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The Complexity of Grief: A Personal Reflection
3 Plays7 months ago
Sweta Vikram, a renowned Author, Doctor of Ayurveda, Speaker, and Professor, sits down with Jennifer, The Glam Reaper to discuss grief and the profound journey to healing.
Sweta shares her personal experiences of losing her father and father-in-law, offering an intimate look at the initial stages of mourning. The discussion highlights the significance of treating those who are grieving with compassion and understanding.
Jennifer and Sweta explore the unique nature of grief, underscoring the importance of recognizing each individual's grieving experience. They also address the impact of unresolved grief on both mental and physical health, stressing the need to avoid labeling those who are grieving as simply strong or resilient.
Tune in to understand the unique and individual nature of grief and why it’s crucial to recognize it!
Key Topics:
-Personal loss stories reveal deep emotions
-Essential ways to support grieving families
-Yoga and Ayurveda secrets for funeral directors
-Understanding unique grief reactions at funerals
-Hidden dangers of unresolved grief in the funeral industry
Quotes From The Episode:
"The grief also brings around this dark side in us. No one talks about that, because the world we live in, we are just supposed to discuss highlighted reels of our lives"
- Sweta Vikram
"Often times a stranger can be more kind to you and your grief space, where you're in your grief than your friends and your family"
- Jennifer Muldowney
Timestamp:
[00:00] Podcast Intro
[03:42] Sweta shared her personal experience of losing her father and father-in-law.
[06:23] Jennifer highlighted the importance of treating people who are grieving.
[08:48] Sweta emphasized the transformative impact of Yoga and Ayurveda on mental self-reliance.
[11:41] Jennifer discussed the importance of recognizing the unique and individual nature of grief.
[14:31] Jennifer and Sweta talk about the impact of unresolved grief on mental and physical health.
[17:59] Sweta stressed the importance of not labeling those who are grieving as strong or resilient.
[20:46] Jennifer delves into the importance of self-care and clear communication in dealing with grief.
[24:53] Jennifer and Sweta highlighted the importance of preserving the memory of loved ones through actions.
[30:06] Sweta shared insights from her book "The Loss that Binds Us”.
[35:53] Outro
Connect with Sweta Vikram:
LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/swetavikram
Website - swetavikram.com
Instagram - @swetavikram
Twitter/X - @swetavikram
Connect with Jennifer/The Glam Reaper on socials at:
Facebook Page - Memorials
https://www.facebook.com/MuldowneyMemorials/
Instagram - @muldowneymemorials
Email us - glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
Listen to The Glam Reaper Podcast on Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-glam-reaper-podcast/id1572382989?i=1000525524145
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWe3sNoPny6UsMGYoYDeXfw
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Grief and Overcoming Avoidance
00:00:00
Speaker
I think for a lot of people, they shut down.
00:00:02
Speaker
They don't talk about their grief.
00:00:03
Speaker
They'll either overwork, underperform, binge on something, develop destructive habits.
00:00:11
Speaker
And it's all because they're trying to go around grief instead of going through it.
Introduction to Glam Reaper Podcast and Jennifer's Experience
00:00:27
Speaker
Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast.
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm your host Jennifer Muldenny aka the Glam Reaper.
00:00:34
Speaker
Although definitely today more of the Reaper and less of the glam as I just got back from a very very long drive 10 hours to North Carolina where I was helping a funeral home with a escorted body down to North Carolina where we worked on aquamation or water cremation as a lot of people know about it we've talked about it on the podcast.
00:00:54
Speaker
So I might do a whole podcast or video about that experience.
00:00:59
Speaker
Very, very interesting.
00:01:00
Speaker
But anyway, so forgive the tiredness, forgive less of the glam today.
Guest Introduction: Shweta Vikram and Her Journey
00:01:03
Speaker
But I'm very, very excited for my next guest.
00:01:05
Speaker
We were connected through a fantastic Irish networking, women's Irish networking, women's, sorry, not Irish, a women's networking group here in New York.
00:01:15
Speaker
Clearly, I'm very overtired right now.
00:01:17
Speaker
A women's networking group called Luminary that's based here in New York City.
00:01:21
Speaker
So I would like to welcome an irate doctor and author, Sweeta.
00:01:26
Speaker
Welcome.
00:01:28
Speaker
Thank you, Jennifer.
00:01:29
Speaker
And for those of you who are tuning in, big gratitude.
00:01:33
Speaker
Jennifer still looks fabulous.
00:01:34
Speaker
She's just not playing yet.
00:01:36
Speaker
And then it's incredible 10 hours.
00:01:38
Speaker
Wow.
00:01:39
Speaker
And that's intense work.
00:01:41
Speaker
It was intense work.
00:01:43
Speaker
It was 10 hours down and it was it was actually longer coming back.
00:01:47
Speaker
It was a whole story.
00:01:48
Speaker
So it was a lot of things.
00:01:50
Speaker
We had to meet the family down there.
00:01:51
Speaker
They didn't arrive on time.
00:01:52
Speaker
They actually fell asleep at wheel.
00:01:54
Speaker
They had a car accident.
00:01:55
Speaker
It was a whole thing.
00:01:57
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:01:57
Speaker
Supposed to be sort of a just down and down there one day and back up the next day.
00:02:02
Speaker
Right.
00:02:03
Speaker
It ended up spanning over three days.
00:02:04
Speaker
But I'm not going to use this episode to talk all about that as interesting as the whole water formation is.
00:02:12
Speaker
I really want, Suita, for you to tell the listeners of the Glamour Podcast all about you.
00:02:19
Speaker
Well, thank you.
Shweta on Grief and Personal Losses
00:02:21
Speaker
I am excited to be here.
00:02:22
Speaker
My name is Shweta Vikram.
00:02:24
Speaker
I am an author of 14 books.
00:02:25
Speaker
The Lost That Binds Us is my 14th book.
00:02:29
Speaker
I'm an Ayurvedic doctor and a speaker.
00:02:31
Speaker
So I help people thrive in their own terms when it comes to the diet lifestyle and to help lead a life without excessive boundaries.
00:02:40
Speaker
Because I'm one of those people, if you tell me you can't do this starting tomorrow, then tonight I'm going to be like, I'm doing all of that.
00:02:47
Speaker
So it's like, how do we find that holistic balance without judgment, less criticism and kindness to itself?
00:02:53
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So that's the work that I do.
00:02:54
Speaker
And I do it through one-on-one Ayurvedic coaching.
00:02:56
Speaker
I teach workshops, do speaking engagements at entrepreneurial spaces like Luminary, the one that Jennifer just mentioned, at corporations.
00:03:06
Speaker
Yeah, and I also write for magazines and wellness articles and books.
00:03:10
Speaker
Amazing.
00:03:11
Speaker
And tell us the book that you have.
00:03:16
Speaker
You will tell us a little bit about that.
00:03:18
Speaker
But how did you come to write that book?
00:03:20
Speaker
What made you sort of go into the grief space as such?
00:03:23
Speaker
Which, by the way, in the 10 hour drive down back that
00:03:26
Speaker
Myself, my colleague had, we talked about all that and I was sort of like, right, because all the food is terrible.
00:03:32
Speaker
The food options on these drives.
00:03:34
Speaker
Right.
00:03:34
Speaker
The diet starts the day I get back about to do this.
00:03:37
Speaker
So I love all of this.
00:03:38
Speaker
We might talk about that another time.
00:03:39
Speaker
But I do want to specifically talk about this book and sort of the journey that got you to this
The Universality and Individuality of Grief
00:03:45
Speaker
book.
00:03:45
Speaker
So, you know, in May of 2020, 2023, exactly a year ago, suddenly we get a call.
00:03:52
Speaker
My dad is not doing well.
00:03:53
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And I was in India in April.
00:03:55
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So he was OK then.
00:03:57
Speaker
And then we bought a plane.
00:03:59
Speaker
Then we get a call.
00:04:00
Speaker
Oh, my father-in-law is in the ICU.
00:04:02
Speaker
And we lost my dad and my father-in-law again unexpectedly two days apart.
00:04:07
Speaker
And this is around the time of my mom's ninth death anniversary.
00:04:11
Speaker
So May to me is a whole other beast that I'd rather erase from my calendar.
00:04:16
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No offense to anyone who celebrates May.
00:04:18
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This is just my personal feeling and it's still very raw because I got back from Asia, Singapore and India just on Sunday.
00:04:26
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I wanted to do this trip before the one year and...
00:04:29
Speaker
So yeah, I wrote this book because my dad would always say, you know, we need to normalize grief.
00:04:34
Speaker
We need to have conversations around the most natural thing in this world because...
00:04:40
Speaker
Every culture has these taboos, has these negative connotations, there's shame around grief and death doesn't discriminate.
00:04:48
Speaker
You know, you know this because if you were.
00:04:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:51
Speaker
But I know friends, families who have been shunned by others or abandoned once they started, you know, dealing with grief.
00:04:58
Speaker
And in this case, specifically the loss of a loved one.
00:05:01
Speaker
It's as if like their grief was contagious or if as if it was shameful.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
The other reason I wrote this book was because I wanted it to be, you know, when you're going through something so hard, you don't want to sit with a piece of literature that is like 500 pages old.
00:05:16
Speaker
You want something simple because I didn't have access to that.
00:05:19
Speaker
You know, the grief also brings around this dark side in us, right?
00:05:23
Speaker
No one talks about that because the world we live in, we are just supposed to discuss highlighted reels of our lives.
00:05:29
Speaker
Well, the thing has to be that great.
00:05:31
Speaker
You talking about a 10-hour bride not being the best.
00:05:34
Speaker
People are like, yeah, but I wanted to hear about the spots that she saw, the places where she ate at.
00:05:38
Speaker
So I think you're so conditioned, unfortunately, to projected lives, to projections and performances that authentic, vulnerable stories go missing in penis lives.
00:05:49
Speaker
And when someone asked me, why don't people talk about grief?
00:05:52
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I said, because they shunned.
00:05:54
Speaker
There's grief hierarchy.
00:05:55
Speaker
There's grief comparison.
00:05:56
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People tell you when to stop grieving.
00:05:59
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It's such an individual journey.
00:06:00
Speaker
So I think there were so many reasons.
00:06:02
Speaker
Firstly, I wanted to talk about the raw side of grief, but also when you're on the other side and the other side means different things to different people in the grief journey.
00:06:10
Speaker
What are the ways to honor those you've lost?
00:06:13
Speaker
So it's the whole gamut, the whole journey.
00:06:16
Speaker
And I want to honor that grief and grieving the individual journeys.
00:06:20
Speaker
But I think grief is also very universal.
00:06:22
Speaker
It's an experience none of us get to miss.
00:06:26
Speaker
No, absolutely.
00:06:27
Speaker
And gosh, everything you're saying there is so on point.
00:06:32
Speaker
It's kind of wild.
00:06:34
Speaker
It's so sad to me that and we just recently recorded a podcast with Rebecca from Modern Laws and exactly kind of the same thing.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, where she was just sort of.
00:06:45
Speaker
You know, the experience she went through and and and how she started it sort of nearly just as a blog to sort of just talk about her emotions and kind of get it, get her thoughts out there.
00:06:56
Speaker
And now it's grown into this huge thing.
00:06:58
Speaker
And she's also an author and stuff.
00:07:00
Speaker
And even
Judgment and Societal Pressures in Grieving
00:07:01
Speaker
like.
00:07:01
Speaker
You know, my little TEDx talk that I did so many years ago now, but it was about my pet loss because I felt sort of people judged that as a less that.
00:07:12
Speaker
And I felt that.
00:07:13
Speaker
And so like I lead the audience on a bit of a journey of thinking it's maybe my granny or something.
00:07:19
Speaker
And then I'm like, it's my dog.
00:07:20
Speaker
Are you judging me differently now?
00:07:21
Speaker
Because we do.
00:07:22
Speaker
We sort of replace these judgments.
00:07:24
Speaker
And exactly as you said, people are comfortable to sit in grief.
00:07:28
Speaker
Like, I actually think it's one of the reasons why I'm nearly successful at what I do, because I don't treat my clients like they're about to break, like they're an eggshell and they're about to break.
00:07:36
Speaker
I don't whisper to them.
00:07:37
Speaker
I don't sort of do the typical funereal, quoteable funereal things.
00:07:42
Speaker
I treat them like a normal human being.
00:07:44
Speaker
And I sit in there.
00:07:45
Speaker
I let them.
00:07:46
Speaker
grieve you know I don't sort of say okay now we need to talk about the event and now you need to just stop running it's sort of a you know okay let's just sit here let's just figure this out and it's yeah it's a very fascinating part of being human that we do we just and it just what you said there about how we show like these highlighted reels I don't know how many times people have said to me and especially recently actually because I did so much travel and now I've added North Carolina as well
00:08:16
Speaker
But they're like, I think you travel so much and gosh, to live that life.
00:08:19
Speaker
And I'm like, you have no clue.
00:08:22
Speaker
Just because I'm on this in this last three days, I think I or four days, whatever it was.
00:08:26
Speaker
I think I posted like a photo of a martini and I maybe posted a photo of a hotel room.
00:08:32
Speaker
But those were the two tiny moments of joy that was in the entire, you know, escapade.
00:08:39
Speaker
And yeah, it's just so fascinating.
00:08:43
Speaker
I really like that.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, you just said we do.
00:08:45
Speaker
We focus on these like summarized reels of good stuff and we don't actually get into the vulnerability.
00:08:51
Speaker
Why is that?
00:08:53
Speaker
I think it's again because lack of acceptance.
00:08:55
Speaker
You know, to me, yoga has been transformative, not physically.
00:09:00
Speaker
Oh, yes, physically, sure.
00:09:01
Speaker
But that could be other forms as well.
00:09:03
Speaker
I think yoga and Ayurveda and Ayurveda is a science of life have been mentally really transformative.
00:09:08
Speaker
Like they taught me to be more self-reliant.
00:09:11
Speaker
Sure, we all love external validation.
00:09:13
Speaker
Who doesn't want 50 people standing and telling them, oh, my God, I hear you.
00:09:17
Speaker
But that's not going to happen.
00:09:19
Speaker
And I think for a lot of people, they shut down.
00:09:22
Speaker
They don't talk about their grief.
00:09:23
Speaker
They'll either overwork, underperform, binge on something, develop destructive habits.
00:09:31
Speaker
And it's all because they're trying to go around grief instead of going through it.
Comparing Loss and Its Impact on Grief
00:09:35
Speaker
And it's something I'm realizing even in my clients.
00:09:37
Speaker
And what you said, Jennifer, is so profound at one of my events recently at a cemetery.
00:09:42
Speaker
You know, I did this whole grief workshop and this couple came up to me and they were like, you know, my loss, our loss wasn't as significant as yours.
00:09:51
Speaker
I said, who, what did you lose?
00:09:53
Speaker
It could be loss of health.
00:09:54
Speaker
It could be job loss.
00:09:56
Speaker
Any, you know, I mean, grief is the response to any kind of loss.
00:09:59
Speaker
It's like, you know, we lost a cat.
00:10:01
Speaker
I said, was the cat a family member to you?
00:10:04
Speaker
They were like, yes.
00:10:04
Speaker
I said, so your grief, we don't have to compare, but it's just as big as anyone else's.
00:10:09
Speaker
So in just hearing that, they were like, oh, no one has ever said that to us.
00:10:13
Speaker
So they never thought they had the permission to talk about the pet just the way someone had the permission to talk about a dead relative.
00:10:21
Speaker
Right.
00:10:21
Speaker
And there was another woman who was like she had just gotten laid off from a job that she'd worked at for, like, I think, I believe two decades, if I'm not butchering the dates.
00:10:30
Speaker
There was grief of that.
00:10:31
Speaker
Like, who am I outside of this work?
00:10:34
Speaker
So there's the loss of identity.
00:10:36
Speaker
I'm like, you hold your space for your grief.
00:10:39
Speaker
There's no comparison, you know, just because I lost my dad and my father-in-law doesn't mean my grief is bigger than yours.
00:10:45
Speaker
But they were like, no one has ever said that to them.
00:10:48
Speaker
And I think the way we are trained as society, everything is a competition.
00:10:52
Speaker
Everything is a comparison.
00:10:54
Speaker
Even in our case, you know, because both my parents are now gone, my husband still has his mom, people were trying to rationalize how her grief was more important than my husband's grief or his sister's grief.
00:11:05
Speaker
So I'm like, how are we comparing loss of a husband and loss of a father?
00:11:09
Speaker
They're both really monumental losses.
00:11:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:12
Speaker
And I think that's one of the reasons people just don't talk about this, this judgment, this criticism and this comparison.
The Mental Health Implications of Unresolved Grief
00:11:19
Speaker
Like grief is so heavy.
00:11:21
Speaker
Grief is never light.
00:11:22
Speaker
It weighs us down, you know, metaphorically, physically, emotionally in every which way.
00:11:27
Speaker
And then you have the burden of being told, well, sit there in a corner because your story doesn't matter.
00:11:33
Speaker
And, you know, you're relying when you're going through the grieving period.
00:11:36
Speaker
We all rely on people to get us.
00:11:39
Speaker
But when the same people tell you your story is not as important as someone else's, they choose to shut down.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah, no.
00:11:46
Speaker
And it's it's got it's so true.
Healing Through Yoga, Exercise, and Meditation
00:11:50
Speaker
Everything you're saying, like and even back to the yoga like comment you made, I I personally I love hot yoga and exactly what you said.
00:11:58
Speaker
And I think it can apply to a lot of forms of exercise, especially non-team and like solo sports like running or walking or whatever.
00:12:06
Speaker
There is this meditative state you can get into.
00:12:09
Speaker
That's the one thing you're focused on.
00:12:10
Speaker
And I have to say, and I actually have been really bad with it because I've been traveling and kind of sick a lot since Christmas.
00:12:15
Speaker
But it was my one hour that I would take out of the day where the phones would be off.
00:12:21
Speaker
I was inaccessible.
00:12:23
Speaker
And it was just me and myself, the mirror.
00:12:25
Speaker
You know, what everyone else was doing on either side of me really taught me about that.
00:12:28
Speaker
It taught me to kind of appreciate my body.
00:12:31
Speaker
To not be looking at the person beside me because the person beside me could be a gymnast or a ballerina or we just there was there's different strength.
00:12:40
Speaker
There's just and also even just for myself, like one day I'd go in, I'd be flexible as a pretzel.
00:12:45
Speaker
Then I couldn't touch my toes.
00:12:48
Speaker
And then there's the emotional releases that you find through yoga as well.
00:12:52
Speaker
But like, again, you could find that running or whatever.
00:12:54
Speaker
It's all these different.
00:12:56
Speaker
But exactly that, like the one of the things I am.
00:12:59
Speaker
So my TEDx talk was called Grief is Unique as Your Heartbeat.
00:13:03
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Because we all have a different heartbeat.
00:13:05
Speaker
I love that.
00:13:06
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:13:07
Speaker
And so, like, why would our grief be the same?
00:13:09
Speaker
Like two twins.
00:13:10
Speaker
you know, set of twins, they're not going to grieve a mom the same because there's a slightly different relationship.
00:13:15
Speaker
Even if it's just minuscule, it's still reflective through like, like, I don't know how many times I've said this, whether it's in writing, like, or, you know, on podcasts or whatever interviews I'm doing.
00:13:26
Speaker
You and I will never experience this moment, the moment that just went.
00:13:31
Speaker
We will never experience.
00:13:32
Speaker
No one in the world will ever experience that again.
00:13:35
Speaker
No one ever in this world will sit here having comfort with your breath and our drape, you know, with allergies and sitting here talking to you and having this conversation like it will.
00:13:45
Speaker
It's a moment in time that once it's gone, it's gone.
00:13:48
Speaker
It's just we're so unique.
00:13:50
Speaker
So why do we sort of think that grief should be boxed into these like little compartments?
00:13:55
Speaker
And OK, your pet loss, so you're not so big as child loss or losing a mom.
00:14:00
Speaker
That's different.
00:14:01
Speaker
Or even like in my case, which I talk about in the TED talk and in various different things since is how I got into this business was two of my best friends lost their siblings.
00:14:11
Speaker
Now, I say that actually one of them was she lost her cousin.
00:14:16
Speaker
But he was like a sibling to her.
00:14:18
Speaker
So when I say that to people, she lost her cousin, they kind of, it's not as bad.
00:14:23
Speaker
But he was like her brother because they were both only children.
00:14:25
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:14:26
Speaker
So absolutely.
00:14:27
Speaker
Why you're judging her.
00:14:30
Speaker
You know, it's fascinating how we prioritize who gets to have what, you know.
00:14:35
Speaker
Right.
00:14:35
Speaker
And who is to tell somebody else what the relationship should be?
00:14:38
Speaker
Whether it's to a cat, a dog, a cousin, a friend or whatever have you.
00:14:44
Speaker
Right.
00:14:45
Speaker
And people don't realize because very often the burnout happens because of unresolved grief.
00:14:50
Speaker
Diseases
Unexpected Surfaces of Grief and Public Vulnerability
00:14:51
Speaker
happen.
00:14:51
Speaker
Mental health challenges arise because of unresolved grief.
00:14:54
Speaker
Like we cannot go around grief.
00:14:56
Speaker
And even in our house, you know, both my husband and I were grieving.
00:15:00
Speaker
I'm an external process.
00:15:01
Speaker
I need to write.
00:15:02
Speaker
That's how I make sense of stuff.
00:15:03
Speaker
And I talk about things.
00:15:04
Speaker
And then one day, like I was very skeptical to go to India this time around.
00:15:09
Speaker
You know, when I first went to Singapore, that's where my brother is.
00:15:12
Speaker
So my heart hinged like, oh, my one sibling, the only, you know, the blood relation I have alive.
00:15:18
Speaker
Then I got landed in India.
00:15:19
Speaker
And when I was filling out the immigration form, there was the first time in 20 plus years I didn't use my dad's number or address.
00:15:28
Speaker
And that's when I'm like, that's how temperamental grief is.
00:15:31
Speaker
And I'm not a friar.
00:15:33
Speaker
And that's one of my problems.
00:15:34
Speaker
It's like I don't cry easily.
00:15:36
Speaker
But when I do, I hold space for it.
00:15:38
Speaker
I just broke down and people around me were looking at me and I'm like, that's okay.
00:15:42
Speaker
This isn't about what they think of me.
00:15:44
Speaker
This is about what I need to do.
00:15:46
Speaker
But because I allowed myself that space, like...
00:15:48
Speaker
holy crap this sucks this is so real like oh you're an adult orphan like that's the voice I heard in my head then it changed my relationship with India okay so is this is what is this to me now this is this the country of my ancestors do I go back here as a tourist all of these conversations of people don't allow themselves to go there they're like well just before I land I'll have a drink so I don't need to deal with this
00:16:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:15
Speaker
And it's also, it's interesting, like just what you said even there about breaking down in public and how, you know, immediately we kind of think what people would think of us.
00:16:23
Speaker
But I would say I've talked to, obviously, I would say thousands definitely, but maybe millions, I don't know, people about grief and bereavement and stuff like that.
00:16:32
Speaker
And I think a lot of them would say that sometimes, and oftentimes I would even say, a stranger can be more kind to you and your grief
00:16:42
Speaker
where you're at in your grief than your friends and your family because they're holding they have this image of you know who Jennifer is and what
The Pressure of Labels and Grieving Process
00:16:51
Speaker
she how strong she's supposed to be or not supposed to be and so there's a certain you know she's got to do this and like one of my best friends said to me quite recently what did he say that I'm the most
00:17:02
Speaker
I am.
00:17:03
Speaker
I persevere no matter what.
00:17:04
Speaker
He was like, you're you're just he said, no matter what, you just go through.
00:17:08
Speaker
And I thought, yeah, but there'll be a day when I won't be able to.
00:17:11
Speaker
And you need to be OK with that, Jennifer, too.
00:17:13
Speaker
You know, resilient.
00:17:16
Speaker
That was the exact word he used.
00:17:17
Speaker
I was resilient.
00:17:19
Speaker
And I just think like and I remember when we put our dog down and we were there for 16 years, I went to the local church and I'm while I was raised Catholic, I don't really go to the church very often.
00:17:31
Speaker
But I went to the church because it just felt like the place I needed to be.
00:17:34
Speaker
And the woman showed me such incredible kindness that I'd nearly get upset about it now because I was just sitting there sobbing my heart out.
00:17:42
Speaker
Whereas, you know, sometimes if you do that in the company of friends,
00:17:47
Speaker
They don't know what to do and they feel awkward and you then feel more worse because you're feeling, you know, their shame and their awkwardness and it becomes this whole thing.
00:17:56
Speaker
So, yeah, in some ways, like a stranger can show kindness where.
00:18:02
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:18:03
Speaker
And I think what you said resonated so deeply with me, much like you have.
00:18:08
Speaker
People refer to me as like the strong and resilient one.
00:18:11
Speaker
And, you know, don't use that against me.
00:18:13
Speaker
So my point with everyone has been like, stop labeling grievers.
00:18:17
Speaker
Stop labeling people, period.
00:18:18
Speaker
But especially those who are grieving.
00:18:20
Speaker
Because when you say that you're so strong, you're so resilient, I hear, okay, don't need to cry.
00:18:25
Speaker
Don't need to be vulnerable.
00:18:26
Speaker
We know you've got this.
00:18:28
Speaker
Don't shut down.
00:18:29
Speaker
And, you know, then you don't check in on people.
00:18:31
Speaker
And then they're also the absolutionists, right?
00:18:33
Speaker
They'll check in one stick.
00:18:35
Speaker
I checked in on somebody who was grieving.
00:18:37
Speaker
So it becomes a plethora of reasons why people don't ever, you know, really heal on a cellular level.
00:18:44
Speaker
See, I feel like it never goes away.
00:18:47
Speaker
Someone you've loved and is gone, whether it's a pet or a person or end of a friendship or end of a marriage, like you're going to feel that loss.
00:18:55
Speaker
But the intensity does decrease over a period of time.
00:18:59
Speaker
But how much it decreases and how deeply the healing...
00:19:02
Speaker
healing happens how deep the healing happens it depends on the opportunity someone has had to work on their own breathing and healing like i have a friend who was saying to me that you know her dad passed away and there was a birthday on her in-law side and
00:19:18
Speaker
couple of months later or it was around her dad's birthday that there was a celebration and she's like no one really cares like because then this person is gone yes we've cried we've offered flowers you know we'll go to the cemetery and all of that stuff but uh offer flowers but there's an alive person so let's just go celebrate them and she's like they're two equally important
00:19:37
Speaker
situations I am not saying I won't celebrate but why can't you give me the space to mourn so also there is this timeline that people add which I think is so frustrating you know if someone is really in that bad of a situation get mental health out but sometimes it's okay to just it'll take time there will be days where you're just in your pajamas and you know curled up like a prawn on the floor for lack of a better description and that's how grief can feel
00:20:03
Speaker
But people aren't given the permission.
00:20:05
Speaker
It's like, yeah, now that's done.
00:20:07
Speaker
But when I was in India, somebody said that to me, you know, losing your parents' circle of life.
00:20:11
Speaker
And I'm thinking, how privileged to be you.
00:20:14
Speaker
Everyone in your family is alive and you can say that to me.
00:20:17
Speaker
And I was like, you know, I never thought in my 40s I'd be an
Insensitive Comments and Growing Awareness
00:20:20
Speaker
adult orphan.
00:20:20
Speaker
I was just being vulnerable.
00:20:21
Speaker
And they were like,
00:20:22
Speaker
It happens all the time.
00:20:24
Speaker
I'm like, I don't think it happens all the time.
00:20:26
Speaker
It's sad if it's happened to anyone.
00:20:29
Speaker
But the point is, even if you are, I know this woman in my gym who's in her 60s and she lost her mom when she turned 101.
00:20:36
Speaker
And even then, I always remind her, like, so what?
00:20:38
Speaker
She was still your mom.
00:20:40
Speaker
It doesn't matter how old you are or how old she was.
00:20:43
Speaker
And I think I wish people had a little bit more empathy.
00:20:46
Speaker
It's like instead of trying to say, let's wrap up this conversation because I'm uncomfortable.
00:20:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:51
Speaker
And you know what?
00:20:52
Speaker
It is very fascinating as well, because being in this space and working in the death space in general, and it is evolving, right?
00:21:01
Speaker
And there's a lot more young people coming into it and people are getting more vocal about it and writing about it and things like that.
00:21:10
Speaker
And it is I find it fascinating to watch, though, because I do think there's different sides to it.
00:21:16
Speaker
So, for example, we're talking about it more.
00:21:19
Speaker
And so people are kind of airing the well, I hate when somebody says everything happens for a reason or, you know, there's certain terms that people are like, never say that to me, you know, never say that.
00:21:30
Speaker
And people are kind of burning up the stage.
00:21:32
Speaker
We say that.
00:21:33
Speaker
And I have to say, I'm a bit on the other side where I'm like, I understand.
00:21:38
Speaker
I absolutely understand the frustration when somebody says something that hurts you when you're grieving.
00:21:44
Speaker
I understand
Guiding Support Through Communication and Self-Love
00:21:45
Speaker
that.
00:21:45
Speaker
But I do also feel as a society, we we we have to look after ourselves.
00:21:52
Speaker
Right.
00:21:52
Speaker
Like.
00:21:53
Speaker
At the end of the day, it comes down to self-love.
00:21:55
Speaker
Like, there's nobody going to love you or take care of you better than you can take care of yourself.
00:22:00
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:22:01
Speaker
In that, we're responsible for also communicating that this is what I need for my grief.
00:22:05
Speaker
Like, for example, you might be somebody who is an angry griever and just needs to vent, right, once a day or whenever it might be.
00:22:12
Speaker
I might be somebody who...
00:22:14
Speaker
cries into this pillow or whatever.
00:22:16
Speaker
Like we're all totally different human beings.
00:22:19
Speaker
And I just feel like, you know, like somebody said, actually, I think it was commented on something on Instagram and my company's Instagram page where it was like, I can't stand when people say passed on or passed away.
00:22:31
Speaker
They're dead.
00:22:31
Speaker
They're just dead.
00:22:33
Speaker
I was like, yeah, but Jennifer, like if my mum dies or when my mum dies, like I think I think using the I understand where that person is coming from.
00:22:42
Speaker
But I feel like if she turns around and says your mum's dead, that's a brutal word.
00:22:47
Speaker
I feel like I would be a bit sort of like, oh, my God, like I know she is.
00:22:51
Speaker
But like the word.
00:22:52
Speaker
So we're just my point was I understand that that's your word.
00:22:57
Speaker
you don't like that, that doesn't mean that the world has to get on board with what you agree.
00:23:02
Speaker
So, for example, like, and, you know, I'm saying this, I guess, because it's one of my everything happens for a reason.
00:23:08
Speaker
That is a really hard statement.
00:23:10
Speaker
And I would never say to somebody who has just lost a person.
00:23:13
Speaker
I wouldn't.
00:23:13
Speaker
But I say it a lot about things that happen in my own life.
00:23:16
Speaker
Like I have...
00:23:18
Speaker
you know, I've missed a train or a plane has delayed something.
00:23:22
Speaker
And I'm like, everything happens for a reason, Jen.
00:23:24
Speaker
You're meant to meet somebody at the airport who you weren't going to or blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:23:29
Speaker
It's just that helps me sort of look at things positively and sort of move through, you know, put one foot in front of the other.
00:23:35
Speaker
I would never say to somebody who lost somebody.
00:23:38
Speaker
The point is we all deal with things differently.
00:23:40
Speaker
And I do think it's our responsibility as a human being, as in ourselves, to as much
Honoring Deceased Loved Ones
00:23:46
Speaker
as we can.
00:23:46
Speaker
And this is a big ask of somebody who's grieving, but as much as possible to communicate to your loved ones.
00:23:52
Speaker
This is what I need from you.
00:23:54
Speaker
I just I would rather if you didn't say things like.
00:23:57
Speaker
this and and you know when I talk about mom it's okay like please don't get all uncomfortable like I really want to just talk about her and let's share those stories and actually as a celebrant um when I'm talking when I'm giving a service and the family will always okay this but when I'm giving a service a lot of times at the very very end and families are like oh my god thank you so much for for saying that the very very end I'll say you know
00:24:21
Speaker
They're not always in this exact way, but I'll say, you know, there's a saying that they say we die twice, once when we leave our physical bodies and the second time when somebody says our name for the last time.
00:24:31
Speaker
So I urge you today to continue to talk about person and to continue for months, weeks, years.
00:24:38
Speaker
The family will appreciate it.
00:24:40
Speaker
The person has just disappeared.
00:24:42
Speaker
They want to hear the memories and all those gorgeous things that the person, you know, the legacy they've left.
00:24:47
Speaker
And because it is, we got to get, you don't want to, I don't want to upset you by talking about your parents, you know, it's like,
00:24:54
Speaker
I don't upset her.
00:24:55
Speaker
Like, I really like her.
00:24:56
Speaker
And like, you know, but you won't really talk about it.
00:24:59
Speaker
And it's something I recommend in my book, The Loss That Binds Us.
00:25:02
Speaker
It's one of the ways to keep their memory of their many ways, right?
00:25:04
Speaker
You know, cook their favorite foods.
00:25:06
Speaker
Like I, you know, my dad being dad, like Old Spice.
00:25:10
Speaker
My mom loved Jasmine, Mogras.
00:25:12
Speaker
Those scents are in my home office, right?
00:25:14
Speaker
Created a little altar next to my desk.
00:25:17
Speaker
Celebrating their birthdays, anniversaries, donating to their favorite causes.
00:25:21
Speaker
But also most importantly,
00:25:23
Speaker
talking about them, sending their name, you know, keeping their essence alive.
00:25:28
Speaker
In fact, I have a very dear friend and I really appreciate it.
00:25:31
Speaker
I was telling her I'm going to borrow her words for when somebody else is in that situation.
00:25:36
Speaker
She was like, you know, I haven't and I know that she's not lost her parents and knock on wood.
00:25:41
Speaker
She's like, I've known her for 30 years and she's like, you know, we've kind of grown up together.
00:25:45
Speaker
It just I don't know what to say.
00:25:48
Speaker
I want to be.
00:25:49
Speaker
And I was like, you know, you are there for me.
00:25:51
Speaker
And sometimes silence is a beautiful form of support.
00:25:54
Speaker
So for anyone who is listening in, sometimes just ask the person because a griever is dealing with so much heaviness.
00:25:59
Speaker
They might.
00:26:00
Speaker
I love Jennifer's suggestion that as grievers, we need to communicate.
00:26:04
Speaker
But sometimes there's just so much going on.
00:26:07
Speaker
We have these expectations which we don't communicate.
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:10
Speaker
But when someone comes in and says, what can I do?
00:26:12
Speaker
So saying this is what you might be feeling or this is what you should do or wrap it up and move on.
00:26:17
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:26:18
Speaker
What can I do?
00:26:20
Speaker
And I've told you enough people will just say, just knowing that you're there makes me feel
00:26:25
Speaker
supported or loved or you know visible or seen when you're grieving because grieving can be grief is so heavy but I think grieving is so light because it's very isolating.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah yes I don't disagree and you know what I love that and I actually my next question was to talk about the tips from your book and just like from my own little random personal experience and I wasn't in the business at all at the time but like that my best friend who lost her cousin who was like a brother to her
00:26:55
Speaker
You know, when he died and she rang me and told me, I dropped everything and I went down.
00:27:00
Speaker
It was down the country in Ireland.
00:27:01
Speaker
I went down.
00:27:02
Speaker
But I brought... I just thought of, again, okay, what can I do?
00:27:07
Speaker
What can I do to help?
00:27:08
Speaker
And that's, I guess, that's nearly what I was trying to get across there is most people aren't saying, oh, everything happens for a reason or whatever.
00:27:16
Speaker
To hurt you, they're trying to make you feel better.
00:27:19
Speaker
And we, as grievers, do also... And look, that is a huge ask, but you...
00:27:24
Speaker
Most people are not trying to hurt you.
00:27:26
Speaker
They're trying.
00:27:27
Speaker
They just they're trying.
00:27:28
Speaker
And so there's a there's also a thing of a space that we need to forgive and sort of have that hold that space a bit for them.
00:27:36
Speaker
That, OK, this person said the worst thing they could to me.
00:27:40
Speaker
But I know they didn't mean it like a dagger to the heart, like it came, you know, it came out.
00:27:44
Speaker
But I brought my best friend, David.
00:27:47
Speaker
We laugh about it still to this day.
00:27:49
Speaker
I did a little care package for her.
00:27:51
Speaker
I went to the local store.
00:27:52
Speaker
I bought her some panties.
00:27:54
Speaker
I bought her, like, she'll hate me saying this, but I bought her that.
00:27:57
Speaker
I bought her some vitamin C soluble things.
00:28:00
Speaker
I bought her some chocolate.
00:28:02
Speaker
I bought her all these just tiny little things.
00:28:04
Speaker
Because I knew she had dropped everything and raced to his side down the country.
00:28:09
Speaker
So, and when I got down and gave it to her, she was like, Gem, oh my God, thank you so much.
00:28:12
Speaker
Like, I didn't, I didn't pack a thing.
00:28:15
Speaker
She was like, it was everything I needed.
00:28:17
Speaker
And she was like, because I know her so well.
00:28:19
Speaker
And I just, I thought, well, she would have dropped everything to be with him.
00:28:23
Speaker
So I'm sure she probably didn't bring a change of, you know,
00:28:28
Speaker
That's amazing.
00:28:29
Speaker
But then, and I hold my hand up with this and I've talked about it before, but then in the same breath, that same best friend who I do know so well, her cousin, I was also friends with, right?
00:28:41
Speaker
And I, on social media, made a comment about how his light would always shine.
00:28:47
Speaker
It was something like that.
00:28:48
Speaker
And it was something trivial, but it was something like that where I was just putting it on his page or whatever.
00:28:54
Speaker
She didn't talk to me for three months.
00:28:56
Speaker
I was broken hearted.
00:28:57
Speaker
I didn't know what had happened.
00:28:59
Speaker
I didn't know if it was just because she was grieving or whatever.
00:29:02
Speaker
And it took her seeing a therapist to actually come back to me.
00:29:07
Speaker
And I did kept trying to reach out or whatever.
00:29:09
Speaker
And she said, because she's atheist, insulted her.
00:29:13
Speaker
And she thought, how could my best friend do this to me?
00:29:18
Speaker
How could how could Jennifer be so cruel to me when she knows that I don't believe he's his light is still going or whatever?
00:29:27
Speaker
But what she said, she said it took her going to therapy to realize.
00:29:30
Speaker
But that was how I was dealing with it because I believe his light is still going.
00:29:35
Speaker
I forgot.
00:29:36
Speaker
She said in my grief, I forgot that you were also grieving.
00:29:39
Speaker
You weren't just my best friend supporting me.
00:29:41
Speaker
You were grieving his loss, too.
00:29:43
Speaker
And it was just a really interesting conversation for us to come together and have.
00:29:47
Speaker
Because you do, you have all these people who are around you and have different relationships with the different people.
00:29:52
Speaker
So and it's a learning curve.
00:29:54
Speaker
I mean, here was I didn't certainly didn't mean to hurt her in any way.
00:29:58
Speaker
Right.
00:29:59
Speaker
So let's talk a bit more about the tips, because I loved that, like celebrating the person, you know, their birthdays.
Self-Reliance and Managing Expectations During Grief
00:30:05
Speaker
And I love that sense of the foods like what would be your, I guess, maybe top five from the book.
00:30:11
Speaker
So top five was to keep their essence alive.
00:30:13
Speaker
So talk about them.
00:30:14
Speaker
And I'm not saying this in a guru sort of way to go crazy or whatever, but like I'll give you an example.
00:30:21
Speaker
I had tickets booked to go to India for my dad's birthday, but he suddenly died three months prior to that.
00:30:26
Speaker
So we did a little birthday party at home.
00:30:28
Speaker
And my aunt, his sister, wore a new sari.
00:30:31
Speaker
And she said, you know, he got this for my anniversary and they didn't get to see me wear this.
00:30:36
Speaker
So I'm like, that's his picture at the altar.
00:30:39
Speaker
Stand in front of it.
00:30:40
Speaker
And I'm like, this is a crazy idea now if you start chasing his picture and quit on life.
00:30:44
Speaker
But if in that moment, just let him know that, hey, I want the sari.
00:30:48
Speaker
Like, what do you think of it?
00:30:50
Speaker
I said, you know what?
00:30:51
Speaker
It just makes you feel connected.
00:30:52
Speaker
Don't get too cerebral about the process.
00:30:54
Speaker
So connect the way like I look for mystical signs.
00:30:57
Speaker
If there's a butterfly or a pigeon or, you know, lights flickering.
00:31:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:01
Speaker
People I'll have people say, but like, how can you prove?
00:31:04
Speaker
I said, how can you prove otherwise either?
00:31:06
Speaker
If this brings me solace, like I say, I'm not quitting on life and chasing pigeons through Central Park.
00:31:12
Speaker
Right.
00:31:14
Speaker
So find your ways of what makes you feel connected to like, oh, they're trying to reach out.
00:31:19
Speaker
Cooking their favorite foods can be incredible.
00:31:21
Speaker
Even like I said, you know, mogra or Indian jasmine and old spice.
00:31:24
Speaker
Like I keep them.
00:31:25
Speaker
So and I was very close to my father.
00:31:27
Speaker
So if it's going to be a tough day at work or if it's been a tough day, I'll dab a little around my wrist.
00:31:32
Speaker
I'm like, I just feel he's there.
00:31:34
Speaker
And I wasn't the child who would reach out and say, I have a problem.
00:31:36
Speaker
I've been very self-reliant.
00:31:38
Speaker
But now because they're gone, I just feel, oh, there's no one there.
00:31:43
Speaker
And again, don't put that pressure on your partner.
00:31:46
Speaker
That'll be my follow-up suggestion.
00:31:48
Speaker
In our case, it was an extreme situation where both me and my husband had lost a dad each.
00:31:52
Speaker
But even otherwise, you know, your partner has other responsibilities too.
00:31:56
Speaker
Yes, they have one towards you.
00:31:58
Speaker
But their family as well, their sibling, their parents, all of that.
00:32:02
Speaker
So...
00:32:03
Speaker
Becoming self-reliant is extremely important.
00:32:05
Speaker
And that would look like different things to different people and it doesn't happen overnight.
00:32:10
Speaker
But like relying more on yourself.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:12
Speaker
Also, expectations can be so evil.
00:32:15
Speaker
And I've dealt with that.
00:32:17
Speaker
I have a tendency to overextend myself.
00:32:20
Speaker
So when I was dealing with my grief, I expected that.
00:32:23
Speaker
Nothing materialistic, only emotional.
00:32:25
Speaker
I'm the kind of person who'll remember my friend's mom's death anniversary, her favorite color, her favorite foods.
00:32:31
Speaker
And I'll then send out a group message and have everyone wear her favorite color, take a selfie, make a collage, cook their favorite food.
00:32:38
Speaker
So when I was dealing with my grief, I had those expectations.
00:32:41
Speaker
And in reflection, I realized no one asked me to do that.
00:32:46
Speaker
If that's my nature, I need to own it.
00:32:48
Speaker
And then maybe take a few steps back because it is exhausting to remember.
00:32:53
Speaker
Right.
00:32:53
Speaker
But then also so check in.
00:32:55
Speaker
Like Jennifer, I loved your point.
00:32:56
Speaker
Like people are trying to be nice.
00:32:58
Speaker
Everyone tries to show up in different ways.
00:33:00
Speaker
People show support in different ways.
00:33:02
Speaker
So, you know, don't be rigid about this is what support looks like because when we push our loved ones away.
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:09
Speaker
Because, you know, no one can match up to your expectations and even you don't know what your expectations are.
00:33:12
Speaker
They all appear.
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah, that is, that's absolutely brilliant.
00:33:18
Speaker
And actually a wonderful kind of bringing the conversation to a close because I actually, again, the 10 hour drive in the car, we obviously had to discuss, but we, one of the things I learned really, really young when I was in my twenties, actually, in living in Washington, D.C.,
00:33:37
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I had super high expectations for friends because I am a very good friend and I am that friend who shows up, texts on birthdays, texts on death adversaries,
Conclusion: Gratitude and Supporting Through Shweta's Book
00:33:49
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you know, all of the things I like have calendar reminders.
00:33:52
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I'm just that person.
00:33:55
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But not everybody is.
00:33:56
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And you can't have those expectations exactly as you said.
00:33:59
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And so I learned this quote and I only repeated it to my friend here because that's exactly what he was kind of going through this struggle.
00:34:06
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And I said, listen, just because somebody doesn't love you the way you love them doesn't mean they don't love you with all that they have.
00:34:15
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And I think if you like you really have to kind of sit down and look at that or repeat it a few times before you really go, wow.
00:34:23
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So just because somebody doesn't show up the way you want them to show up doesn't mean they're not showing up with all that they have in that moment.
00:34:31
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Exactly.
00:34:32
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And that's all you can ask from people.
00:34:35
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You know, I absolutely agree.
00:34:36
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I think it's so much better for your own mental peace.
00:34:39
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Yeah.
00:34:39
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And it's so much better.
00:34:40
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And it's it's a lesson we learn.
00:34:42
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And like, at least in my case, I was like, maybe I was overdoing it.
00:34:45
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And that's my nature.
00:34:46
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Bravo.
00:34:47
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But, you know, it's scaled back because if there are expectations, that's not healthy either.
00:34:52
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Like being OK to the idea of self-growth.
00:34:56
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That's brought upon by grief.
00:34:58
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Yeah.
00:34:59
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Yes, that's it.
00:35:00
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It's absolutely amazing.
00:35:01
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Well, listen, thank you so much.
00:35:03
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This was super inspirational and a wonderful episode to record after such an arduous journey, honestly.
00:35:11
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I feel full of the love again, which is great.
00:35:14
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But thank you so much.
00:35:15
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Everybody, please go out and purchase the book and maybe show us, do another show and tell there.
00:35:20
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It's an incredible book.
00:35:22
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And so go ahead and buy it.
00:35:24
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And we'll connect you.
00:35:26
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And we'll leave all the links and everything for people down below this video and on the podcast in the description.
00:35:31
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And just thank you so much for joining us.
00:35:34
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Thank you for having me, Jennifer.
00:35:35
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And to everyone who's tuning in, I wish you health, happiness and healing.