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How to Live Happily With Your Dog – a conversation with Drew Brashier
7 Plays11 hours ago
Dog owners need to learn how to speak dog if they want to live happily with their dog.
Drew Brashier is a professional dog trainer with Paws and Order in North Carolina USA.
In this episode of Rest and Recreation, the work life balance podcast from Abeceder Drew explains to host Michael Millward how any dog owner can have a successful relationship with their dog and live happily together.
Drew and Michael discuss the common challenges that dog owners face and some straight forward solutions.
These include
- Breed selection
- Establishing the right rules for a relationship with your dog
- Communicating with your dog
- Understanding what your dog is telling you
- The right sort of attention
- Learning how to be a good dog owner
You can find more information about both Drew and Michael at ABECEDER.co.uk
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Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster.
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Rest and Recreation, the work-life balance podcast from Abysida. I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida.
Role of Dogs in Well-being
00:00:19
Speaker
Today, Drew Brasher from PoorAndOrder.com is going to be explaining the important role that dogs can play in both our rest and recreation and our health and well-being and how to have a successful relationship with your dog.
Podcast and Travel Club Promotions
00:00:35
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, Rest and Recreation is made on Zencaster because Zencaster makes every stage of the podcast production process so easy.
00:00:47
Speaker
I encourage every podcaster to try Zencaster. Use the link in the description to access discounted subscriptions. Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one.
00:01:02
Speaker
One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. As with every episode of Rest and Recreation, we will not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Drew's Dog Training Services
00:01:16
Speaker
Today's Rest and Recreation guest is Drew Brasher from pawandorder.com.
00:01:23
Speaker
Paw & Order are professional dog trainers in Florida, Minnesota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Texas Drew provides a wide range of dog training services from conventional classes all the way through to one-to-one virtual training and also some very interesting activities you can get involved with with your dog as well Drew is based in South Carolina.
00:01:51
Speaker
That is an American state that I have never actually visited. But if I do get to go, i will make my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club because as a member of the Ultimate Travel Club, I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays, and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
00:02:11
Speaker
You can also access those trade prices on travel by joining the Ultimate Travel Club. There is a link in the description which has a built-in discount. Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of Rest and Recreation and start by saying, hello, Drew. Hey, Michael. How are you?
00:02:30
Speaker
I am extremely well. Thank
Drew's Journey into Dog Training
00:02:32
Speaker
you very much. and Could we start, please, by you telling us a little bit about you and how you got involved in dog training? Yeah, absolutely. I've always had dogs. my My entire life. Like, as a kid growing up, we had dogs, you know, various... Breeds and rescues and strays that would just kind of show up at the house that would end up as pets. And I've always loved dogs. So I've always, you know, just seeing that relationship is is so important.
00:02:56
Speaker
ah Several years back now, i um I had the opportunity to get involved with a dog grooming company. I was doing business end things with them, and um it was actually a franchise company, and i was doing franchise development, but I loved the fact that it was dogs, and I always loved dogs, and it was really what kind of triggered in the back of my mind, ah you can actually make a living working with dogs, and I kind of held on to that because I wanted to understand all of the business.
00:03:23
Speaker
I went through a grooming school through went through this company, so I learned how to groom dogs and I learned so many different things about them. And now I did not enjoy grooming. that was That was not for me and that was not ever going to be my path.
00:03:35
Speaker
But I wanted to know all the things. But still, I kept in the back of my mind that this could be a ah viable career path, somehow something with dogs. Fast forward a couple of years, we got a puppy.
00:03:48
Speaker
My kids at the time had never had an an actual puppy. We always had dogs, but the dogs that we had were older when my kids were born. So they had only ever had older dogs. And I thought it would be fun for us to just go and do a little group puppy class together as a family. I have two sons.
00:04:09
Speaker
ah My wife, the boys and I took the puppy, Max, and we did this little class together once a week. I fell in love with doing the training with them, the practice in between classes and the going and doing the work when we were there.
00:04:23
Speaker
i i absolutely loved it. After one of our classes one night, my my son, my youngest son, who has a way with dogs like no other human being I've ever seen, he said, Daddy, I don't think I want to go to college. I think I just want to train dogs.
00:04:37
Speaker
Granted, he's about five or six at the time. In the back of my mind, i thought, that's genius. And so I sat on it and I started doing research. How do you become a dog trainer? Because I was already in love with doing the work with my own dog.
Virtual Training and Human-Dog Dynamics
00:04:50
Speaker
And I started doing research and started kind of digging in and and looking at classes and how to how to learn. Through all that process, I found Paw & Order, met with the founders, and it was a perfect fit.
00:05:03
Speaker
So now you are the Paw & Order person in upstate South Carolina? Yes, I am the owner of Paw & Order upstate South Carolina. yeah But because of the virtual dog training that you can do, you someone in Italy or Dubai could also benefit from your training.
00:05:20
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. the yeah The biggest aspects of training a dog is actually training the human. And so the the dogs typically, in in a lot of cases, the dogs can actually be relatively easy, but it's usually us that have habits to break or thought processes that don't quite match up with how a dog thinks and how a dog reacts. And so a lot of it is is in teaching the dog owner how to work with their dog. So that's something we can do without actually always having to be hands-on with the dog.
00:05:55
Speaker
Is that one of those sorts of things where the dog wants to be a dog and the owner has higher expectations of the dog than the dog has of itself? Yeah, that's probably a good way to put that.
00:06:08
Speaker
You know, a dog doesn't want to be a human. A dog doesn't want to be a baby. A dog, like to to your point exactly, a dog wants to be a dog. Sometimes we, you know, we look at them differently than than what they are. and And a lot of that is just, you know, we're two completely different species who think and feel and act and communicate in very different ways.
00:06:30
Speaker
Bridging that gap is really the biggest part of what my job is. When someone is looking to get a dog or a puppy, they should, I suppose, be thinking, what sort of lifestyle have they got as the human being in this relationship?
Choosing the Right Dog for Your Lifestyle
00:06:46
Speaker
And how will the dog fit in with that lifestyle before they start thinking about the sort of dog that they're actually going to get? so I've been in London and seen people walking around central London with Newfoundland and St. Bernard's and thinking,
00:07:04
Speaker
yeah I'm sure they make it work, but it doesn't seem like the right type of environment for a big dog like that to be living in an apartment building. So you've really got to think about how the dog is going to adapt to your lifestyle. Yeah, 100%.
00:07:20
Speaker
That's one of the things that does cause a lot of stress in the household with dogs a lot of times is that people get the dog based on, oh, I really think this is a cool breed or he's very he's he's cute or you know this rescue just needed to be out of the shelter.
00:07:36
Speaker
And and their their hearts are always in the right place. but not forward thinking that that this may not be the best fit for my lifestyle, my family, or this dog.
00:07:50
Speaker
You know, not every family is for every dog and not every dog is for every family. And that, you know, that match is pretty important. Yes, some of the breeds, like the Dachshunds, they were bred for hunting to go underground and operate by themselves and make decisions for themselves. and You've got to provide that animal with the stimulation which is going to make use of the things that they have been bred into them for life.
00:08:17
Speaker
well, centuries, I suppose, when they were when they were developed. there' This dog is designed for herding other animals. This dog is designed for hunting. This dog is designed to operate as a pack animal. This dog is designed for being a solo dog. There's different characteristics across each breed.
00:08:35
Speaker
I grew up with Staffordshire Bull Terriers and and people would say to me, like, you know, you've got to be careful because you can end up looking like your dog. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But you've also got to think like you're going to start behaving like your dog as well. And your dog is going to start behaving like you.
00:08:50
Speaker
The part of this successful relationship, I suppose, is really the matching process before you actually take the dog home. Make sure you've got the right breed. Yes, absolutely. A lot of times you you do have to evaluate, what do I actually want out of this dog?
00:09:06
Speaker
What do I want the relationship to be like? Not just, do I want a dog? And then just go get the first one you see. And don't get me wrong, I am all about rescuing and and getting dogs out of shelters and and adoption, and and that ah that is something I am very passionate about.
00:09:23
Speaker
But I also think even through that process, you really need to take the time and and evaluate what your goals and your desires for the dog are. And you know get get as much of an opportunity as you can to evaluate that dog and make sure that they're going to mesh well into your your household and your family. yeah If you're someone who is extremely active and you're outdoors a lot or you go hiking or things like that, then maybe a Chihuahua is not the right fit for you. you know That dog is not that's not going to be the hiking dog.
Training and Understanding Dog Behavior
00:09:58
Speaker
and you know and And vice versa, if you're in a homebody and you know you want to stay around you know and not do a lot of activity things, then a German Shepherd is probably not the right fit for you. No, they will take over the couch if you let them.
00:10:12
Speaker
A German Shepherd is a big dog to be sharing a couch with. Yes, yes, definitely. But that also takes me on to this idea that the dog wants to be a dog and the dog wouldn't necessarily be on the couch, wouldn't be in charge of the household. And yet that's the impression that I get that ah ah lot of owners allow their dog to take charge, which is where you get to the point, I think, that the owners need as much training as the dog does, if not more.
00:10:43
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. To me, there's a fine line. And there are are various schools of thought on human-dog relationship and and training methods and techniques. And, and you know, there are a lot of a lot of different ideas of how things should be done and what's right and what's wrong. and It's not completely black and white one way or the other.
00:11:00
Speaker
There are a lot of right ways to to do things. I think there are a lot of... hybrid ways to do things, you know, because just like we are, every dog is very different.
00:11:11
Speaker
You know, even across the same breed, they're very, very different. They're individuals. Yeah, exactly. For certain dogs, you can't allow them to be on your bed or be on the couch or do those things because they they can tend to be a very dominant type of dog that will kind of take control. Other dogs,
00:11:33
Speaker
are not that dog and they are great to just curl up beside you on the couch and watch a movie. And, but you still want to have that control of this is still my couch. And when I need you to get off of it, then you need to be able to do that. And then, you know, go over here and lay on your bed or hang out, hang out by my feet.
00:11:51
Speaker
You know, I think still, you know, there's a way to, there's a way to have both with, with certain dogs. And some of that comes with knowing your dog. I personally, I've got three different dogs. Um, And um they are. they're They're each very different.
00:12:05
Speaker
And I do different things with each dog based on their abilities and both what they enjoy and, you know, what their capabilities are.
00:12:15
Speaker
But I think that oftentimes we try to put every dog into one box and and they're very much individual, just like we are. Yes. So it's like you have a great dog and then you think, oh, that was a great dog. I'll go for another dog of the same breed.
00:12:30
Speaker
And it's got a completely different personality. Yes. And I hear that all the time. Yeah. In fact, just yesterday meeting with a new client, every other dog that I've had was very different from this. I didn't have these struggles with that dog. And I and i understand that. ah But that's not this is not that dog.
00:12:46
Speaker
you know I even can relate it to like my my own children. ah my My boys are... night and day. They are very, very different. They look different. They act different, but they are, they are both mine. They both were raised in the same household. They're only three years apart, but they're very, very different.
00:13:06
Speaker
And so I know that if you even look in your own household and most of us across our children, we can see those big differences and we know they came from exactly the same, you know, why do we expect anything any different with our dogs? Yeah.
00:13:20
Speaker
This is true. With a human child, you want them to develop as individuals. Sure, yes. And it's all credit to you that you can say that your sons are completely different personalities, but they are still brothers.
00:13:32
Speaker
With dogs, well, when I see people out with their dogs, it's very often... You see too many owners who don't appear to have any control over their dog at all. The lead is taught.
00:13:45
Speaker
They're being pulled along by their dog. The dog doesn't know what to do and it's going to cross the road. They can't have an interaction with another dog without causing bother and yeah all this sort of stuff. And then when you've got a well-behaved dog and someone with a badly behaved dog comes along and the reaction of the owner to their dog behaving badly is if my dog behaves badly she gets shouted at and she knows she's going to get shouted at and she knows instantly that she's doing something wrong and she's gotten to stop and she does and then two seconds later we're like wagging tails smiling and and having fun again but and lots of dog owners don't seem to have that sort of relationship or control
00:14:30
Speaker
over their dog how how would do you go from and a dog that you've allowed to rule the roost to a dog where you've got a positive relationship with a well-trained dog that's a great question so and and honestly uh you know i i see that type of thing pretty much every day obviously given what i do I see it all the time, and I'm not a dog trainer. Right, yeah. And yet I live in a country where all sorts of people have all sorts of different dogs.
00:14:56
Speaker
It is ah common problem. And for non-dog owners and people who own dogs that are well-behaved, the badly behaved dog and the owner of a badly behaved dog are, in some cases, a real nuisance. Sure, absolutely.
00:15:12
Speaker
You know, it's it really is and this is going to oversimplify it quite a bit, but it really is a lack of effective communication. In my opinion, the vast majority of training your dog is effective communication.
00:15:30
Speaker
and being able to to communicate to the dog what it is that these actual that your expectations are. And at the same time, you know communication goes both ways, right? So it's not communication if if it's only going in one direction.
00:15:43
Speaker
So also learning your dog and how they're communicating with you and what they're communicating with you, learning to read that body language of when they're uncomfortable, when something is about to happen, what they like, what they don't like.
00:15:54
Speaker
And being able to communicate with them what your expectations are in a way that they understand. You know, I think it's not always a matter of individuals not having expectations for their dog or just wanting to allow their dog to be problematic like that or drag them around on the leash.
00:16:13
Speaker
I think the the issue is that we as humans try to communicate with a dog the way that we would communicate with one another. And a dog doesn't get the message that we're sending. Ah, we're speaking human and they're speaking dog. Exactly. We have the ability to learn a bit of dog.
00:16:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. that's That's one of my cheesy lines that I give to a lot of people when I work with them. I've got to help you learn to speak dog. Right. And that's and that's a big part of it. And and dogs actually want...
00:16:39
Speaker
those boundaries. They want those guidelines. They want to know what it is that we want them to do. Most dogs are not problematic just because they're bad dogs and they want to do the wrong thing.
00:16:52
Speaker
They just haven't learned and don't understand what the right thing is.
Trust and Communication with Dogs
00:16:56
Speaker
Unless you have someone like me or do what I do you don't know how to how to effectively communicate those things. And there are a lot of different ways to communicate those things. And we just have to dial down to What is it and and how do we communicate with your dog what it is that you want?
00:17:13
Speaker
By setting boundaries for the dog and and holding them accountable to those boundaries, we're able to broaden their world so much more understanding. giving them boundaries because now they know how to walk nicely on a leash. We can go out in public and they're not going crazy when they see another dog or another person and they're not jumping on people or losing their minds, which stops us from wanting to take them out. So now they only ever stay at our house.
00:17:38
Speaker
Well, now when they're well behaved, well, now we can go to the park. Now we can go hiking. Now we can go to the bar. We can do all of these things with our dogs and completely give them a whole new world and actually enjoy the relationship that we have with them.
00:17:52
Speaker
Because now we've taught them some things and set some boundaries that allow us to do these things productively where it's no longer frustrating for either of us. When you're out and you see another well-behaved dog, and sometimes you'll be out and you'll see someone who's got their dog off its lead, off its leash, and you think, oh, what's going to happen now?
00:18:12
Speaker
But the owner so says good morning, good afternoon, and carries on walking. And their dog just carries on walking, doesn't interact with you at all, because they're more interested in their owner they are in than in you.
00:18:28
Speaker
Yes. When I've seen that, I think that's absolutely fantastic to see. It's a bit like when you see someone one who's got a dog and the dog is walking alongside them and looking at the owner rather than looking where they're going. And it's as if the dog has total confidence in their owner that they're going to be wherever they go yes it's going to be safe yeah absolutely um you know you and that's that again and that is a that is a byproduct of the relationship that this person has built with their dog whether it be through just the time together or training or you know things that they've put in to show that dog that they can be trusted and build that bond and
00:19:10
Speaker
You know, and and the relationship is such a critical part of the dog training process and and what the life with the dog is is like. The dog, to your point, being able to look back at their person and say, I know you've got me. I know I'm safe. Are you good?
00:19:27
Speaker
we're You know, we're checking in with each other. We are our priority. I know that any situation I go into, you've got me covered and I don't have to worry about these things. And I don't even mind necessarily that that if we're out, the dog's staring at me the whole time.
00:19:42
Speaker
But i want you to I want you to walk with me. You're not going to drag me. We want to be together. But I want you to check in with me every you know every few steps, every few feet. Just take a glance back. Make sure I'm good. Even if you get out ahead of me a little bit, if we're in a more open area where you can have a little bit of range, I want you to check back. I want you to kind of be be conscious that of what I'm doing and where I am.
00:20:03
Speaker
because you're here with me. I'm the center of this world right now, but you can still enjoy it just as much as I can. But you've formed that almost pack relationship with the dog. Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:15
Speaker
Absolutely. So it's not going to be distracted by anything else that is happening. It might notice it, but it's not going to be distracted. And there's a difference between noticing something and being distracted by something. Yes, absolutely.
00:20:28
Speaker
Absolutely. You mentioned there, so like the time that you spend with your dog. It is one of those sort of strange sort of things that you have a dog and whilst it's cute and cuddly as a puppy, it's going to get lots of attention.
00:20:42
Speaker
And then as it gets older, sometimes the dog can get less attention. It makes me wonder, like as a dog trainer, do dog owners give their dogs enough time to actually build that relationship and maintain that relationship?
00:20:56
Speaker
And if they don't build that relationship, is the lack of time part the reason why you see so many misbehaving dogs? Yeah, i would I would venture to say that there there is a pretty pretty significant correlation to to the lack of time and the the behaviors. And a lot of it is, I think, a combination of The lack of guidance and lack of structure that the dog will get when when they're not given a lot of time. But I also think it's it's a matter of lack of engagement and enrichment. The dogs get bored, you know, and that's when they tend to get into things. That's when they tend to go explore when they're not they're not fulfilled yeah otherwise.
00:21:36
Speaker
The devil makes work for idle paws. Yes, exactly. Exactly. um yeah And I think i think really that's that's a big part of it. Like you said, a lot of people will get puppies and they'll give a lot of time and a lot of focus on them when they're small and they're cute and they're cuddly.
00:21:54
Speaker
But we also tend to give the wrong types of attention. or attention at the wrong times. So we end up encouraging poor behaviors, not even realizing that we're doing it.
00:22:08
Speaker
And so we are we're kind of creating our own monster. Well, I suppose there's sort like an expectation with some owners that and this is my third child, this one but this one has four legs, this one is a dog, but it's oh yes they get treated like that.
Impact of COVID-19 on Dogs
00:22:23
Speaker
One of things I suppose that we have to remember is that a child becomes a teenager, becomes ah a young adult. They grow up. yes Whereas a dog is never going to reach those sorts of stages. There is a time when a dog's development stops.
00:22:37
Speaker
You've then got the animal that you're way of treating them created and that could cause problems for you and for other people so you've really got to understand the way in which dogs develop the way in which dogs communicate sure with you and with other people and that's even before you start thinking about sit stay stand and lie down isn't it Oh, yeah. So many things are are in the the foundations and the structure and the the kind of the the day-to-day living types of things.
00:23:09
Speaker
um And and you know I think that every dog can learn at any age. you you know we We have to have reasonable expectations of what their capabilities are ah based on you know how how old they are and you know how how long it may take. Or, you know, if ah if it's an older dog, they've had years of practicing these poor behaviors. So we've got a lot of bad habits to break. So that can take a little longer.
00:23:32
Speaker
But I do think every dog across the board can learn. um It's just a matter of of how are we going to teach them. um And they will. They'll go through developmental stages of infant, of the toddler, of the teenager. You know, they they hit that adolescent stage.
00:23:48
Speaker
And no matter, some for some dogs, no matter how much time and work you've put in ahead of time, you know, sometimes they're going to hit that adolescent stage where they're going to push boundaries and they're going to... to try and see what their limitations are and you know just like it with a with a teenager those are the times you have to kind of sometimes double down on nope these are still the rules and we've got to make sure that we're following those things yeah i'm remembering some of the dogs that uh i've had it's been yeah you're in your teenage stage now aren't you
00:24:18
Speaker
Yeah. but Yeah. and And some of the things that, that happened, you know, I work with a lot of people who have dogs with severe anxiety issues or they're, they're reactive to other dogs.
00:24:29
Speaker
You know, we've seen a lot of dogs post COVID um and especially, you know, those dogs that are now, you know, four and five years old, but you know, just because of the, the, the lockdowns and the lack of socialization.
00:24:42
Speaker
Now these dogs are are very nervous and anxious anytime they're outside of their home or even something's in their home. A lot of dogs in rescues and and shelters that are very kind of shut down and nervous and anxious.
00:24:54
Speaker
And I think as compassionate human beings, we see these dogs that are that nervous and scared. and and and it And it's heartbreaking in a lot of ways. so And we tend to...
00:25:05
Speaker
feel sorry for them. So we baby them and we don't kind of help them push out of their those discomfort areas. And sometimes by feeling that way toward them and dealing with them as as if they were broken, we are keeping them in that box. I had a client recently that that had a had an extremely, extremely Nervous and scared, timid dog, very nervous of everything.
00:25:31
Speaker
couple years old, she had been a rescue, just just almost completely shut down.
Behavior Improvement Success Story
00:25:36
Speaker
First meeting, the first lesson that that we had, I said, the first thing that you've got to do is stop feeling sorry for her.
00:25:45
Speaker
You've got to put that out of your mind. She's not holding on to that emotionally like what you are. Her responses are not emotional. Her responses are are kind of conditioned just based on the environment. She's in a new environment.
00:25:59
Speaker
That place is gone. She's in a safe, happy, productive home. She doesn't understand that yet, but she feels you feeling sorry for her. So she's feeding off of that. You've got to stop feeling that way and be confident, be calm, be happy, show her what you want, help her.
00:26:16
Speaker
This was several months ago, that first meeting. And then we had a lesson, our final lesson last week. And she the, the, the ladies in tears, she said, that this is a completely new dog. And I could see it. Like it was, it was just a completely, completely different dog.
00:26:35
Speaker
Yeah. She said the best thing out of everything that we that we worked on, the best thing that you told me, the best thing that made all the difference was when you told me to stop feeling sorry for her. Yes.
00:26:46
Speaker
And once that happened, everything changed. um Now, it's not easy. You know, there's still work and time and effort that has to be put in. Right. but sometimes it's just those simple little things that we don't realize of what we are contributing to in the behaviors of our dogs. Yeah.
Episode Conclusion and Future Engagement
00:27:03
Speaker
There's an awful lot to be learned. It's often been said, I know that, uh, before you can train the dog, you've got to train the owner first. Sure. Yeah. It's a really interesting, thank you very much, Drew. really do appreciate your time today. Yeah, of course. And I, I hope it's not the last time that we get to talk to one another. So, uh, Oh, I hope not. Look forward to another time. but Really interesting. week I could go on about this stuff for days. I know you could.
00:27:28
Speaker
And ah that's one of the things that makes it so interesting. But for today, at least, thank you very much. Really appreciate your time. Yes, you too. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abusida.
00:27:40
Speaker
In this episode of Rest and Recreation, I have been having a conversation with Drew Brasher from pawandorder.com. dot com You can find out more about both of us at abecida.co.uk.
00:27:54
Speaker
There is a link in the description. Whilst caring for your dog, it is also important to remember to look after your own health. That is why we recommend the health tests available from York Test and especially the annual health test.
00:28:08
Speaker
The annual health test from York Test provides an assessment of 39 different health markers including cholesterol, diabetes, and different vitamin levels and also organ functions.
00:28:21
Speaker
The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UK AS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory.
00:28:36
Speaker
You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime by your secure personal wellness hub account. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
00:28:49
Speaker
I am sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of Rest and Recreation as much as Drew and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:29:02
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:29:15
Speaker
Until the next episode of Rest and Recreation, thank you for listening and goodbye.