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S5.E1 - The Anxious Generation - Intro-Ch.1
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Welcome back to Season Five of the Books Brothers Podcast! Thomas leads our discussion of the Introduction and Part 1 from The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt.
Introduction (1:30 - 17:25)
- What are your thoughts on the author’s metaphor of “Kids [today] growing up on Mars” (1:30 - 4:08)
- When did you receive your first smartphone? (4:09 - 17:25)
Part 1: A Tidal Wave (17:26 - 51:00)
- The guys share their own negative experiences and consequences from their own phone use / screen time through the years (17:26 - 35:14)
- The guys share their own experiences and thoughts on parents’ sense of ability or powerlessness to control their kids’ technology and social media use (35:15 - 51:00)
Next week we’ll discuss Part 2 (chapters 2-4): The Backstory: The Decline of Play-Based Childhood.
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See you next week! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Books Brothers Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Books Brothers Podcast. We're a group of six lads in our early 30s who despite being spread across the nation managed to keep in touch with each other by reading and discussing books. We've now been meeting every week or two for long enough to have read almost a dozen books together. I think reading as a group has opened us all up to new topics we might not have delved into as individuals, as the books we've read range from historical narratives like The River of Doubt, about Theodore Roosevelt's early 1900s expedition into the Amazon, to the latest book we read, The Psychology of Money.
00:00:45
Speaker
It's been great to have a productive excuse to keep connected to each other and also to share our discussions with the
Discussion on 'The Anxious Generation'
00:00:51
Speaker
world. Today we embark on a new journey by reading the introduction and chapter one of The Anxious Generation, how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness by Jonathan Haidt. We thought this book sounded interesting and relevant to the time in which we live. We also figured we may benefit from this one, and that by highlighting the contents in this book, we might especially help parents and people from young generations. I'm Thomas. I'm Fliz. I'm Adam. I'm Rob. I'm Garrett. And I'm Matt. Let's go through the introduction, shall we?
00:01:30
Speaker
I want to introduce the author, Jonathan Hite. He is a social psychologist and a professor of ethical leadership who studies morality and emotions. His main scientific contributions have to do with figuring out the reasons we often make decisions based on gut feelings rather than logic and reasoning. He's written a number of other books, such as The Happiness Hypothesis, The Righteous Mind, The Coddling of the American Mind. And I, having read a couple of these, um I was just really impressed by the way he presents data, his conclusions, and how he also explores common counterpoints and counterarguments that are different from the one that he comes up with.
Impact of Technology on Mental Health
00:02:11
Speaker
So I'm excited about this one. The book starts off by discussing the alarming rise in anxiety, depression and other mental health issues among young people, especially those born after 1995 or Gen Z. The author paints a picture about how many of these young people have been unknowingly subjected to an uncontrolled experiment as the first generation to come of age during the proliferation of smartphones, social media, and other attention grabbing technologies. He asked a hypothetical question to serve as a metaphor about the impact of technology on today's youth. Would we allow a visionary billionaire to recruit children for permanent settlement on Mars?
00:02:53
Speaker
How would it affect their growing brains and bodies? So what do you guys think about this metaphor? Was it too dramatic? And you know when did you guys get your first smartphone? Full disclosure, we're all millennials here. So I think we got a little bit of a tail into this, but did you guys feel like a powerful pull from any of these things? Or do you remember that kind of as a younger person in high school or college? So to answer the first part of your question, yeah, I did think that the metaphor about kids growing up on Mars was way too dramatic. That's the first thing that this book opens with. And then my first, I was like, okay, this is just kind of far fetched and not a very relatable metaphor. You can have come up with something better than this. Well, why don't you write them books in Matt? I will not.
00:03:46
Speaker
I kind of agree. But, you know, thinking about it, it kind of makes sense. It's a an area that no one had ever explored before. Nobody knew anything about it. Yeah, it's just all new territory for everyone. So I get how he came up with it. I just still didn't like it, though.
00:04:07
Speaker
And then the second question, when did I get my first smartphone? I remember I got it when we were all living together, minus Garrett, in the Pentagon. I think it was over Thanksgiving break that I got my first iPhone. It was iPhone 4. And then I went back to Springfield and it was just me and Rob hanging out of the house. And I was setting up my phone and one of the first things I got was Temple Run because I wanted to play a game on my phone and I've just played it for hours and hours. And yeah, I got addicted to it. Not just Temple Run, it's a phone in general being tied to it all the time. I think we just had Facebook back then. I don't even think I had Instagram. No, because Instagram came out in what, 2012? I think but Facebook purchased it and acquired it in 2012. So it was around that.
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah, so I really just had it for Facebook, some games on my phone, and then group texting. Group texting became a lot better with iPhones. so Yeah, I always thought that our age put us in a very interesting point when it came to smartphones. Because I think we all graduated in 2009, right? High school. Yeah, I graduated high school 2009. And I think that iPhone came out that year, like the year before. And so I feel like having an iPhone in high school would look so different.
00:05:32
Speaker
and the fact that we were a little older whenever we started getting smartphones, I feel like did make a huge difference. And I think I always kind of had thought that, but this book so far has really affirmed that. Wow. Yeah, really. I remember in um early high school, I distinctly remember a friend of mine complaining about how his girlfriend was like texting him too much because he only had so many characters he could send per month, so many texts per month. Yeah. T9. So you compare that to, you know, having Facebook on your phone. I mean, it's so different how much communication happens. For us, it was, you know, we didn't really use our phones to communicate a ton through the day when we were in high school or definitely not middle school. But, you know, really just the next, you know, two, three years behind us is when that started happening.
00:06:23
Speaker
I still vividly remember receiving my first text message on my flip phone. I was like, wow, someone just like sent me this message and she's not even here right now. This is pretty cool. And then I remember my parents saying, Hey, when I give you this phone, you can only use it to call 911 or call us if it's a very urgent matter. Like that was their parameters because it costs so much money to make phone calls and stuff like that. So I had a phone and in high school, but it was a foot phone. And I remember at least at our high school.
00:07:00
Speaker
You would get one warning if a teacher caught you on your phone and then your second offense would be a four hour detention. I don't, you know, someone fact check me, but I feel like the schools have probably just capitulated and given up. Like we're not doing detentions. It's just part of life. Oh, like not you're saying you don't think they're doing that all word
Evolution of Smartphone Use in Society
00:07:21
Speaker
for phones. For being on your like if you were on your phone in class and the team you'd get you'd get written up and you'd go to the the principal's office. And if it was your second offense it was an automatic four hour detention.
00:07:33
Speaker
I remember I had a patient and this was probably like six years ago that he was telling me that he used to take phones away from kids that use them during class. And he would put them all in like a ah bucket or you know community area. um And he said that one time another student stole someone else's phone and he got sued. And the school didn't the school didn't like back him up, like but the parents sued him for that. And he was like, yep, I just let him be on the phone now. he's got um you know with how it is, like they're just gonna be on the phones. What in tarnation? Yeah. But I feel bad I didn't answer your question, Thomas. For me, um I feel like I was in college as well, Matt. I think I was probably either a freshman or a sophomore. And I think I've never been really like the most tech savvy. And so I don't really think that I was really good at utilizing a smartphone for all it was capable of at that time.
00:08:31
Speaker
I received mine for Christmas. It would have been January 2012 because I had just gotten back from studying abroad in China and I was in China past Christmas. So got my Christmas gifts at the turn of the new year and I got my first iPhone. And I remember it, you know, so Facebook, I had that in high school, but you had to go home, log on to your computer. Right, add up some honeys. Right? Well, no, that was aim AOL instant messenger junior high maybe they will never know they will never know how good aim was man. But then I do I just remember like the quick adoption to your point, Matt, I download a temple run and boom, you played it for a few hours and never look back. I remember
00:09:23
Speaker
So that would have been within one or two years because I got it second semester junior year. And I remember when I was president. Yeah, so it would have been that same year. So in 2012, I remember threatening like at the chapter meetings. All right. When we go to initiation, like we're going to put everyone's going to put their phones in a bucket or whatever, because guys were just on their phones, like so many people on their phones during initiation, which is supposed to be the sacred time. People just like looked at me like, you're not taking my phone, like you're not in charge. you know it Obviously, it was like a ah power control thing on my end, but it was I'm sharing that to share like within the first year of me being back on the space side with a smartphone, with the majority of the fraternity with phones.
00:10:13
Speaker
It was like, guys, like put your phone away for two hours during this initiation event, which is supposed to be like the most solemn, serious ah moment of the semester. And that's a very quick adoption and quick shift in our attention, moving to our screens on our in our pockets. So I was 16 when I got my first flip phone and it was just basically the call after games to come and pick me up. But then I don't remember when I got my first iPhone. It would would have been college for sure. I just don't remember exactly when. I remember being more of a words of friends kind of guy.
00:10:57
Speaker
Remember that game? Oh, it's still big, I think. Is it? Yeah. There was another game I used to play all the time on there where you would build stuff. Clash of Clash of Clans, that was it. That's awesome. They got a lot of hours from Flez, I think.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah, but I don't remember being sucked into it though, like having a smartphone being an issue. Like now where it's, we have all these blockers up for screen time, you know, I don't remember there being so many apps. Yeah. Like internet was slow still back then, you know, like 2g wasn't very fast. Like it wasn't very fun to be on the internet on a smartphone until, I don't know, like almost after we got out of college, I feel like. Yeah, we were, we were too busy, uh, doing a bunch of shenanigans to be on our phones. Playing basketball, but nerf basketball. Yeah. Lifting things up and putting them down. I remember before, right before everyone got iPhones, we used to just knock people's phones out of their hands.
00:12:14
Speaker
ras like ras
00:12:17
Speaker
I remember one time we were bowling and Jordan Paskey had just finished bowling. And then Thomas did a crab walk up behind him. And then as soon as Jordan Paskey turned around, he had his phone out. Thomas kicked his leg out while doing a crab walk.
00:12:39
Speaker
it fun with flying That's Wow. Thank you, Matt. I had forgotten forget about that too. That's funny. I didn't get my first iPhone or first smartphone until graduating college. I was kind of a late adopter on multiple fronts. I didn't get my first phone till like sophomore year of high school. I think my parents just, yeah, it was too expensive at the time and it wasn't a necessity and I think it was fine. I think I would have been, the only thing I regret with not having a smartphone during college is
00:13:17
Speaker
all of the gold that was captured that ah Thomas recorded since he had a smartphone. yeah but All of the college videos, and maybe some of those are okay that they didn't get recorded. but i man I recorded everything I could in low definition 480p.
00:13:44
Speaker
But Garrett, what you were talking about with the like taking phones away and stuff. So I was supposed to go on the conference that I go to with the teens that I chaperoned for this past weekend, but I i couldn't go just due to closing on the house. But we there's a part of the retreat that we take the phones away from the teens for like two days. And it is like the most joyful the time of these kids' as' lives because it's like the first time that they've ever been like held away from the things that aren't right in front of them, right? Or they have to focus on what's right in front of them and truly be present. And that's when they really come to life. So it's it's really cool to to watch how taking away technology only helps people
00:14:36
Speaker
live more presently and fully and in community, which we all know about is we try to get connected, but we're probably less connected, uh, now than we've ever been in reality.
Social Media's Effect on Youth
00:14:51
Speaker
I know Rob, like you, like you spend a lot of time with folks of this age group. And I feel like that's pretty invaluable for being able to reflect on this book because I personally don't, and it's really cool that you do. So I mean, like, I don't know. Do you think you've noticed like a big difference? If you can kind of remember back to how you were certain ages, like, have you noticed that? That, oh man, this is a lot different than when I was, you know, 14 or 16. I had one of these teens pull up their Snapchat.
00:15:23
Speaker
And he, no joke, not exaggerating, showed me 30 Snapchats all in a row from all of his buddies. And they were all just different angles of the other person's face on the other line. And they didn't say anything. Like they were just like, or the or if they did say something, it'd be like a one word like sub or at home or whatever. But they were all just like, face selfies from different orientations. And it's just like, I'm so glad that I didn't grow up as much with that where it's like, that they're not even sending anything of value, you know,
00:16:07
Speaker
I recall whenever, so this is probably like 10 years ago, maybe eight years ago, Ruth and I used to help with youth at our at our church. And I remember um one of the middle schoolers saying that if she had a picture she posted that didn't get 50 likes, that she would take it down. I was like, that's insane. Yeah. Crazy. It's a lot of likes too, man. Shoot, I was happy with three. I've done stuff like that before. I'll admit it. Yeah. Yeah. yeah i'm I'm happy. I'm happy with three and one of them's me.
00:16:42
Speaker
Hey, that's how I am with books brothers podcast. Hey, like and subscribe. like You just got to get it to get the train rolling. fli you You can change it to, instead of it saying the light count, it just says and others. So people don't actually know the, Oh dude, I don't care anymore. I'm talking about like in my twenties back in the day. You go man way to go you have i mean you have evolved. Yeah, you I mean, you have the most experience as a influencer, if you will, because you did have a lot of followers for a while. I have the most experience of the negative consequences of social media, for sure.
00:17:24
Speaker
So, before we get in that, let's go to Chapter 1 because I feel like that that's where it really starts talking about the ah consequences. So, Chapter 1 is titled The Surge of Suffering, and it discusses the surge of suffering among adolescents, why this is happening, and how parents feel powerless to help. So rates of major depression in teens has shot up over 140% since 2010. Rates of diagnosed mental illness among college students, anxiety among young people, and emergency room visits related to self-harm are also way up when compared to older age groups. um So in this chapter, there's a ton of great data, a bunch of graphs about
00:18:11
Speaker
different sort of consequences related to mental health in the younger age group. And the the author comes up with several solutions to address this. I'll just kind of skim over these. First, of course, limit smartphone use. ah The author suggests restricting smartphone use before high school. He suggests delaying social media until the age of 16. due to developmental timelines of children. He also mentions that it would be very easy to implement phone free policies in schools. And lastly, he talks about promoting unsupervised play and encouraging children to get out and have face to face interactions a lot more often.
00:19:06
Speaker
So, Fles, let's go back to the the negative consequences. I mean, how do you feel like, I mean, I have my own experience, but I know that probably not really a whole lot compared to what you've been through. So what do you think, man? I feel like it's easy to get sucked into the virtual world and then your real world becomes limited.
Influence of Social Media on Identity
00:19:26
Speaker
I mean, obviously he talks about that later on in this book, but I know from my experience, being into fitness and all that and trying to grow a following, grow a brand that almost becomes your life and that is your identity.
00:19:41
Speaker
Whenever that came to an end for me, that's when I really had struggles with mental health is because then at that point, what's your identity? You mean it came to an end like you're powerlifting? Yeah, that's like my Instagram is like me, like I'm a powerlifter, like that's my identity. And so, um like if I ever got injured, and I couldn't post because I couldn't lift to post, then I would get to more i would get depressed.
00:20:13
Speaker
Um, and it's just kind of, does that make sense? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think of a, uh, art of manliness podcast that I listened to on the way to Hawaii this last time, actually, where the guy talks about having like, it's like diversifying your identity in a way. So like, okay, powerlifting, like I got injured, but I still have. my Bible study on Wednesday nights. I still have my, whatever, ah I don't know, pickleball club thing on Tuesday. It's like, but if it's only that, then like your whole world can go crashing down. And I think, I think that was my experience off and on in hindsight, but
00:20:59
Speaker
That's just from a fitness influencer standpoint. From like ah another standpoint, it's like if I make a post and like someone says something bad, it's like that causes anxiety. Or like if you post in general, it's like what's the response going to be? And then you have this built up anxiety. And i I noticed it later on whenever I was done with all that, that if I would post something, I would just get really bad anxiety because I was just like, what's the response going to be? And then it became, what's the point? Why am I forcing this upon myself? I'm done. You know, all I care about is you guys, my family, all these people that are real. So got out of the matrix.
00:21:43
Speaker
Nice. i I feel like what what you said about identity kind of reminds me a little bit of the last book we read about the psychology of money and the strategies that it talked about because it told you to diversify your portfolio and don't put all your eggs in one basket. And I feel like with social media, when you're online and you want attention, you do have to pick a brand like you have to pick a path and try and capitalize on that to get people's attention essentially, because there's a million other people out there trying to capitalize on whether it's fitness or the way you look or being funny or doing outrageous things. I don't know. like there's just it's so saturated It's such a saturated market that I do feel like you're right. It just makes people put all their eggs in one basket from like an identity standpoint. And then if that doesn't work out or they have to change,
00:22:38
Speaker
Or they feel like a failure in that particular path, like it's kind of detrimental because they don't have a whole lot of other outlets to be themselves, you know? I just want to first say, Fles, thanks for sharing, man. I think that it's always encouraging hearing you kind of talking through your history with that. And it's cool to see where you're at with it. And then kind of on more of a, as we started this, like doing this podcast, right? I think that this is something that we all had a concern about because we are a group of six guys who are
00:23:09
Speaker
Pretty not involved with social media and not really big about um projecting who we are on community platforms and such. And so I know that's one thing that we all had anxiousness about. And I feel like our our hope and our goal has always been to stay true to maintaining authenticity and knowing that these conversations that we have or they are they are authentic and we know that they can hopefully help encourage others. um And yet we're still being in a place where, yeah, we might you know encourage folks to listen in and stuff, but at the same time, and our our goal is to not necessarily become anything, but rather just to be a part of helping a community of people. Absolutely.
00:23:52
Speaker
I don't know if you all ah would agree with that, but that's kind of, I know how I feel. And I know when we talked about things earlier on, uh, was a hope that we had. Yeah. I mean, even as we're playing in this new book or this new season of the podcast, right? We're sending out messages to each other, you know, all right, who's leading tonight? And all right, Thomas, you got it. And Rob, you made a comment. Like, I don't know if I'll be able to join that often. I don't know if I can do a lot on social media or even like I'll try to do. I'll try to pick up the slack, though, the next book. And it's like.
00:24:26
Speaker
We're here to connect. it There's no expectation. you know This isn't about the pod. This is about the group. And if sharing our conversation encourages others to do the same and connect with others, then that's great. But it's it's definitely I've definitely felt that tension personally because it's been really fun to do. All right, how many people have listened this week? But coming back and re-centering what the ultimate value is. and And that's that's the idea behind technology. is It's like anything else, it's a tool. It can be used for good. There's a lot of good things. I love that I was able to FaceTime my parents when I was halfway around the world a decade ago. you know Or when we lived in Denver in the pandemic and we had a quarantine,
00:25:13
Speaker
And we just had a newborn that I was able to FaceTime my family and they could see my son, right? There's a lot of really good things, but like any thing in used in excess, whether it's money, you know, blue zones, talking about food, it can become ah it can become a bad thing. So I think ah something that helped me from this podcast was masking masculinity was in like total vulnerability. But for me personally, it forced rumination on past, which is a hallmark sign of depression. And so then then we read the about the Okinawans and how they deal with their stuff and they just live in the president. So that's that was like a healthy like, oh, yeah.
00:26:00
Speaker
It's good to live in the present and not ruminate so much on, like we've all been through stuff, but like the Okinawans have been through some crazy stuff and they don't live their life constantly, and you know, over therapy, ruminating. So I think all of the varied books have been extremely helpful for all of us. And this one seems like it's going to be good too. But the other thing, I dated a Gen Z girl for like six months. So let's keep that in mind. And I got to say the speed at which these young kids can view videos is insane. I mean, like, I had to be like, whoa, I didn't even see that last one. What happened there? You're already on the third video. Oh, like scrolling. Yeah. Yeah. Tensions man shortening.
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, exactly again, like I was saying, our experience with like the 2G Internet just didn't allow for that. So, yeah, it's a different world. It's crazy how much it changed in like 10 years. A serious question when you dated her, was she able to like look you in the eye? She had to look down on him. What do you mean? She was six five, right? So when you're when you're on the phone. when you were talking to each other. During what? and Amazonian.
00:27:27
Speaker
Got him. ah This is what I mean. When you're on your phone all the time, when you're on technology, you you as we're reading the book, you you literally lose the ability, because you're not doing it, you're not spending time outside ah interacting with others, you lose the ability to interact with other human beings in real life. So i'm over i would say i'm over the average age at my workplace for the first time in my life and i work with a lot of people in jen zee and ah we have one of you guys i think i've shared we have lunch together every day and just sit by different people every day and get to learn about their life and.
00:28:11
Speaker
I've learned someone she's like twenty four or twenty five and she has shared. She hates talking on the phone like she just doesn't want to do it because she's because it's not predictable. She doesn't know what the other person is going to say on the other line and I'm like. I thought she was kidding at first and she wasn't. I'm like talking on the phone. That's how I grew up. Like if you wanted to call, if you wanted to call a girl or if you wanted to talk to a girl, you couldn't text her. You had to literally call her and hope that her parents wouldn't join the phone line. Stay married, Garrett. Please, truth of the love of God, stay married.
00:28:51
Speaker
So yeah, like we had a new hire this week. and And so that's what I meant by like making eye contact. I go over, she's clearly very young and I shake her hand and I just noticed like she's like darting her eyes. Like she can't, she's not looking at me. um Maybe she thought you were really attractive. We're really intimidating. Too ashamed by looking at him. Well, probably from what you had on your name tag, what'd you end up going with? Oh my gosh, Rob. you are I appreciate that you care about my job title so much. Bro, you asked us. You asked us for your body. No, it's funny you asked that. They're just now starting to print those out, so I still don't have mine. But what'd you submit?
00:29:36
Speaker
I mean, I put my real title, but I included Slightly Ginger on there, stuff like that. I don't remember. I think I put podcasting, like interests of mine. The Secret Nipple? No. There's certain things that must be- Is that the title of ah our next book?
00:30:01
Speaker
Yes. The Forbidden Nipple.
00:30:08
Speaker
Yeah. So that, that's what I meant by like, what is she, what she, did she look you in the eye was when you, I just said eyes. Sorry. If I made that weird, I just meant like you guys like went out to dinner and stuff like that. Like were you able to like hold conversations or was she on her phone the whole time? Was she able to like look longer than a half second? and I'm not exaggerating. Yeah. I'm extremely intentional. So like if she would have been, I would have told her like, Hey, that's disrespectful. I'm serious. Let's clarify. They went to the park and then they went to mini golf. i reckon ive I recommend you crab walk up to her and kick her phone. and's not paying at things I have deep conversations. What I mean by that is I have deep conversations with girls about stuff like this. So like, yeah, she wouldn't, she wouldn't have been on, no, we went up to dinner a few times and she wasn't on her phone.
00:31:06
Speaker
but I mean, that's a, that's a good point for anybody listening who's younger and dating though, Garrett, because I, yeah, I don't know how that whole world works anymore. Flez, you're, you're the most enlightened one here. And from what I've heard, it's kind of tough. She would have argued that she was borderline millennial Gen Z. but Okay. So that sounds like a very Gen Z thing to do. the c sun's very just i special No, I'm special. I'm different than both. According to anybody older than us, we were special too. Everybody says that about us too. Yeah. I think that's a good point to bring up though, Garrett. The author in the intro, he kind of talks about the difference between the real world and the virtual world. And there's four main points that he lays out. um So when he talks about the real world, it means that
00:32:02
Speaker
They are interactions are embodied, you can use body language, you can use physical interaction, and you can respond immediately to those reactions. The second one is synchronous, which means that they're happening at the same time um with subtle cues about timing and taking turns talking. And then there's either one to one conversations or one to several communication. And then the fourth one is a high bar for entry and exit, which means interactions within communities, People are strongly motivated to invest in relationships and repair rifts when they happen. Versus the virtual world, all communication is disembodied. There's no body language. um It's asynchronous, so it could be over text or posts or things like that, so you don't get that immediate reaction unless it's alike or something, but you don't have that instantaneous body language reading.
00:32:59
Speaker
And then there's it's only one to many communications. So if you're posting on social media, you post something and then a ton of people see it. And then last one is in the virtual world, there's a low bar for entry, which means people can just block you or stop talking to you completely instantly. That one scares me the most. Yeah. so I think Garrett's question to Fuz was spot on. It's a valid question. Gen Z is used to growing up in a virtual world where they're just missing all of these basic human interactions, social connections, physical connections that we all grew up with. Everyone in the history of the world
00:33:45
Speaker
grew up with, except for this generation. It's super sad, really. And it's not their fault. They didn't really know. and And I don't know if their parents did either, really. In that way, the whole Mars metaphor makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I actually like the metaphor at first. I agree with you, Matt. I was like, this is this is strong. And then as he started laying out his questions, it's like you'd ask questions like, hey, how how will their bodies respond to time and gravity? And you would ask questions before you would just let the kids go on this trip.
00:34:23
Speaker
with this CEO, yet we asked almost zero questions and have little to zero, obviously zero parameters to blocking youth from creating social media accounts. Like you have to check this box if you're over 13 and anyone, like there's no verification. And yet but it is such a drastic, dramatic comparison. But when you think about the Effects that he lays out throughout the book. It's like ah these are having serious effects that to somewhat or extent Mirror like an equivalent dramatic experience as if you move to Mars So I did I did end up liking it You you and Matt Garrett since you guys are kind of parents in the phase of having to sort of
00:35:20
Speaker
gate keep certain things from your kids, I guess. I don't think Stalin's quite there yet, but you' your kids are probably pushing boundaries all over the place. And as it pertains to technology, this chapter said that parents feel pretty much powerless to to try to like keep this away from their kids or at least keep their kids from resenting them a whole bunch if they do keep it away because they feel so left out with their peers. how how I mean, how do you guys think about that? How do you guys feel about that? there I just saw something about, like, you guys know Chip and Joanna Gaines? Yeah, yeah. I just saw something that they don't let their kids have social media until they, like, go off to college or something. Like, that's their plan. And I know that their situation's a little bit different because they're in the spotlight.
00:36:09
Speaker
stuff like that. But man, I don't I don't want my kids za have social media, like in the parents play a part. I mean, I know you give a kid a phone, like they'll find a way or they'll jailbreak it or whatever. But it's like, it makes you want to put the systems and processes in place and or the controls to allow them to be kids. and not be slaves, you know? Yeah. I've been, I've been wrestling with this for a while and I don't know the correct answer or what we're going to do or what Emily and I are going to do. I would like them to not be on social media until they're, I don't know, 16, 18. But at the same time, kids are going to be kids. I can see arguments for,
00:36:59
Speaker
a lot of different angles on how to approach it. And I mean, some kids are really going to fight it. If we ban social media, if my parents had banned social media and I was that young, I would have gone out of my way to find how to create an account secretly. For sure. there's yeah every Almost every kid. Everyone no one is going to do it. All my friends are doing it. Everyone in school is doing it. so I don't know. I don't think I want to have my kids have social media until they're in high school, just because based on this book, that age range is so important to the development of kids brains. And we'll get more into that in chapter three. But I think there need to be some type of safeguards in place for social media.
00:37:55
Speaker
It doesn't necessarily mean banning everything, but having serious conversations with them when they're at the age, make sure that they understand the consequences, long-term consequences. And yeah, I don't know. I'm hoping this book will give me some good insight on how to have those conversations with kids when the time comes. So I don't i don't fully know yet, but It terrifies me that I've two girls that will be of social media age at some point and how they're going to handle that, how they're going to react, how we're going to react. I mean, nobody knows the correct thing to do. There isn't a right way to do it. So we'll see.
00:38:42
Speaker
The only thing I would add is I think the conversations and the habits that you start when they're born matter up until they become teenagers. It's not like all right, you're of age where you can read and scroll through a phone and navigate apps. Now we have to have the conversation. I think of on Sundays we try to Sabbath from all screens. And it's important that any expectation that I have on my kids, I follow as well. So if I'm not letting my kids watch TV, but then I'm watching TV.
00:39:22
Speaker
what What kind of message is that sending? And I think a lot of that a lot of that is, I really struggle with getting angry with parents because yeah, these are kids. Their brains are not fully developed. If they see a phone, they're going to go to a phone. And if the parents are on their phones all the time, if they are on social media all the time and they aren't parenting and exercising authority over their kids, and not modeling healthy relationships with phones themselves, then of course it's going to be a struggle. But I think if you start young and you start early and you create those habits that you live out yourself, it'll be your own values, and then you're the parent,
00:40:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely not gonna be easy, but there's always gonna be challenges with each generation, whether it's alcohol, whether it's phones, whatever. There's always challenges of parenting and teenagers. So just think of, you set the culture early on in your family and you live by your own values. And I think it makes that conversation easier. And there are other peers, like we have several friends, numerous friends in our church who, give their kids dumb phones, right? They're around 10, around eight, around 11, 12. And it's like, yeah, we we can't live in the stone Asia is a different day and age, but you're not getting access to the internet. You're just not.
00:40:52
Speaker
And there's there's ways you can, like like Matt said, there's not necessarily like a one, this is the only path you can take. But I think you start with those parameters from the moment the kids are born. And and I'm i'm in serious, that's even like when you're rocking a newborn to sleep. It's so tempting to just be on my phone. But like I think he said in the book, when you're on your phone like babies literally like attach to their parents through visual cues like they can actually exercise their facial muscle muscles and connect with their parents when they're just a few weeks old and if you're on your phone you're not responding to them i mean like so i it might sound silly. You know thinking of teenagers in a newborn but i think that stuff matters from day one creating those habits like i'm going to be present with my children.
00:41:44
Speaker
Yeah, the truth is we really don't know how it affects anything yet. No, I think we do. I think this book is talking about, well, do you guys not to be political, but I mean, he talks about the tobacco industry in here, but do you think that there needs to be some sort of regulation for social media or smartphones? Kind of like there is tobacco and alcohol and cannabis and.
Regulating Social Media
00:42:06
Speaker
I love how basically he brings up hackers and he says a hacker's whole profession is centered around them finding a vulnerability and exploiting it. And hackers are the ones who built social media and they found all the psychological vulnerabilities in our brains and they found a way to exploit them. So yes, I mean, it's just like an addictive substance such as nicotine where you give nicotine to any mammal
00:42:35
Speaker
And it's just going to become addicted and it's it's going to be basically at the behest of that substance rather than like its own free will. So I do think to an extent there needs to be more safeguards around it. I agree. Garrett, I like what you said though, man. I think it starts in the home, like you're saying. Yeah. to Being intentional. Yeah. I see at a church, you you get you get two families, one gives the kids screens and that's how they get through the church service and then the other one doesn't. And the kids have to be committed to being attentive and focusing on what's ah in front of them. And I think it's easy to probably give a crying kid a screen, but that might not be, that's not always the best parenting decision, you know?
00:43:26
Speaker
I used to just go to sleep when I was in church service when I was a kid. Sorry. but i think like yeah here's Here's a question. ah How many of you, and again, no shame, but truly polling. And I'll share why I'm asking this question. How many of you sleep with your phone on your nightstand, like within arms reach? Yep. So we got yeah three yeses, Thomas. No. Other room. Rob. No. Okay. Mine's like on the ground where I have to physically get up. So it's on the other side of my nice and so it's kind of a yes, but kind of a no. But ah I was talking to talk to my friend who we're about to go on a friend's trip next month. ah One of my really good friends from Denver. ah He was married to another resident in the program and
00:44:17
Speaker
ah He told me we're catching up last week he goes you're the only person I know that doesn't sleep with their phone on their nightstand. And I thought, again, I just sometimes have a trouble grappling with that. I'm like, the only one. And again, he's not being dramatic. And it's like, it's, it's like, it starts with us too. It's like, it's, we're reading this. It affects your sleep. It affects your like ability, like melatonin. And you know what I'm saying? So it's, like it's not just like pointing the finger at the Gen Z. I i see this as like, we we're all.
00:44:52
Speaker
susceptible to this and there's ah other there's new habits we can form and old habits we can break and improve our own relationship with screens. To be fair, the only reason I do is because I turn on a meditation. And hey, i'm again, I'm not trying to come off like y'all are wrong. I'm right like, I'm just saying. I want to get, I actually want to get a different device that has that on there so that I can put my phone in the other room. It's just like, it only has that one app that has the meditation on it.
00:45:23
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and again, there's it's not black and white don't hear me say that it's more of the mentality of Not being able to part with our phone and I'm not saying that's you guys. I'm saying the general like Sleeping not not having your phone in the room. Like i I don't do that You know, I mean like that's like a foreign that's like going to Mars for some people like not sleeping with the phone in the room Well, as I found my iPod shuffle that I can send the. How would that work, though? How would that work, though? It wouldn't play out. You just put some mp3s on there and then you' there's your meditation right there. You can get 100 songs on there. I don't think I could export the calm app meditation that I use. Well, I'm sure there's some goo goo dolls and little Wayne on there. So that's.
00:46:15
Speaker
Probably that's even better. It probably is some Google dolls. I do have one of those. I haven't one of those iPod classics. That's like a square circular like spin wheel. Yeah. Brooke still has one of those. Like we just kind of keep it as like a, almost like a souvenir at this point, but she still has mean girls downloaded on it. And a few years ago when I had power, I was like, I mean, I'm talking like a one and a half by one and a half inch screen. I'm like, how did people watch? it Like literally, like it is so small. Dude, remember the Microsoft Zune?
00:46:55
Speaker
Oh yeah. no Remember that colossal failure that was pretty soon. Thomas always got the other thing that society wasn't promoting to be obscure. So we don't really know what we're talking about. Forget Apple man. They try to lock you in. I want to be free. Are you? I I mean, yeah I remember my parents would ah would limit me to two hours of screen time, and that included things like video games, TV, my Game Boy, and I resented them for that. So like I can't imagine how kids feel today with all the social pressures too, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it's pretty pretty difficult for you parents to to deal with.
00:47:46
Speaker
That's what I was saying though. it's it's something There's always going to be challenges I've shared before. My parents didn't let me have a computer in my room or a TV in my room and all my friends did. And I was so mad. I mean, I was a turd. My parents told me like eighth grade, they were like, we we weren't sure what we were going to do with you. What were they considering? I don't know if they were like going to drop me off at the fire station. or I remember Finch Sprouse, by the way, shout out to Finch Sprouse. He would tell me at times like his oldest daughter, Lindsay, Finch Sprouse, the leader of crew when we were at Missouri State for the first two years.
00:48:28
Speaker
He said she would like fight him so much. He would threaten. He's like, you think it's better not living under my roof? I'll take you to the fire station right now. I always remember him saying that. that He would threaten her like, fine. You you think it's better somewhere? i go like I'll drop you off at the fire station. So I don't know what my parents would do, but I had a a missionary. He had just graduated high school. So he was like four years older than me. ah Move in and stay with me for a year or stayed with the family for a year and Whenever he wasn't traveling for his shows. He was like he was like flez huge buff guy and with like break bricks with his arms and then steal bars with his teeth and stuff and ah and He was like my idol and he was like literally my parents were like, thank God ah John live with us that year because we don't know what we would have done with you He was the only person I'd listen to
00:49:20
Speaker
You guys ever threatened to run away from home and then your dad's like, okay, see you later. And you're like, Oh, this this isn't going as planned. now like Running away from home was never a huge, like maybe one time, but I was like, I don't know. I, that was like never a big consideration. I was never that mad at my parents. Yeah. either Did you, Thomas? I think I remember saying stuff as if I would, but then I was always just fronting. Like I never really had it in me. run Run around the block. They didn't care either. They're like, all right, have fun not eating dinner tonight. I was like, oh, yeah, I probably should stay.
00:50:02
Speaker
First, your dad would say, why you be fronting, Thomas? Hey. Yeah, this book's definitely stirring up a lot, though. And it's one ah another book that we've chosen that I can't really put down. So it's been a really good read and excited to get into it more with you guys.
Closing Remarks and Listener Engagement
00:50:19
Speaker
yeah The show.
00:50:24
Speaker
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Books Brothers podcast. Join us next time as we discuss chapters two and three from the book, The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. If you haven't yet, get the book so you can follow along with us. If you've enjoyed listening or benefited from a conversation, please subscribe, give us a review, and share it with a friend that you might want to connect with. Lastly, we would love to hear your thoughts. You can reach us by email at connect at booksbrotherspodcast.com or on Instagram at booksbrotherspodcast. Until next week, read, reflect, and connect.