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30. Bitter or Better: You Choose! - With Lisa Price
70 Plays5 years ago
It was an honor to interview Lisa Price during this episode and hear about how in her grief journey, after the death of her daughter Ari, she had the choice to be Bitter or Better. She chose Better, and is now helping countless other parents with their grief journey.
Lisa Price is grief wellness coach, the founder of Grieve. Breathe. Believe., and creator of the 4:13 Method - a self-guided online course emphasizing best practices and the importance of holistic, daily dedicated self-care; physical fitness, nutrition, journaling, meditation, mindfulness, and more. She facilitates a safe, yet productive community for grieving parents to rediscover and reconstruct a life of meaning and purpose after the death of their child.
She is married to Brandon and the mother of two; her 8-year-old son, Chase, and daughter, Ari, who died in April 2017.
After her daughter's death, Lisa soon realized there were not nearly enough resources and supports for a loss requiring extra special care and attention. Working with experts in the field of grief and bereavement, prioritizing her own healing and 'grief work', she felt called to fill the gap. It then became her mission to provide a platform with continuous, consistent, and constructive support to help bereaved parents walking a very similar journey. Along with the self-guided course, she offers group and 1:1 coaching. She hosts live workshops and events, virtual conferences, and has written resource guides for both bereaved parents and those supporting them in grief, sharing tips, tools, and tangible action steps for their lifelong journey. She is QPR certified and is currently writing a children's grief book. Lisa firmly believes that by honoring your life, you honor your child.
Contact Lisa:
IG: www.instagram.com/grievebreathebelieve
FB: www.facebook.com/betternotbittermom
Website: www.grievebreathebelieve.com
4:13 Method: www.413movementmethod.com
Music:
www.oneplanetmusic.com
Production:
Carlos Andres Londono
Contact Kendra for coaching or to be a guest:
Website: www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
email: griefgratitudepodcast@gmail.com
FB; https://www.facebook.com/griefgratitudepodcast
IG: https://instagram.com/grifgratitudepodcast
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Transcript
A Son's Wisdom on Death
00:00:01
Speaker
He rushed over to me, put his hands on my cheeks, and lifted up my face. And he said, Mama, we will see her again. If she dies, we will see her again. And we didn't even talk about death. And that's where it's like your heart is like, holy cow, my kid just aged in front of my eyes. And that to me was bitter and sweet. Like he's such a wise soul for how old he was when he found all this out. And
00:00:30
Speaker
It also is sad because it's like he had to grow up and know what death was at such a young age.
Purpose of the Podcast
00:00:47
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:04
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:01:26
Speaker
I'd like to welcome you all to today's episode.
Interview with Lisa Price
00:01:31
Speaker
Today I have the honor of interviewing somebody I am speaking with for the first time, Lisa Price, who is the founder of Grieve, Breathe, Believe.
00:01:45
Speaker
She herself is a grief wellness coach, and she founded this organization based on her own grief experience, which we will hear about today. But she helps other bereaved parents go through their grieving process and accompany them in that journey. And I am just so honored to have you on, Lisa. Welcome. Thank you so much, Kendra. The honor is all mine. This is such a privilege.
00:02:14
Speaker
Thank you so much for accepting even though we do not know each other. Isn't it amazing that after starting, I don't know if this happened to you, but after starting like the Instagram page for this podcast is when I realized this amazing community that is.
00:02:29
Speaker
out there of support and other people that are doing very similar work to support others that are grieving. So yeah, it's just amazing. So thank you again for agreeing to be here. Thank you. Of course. Thank you so much. So Lisa, tell us a little bit about you, your
Lisa's Grief Journey
00:02:47
Speaker
family. Where do you live? What do you do? And then we'll dive into the meaty part of this conversation in a little bit.
00:02:57
Speaker
you had mentioned that I'm a grief wellness coach for bereaved parents. I myself became a bereaved parent in 2017. So my inspiration of starting Grief, Breathe, Believe and the course that I created for bereaved parents is inspired by my daughter and of course my son too is eight years old now. I am also a dance teacher so I have
00:03:25
Speaker
that aspect of movement to help me with my grieving process. And I use my 30 plus years of both dancing myself and teaching just to help with overall wellness as one of the main focuses for bereaved parents as they grieve. So we live in a suburb just west of Milwaukee in Wisconsin.
00:03:49
Speaker
I've been married for nine years to my very supportive and amazing husband, Brandon. And like I said, we have two children, Chase, who is eight years old, and then Ari, who passed away about three and a half years ago. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. What kind of dance do you teach? Mainly, I am like the contemporary ballet jazz teacher, but I was trained all the way
00:04:17
Speaker
through my dance career in tap and ballet, jazz, lyrical, contemporary. So it's just been a part of my life and a true passion of mine for a long time. And now I see it as.
00:04:30
Speaker
less competitive and more of it's an actual healing and therapeutic. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask. Which one of the modalities do you feel that when you're dancing, you actually are able to move through your grief, you know, that allows you to move your grief through even
Grieving vs. Mourning
00:04:48
Speaker
more? Which modality do you use for that? I love lyrical because it is connecting to the actual lyrics of the songs that you're using. And Hillsong is one of my favorite, favorite groups.
00:05:00
Speaker
So I use a lot of writing that down. Yeah, you gotta listen to them They are one of my favorite groups to listen to and to choreograph to They're a Christian band that comes out of Australia but Just any any slow moving so that I don't have to rush through any slow moving lyrics and songs I'm able to create that movement to express what's going on in the inside and
00:05:29
Speaker
and get it out of my body in a way that helps me mourn because grieving is different, obviously, than mourning. Mourning is that awkward expression. And to the
00:05:39
Speaker
To my students or to the naked eye, nobody would think I'm mourning, I'm just dancing. But yeah, lyrical by far is my favorite because I connect to the music the most and just let the music kind of move my body and it helps me heal. That is so awesome. You know, I heard that description, that difference, and I'm going to, here's my, here's when I, I told you my accent would come out at some point. The difference, you see differentiation, I can't, the difference. Let me just put it, let's just see.
00:06:09
Speaker
It's the difference between grieving and mourning. Grieving just happens to us. And mourning is something we actually do in order to help us grieve. So mourning is the action of, so the dance, the journaling, the writing a poem, the planting a tree in honor of somebody. So that's the action. And it's so interesting because I had never, and I'm trying to think if in Spanish, I don't think we have
00:06:36
Speaker
a word for mourning. And so I had never really realized that difference between the two until not long ago, actually, until I started doing work in the grieving community. Same here. Yeah, it's so interesting. Yeah, because we just associated being like the same. But yeah, it's a little different.
00:06:54
Speaker
So take it, so you've been married for nine years. Tell us a little bit, how did you and Brandon or Brenda? Did you say E or A? Brandon. I always have to. How did you and Brandon meet and a little bit about your family dynamics? Sure.
Lisa's Love Story
00:07:11
Speaker
We met actually, it's probably almost 19 years ago. So we've been together for quite some time, but just a birthday party of like a mutual friend. So we were out.
00:07:22
Speaker
Um, and he made me laugh like nobody's ever made me laugh. And it was an immediate connection. However, I was seeing someone else at the time, but spent, spent, you know, most of the party talking to him and was just very entertained by him and just, you know, it, it, it made me feel good. Um, so three months later, no, he knew, um,
00:07:49
Speaker
But then literally three months to the day, I had already broken up with the other guy I was with, but we ended up seeing each other just by chance again. And just, he remembered my first and last name and every part of the conversation that we had. And I just thought that was so special and so unique because no one has ever made me feel that way. You know, like nobody ever made me feel like they cared that much about every detail that I had talked about. So.
00:08:16
Speaker
Just conversation was great. And obviously, like I said, he made me laugh. So yeah, we waited about nine years before we got married, just dating. I mean, we never were on or off, but just really enjoyed being together and enjoyed one another's friendship, as well as the love that was building. And we got married in Mexico, actually in Cabo.
00:08:39
Speaker
right in front of the ocean and it was very hot and sweaty, but it was perfect. I saw that picture and it's so beautiful. How many people were able to attend the wedding since it was a wedding? Believe it or not, we had 13 people there and 13 is
00:09:04
Speaker
really special number for us. So 13 people were there. Yeah. And that's one of the things I'll ask you to because of your, I realized that your program that you do is for 13. And I want to ask more about that when we get to that point. So why that is so important. So then you got married. So then how, I mean, your oldest is eight now. So what were your planning in terms of parenting and so forth?
00:09:35
Speaker
Well, we got married a little, I mean, we weren't older. I mean, we were a little older, but we knew we wanted to start a family right away just because of our age. I was 32, and then we got pregnant with our son. So within, I would say a few months, we got pregnant with him, yes. So he is, yes, now eight years old. And his pregnancy, I mean, during that, I mean, I think my body was made to be pregnant because I was never, never had morning sickness.
00:10:04
Speaker
my labor and delivery was people are going to hate me for this, but very almost painless. Like I didn't know I was having contractions when I went to the hospital after my water broke and they're like, you're having a major contraction right now. And I'm like, Oh, cool. If this is what it's going to be like then, you know, so yeah, it was,
00:10:23
Speaker
It's so interesting how we have to be like careful about like sharing. I know. I have two sisters that, you know, have had, you know, morning sickness and lots of what is that heartburn and, you know, just uncomfortableness. So, yes, I tiptoe around when I say how well my pregnancies went.
00:10:51
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Okay. So then you had easy then delivery. And then how old was he then when you guys started either? Did you guys start planning for, you know, being pregnant again? Or was it you just kind of just allow the course of things to just kind of happen? Did you guys know that you wanted more than one child? We definitely knew we wanted more than one. And we waited a little bit just so that we
00:11:19
Speaker
you know, gave Chase the opportunity to be the baby and to, you know, just experience what it's like to be with just mom and dad. And, you know, kind of wanted him out of diapers too, before trying again. But, you know, when we started trying, it was, you know, just kind of putting in God's hands. Like we, I never was like a counter or kept track of anything fertility wise, just kind of let nature
00:11:46
Speaker
do its thing and we ended up getting pregnant pretty easily with our daughter Ari. When you were ready. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yep. So now we're going to talk a little bit about Ari. And so tell us then about your pregnancy with her.
Facing Challenges with Ari
00:12:03
Speaker
Still very similar. However, at 13 weeks gestation, Ari was diagnosed with trisomy 13, which is a chromosomal disorder or abnormality.
00:12:16
Speaker
And the reason that we found that out was I was of advanced maternal age, so my doctor had suggested getting the screening done for that. And this is quote unquote, she said, for peace of mind. So now kind of looking back, because we didn't obviously do that with Chase, I was a little bit younger. But looking back, it was kind of like, yeah.
00:12:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I was 37. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like geriatric, right? I know, right? Yeah, they do. They do. So weird. They make you feel really good. Now I see the 13 right here. So that was a year's one time. And the 13 weeks and it was Trisomy, the name Trisomy 13. Mm-hmm.
00:13:06
Speaker
Um, so like I said, trisomy 13 is a chromosomal abnormality. So everybody has two chromosomes in every cell of their body. Um, two of each chromosome, I should say. And, uh, trisomy 13 means the 13th chromosome she had try. So three. Um, so that just affects a lot of development, um, of the organs. Um, every trisomy 13 cases very different. So they try to, um, give you, you know, some.
00:13:33
Speaker
some measure of what to expect, but like I said, every case is different, every child is different. And most, unfortunately, most parents are told that their child is incompatible with life. And fortunately, our medical team, our doctors did not say that to us because, as I had said to you before in our pre-interview, I would have wanted to punch the doctor if that would have came out of their mouth.
00:14:02
Speaker
because I believe every life, every child's life is precious and is a gift and obviously a miracle. So they have to give you the choice to choose to carry or terminate and without question we chose to continue and carry. So from there it was that anticipatory grief because you are told that they have a lot of life limiting
00:14:28
Speaker
abnormalities and when you go to, you know, ultrasound after ultrasound, um, they'll, they'll tell you all the things that are wrong. Um, but fortunately we had a medical team that was very sensitive to that and, um, told us more things that was going right. Um, of course they kept, you know, very factual, but they also gave us things to hope for and, um, Ari kept fighting. I mean, she was in fact like thriving in my tummy. Um,
00:14:57
Speaker
she was a little bit smaller, but, you know, a couple of heart issues, but she kept surviving. And that was amazing to us. And, you know, we continue to pray for a miracle. All the while, you know, you're still trying to plan for what the future would hold if we were to bring home a child who would have such special needs and need, you know, extreme medical assistance. So we
00:15:23
Speaker
Like I said, we're very fortunate that we had a medical team that was very caring about our daughter. And we, in fact, at one ultrasound had a nurse who asked if she could share her story of her daughter who had trisomy 18. And she passed away a few days after her birth at their family home. And the words that she said to me that still to this day stick with me,
00:15:51
Speaker
um, and have helped me on my grief journey the most is, um, you can let this make you better or better and you get to choose. So ever since those words left her mouth and say, can you say, can you say that again? You can let this make you better or better. You get to choose.
Faith and Anticipatory Grief
00:16:12
Speaker
You get to choose. Yeah. And actually that is like my LLC is actually better, not bitter mom. Um,
00:16:20
Speaker
and ended up doing a DBA with grieve, breathe, believe just because of searchable reasons and everything. But to this day, better not bitter is what gets me up, what helps me choose. Even going from bitterness to anger, it's that next step up. It's that next reach higher to feel better.
00:16:40
Speaker
Wow. During that time then of that anticipatory grief, did you guys have any support of, for example, other people that maybe had children with special needs and preparing yourselves for what that was going to be, maybe preparing yourselves if she was not going to live? What were some of those things you did during that process or was it something you just did as a family?
00:17:10
Speaker
Mainly as a family because we knew that we wanted to keep her comfortable. We didn't wish to do any extreme measures because it didn't change the fact that she had trisomy 13. Her brain wouldn't tell her organs what they needed to do. We even went for like a second opinion about her heart to see if heart surgery was an option. And, you know, again, even if she had heart surgery, it wasn't going to change the fact that her brain would not be able to tell her heart
00:17:37
Speaker
actually what to do. She wouldn't know if she was hungry. She wouldn't know if she needed to go to the bathroom. And so we just chose to do what we could to keep her comfortable and feel loved the entire time. So our medical team, they knew our birth plan. We did fill that out. We met with social workers and everybody that comes in the room as they're gearing up for your labor.
00:18:06
Speaker
and delivery process. Um, our family was huge. And of course our, our faith was like, I, I can't look back and imagine not having the faith that we do. It's not perfect, but it's there. And yes, it is our foundation. Um,
00:18:33
Speaker
So yeah, that anticipatory grief, it's like you're trying to plan, like I said, for this miracle because you know, God is capable of that. And at the same time, the worldly version of us is like, well, we have to plan something. We have to either plan bringing her home. Do we have to move? You know, we have to call a funeral home in case that happens. So it was just emotions all over the place. But luckily, you know, we do have a great family support system.
00:19:02
Speaker
And like I said, our faith in our church.
00:19:06
Speaker
It's so interesting when you were talking about the planning, right? Because a lot of us, when we're expecting, we want to know the gender of our child so we could plan. Oh, let's plan. Let's plan. Is it going to be a pink? Are we going to paint the wall pink? Are we going to pick the, you know, blue, this, what are we going to buy? And those things that are looking at it now, I like, I found out both genders of my children and partly was because of these things and like thinking that it's so
00:19:34
Speaker
Oh my gosh, like so superficial at the end of the day because it's like all right, so trivial compared to the type of thoughts and emotions that went into the process of your pregnancy and the thinking of not knowing.
00:19:56
Speaker
It just puts things in perspective. Okay, I'm like here, here come the chills, here come my goosebumps again. I always have those moments in these conversations that just
00:20:11
Speaker
Oh, thank you for sharing that. And though holding onto your faith, had faith been a part of your life, all your life, had it been how you'd been brought up, had it been something that you as a couple had embraced or as a family in your, or how was it that you were brought up? Both my husband and I were raised Catholic.
00:20:38
Speaker
Um, but it wasn't until after we actually got married that, um, we were re-baptized, um, in a non-denominational Christian church, um, that we called home. Um, and going to that church and, um, literally getting into the word is where our lives changed. Um, and we, you know, had a relationship with God and it wasn't just, I mean, my Catholic church, I went to school kindergarten through eighth grade. We went to church every single day.
00:21:08
Speaker
but I don't remember opening a Bible once, you know, so it was just very regimented, very mechanical. Yes, I didn't feel that connection. Yes, I had that belief, but I didn't feel it. So your connection really started then after you were married, so just a few years prior to her birth. So that is amazing because had you not had already that
00:21:35
Speaker
connection and belief, who knows how differently your grieving process might've been too, had you not really had that trust and faith in God's will. So now when she, tell us a little bit about her birth and then what happened next. Sure. Well, she came
Ari's Brief Life
00:21:57
Speaker
on her own terms. My water broke at 37 weeks and four days, which was the exact amount of time that I was pregnant with my son before my water broke.
00:22:05
Speaker
Um, and so she, um, was born just after midnight on April 13th, 2017. Um, you know, she suffered a few, uh, apnea episodes, um, but came through, you know, while we were in the hospital, um, her brother and extended family, um, met her and we of course had the pastor from our church come and, um, you know, just dedicate her life to God. Um, you know, we were able to bathe her. We were able to read to her, my son.
00:22:35
Speaker
I was just learning how to read at four. And so he even read a little special book to her that still sits on his nightstand. And just cuddled her and gave her every ounce of love that we could. And that's what she gave back, right? As a baby, they can't do too much else other than just give you all of what they are. And one of our goals was to get her home. So as soon as my epidural wore off,
00:23:05
Speaker
And we decided, you know, not to take any extreme medical intervention. We were able to drive her home and she lived a total of nine hours and 51 minutes. But after we stepped foot inside our house, she lived for 30 minutes and then passed away peacefully in my left arm.
00:23:22
Speaker
Which one you told me that I just could just just picture that you know her right next to your heart in that moment when you said left arm and very specifically I could feel that that was that connection to your heart and your your whole being
00:23:38
Speaker
I saw a picture you posted of Chase holding her and his gleaming smiling face just radiating joy. It was just so moving and to know first off that you have these pictures of her and that he has pictures with his sister
00:23:58
Speaker
and that he got to meet her. How did you talk to your four-year-old either? Did you talk to him through the process of your pregnancy about the fact that maybe, no? Did he talk about it? Okay. How was that conversation? Would you mind sharing that? Absolutely. Well, first of all, he is like our real life superhero because he
00:24:24
Speaker
even throughout the pregnancy, but now just watching him as an eight-year-old develop still brings her up every day. We still pray to her for her blow kisses to the sky. He draws, every time he draws about our family, she is literally there in that picture. So he is in the truest form, the best big brother that we could have ever asked for. And I know she's so proud of him.
00:24:54
Speaker
But yeah, throughout the pregnancy, he, I feel like it was a week before we found out that she had Trisomy 13 that we told him that he was going to be a big brother. And we have the video of that and everything and you know, ear to ear smile and just so over the moon because he had been asking for a sibling for quite some time. And
00:25:18
Speaker
Once we found out that she was sick, that's kind of what we said in the beginning. Obviously we didn't say trisomy 13 or maybe we did, but it wasn't something that, you know, he would memorize obviously. So we just said her heart was sick because that was definitely probably the biggest issues, one of the issues that she had. But, you know, bought books to kind of prepare him for a sister who might look different, might have tubes, might have
00:25:47
Speaker
you know, um, before we knew if she had a cleft palate, you know, we talked about her face might have some, some holes in it and you might, um, you might, um, see some things that you don't typically see and she might not be able to come home and play the way that normal sisters come home and play. She might not be able to come home at all. And so I remember distinctly and I wrote this in my journal, um,
00:26:15
Speaker
one day when we were playing on the floor together in the living room and he had said, so Ari's not gonna be able to come home and play. And I said, well, we don't know that yet, but we're gonna pray that she gets to do that. But if not, just know that she is always your sister and you are always her big brother. And so then I started to cry and he rushed over to me, put his hands on my cheeks and lifted up my face. And he said, mama, we will see her again.
00:26:46
Speaker
If she dies, we will see her again. And we didn't even talk about death. You know, it was just, yeah. And that's where it's like, your heart is like, holy cow, my kid just aged in front of my eyes. And that to me was bitter sweet. Like he's such a wise soul for how old he was when he found all this out. And it also is sad because it's like he had to grow up and know what death was at such a young age. Um,
00:27:16
Speaker
But I'm thankful that we didn't say that, you know, like sugar coat anything or, you know, we were, we were truthful and honest from the beginning. And I think that is so important and we use the word death.
00:27:29
Speaker
or died. We didn't use the word like she fell asleep because I didn't want him to be afraid of falling asleep or think that she was going to wake up. That is so important what you're sharing right now. So important because that words are so powerful and we sometimes end up sugarcoating things because we think that we're doing
00:27:50
Speaker
our kids good by doing that. Just like, I mean, this happens in even other moments in life. I've had this conversation with like, for example, when a pet, this is like when a pet dies, right? These are moments of an opportunity to be able to start introducing our children
00:28:08
Speaker
to the concept of death and yet sometimes we still choose to protect them from that experience by saying that the dog just went to a farm or the dog is not explaining what happened and we are missing out on those opportunities sometimes to really be able to prepare
00:28:34
Speaker
our children, and I think a lot of us, you know, probably were sheltered in certain opportunities in our life because our parents were trying to protect us from going through grief, right? Yet at the same time, it would be so harmful too. So that is a wonderful learning experience that you just shared there about really being open with. And even though he was young, you were still open with all the possibilities that could come of that.
00:29:04
Speaker
So once she passed away, then like how was that moment? How was it for you? She's in your arms in that moment. What happened? I was forever changed in that moment and like the nine hours and 51 minutes that she was alive was the most present I have ever been in my life and at the most at peace because I know
00:29:31
Speaker
I was such a forward thinker, worrier, um, and even past thinker of like, what did I do wrong? And, you know, what could I have changed and always kind of created this, um, almost self suffering, um, or self-sabotaging the current moment because I was always worried about what was ahead or thinking back to what had already happened. So a gift that she gave me, you know, was definitely being present and teaching me to do so.
00:29:57
Speaker
Um, because all that was happening in those nine hours and 51 minutes of probably chaos going around, you know, on around us and everyone else being very worried and unsure to how to help us and, you know, medical staff coming in and out of the room. We were so at peace because our family of four was together and all I wanted her to feel and all my husband and son wanted her to feel was loved and held and warmed and comforted.
00:30:23
Speaker
So she taught us to just be in the present moment that you're currently in. And that's just one of the many lessons that I continue to take forward with me on this journey.
00:30:35
Speaker
That is just so beautiful. Thank you. So beautiful. So what are some of the ways and what did you all do as a family to honor her? I mean, you honor her even just now with the work you do. But how was her passing, her memorial, or what kind of ways did you do to honor her life in that moment? Well, our family came over immediately after she had died.
00:31:05
Speaker
And so we had a few hours before we had to give her physical body over to the funeral home. And the three of us took Ari in our bedroom and the four of us were together and prayed over her and said kind of our final goodbyes before the funeral home came. And that was probably actually the most traumatic part was actually giving over her physical body.
00:31:31
Speaker
I kept saying in my head, this is not her anymore. Her spirit, her soul is in heaven. Um, this is just her, her tent, her shell. And that's what we all are. And we will see her again. So it was still obviously the most devastating and excruciating thing to do. Um, but I think if I wouldn't have my faith, right. Um, and knowing that I will see her again and knowing that that is an absolute promise that I hold on to.
00:31:58
Speaker
that I am able to be courageous and brave and live out this life in the way that God is willing me to do. So I think that was both obviously a gift from Ari and from God of showing that courage and that bravery that she displayed to survive pregnancy, labor, and delivery and to make it here to us, to make it to our family home. How could I not be forever inspired by that? So it's an honor and a gift to share her life, her story in the work that
00:32:27
Speaker
that I'm doing now. We did have a memorial for her about a week later. She was cremated and literally on the way to the memorial, the funeral home said her cremains were ready to be picked up. So we actually had her ashes at the memorial service and we weren't supposed to. So that was another gift.
00:32:56
Speaker
And it was a very small, um, very small celebrations, a slash memorial. Um, just to sell, I mean, I do call it a celebration because I wanted to celebrate her, you know, her fight to get here. Um, and I spoke, um, I still have the handwritten, um, letter, um, on my nightstand. Um, and Chase, actually our son,
00:33:24
Speaker
little comic relief walked around with a Kleenex box and kept giving Kleenexes to everybody. So there's my yes, there's my little superhero again. And my brother-in-law actually surprised me and spoke and so did my older sister. So it was just, you know, so much love and just expansiveness and connection that happened, you know, in our family just from
00:33:52
Speaker
that short amount of time that they got to meet Ari too. It was like she is forever ingrained in everybody's heart, everybody's head, and has made our family even stronger.
00:34:02
Speaker
extended family. I was going to ask that because it's definitely changed the core of your unit. So how has it been then for not only her life, but also for people around you seeing those that are close to you, seeing how you guys have assimilated and
00:34:23
Speaker
been carrying your journey, your grief journey. How has it impacted their life? What are some of those things you've seen in the family dynamics that, I don't know if you've already kind of noticed some of those? Well, for sure, just like I said, the connectedness. I mean, I was close with my siblings, but it brought us even closer. And my girlfriend,
00:34:51
Speaker
She would always go to church, but her husband wouldn't. So I remember her, I even saved the text. Her texting me a message and saying, Ari is moving in so many ways beyond what you are sometimes aware of. And she said her husband had gone to church with her for the first time. We sent out postcards because we had lots of people obviously sending things to us. And we even had a GoFundMe page that
00:35:21
Speaker
a bunch of friends had started. So we sent out a postcard that had her picture on it. And her name means Lion of God, too. So that was something that we always, you know, wanted her to be remembered for was Ari Lion of God. So we sent out these postcards that I'm actually holding on to it right now. That said, you know, thank you for surrounding our family with prayers, love and support. God sent Ari not only for us, but for you to change your life and to draw you closer to God to seek refuge in him
00:35:51
Speaker
to understand he has never, nor will he ever abandon you. He is an everlasting God, encompassing all that is love. Ari is a reminder of that, a reminder to live life as God would want you to, and to see the world through the eyes of Jesus. And I think that's so important right now too, with everything that's going on in our world. So yeah, some people have said, wow, she's changed my life. She's brought me closer to God, or she has put so many things into perspective.
00:36:20
Speaker
You know, the days that I yell at my living children and I'm like, well, at least my living children are here to yell at each other, you know, when they're arguing, you know, um, and I'm sure there's, you know, unmentioned. Um, but to me, um, that's wonderful and that's great that she has impacted so many lies, but it also is more important to me that we continue to honor her life by honoring ours. And I have no control of.
00:36:47
Speaker
outside world stuff, right? I have no control over the energy of what everybody else, whether they choose to remember her or not, that's not my concern. My concern is that myself, my husband, my son, you know, my immediate family continue to just live our lives in a way that would honor her.
00:37:04
Speaker
Yes, that's just so beautiful but thank you for sharing because those ripple effects sometimes we don't even realize the effect we have in other people's lives. I was sharing with you before we started recording that my sister passed away and she was 18 and we did find out about like things have how her life had impacted other people's lives and her death you know how it had made other people's lives
00:37:26
Speaker
so much better because of how they've grown because of that experience. But a lot of times we don't even see it in our, we don't realize even in our lives how many lives were impacting. And this is a little angel that came for nine hours and 51 seconds, am I saying right? 51 minutes, yeah.
00:37:50
Speaker
51 minutes, sorry, nine hours, 51 minutes. And the impact that her short life still had in the souls that are on this earthly plane. And that's, I think that is such a big, big thing because a lot of times we end up
00:38:10
Speaker
saying, but why? Why were they taken so early? They didn't get to go to college or they didn't get to do this. We associate life in our timeline here by what time means for us on earth based on the sun. But time of the soul is so different.
00:38:31
Speaker
It's different. It doesn't go by those parameters. So seeing and hearing these stories of the impact is just very moving. So thank you. Thank you. Of course, thank you. Now share a little bit, Lisa, about then the
Inspiration to Help Others
00:38:49
Speaker
4.13 program you have, the things you now do. And then you can share a little bit how people can reach you and I'll make sure to include it in the show notes. But yeah, share a little bit of how that trans... Well, actually, how did you transition? How long did it take you to now create this? Let me backtrack. First, how long did it take you to then now when you realized? Yeah. Well, I knew
00:39:16
Speaker
Obviously that she was sent to us for a reason. Her nine hours and 51 minutes, like you said, I think she served her purpose. I would of course have loved, absolutely would give all of this back to have her back again. But I know that that is not an option. So I think, you know, in those nine hours and 51 minutes, she served her purpose to change the trajectory of my life. So like I said, I'm a dance teacher and I still love teaching dance, but I knew I was called to
00:39:44
Speaker
to help other bereaved parents, because I don't think there is enough or could ever be enough support for grief, especially for bereaved parents, because I think a lot of people are just so uncomfortable with the death of a child. Whether it's miscarriage, stillbirth, an older child, I just think a lot of society just is so uncomfortable with it. And I would like to help in that respect as well.
00:40:13
Speaker
But almost immediately it was just like, okay, what can I do? What can I do? Instead of asking why, I tried to turn my why to what now? What can I do with this? I have this pain and I don't want this pain to go away because that's my connection. That's my gift for knowing and loving Ari. But I don't want this pain to just be pain. I want this pain to serve a purpose. So, you know, I almost forced things for a while and it was almost backfired because I wasn't taking care of myself right away.
00:40:43
Speaker
Um, but then as soon as I kind of surrendered, um, and, and used movement, obviously being a dance teacher, that helped, but also working out was a great way for my husband to release and have that opportunity for us to do it together. It was such a bonding connecting moment. Um, actually my first workout back after, um, her death was probably about four weeks after. And we did a family workout in the back stairwell of our gym, just so that we.
00:41:11
Speaker
didn't have to talk to anybody, but we were able to move and just do our own thing. So I started to take care of myself. I started to do a lot of self-discovery, a lot of self-care stuff that I didn't do before I started to journal. I actually started journaling when I found out I was pregnant with her and did so with Chase too, and I continued to write in those journals. And just as many healing modalities that resonated with me, I clung to.
00:41:41
Speaker
I did see a therapist, I did EMDR therapy just for the trauma of helping lessen the trauma of giving her physical body over. That was so traumatic for me. So continuing with just self-care, regular self-care, and then reaching out for support, knowing that I couldn't do this alone.
00:42:06
Speaker
The support groups that are at the hospital were somewhat triggering just because they're at the hospital. So I knew that was for me. Um, I love, love, love, love hearing stories and sharing and holding that space, um, for everybody's journey. But I also like it to go somewhere. I'd like to have a facilitator that tells me, okay, now what can we do with this or what are your next steps or what are your goals? And I didn't find that. I didn't find that anywhere.
00:42:33
Speaker
Um, it wasn't until I worked with my own coach that, um, I started to, you know, have those tools, um, readily available, um, because they were all stuff that was from within. Um, I didn't have to necessarily go anywhere. Um, so that is what I started to create. And, um, it was last, um, June that I became better, not better mom, uh, LLC.
00:43:01
Speaker
And then I started to kind of create a journal. I started to dabble in writing. I started to try to figure out what it would look like for me to help brave parents. And all of a sudden these online courses were popping up all over the place. And I was like, well, could I do something like that that incorporates not only, you know, key grief concepts, but also workout videos and stretching and expressive movement.
00:43:27
Speaker
and confidence hunters of positive affirmations and journaling, just kind of like a hub for bereaved parents to have at their fingertips. So I worked very closely with the bereavement coordinator at our local children's hospital. She's been a godsend and just have everything clinically approved by her so that I didn't just put something out there that didn't have quality or wasn't accurate. Obviously, grief journeys are
00:43:55
Speaker
all very different. Not everything is going to resonate, but there are a lot of universal things that we thought were very important to get out there. I designed what's called the 4-13 method.
The 4-13 Method Explained
00:44:09
Speaker
It's 4.13 because that's Ari's birthday. Afterwards, I was like, now I know. As you're talking, I'm like, I know now. I'm like, I want to say like, I've watched a movie. And then I was like, oh, I know. I wanted the answer yet. I got it. Oh my gosh. So beautiful a way of honoring her. Okay. So sorry. Go ahead.
00:44:33
Speaker
But it's also my favorite Bible verse Philippians 4 13 I was good Christ who strengthens me and that was my favorite Bible verse before Ari was even you know a thought and it's tattooed on my spine now, so 4 13 is when you repeat the Bible verse, please again it is what Philippians 4 13 is I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me and certainly
00:45:01
Speaker
Certainly can. So 413, yeah. It has such a meaning for us as a family, but also the online course is for pillars of focus and kind of designed to take 13 weeks for you to go through. Obviously, grief never ends, but these are tools that you can continue to revisit because as your grief changes, some of these concepts are going to change.
00:45:31
Speaker
So we go through just content on grief, you know, foundations of understanding what grief is and then designing a grief map because I don't believe in the stages of grief. I think you go through different aspects and I think they're pit stops along your journey. So I actually have them draw out, you know, like a grief map and anger is a pit stop. So now when you're at that pit stop, what is going to get you through anger?
00:45:56
Speaker
Is it going to the batting cages? Is it mowing the lawn? Is it screaming into a pillow? Is it punching the pillow? Is it calling a friend? Is it taking a nap? You find out what works for you to process so you're actually able to process instead of just ignoring it. And then we go into- Is it dancing it out? Dancing it out. Do whatever, right? Yeah. So anything that you experience, I have them draw down on this grief map.
00:46:21
Speaker
Um, then we also talk about building your support system based on people's attributes. You know, is your listener actually a good listener or are you expecting someone like I did? I learned this the hard way. I was expecting someone who was not a good listener to listen to me and just be there without offering advice. And that backfired because I put the wrong person in the wrong role. So knowing that your listener is your listener or is your person who's really good at doing things, your implementer, are you putting them in
00:46:51
Speaker
the right position. Then there's somebody who can kind of occupy your time or be your distractor and give you a little bit of reprieve from your grief for a brief moment to step away from your grief for a little bit, because you're always going to go back to it, right? You can put it down. It's okay to put it down because you know, we are always going to pick him back up. And then even the people who are naysayers, kind of the people that, you know, maybe are in your social circle, but like to make it about them or, you know, they kind of thrive in the drama situation and kind of make your grief about them.
00:47:22
Speaker
And we go through a whole bunch of different things, you know, your emotional energy, setting boundaries, doing it almost an energy audit, like where are you, you know, expending your energy and where are you getting it back and is it balanced? Talks about, we talk about capacity, we talk about spouse and partner relationships, relationships with other people and understanding that you might not be at the top of their list, but your grief is always at the top of your list or your, you know, loss is always at the top of your list.
00:47:49
Speaker
We talk about different grieving styles, how you talk to yourself, self-talk and thought patterns, how important those are, and unpacking grief and secondary losses. That's huge because a lot of people...
00:48:00
Speaker
Forget it. Talk about the secondary loss. Yeah, because secondary loss is something that happens quite a bit, especially in dynamics. A lot of times of friendships, of how certain friendships get completely just end because sometimes after the ... Or you move somewhere and that's ...
00:48:21
Speaker
What are some of those secondary losses that you've seen in common in a lot of either your clients or even in your own life? I definitely think loss of future, loss of identity because those memories, those dreams that we pictured, your role, especially if that was maybe your only child, your role as a mom looks totally different.
00:48:49
Speaker
Even your role as a mom with surviving siblings, it looks different, or your role as a dad.
00:48:56
Speaker
It can affect, you know, secondary losses can be your humor. It can be your family structure. A lot of times divorces happen to a lot in the situations of bereaved parents. So that would be a secondary loss that might have not necessarily been that way, but because of different ways in which these two human beings grieved
00:49:20
Speaker
things kind of might've, you know, uh, changed. Okay. So those kinds of things. Okay. So you talk about all those things and then did I miss a step in you? Cause I interrupted, of course. Cause I, that's okay. Just like grief is not linear. My podcast isn't linear either. Yeah. So then, you know, there's, and just about expanding your world, because, you know, when you're, your grief takes up so much.
00:49:47
Speaker
Um, and especially in the beginning, but when you start to learn what kind of, um, not balances out, but how can you fill your world with things that are going to kind of, um, counterbalance the amount of pain that you're feeling to help that grief not get smaller, but actually grow your world around it. So your grief takes up less percentage and is less suffocating.
00:50:14
Speaker
Um, and then we talk about choosing the next better because obviously the words of that ultrasound tech that said, you know, this can make you better, better you get to choose. So what is, what is choosing the next better look for you? And, and, and it's you choosing. So it's empowering you to say that you get to choose. So I choose to get out of bed. I choose to make breakfast. I choose to go for a walk in nature.
00:50:39
Speaker
I choose to remember my child by doing this and do it without apology, without explanation.
00:50:46
Speaker
no one else needs to understand, right? It's for you. Wow. Especially when you had no choice in the aspect of your child dying, everything else from there on, you do have a choice in how you take every single... I tell this even to my kids and just in life is like, okay, this is the situation and this is a great learning in any situation, not just in the moments,
00:51:09
Speaker
of grief, but in any aspect of our life, we choose how we react to certain situations. We have that choice and we can react in a way that could take that completely go the opposite way. So that is a great, great learning experience. So do the people do this course as a group? Do they do it as individuals? Do they do it one-on-one with you? Is it an online course that they see you? How does that work? How does that dynamic work?
00:51:39
Speaker
So it's all delivered in videos in a PDF. Like the workbook is probably about 80 pages once it's printed off. Um, so you can do it as a self-guided, um, course, um, because it, like, like I said, it's, it's videos of me. So I'm literally talking to the camera and it's like, we're having this one-on-one conversation. I even had a client say that. Um, she was like, it was so refreshing because it didn't feel like school. It didn't feel like class. And when you hear the word course, it scares people off, but.
00:52:09
Speaker
It's literally learning tools, you know, watching me speak or even, you know, if you're not watching and you can do it on an app, you can just listen to it when maybe you're in your commute. And just the delivery. Yes, it's so simple. And there's there's three more pillars to the second pillar is just kind of coaching you through your wellness toolkit. So mind body and soul. So like I said, I have
00:52:38
Speaker
workout videos. I have mantras that you can say. I have a morning checklist. I have a hydration tracker, a workout tracker, tips for better sleep. I have a bunch of guest trainers that come in and talk about gut health too because of how your body can conserve energy when you feed it fuel.
00:53:01
Speaker
And then as far as like your spirit, your soul, writing a letter to your pain, writing a letter to your child, breathwork sessions, expressive movement, calming breathwork. So it's just filled with lots of different healing modalities to help you process your grief. And then community, everybody who purchases the course, there is a group coaching program option or a one-on-one and group coaching program option. But if you just choose to do the course by yourself, you're still included in the Facebook community and slack.com.
00:53:29
Speaker
Um, so that you're off of social media and you're able to, um, you know, kind of stay focused instead of distracted by all the social media scrolling, you have, um, and it's just a private way to be able to, um, communicate with everyone and you can ask questions. So we troubleshoot in there. We celebrate grief wins because celebrating any step in grief.
00:53:59
Speaker
in the forward moving direction is worth celebrating. We have story share so everybody can share their story. There's just different channels that you can create yourself so that it's kind of filed neatly to keep an order to it. And you have access to this beautiful community 24 seven. And then the fourth pillar is continuing bonds and connection with your child. So, you know, it rocks you through different
00:54:26
Speaker
different things that you can do with linking objects or writing a letter to your child in different prayers too. So lots of stuff is included. And once you purchase the course, you have it for life. You can download it all and never have to pay anything ever again. And you can have it for life because like I said, as your grief journey changes, you might have to revisit your support system because people might change, come in and out of your
Ongoing Support for Bereaved Parents
00:54:51
Speaker
life.
00:54:51
Speaker
your grief map is going to look a lot different as you find different outlets that help you process and your capacity is you can always work on your capacity so it might expand and grow and you might be able to add more things into your life.
00:55:06
Speaker
It's very holistic. That's the word that came to mind when you were talking about the mind, body, spirit component. I'm like, wow, this is so holistic. I just didn't want to interrupt her again because if not, then we would go somewhere else. But what you said too about the fact that they have this now readily available for them to use in the future too, because
00:55:28
Speaker
If they ever, they will, because we will all have different types of experiences with grief in our life. So therefore, they can use that material again to go and navigate another grief journey too. So not just the one that they might have
00:55:45
Speaker
first bought the course for. It's beautiful. It's all the gratitude that comes from such tragedy and pain and bitterness like you were, and you chose all these
00:56:03
Speaker
avenues, venues of being able to turn it into the better component and giving back and giving all these tools to other parents because you saw that need because you needed it yourself. It's just such a beautiful way of honoring her life and keeping her memory alive. Of course, she's always
00:56:26
Speaker
alive and I think we can relate in that aspect in just a different way. But thank you once again. And is there anything else you wanted to share? Oh, you want to say the name of the website, but I will put it on the notes, but do you want to say the name of the website for people to find you? Sure. It's grievebreathebelieve.com.
00:56:49
Speaker
And then specifically for the 413 method, it's 413movementmethod.com.
00:56:57
Speaker
And then they can find you on Instagram with a grieve, grieve, believe, an Instagram. And again, Lisa, thank you so much. And thank you for Ari for also allowing us to share her story, allowing you and to your son Chase, thank you for making my eyes tear up with the beautiful soul he is with the moments you shared about him and the maturity of his spirit.
00:57:27
Speaker
Thank you for sharing that. Of course, thank you. I look forward to hopefully connecting with those that are listening. So please reach out because it's an honor to do the work that I'm doing, but it's such an honor to hear your stories as well and to see how this community has come together and continues to grow and build. It's a beautiful thing. So I wish you all continued healing on your journey and know that I wish you weren't here,
00:57:56
Speaker
Now that you're a part of this bereaved, brave community, know that you're not alone and that you have the choice to be a active participant in your grief journey. So it was an honor to share this time with you so much, Kendra. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa.
00:58:20
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode and if you feel inspired in some way
00:58:43
Speaker
to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so. Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.