Transcript
Speaker: I think for a lot of people, they shut down.
Speaker: They don't talk about their grief.
Speaker: They'll either overwork, underperform, binge on something, develop destructive habits.
Speaker: And it's all because they're trying to go around grief instead of going through it.
Speaker: Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast.
Speaker: I'm your host Jennifer Muldenny aka the Glam Reaper.
Speaker: Although definitely today more of the Reaper and less of the glam as I just got back from a very very long drive 10 hours to North Carolina where I was helping a funeral home with a escorted body down to North Carolina where we worked on aquamation or water cremation as a lot of people know about it we've talked about it on the podcast.
Speaker: So I might do a whole podcast or video about that experience.
Speaker: Very, very interesting.
Speaker: But anyway, so forgive the tiredness, forgive less of the glam today.
Speaker: But I'm very, very excited for my next guest.
Speaker: We were connected through a fantastic Irish networking, women's Irish networking, women's, sorry, not Irish, a women's networking group here in New York.
Speaker: Clearly, I'm very overtired right now.
Speaker: A women's networking group called Luminary that's based here in New York City.
Speaker: So I would like to welcome an irate doctor and author, Sweeta.
Speaker: Welcome.
Speaker: Thank you, Jennifer.
Speaker: And for those of you who are tuning in, big gratitude.
Speaker: Jennifer still looks fabulous.
Speaker: She's just not playing yet.
Speaker: And then it's incredible 10 hours.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: And that's intense work.
Speaker: It was intense work.
Speaker: It was 10 hours down and it was it was actually longer coming back.
Speaker: It was a whole story.
Speaker: So it was a lot of things.
Speaker: We had to meet the family down there.
Speaker: They didn't arrive on time.
Speaker: They actually fell asleep at wheel.
Speaker: They had a car accident.
Speaker: It was a whole thing.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: Supposed to be sort of a just down and down there one day and back up the next day.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: It ended up spanning over three days.
Speaker: But I'm not going to use this episode to talk all about that as interesting as the whole water formation is.
Speaker: I really want, Suita, for you to tell the listeners of the Glamour Podcast all about you.
Speaker: Well, thank you.
Speaker: I am excited to be here.
Speaker: My name is Shweta Vikram.
Speaker: I am an author of 14 books.
Speaker: The Lost That Binds Us is my 14th book.
Speaker: I'm an Ayurvedic doctor and a speaker.
Speaker: So I help people thrive in their own terms when it comes to the diet lifestyle and to help lead a life without excessive boundaries.
Speaker: Because I'm one of those people, if you tell me you can't do this starting tomorrow, then tonight I'm going to be like, I'm doing all of that.
Speaker: So it's like, how do we find that holistic balance without judgment, less criticism and kindness to itself?
Speaker: So that's the work that I do.
Speaker: And I do it through one-on-one Ayurvedic coaching.
Speaker: I teach workshops, do speaking engagements at entrepreneurial spaces like Luminary, the one that Jennifer just mentioned, at corporations.
Speaker: Yeah, and I also write for magazines and wellness articles and books.
Speaker: Amazing.
Speaker: And tell us the book that you have.
Speaker: You will tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker: But how did you come to write that book?
Speaker: What made you sort of go into the grief space as such?
Speaker: Which, by the way, in the 10 hour drive down back that
Speaker: Myself, my colleague had, we talked about all that and I was sort of like, right, because all the food is terrible.
Speaker: The food options on these drives.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: The diet starts the day I get back about to do this.
Speaker: So I love all of this.
Speaker: We might talk about that another time.
Speaker: But I do want to specifically talk about this book and sort of the journey that got you to this book.
Speaker: So, you know, in May of 2020, 2023, exactly a year ago, suddenly we get a call.
Speaker: My dad is not doing well.
Speaker: And I was in India in April.
Speaker: So he was OK then.
Speaker: And then we bought a plane.
Speaker: Then we get a call.
Speaker: Oh, my father-in-law is in the ICU.
Speaker: And we lost my dad and my father-in-law again unexpectedly two days apart.
Speaker: And this is around the time of my mom's ninth death anniversary.
Speaker: So May to me is a whole other beast that I'd rather erase from my calendar.
Speaker: No offense to anyone who celebrates May.
Speaker: This is just my personal feeling and it's still very raw because I got back from Asia, Singapore and India just on Sunday.
Speaker: I wanted to do this trip before the one year and...
Speaker: So yeah, I wrote this book because my dad would always say, you know, we need to normalize grief.
Speaker: We need to have conversations around the most natural thing in this world because...
Speaker: Every culture has these taboos, has these negative connotations, there's shame around grief and death doesn't discriminate.
Speaker: You know, you know this because if you were.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I know friends, families who have been shunned by others or abandoned once they started, you know, dealing with grief.
Speaker: And in this case, specifically the loss of a loved one.
Speaker: It's as if like their grief was contagious or if as if it was shameful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The other reason I wrote this book was because I wanted it to be, you know, when you're going through something so hard, you don't want to sit with a piece of literature that is like 500 pages old.
Speaker: You want something simple because I didn't have access to that.
Speaker: You know, the grief also brings around this dark side in us, right?
Speaker: No one talks about that because the world we live in, we are just supposed to discuss highlighted reels of our lives.
Speaker: Well, the thing has to be that great.
Speaker: You talking about a 10-hour bride not being the best.
Speaker: People are like, yeah, but I wanted to hear about the spots that she saw, the places where she ate at.
Speaker: So I think you're so conditioned, unfortunately, to projected lives, to projections and performances that authentic, vulnerable stories go missing in penis lives.
Speaker: And when someone asked me, why don't people talk about grief?
Speaker: I said, because they shunned.
Speaker: There's grief hierarchy.
Speaker: There's grief comparison.
Speaker: People tell you when to stop grieving.
Speaker: It's such an individual journey.
Speaker: So I think there were so many reasons.
Speaker: Firstly, I wanted to talk about the raw side of grief, but also when you're on the other side and the other side means different things to different people in the grief journey.
Speaker: What are the ways to honor those you've lost?
Speaker: So it's the whole gamut, the whole journey.
Speaker: And I want to honor that grief and grieving the individual journeys.
Speaker: But I think grief is also very universal.
Speaker: It's an experience none of us get to miss.
Speaker: No, absolutely.
Speaker: And gosh, everything you're saying there is so on point.
Speaker: It's kind of wild.
Speaker: It's so sad to me that and we just recently recorded a podcast with Rebecca from Modern Laws and exactly kind of the same thing.
Speaker: Yeah, where she was just sort of.
Speaker: You know, the experience she went through and and and how she started it sort of nearly just as a blog to sort of just talk about her emotions and kind of get it, get her thoughts out there.
Speaker: And now it's grown into this huge thing.
Speaker: And she's also an author and stuff.
Speaker: And even like.
Speaker: You know, my little TEDx talk that I did so many years ago now, but it was about my pet loss because I felt sort of people judged that as a less that.
Speaker: And I felt that.
Speaker: And so like I lead the audience on a bit of a journey of thinking it's maybe my granny or something.
Speaker: And then I'm like, it's my dog.
Speaker: Are you judging me differently now?
Speaker: Because we do.
Speaker: We sort of replace these judgments.
Speaker: And exactly as you said, people are comfortable to sit in grief.
Speaker: Like, I actually think it's one of the reasons why I'm nearly successful at what I do, because I don't treat my clients like they're about to break, like they're an eggshell and they're about to break.
Speaker: I don't whisper to them.
Speaker: I don't sort of do the typical funereal, quoteable funereal things.
Speaker: I treat them like a normal human being.
Speaker: And I sit in there.
Speaker: I let them.
Speaker: grieve you know I don't sort of say okay now we need to talk about the event and now you need to just stop running it's sort of a you know okay let's just sit here let's just figure this out and it's yeah it's a very fascinating part of being human that we do we just and it just what you said there about how we show like these highlighted reels I don't know how many times people have said to me and especially recently actually because I did so much travel and now I've added North Carolina as well
Speaker: But they're like, I think you travel so much and gosh, to live that life.
Speaker: And I'm like, you have no clue.
Speaker: Just because I'm on this in this last three days, I think I or four days, whatever it was.
Speaker: I think I posted like a photo of a martini and I maybe posted a photo of a hotel room.
Speaker: But those were the two tiny moments of joy that was in the entire, you know, escapade.
Speaker: And yeah, it's just so fascinating.
Speaker: I really like that.
Speaker: Yeah, you just said we do.
Speaker: We focus on these like summarized reels of good stuff and we don't actually get into the vulnerability.
Speaker: Why is that?
Speaker: I think it's again because lack of acceptance.
Speaker: You know, to me, yoga has been transformative, not physically.
Speaker: Oh, yes, physically, sure.
Speaker: But that could be other forms as well.
Speaker: I think yoga and Ayurveda and Ayurveda is a science of life have been mentally really transformative.
Speaker: Like they taught me to be more self-reliant.
Speaker: Sure, we all love external validation.
Speaker: Who doesn't want 50 people standing and telling them, oh, my God, I hear you.
Speaker: But that's not going to happen.
Speaker: And I think for a lot of people, they shut down.
Speaker: They don't talk about their grief.
Speaker: They'll either overwork, underperform, binge on something, develop destructive habits.
Speaker: And it's all because they're trying to go around grief instead of going through it.
Speaker: And it's something I'm realizing even in my clients.
Speaker: And what you said, Jennifer, is so profound at one of my events recently at a cemetery.
Speaker: You know, I did this whole grief workshop and this couple came up to me and they were like, you know, my loss, our loss wasn't as significant as yours.
Speaker: I said, who, what did you lose?
Speaker: It could be loss of health.
Speaker: It could be job loss.
Speaker: Any, you know, I mean, grief is the response to any kind of loss.
Speaker: It's like, you know, we lost a cat.
Speaker: I said, was the cat a family member to you?
Speaker: They were like, yes.
Speaker: I said, so your grief, we don't have to compare, but it's just as big as anyone else's.
Speaker: So in just hearing that, they were like, oh, no one has ever said that to us.
Speaker: So they never thought they had the permission to talk about the pet just the way someone had the permission to talk about a dead relative.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And there was another woman who was like she had just gotten laid off from a job that she'd worked at for, like, I think, I believe two decades, if I'm not butchering the dates.
Speaker: There was grief of that.
Speaker: Like, who am I outside of this work?
Speaker: So there's the loss of identity.
Speaker: I'm like, you hold your space for your grief.
Speaker: There's no comparison, you know, just because I lost my dad and my father-in-law doesn't mean my grief is bigger than yours.
Speaker: But they were like, no one has ever said that to them.
Speaker: And I think the way we are trained as society, everything is a competition.
Speaker: Everything is a comparison.
Speaker: Even in our case, you know, because both my parents are now gone, my husband still has his mom, people were trying to rationalize how her grief was more important than my husband's grief or his sister's grief.
Speaker: So I'm like, how are we comparing loss of a husband and loss of a father?
Speaker: They're both really monumental losses.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that's one of the reasons people just don't talk about this, this judgment, this criticism and this comparison.
Speaker: Like grief is so heavy.
Speaker: Grief is never light.
Speaker: It weighs us down, you know, metaphorically, physically, emotionally in every which way.
Speaker: And then you have the burden of being told, well, sit there in a corner because your story doesn't matter.
Speaker: And, you know, you're relying when you're going through the grieving period.
Speaker: We all rely on people to get us.
Speaker: But when the same people tell you your story is not as important as someone else's, they choose to shut down.
Speaker: Yeah, no.
Speaker: And it's it's got it's so true.
Speaker: Everything you're saying, like and even back to the yoga like comment you made, I I personally I love hot yoga and exactly what you said.
Speaker: And I think it can apply to a lot of forms of exercise, especially non-team and like solo sports like running or walking or whatever.
Speaker: There is this meditative state you can get into.
Speaker: That's the one thing you're focused on.
Speaker: And I have to say, and I actually have been really bad with it because I've been traveling and kind of sick a lot since Christmas.
Speaker: But it was my one hour that I would take out of the day where the phones would be off.
Speaker: I was inaccessible.
Speaker: And it was just me and myself, the mirror.
Speaker: You know, what everyone else was doing on either side of me really taught me about that.
Speaker: It taught me to kind of appreciate my body.
Speaker: To not be looking at the person beside me because the person beside me could be a gymnast or a ballerina or we just there was there's different strength.
Speaker: There's just and also even just for myself, like one day I'd go in, I'd be flexible as a pretzel.
Speaker: Then I couldn't touch my toes.
Speaker: And then there's the emotional releases that you find through yoga as well.
Speaker: But like, again, you could find that running or whatever.
Speaker: It's all these different.
Speaker: But exactly that, like the one of the things I am.
Speaker: So my TEDx talk was called Grief is Unique as Your Heartbeat.
Speaker: Because we all have a different heartbeat.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: And so, like, why would our grief be the same?
Speaker: Like two twins.
Speaker: you know, set of twins, they're not going to grieve a mom the same because there's a slightly different relationship.
Speaker: Even if it's just minuscule, it's still reflective through like, like, I don't know how many times I've said this, whether it's in writing, like, or, you know, on podcasts or whatever interviews I'm doing.
Speaker: You and I will never experience this moment, the moment that just went.
Speaker: We will never experience.
Speaker: No one in the world will ever experience that again.
Speaker: No one ever in this world will sit here having comfort with your breath and our drape, you know, with allergies and sitting here talking to you and having this conversation like it will.
Speaker: It's a moment in time that once it's gone, it's gone.
Speaker: It's just we're so unique.
Speaker: So why do we sort of think that grief should be boxed into these like little compartments?
Speaker: And OK, your pet loss, so you're not so big as child loss or losing a mom.
Speaker: That's different.
Speaker: Or even like in my case, which I talk about in the TED talk and in various different things since is how I got into this business was two of my best friends lost their siblings.
Speaker: Now, I say that actually one of them was she lost her cousin.
Speaker: But he was like a sibling to her.
Speaker: So when I say that to people, she lost her cousin, they kind of, it's not as bad.
Speaker: But he was like her brother because they were both only children.
Speaker: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker: So absolutely.
Speaker: Why you're judging her.
Speaker: You know, it's fascinating how we prioritize who gets to have what, you know.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And who is to tell somebody else what the relationship should be?
Speaker: Whether it's to a cat, a dog, a cousin, a friend or whatever have you.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And people don't realize because very often the burnout happens because of unresolved grief.
Speaker: Diseases happen.
Speaker: Mental health challenges arise because of unresolved grief.
Speaker: Like we cannot go around grief.
Speaker: And even in our house, you know, both my husband and I were grieving.
Speaker: I'm an external process.
Speaker: I need to write.
Speaker: That's how I make sense of stuff.
Speaker: And I talk about things.
Speaker: And then one day, like I was very skeptical to go to India this time around.
Speaker: You know, when I first went to Singapore, that's where my brother is.
Speaker: So my heart hinged like, oh, my one sibling, the only, you know, the blood relation I have alive.
Speaker: Then I got landed in India.
Speaker: And when I was filling out the immigration form, there was the first time in 20 plus years I didn't use my dad's number or address.
Speaker: And that's when I'm like, that's how temperamental grief is.
Speaker: And I'm not a friar.
Speaker: And that's one of my problems.
Speaker: It's like I don't cry easily.
Speaker: But when I do, I hold space for it.
Speaker: I just broke down and people around me were looking at me and I'm like, that's okay.
Speaker: This isn't about what they think of me.
Speaker: This is about what I need to do.
Speaker: But because I allowed myself that space, like...
Speaker: holy crap this sucks this is so real like oh you're an adult orphan like that's the voice I heard in my head then it changed my relationship with India okay so is this is what is this to me now this is this the country of my ancestors do I go back here as a tourist all of these conversations of people don't allow themselves to go there they're like well just before I land I'll have a drink so I don't need to deal with this
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's also, it's interesting, like just what you said even there about breaking down in public and how, you know, immediately we kind of think what people would think of us.
Speaker: But I would say I've talked to, obviously, I would say thousands definitely, but maybe millions, I don't know, people about grief and bereavement and stuff like that.
Speaker: And I think a lot of them would say that sometimes, and oftentimes I would even say, a stranger can be more kind to you and your grief
Speaker: where you're at in your grief than your friends and your family because they're holding they have this image of you know who Jennifer is and what she how strong she's supposed to be or not supposed to be and so there's a certain you know she's got to do this and like one of my best friends said to me quite recently what did he say that I'm the most
Speaker: I am.
Speaker: I persevere no matter what.
Speaker: He was like, you're you're just he said, no matter what, you just go through.
Speaker: And I thought, yeah, but there'll be a day when I won't be able to.
Speaker: And you need to be OK with that, Jennifer, too.
Speaker: You know, resilient.
Speaker: That was the exact word he used.
Speaker: I was resilient.
Speaker: And I just think like and I remember when we put our dog down and we were there for 16 years, I went to the local church and I'm while I was raised Catholic, I don't really go to the church very often.
Speaker: But I went to the church because it just felt like the place I needed to be.
Speaker: And the woman showed me such incredible kindness that I'd nearly get upset about it now because I was just sitting there sobbing my heart out.
Speaker: Whereas, you know, sometimes if you do that in the company of friends,
Speaker: They don't know what to do and they feel awkward and you then feel more worse because you're feeling, you know, their shame and their awkwardness and it becomes this whole thing.
Speaker: So, yeah, in some ways, like a stranger can show kindness where.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And I think what you said resonated so deeply with me, much like you have.
Speaker: People refer to me as like the strong and resilient one.
Speaker: And, you know, don't use that against me.
Speaker: So my point with everyone has been like, stop labeling grievers.
Speaker: Stop labeling people, period.
Speaker: But especially those who are grieving.
Speaker: Because when you say that you're so strong, you're so resilient, I hear, okay, don't need to cry.
Speaker: Don't need to be vulnerable.
Speaker: We know you've got this.
Speaker: Don't shut down.
Speaker: And, you know, then you don't check in on people.
Speaker: And then they're also the absolutionists, right?
Speaker: They'll check in one stick.
Speaker: I checked in on somebody who was grieving.
Speaker: So it becomes a plethora of reasons why people don't ever, you know, really heal on a cellular level.
Speaker: See, I feel like it never goes away.
Speaker: Someone you've loved and is gone, whether it's a pet or a person or end of a friendship or end of a marriage, like you're going to feel that loss.
Speaker: But the intensity does decrease over a period of time.
Speaker: But how much it decreases and how deeply the healing...
Speaker: healing happens how deep the healing happens it depends on the opportunity someone has had to work on their own breathing and healing like i have a friend who was saying to me that you know her dad passed away and there was a birthday on her in-law side and
Speaker: couple of months later or it was around her dad's birthday that there was a celebration and she's like no one really cares like because then this person is gone yes we've cried we've offered flowers you know we'll go to the cemetery and all of that stuff but uh offer flowers but there's an alive person so let's just go celebrate them and she's like they're two equally important
Speaker: situations I am not saying I won't celebrate but why can't you give me the space to mourn so also there is this timeline that people add which I think is so frustrating you know if someone is really in that bad of a situation get mental health out but sometimes it's okay to just it'll take time there will be days where you're just in your pajamas and you know curled up like a prawn on the floor for lack of a better description and that's how grief can feel
Speaker: But people aren't given the permission.
Speaker: It's like, yeah, now that's done.
Speaker: But when I was in India, somebody said that to me, you know, losing your parents' circle of life.
Speaker: And I'm thinking, how privileged to be you.
Speaker: Everyone in your family is alive and you can say that to me.
Speaker: And I was like, you know, I never thought in my 40s I'd be an adult orphan.
Speaker: I was just being vulnerable.
Speaker: And they were like,
Speaker: It happens all the time.
Speaker: I'm like, I don't think it happens all the time.
Speaker: It's sad if it's happened to anyone.
Speaker: But the point is, even if you are, I know this woman in my gym who's in her 60s and she lost her mom when she turned 101.
Speaker: And even then, I always remind her, like, so what?
Speaker: She was still your mom.
Speaker: It doesn't matter how old you are or how old she was.
Speaker: And I think I wish people had a little bit more empathy.
Speaker: It's like instead of trying to say, let's wrap up this conversation because I'm uncomfortable.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you know what?
Speaker: It is very fascinating as well, because being in this space and working in the death space in general, and it is evolving, right?
Speaker: And there's a lot more young people coming into it and people are getting more vocal about it and writing about it and things like that.
Speaker: And it is I find it fascinating to watch, though, because I do think there's different sides to it.
Speaker: So, for example, we're talking about it more.
Speaker: And so people are kind of airing the well, I hate when somebody says everything happens for a reason or, you know, there's certain terms that people are like, never say that to me, you know, never say that.
Speaker: And people are kind of burning up the stage.
Speaker: We say that.
Speaker: And I have to say, I'm a bit on the other side where I'm like, I understand.
Speaker: I absolutely understand the frustration when somebody says something that hurts you when you're grieving.
Speaker: I understand that.
Speaker: But I do also feel as a society, we we we have to look after ourselves.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like.
Speaker: At the end of the day, it comes down to self-love.
Speaker: Like, there's nobody going to love you or take care of you better than you can take care of yourself.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: In that, we're responsible for also communicating that this is what I need for my grief.
Speaker: Like, for example, you might be somebody who is an angry griever and just needs to vent, right, once a day or whenever it might be.
Speaker: I might be somebody who...
Speaker: cries into this pillow or whatever.
Speaker: Like we're all totally different human beings.
Speaker: And I just feel like, you know, like somebody said, actually, I think it was commented on something on Instagram and my company's Instagram page where it was like, I can't stand when people say passed on or passed away.
Speaker: They're dead.
Speaker: They're just dead.
Speaker: I was like, yeah, but Jennifer, like if my mum dies or when my mum dies, like I think I think using the I understand where that person is coming from.
Speaker: But I feel like if she turns around and says your mum's dead, that's a brutal word.
Speaker: I feel like I would be a bit sort of like, oh, my God, like I know she is.
Speaker: But like the word.
Speaker: So we're just my point was I understand that that's your word.
Speaker: you don't like that, that doesn't mean that the world has to get on board with what you agree.
Speaker: So, for example, like, and, you know, I'm saying this, I guess, because it's one of my everything happens for a reason.
Speaker: That is a really hard statement.
Speaker: And I would never say to somebody who has just lost a person.
Speaker: I wouldn't.
Speaker: But I say it a lot about things that happen in my own life.
Speaker: Like I have...
Speaker: you know, I've missed a train or a plane has delayed something.
Speaker: And I'm like, everything happens for a reason, Jen.
Speaker: You're meant to meet somebody at the airport who you weren't going to or blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: It's just that helps me sort of look at things positively and sort of move through, you know, put one foot in front of the other.
Speaker: I would never say to somebody who lost somebody.
Speaker: The point is we all deal with things differently.
Speaker: And I do think it's our responsibility as a human being, as in ourselves, to as much as we can.
Speaker: And this is a big ask of somebody who's grieving, but as much as possible to communicate to your loved ones.
Speaker: This is what I need from you.
Speaker: I just I would rather if you didn't say things like.
Speaker: this and and you know when I talk about mom it's okay like please don't get all uncomfortable like I really want to just talk about her and let's share those stories and actually as a celebrant um when I'm talking when I'm giving a service and the family will always okay this but when I'm giving a service a lot of times at the very very end and families are like oh my god thank you so much for for saying that the very very end I'll say you know
Speaker: They're not always in this exact way, but I'll say, you know, there's a saying that they say we die twice, once when we leave our physical bodies and the second time when somebody says our name for the last time.
Speaker: So I urge you today to continue to talk about person and to continue for months, weeks, years.
Speaker: The family will appreciate it.
Speaker: The person has just disappeared.
Speaker: They want to hear the memories and all those gorgeous things that the person, you know, the legacy they've left.
Speaker: And because it is, we got to get, you don't want to, I don't want to upset you by talking about your parents, you know, it's like,
Speaker: I don't upset her.
Speaker: Like, I really like her.
Speaker: And like, you know, but you won't really talk about it.
Speaker: And it's something I recommend in my book, The Loss That Binds Us.
Speaker: It's one of the ways to keep their memory of their many ways, right?
Speaker: You know, cook their favorite foods.
Speaker: Like I, you know, my dad being dad, like Old Spice.
Speaker: My mom loved Jasmine, Mogras.
Speaker: Those scents are in my home office, right?
Speaker: Created a little altar next to my desk.
Speaker: Celebrating their birthdays, anniversaries, donating to their favorite causes.
Speaker: But also most importantly,
Speaker: talking about them, sending their name, you know, keeping their essence alive.
Speaker: In fact, I have a very dear friend and I really appreciate it.
Speaker: I was telling her I'm going to borrow her words for when somebody else is in that situation.
Speaker: She was like, you know, I haven't and I know that she's not lost her parents and knock on wood.
Speaker: She's like, I've known her for 30 years and she's like, you know, we've kind of grown up together.
Speaker: It just I don't know what to say.
Speaker: I want to be.
Speaker: And I was like, you know, you are there for me.
Speaker: And sometimes silence is a beautiful form of support.
Speaker: So for anyone who is listening in, sometimes just ask the person because a griever is dealing with so much heaviness.
Speaker: They might.
Speaker: I love Jennifer's suggestion that as grievers, we need to communicate.
Speaker: But sometimes there's just so much going on.
Speaker: We have these expectations which we don't communicate.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But when someone comes in and says, what can I do?
Speaker: So saying this is what you might be feeling or this is what you should do or wrap it up and move on.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: What can I do?
Speaker: And I've told you enough people will just say, just knowing that you're there makes me feel
Speaker: supported or loved or you know visible or seen when you're grieving because grieving can be grief is so heavy but I think grieving is so light because it's very isolating.
Speaker: Yeah yes I don't disagree and you know what I love that and I actually my next question was to talk about the tips from your book and just like from my own little random personal experience and I wasn't in the business at all at the time but like that my best friend who lost her cousin who was like a brother to her
Speaker: You know, when he died and she rang me and told me, I dropped everything and I went down.
Speaker: It was down the country in Ireland.
Speaker: I went down.
Speaker: But I brought... I just thought of, again, okay, what can I do?
Speaker: What can I do to help?
Speaker: And that's, I guess, that's nearly what I was trying to get across there is most people aren't saying, oh, everything happens for a reason or whatever.
Speaker: To hurt you, they're trying to make you feel better.
Speaker: And we, as grievers, do also... And look, that is a huge ask, but you...
Speaker: Most people are not trying to hurt you.
Speaker: They're trying.
Speaker: They just they're trying.
Speaker: And so there's a there's also a thing of a space that we need to forgive and sort of have that hold that space a bit for them.
Speaker: That, OK, this person said the worst thing they could to me.
Speaker: But I know they didn't mean it like a dagger to the heart, like it came, you know, it came out.
Speaker: But I brought my best friend, David.
Speaker: We laugh about it still to this day.
Speaker: I did a little care package for her.
Speaker: I went to the local store.
Speaker: I bought her some panties.
Speaker: I bought her, like, she'll hate me saying this, but I bought her that.
Speaker: I bought her some vitamin C soluble things.
Speaker: I bought her some chocolate.
Speaker: I bought her all these just tiny little things.
Speaker: Because I knew she had dropped everything and raced to his side down the country.
Speaker: So, and when I got down and gave it to her, she was like, Gem, oh my God, thank you so much.
Speaker: Like, I didn't, I didn't pack a thing.
Speaker: She was like, it was everything I needed.
Speaker: And she was like, because I know her so well.
Speaker: And I just, I thought, well, she would have dropped everything to be with him.
Speaker: So I'm sure she probably didn't bring a change of, you know,
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: But then, and I hold my hand up with this and I've talked about it before, but then in the same breath, that same best friend who I do know so well, her cousin, I was also friends with, right?
Speaker: And I, on social media, made a comment about how his light would always shine.
Speaker: It was something like that.
Speaker: And it was something trivial, but it was something like that where I was just putting it on his page or whatever.
Speaker: She didn't talk to me for three months.
Speaker: I was broken hearted.
Speaker: I didn't know what had happened.
Speaker: I didn't know if it was just because she was grieving or whatever.
Speaker: And it took her seeing a therapist to actually come back to me.
Speaker: And I did kept trying to reach out or whatever.
Speaker: And she said, because she's atheist, insulted her.
Speaker: And she thought, how could my best friend do this to me?
Speaker: How could how could Jennifer be so cruel to me when she knows that I don't believe he's his light is still going or whatever?
Speaker: But what she said, she said it took her going to therapy to realize.
Speaker: But that was how I was dealing with it because I believe his light is still going.
Speaker: I forgot.
Speaker: She said in my grief, I forgot that you were also grieving.
Speaker: You weren't just my best friend supporting me.
Speaker: You were grieving his loss, too.
Speaker: And it was just a really interesting conversation for us to come together and have.
Speaker: Because you do, you have all these people who are around you and have different relationships with the different people.
Speaker: So and it's a learning curve.
Speaker: I mean, here was I didn't certainly didn't mean to hurt her in any way.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So let's talk a bit more about the tips, because I loved that, like celebrating the person, you know, their birthdays.
Speaker: And I love that sense of the foods like what would be your, I guess, maybe top five from the book.
Speaker: So top five was to keep their essence alive.
Speaker: So talk about them.
Speaker: And I'm not saying this in a guru sort of way to go crazy or whatever, but like I'll give you an example.
Speaker: I had tickets booked to go to India for my dad's birthday, but he suddenly died three months prior to that.
Speaker: So we did a little birthday party at home.
Speaker: And my aunt, his sister, wore a new sari.
Speaker: And she said, you know, he got this for my anniversary and they didn't get to see me wear this.
Speaker: So I'm like, that's his picture at the altar.
Speaker: Stand in front of it.
Speaker: And I'm like, this is a crazy idea now if you start chasing his picture and quit on life.
Speaker: But if in that moment, just let him know that, hey, I want the sari.
Speaker: Like, what do you think of it?
Speaker: I said, you know what?
Speaker: It just makes you feel connected.
Speaker: Don't get too cerebral about the process.
Speaker: So connect the way like I look for mystical signs.
Speaker: If there's a butterfly or a pigeon or, you know, lights flickering.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: People I'll have people say, but like, how can you prove?
Speaker: I said, how can you prove otherwise either?
Speaker: If this brings me solace, like I say, I'm not quitting on life and chasing pigeons through Central Park.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So find your ways of what makes you feel connected to like, oh, they're trying to reach out.
Speaker: Cooking their favorite foods can be incredible.
Speaker: Even like I said, you know, mogra or Indian jasmine and old spice.
Speaker: Like I keep them.
Speaker: So and I was very close to my father.
Speaker: So if it's going to be a tough day at work or if it's been a tough day, I'll dab a little around my wrist.
Speaker: I'm like, I just feel he's there.
Speaker: And I wasn't the child who would reach out and say, I have a problem.
Speaker: I've been very self-reliant.
Speaker: But now because they're gone, I just feel, oh, there's no one there.
Speaker: And again, don't put that pressure on your partner.
Speaker: That'll be my follow-up suggestion.
Speaker: In our case, it was an extreme situation where both me and my husband had lost a dad each.
Speaker: But even otherwise, you know, your partner has other responsibilities too.
Speaker: Yes, they have one towards you.
Speaker: But their family as well, their sibling, their parents, all of that.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Becoming self-reliant is extremely important.
Speaker: And that would look like different things to different people and it doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker: But like relying more on yourself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Also, expectations can be so evil.
Speaker: And I've dealt with that.
Speaker: I have a tendency to overextend myself.
Speaker: So when I was dealing with my grief, I expected that.
Speaker: Nothing materialistic, only emotional.
Speaker: I'm the kind of person who'll remember my friend's mom's death anniversary, her favorite color, her favorite foods.
Speaker: And I'll then send out a group message and have everyone wear her favorite color, take a selfie, make a collage, cook their favorite food.
Speaker: So when I was dealing with my grief, I had those expectations.
Speaker: And in reflection, I realized no one asked me to do that.
Speaker: If that's my nature, I need to own it.
Speaker: And then maybe take a few steps back because it is exhausting to remember.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But then also so check in.
Speaker: Like Jennifer, I loved your point.
Speaker: Like people are trying to be nice.
Speaker: Everyone tries to show up in different ways.
Speaker: People show support in different ways.
Speaker: So, you know, don't be rigid about this is what support looks like because when we push our loved ones away.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because, you know, no one can match up to your expectations and even you don't know what your expectations are.
Speaker: They all appear.
Speaker: Yeah, that is, that's absolutely brilliant.
Speaker: And actually a wonderful kind of bringing the conversation to a close because I actually, again, the 10 hour drive in the car, we obviously had to discuss, but we, one of the things I learned really, really young when I was in my twenties, actually, in living in Washington, D.C.,
Speaker: I had super high expectations for friends because I am a very good friend and I am that friend who shows up, texts on birthdays, texts on death adversaries, you know, all of the things I like have calendar reminders.
Speaker: I'm just that person.
Speaker: But not everybody is.
Speaker: And you can't have those expectations exactly as you said.
Speaker: And so I learned this quote and I only repeated it to my friend here because that's exactly what he was kind of going through this struggle.
Speaker: And I said, listen, just because somebody doesn't love you the way you love them doesn't mean they don't love you with all that they have.
Speaker: And I think if you like you really have to kind of sit down and look at that or repeat it a few times before you really go, wow.
Speaker: So just because somebody doesn't show up the way you want them to show up doesn't mean they're not showing up with all that they have in that moment.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And that's all you can ask from people.
Speaker: You know, I absolutely agree.
Speaker: I think it's so much better for your own mental peace.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's so much better.
Speaker: And it's it's a lesson we learn.
Speaker: And like, at least in my case, I was like, maybe I was overdoing it.
Speaker: And that's my nature.
Speaker: Bravo.
Speaker: But, you know, it's scaled back because if there are expectations, that's not healthy either.
Speaker: Like being OK to the idea of self-growth.
Speaker: That's brought upon by grief.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, that's it.
Speaker: It's absolutely amazing.
Speaker: Well, listen, thank you so much.
Speaker: This was super inspirational and a wonderful episode to record after such an arduous journey, honestly.
Speaker: I feel full of the love again, which is great.
Speaker: But thank you so much.
Speaker: Everybody, please go out and purchase the book and maybe show us, do another show and tell there.
Speaker: It's an incredible book.
Speaker: And so go ahead and buy it.
Speaker: And we'll connect you.
Speaker: And we'll leave all the links and everything for people down below this video and on the podcast in the description.
Speaker: And just thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker: Thank you for having me, Jennifer.
Speaker: And to everyone who's tuning in, I wish you health, happiness and healing.
