a new trailer of a new movie. We have to literally put our phone in a little pocket sleeve and it's locked and you only get it unlocked when you exit the auditorium. So we do this for Disney and Paramount, we can do this for our schools. This would mean students would not be on their phone at all the entire school day, forcing them to interact with each other in between class breaks at lunch, et cetera. And then on the playfulness part, more recess and better playgrounds that include loose parts or junk, natural elements, and fewer rules.
Parents' Role in Creating Healthy Environments
00:06:13
Speaker
Lastly, the parents.
00:06:15
Speaker
The author provided age range appropriate ideas and recommendations for how parents should raise their children, including screen time recommendations per age group and ways to better engage your older children. ah One common thread I saw across every age range, spend intentional time with your kids and spend time outside.
00:06:34
Speaker
All of these chapters and recommendations are based with a premise as the title of part four, collective action. So being the only parent to not give your kid a smartphone in elementary school feels hard. Advocating that your children's school is completely phone free is daunting.
00:06:51
Speaker
However, the author provides websites and social groups in the US that you can join with other like-minded parents who share similar values as you. Once a large enough group exists, you take collective action together. Knowing you aren't alone and working together with others is the best and likely only way to create meaningful positive change in your community. I'll try to put some of those in the show notes as well, the links that the author provides. So, concluding the entire book.
00:07:20
Speaker
The author finishes the book by aptly naming the conclusion, bring childhood back to earth as the introduction of the book you may recall was called growing up on Mars. By speaking up and linking up, we can create change and provide future generations better experiences growing up in the virtual and physical world than the one Gen C is experiencing with social media right now.
00:07:45
Speaker
All right, so that was the recap of the entire section. And it was a lot, but it was also very compact, a lot of good stuff. Which recommendation across any sector did you like the most from the author on ways that we can improve things?
00:08:04
Speaker
I'll kick it off. I won't give any, uh, a specific one, but I'll say I really enjoyed his, was it a Hawaiian parable or, uh, I think, or it was like a Polynesian proverb of fishing for minnows when you're standing on a whale of the solutions. Oftentimes are literally right before you, but we try to overcomplicate things and we're fishing for minnows when.
00:08:33
Speaker
Becoming a phone free school is very easy. And you can implement right now and that would cause drastic positive changes in students lives. So I thought that analogy of standing on, we're standing on whales currently. We're looking for minnows when these big solutions are right there, literally below our feet.
00:08:53
Speaker
I agree. I think two and three were definitely the most easy to implement and the most, in my opinion, likely to have an outsized effect on kind of turning back the clock in terms of technology. Governments and tech companies can only do so much and even then If the people that are spending time with these kids who are responsible for these kids personally aren't going to monitor and sort of do what they know is best for them, then the things that governments and tech companies do won't make that big of a difference. So to me, I don't know about you guys, but I kind of feel like for i mean these solutions for schools and parents,
00:09:37
Speaker
would be a big relief in terms of how difficult it is to keep kids paying attention in schools with phones. You take them away, it makes everybody's job easier and produces better results. ah Same with parenting. You have parents overcomplicating, I think in a lot of ways, their Control over their own kids and trying to put so much effort into helicoptering Give them a break let them have their you know Have it be socially normal to let their kids go and play and have some freedom and it's actually easier to parent that way as well I would assume so I think it's a win-win for both schools and and and parents as well doing these things
00:10:20
Speaker
Isn't it crazy that one of the recommendations is like to advocate for more recess as a kid? Didn't we love recess? Yeah. Get out and to play and to hang out with your friends and play games, kickball, all those things. I wonder what a recess for a sixth grader looks like right now. Is it them all just going and huddling around each other and like.
00:10:44
Speaker
sending each other snapchats of them sending each other chat snapchats. Like, is that what it looks like today? It almost seems silly that that we would have to advocate for like kids being kids and playing rather than trying to curb their addiction. That is like we talked about last week. It's like a generational or not not a generational. It's like a societal ah addiction at the same time. But I think, yeah, it really starts in the home too. I think you get it right in the home.
00:11:14
Speaker
If everybody gets it right in the home, right, then then going to school and not being addicted to your phone while you're at school can be more reasonable or ah achievable, attainable. I like how he mentioned Richard Reeves book of boys and men. The author mentioned it a couple of times and boys and men are struggling right now in ways that I think a lot of people maybe don't realize. I read this book maybe a year ago and it talked about recess and it talked about how females or young girls are typically way better at sitting still in a room and paying attention for long periods of time than the young boys are. And I think recess, especially for boys, especially for boys who maybe have a lot of energy or act out during class.
00:12:00
Speaker
is actually going to reverse a lot of that behavior more than in some situations, the punishment for acting out as withholding recess, which the author mentioned was actually the worst thing you could do for a kid like that that needs more playtime. And actually enough boys and men holding all boys back a year so that they're more developmentally in line with the girls.
00:12:24
Speaker
that they might be a year younger than the girls in their class, but they'll be more likely to be able to sit still and pay attention ah was one of his recommendations on how to make things a little bit easier on at least boys growing up. That's an interesting thought.
00:12:41
Speaker
I would just say as a response to Rob and your comment, Thomas, as a father of two boys and thinking of just raising kids in general, I think more recess time is fairly counterintuitive to me. I would say that's been something where my mind has been changed since I've read the book because I think of my experience living abroad and seeing how much these kids are in school.
00:13:08
Speaker
from age three and how much they study at night. And oftentimes I'm like, man, we kind of slack here in America. We need to spend more time in books. We need to spend more time. I wouldn't say cut out recess entirely, but a lot of the things that he was saying about adding more recess was pretty counterintuitive to me. So I think a lot of times there's this inner competition. I don't know, Matt, if you feel that at all, but you don't want your kids to get behind the other kids. So it's like, well, shoot, the way to not have them be behind their own peers is to make sure they're doing homework and getting a tutor and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. More playtime is not at the top of my list on ways to help my kids thrive in a school specific setting. Before I read this book,
00:14:00
Speaker
Yeah, I don't want my kids to fall behind, but Emily is it was a teacher, elementary teacher. She's just taking a break while our kids are young and she's going to go back, but she's been advocating for more recess for years. She sees it in a classroom every day and how kids get so distracted. They just can't focus for a really long period of time. And so having that recess time is extremely valuable for the kids to get back on track so that they can learn better. And also for the teachers too. The teachers, their time is being cut short for a time that they have to prepare your lessons to work with kids individually. It seems like an administration just keeps piling more and more work on these teachers. And so they don't have the time to really prepare their lessons for the kids.
00:14:57
Speaker
If there's more recess time, teachers have more time to prepare too. We just sent our oldest to kindergarten this year. Their elementary has two recesses throughout the day from nine to four for 15 minutes each. 15 minutes is not long. What? You're still picking teams at that point. Yeah. Still picking your nose. It's nothing. That's not hardly a break at all.
00:15:27
Speaker
You just get some energy out for a little bit, but you're like, you know and go sprint yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Emily, she's a strong advocate for.
00:15:38
Speaker
more recess because it does help them develop better and focus. And I think, I don't know if it was mentioned in the book or not. I don't remember. I think one of our indicators compared to other countries is testing and a lot of kids just aren't good testers. So we're basing a lot of these results on one test.
00:16:00
Speaker
Also, does taking a test make you a good citizen when you get older? Does it make you smart? Does it make you a good person? Do you guys remember those like state writing things that we had to do? They'd have us write about a story or whatever. Do you remember those?
00:16:15
Speaker
Uh, like what, like, what was the prompt? What do you mean? It was just like every year they had us do this like state writing thing that we had to like tell a story and explain the story. And I always remember talking about, it was like my eighth birthday or something.
00:16:33
Speaker
And we went to this pizza place and my cousins, they jacked up my pizza and basically made me eat it. And I always talked about how I got diarrhea on my birthday okay in your lastticir writing exam.
00:16:51
Speaker
What? Yeah. And I'm sure I misspelled diarrhea too. Cause I probably still can't spell it. That's an eight. That's an eight for entertainment. It's so funny thinking back on my eight year old Robbie talking about getting diarrhea for a state state writing exam. like Who is this kid? like He could pay attention long enough to actually write about something is making about diarrhea.
00:17:22
Speaker
Every little boy is obsessed with that. So, Matt, with what you with what you said about recess, though, between this book and then other, I don't know, I just heard a lot of places about the benefits of recess and play and that kind of thing. And so, I mean, everything you're saying, I would say, is always what I've heard ah in recent years. And I'm i'm curious, Garrett, do you feel like this book changed your mind with that then? Because it sounds like you would have been kind of anti-recess in the past.
00:17:50
Speaker
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Did this change your mind? Yes, I am i am pro more recess. Yeah. did you got did you Did you feel like you don't like recess because you got picked on for your hair color when you were a kid?
00:18:08
Speaker
No, no.
Managing Kids' Screen Time
00:18:10
Speaker
I have a lot of memories on you, man. His nipples. i What kind of recess is that? One too many titty twisters and I just put me back in the classroom. Garrett's just flashing people on the playground.
00:18:29
Speaker
But I will say one of the best ways to make sure that your kid doesn't fall behind is to work with them at home. Like you guys were saying, it it starts in the home, spend time with your kid, teach them, help them learn. Don't just sit them in front of a TV or social media, sit down with them and help them learn what they're supposed to be learning.
00:18:53
Speaker
I'm curious, Matt Garrett, how much time do your kids spend in front of a screen a day? Depends on the day. If they're having a bad day, we might let them watch one movie. So however long it is. You guys, it's a screen time average last week. What would your average we meant for the kids alone? An hour, an hour a day. yeah Probably less on average. Pretty good.
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah, I would say before, before pre-k started, they would be less than 30 minutes a day. We try to take a technology Sabbath. So on Sundays, we like, I'm not on my phone. Um, we don't watch anything. You guys are going to laugh as you should, but trying to figure out how to implement a 24 hour, uh, tech fast with football season starting. But I think I'm going to commit to doing that. Mine is chief scenes, right?
00:19:44
Speaker
you know know i'm I'm thinking of how to do that. Like, wait, Garrett, you're saying on the Sabbath still. Maybe. Well, yeah. So like it might be Saturdays and it's like, yeah, I just don't watch any college football or something like that. But like a day where it's like, Hey, we're we're just going to stay off the screen. So, but what, since pre-K has started, uh, I have to pick my son up at three 15, but I still have my workday. So part of it's been like, Hey, this is brand new. He's not having naps now. And Hey, just turn on a show.
00:20:17
Speaker
while i finish my workday so he's watching like an hour to hour twenty on monday's and friday's and then i don't know how much my mother-in-law let's watch i should probably ask but yeah it's we try to limit it to like one hour per day but then we don't watch anything on sundays and i don't know what they're watching tuesday wednesday thursday so it's definitely under an hour a day Gotcha. On average, but for the little guy, the two and a half year old, it's probably 20 minutes a day on average, maybe 30. That's less than I even watched.
00:20:51
Speaker
We're really, we're really into a Royal's highlights right now, almost completed a four game sweep of the guardians. I don't know if you like, we are like, we might actually go to the playoffs and uh, not for first place right now. Right. Graham Graham loves baseball. And so of course that means Clark loves baseball and I'll, I'll give the MLB credit. They do an incredible eight to 10 minute recap on YouTube every day of the previous game.
00:21:16
Speaker
And they like do it chronologically so you can kind of like follow along who's going to win, who's going to lose. And it's just been a really bonding time. You guys were talking about playing super smash together. Like we'll watch the games together and they love Bobby Witt, Jr. He is their favorite player. They want to see every, they're like, where is he? he Every time wins Bobby Witt hitting again.
00:21:38
Speaker
and Salvi. And that's like a bonding thing. So there's at least 10 minutes a day because nowadays I'm like, we got to watch the highlights, but it's a very bonding experience. But yeah, we try to limit it for sure. I think you're doing good. Anyone else have any thoughts on like bringing it back to any specific recommendation? So I'll actually I'll push a little bit deeper. That sounds weird. Sorry. I'll probe a little bit further. That's that that's not even better. not that's better
00:22:09
Speaker
no I asked, I asked which specific recommendation did you like the most? And Thomas, you answered what your two favorite of the three sectors were, which is a great discussion for practicality's sake. Let's get very practical. What is a specific recommendation that the author Jonathan Haidt pose that you all like the most? We don't even have to like dive into it per se. I like phone free schools. I really like that.
00:22:38
Speaker
I like keeping social media out of their lives until they're at least 16. Okay. Yeah. What was the pact that different 10 parents could make together? What was that called? Do you remember that? That was like the collective action group. I'll put those into that. Basically, 10 families all agreed that they wouldn't give their kids phones until a certain age and that they would also be able to go play with each other and not be like the weird one without the phone in their group of friends. I thought that was really cool.
00:23:08
Speaker
That's great. I like the concept of more outdoors time. That's one thing, even you know Daphne, she's 13 months old and she's so much more easily entertained just by being outside than by anything inside.
00:23:20
Speaker
I like to phone free schools, put them in a locker or a locked bag. Yeah. That or the no social media until 16 or even later, honestly, let them graduate high school. So I do like the no social media until 16 a lot. I just think it's going to be harder to actually enforce as parents. Kids are going to be kids. Like we've been saying, if they really want to get on, they'll find a way.
00:23:49
Speaker
I think the, I would disagree only in that there are lots of apps, at least on the Androids. I know of one called Bark where you literally see everything on the phone that you pay like the account for. So you would know, yeah, I'm sure there's a way to get around it. Like I shared a couple of weeks ago with my dad's internet blocker, but it would, it still covered a lot.
00:24:19
Speaker
And I think parents could do a lot more. I think my pessimism there is government and tech where tech is going to, I mean, he interviewed, uh, why am I drawing a b blank? facebook ceo yeah zuckerberg 10 years ago, Hey, how how are you verifying the kid's age? And he said, we're working on that. And he said right before I wrote this book, 10 years later, I tried creating an account. It was the exact same experience. Like they're not doing anything. They are going to do yeah what maximizes shareholder value.
00:24:52
Speaker
And until they are forced by external forces, you watch social dilemma. The creators of these social media companies, Pinterest, ah they aren't letting their kids have iPads. They're not letting their kids have social media accounts. What does that tell you?
00:25:09
Speaker
So I just, I don't have a lot of hope in the tech or government sector. And yes, kids are going to get around stuff, but I think there could be more measures parents could take that would minimize stuff. Maybe I'm ignorant though.
00:25:25
Speaker
No, I think for the most part you're on. I just think like Matt was saying, when your son goes to little Jimmy's house and little Jimmy lets his, your son uses phone for two hours to make an account on Facebook. He's going to ask a little Jimmy to get on his phone all the time when you're not around or something. I mean, there's always something people could do. Garrett, I would agree with your last statement about you being ignorant.
00:25:50
Speaker
brutal yeah just Just that your last statement that parents could do more. you just You disagree that parents could do more? I agree with you that parents could do more in the tech world. Our generation, definitely the older generation, just doesn't know a ton about IT in general. I think parents could learn a lot more about internet security, network security,
00:26:20
Speaker
how to protect your home internet, firewalls, all these things, site blockers that a lot of people our age, mostly older generations, they're just ignorant of and they don't care to learn or they think that they're too old to learn.
00:26:37
Speaker
Matt, what would you say is as somebody who's pretty knowledgeable, what would you say is like a super underrated tool, like a DNS level filter, or what would you say that it's something that people don't really know about or know how to use, but it's almost impossible to get around? Yeah, as not an expert on any of this stuff.
00:26:57
Speaker
I'd say a firewall, have a firewall at your home to protect your network and you can monitor sites. You can block specific sites from your firewall. There you have it folks. Big D. I don't have one set up myself. So I'm talking to myself also.
00:27:16
Speaker
and And Matt, sometimes I engage in the contrarian point of view just for the sake of the debate, but I do agree that kids will find ways around it. I think of stories that I've personally heard where, I mean, kids are smart. Parents will set up firewalls and the internet protection and kids will figure out how to get on VPNs, things like that. so yeah I definitely hear you and I'm not that ignorant, but I think, I think just as much as finding ways to stop kids from doing things, which makes them a lot of times want to do it more. Yeah. The whole spiel about and.
00:27:54
Speaker
Gary, you mentioned this in a prior episode, but just leading by example, just don't be in front of your kids ever just scrolling around on your phone for for no reason. Basically, use your phone as a tool to get things done or if you need to, but otherwise, like don't let them see you be a role model that makes them think it's okay to sit around and surf for 30 minutes or an hour and ignore everybody in the room. You know, I think that's that's a big part of it too, right? Because they they're going to grow up to emulate what they see the most. Yeah, I thought of a story because I don't I don't want to be redundant. You all know my.
00:28:31
Speaker
stance on this by now. And I appreciate Thomas, you sharing it. Another aspect of it to add on is I have learned recently, I'll share the podcast
Impact of Parental Behavior on Children
00:28:41
Speaker
link. It's about fatherhood and, and they were interviewing this guy that's trying to help families set better boundaries with technology. Oddly enough. I don't know why I just thought of this, but he started off the podcast episode sharing that he went to his son's game. His son scored a goal. Everyone cheered.
00:28:59
Speaker
His son looked over and his dad didn't see it. He was on his phone. And I think I need to fact check this, but what he shared is that emotionally and mentally that experience as a child, seeing your parents, not like physically present, but not emotionally or cognitively present.
00:29:21
Speaker
Is the same emotional response that a kid will get of like an absentee parent like it's the same feeling. So you can physically be in the home with your kids and you can give your kids the same feeling as if you were physically an absentee parent.
00:29:37
Speaker
And that really struck me and stuck with me. Cause speaking of the Sunday Sabbath tech Sabbath that I was talking about, I was not doing the best job this past Sunday and Brooke and I were trying to coordinate something and Graham's playing this game with his Hot Wheels toy.
00:29:56
Speaker
And it was some silly shot the hot wheels toy and he happened to hit an empty Gatorade bottle and it was like it was just a fun thing with the four year old. He's like dad did you see that and I he turns around and I was on my phone and thankfully those instances are rare.
00:30:13
Speaker
But it was just the fact that, like, he will never say anything. He'll never be like, that hurt my feelings. But it's like he was had this really proud moment just being a kid and he turned around and I wasn't looking. I wasn't watching. And I had no no excuse. And when you compound those experiences, that adds up over time. One here or there. Not a big deal. And that leading by example, what you said, Thomas, is so pivotal.
00:30:41
Speaker
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00:32:02
Speaker
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00:32:25
Speaker
So
Resistance to Change and Social Influence
00:32:26
Speaker
you talked earlier, Thomas, which is so true, the mindset of like, I don't want to learn. I don't want to like learn how to do tech stuff, like not having a growth mindset. That's a very real thing. Height, the author started part four, this entire section, but almost first paragraph, quoting someone. And I feel like we've all heard it and we've all probably said it ourselves, quote, I agree with making changes, but it's too late.
00:32:55
Speaker
basically pushes back on that. And that's what part four is all about of him essentially pushing back on that. Do you agree with that statement or disagree when you hear things as it revolves to technology? I agree with making changes, but it's too late. Do you think it's too late and why or why not? I mean, his whole agenda on Instagram is pushing phone free schools and making changes. So I don't know how much he really feels that now, but that's his whole agenda. He's really campaigning that it's not too late. Yes. No, he, of course he believes it's not too late. He's saying when he talks with others, that's a common statement.
00:33:39
Speaker
that In the public sphere, the public discourse, people say, Hey, I agree. Technology kids are rude, but Hey, it's just too late. Jonathan, it's just too late. And he's like, no, it, is that how we responded to the tobacco industry? No.
00:33:57
Speaker
Uh, he does not feel that way. I'm just asking you guys, do you all feel like you, you fall into that belief? Like, gosh, there's just no hope. Like there we're never going to do phone free schools. Like this is not going to get better. It's only going to get worse. It definitely feels like an uphill battle given how rapid things have changed over the past 10 to 20 years with phones. It only feels like it's further going into that danger zone.
00:34:24
Speaker
which is AI on the horizon and all this buzz around artificial intelligence and all that stuff. But I don't know. I think it still does start in the home, right? So I do believe in the compound effect of the collective action where, man, if everybody sees the bad repercussions of this, then we, the people that are reading this book, the people that believe in it can rally around and try and change course.
00:34:52
Speaker
But I think it's I don't think it's going to be an immediate thing unless unless it becomes governmental. I definitely don't think it's late. And I think really that that thinking that way, it's almost like a victim mindset or like really just a lazy mindset of I don't want to change. That's good. I think that's very ah wise statement.
00:35:15
Speaker
you know, really this book is talking a lot about Generation Z and really kind of the next generation's after, but really it's talking about all of us. And so everyone would have to change to to write the course as we discussed how really parents, adults are having this the same issue with phones and such. It's just that people don't want to change, but I think you can look at the six of us When we do change you know big course or you know we do a 180 with something like that, I feel like the lessons learned from it can be even greater than sometimes having never gone down that road. Someone who was using or addicted to social media and then reverted from it and now no longer is. ah Those stories I think are
00:35:58
Speaker
you know, more telling and that person might develop more character to say than the person who never started using it in the first place. And so it's to say willingness to change one's behavior really does help us to grow on so many other and different ways, especially when when the mindset is focused at personal betterment.
00:36:15
Speaker
And yeah, I really think it's kind of a domino effect. If you start to develop discipline more in one area of your life, you're going to develop discipline in other areas of your life. And so it's not just that doing one change has small effects in your life, but rather it affects your whole life and it can affect your whole community too. Because as you're doing things, others are starting to see it too. And you know, Fles, you've shared some about your experience with kind of moving away from social media. I've moved away from social media.
00:36:42
Speaker
And it's no coincidence that you find groups of people that do this together in a friend group. You know, you'd see a whole group of friends that's not using it. It's because it has influence on others. I even think in a practical sense, reading, that's not social media, but I tell people I've read more since I joined the book club.
00:37:01
Speaker
than I had probably the last decade combined, the snow exaggeration. So you you join a community that values certain things, you start adopting those habits and reading is now a habit in my life, in my routine. That's good. Thanks to you guys.
00:37:21
Speaker
What I'm a little afraid of in terms of whether it's too late or not is that this is going to end up being like um yet another thing that kind of splits communities and cultures by privilege almost. So you'll see maybe certain schools opt with maybe more knowledge of these studies, more resources to do phone free schools while a school that needs the most probably, maybe with kids that aren't as privileged or as knowledgeable about the detriments of technology, don't, or they're not forced to do it. So I can see where a sweeping government change, like phone free schools, no matter what the school is, like public schools, period.
00:38:08
Speaker
that would be super helpful to so level the playing field in that way. Otherwise, I'm afraid it'll be changes only in certain communities that already have a leg up in a lot of ways. On that topic, real quick, does anyone remember what the author wrote about as it pertains to different socioeconomic communities and how social media and technology has affected? So basically, the concern when iPhones and smartphones rolled out was, would poorer, lower socioeconomic communities be able to afford it? And it would, but it only widened the gap between the haves and the have nots. Well, getting, it turns out 15, 20 years later, the answer is no.
00:38:54
Speaker
It did not. People from every socioeconomic group have smartphones where it is disproportionately affecting not as well off communities is the lack of education and resources around the effects of social media and groups like support groups to help So single moms who are just trying to like work in two, three jobs, like, Hey, just turn the TV on, give the kid a phone to distract him. He's got to just take care of himself all evening, you know? So it's not the financial resources of getting a smartphone. That's widening the gap between the haves and have nots. Rather it is the social media usage and the negative effects that come with that. That is more disproportionately affecting the have nots you could say.
00:39:43
Speaker
And you think about the number of people that are easier targets for these big tech companies, and it's the people who are in those sort of situations. So it's just like a lot of other industries like the food industry, they target folks to buy a lot of the stuff that's not healthy for you, and they make it the cheapest thing on the shelf.
00:40:02
Speaker
And that's what they push the hardest. And so yeah that's the stuff that takes you from a place where you're not doing so well to a place where you're doing even worse. And I'm afraid that's going to happen with the tech industry and social media and everything else. And less like as a culture, we all kind of turn towards this new paradigm of tech use for kids. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:40:26
Speaker
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00:40:56
Speaker
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00:42:02
Speaker
That's amazing. idea And now back to the show. So we've reached the end of another book, season five. So a way, I guess, to kind of recap the whole book, talk about it in kind of a concluding manner.
Practical Takeaways and Reflections
00:42:18
Speaker
I'm a very practical person. I want tangible things that I can do to make a difference. As you think about this entire book, what you've read, some of your takeaways,
00:42:31
Speaker
Whether you're a parent or not, we all are part of some community. So what's one practical takeaway from this section and just the book as a whole that you plan to actually implement in your home, in your church, neighborhood, whatever community you're a part of? I think for me, the big thing is just awareness.
00:42:52
Speaker
Okay. What do you mean by that awareness? Letting other people know about this book, just starting the conversation about this book and all the things that it talks about. And from there, having that, hopefully having that group of friends that are on board where we can link up together and try to do this together. You know, I have quite a few friends that have kids around the same age as my kids. And so if we're all doing this together,
00:43:22
Speaker
that'll make their lives better. So just spreading the word, spreading awareness, I think is big for me. Thanks for sharing, Matt. Fles, what about you? oh I only read half the book.
00:43:35
Speaker
um Yeah, but you successfully deleted your Instagram, right? That's true. So yeah, I mean, having a goddaughter that just started middle school this year, just like a couple of weeks ago, I think again, the preventing like kids from using social media until they're older is.
00:43:55
Speaker
What I think is the most important thing from this, in my opinion, just from like a mental health standpoint, ah especially for young women. And even though you guys said earlier that it's probably the hardest thing to implement as far as kids getting around it, figuring out ways, still think that that's something that should be focused on heavily.
00:44:16
Speaker
Just because something's hard or there might not be good ways to prevent kids from doing it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. The phones, no phones in school is good, obviously. Help with focus and everything that you guys already said.
00:44:31
Speaker
But ah yeah, I just worry. I worry about my 11-year-old daughter going to middle school and what could happen if she started a social media account. There's fear there and especially considering that I got sucked into it and took me forever to get away from it. You know, I don't want somebody that's that much younger than when I started Instagram to get sucked into it.
00:44:56
Speaker
and to have all the negative effects of it happen at a younger age. That's an emotional thing for me for sure. Picking that one as my number one from the book, but I think it's the one that can have the most positive impact if there's things that can be implemented.
00:45:13
Speaker
Yeah. I know I shared with you guys just a little bit about this Sunday. Garrett, I know we talked about it yesterday, but I don't know all the specifics, the youth community that I'm involved with, with my church. The night went really somber and South really quick because a 14 year old boy took his life. Like an hour before in theory, he should have been at where we were at because he attends that weekly function. And so I don't know all of the details, but based on what some of his friends were saying, it was a mental health
00:45:52
Speaker
depression type of scenario that escalated. He seemed fine that day, earlier that day, posting Snapchat's, doing stuff with his girlfriend and stuff like that. And then hours later, it's, it's done. And it's really sad. And, and I'm sure that if it's depression, mental illness, that Maybe, um I don't want to speculate, but maybe that is because of some social media involvement or I think that that could play a part, right? And so just looking back on our conversations, I think that protecting the youth is is important and
00:46:36
Speaker
parents to do a really poor job. I know we all kind of shared of us growing up and struggles that we dealt with and we found ways around them. And I think how do we become more intentional parents around protection when it does come to the virtual world?
00:46:52
Speaker
And so i'm I'm just personally motivated to treat technology as as a communication tool with between the parent and the child and and keeping that really limited to rather than just literally giving the world.
00:47:08
Speaker
to them within their fingertips, right? And so that's something that I really wanna focus on implementing is not caving, standing firm to our beliefs, not really worrying about what anybody else thinks because at the end of the day, I think we're gonna form better children if we stand behind this purpose.
00:47:31
Speaker
Yeah, Rob, I like that word that you use intentional because the reality is, is if we just kind of let life affect us, if we go with the flow of what the culture is doing, we're definitely going to lead to more and more issues. And so I think you know The call for me as a person myself is being more intentional about my actions, my decisions when it comes to any screen time related of things, any he social media rate related things, but then also as ah as a parent, hopefully to you have one child now and hopefully the more in the future, but to be intentional about how I'm going about raising them and not letting culture make those decisions of what they consume, but rather playing an active role of saying,
00:48:13
Speaker
this is how we're going to do things, and this is why, and explaining that. and Because I also think on the contrary side, you know we've talked a little bit about kids do find ways around things, but you know kids are kids are smart, and kids, they do look up to their parents. And so if you if you just say, we don't do this, and that's one thing, but if you say, hey, this is something that we don't do because of X, Y, and Z, that goes a lot further.
00:48:36
Speaker
be the be the change you want to see in the world
00:48:49
Speaker
No, I really, I really honestly think like the world's way too full of people trying to yell at everybody else about how to act and how to live and what to do. So all we can really do is to talk to people about why we're doing the things we're doing and why we believe that that's the best way to live. And I think because this is a cultural issue issue now, because tech is such a intertwined part of our lives, we just have to do everything we can to control and be disciplined and intentional. Like you guys said, for ourselves and our households,
00:49:19
Speaker
and then try to share that in a way that's not speaking down to others about why this is kind of the best path forward for our kids and ourselves and everything else. Thanks guys for sharing. I really enjoyed this book. I'm very excited for our panel interview. That'll be fun to hear from a child and family licensed counselor and a pediatrician.
00:49:44
Speaker
And obviously as more of us are entering the parenting world, you know, Stalen, when we started the book club, did not have a child, now does. And a couple of us, now we have kids that are in actual schools and this is only going to be become more and more personal. I was even thinking, Rob, as you were sharing.
00:50:03
Speaker
And I appreciate you sharing that story. I was thinking of, we were talking about baseball at the beginning. You know, during the playoffs, they'll have this moment in between innings where everyone stands up, fans, players, and it's stand up to cancer and they write a person's name that they know personally that's been affected by cancer. It's my dad, my cousin, everyone's got one because cancer is so prevalent.
00:50:30
Speaker
And when you were sharing that, it just made me think that we're already there or on like a similar trajectory of stand up to mental illness or whatever Philly, but just like where this is going to be a more and bigger problem. If we just kind of let culture stand still, ah right? Like what's stainless was saying, if we just kind of let life happen. But And everyone will be able to fill in that blank of someone we know that's taking their own life or so. I mean, we probably already have that person that can come to mind right now. Right. And we're standing on several whales, whether it's schools, family, whatever our communities are in that we don't need to be fishing for minnows. We can take some steps now. So I appreciate you guys sharing and getting into another great book.
00:51:21
Speaker
What did you guys think of the vibe of the book in general? I personally felt like there was a lot of data, like almost two data too much data. right This is like my favorite kind of book to read, I think, is like data commentary, data commentary. Did you listen to it, Thomas?
00:51:38
Speaker
Yeah, but maybe it was because it felt more repetitive because I listened to it. And then we had the same conversations that were very similar each time we met, too. I don't know. I i guess I wish it would have had maybe more personal stories of people and what they were going through or something like that, rather than just like the hard data, because it was kind of depressing just listening to the hard here things are going in a bad direction.
00:52:05
Speaker
I'm still a kid at heart. So I'm reading a book. I'm like, man, this chapter's long. And I turned the page. I'm like, sweet, a graph. I only have to read half the page on this. yeah do know i I liked that. That's so funny. I didn't have the graph separately, but it's not the same. and No, no, the PDF thing. Not at all. I can relate to that Garrett.
00:52:26
Speaker
Especially when it's dense. Yeah. All right. Well, that concludes our discussion of the anxious generation by Jonathan height in two weeks. We'll release a special episode where the guys sit down with a child and family licensed professional counselor, as well as a pediatrician to discuss these professionals experience firsthand, working with children and the challenges they're facing with technology.
00:52:49
Speaker
After that special episode, we'll return in October for season
Conclusion and Next Book Announcement
00:52:53
Speaker
six. It will also kick off year two of the podcast. For season six, we're pivoting topics and we'll read a historical fiction book called Gates of Fire, an epic novel of the Battle of Thermopylae.
00:53:08
Speaker
Which is the battle that the movie 300 was based off of. If you are a millennial and were teenagers when that movie released like we were. Matt and Fles, you both recommended this book. What caused you to recommend it to us and what are you excited about reading it?
00:53:26
Speaker
I think number one is just it's a nice deviation from the books that we've been reading, like personal development or books like that. And then I personally love the history of this, of the Spartans. And I just think that they're badass.
00:53:42
Speaker
And, uh, love of the movie 300. I think that as like a group of men that are brothers, I think there's going to be some cool tie-ins to that and how they train and fight for freedom and come together and lead each other. I think there's going to be some cool stories in there that we can all learn from. I think you said it well, Fles. Comradery is a word that came to mind. I've actually read this book before and it's very memorable. It's really good, well-written.
00:54:13
Speaker
written by Steven Pressfield. I think I read it 10 years ago or so, and I still remember quite a bit of it. But what I remember most is the realism. The movie makes it seem, you know, it's it's Hollywood style, but this book really gets you into the gritty details and the gore and the exhaustion of fighting a war. And yeah, it's just a very good book.
00:54:39
Speaker
All right thank you yes we're excited to read this book and like you said fli it will be a good deviation from some of the topics we read in the previous seasons. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the books brothers podcast will post a link to purchase the gates of fire in the show notes you can read along with us.