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Panel Discussion - The Anxious Generation
85 Plays1 month ago
The guys bring on two healthcare professionals to share their career experiences and their thoughts on The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt. Our guests today are Dr. Brooke Mueller, MD, a board-certified pediatrician, and Jamie Heimos, M. Ed, LPC, NCC, a licensed professional mental health counselor.
- The guys introduce the two guest panelists. The panelists share why they chose their career fields, as well as embarrassing stories about the guys (1:25 - 14:06)
- As health care professionals, what are some of your biggest takeaways from the book? (14:07- 18:07)
- Can you share some examples of extreme social media use behavior with your patients/clients? What practical guidance do you give them in response? (18:08 - 26:45)
- What is your average weekly screen time usage? (26:46 - 30:43)
- In your respective practices, how have you seen the transition from play-based childhood to phone-based childhood? (30:44 - 35:57)
- Is social media addiction similar to alcohol addiction, where the younger you start drinking alcohol, the more likely you are to deal with alcoholism? (35:58 - 43:16)
- The panelists share their experience seeing the influence the “Great Rewiring” is having particularly with your female clients (43:17 - 53:01)
- In light of the author’s comments related to the “Digital Divide”, the panelists share their experience witnessing and treating patients in marginalized communities that are experiencing this exacerbated educational inequality as it pertains to phone and social media use (53:02 - 58:03)
- The panelists share remarkable stories of their patients/clients taking action towards healthier social media use. They also share collection action steps parents and individuals can make to positively affect their lives and the lives of their children and communities. (58:04 - 1:08:11)
- Jamie Heimos shares what she’s doing in the community and how you can get involved! (1:08:12 - 1:09:19)
How to Connect with Jamie
- Jamie’s Instagram: @balanceandbloomstl
- Website: http://www.balanceandbloomcounselingstl.com/
- Register for the Novel Neighbor’s second book club meet-up in St. Louis, MO, to discuss The Anxious Generation here.
Additional resources
Our next book is Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae by Steven Pressfield. You can buy the book on Amazon by clicking here.
Follow us on Instagram @booksbrotherspodcast
Email us at [email protected]
Please subscribe and give us a review! We would really appreciate it.
See you next time! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
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Transcript
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00:00:39
Speaker
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00:01:18
Speaker
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The Anxious Generation Discussion
00:01:22
Speaker
element So we just finished up reading and discussing The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. We have really enjoyed the thought-provoking conversations that have resulted from this book, and this made us want to continue the conversation one step further. I personally am really excited for today's episode as we decided to flip the script of hearing from a bunch of bros on the state of mental health in youth and we decided to bring in a few experts on this topic to hear what their thoughts are on the anxious generation as we learn from their experience and their expertise. So let's dive
Brooke Mueller's Journey and Cherokee Heritage
00:01:59
Speaker
in. Garrett will introduce our first guest today, Brooke Mueller.
00:02:04
Speaker
Thank you, Rob. Our first guest tonight is more than a friend or mere acquaintance of the show as she has been married to me for 10 years and is the mom of two of my kids with another on the way.
00:02:28
Speaker
There you go. Wanted to bring it to you live on the pod. Why not? in here You heard it here first. Nice. We'll just keep moving on because there's no other better way than just to move on from that. um Yeah, Dr. Brooke Mueller is a board certified pediatrician. After completing undergrad at the University of Kansas, she earned her medical degree at the University of Oklahoma College of Medicine in 2019.
00:02:54
Speaker
She then completed her pediatric residency at the University of Colorado, a top 10 pediatric residency program in the country. In 2022, she returned to her home state of Oklahoma to begin her practice. As Park Cherokee herself, she now works at a local Indian health clinic. Brooke, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, guys. You're welcome.
00:03:22
Speaker
Brooke, I know you kind of Garrett kind of led in with some of your bio and some of your career path, but not just becoming a doctor, but pursuing pediatrics. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you came to serve the Native American population? I know Garrett mentioned that you're a part Cherokee yourself, but can you maybe tell us why that was important to you as part of your story?
00:03:46
Speaker
Definitely. Well, yes, I am part Cherokee. So that was always important to me to give back to kind of my heritage and my people. And the really cool thing too is and there's a lot of scholarship opportunities available for Native kids. And that was one of the reasons that I was able to attend the college. I was getting funding um through Native American scholarships and then actually I was very grateful because they paid for my medical school education as well. So I actually have a scholarship commitment and payback with Indian Health Service. And so it's a way to help bring doctors, healthcare professionals back to native communities by doing these scholarship payback. So and that's why I am where I'm at at the clinic. I'm i'm working on right now, but my hope is to stay there long-term because I love it so much. I love the people. i love
00:04:36
Speaker
ah The patient and population is just a special group of people. and They're very resilient and strong. They've gone through a lot as um a people group. And that kind of um trickles down into different generations. And so I see that play out in a really special way and in in the kids. And so I love getting to work with that community.
00:04:58
Speaker
That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that.
Humorous Anecdotes about Garrett
00:05:01
Speaker
It's cool to see that spirit and you just wanting to serve the people that have served you and your education to give back. So I'm sure they're very lucky and proud to have you moving on to something maybe a little bit lighter. So what is something embarrassing about Garrett that we likely don't know? Well, I pulled my kids on this one on the way home from daycare. It's becoming embarrassing about daddy. Right off the bat, Graham said he farts. And so thought that was great, but I said, honey, this has to be one that his friends don't know of. And I'm sure you guys are.
00:05:40
Speaker
I was saying about this, like, you guys have been around Garrett when he dances, right? What? I don't know what he's gonna say. Actually, our wedding video includes Garrett dancing. Okay, well I hope he didn't capture this move, but his go-to move is so embarrassing and he loves it. I think he thinks it's really cool. It's something about like removing the stink face. hold
00:06:10
Speaker
and He does it like he plays it off like he thinks it's a joke but I think it's actually like a crutch he leans on. He really likes it. anything I've seen that move countless times, yes. I've seen it.
00:06:22
Speaker
yeah get doing it Yeah, I feel like I was aware when there when that move originated, honestly. No, I didn't originate it. I copied it from. ah Oh, my gosh, I forgot her name. She went to least in the north and I was like her homecoming date. Oh, I'm drawing a blank. I guess he lives. on your I did not know you were going to go that way. It's fresh on my mind. We are at the wedding this.
00:06:48
Speaker
go now years later that's funny love it awesome would eat in my face so must you mustve got me Good stuff. Well, thanks Brooke again for being here.
Jamie Hymos' Career Transition
00:07:01
Speaker
Now to introduce our next guest, Jamie Hymos. So Jamie is a licensed professional counselor in the state of Missouri. She owns her own private therapy practice, balance and bloom.
00:07:14
Speaker
Counseling in the St. Louis area, primarily serving kids from age five to 18 years old, outside of her professional career. Jamie is also a mom of a toddler girl, an inspiring children's book author and an avid reader herself.
00:07:30
Speaker
We all know Jamie from back in our college days at Missouri State as we were all heavily involved in the Greek life community there. So I think our house was like one or two houses away from from yours. So I know we had a lot of functions together and things like that. But tell us about your counseling practice and journey to becoming a counselor.
00:07:53
Speaker
Sure. So thank you for that introduction. So my therapy practice kind of started on a whim. um After I had my daughter, I was like, I cannot go back to my job. I just can't do it. um So I kind of have had this like, professional identity crisis for quite some time.
00:08:14
Speaker
If you guys, I don't know why you guys would know this, but I changed my major five times in college. I could never figure out what I wanted to do. So I ended up graduating with my bachelor's in child and family development with an emphasis in child life. So I was a child life specialist at a couple St. Louis area hospitals. And that was just not a sustainable career for me, especially wanting to become a mom myself. So from there I worked on my master's and then I became a school counselor.
00:08:42
Speaker
My school counseling career started in 2019, halfway through the school year. And so we all know what has happened in subsequent years. It was just a mess and just really hard to balance a caseload of about 470 kids. And I was the one school counselor. So to me, I was like, I just want to do something more. And I want to spend more time with kids because I could only really spend five to 15 minutes, like one on one with them.
00:09:09
Speaker
and So it's been a really wonderful transition. I have so much independence in my practice. I can take the client load on that I can handle. My daughter comes first. And so like if she's sick, my day is canceled. If she has something going on at school, I'm going to try to be there. That means everything to me. And that has always been the goal. I only work Monday through Thursday. So it's just really nice to be able to kind of make your own life look the way that you want it to look.
00:09:38
Speaker
I'm the boss, I'm the marketing, I'm the biller, I'm everything. So um I mean, I guess my clients are truly the boss. But yeah, so that's kind of how it all came to be. I finally landed on on the career that fit. So Awesome. great so yeah great Congratulations. I'm sure it's a very exciting part of your life right now. Just getting to serve, but getting to build something of your own with your community within your community itself. So yeah, that's awesome.
Jamie's Children's Book and Therapy Integration
00:10:10
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah. Well, so Jamie, I'm curious, what's the, what's the book that you're working on?
00:10:15
Speaker
Um, it is a book about, it's actually inspired by a stuffed animal of my daughters. We call it her dream fairy and her dream fairy protects her dreams every night. So that's kind of the premise behind it all. And I've actually used it with some clients of like, no, you just need something to protect your dreams every night. So yeah, it's just been a cute little thing that we've come up with. And I'm like, there's my book.
00:10:39
Speaker
ah yeah yeah Yeah, that's really awesome. Thank you. All right. So like we said, we do know Jamie from back in our Greek life days, we were part of a fraternity that every year, I believe we had what was called like a ah dream girl and she was on the chapter photo. So that was really cool. Cause every year you'd have like a new person that would be in there, actually smack dab in the middle. But I think the dream girl was more or less like but someone that was around the chapter a lot, someone that the guys really enjoyed seeing, somebody that would maybe from time to time bake us treats, I don't know.
00:11:25
Speaker
ah Jamie was actually one of ours. I'm not sure if it was like our our sophomore or junior year, but um Can you tell us maybe a funny story about ah us guys, somebody in particular, or experience being a dream girl? I could probably pick every one of you that I have a story of like, oh yeah, I remember when Garrett was dressed up like a dog and they were having a lemonade stand one day. um Like in the summer, do you remember this?
00:12:01
Speaker
I don't. I have this picture of you in this like dog costume. I'll have to find it in the middle of it. And it was like too small for you. And it was hilarious. um I just, I mean, I have so many stories. It was, ah it was definitely a really fun time. I think I probably put more effort into trying to be elected dream girl if it was like an election. um But I did find this really nice plaque that my husband, I was cleaning out her basement. My husband came across it and he's like, we need to hang this up right next to your Greek goddess trophy. I'm like, no, we put it in the basement. Um, and then I came across the composite photo. I'm like right next to the advisor, like smack in the middle. But I think one of the funny things that comes to mind whenever I was dream girl and I like told my parents and I was like, guys, guess what? My dad's like,
00:12:59
Speaker
You're not putting that on your resume. I was like, I just, I just hope you realize it's probably not going to help you professionally.
00:13:10
Speaker
like I do recall too doing the Iron Chef. That was horrible. i That was terrible. Is that what it was called? It was like the Iron Chef like recruitment thing. And people were like, here, this is our dog food platter. And I'm like, you want me to eat this?
00:13:31
Speaker
It was terrible. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, that was, it was a good time. We had fun. Yes. All fond memories. It's crazy to think that was what, 11 years ago? Don't say. Time flies. Well yeah, thanks again, both Brooke and Jamie for joining us today. Really excited to have you
Insights on The Anxious Generation and Youth Behavior
00:13:50
Speaker
on.
00:13:50
Speaker
So as Rob ah mentioned, we just finished up reading The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. And that was really a big part of wanting to have you on to hear some of your insights and thoughts. So just want to lead with either of you have any big takeaways from your experience reading the book.
00:14:05
Speaker
I have a lot. I am just excited a book like this was written. I think it's very necessary. I think we need to be really introspective and kind of think critically of the role that smartphones, social media, et cetera, is playing in our own lives and lives of our children, the next generation, so to speak. And um I'm just really excited that this book is out there. It's getting people to think about it, to talk about it, and to take it a step further and hopefully apply it and bring about some good changes. so I think for me, um it's brought up a lot of really good conversations within the parent community that I have within my practice and outside of it too. But we have this information as parents and so trying to delicately talk about it with our kids and say like, no screen time, like that's not the goal. I think the goal is really helping parents and people that are in kids' lives really understand that
00:15:06
Speaker
These have an impact. They are a part of our lives. So how can we use it in a healthy way rather than just take it away altogether? Right. Cause that's not never going to happen. Another big takeaway for me, and one of you did say this in one of the episodes, like a temporary fix in the moment when kids are little lays the foundation for teen years. So.
00:15:33
Speaker
If we just let kids sit at the table and we're like, okay, just take my phone. Just watch this on my phone. That lays the foundation for, I don't want to sit and talk to you or it's too difficult to watch you have a meltdown. And like, the goal isn't for kids to never feel uncomfortable emotions. so We have to feel bored to be able to use our imagination and develop play. So I just really think that being mindful about our actions as parents and what we model to them directly communicates really how we want to spend time with them or don't want to spend time with them. I totally agree. Like kids are so observant. They're like little sponges soaking everything in and they're
00:16:18
Speaker
They're feeding off of your energy. They're picking up how you respond to stress or negative emotions. And so it's so true that modeling of healthy behaviors and healthy coping. It's so important.
00:16:31
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think on that note, obviously, ah you know, as we've gone through this book, we've a lot of times it's really made us question our own behaviors. And I recall Adam a couple of weeks ago, ah Garrett was talking about, you know, kids are really get obsessed with the phone and Adam had basically mentioned like, yeah, like what do you do when you're bored? Like what, what are the behaviors that you take on? And so I think like that idea of essentially like modeling behaviors and like, as Jamie, as you're mentioning, like, can you kind of sit there with them while they're having that or do you give in and like essentially choose the easier option. We've got a month old. And I'm even amazed at this point like how hooked she can get on... She'll see the phone and like it's like the only thing that she'll scream if you like were to try to take it away from her. And of course we do. ah we We aim for zero phone time, but sometimes she finds a way to get it. But but yeah.
00:17:23
Speaker
I don't know, Adam, on a phone call with you earlier this week, I heard Daphne just screaming in the car as you were picking her up. The entire phone call and it was great. Yeah, you got to watch out, man. Those 14 month old babies, they sure like making Facebook pages, man. yeah yeah Younger and younger.
00:17:43
Speaker
yeah So kind of on this similar vein, the author talked a lot about kind of more extreme examples of cases of phone addiction or social media addiction. I'm curious to hear about your all's experience and if there's any more extreme examples that you can think of in working with patients or clients, of course, that you would be comfortable sharing that is. I feel like a lot of clients that I see, I primarily see girls like with anxiety. And I think a lot of times in my intake, I'll challenge them and I'll say,
00:18:16
Speaker
I want to check out your screen time. Like what does that look like? And what apps are you spending the most time on? It's a vulnerable thing to do. So I also share my own with them too. I'm not going to tell you to do something if I don't show you my boundaries around this too for myself. I've seen upwards of 11 hours of screen time daily in some of my middle schoolers and high schoolers. I've also seen kids that have been really kids like high school, but have been victims to really, really horrible cyberbullying to the point where they've had protective orders in place at school or they've had to change their entire schedule to not interact with certain people. Snapchat accounts that are fake and just kind of talk trash of one another. It's heartbreaking. But yeah, I've seen a lot of drastic
00:19:16
Speaker
things kind of come from social media, yes, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. That's a cool activity that you do that to kind of challenge
Screen Addiction in Youth: Challenges and Solutions
00:19:23
Speaker
them. They don't love it. like I also ask the parents to do it too. Cause I like, cause I'm like, this is telling. Do you see any correlation? Like if the parent, if the kid has a lot, the parent also does and um i guess the kid has little, the the parent has little. I feel like it's always a lot. I don't think I've ever seen it under six hours.
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah. I'll i'll say you know screen time is definitely something that I'm constantly asking about in visits. It's become kind of a ah pillar of my templates that I'm i'm doing for well child checks. you know It's like their annual physical and we're covering nutrition, right? We're covering physical like activity and covering mood. And then I'm covering screen time and exercise. And I just always work screen time in and You know, and it also comes up during sick visits too, right? Like I had a kiddo today with a headache and we were talking about screen time. How much screen time do you get at school? What about at home? What about but for bed? And so it's just kind of this just pervasive question now, no matter the visit type. And I agree with Jamie, like it's surprising.
00:20:35
Speaker
I would say just a higher average than I ever thought kids would have on it. like Obviously, there's it's a spectrum and some examples are very extreme, but one that's coming to mind is a patient I had with some very severe mental health concerns and I was trying to kind of figure out how much time are you spending on social media each day? And it was really hard for her to answer that question. And so I just kind of started saying, okay, over or under five hours, over, okay, over, under eight hours, over. And it just kept climbing and climbing and then got to the point where I realized she's spending, and I don't even know how this possible, but 18 hours a day on social media, which I know sounds,
00:21:25
Speaker
Like how is that even possible to like live and function and do that? And so that was one of the most extreme examples. And I was not surprised then that mental health was in such a severe spot when that was like such a causative factor, 18 hours a day. um And yes, there was bullying and stuff like that as well. So I think because like the mental health aspect, if you really break it down and look at how height talks about The dopamine levels, right? We're constantly seeking that. It causes a lot of addictions, right? So we have something that's an addictive factor, and then we're on it all the time. It impacts our sleep. We don't get good sleep. We're not concentrating well. If we're not concentrating well, we're probably not doing great in school. It's all cyclical. like It's just, how do you break that cycle of something that boosts our happy hormones?
00:22:24
Speaker
Is there anything when you see these high numbers, like what practical input guidance do you give? Typically submerge the phone in water, right? It's that could fix it. It is an addiction, you know? What's the kid pull out like a bag of rice? like like i grab taency plan yeah So what my strategy is, and I mean, it's great for me in pediatrics because the parents have to be there in the visit. They bring the kids. And so the parents are a fundamental part of the treatment plan where it's like involving them.
00:23:02
Speaker
and kind of using some like motivational interviewing where it's like, oh, like you're telling me this how many hours a day? like Is that a problem to you? How do you feel about your social media use? Trying to get a little buy-in from the patient as well as the parent. And most often, parents are like, yeah, I wish they spent less time on their phone. So they they have that buy-in. But oftentimes, it's the patient that you've really got to cultivate that within themselves.
00:23:28
Speaker
And so I think involving the parents and I, it's very age dependent, but especially with the younger children, I really emphasize creating a family media plan, really try to empower the parents to be like,
00:23:43
Speaker
This is something that we need to definitely prioritize in our family and we definitely need to set healthy boundaries. So let's sit down and talk about it. So I give them like a handout from the American Academy of Pediatrics that walks through the basics of how to talk about and social media use and screen time with kids, how to set boundaries, how to go about enforcing those boundaries and following through with that. And so That's usually the first step that I try to take with families and um how many of them actually go home and do that. I'm not sure, probably not as many, but I do think it's important for the parents to be on board. I think that's the hard part too is, yes, we can say we know all this information, but making a change is so hard because if the kids don't want to do it, they're not going to do it
00:24:35
Speaker
if we can say these are all the reasons that it's affecting your mental health and they're like whatever that makes no difference. So I have some kids where again we kind of go in this cycle of they're really angry they're really anxious or they're super depressed and we look at the screen time again and it's like this usually happens we're getting really angry because we've had this deficit in our screen time or I think
00:25:07
Speaker
A lot of kids and a lot of parents use it as a resource of, well, they're occupied whenever they're doing this. We as adults too, like we've faced a huge impact in having smartphones with us at all times. I don't know about your guys' jobs, but I do a really, I try really hard to not check my work email when I'm at home. There are certain patients that I really, for clients that I want to make sure that I am keeping a closer eye on.
00:25:37
Speaker
But you guys have your work in your pocket at all times. If you work from home, you live at work. So you're at this stress of being busy all the time and being needed all the time. And not being able to step away causes you to be busier. So what do we have to do to occupy our kids? This is easy. go Just go play and on your phone. We're lacking that connection. And I think when it boils down to it, our parents willing to make their changes so that they can help their kid make the change too. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like what I'm hearing from both you all is just how important it is to have parents and families involved with this. And you know, it's unfortunate because obviously as we see parenting being affected, obviously that's going to affect this as well and kind of trickle down. One more ah question I wanted to ask you all, and I'm going to bring this one out of Jamie's playbook. What is your screen time average?
00:26:34
Speaker
We went through this one a couple weeks ago. I don't even know how to find it. It's five, five hours. Broke's three, 38. It's like I want to see what apps I'm on though. I'm rocking two hours, 30 minutes right now. There you go, Rob. You're abiding by the American Academy of Pediatrics recommendations, Rob. That's why he does it. You're a good kid, Rob.
00:27:03
Speaker
ah For the past week, i put you know I've always had the 15 minutes on like Facebook, Instagram. But for the past week, I've been super intentional about not blowing past that. Like every day I'll i'll say, nope, indefinitely, forget it the rest of the day. And it's like, you open the floodgates, you know? Now it's like, I have to be super intentional with my 15 minutes. Yeah. I will say on socials, I feel like I have to defend myself on social. I don't have Facebook on my phone. I've logged out of my personal Instagram cause it,
00:27:39
Speaker
especially with the political climate right now, it makes me really ragey, anxious. So I like, can't. So I'm only on my business. Well, I have like three Instagram accounts. That's so annoying. Um, my business account. And then I have a book Instagram that I share what books I'm reading. So that's where I said most of my time. It's like you so me speak people guys actually higher.
00:28:02
Speaker
No, no, no. No, it's still five hours. I'm just kidding. yeah hi yeah I haven't had Instagram for almost 10 years now. And I got rid of it for like mental health reasons, struggling with jealousy, comparison, et cetera. And that was really liberating. And then I finally got rid of Facebook, I guess.
00:28:27
Speaker
three months ago. And it feels really good. Like I don't miss it. I mean, there's certain things where it's like we were at a wedding this weekend and I met up with some other residents. I'm like, Oh my gosh, you have a baby. Like I didn't realize that. So it is sad. And I miss that not being able to like know what's going on in people's lives. But for the most part, I do feel like it's been a very healthy decision for me and I don't miss it. And so now that it's gone, I'm like, Oh, but It was definitely like when I was like logging out, it was like, are you really sure? Like really, really sure. And I know I think Pless is talking about that a few weeks ago for Instagram. And I mean, it really is. It's like, Oh, well, I don't know. Like, what if I don't know what that person from college is doing or what vacation they went on? It's like, it's going to be okay. At the end of the day, are you really thinking about people that aren't in your inner circle? Right? I i don't know. I think I've struggled with that recently. It's like,
00:29:25
Speaker
Why am I sharing this picture of my daughter when like these people don't like I don't even talk to these people? I'm like, yeah, she's really cute, but like i dont owe i don't I don't owe that to anybody but the people that know her, right?
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, we we kind of did a quote about that a couple of weeks ago. It was like, everybody that's important to you is like right in front of you. But yet we want to focus on everybody that's not in front of us, whether that's that they know about our lives or whether that's that we know about their lives, even though we met them at a theta kai party 10 years ago and we don't know who the heck they are. Yes, I'm eliminated from a guy in a dog suit. yeah
00:30:12
Speaker
I'm going to find it. I'm going to find it. yeahll We'll post that in the in the show notes. Yeah, that would be great. In the first half of the book, the author talked about the movement from a play-based childhood towards a phone-based childhood. How have you seen this transition play out in your experience with patients and clients?
00:30:38
Speaker
so Like Jamie was saying earlier, I feel like it's a kids no longer know the art of being bored and like being creative and playing and using their imagination. And so when I think of the rise of smartphones, the rise of social media, I'm also thinking about like So we've got this going up and then the other side, you know, play going down, right? And then also things going up, it's going to be rates of obesity. We're going to see high blood pressure. We're going to see insulin resistance, like all these things, because kids aren't getting outside and playing.
00:31:14
Speaker
It's so important for not only like physical health, but mental health as well, relational health. learning how like I loved how they talked about being on the playground and kids need to like learn how to interact with each other and resolve things. and We're just missing this important piece of the puzzle, which is kids being active, burning off some energy in a healthy way, but also learning how to relationally interact with peers.
00:31:40
Speaker
and so Yes, it's been really hard. So not only do we see obviously the things we're talking about like an increase in mental health concerns, but also I'm thinking too about like physical health concerns. Like I have so many kiddos who are pre-diabetic now where we've moved from overweight to obesity to now severe obesity, you know, and so just a lot of downstream consequences because we're not playing. Kids aren't playing.
00:32:07
Speaker
I find too, in my intakes, whenever I ask kids what they like to do for fun, it's always kind of met with a silence. Like, what do you mean? And ah I mean, I think when I was 12, I could have been like, I like to walk to Walgreens with my friends. Like, that was our version of fun. Or I like to, I mean, probably at 12,
00:32:37
Speaker
in 2002, I was still looking for an American Girl doll under the Christmas tree. Those are things that I like develop mentally. That's what your task is as a kid is exploring that part of your play, right? It's not until 13 to 18 that we really should be focusing on our identity and building relationship. So Our developmental tasks that have been studied for decades are getting really misaligned, I guess. And I think the stages of play, I mean, like I've studied play since I was and like 18 years old in college.
Creativity Decline from Digital Engagement
00:33:23
Speaker
These things that have been ingrained in me and understanding what play looks like is just out the window. What do you like to do for fun? Oh, I like to play on my Xbox. I like to play Roblox.
00:33:33
Speaker
Uh, what do you want for your birthday? I went row, row, row box box. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but shaking his head. Like he knows what it does. Do you know what that is? My nieces and nephews asked for that. Yeah. And you're like, you want, is this like childhood Bitcoin? It sounds like it. I don't know. What'd you say?
00:33:56
Speaker
Oh, I know a little bit about it because of my job, but yeah, it's top three video game in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then I could go on and on about Roblox too, and how it's confusing and it's like, it's poisoning their minds, but it's not. It's just, there are certain things kids get onto that's just not appropriate for them. I've studied play for so long that now it's just really interesting to see.
00:34:24
Speaker
Sometimes I even have kids in my office want to play a game with the things I have in my office that mimic an app they've played. And I'm like, I don't know what we're doing. I'm going to go along with it, but I don't get it. And then they're like, Oh, it's on Roblox. I'm like, is this the only way we know how to play? Like you're seven or eight. That's not developmentally normal, but now it's becoming normal.
00:34:53
Speaker
kids like sit around and they're like, Oh, I hung out with my friends. What'd you guys do? Oh, we made TikTok. Okay. Did you talk to each other? I don't know. It's just so different. And it's really heartbreaking. Yeah. how How old are those kids? Like how young does it get ah the ages that are like making it like that give you those kinds of answers, like making social media content? um Gosh, I would say fourth or fifth grade.
00:35:23
Speaker
So around 10. Are like making like TikToks and then. Yeah. Or have their own YouTube channel or. I have a question. So you guys have said that it's addicting. It's an addiction. So like I think about like other addictions like alcoholism. When you're younger, the younger you start drinking, the greater likelihood you are to have alcoholism. So what's going to happen with this? If like kids are addicted to social media, like when they get older,
00:35:54
Speaker
what's gonna You know what I mean? Does that make question make sense? It definitely does. And I it's i think it's going to be detrimental. I don't know what the fallout's going to look like, exactly the specifics of it. um I really liked the the Mars analogy in the beginning, because in a way, it's like, this is unchartered territory. like We don't really know exactly how this is going to play out in a decade, two decades from now.
00:36:23
Speaker
And it is alarming. That's why I'm glad there's a book like this to kind of bring the alarm bell. So I do worry, obviously, just from like a mental health standpoint with the increase in suicides, those are lives lost. That's a terrible thing, you know, so that first and foremost. and then secondarily thinking about how are people going to continue to function and go about their day to like, are people going to be able to hold jobs and be able to support themselves by food, take care of their kids day to day stuff like that makes me really worried, you know? Yeah, i I agree with Brooke. I think it's uncharted territory. We don't really know. But I think whenever we're seeking that next dopamine hit from whatever it may be, if
00:37:14
Speaker
We're venturing from social media or a video game.
Modeling Playful Behavior and Creativity
00:37:18
Speaker
What does it look like after that's not enough? I don't know. What's the next thing? Yeah. what's going to Yeah.
00:37:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I liked what you guys were saying about kids just don't know how to be kids anymore. I think it's a call because I know we identified in the book that this isn't really like a Gen Z. This is more of like a society itself impact. But I'm just getting hit with it. I think it's a call for us to like release the inner kid within ourself too. I think my screen time is so low because I've gotten into phishing this past month.
00:37:57
Speaker
And so I just go out for like an hour or two hours each night and fish and I have caught like no fish, but I'm still like committed to it. And so it's just like $14 bait. What's our thing? Like how are we going to play yeah as adults? I know, you know, it looks different as parents and whatever, but it's cool to for you guys to like show your kids what play looks like. and And then you get to play with them as well. And I think that's just a good call for all adults, ah regardless of where you are it's to never stop playing. yeah Modeling, healthy play, play attitude, I guess. We have our house. My friends joke that our house is very lived in because
00:38:44
Speaker
but ah we like the windows are covered in artwork. As you can see the door behind me, we have quirky little things around our house. Like we have a light that we turn on specifically for dance parties. If music comes on, my daughter runs over to it. She's like, we gotta have a dance party light. We have some like subtle Lego decorations. You wouldn't know that they're Lego. They're like the botanical sets. Oh yeah. I seen those. Oh yeah. Um,
00:39:15
Speaker
I think play is such a part of my identity as a therapist, but as a person and my husband is very much the same way. We're just, that's just really important to us is finding ways to play. Like we're kind of that family because there's only three of us right now. We're able to do this where we're like moving from room to room together because that's just kind of how we've always been. We just kind of,
00:39:44
Speaker
function as a unit of three. And that's usually involving whatever my daughter wants to do. I mean, I even like think back to my very first paying job that I ever had. I worked at the Magic House, in which those of you that don't live in St. Louis, it's a children's museum. My job was play guide.
00:40:05
Speaker
It's in my blood, I guess. So I don't know. I just, yeah, it was an awesome job too. But I think we, we have to stop taking ourselves so seriously too. And just let loose. Like at the end of the day, is it that big of a deal that I don't know, like corporate stuff. I've never worked in like a corporate office, but like are some of these things that big of a deal that we're stressed out about?
00:40:30
Speaker
Yes. Maybe for like the guys that are really trying to like hustle and make the money, but whenever it comes down to it, we're trying to really build a solid foundation of good humans in the world. And like, that's what matters. Right. Yeah. scale I think you're speaking to like, what are our priorities? Right. Yes. Yes.
00:40:54
Speaker
And so I think we have a lot of disordered priorities and work is very invasive and bringing your work home with you or like letting that be paramount, letting it be everything, you know? And so yeah yeah it is hard. I totally agree with what you're saying and how do we model what our priorities are to our kids. As parents, we lose our identity in parenthood too at times. So how else do I identify ourselves with our career? Right. So.
00:41:24
Speaker
Is it one or the other, or can it be, I work in corporate, I'm a parent, and I go fishing? Or like, this is my hobby. Truly, if you guys think about it, what do you do for fun? This. Good podcast. hike Hi. Yeah, i I tried to run up mountains. Okay. That doesn't sound like fun, but okay. It's very fun.
00:41:52
Speaker
ah okay I like to hang out with friends when I can. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you said that in last week's episode of, uh, the art of manliness, like diversifying your identity for that very reason. That's good Jamie. That's good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I read for fun, which some people would argue that, I mean, shoot, that's why we're we're all here. i did do that Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:17
Speaker
I remember ah you said boredom is good. So I remember when I was a kid, my Nemo, I would say I'm bored all the time. My Nemo would be like, well, figure it out. What'd you have to do? You had to figure it out. You had to use your brain and your imagination. We're still at fight. I still remember, in ah I think it was in The Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter. He talked about people who, when they've been bored for a period of time, they looked at these studies and they showed that they were able to be more creative after they were bored. and so i mean There's obviously other benefits to border than that.
00:42:50
Speaker
So Hite states how boys and girls are affected differently from the great rewiring that's been occurring. And in prior episodes, we tried to dive deep into how men and boys specifically are affected, but the authors spend a lot of time discussing how girls have been negatively affected by smartphones and social media. So could you both share your experience on the influence of this great rewiring in working with female patients and clients?
Social Media's Gender Impact and Digital Divide
00:43:23
Speaker
I think this is probably one of my favorite parts from the book is really the comparison between how it affects males and females. So he talks about how with boys, it's more text based platforms. So like Reddit and I don't know, I feel like my husband's always scrolling on Reddit. Video games, right? Yeah. or yeah um And then how for females, it's more visual based platforms, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok,
00:43:50
Speaker
Pinterest, Tumblr, whatever they may be. So we when we have more visuals as females, obviously we're going to compare ourselves. And then there's the filters and then there's everything else that comes with it. I think because of the platforms that females are using, they're being exposed to so much more and being tempted to grow up faster than they need to. Like walking into a Sephora, I'm the oldest one in there. Like that doesn't make sense. I'm not that old. like because we have 12 year olds doing their skincare routine. We have 12 year olds that know how to contour their faces. Like that's just not something again, like with that play, that's not something that's developmentally appropriate for their brains right now, but that's the reality of it because they have so much more exposure. So we have comparison. We have jealousy. We have this extreme
00:44:45
Speaker
anxiety and then that social anxiety on top of it too. I can talk to a screen cause nobody's responding to me, but can I order a meal at a restaurant? Right? Those are things that I think about it that have really impacted a lot of the females that I see. I completely agree with the comparison piece for sure. And along those lines, I feel like I see it play out in disordered eating, disordered body image,
00:45:15
Speaker
eating disorders themselves. So it's really quite sad, the extremes that it can cultivate within someone that keeping up with the Jones's sort of mentality, that comparison. And when they're looking ahead to like, these are my role models, these are the girls they should be or should look like. And I think it's really disturbing too, knowing how a lot of these social media platforms are set up, the algorithms that they're feeding girls where it's like, if you, what is it like you,
00:45:44
Speaker
click on something about nutrition and then you're going to get a whole feed and some of that is going to be maybe eating disorders and stuff like that. you know And if that's constantly bombarding your little 12 year old brain where your frontal lobe isn't fully developed and you don't have full capacity of like, you know, best decision making ability and that sort of thing. it's It's a recipe for disaster and it just really does break my heart thinking about I mean, I remember how hard it was being 12 and feeling awkward and like learning about lip gloss or like trying to do all these things. And I could not be a little teenager growing up now. I wouldn't know how to do that. Like it just sounds really hard to be growing up in to what they're growing up into with those sort of really powerful and strong influences that are bombarding them 11, 12, 18 hours of the day, you know?
00:46:39
Speaker
I don't even say anecdotally, you know, just hearing about your day. I think of, you know, he shares all those graphs at specific time periods where the data notably shifts just sample size of one you during the pandemic.
00:46:58
Speaker
when everything shut down and everything went even more digital, you would share when you were on your yeah ER rotations and stuff, just how many more teen girl suicide attempts you would see in the emergency room and how the hospital was reporting that spike. And I just feel like when I read this book, I'm like, oh, yeah, Brooke shared about that. Oh, yeah, today at dinner and you shared about this patient or like It seems to really like, really yeah yeah, just a lot of alignment with, you read this book and data can just be that it's, they're just numbers. And then it hits a lot closer to home when you're on the front lines, actually like, yeah, I treated that patient who did that. Yeah, yes yeah it's heavy. is happy Thanks for sharing. It's nice to hear from a female perspective as a guy, I can't really relate
00:47:55
Speaker
that well to comparing what I'm going to wear to others, especially at our at our age. Like that just but doesn't relate to me at all. And one of my first thoughts that comes to mind when I hear that issue is when Jesus is talking about the Beatitudes and he just says, don't be anxious. Don't worry about what you're going to wear. Just don't do it.
00:48:21
Speaker
And I take that like, okay, I won't worry about it. But as a girl, I imagine it's not as simple as that. Well, and then you go to middle school too. And it's like, you want to stand out, but not too much. It's, I don't know if you guys have seen the Barbie movie, but there's like a scene in there that's like, yeah, you want to be this, but not that. And it's always like, that's how middle, I mean, that's how females feel truly. Like, and especially we think about our middle schoolers.
00:48:51
Speaker
You want to fit in, but you also want to stand out. How do you possibly do that? You can form to it's the best you can. I feel like, you know, boys are a huge part of that problem because we, we at that at middle school age, uh, that's when we found out, find out that girls exist. Yeah. um yeah yeah The power of belonging, I just feel like.
00:49:16
Speaker
everyone has this desire in them to belong and it's like you're seeing that start to kind of develop in those middle-aged kids and everything of like you know that's why clicks can be such like a painful experience too and exclusion and being left out in FOMO and all those things and so belonging in this same age for kids looks like well I have my tablet I have my smartphone I get unlimited access I have this app I have that social media platform you know and so thinking in the book when he was talking about collective action, is that what he's talking about? Like when parents kind of need to band together and help like change the culture together. Just saying that's so important because it's
00:50:00
Speaker
It's going to be really tough for like one family unit to be like, Hey, we're going to try to kind of swim against the current and do things this way. Right. When it's like, Oh, well that's going to be really hard then for that seventh grade girl, you know, when all of her peers are experiencing this thing and that sense of belonging that I think is going to feel like that pull to belong is going to feel even more strained. And you know, I don't know. It's just really tough. I've seen that happen in my office. There are some families that I have that do have some,
00:50:30
Speaker
I believe there are great boundaries around what age you get a cell phone or what responsibilities you have to accomplish first before you can get one. And there is a sense of feeling left out. I don't know who that TikToker is because I don't have TikTok. i don't I'm not in on the group chats. I'm left out of the plans because nobody knows how to get ahold of me. think So with that collective action piece too, I believe he mentions it in the book, but There's an organization called Wait Until Eighth, and you can sign this pledge of waiting until eighth grade, but there's also a group that's, or they're taking it a step further. And within schools, you can essentially do what Hite is saying is you can work on creating a kind of cohort within each grade. So you have your own Wait Until Eighth, like, so if we were all in,
00:51:29
Speaker
third grade together and our parents were like, we're going to sign this pledge and this group of people, they don't have cell phones. So we're going to make sure that we really try to get our kids together and kind of raise them similarly about the same values of cell phones and family and things like that. So we would always have each other to lean on because we're the ones without phones, but we know how to play. So I've been seeing that a lot in some of the organizations that I'm involved in, in St. Louis and There are some school districts that are really trying to implement that and help parents kind of pod together in doing that. Again, it just takes the buy-in and are we thinking about giving our kids a cell phone whenever they're in kindergarten? Probably not, but maybe. And so I think that's a commitment that you have to make and think about as parents whenever those things come up. <unk> good Yeah, that website has wonderful resources too. I have a lot of things that I give to parents.
00:52:25
Speaker
I think they have a family media plan on there, too. That's really fantastic. and What is it? I'm sorry. Wait until eighth. Wait. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm just going to like read. It's just one paragraph from the book that will.
00:52:42
Speaker
segue us to my next question. And you know Jamie, after hearing more about your career, i this question is a little bit tailored to Brooke, just because I know a lot about her experience and what she does and the working with natives. But with your career and school counseling and what you're doing now, I would not be surprised if you can weigh in on this question as well. So please do. I wanted to talk about the digital divide comment that Haidt mentioned, so really briefly reading that paragraph, quote, show that lower income black and Latino children put in more screen time and have less supervision of their electronic lives on average than children from wealthy families and white families. Across the board, children in single parent households have more unsupervised screen time.
00:53:32
Speaker
This suggests that smartphones are exacerbating educational inequality by both social class and race. The, quote, digital divide is no longer that poor kids and racial minorities have less access to the Internet, as was feared in the early 2000s. It is now that they have less protection from it. End quote. So obviously Brooke and.
00:53:56
Speaker
the population that she works in ah the last two years, can you share, and Jamie as well, the experience you have too, can you share your experience witnessing and you know treating patients, clients, and marginalized communities that are experiencing this exacerbated educational inequality with less protection from the internet as it pertains to phone and social media use?
00:54:25
Speaker
so A larger chunk of my patient population is probably going to fall under that single parent household sort of situation. Or I have a large group who is like foster care and maybe their grandma is their guardian or their grandpa or something like that. And so yes, I mean, it's really hard when parents are working one or two jobs even to provide for the family. And so that means that kids are going to be on their own more and to
00:54:56
Speaker
I just think of it in terms of like, again, that frontal lobe isn't fully developed. Like they're going to make the the choice that feels best in the moment. And that's going to be, let me pick this up and go to it and do what feels fun and comfortable and easy and not be bored. So almost like the phone is a babysitter sort of thing. Sometimes that's not the case for every family, but.
00:55:17
Speaker
I also think about it in terms of like how that plays out from a socioeconomic standpoint. So what are a lot of the things that you would maybe do after school as like middle income family? Maybe play sports or go be on a league team or something and a lot of those things are very expensive to sign up to buy the uniforms to get transportation there. After school programs that are going to be like healthy fun things for kids are costly and A lot of my families just don't have access or resources for those things. And so what happens is you're at home and there's screens there. And so that's kind of the natural go to progression. um Again, not a blanket statement, but just sometimes seeing that play out more often than not. We're thinking about safety being a factor too, I have.
00:56:12
Speaker
Some kids where we talk about the importance of like putting the phone down, getting outside, going on a walk, going to the park and parents are like, well, I'm working in the evenings and our park isn't safe. I would never let them go there. And so that's a barrier as well. Um, so yeah, I think it plays out in a lot of different ways. There's a lot of factors that go into it. That kind of, I can just set a little, sort of a roadblock in the way, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Roadblocks. That's a good term.
00:56:40
Speaker
Sometimes these are systemic roadblocks too that we've created too. Yeah. Thanks. I would agree with every bit of that, that access to activities, access to transportation, having access to environments that feel safe to go to a library or go to a park or what if transportation from school to home is an hour long bus ride.
00:57:07
Speaker
And maybe that bus is stuck in traffic and then you've added on an extra hour as a parent. I'd probably want to check in with my kid and make sure they're getting home, right? Yeah. All of that. It's, it's just barrier after barrier. So it's definitely a larger systemic issue. Yeah. No, it's a heavy question. So I just, that, that part of the book really stuck out to me. So yeah. Thinking of a ah different question to add to the, to the conversation. So I appreciate it. Yeah.
00:57:37
Speaker
Yeah, thanks, Garrett. We'll kind of wrap up here. So in the last section of the book, the author gives us collective action steps for a healthier future. Jamie, I know you kind of shared some of the resources that you found could be beneficial or have been beneficial. Two questions in one. So maybe pick one just based on time, but maybe if there are some in particular, some collective action steps that that maybe we haven't hit on,
00:58:06
Speaker
feel free to share those or I know you know some of the conversation has been a little heavier so maybe if you would want to share while protecting privacy maybe a remarkable situation of like a turnaround right you're obviously working with these kids these children And, uh, you know, I'm sure you're seeing improvements in some of them. Uh, obviously that's your, your job and your goal with them. So maybe. Could you share about some remarkable experiences as well and where things really turned the corner for some of these kids? I can't say that I've had any, but like remarkable, like when, as whenever it comes to.
00:58:50
Speaker
setting good boundaries with cell phones. I don't think I've unfortunately had anything that's been remarkable. I think again, it's just boundaries and sticking to those boundaries and then also having kids buy in and how do you have buy in on something that everybody else is doing, right?
Managing Children's App Usage and Promoting Reading
00:59:08
Speaker
I will say though, there's a couple of clients that come to mind that are really good at setting boundaries of Like, I'm not going to snare share that on Snapchat because I know that soand-o so-and-so will get jealous. But then her then the friends will turn around and do it. And then they're like, well, sure enough, she got jealous. But I think there are some that are trying to kind of toe the line of like being a little bit different, but like kind of quickly get sucked back into it, if that makes sense. One thing that I do want to touch on, just collective action piece, if
00:59:43
Speaker
People that are listening are parents and they have kids that want a cell phone or want a tablet or want an iPad. You as a parent need to understand the apps that kids are using, how to set protective parental controls, understand the ins and outs of the app. And I know that's not something we're used to doing because we didn't really have access to a lot of that stuff. but If your kids want Snapchat, explore Snapchat. What does that look like for you? If you're putting in your like child's not saying like pretend to be a 13 year old, that's strange, but yeah,
01:00:28
Speaker
yeah but like if you're looking at things from a 13 year old lens, I know on Snapchat you have access to people in your surrounding area, random strangers you can turn your location on.
01:00:41
Speaker
So if I'm a mom of a 13-year-old, I do not want strangers knowing where my daughter is. I do not want her talking to random people. That's weird and dangerous. So I think if we can understand the technology our kids want to use, then we can protect them better.
01:01:04
Speaker
i i don't I don't know if I read this in the book or read it or like heard this somewhere, but I really compare it to if I'm going to tell my daughter, go drive. and I just hand her the keys to the car and say, go do it. and I never teach her how to drive the car. I don't even know how to drive the car, but I'm just like, here are the keys, go drive. That's so dangerous. Why would I ever do that? That's not good to do.
01:01:31
Speaker
And I think if we think about things, so that's our physical world, right? If we think about things in the digital world and we're like, here's a cell phone, do whatever you want with it. It's kind of the same thing. It's just not something we can directly see always, but the danger is just as significant. Yeah, that's good. I don't remember reading that, so I think it must be from a different book, so. Or my brain, Garrett. I don't know.
01:02:02
Speaker
No, I'm just saying, you're like, I don't know if I read it or not. it's like i don't know you sure read I did read that. that yeah's ah That's good stuff. Yeah. As far as like anything remarkable, i I think small changes can be really remarkable when you see like a 13 year old or a 15 year old actually A, recognize that there is a need for change and B, follow through with it, like set a goal and follow through. And so,
01:02:31
Speaker
For instance, like if I have a kid who's on their phone 10 hours a day, I'll say, okay, when we follow up about your headaches in two weeks, let's try to cut that back. like How much do you think, realistically, you could cut back on your phone knowing that our goal is to get closer to like maybe two or three hours a day or less? I'm like, hey, if you wanna just stop cold turkey and say, oh yeah, this week I'm gonna do two hours a day, that's it, and I'm bound to determine, like maybe, but chances are you're probably not going to be able. That's not a sustainable goal and a sustainable change. And so like they'll set little goals. Like I want to cut back an hour a day and they'll come back to their follow up appointment and they've done it for the most part. And like, to me, that's remarkable. And I think that's a great thing because it shows their, their heart and their mind for change and recognizing that this is important.
01:03:25
Speaker
and that they can do it. And so I've had a few patients like that who have created some small goals and followed through on that. And I'm hoping that they'll continue to do that in other aspects too and just continue on healthy paths with that. So that's been cool to see that. Yeah. As far as, um, thoughts are like collective action.
01:03:48
Speaker
I'm a pediatrician, so I have to say it, but reading is so important. Start young and start small. And so reading to your children when they are little infants, they don't understand what you're saying, but truly what that's doing in their brain is something fantastic and that will carry through into other aspects of their growth and development and mental health later. And not only what it'll do for like relational bonding between parents and children,
01:04:18
Speaker
There's just so much robust research around what reading can do for children. And so, yes, I would encourage any parents listening, like read to your children, you know, when they're young and incorporate that into bedtime routines. Let that be something that they derive joy from later on and hopefully, you know,
01:04:36
Speaker
Sometimes it's going to replace picking up the phone or picking up the Xbox controller, but maybe they're going to turn to a book and read that. I just think that is one small, small thing that can make a huge difference as far as like cultivating hobbies and interests and things that lie outside of just screen time. Get them on Jamie's book,
01:05:02
Speaker
baby. We have dreamed Jerry 2025. Yeah, I know. It was a goal for this year, but that didn't happen. A lot of good stuff there. Obviously, the stronghold that it has on us is real. It has on children is real. But really, Jamie, I liked what you were saying too. It's just the opportunity for course correct here or to get it right for further generations, right? So if we get it right in our generation, hopefully our kids will recognize the value and the decisions that we made for them
01:05:37
Speaker
that can help them kind of get it right as this thing kind of catapults and snowballs and goes into the stratosphere of what it's going to look like in 10 to 20 years. But sorry, can I say one more thing real fast? Yes. Sorry. OK, so I think as I talk about this with a lot of parents are like, well, do I just take it away? I think that that's an important piece, too. OK, so we have this information we've already given our kid a phone. So now do we just take it away for them?
01:06:06
Speaker
No. I think having that conversation and Brooke you may have some thoughts too of having that conversation of what is healthy phone use look like. Do we notice changes in our behavior. Can we start better bedtime routines. And like you said like that course correct a little bit. It's not taken away you're grounded from it because I read this book and it's bad. That's not what we're saying. It's just being more aware of the impacts and having open conversations about the impacts that we're seeing.
01:06:36
Speaker
and getting their buy-in for those changes. Yeah. Yeah. No, buy-in is, I think, huge there and obviously the free will component too, right? If if they decide themselves that this is not good for them, there's probably going to be greater buy-in in that than an authoritative approach. So I know we kind of hit on that.
01:07:00
Speaker
Matt, I know you and Thomas kind of shared about, well, I'm going to find my way around it regardless if it's an authoritative yeah kind of approach to it as well. So thank you for sharing
Conclusion and Gratitude
01:07:11
Speaker
that. But we just wanted to thank Brooke and Jamie for joining us for the discussion tonight. ah One of our goals with the podcast was to encourage and promote positive mental health through learning and deeper connections.
01:07:24
Speaker
And we knew that having both of you would help enhance that experience. So we thank you both for that. And we hope that you, the listeners also benefited from our panel of experts today as well. So thank you. Round of applause. It's been great having you both. Jamie, can you share a little bit more of what you're doing around the community?
01:07:51
Speaker
Sure. So um I share lots on my social media at Balance and Bloom STL. And then on October 21st for anybody in the St. Louis area, we are hosting a Anxious Generation kind of special edition book club. This will actually be the second one. The first one I was in the audience and then I got connected with the ladies that were leading it who our parents to community members in the St. Louis area with kids that are a little bit older too. So we've kind of paired up and we're working on doing another book discussion again. So if you guys are interested, you can check out Novel Neighbor. Trying to say that clearly. um October 21st registration isn't required, but it's encouraged. We think we're going to have a really big turnout because this book is getting so much buzz. So
01:08:43
Speaker
so just google novel neighbor and you find more andfo yeah and o v make a visit ah yeah
01:08:55
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Books Brothers
01:09:20
Speaker
If you've enjoyed listening and or benefited from our conversation,