Transcript
Speaker: Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to Rest and Recreation, the work-life balance podcast from Abbasida. I'm your host, Michael Millward.
Speaker: Today, Chabon, Mayor, will be explaining burnout and life after burnout. As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, rest and recreation is made on Zencastr, an all-in-one podcasting platform that is just so easy to use.
Speaker: So if you'd like to try podcasting using Zencastr, use the link in the description. There is a built-in discount. Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one.
Speaker: One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. As with every episode of Rest and Recreation, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Speaker: Today's Rest and Recreation guest is Chabon Mer. After chasing the American dream by building a career in the tech industry, Chabon was burned out and disillusioned.
Speaker: But Chabon's story isn't about defeat, it's about a transformation sparked by a growth mindset. Today, in 2025, he has not only conquered burnout, but he's also run marathons, climbed Kilimanjaro and built a career he's passionate about.
Speaker: Shabon is based in Phoenix, Arizona. I've never been, but if I do go to Phoenix or anywhere else, I will always make my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club.
Speaker: because as a member of the Ultimate Travel Club, I get trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays and all sorts of other travel related purchases. You can as well use the link in the description to access those trade prices on all sorts of travel.
Speaker: Now that I have paid the bill, it is time to make an episode of Rest and Recreation. Hello, Siobhan. Hello, Michael. Good to be here. It's good to have you here. I've never been to Arizona, but I know that's not where you originally from, is it? It is not. I'm actually originally from Romania.
Speaker: Could we start with a bit of a history of how you ended up traveling from Romania to North America and well how you got to the situation where you are in today? It's not overly complicated why I came to the United States. and It's just a matter of looking for a better life. The American dream. Yeah, live the American dream, exactly. To be fair, I did for more than 10 years pursue that dream to...
Speaker: have the red brick house to have the corporate job and go on vacations twice a year. i made it happen, you know, coming to America with only $200 in my pocket at first, but then slowly and tirelessly building that dream was something that I thought I had to, and I wanted to only to find myself at the end of that, uh,
Speaker: that time a little bit disillusioned, like the you said in the beginning, a little bit burned out, not really knowing that pushing that boulder up the mountain costs us something. And the the cost for me was burnout.
Speaker: Burnout is a phrase that seems becoming increasingly popular, but what does it actually mean? It's a good question because oftentimes we have a hard day.
Speaker: We tend to say like, oh, I'm i'm so burned out. And that's not necessarily what burnout is. Burnout is state of feeling emotionally, physically, as well as mentally.
Speaker: completely drained. And then the important part is due to exposure to stress over an extended period of time. And that extended period of time is very crucial in this discussion.
Speaker: Because if you have a tough conversation at work, or if you're running up a project that it's requiring a lot of your energy and your time, that doesn't necessarily constitute being burned out.
Speaker: It is when that project never ends, when you're constantly on high alert, you never get a chance to rest and recover, when that exposure to continuous stress leads to that chronic stress, which leads to burnout.
Speaker: So burnout is not just feeling exhausted at the end of the day. Burnout is something which builds over time. Very often I should think people don't realize that it is happening to them. Yeah, it is true. Yeah. 65% of professionals reported in 2024 that they experience is experience moderate to severe levels of burnout. And it is a quiet symptom because somehow we have this this feeling that we're failing, that we are we should power through, that we should not feel like this, which makes us isolate, makes us not share the struggle. It can lead to compound problems as we're not dealing with the issue of burnout.
Speaker: There are so many questions that I have about burnout that come out of, you've said there, and I suppose the easiest way to deal with all of my questions is to ask, please, could you share more about your experience of burnout?
Speaker: Can you look back and see a ah day when everything sort of stopped? yeah I wish I could say that it was a clear moment, defining defining moment in my life, but it's,
Speaker: It's actually this and this is the issue with burnout is because we don't really detect it. We just go through accepting more and more of the challenges and we are ignoring the signs is that leads us to get to that point of mental, physical and emotional exhaustion.
Speaker: But for me, and can tell you it is due to that American dream, which don't get me wrong. I feel blessed that I was able to push that boulder up the hill. for so long to get to the point where I did accomplish all those things, but I didn't realize it, that it cost so much.
Speaker: You can think of it as that experiment with the frog in the in the boiling water. but As the water gets hotter and hotter, you don't even realize it. So it it may be to the point where you're saying ah yes to commitments that you didn't want to say. You're dragged into all these different meetings, responsibilities at home or extracurricular activities that you have outside of home.
Speaker: that you're constantly piling onto your plate to the point where it's very difficult to carry that plate. that That's the type of issue that we're dealing with because we don't don't necessarily know when that water is boiling.
Speaker: For me, going back to your question, was a time where I was performing at my highest level, I've achieved a lot in my career. Outside, I was doing many things, volunteering and other responsibilities.
Speaker: And it was when i got to the top, where I checked all those boxes, I had a chance to look and reflect at my own being. And that's when I realized that even though i thought that's what's gonna make me happy and it's gonna make it's goingnna make me feel like I've achieved and I'm successful, it is in that moment that I had a chance to reflect back and realize that I'm tired.
Speaker: I'm not just like I'm gonna take ah ah weekend off and it's going to resolve it. as Think of it as you're driving to work and you're exhausted and then you get to the to your job and you're just standing in your car And you don't want to go in.
Speaker: You just don't want to deal with the people, don't want to deal with the responsibilities, don't want to anything. You just want to isolate and crawl are and under a blanket and not do anything.
Speaker: I didn't have a specific moment like that, but that's how burnout can manifest to in the world. Many people. Can you look back and see mental or physical health symptoms as part of that process developing over time? Yeah. If if not addressed, I mean, it can it can lead to serious ah health issue, physical and mental. The obvious one is, of course, feeling tired and even a seven-day vacation, not really doing it because the your mind is still constantly...
Speaker: thinking and overthinking about all the responsibilities that you that you have waiting for you at home. And that tiredness shows in your body, can be like headaches, random pains that you might be aching, right? Those are signals that your body inadvertently are telling you that there's something wrong with you.
Speaker: Mentally, of course, they can be one of the biggest, big, big symptoms of burnout is cynicism. So mentally, you may be driving to work and realize that you're constantly yelling at the people on the road or ah you're snapping at your children or in meeting in the office, someone says something and you snap back and that's a stupid idea or something like that, where you can tell that you're having a ah short fuse.
Speaker: Listening to it, it sounded as if the physical aspects are the ones where you might be 30, but you feel 60. Very well said. Yeah. Your body just isn't able to do what you really need it to do.
Speaker: And the mental thing is mood. You're in a constant bad mood with everyone else and with yourself. that That's right. The three major signs of burnout is that physical and mental exhaustion. It is cynicism and that mood that we're talking about. And the other one, the third one is a feeling of lack of control.
Speaker: So you're basically just running on autopilot and you feel like because of all the different responsibilities that you have and all the tasks that are piling onto that plate, you're just ah an autopilot. That sense of lack of control is very defeating.
Speaker: yeah on all fronts, mental and emotional. Thinking about people that I have worked with in the past and thinking about how they behaved. You've described people that I have worked with.
Speaker: That's for definite. Knowing what that experience was like working with them. Are you working now with people who have reached burnout, who can talk about how colleagues and family, friends raised issues and concerns with them?
Speaker: Or is it mainly people themselves come to you saying, I have reached this point. I do a multitude. my My primary purpose right now is going into corporations and talking to the older me, the one that didn't know that it was struggling with these issues, making sure that I raise the awareness around it, but also provide actionable tools that they can flip those struggles around to the point where they can perform at their company. They they still can go on with their lives, but instead of feeling overwhelmed and exhausted,
Speaker: They actually have a lot more energy, a lot more joy, a sense of control to the point where they no longer feel burned out, but they're actually burning bright.
Speaker: Great. When it happened to you, did you give up the American dream career before you recognized that you were having in this burnout situation or was giving up the career part of the solution for you to resolve the burnout issues? I did not give up the career to tackle my burnout because I do believe that we should not go from one extreme to the other. so the the same way we we go into burnout is the same way we We get out of it so progressively because it's a process.
Speaker: Usually takes people years to get to that state where they're mentally and physically exhausted. So in order for us to revert back to a state where we are energized and enjoy life.
Speaker: We have to take small steps so that the brain and our life doesn't change so dramatically that we can make it even worse. The process that I've gone through is just learn many of the things that i' that I'm sharing with the organization that I go to, with the people that I work with, to just give them some tools as they advance and they move from that burnout to the burning point portion of their lives. says They have an arsenal of tools that they can slowly just pick from and implement in their life so that they do get away from that overwhelm and that exhaustion.
Speaker: I can imagine in one of these events in an organization, people being told you're going to go to this talk about burnout. And there being all sorts of lights coming on in people's heads about their colleagues, about themselves, about interactions that they've had with people around their work environment. Like I said, just listening to you describe burnout and the symptoms made me remember people that I have worked with.
Speaker: And they weren't pleasant people to work with. I think there are two parts to this in many ways. There's the situation where an individual can say, I'm on the road to burnout. That's part of my journey. I need to do something now to stop.
Speaker: And then there are those people who are working with someone who's denying that they're on that road, but actually is quite visibly on that road. Yeah. How do you sort of like balance the two or let's say someone comes to you afterwards and says, you've been talking about me.
Speaker: What would be the advice that you give them? What sort of tools are the first sort of things that you that you advise them to use? Well, the main thing that I i tell people is to not be ashamed to raise their hands and ah admit that they're struggling because with burnout there comes a lot of shame and that people may not be able to carry what their responsibilities are so they they're very much pulling back and isolating thinking that this is a a me problem not a we problem and just being vulnerable enough to raise the hand and say, hey, I'm struggling is something that it's very vulnerable, but it's also very courageous.
Speaker: That would be the the first step into tackling the the symptoms and then leaning on the support. Usually, Michael, I don't know how you work, but when you see a friend struggling, you're not, if it's a friend, you're not looking to kick him down, you're looking to support them. So when someone raises their hands and say, I'm struggling, the people around them tend to help.
Speaker: So just having that courage to say, I'm struggling is very important. And then, of course, having a team around them to be able to assist and instead of shame.
Speaker: That is is one of the the first steps. So it's about building the level of understanding about this with everyone. Before we actually, as an organization, before we start getting people to look at themselves, let's look at how we would react as a group, as an individual, to someone actually saying, this person that you've been hearing about is me and I need help.
Speaker: Yeah. And be becoming more aware of these symptoms when you're in a meeting and you notice someone being snappy instead of being judgmental and thinking that they're rude, there's always that thought, are they going through something that makes them act like that?
Speaker: ah Some people, like I said, they they don't even know that they're burned out. So um having those signals of, you know, they were reliable. ah They always used to come on time and now they're tardy.
Speaker: that's ah That's a flag, like something's different. ah They used to contribute in in the meetings. They used to speak up and have a voice where now they're pulled they're pulled back and isolated and not not contributing every meeting.
Speaker: That's another sign. And then it's just recognizing that some people don't don't even know that they they're going through and then asking them, are you okay? That's a really important question.
Speaker: Unfortunately, not everyone knows how to answer that question. Yeah. Take some courage to really say to someone who you think is struggling in some way or another, having a bad day. Are you okay?
Speaker: It's never an easy question to ask someone. It's an even more difficult question to actually answer. And like you say, it takes courage to admit to someone else that you need help, and perhaps even more courage to admit to yourself that you need help as well. Yeah, which is which is a great point, because this is one of the the first things that i that I share with people.
Speaker: When you're able to admit to yourself that you're struggling, the the first thing that you need to recognize, as you would tell a good friend, is take care of yourself and the way you take care of yourself is taking care of your health.
Speaker: I still remember to this day of a friend at work that seemed to have so much energy. he was way older than me, yet regardless of what time, morning, afternoon, late at night, he still had so much and more energy than the youngster that I used to be.
Speaker: and at one point i asked him like, hey, what's your secret? And he told me that, hey, you cannot be at your best self if you're not in your best health. Oh, that's a good phrase. yeah I like that. and the truth The truth is that we we sacrifice a lot.
Speaker: We don't sleep enough because we're thinking, ah I sleep less, I'm going to get more done. Or I don't exercise because I don't have time to get more things done. Or I'm going to go to that fast food just because I don't have time because I have so many responsibilities where in reality,
Speaker: Taking care of yourself means taking care of your health and being intentional, especially when you're under a tremendous amount of pressure and stress to do take care of yourself.
Speaker: Yes, I suppose there's a stage of our lives where we just believe that we're indestructible and bad health is something that happens to other people. That in itself raises a level of pressure and stress which is going to contribute to the other stresses that you've also got from work, from home.
Speaker: Anything that can go wrong, sometimes it just feels as if it is, if it can go wrong, it will go wrong. You are the person responsible for putting it all right. Whether you were responsible for getting it wrong or not doesn't really matter.
Speaker: You're the person who's going to put it right because that's what people expect of you. Yes. What we're doing, I suppose, is describing that sort of area of work and life where it's not so much the the consequences that need to be dealt with, it's the causes and the part of the causes.
Speaker: of the sort of issues are like you said earlier people not saying no when they should be saying no you know i've already got a full day's work to do i can't take on anything else if i take on that particular task which of the other tasks that you've given me do you want me to put to the bottom of the list correct i suppose be your own best ambassador your own best advocate Advocate for yourself so that you don't get into these sorts of situations as well.
Speaker: But I really like what you were saying about the understanding, building the level of understanding within an organization, within a team, so that you can recognize when someone is approaching that level of burnout.
Speaker: It's almost like deciding how you as a team will respond when one of your team members says, I need help. You don't leave it to other people. You almost put it into your burnout policy of when someone says, i need help, that person knows the response that they are likely to get because it's all been agreed to discussed and agreed beforehand.
Speaker: when no one was suffering with burnout. Part of our team charter is if someone has a problem and they bring it to the team, this is how we will respond. Yes, that's correct. yeah Yeah. And i I think you touched on something very important, which is the the ability to say no.
Speaker: It's okay for someone to ask you to do something as well as it ah it is okay for you to be able to say no. yes And when it comes to teams, when you have that understanding that this person is struggling and need we need to support them, the then accepting the fact that sometimes even if they're if you're asking them to do something that might be helpful for the team, but they're struggling, being okay with that person to say no And then allowing that person to be able to set those boundaries and saying, no, I'm struggling.
Speaker: and That also plays a big role into making the team feel like they're working together and making that person feel feel seen and helped.
Speaker: Yes. I'm intrigued now. You realized that you were in this burnout situation You've changed your career and have almost turned your problem into your passion and helping other people to avoid it. And if they slip into it, then helping them to get out of it.
Speaker: But how did you get out of it? Did the marathons and the Kilimanjaro trip come before the burnout or after the burnout or? Have you changed your version of the American dream? Yes. And yes, the, the marathons were a confirmation to the fact that I thought I was stuck in a place and there was no way out.
Speaker: And I thought to myself that there's this is the way, that stress is the payment for success, that burnout is just the price that I have to pay for what what I've achieved.
Speaker: Then there was a ah mindset shift that I've read books and got some help from ah other people and they they told me that life can be lived differently.
Speaker: Like the burnout is not a life sentence. To prove to myself that I can do it differently was, of course, like we we already talked about, is taking care of my health. And I've pushed the boundaries of my health to where I wasn't able to even run five miles. To me, it's it's just an absolute impossibility.
Speaker: I even told people I had excuses, like I have a deviated septum and I have unique the weak knees. That was the excuses that I used that i was using. But then the when I understood that I'm in charge of my life and my destiny, I wanted to test that. And its it started with running a marathon.
Speaker: and then two and three, and then hiking Kilimanjaro. But in the process, I also challenged myself in other ways of how can I get from under this burden and really set those right boundaries and do things that light me up, that give me the passion to be good at my job, be productive and not feel the burn. I've dialed down the boiling water to where I enjoy now being under the pressure, but not letting it crush me.
Speaker: Yes, you're more in control of the pressure and it sounds as if you're working smarter rather than harder. Absolutely. yeah like a good cliche, right? But it's true, isn't it? What you're doing is still working as hard as you ever were.
Speaker: But you're doing it in a smarter way so that you, when you said earlier on that, you know people don't exercise because they say, oh, haven't got time for it. I haven't got time to cook a proper meal. I'll have a takeaway. I'll have a ready meal.
Speaker: All these sorts of things. It's all excuses rather than if you plan your time, if you work hard on your health. you are like your colleague able to do more at work because you've set the foundations in place to make sure that you are healthy first and then you can do all the other things that you want to do but health comes first yeah it's actually going back to the definition of burnout which is stress over an extended period of time. So yeah working on anything that it's continuous and adds that chronic aspect of it is the issue.
Speaker: So you are running up against a ah ah deadline and you have to work hard, but then take a break, really go out or take take a ah ah good rest or go exercise or walk around, whatever it is.
Speaker: having those breaks in between so you let your body and your mind recover from the pressure, which it's ah it's another thing that I mentioned and it's very critical, is that pressure is not necessarily bad for you. It's actually highly beneficial and it helps you grow.
Speaker: But when you're under that pressure continuously, it's when the issue starts to arise. So having those breaks and taking care of your your health and making sure that you're leaning into the cynicism and feeling like you have control over the activities that you do in your day by being intentional with setting breaks, setting different blocked times, those are all critical and important important aspects of living a life that is still highly productive, but it also is very enjoyable.
Speaker: That is true. With a couple of things that come to mind listening to you there was that with my HR hat on, I'm thinking if someone is constantly working under pressure, then the job itself needs to be redesigned to remove some of that pressure.
Speaker: And because pressure can be good, but if it's long-term, then it's bad and the job needs to be redesigned. And the other thing was that, yes, you've got to timetable in those breaks, whether that's simply just to take a walk at lunchtime or go to the gym.
Speaker: And you there's one of those things that you can... walk into a gym or a swimming pool or tennis court, any type of place where you are going to do some physical activity, feeling um miserable, no better word. You're there because you've committed to be there.
Speaker: You're playing a game of squash, tennis, whatever, with someone else. You can't let them down. This is just adding to the pressure. But, you know, half an hour, 45 minutes later, all of those little chemicals in your brain start to kick in and and you leave feeling...
Speaker: a lot better than when you arrived, even though you have put in a lot of physical energy into that activity, the mental health benefits of that activity are immense. Yeah, yeah. I mean, at this point, there's there's been countless studies that show that some some sort of activity is better than depression pills. so yeah It's no longer a myth. It's just some people think that the the only way to do so is dedicating an hour or going in and running marathons or, you know, going on three hour bike rides or something like that. is Activities can mean a simple 10 minute walk.
Speaker: It can mean yes playing around with your dog. It doesn't have to be so complicated. it's just getting up from your desk and walking to the water cooler, shaking it off. ah Even that is enough if you're constantly just under that pressure.
Speaker: Yes. Just breaking it really helps. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. You've got to work out what works for you, as well as the key thing, don't just simply do what other people do. Work out what works for you.
Speaker: You know, Sherbon, it is such a big subject. We've only really scratched the surface, I know. It's great to have you here today. Thank you very much. really do appreciate your time. Yeah, appreciate the discussion.
Speaker: Thank you. Likewise. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida. In this episode of Rest and Recreation, I have been having a conversation with Shobhan Mehre, an expert in burnout and how to overcome burnout.
Speaker: You can find out more information about both of us at abbasida.co.uk and more information about Shobhan at his website as well. There is a link in the description. We've talked a lot about maintaining good health and one of the best ways of staying healthier is to understand and know the risks early.
Speaker: That is why we recommend the health tests available from York Test and especially their annual health test. The annual health test covers 39 different health markers.
Speaker: The annual health test is is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UK AS accredited and CQC compliant lab.
Speaker: You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime via your secure personal wellness hub account. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
Speaker: I'm sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of Rest and Recreation as much as Siobhan and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
Speaker: to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
Speaker: Until the next episode of Rest and Recreation, thank you for listening and goodbye.
