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Plan Your Rest and Recreation – a conversation with Dr Kyle Elliott
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Dr Kyle Elliott is the founder of Caffeinated Kyle a career coaching company focused on the sort of executives that work in places like Silicon Valley..
Kyle offers trauma-informed career coaching, interview coaching, and executive coaching for senior managers, executives, and C-suite leaders in technology companies.
You will find his clients working at Meta, Amazon, Google, and nearly every other tech giant you can imagine. Kyle’s approach helps his clients to find success at work and happiness in life.
In this episode of the Abeceder work life balance podcast Rest and Recreation Kyle explains to host Michael Millward how his own career trauma led to him reassessing life and work and creating a new way of living and working.
Michael and Kyle discuss what it means to be a workaholic and the impact that state of mind has on every aspect of life.
They also explore different ways to reassert your identity as an individual instead of a job title.
Kyle describes how he uses boundaries to manage the relationship between his work and his life.
Those boundaries include planning rest and recreation time and the activities that will fill that time, which for Kyle includes regular visits to Disneyland.
Rest and Recreation is made on Zencastr, because it is so easy to use. You can as well. Visit Zencastr and use offer code ABECEDER.
Travel – at trade prices to Disneyland or anywhere else in the world at trade prices as a member of The Ultimate Travel Club.
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A Personal Wellness Hub provides easy-to-understand results and guidance for effective lifestyle changes anytime.
Visit York Test and use this discount code REST25.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Rest and Recreation' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to Rest and Recreation, the work-life balance podcast from Abusida. I'm your host, Michael Middleward, the Managing Director of Abusida.
Guest Introduction: Dr. Kyle Elliott
00:00:19
Speaker
Today, Tech Career Coach Dr. Kyle Elliott will be explaining the role of rest and recreation in career management and the solution that worked for him.
Endorsements and Offers
00:00:30
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, rest and recreation is made on Zencastr, because Zencastr makes every stage of the podcast production process from recording to distribution so easy.
00:00:47
Speaker
I'd encourage every podcaster to try Zencastr. Use the link in the description to access discounted subscriptions. Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one.
00:01:02
Speaker
One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. As with every episode of Rest and Recreation, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
00:01:17
Speaker
Today's rest and recreation guest is Dr. Kyle Elliott. Kyle is a career coach and a mental health expert and involved in all sorts of types of activities around work and HR.
00:01:31
Speaker
Kyle is based in Santa Barbara, which is in California in the United States. I have never been to Santa Barbara. I have flown over it though. If I ever do get the chance to go to Santa Barbara, I will make my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club because as a member of the Ultimate Travel Club, I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays, and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
00:01:59
Speaker
You can also access those trade prices on travel by joining the Ultimate Travel Club. There is a link in the description which has a built-in discount.
Conversation Start with Dr. Kyle Elliott
00:02:09
Speaker
Now that I've paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of Rest and Recreation and say hello, Kyle.
00:02:17
Speaker
Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for this conversation. I am as well, because I know the sorts of things that we're going to be discussing. And even the mention of the name makes me excited for some reason. And I'm well beyond a child.
00:02:33
Speaker
Good. I am a Disney adult, so it's it's okay to be an adult and love Disney and be able to talk about it. So that's okay. Yes, you've let the cat out of the bag there. We are going to be talking about Disney but at some point for quite a long time, probably. But before we get to Disney, please could you tell us a little bit about your career and how you ended up as a career
Career Journey: Fiverr to Silicon Valley
00:02:53
Speaker
coach?
00:02:53
Speaker
Yes, I'm a career coach for executives in Silicon Valley, mostly. They're senior managers and executives who are trying to figure out what they want to do for a living. Maybe they want to stay in tech and get a promotion.
00:03:06
Speaker
Maybe they want to break into tech or leave tech. I help them figure out what they want to do. how to land it, how to succeed once they're in it. I never worked in tech though. My journey to this was quite different than a lot of coaches in this space. I literally started on Fiverr.
00:03:22
Speaker
It's an online marketplace where you pay five bucks for someone to do a service. And I was in college. I wanted to make money. And my service was people would pay me five bucks to review their resume, to write their about section on LinkedIn.
00:03:36
Speaker
And that side hustle over the course of years grew to a business. So I ended up leaving my full-time job over eight years ago now to run this business full time. And I love it.
00:03:48
Speaker
Those sorts of things do happen then.
Should You Have a Career End Goal?
00:03:50
Speaker
You can turn ah Fiverr type side gig essentially to help cover the bills, the essential bills, and actually end up with a business and a career that is forever or as long as you want to have it.
00:04:04
Speaker
Exactly. And I always tell clients, you don't need to always know the end goal. It's helpful to know where you're driving in the near term, but you don't always have to know the end destination. It's okay to see where it leads you. And that's what happened with me. Even the month before I left my full-time job to do coaching full-time, I renewed my contract with the university.
00:04:23
Speaker
And then I went back and said, oops, I need to un-renew this. I'm going to pursue this coaching thing full-time. And here we are. And I never imagined this would be my life. And I love the work I do with clients.
00:04:35
Speaker
That's key, isn't it? You have to love the work that you do. Oh, yes. We spend so much time at work. I spend less time now. I've learned to balance work and life more, but we spend a lot of time at work. And for me, I need to enjoy that.
00:04:48
Speaker
Preferably love it. And it makes it a lot easier to do the work. Yes. Before we get into that type of thing, though, I have worked in tech, several different organizations. And I know with my HR professionals hat on the experience I had of trying to motivate people and encourage them to do various different things when they were receiving large amounts of money and they'd accumulated large amounts of money.
00:05:15
Speaker
And then it's when you say ah you're working in Silicon Valley with people working out what it is that they want. And it's it's worth, I think, just discussing for a short period of time, how you work out what it is that you're going to do to fill your time when you're not filling that time with work that is going to cover the basic bills.
00:05:39
Speaker
It's challenging. Because you've accumulated wealth through stock options and salaries and and bonuses. Yeah, it's challenging, like you say. And people come to me with that question a lot. They say, oh, I have a career I like.
00:05:52
Speaker
I have relationship, perhaps. have children. have money. Now what? And that question can
Balancing Work and Personal Life
00:05:57
Speaker
be scary, that now what? Like, okay, I finished my workday. What do I do now? How do I spend my time? And it's one we wrestle with. And there's no one answer.
00:06:05
Speaker
But I encourage people to practice slowing down, especially for tech professionals or if you're a busy individual, is to say, let's slow down. And what comes up for you? What excites you? I encourage people to go back to their childhood and say, as a child, what did you enjoy before you had to make money?
00:06:25
Speaker
Before there was these pressures, what did you enjoy? And that can be a powerful way to think about how you want to spend your time. Were there things back then that really excited you that you could recultivate now?
00:06:36
Speaker
Yes. Even you just saying that there, I'm thinking about the things that I really enjoyed. And yeah, I'd probably be be in a field with a horse or and a swimming pool.
00:06:49
Speaker
See, and that's that's powerful for me. I was dancing in the backyard all the time. So I don't dance now, but i do Pilates, which is kind of like dancing. So it's finding those things we enjoyed. and saying how we might recultivate them as an adult.
00:07:03
Speaker
I find that so powerful. Yes. Yeah. I'm a Pilates fan as well. It's great. encourage everyone to give it a go if you haven't already, but it is fantastic.
00:07:14
Speaker
You mentioned people in the tech industries and of there other industries that pay a lot of money to people as well. But when I'm talking to people who are leaving school, leaving university and talking about careers with them, and they'll be saying that they want to earn lots and lots of money, saying in order to earn lots of money, you have to work very hard. you don't get money for nothing.
00:07:40
Speaker
And part of what happens, i think, is that you you start on a route towards lots of money. I want loads of money. And that can put you on a very slippy slope into a situation that, yeah, you can earn lots of money. But if you don't control your activities, you can end up just working, working, working and and without actually having any time to enjoy the money that you're earning.
00:08:08
Speaker
And you become almost, well, you do, you become a workaholic.
Identity Beyond Work
00:08:13
Speaker
Yeah. And you need boundaries and not just boundaries with other people, but boundaries with yourself to say, okay, what's the upper limit of how many hours I'm going to work or when I'm going to think about this?
00:08:23
Speaker
and really defining what work's going to look like and how you can't completely separate it from life. We can't just shut off our brains when we finish working. But how are you going to separate that so it doesn't consume you and it's not your whole identity?
00:08:37
Speaker
um Especially in tech, as we're seeing layoffs, as we're seeing people be impacted unexpectedly, you don't want to lose your job and then all of a sudden not have your identity, have nothing. So it's important to set those boundaries so your work doesn't just become your entire self.
00:08:54
Speaker
I think that makes me think, you know what you've just said makes me think about the definition of the term, the phrase workaholic, you know in lots of ways, know, people would think being a workaholic just means that you work lots and lots of hours. You are...
00:09:13
Speaker
You may not actually be working. You could just be in a work location for lots of hours because you don't want to be the like the first one to leave. But what you've just said, i think changes the way in which I think of workaholic or workaholism is that it's really that your work becomes your identity and you have nothing else. If you...
00:09:41
Speaker
have nothing outside of work that actually you can use to define yourself, then you're a workaholic.
00:09:52
Speaker
I think that's one way to look at it. I think it's a really powerful way. Each person's going to define it differently because each of us has our individual relationships with work that are shaped by our backgrounds, our experiences, our how we grew up.
00:10:06
Speaker
And I think that's one really powerful way to look at it. If you have nothing else besides work to look at it's really easy to get addicted or consumed by work and struggle to shut off at the end of the day or find anything besides work that brings you joy.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yes. How did you define it for yourself? For myself, it was really missing out on important things where I prioritized work over other things, where I would work instead of doing family functions or taking care of myself.
00:10:36
Speaker
And it was really an addiction. i would describe it as a work addiction where I felt like I needed this work in order to feel good, to feel successful.
00:10:48
Speaker
But then comes at a cost. Yes, I was working and it felt good. And it was never enough as well as it was kind of this empty promise or i'm like, oh, this is going to feel good, but it really didn't feel as good as I thought it would.
00:11:01
Speaker
um So it's this double-edged sword that isn't as helpful, isn't as powerful as I thought it was. Was that something that you can look at as a light bulb moment and say, at that point, I knew I was a workaholic?
00:11:18
Speaker
ye Or is it something that is more of an evolution over a period of time?
00:11:25
Speaker
There was an evolution, and I remember one moment
Therapy and Self-Realization
00:11:28
Speaker
where it was a tipping point. I started seeing a new therapist who I'm still seeing now, Stephanie. It was actually a few months after I left that university job to run my business full time.
00:11:41
Speaker
And I had went to her and said, I want to learn how to relax. And she said, this is interesting. It's not like people usually are that clear when they come to therapy, Kyle. But I said, I said I wanted to relax once I got to college and I would stop working. Once I got an internship, I would stop working. Oh, wait, once I get a full-time job, I'll stop working.
00:11:58
Speaker
Okay, once I run my business full-time, she said, okay, Kyle, you keep saying this eventually is when you're going to stop working so much, when you're going to relax, when you're going to find enjoyment outside of work. When is this eventually?
00:12:11
Speaker
And she stumped me. I was there and I was just pushing out the inevitable ah finding meaning, purpose, fulfillment outside of work. And that moment was the time when I really said, oh, I need to sit here and figure out who I am without my career, without my work identity or beyond my career and beyond my work identity.
00:12:32
Speaker
What is that process like, identifying who you are apart from your job title? It's challenging when your entire life or most of your life, I started working when I was 14 a local diner um and then started working full time at 16 at Denny's. So it's another diner here.
00:12:52
Speaker
so ever since then, I've been working. It's challenging when that's your identity to say, who am I beyond this? And to sit with that, it's really challenging. It's really vulnerable. it's been really powerful to tap into those things that I enjoyed as a kid, to try new hobbies and make space for things and say, well, let me experiment with this and have fun. I think of it as learning a new language or learning a new skill where at the beginning it was like, oh, my goodness, all of this feels new to me. And it's really strange to try these things.
00:13:23
Speaker
And it was fun. Yeah. Yes, it was difficult and it was fun to try these new things and try and tap into it and say, oh, this feels really different. Having an entire day where I don't work. That was foreign to me, something I had never done.
00:13:35
Speaker
and it was a lot of fun as well. It was an immersive experience. Yes. I think one of the things that we have in the Western societies, right across Europe, North America, everywhere in the West, is that when we meet someone new, one of the first questions that we ask them is what job they do.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yep. And I was at a function and but meeting a new person and they didn't ask me that question. And it rather stumped me because the question that they asked me was what hobbies have you got?
00:14:11
Speaker
oh Yeah. And actually asking me that question was, I didn't have a prepared answer for it, but it made me feel more exposed than being asked what might what I do for a living.
00:14:28
Speaker
because it was actually someone inquiring about me as an individual rather than the job that I do. It can be very vulnerable. Yes, but the conversation we had after I told them my hobbies was so much better and went on for longer than if I'd just been asked, what job do you do?
00:14:49
Speaker
who I love that. And now that is a question that I ask other people as well. I love that. absolutely love that because I think so much of us is defined by our careers and learning to strip away from that and say, who am I beyond this when I'm not just making money or being quote unquote successful or contributing or being productive?
00:15:08
Speaker
Who am I when I'm just being me and having fun and doing things for myself? Yes. Yeah. So we reached the point in your life where you've identified that you have an element of work, being a workaholic.
00:15:23
Speaker
I'm going to ask you you now, what is the hobby that you have that helps you balance work and life and ah live a more fulfilled life? Ever since Stephanie asked me when I was eventually, I've added a lot of hobbies. But one of the ones that's been most powerful is Disneyland.
00:15:40
Speaker
My partner and I are Magic Pass holders to Disneyland. We used to live in the Bay Area. And for those not familiar with California geography, it's a good six to eight hour drive.
00:15:51
Speaker
from the Bay Area down to Disneyland. And we would every month make the drive down to go to Disneyland to have that space, to be able to be immersed in the magic. And now we live in Santa Barbara, which is much closer, maybe ah two and a half hour drive without traffic, without LA traffic to go to Disneyland. So that is one of my favorite ways to disconnect in one of the hobbies that bring me the most joy.
00:16:17
Speaker
Yes. I have been to a Disneyland and I can totally agree with you that it it is an escapist experience. It appeals to think to the child in us all that, uh, when you are there, you can really leave the rest of the world behind.
00:16:37
Speaker
You can, we recently did a tour, And on the tour, we it was a train tour, and they talked about how the train at the Disneyland in Anaheim is specifically created for that, to kind of hold disneyland withinth sight with hold Disneyland inside of it, to be able to escape reality, to have that perfection within it, that magic within it. It's really this forced relaxation.
00:16:59
Speaker
that I love so much. As a recovering workaholic, I'm kind of someone who will go all in on something. So it's fun to be able to go all in on Disneyland and say, okay, today is just Disneyland. We're just going to be present.
00:17:10
Speaker
We're going to do the rides. We're going to watch the parade. And we're just going to focus here and not have to think about anything else for the next eight hours. And you just go along for the day? Just for the day, usually. Sometimes we'll spend the night, maybe once or twice a year, but it's close enough now where we'll just go for the day. And we don't feel like we're missing out.
00:17:28
Speaker
They're doing the rides and seeing all the, but of course, there's much more than just rides in a Disneyland, isn't there? Oh my goodness, yes. They are so good at entertaining and they're always adding new things. They have parades you can watch. They have Broadway level shows.
00:17:43
Speaker
They have characters you can see. I love people, so I love just people watching as well. And the people from around the world who come to Disneyland, and it's their first trip, their first time seeing the castle.
00:17:56
Speaker
It's truly immersive being there and being able to experience all of this. And there's just always something to do there. we never get bored. Which one of the characters is the one that you look forward to seeing the most? Oh my goodness, without a doubt, Stitch. I love Stitch. I collect Stitch characters. Literally yesterday, I was building a Lego set of Angel, Stitch's girlfriend.
00:18:18
Speaker
So I love Stitch. I think he's so fun. He's quirky. He's a little misunderstood. Beyond his tough exterior, there's all this softness inside. So I love Stitch.
00:18:30
Speaker
so much. I'm going to have to admit that it might be a generational thing. I do not know, but, um or maybe just that I haven't seen many of the recent Disney films, but I don't quite know which character you're talking about. He is blue. He's like a little blue koala bear.
00:18:50
Speaker
and he's from the movie Lilo and Stitch, an old movie, probably 15, 20 years ago. and then they just made a live action. Right. Cool. I will look that one up.
00:19:01
Speaker
I have to admit that when I went to Disneyland, it was a case of there is a character with whom I share the same initials. And I was desperate that I was not going to leave until I had had my photograph taken with Mr. Mickey Mouse.
00:19:19
Speaker
And its it's a strange situation to be in where for some reason as an adult you actually believe that this character who might be a student dressed up in a suit, but they're not. you know They're definitely not.
00:19:36
Speaker
This is the real Mickey Mouse. right It's a very, very real character. encounter, you don't get any, they don't talk to you, but it felt, I've still got the photograph, obviously.
00:19:50
Speaker
I was so very happy to have met Mickey Mouse and have my photograph taken with him. It's strange, but i even tw talking to you about it now, I have a huge smile on my face, just recounting that experience.
00:20:04
Speaker
it's It's truly magical. I'm wearing a polo I bought at Disney World when we went in Florida um last year, and it's magical. They're able to create these experiences that can't be replicated anywhere else.
00:20:17
Speaker
People are like, oh, what if you go to Universal or Six Flags, and it's just not the same. It's not that same level of magic that Disney has. And people say, oh, you went recently, but each time is different. Each experience is magical. And I really...
00:20:32
Speaker
I do feel like it's one of the happiest places on earth that lives up to its tagline. I'm interested because I've only been once. It was a part of a holiday and it was a great experience. I'm interested as well in how you worked out that Disneyland and being a magic pass holder would be part of your work-life balance.
Self-Care Through Scheduled Relaxation
00:20:53
Speaker
How did you work out that regular trips to this place, which is not a cheap place to go to, it ah can cost an amount of money and you've got to get there as well. How did you work out that that was going to be part of your work-life balance?
00:21:08
Speaker
You're diving deep into my memories here now. I now I'm recalling my partner and I went for my birthday. um It was shortly after I started seeing my therapist and I said, oh, this was so much fun. And I don't have time for this all the time. I can't be going to Disneyland all the time. It's a lot. And my therapist said, you need to be going to Disneyland more, Kyle.
00:21:27
Speaker
um You need more Disneyland. This is exactly what you need. I think she's very funny. So I think she said something like, you need a, I'm going to give you a prescription for Disneyland or something like that.
00:21:39
Speaker
My partner had an annual pass. I did not, where it allows you to go often and you just pay like once a year. So I signed up actually for annual pass. That was really something that almost forced me to engage in this rest, this recreation, this relaxation, getting that pass, having my therapist encourage me to do it.
00:22:01
Speaker
And then when I know that I'm going to be busier, when I have a lot of speaking engagements coming up or it's a busy season with clients, I then schedule more Disneyland. So we say, hey, we'd need this time to disconnect and unplug as well.
00:22:15
Speaker
And it just became this routine to say, hey, we have this thing to look forward to and disconnect from everything. And it's only that you're going for a day. Correct. Yeah, just a day usually. Sometimes we'll go two days if we spend the night, but usually it's just for the day.
00:22:28
Speaker
And it's enough to almost like recalibrate our bodies and our nervous systems and say, okay, we're just going to relax and unplug from everything. for the next six, eight, 10 hours. right So what came first? I want to go to Disneyland or I want to disconnect, recalibrate, reset all of the emotional dials. What what came first, do you think? Oh, goodness. Probably wanting to reset. And then as I was going through that journey, I went to Disneyland and said, hey, Disneyland, wow, this is a great place to rest and reset.
00:23:01
Speaker
And realizing, oh, this is something i want to add to my routine. And then also something I've done is say, how do I bring Disneyland back? How do I not just wait for Disneyland once a month, but bring Disneyland into my day-to-day as well and make sure that it's not just once a month that I'm relaxing, but I'm doing it every day as well.
00:23:20
Speaker
So have you got a Disney mug for your coffee? Oh, yes. Lots of Disney cups and stuffed animals and Legos. Lots of Disney stuff around our house. There's a limit.
00:23:32
Speaker
um We don't want our whole house Disney, but we have a lot of little Disney things around our house to bring that magic here. I know i have my cereal out of a Mickey Mouse bowl um every morning.
00:23:44
Speaker
just to It just makes me smile. Yeah. It does. And it's it's tempting because so many companies do collaborations. There was like a furniture brand that had like Disney furniture.
00:23:56
Speaker
and like, okay, we're only going to buy one piece. We don't want like our whole house, all of our furniture Disney. So it's trying to balance that as well, but bringing some of that magic and fun and really levity to our lives.
00:24:07
Speaker
You can catch a glimpse of something like a Disney cushion or Disney vase or or something out the corner of your eye. And all of a sudden your day is lifted.
00:24:18
Speaker
Exactly. And the work I'm doing with tech people, and it's serious, difficult, challenging work and it reminds me to bring fun and joy and humor to it. And that not all of it's that serious that we can have some fun okay as we're navigating these tough conversations. Yes. Sometimes you can have to have very tough conversations.
00:24:37
Speaker
What does the future look like then for your work life balance? What else are you doing to enhance your work life balance? I think going back to those boundaries, making sure that I'm not starting work before eight or nine, not working past four or five. I used to be someone who would bring my laptop to bed first thing in the morning. I'd have it going late into the night. And now it's like, no, let me work six or seven hours and be done.
00:25:01
Speaker
We also do no work Saturdays, my partner and I, where we don't do any work on Saturdays. We have something exciting we're looking forward to. When we were both in school, I was doing a doctorate and he was doing a master's. This is where it started, where we didn't do schoolwork. We didn't do work work.
00:25:15
Speaker
We would plan something. Sometimes it's Disneyland, but other times it can be something local and fun like mini golf. We did a hot air balloon ride. like What can we do every Saturday that we can look forward to and just disconnect and recalibrate? So the key thing is to almost schedule in the recalibration type activities. 100%. I'm a huge fan. We always make sure to have something we're looking forward to.
00:25:40
Speaker
I don't, it's sometimes a struggle to get through the week. I really need something to be looking forward to, to say, here's why we're doing this. And that's why i like the little Disney things around the house as well to remind me, hey, there's fun out there that we're striving for and working towards.
00:25:55
Speaker
It sounds like a lot of fun. I must admit, it sounds like a lot of fun. It is. I can see you flying around the world and going to all the divff different Disney lands and Disney world. That's the challenge right now, trying to decide which one we're going to next.
00:26:08
Speaker
I don't think I could list them, although so many, but I'll let the people at Ultimate Travel Club know that you're looking on making that trip and see what they can do for you. But for the moment, Kyle, I have really enjoyed this conversation. i leave it with a huge smile on my face. It's been great fun. Thank you very much. Of course. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. Thank you very much.
00:26:29
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abbasida. In this episode of Rest and Recreation, i have been having a conversation with the tech career coach, Dr. Kyle Elliott.
00:26:41
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at Abbasida. There is a link
Contact Information for Dr. Kyle Elliott
00:26:45
Speaker
in the description. But Kyle, if people want to connect with you directly, what's the best way to do that? Yes, my web website is caffeinatedkyle.com. And I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, Kyle Elliott with two L's and two T's.
00:26:57
Speaker
And so either on LinkedIn or a website called caffeinatedkyle.com, which is a great name for a website. I have to say it sounds as if it's full of energy. Thank you. Being healthy is a key element of enjoying life.
00:27:13
Speaker
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00:27:35
Speaker
The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a yeah UK AS accredited and CQC compliant lab.
00:27:50
Speaker
You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime by your secure personal wellness hub account. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
00:28:04
Speaker
I'm sure you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of Rest and Recreation as much as Kyle and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:16
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:28:28
Speaker
Until the next episode of Rest and Recreation, thank you for listening and goodbye. you