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DLC 9. Ranking the Legend of Zelda Games! featuring James Soler
33 Plays2 months ago
Join Sean and our special guest James discuss one of the most prolific Nintendo IP of all time: The Legend of Zelda!
Follow us on X/Twitter
James: www.x.com/james_soler
Podcast - http://www.x.com/gameoverplastic
Hodge - www.x.com/Hodgebaba57
Midnight- http://www.x.com/midnightdt
Sean- http://www.x.com/seanlikestobake
Video: https://youtu.be/KIdfXLt0bUs
Video and Audio edited by: Midnight
Intro and Graphics by: Hodge
Intro music credits: Epic Cinematic Trailer | ELITE by Alex-Productions | https://onsound.eu/
Music promoted by https://www.chosic.com/free-music/all/
Creative Commons CC BY 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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Transcript
Introduction and Assassin's Creed Shadows Discussion
00:00:29
Speaker
All right. Good day, sweet world. Welcome to a very special DLC episode of games over plastic. Uh, and this very special episode I'm joined by one of the best YouTubers on YouTube right now. Um, his name is James. James, how are you doing? I'm doing well. You might be giving me a little bit too much credit there.
00:00:53
Speaker
now Dude you make some great videos like I love watching your videos anytime you drop them. I'm always watching them. It's really good No, you you do a great job. Oh, that's very nice of you Glad I'm glad someone out there is watching It's uh, I don't know if you caught by my two most recent videos that I put up ah it was Reasons Assassin's Creed shadows might be really good and then another one that was a reason some reasons Assassin's Creed shadows might be really bad and And the good one is getting, people are just just dumping all over it. like It's getting hate-bombed, and then nobody's watching the reasons it might be bad. That's what happens. you know It's okay though. people like People like to complain. It's funny, people will complain about Assassin's Creed, but it will keep selling.
00:01:37
Speaker
Yeah, I'll be there. I'm sure midnight will be there. So yeah. yeah i've been that enough ki me yeah he be He's convinced this game of the year just like veil guard, but we don't talk about that. But yeah, this is a like I said, this is a very special DLC episode. We're coming into to you in in an off week.
00:01:54
Speaker
um And in this very special episode, we're going to be discussing Legend of Zelda.
Favorite Zelda Games Discussion
00:02:00
Speaker
Specifically, we're going to be tiering the mainline Zelda games here, which I mean, if you look at the Zelda timeline, you know, Nintendo's crazy timeline theory with Zelda, all the games are mainline games, kind of like Kingdom Hearts. You can't mix anything. um But before we do get started, I just want to ask you, what is your favorite Legend of Zelda game overall? What your favorite one? if you had a pick one If I had to pick one right now, it would be probably Ocarina of Time, just because I just actually replayed it a couple days ago. um i was I was working on a video and I i needed a little bit of Ocarina of Time footage, and so I fired it up on Nintendo Switch Online. And so I recorded me playing just through the Great Deku Tree, and I had such a great time that I just went ahead and played the rest of the game.
00:02:53
Speaker
Nothing wrong with that. yeah it So at any given time, the Zelda game that I played most recently is probably going to be my favorite one. Hey, there you go. ah Hodge would definitely agree with you. He loves Ocarina. So um That's awesome. That's good. My favorite is A Link to the Past. I love A Link to the Past so much. But um that's my favorite top down Zelda. You know, I hate okay everyone goes like to everyone goes like, oh, it's 2D Zelda. It's like it's not really. I mean, it's top down. That's what right. Because you still have like kind of like a 3D plane. But um for my favorite 3D Zelda is Wind Waker. I adore Wind Waker. Like, OK, my gosh, it's been a while since I played Wind Waker. I have it on Wii U. I've been hoping they were going to bring it to Switch, which is why
Zelda Games Tier Ranking Process
00:03:33
Speaker
I've been hesitant to replay it.
00:03:34
Speaker
But um I just finished replaying Metroid Prime 3 on my Wii U So my Wii U probably needs a little bit more love so I might fire up Wind Waker on there I remember playing I remember getting that at the launch day for Wii U at the Wind Waker HD and oh my gosh that the quality of life improvements they made to that game make it even better. Like I love the GameCube version, but there's like it's so hard to go back and play the game. You've won now. I remember they added a bunch of quality of life improvements to the Wii U one as specifically at the end of the game when you have to go and find the actual oh gosh.
F Tier: CDI Zelda Games
00:04:12
Speaker
If you all know I guess I don't know if I want to say what it is if we're gonna try to avoid like miles You just have to there's a there's a quest you have to do and there's a lot of treasure you have to get and on the Gamecube one it was very tedious Yeah, and they we you won. They made it so much easier and the swift sail made sailing so much, man Yeah But a quick thing about win maker I remember I really wanted it. It was Christmas 2003. I really, really wanted it. And mom every Christmas, my family, we always growing up, we always adopted a family and the got them gifts. And my mom, the kid had a GameCube that like one of the boys in the family, my mom bought him Wind Waker. And I remember just sitting there staring at it, being like,
00:04:54
Speaker
It's like, I hate this kid. How do I don't have this game? And then I opened it on Christmas, you know, like two weeks later now. OK.
D Tier: Triforce Heroes Critique
00:05:02
Speaker
Yeah, Wind Waker, very special to me. So it was the winter pass, though. But um yeah, you ready to get into like the tearing of the games? Of course I did. I had a couple of questions that I was going to ask you. I should have asked you before we started recording, but I forgot. Are you wanting do you want to just go um for like chronological order and just kind of place them in or do you want to kind of go from like what we think would be the bottom kind of to the top of the tier list or I was thinking you have in mind. I was thinking we go to the bottom to the top. Okay. Start with the F tier, go all the way up to the S tier. Okay. And then.
00:05:38
Speaker
As far as like remakes and rereleases, do you want to? I don't think any of those are really too crazy to where they would be in a different spot from their like main game. Like, I don't think like the switch links awakening and links awakening DX and the original link. So I think we can just lump them all. Yeah, I was including them all together. So like, yeah, links awakening and links awakening DX looks like getting remake on switch. I was going to include them together. Same thing with like Ocarina 3D and Ocarina like And 64 master. OK. All that. Yeah. Yeah. That's a little easier. Mm hmm. And ah I don't I don't think any of the remakes get too crazy where they would like make or break on like a tier placement or anything. Oh,
C Tier: Skyward Sword and Zelda II
00:06:23
Speaker
no, it's just it's just quality of life stuff. quality Right. um All right.
00:06:28
Speaker
ready to go yeah here we go let's start with the bottom tier the f tier is all i'm calling it the f tier and i think we can agree there's probably only um there's only one thing okay there's only a couple that i think would belong down there and there are ones that i haven't played yes and i have played them and they are Bitterly atrocious and these are the three that the trilogy of the CDI games Back on back when Nintendo some for some godforsaken reason Let the CDI bill up CDI whatever it's called produce these three games and that is link the faces of evil Zelda the wand of Gamelon and Zelda's adventure
00:07:14
Speaker
These were abysmal games like absolutely awful and I think we all know like the meme and like the the YouTube video, just like the the the terrible voice acting, the Harley gameplay, the awful art. I've seen I think I've seen like clips from it and stuff and it looks pretty terrible and so bad. I probably think it's good that they left a lot of those games to die and that they they don't even acknowledge them or anything. that It's like we've all pretty much collectively agreed as society that like that didn't really happen. Like it was just a bad dream.
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, they don't even include them in the timeline, which is good. So I think we can we can get that right out of the way. Yeah. All right. Let's move up. Let's move on to the the D tier. And I don't know. Did you have any games in the D tier? I had one. I didn't really put mine in like actual tiers. I made a list of what they were and I kind of know how I feel about all of them.
00:08:15
Speaker
um
00:08:18
Speaker
D tier. I'm going to throw one out. I'm going to throw one out and see how you see. All right. Try four zero. OK, that's a good one. That's the one. That's definitely one that I would have put there. And then.
00:08:32
Speaker
Let's let's talk about Triforce Heroes first. OK, so the reason why I put Triforce Heroes here is because I am a we'll get to this later, but I'm a huge fan of the four swords adventure game.
00:08:45
Speaker
on GameCube. Like I know that game. like the one eight i When I saw Triforce Heroes, OK, first I'm like, oh, my gosh, they're remaking for towards Adventures for 3DS. And then, wait, you can only play as three players. Wait, these dungeons are.
B Tier: Spirit Tracks and Four Swords Adventures
00:09:03
Speaker
Horrible, they're terribly designed. um It's just I really hated the dungeon design. I hated the three player aspect. Like, why didn't they just make it four player? That's the weirdest aspect of it. You can, I think, play it solo. I tried to play most of it solo, but you're like switching between the different link. Like, it's not fun. The the playing one player isn't as seamless as it is in four sword adventures. OK. Which I think I think to other people. Yeah.
00:09:35
Speaker
but like I remember sitting there playing that game it was I was in college of playing with two friends meaning like we're not having fun right now but like we're already halfway through we gotta keep going and like but we got to the end of the game and we're just like why did we even like it's so dumb It's essentially like the dungeon design. I know I hate some money on us. We had to play over in college. I did not like the dungeon design at all. I thought the whole I didn't like the whole gimmick of the three Zellows running around. I mean three links running around. Right. And
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I agree completely. I really don't remember much because I want to say probably right. I don't know if I got it right when it came out, but or like a little bit after, um but I got it when I was in college and I played a little bit on my 3DS and I was like, you know what, this is not the game for me. And I don't think. I don't even know how much of it I actually played, but I know that I tried to play it by myself and it wasn't very good.
00:10:38
Speaker
And yeah, I think for me, go Zelda kind of is supposed to be a single player thing that like. It's like I would never want like a Zelda like live service game or anything either that.
00:10:53
Speaker
And in my mind, just the idea that they tried to make a solely multiplayer focused game kind of guarantees this one towards the bottom of the list for me.
00:11:07
Speaker
There
A Tier Debate: Breath of the Wild vs. Echoes of Wisdom
00:11:08
Speaker
is one more that I had on here that I think could, this ah this one, a lot of people don't even consider this one a mainline game. um You might already know what it is just from me saying that, but it's just Four Swords, not Four Swords Adventures. All right, so that was gonna be my the Four Swords game on Game Boy Advance that came with- Yes. Yeah, so they re-released a single player version of it that was on, it was exclusive to the DSi.
00:11:38
Speaker
not even Not even regular DS, just DSI. um And that one is now actually playable on Nintendo Switch Online on the Game Boy Advance Collection, and I played it it's It's just not, it's really just not, like all of my issues that I have with Triforce Heroes, the exact same things are there for Four Swords. Like Four Swords is a little bit shorter. I think I played it with um i played it with my wife and I think we got through it in probably like three hours. So it's not that bad, but it just feels like an afterthought.
00:12:16
Speaker
Yeah, I remember when it came out on Game Boy Advance, I remember playing it with like three other friends. we We had the link cables and we were playing and we were just like, we were very whelmed because we were like, I'm like, I'd much rather just be playing A Link to the Past, which is like on the cartridge. Right. But like I said, I do really enjoy Four Swords Adventure. Like I love Four Swords Adventure and I think that's a huge upgrade over regular Four Swords.
00:12:38
Speaker
Are you are you comfortable putting four swords in the what tier? We are deep. Yeah, t tear I'm comfortable putting four swords there. yeah Okay. The original force four swords. And then we had a Triforce heroes on there. I don't think I have anything else that I would want in the D tier. Nothing else is really jumping out to me. No, nothing for me either. Once we get to like the B, the A and the S tier, that's when we're going to really. Yeah, I might have a couple for the C tier.
00:13:03
Speaker
But I have one for the C tier. Just one? I got two actually. I got two or three. Okay. Depending. Depending on how the composition goes. All right. Ready for the
S Tier Celebration: Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past
00:13:14
Speaker
C tier? Yes. All right. I'm going to nominate for the C tier. Skyward Sword. Oh, hell yeah. Put it in there. There you go.
00:13:24
Speaker
um
00:13:27
Speaker
Ultimately, I like the story aspects of Skyward Sword. I think the narrative of Skyward Sword is awesome. I think the whole concept of like being in the sky, it's like essentially like creating the world of Zelda. Yeah. I love all that. But the story and the lore is so great. Yeah. But the execution of the gameplay is so it's just horrific. It is. but By the time it came out, I was so over like the motion controls in the Wii, but I still played it.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I just, and it's so slow to start. Everyone complains about Twilight Princess opening. Gosh, go play Skyward Sword. That opening is like snail's pace. Yeah. Like absolute snail's pace. And then I just didn't like the, I hated the motion control. I absolutely hated it. That, that freaking bug thing you had to like pull out and like move with your WeMo. that The beetle, is a the beetle, that you which is also coincidentally the worst weapon, the item in Smash Bros.
00:14:22
Speaker
Oh, my gosh, you're so right. And I think actually I think the bellows, which are also pretty bad in Smash Bros, are also from Skyrim Sword. Yeah. um There wasn't a lot of dungeons either. That was like one of the other thing. I mean, the dungeons were I did like some of the dungeons, but like you had to retread the areas so much. yeah like I didn't feel like the games you go back. I didn't like that you kind of had to go back to the same.
00:14:52
Speaker
it um being able to from going from Skyloft down onto the surface and only being able to access through certain points made it it the the different areas didn't feel like they were connected. And it didn't feel like it was one world. It just felt like it was three separate areas. And it was, it got annoying when you were in like the desert area. And then you realize like, Oh, you need this from the forest section. And it, if I remember correctly, you couldn't just
00:15:23
Speaker
go straight from the desert to the forest. You got to like go back up the sky loft and then go back down and then do the whole free falling thing again. It was almost like it was almost like playing like you're playing Mario 64 where you're in a level. You have to go back out to the hub world. and Yeah. and the painting Yeah.
00:15:42
Speaker
um Another thing that I think is worth bringing up here. I think seeing the creation of the Master Sword and kind of seeing where the, that might be a spoiler. We might want to get get rid of that, but, um, I think seeing that is really cool. And I think that seeing where a lot of like the, our traditional Zelda stuff, what we, what we've come to know about Zelda games, like the green tunic and all that stuff. Um, I think it's seeing a lot of that stuff is really interesting, but I feel like the combat.
00:16:11
Speaker
and forcing you to use the motion controls for combat just bogs it down so much. Did you try to play this game when they re-released it on Switch? I did. It's not better. It's you know it's it's not better. It's I was like, come on, guys, you couldn't just like I know it's so difficult to port this game without motion controls to so much of it was built off that I'm like, yeah, it's got to be a way to do it. It has to be a way. um Recently, um Gene Park did an interview with Agee Anuma and he said that
00:16:46
Speaker
He always designed the mechanics for Zelda games before, like the story or anything else. yeah And you can really feel that in Skyward Sword. Yeah. And not in a not in a good way. Not in a good way. Maybe one day we'll get the official re-re-release full control of support. Just no motion. I was. Yeah, I was much more. I was OK with the. Well, we don't need. we'll Well, we'll talk about that game later.
00:17:14
Speaker
um And another thing, sorry if you feel like we're spending too long on this one game, ah Skyward Sword, also because the combat is, you can't really take on multiple enemies at a time because you have to kind of like go over here and then switch over and like do all this stuff. It slows down the combat a lot to make it a lot less exciting. And when I was replaying it on Switch, I realized that there's really not a lot of combat in the game.
00:17:42
Speaker
No, I also rely much
Wind Waker Analysis and S Tier Placement
00:17:44
Speaker
more it relies much heavier on the puzzle aspect of just solving things without Yeah Which I think I think if they had tried to
00:17:57
Speaker
I think if they had tried to get away from the combat altogether and just had it completely as a like Zelda 3D puzzle game that you used motion controls and stuff, that would have been a completely different experience, which people still probably would have been upset about, but not in the same way. Totally agree. All right. Ready for next game? That was but was C tier? Yeah, C tier. I have another game for C tier. OK.
00:18:25
Speaker
i have ah come you go ah you you throw one out Well, I don't know I don't know what I want to Well, I want to I want to know you I want to know yours first All right. I'm gonna go next Zelda 2. Okay. I think that's a good one to put in there I forgot about that one. It's on my list. I was just I just kept scrolling past it.
00:18:46
Speaker
Yeah, I got Zelda 2 there. Not a bad game. I like it more than Skyward Sword, but again, I saw it. It's a very different Zelda game, of course. This one, I don't judge as harshly as Skyward Sword because they didn't really know what a good Zelda game. Well, they didn't they didn't and they hadn't really perfected Zelda yet. So they were still they were figuring out.
00:19:12
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, look at Nintendo back then. Almost every sequel was something different. like Right. You got, I mean, I know Mario lost levels. The real Mario two is like the same, but mar our Mario two, America's Mario two was so different than Mario. Good old Doki Doki panic.
00:19:27
Speaker
Oh, yeah, Doki Doki Panic. um Just yeah, s sequels were just different back then. I mean, even like Castlevania's were different. Everything was just different and um they didn't know what they had. I think revision going looking back at it, I think it got much more hate in like the early 2000s when people like kind of like, like what is this? Yes. Going back, like looking back. It's not a bad game. It's not a good Zelda game, but it's not a bad game. I think that if you play it on a um I played it on three. I originally played it on 3DS because um just on the the like, what did
Tears of the Kingdom vs. Breath of the Wild Debate
00:20:04
Speaker
they call it? The virtual console. Yes, thank you. um I originally played it on 3DS with the virtual console and I spammed the like safe states in style and stuff. Do you think that makes it a lot better? The game is incredibly painful. You don't have safe. If you do it with safe states, I think you somebody could argue that it's like. A low B tier game, but
00:20:28
Speaker
There's also just some fundamental issues with it that if I remember correctly, when you die, when you die, you basically have to like start the whole game over. like You don't have to read with the dungeons anymore, but you it's like it's essentially a roguelike. Yeah, you don't have to do the dungeons. You have to get all your items again. You have to get all the everything again. um We had the cartridge growing up. I never beat it with a regular cartridge.
00:20:52
Speaker
Never beat it like that. But I did eventually beat it on the three. I did the same thing. Three. Yes, the safe days. I did buy it on the Wii Virtual Console. And after I bought it, I was like, why not just do that? I am. My so my first time playing it all the way through would have been on the three ds virtual console. My first time playing it at all was on the GameCube and the Legend of Zelda collector's edition, which was ah Zelda one, Zelda two, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask.
00:21:23
Speaker
which and I had such I was just I got destroyed by that game and and Zelda one but for for different reasons yeah all right so Zelda 2 seats here and I'm gonna throw out one more game and okay um I could be convinced not this one I'm say phantom hourglass okay I'm good with that and I I know there's another game that you like that I'm hoping is in the next t is in beats here. um I think you. How. How recently have you played Phantom Hourglass? That's another thing I was just supposed to bring that up. I have not played it probably since 2010. OK, so I. I don't know.
00:22:11
Speaker
I know I played it when it came out because I was super excited for anything Zelda in the during the Wii DS area. OK. Ten year old Sean was hyped for. And then I know. And I know I replayed it. Probably in the last like four or five years, but. I don't know that there's much positive for me to say here.
00:22:40
Speaker
OK, see, I am just such a sucker for the that's the toon link, the toon link. I think toon link is great. I think that the DS is a really great place for toon link to live. um That doesn't mean that I don't want him on a on on my TV. But I it felt like the sailing mechanic from ah ah Wind Waker, they dumbed it down and tried to get it to work on a handheld platform. And I think that was a my mistake.
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah, no. ah Another thing is the touch screen controls. Yeah, that's another one where you can kind of feel that that we we designed the mechanics before the actual game thing, because I don't mind. I don't like it, but I could get over like.
00:23:29
Speaker
interacting with puzzles and stuff using the touch screen or like drawing a symbol to be able to unlock a door or something like that. But using the using the touch screen for like basic movement and for like attacking with your sword that it's like you're you're not this isn't being improved by the touch controls it's just it's just worse it's just more effort like yeah i one thing i do like I do like stealth mechanics in games a lot, so there there was a lot of stealth stuff in this game. with um like a lot of the phantoms you couldn Temple of the ah Ocean King. I loved the Temple of the Ocean King the first time I went there. But I didn't like it the second or the third or the fourth time because you have to keep going back there and doing the end.
00:24:19
Speaker
i I don't like in a lot of the games, which I should have mentioned this probably during Skyward Sword as well. There's one boss battle in Skyward Sword that comes back over and over and over again. And then every time they change it a little bit. And I don't like feeling like I'm doing the same thing over and over again. Like I know that that's
Final Remarks on Zelda Tier Placements
00:24:38
Speaker
what video games are. Like that's part of the gameplay loop, but I don't like to feel it.
00:24:45
Speaker
And so yeah returning over and over again in ah Phantom Hourglass to the Temple of the Ocean King. And then ah realizing that in order to actually go further, you need to save yourself some more time by redoing some of the early levels. It's like, I just don't. I i just felt like they. They tried to do a little too much there.
00:25:12
Speaker
No, I agree with you. OK, that's why it's in the seat here. and Yeah. to be there But if we move right up to the beach here, we can go right to its sequel, Spirit Tracks. I think it's your game. OK, I think I don't I don't know if we were going to talk about them in depth. I think the um both of the Hydro Warriors games would live somewhere in the the B tier C tier kind of in that in that area.
00:25:41
Speaker
Um, I'll take your word for that because I've never played Yeah, I've It's they're just so like not very Zelda like I think they're good for what they are but as far as Zelda games go um it's fun to see all the characters and the first one Hyrule Warriors that was on the Wii U they had a pretty cool story that was like bringing the mult bringing multiple uh Zelda timelines together and how Ganondorf was trying to do some like crazy stuff in there. um And ah you had to work with like different allies from like all the different games. And it was actually pretty cool, but it's still not very Zelda. um And it's basically just it's it is it really is still just like a Musou game.
00:26:33
Speaker
where it's just like yeah like you just fighting thousands of enemies. um And so I don't really think... i wouldn't I don't think I could put them any higher than B tier.
00:26:47
Speaker
Okay, for both Hyrule Warriors games. We'll put them in the BTU right with Spirit Tracks right there. um Yeah, I think that's that's good. the thing The thing I like about Spirit Tracks is obviously one quick thing that put it above Phantom Hourglass. I like the train mechanic. I really like that. Okay. And this one, I am going to defer to you a little bit. I haven't played all of Spirit Tracks. I played i played a good chunk of it, probably a year or two years ago. um This one I somehow completely missed when it was on um the when it actually came out on DS. um I actually know what happened. I it came out during it came out in 2011, which would have been during the Guitar Hero phenomenon. And I 100 percent thought that this was a Legend of Zelda themed rhythm game. That's so funny.
00:27:43
Speaker
And so I was like, well, not interested in that. I have real Guitar Hero at home. um and then i never And then it was later on, probably when I was in college, I ended up getting like a um like i used copy at a GameStop or something. Yeah, no nothing wrong with that. No, we don't have to talk about it that way. I just think a lot of the same problems with Phantom Hourglass I have with Spirit Tracks. But i think the I think the train mechanic is a lot cooler. and i think they they did a better job at utilizing the touch screen. Like they they, I think, you know, years later when it came out. So I think they did a better job at, you know, narrowing it down and pinpointing it, and you know, quality of life stuff. Okay. All right. For another BTR game, um I can be talked off this one and I know I'm going to be, but I mean, Breath of the Wild for me is a BTR game. I think, I don't know i don't know about that.
00:28:38
Speaker
I know. i I'm just gonna, I'm putting that, we're not, that's not the official ranking. I'm just putting it out there. For me, it's a B tier game, for me. But I'm just putting that out there. We can talk about it later, when we...
00:28:50
Speaker
If the actual tier, if you had asked me in 2017 about birth of the wild, it would have been easy S tier. But in 2017, I loved that game that much now and also having just replayed Ocarina of Time, which I don't remember if we talked about that before we started recording or after. I don't know. I don't I think B tier would still be a little low.
00:29:18
Speaker
um But. I think I think it does have some obvious stuff that it's missing as far as. Just your classic Zelda.
00:29:31
Speaker
ah ah i What am I trying to say here? um Obviously, dungeons are a big thing that it's missing. It's a real official dungeons and the progression of feeling like.
00:29:46
Speaker
finishing a dungeon and feeling like you finished like a big part of your quest as far as like getting new gear and new items. um Another thing that I do feel like it was kind of lacking is that the side quests in Breath of the Wild don't really feel as significant as some of the side quests particularly I guess Ocarina of Time is going to be the game that I keep going back to but um when you compare it to like the Gold Skullatola which has some um the some impact in the world and you do that to increase your like wallet size um it
00:30:24
Speaker
we can you Even the Majora's Mask, yeah, we can get to it later, but even like the Majora's Mask quests, like they completely blow um Breath of the Wild's quests out of the water. Right. Which...
00:30:37
Speaker
How do you feel about Majora's Mask while we're in the B tier? Oh, Oh, no way. no no way Majora's Mask, oh my gosh. so maybe So maybe we could save that one. Maybe we could train we could trade. well That could be our thing. I'll give you Majora's Mask and you can give me Breath of the Wild and that could be our little, that that could be our compromise. I'll take that deal. okay all right um Anything else for the B tier?
00:31:02
Speaker
are we There's one that I, you know what? I'm gonna do it. I would put Four Swords Adventure also in the V2. Okay, you know. Oh, there it is. I was like, I forgot about that one. No, it's here. Four Swords Adventures. I think it's good. I think, well, I think you like this game a little bit more than I do.
00:31:23
Speaker
Oh, I really like it. Like to me personally, I love Force Wars, but I think it's more because of the memories I have with it playing with, you know, I all of my friends, we had at one game cube link, like, OK, the GBA game. Yeah, we played through it on the Gameboy like with the Gameboy. So we thought it was so cool when you go. um Like if you're in the in like the um overworld and then you go down like ah into like an underground cavern and you're playing on your Game Boy Advance when everyone else is still on the top screen. We thought that is awesome mechanic. So if you think about it, that's like a preset predecessor of like the the DS, like right. The whole two screen thing. Yeah. So ah I've never played four sword adventures with more with anybody other than just me, um which is probably why I don't like it as much as you do.
00:32:10
Speaker
um i The things that I do think are really good about it um I think that the the mechanic of just having multiple links and getting to use the sea stick to kind of put them all in a line or put them in a little box or have it to where they're all have their backs together. I do think that that's really cool. um I also for some reason in that game, I did like not having items directly tied to the story or your like um your like power or anything that you do just find items in each level.
00:32:45
Speaker
um I wasn't a huge fan that it was actually like level that it was like actually like level base um as a stage is basic like stage based but it took yeah yeah Essentially just took it just took areas from a link to the past and made yeah Drew which is odd for Zelda because especially I could see them doing that if they were gonna do this game on like on just Gameboy advance but when it was on the GameCube which then later got games like Wind Waker and Twilight Princess that did get those big open areas that you could run up to and explore. And this was a whole generation after Ocarina of Time that still, I guess for the time, was really um was was really like pressing as far as like technology. um I always thought that was a bit strange to have it be level-based. But I guess when they're not letting you like take items with you and stuff, they got to give you like some direction.
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah, but I'm okay. I'm okay putting that one in the beat here. Yeah Shout out to purple link. That's who I was How do you feel about echoes of wisdom? Okay, this is ah you know, I Could see it being I would lean more towards like a low a tier Okay, but like I could I I can compromise and put it in the beat here. Well, I'm not really I i i'll deferdy I'll defer to you on this one. This is actually one that I haven't finished yet. but Sorry, you you said that you would argue for A tier because...
00:34:14
Speaker
I think the overall design of like conjuring up these, um, anything you really find in the overworld and like being able to use it later on as like an item. I think that is such a cool mechanic. And I think it is so different than what anyone could have expected out of a Zelda game. I think we were thinking more like, Oh, if we got a Zelda game, we could, everyone always was like, Oh, she get a Zelda game. You play a Zelda. I don't think anyone ever thought.
00:34:38
Speaker
They would do it like this. I think people thought more like maybe like a move set like Smash Brothers where she has like these like spells. She like, you know what I mean? Like rails that she uses. Yeah, I think that's a really cool idea. I do think there are some flaws with it, though. I think some of the things you can get and some of the things you can conjure are very much much more useful than other things. And I think that oftentimes I find myself after you know experimenting with all of them relying on a singular one over a lot of the other ones.
00:35:09
Speaker
I don't want to give away what it is. said Right. Did you did you finish the whole game? Yes, I have. Yeah. So I haven't yet. And partially because it just doesn't really seem to grab me like any other Zelda game. um I've been playing it a lot during football. And so I'll be playing it on switch. And then even during football, when I have something else going on, though, after probably like an hour, I'm like, all right.
00:35:37
Speaker
let's Let's make a little progress here. um And then you hinted at this a little bit. I do think that if I could start over, I think I would play it. I would go out of my way to not learn any echoes that I don't think are going to be useful.
00:35:54
Speaker
Because when you're when you're going through all of them, when you're because you can sort your echoes a little bit, but you end up with a lot of nonsense, like a lot of like, oh, here's a pot that looks like this and then a pot that looks like this and a pot that's blue. And ah it makes like navigating through the different um like echo selection kind of tedious. And I yeah i think.
00:36:19
Speaker
that they had obviously some really great ideas that um being able to play as Zelda and being able to um pretty much conjure anything that you want to to kind of work for you.
00:36:32
Speaker
um
00:36:35
Speaker
But I think I also just generally think that the boss battles and the dungeons are kind of weak.
00:36:46
Speaker
um I agree with you. I think the dungeon design is very weak. I think they i think they're more relying on you know the part where like you're trying to get to the dungeon and I think right you i think you a lot of the stuff that you conjure is more useful outside of the dungeon than actually in the dungeon specifically.
00:37:09
Speaker
um by I do like the concept. I think that if we ever got like a sequel to Echoes of Wisdom where they redid like they they carried over this concept, I think it might be a little bit more fine tuned. But honestly, I have no idea if we'll ever get like a game like that again, because you know how Nintendo is. Right. And and especially may I would prefer I would prefer for a people are saying that they would want a like um They would want Grezzo to remake a different Zelda game in the same way that they did, like, Link's Awakening, which I... Was it them that did Link's Awakening or was it someone else? Yeah, they did. They did Link's Awakening. Okay, they did Link's Awakening and they did... I'm blanking on the name. ah The 3DS game. Triforce Heroes? No, the other one. The Link Between Worlds. Oh, Link Between Worlds. Did they do that one too?
00:38:00
Speaker
I'm not sure if they did that one. OK, but I don't know. I would want them to make a completely new Zelda game that I think the. I really think that a link between the past a link to the past and the Oracle games and Minish Cap, I think all of those are perfect the way that they are. And I don't think that they need to be cartoonified. Yeah, make them clay. Right. Yeah. OK. You know what?
00:38:29
Speaker
After discussing this, I think Echoes of Wisdom, B tier. B tier. Which it's. It's. Yeah, I don't know. Which it's tough. to It's tough to say as well, just because I haven't finished the whole game yet. And so it's possible that it could get. And I don't hear about very it seems like not a lot of people played it. So a lot of the. um I don't hear a lot of people talking about it except for um sometimes like on podcasts and stuff where people are just saying like get how up great it is. It's like, okay, cool. I might be missing something here. It's a cozy game. It's cozy, but it's not. So I will give you this one. Anytime I play Zelda game, usually this is how I know if I'm like really connected to it. Once I beat the game, if I continue to keep thinking about the world and a lot of like the boss fights and the dungeons, then I know I'm like, I have a huge, deep connection to it.
00:39:21
Speaker
since i beat echoes of wisdom i probably don't really i have not i mean it came out in it came out in september i played it i don't know four or five hours a month ah over the last four months. um So it just doesn't like it. It doesn't grab me. It doesn't make me want to keep playing it. And I don't think about it when I'm not playing it. I think when I'm thinking about it, I think about replaying like Pikmin or something. yeah okay um I think.
00:40:00
Speaker
Let's see. Oh, we said Skyward Sword already. So i'm trying to get some of the I'm trying to get some of the ones that we've already talked about off my list so I don't miss other ones. So to recap for the audience, F tier, CDI trilogy, D tier, Triforce Heroes, and Four Swords, Game Boy Advance. C tier, Skyward Sword, Zelda II, Phantom Hourglass. B tier, Spirit Tracks, hi rule both the Hyrule Warriors games, Four Swords Adventures, and Echoes of Wisdom.
00:40:29
Speaker
I think there might be one more I would put in this B tier. What is it? One more. I think a link between worlds I'd put in B tier. OK, I I hadn't I would be OK with probably A or B on that one. A lot of people will say that's their favorite. I mean, yep, I don't. I never quite. I don't think it's as good as.
00:40:57
Speaker
I think.
00:41:00
Speaker
I don't think it's as good as A Link to the Past. It's not as good as either Oracle game. I don't think it's as good as Minish Cap. Like, I don't... So what? You could turn into a piece of paper and crawl around on some walls. Like, what if you... And everyone's like, well, you can rent the items so much better. I'm like, no, that's part of the whole Zelda, part of the whole, like, mistake about Zelda is going through and discovering how to get the item, the puzzle to find the item, and then using the item for a puzzle. Right.
00:41:29
Speaker
Okay, I'm comfortable putting this one B tier. Bingo. I wasn't, so when I, when it first came out, everyone was praising it, like giving it like 10s and 10s. So I went in with like i'm like, oh my gosh, this is going to be like the next link to the past. And then I came out and I was like, it was good, but it's not, you know, God's gift to earth.
00:41:55
Speaker
I've, ah so I've played the game, I've only played it once all the way through, but I've played it I've approached it two different ways. The first time that I tried playing it, I was like, oh, well, obviously I want to play the entire game with all of the items. So I was like going around and like grinding for rupees and trying to play mini games and do all this stuff to be able to like outright purchase the items. And I was like, this sucks. You can't do anything. And then.
00:42:26
Speaker
Later on, when I tried to play it again, I was like, OK, I know this is how you have to play the game. I'm going to completely ignore the items until I need them. And then I'm going to go and rent whatever it is that I need for a specific dungeon. And that made it better. um I do think that mechanically, there are some issues there for me. Like when you when you do die, what's up?
00:42:53
Speaker
No, I was gonna say I don't like how that they're and they almost like force you to rent the items I don't like that right like you can rent them But you know the real with the proper way would be to like, you know go and buy them But they make everything so freakin expensive, right? Which I think yeah um I wish that when you died, there was an option to just re-rent everything that you had on you. And so so if you die in a dungeon, you lose all your items and it's like, well, I needed those items to finish this dungeon. Now I have to go all the way back to my house, re-rent all of the items individually, and then go all the way back to the dungeon. And I wish there was just an option of like, Hey, you just died with these items. Did you want to re-rent all of these items for,
00:43:37
Speaker
this many rupees a piece and you could just be like sure go for it. um I think that would have helped kind of streamline things a little bit and then I also think that the dungeons have an issue that I think it's really cool that the dungeons can be done in any order but I think that what you're kind of left with is a whole bunch of dungeons that feel kind of entry level.
00:43:57
Speaker
And then you get there's no there's no like there's no difficulty for right or the same difficulty because because but like whereas when you compare it to um late like other Zelda games that force you into a specific order, your dungeons are going to get harder as you go, that they're going to be a little the puzzles are going to be a little bit more difficult, that the combat is going to be a little bit more difficult um and ah I just, it it felt like all of the dungeons, I think I already said, it felt like they were a little bit entry level, and then you get to Hyrule Castle, I think. Yeah, that that game takes place in Hyrule. I can never keep it straight. um You get to Hyrule Castle, and it treats you like you've conquered eight dungeons, and then all of a sudden the game gets really hard. Huge difficulty spike, yeah.
00:44:54
Speaker
And, um, last thing that I'm going to say about this game is before you find out who ravio really is really weird, really weird appearance, like Easter bunny cross, like shock. That's true. That's what I get out of it. Really weird. Um, also, why is that? Why is that his disguise? That's the weirdest disguise he could come up with.
00:45:21
Speaker
Yeah, that is a really like, of all disguises, you're going to put that on a bunny rabbit mask. Yeah. um Strange. Very strange. I think that. Let's see. I think that pretty much does it for B tier for me. Oh, one that was on my list that i I can almost guarantee is not on your list. Just links, crossbow training. Oh, my gosh, links, cross for that. I did play this game.
00:45:51
Speaker
If I had to include it anywhere, I'd probably do D tier. Yeah, either C or D. I was going to bring it up earlier, but I forgot about it till just now. Crossbow training. Basically, they did to make you buy that stupid zapper. Yeah, it came with it. I have. I have this app. It's not in it's not in here, but I have it ah going. I don't have it floating around somewhere. I think I only played one other game with that.
00:46:21
Speaker
I think I also used it for ah Call of Duty Modern Warfare on Wii, which I'm pretty sure was the last time I bought and played a Call of Duty. So like huge Call of Duty fan. Oh yeah, huge. I used it for the on-rail Resident Evil shooting game. I think it was like Umbrella Chronicles. Oh, I don't even remember that one. It was like an on-rails Resident Evil game. OK. I don't know. But I used it for that. That was it.
00:46:52
Speaker
My friends used it and use it for the conduit. Do you remember that game? Oh, that game's great, actually. I never played it, but my friends liked it a lot. I borrowed the first conduit from a friend of mine that lived in my neighborhood, and I loved it. And then...
00:47:06
Speaker
It took them so long to make the second game that it's like I don't even know if I was still playing on the Wii. Like in my mind, the Wii was like gone when the second one came out and it was on the Wii. And I bought it. I think I like pre-ordered it and got it like right when it came out. And I tried playing it for like 10 minutes and I was like, I can't do this. I can't do it. Nope. Yeah, I just said these controls not for not for me. Yeah.
00:47:34
Speaker
All right. Well, we we're down to the A in the S tier and we have some freaking amazing games left. Like, um, you know what? I think I'm going to, you don't want to think I want to do though. I think I want to jump to the S tier first. Okay.
00:47:49
Speaker
Yeah. And I obviously we're going to throw out your favorites all the game in the S.T. Oh, Ocarina time. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's not even do we even have to debate this? Like there's not even a nine in a question. This is I think I would. I think I would be OK with anything else as long as this game ends up in the S tier.
00:48:13
Speaker
It is an S tier game. It okay created the ah it basically took the formula that Zelda established with the I would say prototype in the original Zelda established with a link to the past and took that and made it like what we know.
00:48:31
Speaker
right what we what we knew it was up until Breath of the Wild you know you start out you go to these three areas you get the three items yeah you get something crazy happens and you gotta to go to these three other places get three more items and it just escalates in there but I remember the first time like watching Link grow to adult Link and being and then coming out and it's like a whole new world. right My mind was blown away because this is how I experienced it. I was three years old. I was watching my cousins play it. I was in my cousin's house every day.
00:49:06
Speaker
and One day, they were a small link, and they go, oh, we're gonna get big, we're gonna become big. I left to go back to my house. The next day, I come back over there, and all of a sudden the world's all messed up and crazy. I had no idea what happened, and all of a sudden the link's taller.
00:49:23
Speaker
And that just blew me away and the and and um everything everything just oh my gosh Hyrule in the future actually freaked me out. I like I also but think that the um storytelling not necessarily like the the story that they like that you read and the story that like in the cut scenes and stuff. But as far as having the three dungeons that you do as a child,
00:49:46
Speaker
to kind of make you go to the different areas. And then when you go back as an adult and you see the whole world kind of in turmoil, you get to actually see like how much everything has changed. I think it was a lot more impactful than if um in like Twilight Princess or something where it kind of drops you into a world that's already kind of in chaos. And it's like, well, yeah, it is crazy here, but like, I don't really know what it looked like before. It's like now we do know.
00:50:14
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it was so cool to like get connections with some of the characters and then later on to see where they are seven years later and see how much Like how like bad their life is like their life is just turned into like an absolute like right and Everyone's like where have you been for seven years? It's like oh, well, I haven't really know nothing's crazy and I liked OK, so like getting Epona was so cool, like for the first time, like riding on and like thinking like, oh, my gosh, this world is so big and and you go back to it. It's like such a small world. Right. um But I don't know. just It was so cool just running around Hyrule and like an open 3D world. I'll never be like the opening of the game, the the opening of the game. Like you had mentioned the Deku Tree earlier, just like that dungeon basically teaching you like how to play 3D Zelda.
00:51:01
Speaker
It's so smart and it's so it's designed so well. Right. The Great Deku Tree is a great Deku Tree, I think is a fabulous introduction to what 3D dungeons are going to look like. It really makes you kind of think outside the box. And it also introduces you to the stuff, some of the different stuff you're going to be experiencing in there like, oh, like you can't do everything in water that you can in on land and um you've got to pay attention to like fire and using the Deku stick to to light the different torches and stuff. I think that that game... I think it's it's wonderfully paced and I think it's just fantastically delivered. Okay. What's your favorite dungeon in the entire Ocarina of Time? Favorite dungeon? Probably. I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
00:51:53
Speaker
Um, I'm not, ah not a lot, probably some, um, the spirit temple, which is the last ah dungeon that you do before going to hydro castle. And what I liked about that one is that it, after you've spent all this time as an adult,
00:52:11
Speaker
We might be getting into mild spoilers. I don't know if people care about spoilers on a almost 30-year-old video game. um But so you've done all this stuff as an adult, and then it makes you go back in time. And you do half of the dungeon as child length, and you get items as child length that you can't use. And you promise to go and like give them to other people. And then you do the rest of the dungeon as an adult, and you get the Mirror Shield.
00:52:40
Speaker
and I thought the Mirror Shield was really cool the way that you solve puzzles with the reflections. And I also liked that it was a, ah it felt like an upgrade from the Hylian Shield because since it is a unique item, it can't be taken by the ah like likes, which i always I always liked that as well.
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah. So that is like my number two dungeon in Ocarina of time. I really like that whole concept of doing half of it as a young link and then a half of it is the adult link. I love the mirror shield. That's so cool. But my favorite is the water temple. I love the water. OK, that's that one. I can I can give you that one as long as it's not like the shadow temple or something and like. Oh, no gosh. um I like the water temple. I love the the intricate puzzle design. I think it's so and I think it's so The design is so complicated, yet once you like understand what to do, you realize it's not as complicated as I thought. it just It's overwhelming at first, and it seems like you have no idea where you're going, but when you solve it, it's so satisfying. I think the water temple is great. I think it would probably be my second favorite one. I think what would keep it out of the top slot for me would be that
00:54:00
Speaker
It's not very kind when it's your first time playing it, that it's very confusing. And I wish it were easier to keep track of the three locations where you can change the water level, which on the on the Ocarina of Time 3D, they might have changed that. I've actually never played it. Yeah, they did. They made it a lot easier to track where you are and the iron boots, you know, to pause the menu every time you want to put them on, which is great.
00:54:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's that was a frustrating one too that ah that definitely knocks it down a couple pegs for me just because having to in the way that they have the ah the pause menu on the N64 version and the Nintendo Switch online version.
00:54:45
Speaker
It's not even just like one page over from the map. It's like you go to the map and you have to go like to tour. It's at a cube, I guess. So you it's on the exact opposite side. So you have to flip over like a couple of times. And it's like, OK, it's it's it's annoying. But, you know, we're 3D Zelda. So like, can we really like they were still figuring it out. I'm surprised they figured it out that well.
00:55:09
Speaker
the fact that that the game runs as well as it does with all how much how many like game breaking glitches people have found with it is ridiculous which is like i don't think it's perfect like i think there are way too many gold scolatola um i i think there's something wrong with the great fairy they but nothing's perfect but like nothing's perfect the game is the game is awesome the game is awesome All right. Moving on. Gotta include my favorite. you Gotta include it. Link to the past. Yeah. Link to the past. Definitely S tier. This is the...
00:55:43
Speaker
Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. It's your yeah obviously it's your favorite it's your favorite game. Yeah, this game as a kid, I is one of the first Zelda games I ever completed by myself. I was five years old when I completed it. OK. Yeah, it took me a month. It's that's tough. Yeah, it took me months. But um when that when you when it's revealed that you there's like a whole nother world, like the shadow realm, the shadow world. I did not understand how it was like capable of doing that. Oh my goodness. I'm like, how is this capable? How am I not to put in like another cartridge?
00:56:14
Speaker
Stupidly enough, because of me, we had PS1 as well, and I saw the games with like two discs, and I was like, how can I go to another world and be on the same cartridge when not to put another cartridge in? um I love the whole, i first of all, the art style is just gorgeous. That 16 bit art style just really catches my eye. I love how it opens up and it's raining and you're just thrown into this place and like, Oh, you have to go save Zoe. You got to go to the town. You got to go to Hyrule to get to go to the castle. You got to go to the castle. Something's going on with the castle. All of a sudden you're super important.
00:56:45
Speaker
Yeah, like it's just so weird. um But I love the dungeon designs of them. I love how diverse the areas are. Hyrule and it basically set up like what the modern Hyrule is like what we today with all the different areas with the because all of I think that pretty much all of the Hyrule's have kind of followed that same yeah structure. Like if you kind of like none of them are the exact same. But if you put the maps of them, it's like all of them have like, OK, like Death Mountain over here and then like Yeah, which all that all that that same that design it's kind of based off that they took what the originals all it didn't kind of just
00:57:20
Speaker
gave it that extra oomph. I love all the different secrets you have in this game. It's not as obtuse as, the you know, the original where in this. Oh, definitely not. You can logically find you can logically find everything if you talk to like different NPCs. Oh, i I believe that you can figure out exactly what to do in this game by playing the game, which I don't know if I can say that about Zelda one.
00:57:44
Speaker
um No, you cannot. Zelda one. If you don't play with a guide and it's your first time, there's no way you can. Right. Well, because. Yeah. Well, well, I'm sure we'll talk about Zelda one in a little bit. But only to the past. This is the 2D game or the top down Zelda game that I am the least familiar with.
00:58:05
Speaker
Um, because I never had an SNS as a kid. Um, my first Zelda game would have been on the N64 with Ocarina of Time. And then I kind of played more of it, more of them that they came out. The first time that I played this would have been on three DS. I think I got it on virtual console. Um, I think it has the hands down the best dungeons. Um, the dungeons are, the dungeons are immaculate in this game. Right. Oh my gosh.
00:58:35
Speaker
that they don't feel like they're trying to make them like too easy or um like hold your hand too much or anything. Yeah, I think it's a perfect difficulty. They don't hold, like you said, they don't hold your hand. um The one thing I will give it, there is a, I'm not gonna reveal what dungeon in this case people haven't played, but there is a specific dungeon where you have to bomb something at a certain point near the end of the dungeon. And this this is not really an indicator.
00:59:01
Speaker
And I know that people who have played it today have said they've gotten stuck there to the point where they've left the dungeon thinking they missed an item. Oh. And in reality, you just need to bomb a certain area. And it's not a clear indicator that you do. Does this want to have the. Arbitrary trading sequence.
00:59:22
Speaker
No, that's a Link's Awakening. Okay, I know I... but but Sorry, Link's Awakening started that and then had that at every single game after that. Yes. Link's Awakening is the one that started that. Yeah.
00:59:34
Speaker
um But you know, it was really cool, though, is that like the the the dark world, how it wasn't just like, obviously, when you go to the dark world, it's like the same map design, but they don't just say it's all new enemies. And all new those enemies, the first time you go there, they'll beat you up. They're going to kill you. It's insane. You're you are literally you go to the dark world and you're like, I'm getting money it's like going from like the minor league to the major leagues. Also you're like, wow, I'm playing with men now. And if I remember correctly, there's a lot of dungeons in there, too, right?
01:00:07
Speaker
Yeah. And there's like sort like like twelve or something like. Yeah, there's twelve. So there's there's eight in the regular up on the regular world and there's four in the dark world exclusive to the dark world, which is like that's an insane amount of dungeons. And like none of it, they're not like like you had said, they're not like skimping on any of them. They're all right. all like And I remember from when I played it a little bit more recently,
01:00:32
Speaker
um I didn't play the entire game but I played the first couple dungeons and one thing that I really liked is that you start the game and then you're almost instantly like thrown in. Like I think like Hyrule Castle when you get there is basically like a dungeon.
01:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a it's like a mini it's similar to I would say like the deco tree dungeon It's like right you're teaching you how to you're teaching you how to You know maneuver the 2d top-down world and it it is and we're back from the dark world. Sorry. We had some technical difficulties I think Gannon was listening to us and he decided what you should not be in this world Yeah, he was he was mad that he hasn't come up in this in the show yet at all.
01:01:10
Speaker
Yeah. Frickin' Ganon. Giant pig man. Um, no, but, um, yeah, I linked to the, I linked to the past. They, they throw you right in to the world and like you're in Hyrule Castle and it's like a dungeon. There's enemies there. They're trying to teach you how to play the top down Zelda. And it is very eerie. Like when they, you started out, I told you, it's like, like, like like I said, it's like down pouring and you, you have thrust into this world. That's already in some type of have a chaos.
01:01:38
Speaker
Um, yes, I yeah sorry, I completely agree I was looking at my list. Um. We have to worry in the S tier still. Yep. And then we're going to go back down to a tier. Yeah. All right. Do you have more that you want to put in S tier? I don't know. I got I got one more. I have one. I have one that I'm for sure OK with. And I think that's you want to say it.
01:02:08
Speaker
Three, two, one. Wind Waker. Wind Waker. Yes. OK. All right. Wind Waker, definitely.
01:02:18
Speaker
One thing I'll say about this before anyone gets on us. Yes, we just said a link to the past. We love it. There's so many dungeons. We all know Wind Waker does not have a lot of dungeons. That's four, but they're good, right? Yes, they are tremendous dungeons. And I think it's made up for with the huge, vast open world they give you, which was 2003 this game came out right that is way ahead of times like you lost anyone you want Yeah, lots of little islands to go explore lots of little areas and side quests and stuff to go and do um lots of weird-looking characters to go talk to
01:02:50
Speaker
um weirdly inconsistent in their character design that you've got like booger kid who is shaped completely different than like then like egg shaped head guy that runs the yeah the auction house or whatever or the yeah the boat theater thing. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yep. And I love, you brought up the auction house. I love that whole design of you just going in there and you just auction, you just like putting your number up. I love that whole aspect. Some of those like side stories, they're not even like side quests, just the side stories that go on with some of the NPCs. It's really like bizarre and dark, some of them.
01:03:32
Speaker
um Just like with the relationships between characters that you learn about and some of the characters that go to the auction house It's so I don't want to say like you need to it like if you haven't played one maker you need to experience it and Like try to do everything cuz there's so many like little things It'll be on switch soon. Hopefully It will be switched to launch. I know that we've been saying that since I know we've been saying that for like eight years now But like it's gotta happen soon Yeah. um And the art style. I love it. Like I know some people are against it. ah It's growing on people. But I think the art style actually worked. I think it works really well. I think it's the most expressive link that we've ever seen. And I really like that. I also something that they did in in Wind Waker that I don't think they've done in many other games is the there's certain items and weapons
01:04:25
Speaker
that enemies use that you can pick up and then like use against them or use them for puzzles and stuff. The the wood things that that you can you use them as like torches and stuff. You know, giant spears. Yeah. For second fortress. Yeah. um And if I remember correctly, you can use them. You can like swing them around and you can also throw them, which I think is really cool. Yeah. And nothing will be when you first go to four second fortress the first time and they just shoot you out of the cannon.
01:04:55
Speaker
I'm like, oh, well, how am I gonna get there? All of a sudden, Lynx is like, what? And he's in the cannon, and they just shoot him and he hits the wall. He just drops, and your sword's flying around. You don't have your sword anymore. I love that whole area. I remember the first time I went there, I was so petrified about everything. I was so scared. I'm like, I don't wanna get caught. I also think the...
01:05:20
Speaker
This game, I think they do a pretty good job of straying away from your more traditional um Zelda items. Yes. That yeah um there's items in there like the like the grappling hook, I think is used really well and it doesn't really come back a whole lot. I think it's come back at all, if I remember correctly. No, but I could be wrong. I think that was like leaning in towards like the whole pirate aspects, like you have the grappling hook and you're on a pirate ship.
01:05:48
Speaker
um and Then I know there's other ones too, but I'm blanking on I'm blanking on the other items that I liked right now Was this the introduction of tingle I Know he's in Majora's mask Okay. Yeah, that would have been a couple years before. That would have been like three, three, four years before this. This is the first where like Tingle has like a bigger role in the game and there's like an actual thing you can do. What is he doing with Majora's Mask? I don't remember him in there. He's in Majora's Mask. He has the balloons. Oh, yeah. He's super ugly in that game. Yes, he's super ugly. He's not a big part of the game, but he's in it.
01:06:33
Speaker
he like runs around he can he runs around the um overworld sometimes um and he has like the blue you can shoot him down in the but like when he's floating in the balloons too yeah um and i love the king of red lines and i love the reveal from the king of red lines at the end like that was that that was a huge like oh my i did not see that coming oh yeah same um and i think you had said like i think i thought it was really unique of of them to you know, cover the world in water and just be like, we're doing something completely different now and figure it out. And then how it ends up kind of connecting to everything else, I think is pretty good, too. um it That was back when the stories made a little bit more sense. Yeah. And the end scene when you fight Ganon, that last blow you deliver to them. That's great. And that is probably one of the best Ganondorf fights
01:07:29
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I would say that's a good one. I think Twilight Princess is a good one. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like we don't fight Ganon as many times as I would like to. Yeah. All right. Anything else for the S tier? We have those three games. How do you feel about Tears of the Kingdom?
01:08:00
Speaker
I don't know. Well.
01:08:07
Speaker
I think one of those games, either Tears of the Kingdom or Breath of the Wild, probably one of them probably should be in. S tier, but I don't know if it should be Tears of the Kingdom. OK, how do you how do you feel about Tears of the Kingdom?
01:08:28
Speaker
It's better than Breath of the Wild, definitely. I think's i think okay for me personally, I think it's better than Breath of the Wild. I think it refined everything Breath of the Wild did, and I think it took all the problems I had with it and made them a little bit less of a problem for me. I still don't think it's like the greatest Zelda game ever. I think it misses... it's I'm still missing that more traditional format of all the Zelda games that we've come to know and love, but I do think it's better.
01:08:55
Speaker
um I think they did better with the dungeons. in Yeah, well the dungeons definitely were much better. I think the i think the overall design of like the i think like the NPCs were a little bit better. and like I think it's more meaningful to like talk to people.
01:09:11
Speaker
yeah Tears of the Kingdom rather than in Breath of the Wild where I felt like I was just talking to the same people over and over again, but they're repeating the same stuff. I don't like that in Tears of the Kingdom. It's like the same people from Breath of the Wild, but none of them know who you are. Everyone's like, Oh, who are you? We've never met, but we're meeting right now for the first time. That is true. That is a little weird. um But it's like i drink it's like I know that Nintendo. What can you do? Yeah.
01:09:36
Speaker
That is true. um But I am open to either game being in the S tier, even though I think let's the let's let's go ahead and put I do think that Tears of the Kingdom is a better game, but I might like so i'm I'm good sticking that one in the S tier, but I think. I think the only thing that kind of sours tears of the kingdom for me is that it's such a huge game that it's like, I don't know if I ever am going to go back and play that game again.
01:10:06
Speaker
OK, interesting. See, I've never gone back and I have i only played it once and I've never gone back and played Breath of the Wild either. Oh, I did. I did go back and play Breath of the Wild. A couple of times I. I tried at one point to do it. What's up? How many core exceeds? Oh, I don't know. Probably probably like three or four hundred. I had a map. I had a map on my computer that I was keeping track of all the core exceeds on.
01:10:35
Speaker
um And I was trying to get all of them. And then eventually I was just like, I'm not doing this. Is it sad that that's my favorite part of the game? The Korok seeds? Breath of the Wilds. Yeah, I think i think the Korok puzzles are awesome. But I just think there's way too many of them. Oh, way too many. And some of them are like, comically easy. But I think it's it's kind of like the whole moon situation, honestly, like some of them are like so easy and some of them are like so. Right. But I think the Korok seeds in Breath of the Wild were like it harkened back to like the puzzles, the feeling I got when I saw the puzzle and i looked at the past and the feeling I got when I saw the puzzle in Ocarina where it was so satisfying and you're like, this is so, but then like the reward is just like, oh. Well, the part that I, the mostly the part that I have an issue with, with the Korok seeds is that when there's so many of them and there's not really a way in game to keep track of which ones you've already gotten other than them showing up a little icon on the map, I,
01:11:36
Speaker
it It makes it to where if you want to 100 percent the game, you have to use like an external guide or an external checklist or something, which I don't really like. But if they had a way to keep track or if they had an NPC in game that you could go talk to and they like they had this actually in Super Mario Odyssey, you could go and talk to an NPC and pay them like a little bit up, give them some points. And they would be like, oh, hey, there's a there's a moon over here that you haven't gotten yet.
01:12:03
Speaker
Yeah. ah And so it made it to where you could get pretty much all of the moons or at least know like where they were. um Without having to go and like.
01:12:17
Speaker
Scrub through like pages and pages of documents and makes sense for tears of the kingdom Which we we just talked about that one briefly um What kind of soured that one for me? It was that I got I actually never did all of the shrines in tears of the kingdom um I did them all in breath of the wild But I got to a point in tears of the kingdom that how many are there total? Is it 120 120 again? Yeah, I think I had done probably like 90 of them and And I got to where I was like, OK, if I'm going to do if I'm going to continue going, I need to start looking up where the rest of the shrines are because I can't find anymore. And I had ah I had a map pulled up on my computer and I was um I was sitting in play and I had my computer open with me. And then I'm like scrubbing over this map and like trying to like be like, OK, I got that one. I got that one. I got that one. I got that one. And I found one and I went to it.
01:13:15
Speaker
And it and I was like, all right, this isn't fun. I'm not I'm not I'm not doing this. And I just quit. I quit right there that I never played the game again. OK, so you know what I think this means to me? I think i think we've decided that Tears of the Kingdom is not an S tier game, but an A tier game. And I will give you Breath of the Wild and the S tier. I will do that. Well, I don't know, because also.
01:13:41
Speaker
I feel like i' I'm a kind of flip-flopping here because I so I fell off of Tears of the Kingdom really hard when I was kind of get when I got to the end So I beat the game and they didn't want to do the rest of the shines and I fell off really hard But prior to that it was probably the only game I played for like a month Okay, and maybe you know what this means then they're just both AT we don't have Okay, I'm good with them both being AT here Okay. All right. um For time sakes, I don't want to keep us too long. We have just about one, two, three, four, five, six, seven games left. of Six games left. I have six games left on the list. I think we can agree. I think they're all A tier games. We've got the original Legend of Zelda.
Original Legend of Zelda: Likes and Dislikes
01:14:23
Speaker
Basically, I think we should say like one thing we like about all these games. Okay. Legend of Zelda, the original. What I really like about it, it set up the foundation for Zelda as we know it.
01:14:33
Speaker
That's a good one. What I really like about it is that um people have found really cool and interesting ways to break the game. and what i Should we say something we don't like about them and why they're not in the S tier? Yeah, let's say one thing we don't like about them. What I don't like about it is that there's no... I've taken it. There's no way to figure out what to do with this game without reading a guide. The obtuseness of this game is ridiculous. it was It was designed to be played with the printout manual that came in the box.
01:15:02
Speaker
which is not available anymore. you got to look at You got to look at it online. Yeah. OK.
Link's Awakening Praise and Criticism
01:15:10
Speaker
That's like definitely. All right. Let's awakening. What's one thing you like about it? I kind of like that it doesn't take place in Hyrule, that it feels like it sounds like kind of self-contained story. And. You are once again kind of tracking down instruments and stuff and playing songs to be able to do like whatever, whatever, but I just I don't know. I like that it's kind of set apart and kind of at the end of the game, it's like you're not really sure what happened. I love how different it is. Very similar to you. Doesn't take place in Hyrule. You have freaking Mario characters running around. You have Wort from Mario 2 appearing in some random like little area. I love just how different it is. And they dared to be different. And I think they hit it out of the park um with all of the original, the the GX version, the DX yeah version and the
01:16:00
Speaker
remake on Switch. I think it's awesome. ah The thing I don't like about it is that Trading Quest. I do not like that Trading Quest. It's so weird what you have to do and the hint is not really... like they They try to give you a hint, but it's not like... You pick up the phone and like you you call that phone booth and you like pick it up.
01:16:20
Speaker
Yeah, they try to give you a hint. and It's not really helpful. the The trading quest is one that I don't. I think trading quests are done a little bit better in some of the other games um that at least they give you a little bit more instruction or they make them side quests like they did in Ocarina time. um I think.
01:16:38
Speaker
There's not that doesn't always do a great time. It doesn't always do a great job of telling you what you're supposed to do next, that a lot of times they'll put character they'll they'll put um NPCs around and it'll say like, oh, man, you should go check out this weird new hole in the ground or something like that. But they don't really do that in this game. And I think they knew that it was a little bit vague. And that's why they put the phone booths everywhere. They don't make any that don't make sense in Zelda at all. No.
01:17:08
Speaker
weird, but it is cool to run around and you have a change job with you. That's kind of cool.
Majora's Mask Uniqueness and Critique
01:17:14
Speaker
Um, next one I got on my list is Majora's Mask. Okay. That was, I was going to say that one too. All right. What I like about Majora's Mask is again, very similar to Link's Awakening, how different it is. Again, it doesn't take place in Hyrule. Um,
01:17:33
Speaker
You only have, you're in the three day cycle. um That fricking moon coming down scared the crap out of me as a kid. um And I just liked the whole concept of changing into these various um creatures and people we've encountered in Ocarina of Time. I thought that was such a cool idea. I, yeah, I think the strongest part is obviously the masks and the different abilities that they give you. um And that you the three main masks that you get that you're so as Link, you're a kid and as the deck of scrub, you're a kid. But then some of the masks that you get, they all of a sudden people start talking to you like you're an adult, which I thought was interesting to Zora Yeah, Zora is my favorite in the game. The Zora one is my favorite in the game.
01:18:20
Speaker
The Goron, I think they also treat you like an adult. I also like how they all have different instruments and then you. Goron. And you can. I don't remember if it's part of the main quest or a side quest where you go and you play at the bar as all the different like instruments and stuff.
01:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, so that that's a side quest, but it's such a cool. I love that. It's such a cool idea. um That is another really strong suit about this game is the side quest. There's so many different things to do and it's all time dependent. I hate that it's time dependent. Oh, I, I don't like.
01:19:00
Speaker
I don't like being neck deep in a dungeon and then realizing like I'm running out of time which this doesn't happen now when I replay the game but this happened before like when I would play the game um like as a kid it was like I don't really know what I'm doing I'm gonna be be here for a while and then also on the on the little side quests and stuff. Some of those side quests get very complicated and you might you might mess something up or miss like a window to talk to somebody and then all of a sudden you have to start the whole thing over, yeah which I find that a little bit frustrating too, that I don't like. I don't like feeling like I'm wasting my time, not that not that Majora's Mask would be a waste of time, but I could see something like that happening and then me think like.
01:19:47
Speaker
I don't think I actually need that mask. No, I hear you. OK, I could see that. Yeah,
Minish Cap Art Style and Complexity
01:19:55
Speaker
I understand what you mean. But that's why in the three d S version of the Bombers notebook that you get huge, huge help. I've actually never played the three. d Is the three S. Well, you get the Bombers notebook in the in the N64 version as well. And it's super it's super helpful in really.
01:20:14
Speaker
Yeah, um it's it's a lot more helpful in the 3DS version. It's very helpful. i thought I found it to be pretty helpful in the N64 version because it would tell you like the specific windows when you're supposed to talk to people like at a specific time and stuff, too. But it wouldn't always tell you exactly like what you were supposed to do or if you were supposed to give them an item or something. I don't have that game on 3DS. I might want to look at getting it.
01:20:40
Speaker
It's good. All right. Next up, I got Minish Cap. Wait, and then do you only have one more after Minish Cap? No, I got two more. OK. Well, three more, right? Well, I'm including two of them together. OK, OK, OK. Yeah. OK. All right. Minish Cap. yeah On the right day of the week. This could be my.
01:21:08
Speaker
This could probably be one of my favorite top-down Zelda's. Yes! um It does get the the added bonus of this is the one I've played most recently and I think the being available on the Game Boy Advance and now being available on Nintendo Switch Online and I think that the art style age so wonderfully and it plays perfectly when you play it on your Switch with a Pro Controller. I just, I don't, I i love Minish Cap.
01:21:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I think Minish Cap is phenomenal. I think it gets it's so overhated. I think a lot of people hate on it again because it was, it's again, it's like that. It's like the GBA version of like the Wind Waker art style. It's like that style. It definitely is. Yeah. Um, I think the dungeon design in this game is phenomenal. Like some of the designs for this dungeon like that, the palace of winds in particular, I thought was one of them were my favorite, some of my favorite dungeons of all time. Some of them get a little confusing.
01:22:14
Speaker
um when you're trying to figure out like shrinking and growing and going and like doing all all whatever but i think this is another one that i think there's only four main dungeons right there's only four main dungeons but but on a handheld i guess it isn't yeah and the areas before the dungeons like to get into the dungeon are like almost dungeons in themselves they're huge um and there's so many puzzles to try to figure out how to get in
01:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, I I love Minish Cap. Yeah. Very special place. I really like the. I really like your gosh, what's his name as low? The hat might be my favorite companion yeah from I think might be my favorite companion in any Zelda game.
01:23:05
Speaker
I like him too. And he like, there's certain parts where he like kind of like makes fun of you too. He he hates you Link, but he's got to be there because he doesn't have legs. like Yeah, he's he's a hilarious companion. I do. like Yeah. And I would forget that he's a person. I would forget that he's like a companion because he goes into like he he um when you're just running around and stuff, they hide his like his eyes and mouth and stuff. And it's like I would forget at times that it was a companion. And then all of a sudden he would start talking. I'm like, oh, yeah, that guy is still here.
Oracle of Ages and Seasons Discussion
01:23:38
Speaker
yeah All right. And then, uh, next up, uh, Oracle of Ages slash seasons. I put them together. Yeah. Um, I think the, I think these games are great. I think it's so cool how one's more focused on combat and one's more focused on like the puzzle aspects. Um,
01:23:53
Speaker
The thing I don't know, I don't like about it is I think it uses a lot of the same assets as links awakening, which is, you know, I mean, it's same, same, same team that made it, same console way in to get the true links awakening was links awakening Capcom. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. yeah I knew Minish Cap was Capcom. Yeah, no, they were kept on this. Well,
01:24:18
Speaker
um Or I knew I knew these two were Capcom and I knew Minish Cap was Capcom. I didn't know Link's Awakening was Capcom. um Pretty sure it was. But none nonetheless, the way um I like this game a lot. I think it's so cool how they if you like put the games together after you beat them, you like the true story ending. I do wish that getting the two games to talk to each other was a little bit easier. I know they were limited by the technology of the time, but it'll be like Oh, you go and it'll give you a code at the end of the first game that you put in the second game and then somebody in the second game will give you a code and you have to go talk to somebody in the first game and give them that code to be able to get like a special item or something. Yeah. And it's a little bit clu confusing. Yeah. Very confusing. But I do like a game. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, go on. I do think they're very good. I think the puzzles are great. I think that.
01:25:15
Speaker
I don't know why, so Capcom made these two games and then they would one more Zelda game and then they never made anymore. And it's like, why not? ah um I do think people give this, give these two games, they kind of discredit them a little bit by saying that it's the Zelda equivalent of there being two different versions of Pokemon.
01:25:40
Speaker
Yeah. And these games are much more different than any two. They're there. You get completely different items and powers and um stories. Mm hmm. And the the like puzzles and the world and your I guess your objectives are kind of the same, but. I think they're much more different than any Pokemon games I've played. For sure, for sure.
Twilight Princess Admiration
01:26:11
Speaker
All right, that's going to bring us to our final game, Twilight Princess.
01:26:16
Speaker
I'll let you start. I think Twilight Princess is a fantastic game. I think it is a much darker Zelda game than we had gotten in a long time. Okay.
01:26:29
Speaker
I really like outside of the first dungeon. I really like the dungeon, the dungeons in general. I like the items they give you. I love just um going around the desert area and being in the spinner. Yeah, like I love that that. That boss was so cool, though. It's like a it's basically a so giant set piece when you're um'm going around on the side and it's going around and around. That was really cool. I love in the. Did you put the Wii U version?
01:26:58
Speaker
Um, I played the whole game on the, um, master difficult, like the, whatever that was. The one that you needed the, um, it gave you like the hardest difficulty where you don't find hearts in the overworld. Oh, whatever they had to remember. yeah it was That was really fun. That was really cool. And, um, yeah, I just overall really enjoyed the game. Um, I liked the whole, it's like I said, it's very dark. I liked that whole aspect. Um, and I liked Mindo a lot.
01:27:24
Speaker
i yeah I like Midna, I love this game. i Well, I think I do. It's been a long time since I played it. Last time I played it, so I played it originally on the Wii and I loved it. I wanted to find every single heart piece and do every single side quest and do all this stuff. um And then when I replayed it on Wii U, I didn't like it quite as much.
01:27:47
Speaker
But I don't remember why. I think I didn't really feel like the um controls translated to but the the aiming and stuff didn't and going from the point pointer controls to the actual button controls. I didn't think it translated incredibly well.
01:28:07
Speaker
um But this has actually also been a game that I've been wanting to go back and replay because it's been such a long time since I played it that Wii U version came out in what, 2014, 2015? 2015, I think, 2015. So it would have, it's been 10 years. A decade, Jesus.
01:28:29
Speaker
that Wolf Link amiibo came with. Mm hmm. Do you have that one? I do. Yeah. Yeah, I do, too. Did it come with what did they sell some versions of it? that I don't think they sold it without it. I don't think they did. So it was just it it was just guaranteed. And the Wolf Link amiibo was actually really cool. I do remember um you scan the Wolf Link amiibo and it gave you access to that like special dungeon. Yep. And then however many hearts you finished that area with.
01:28:58
Speaker
it would save that many hearts to the wolf amiibo. And then when you scan the wolf amiibo in Breath of the Wild, it would summon the wolf with however many hearts you finish the dungeon with.
01:29:13
Speaker
Oh, I never knew that. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So you could end up I think if you've never used if ah if you never actually finished the dungeon or anything in Twilight Princess and just scan the a brand new Wolf Link amiibo in Breath of the Wild, I think it'll have like three hearts. But you could end up with a yeah wolf wolf link companion or a wolf companion in ah Breath of the Wild that has like 20 hearts.
01:29:43
Speaker
all right that's pretty cool yeah it was you know it was fun when nintendo did cool stuff like that yeah back back when the amiibo were like all the craze right are you are you an amiibo guy i was back oh my god yeah i i i was going to game stop at like That game. So I was going like, where are they? Where ever I was always annoyed. There were some that were like best buy exclude their best buy target and game stop. There would be like exclusive ones. And I was always so annoyed. um I think I have all of the ones I want now, though. I remember randomly getting like a Wii Fit trainer one and being like, oh, my gosh. and It was like in the box. And I like wouldn't open. it Right.
01:30:26
Speaker
Oh, you can't see him. I had my team up in this shelf. Yeah, I can see you can see some up there. And then I pulled out all the Zelda ones that are over there that I was using for her. I was going to use them for a video. and They've been sitting on that desk for two months, a video that never got made. um happened But yeah yeah, I guess you have anything else to say about Twilight Princess? No, I think that's going to do it for our tier list. Yeah.
01:30:54
Speaker
yeah Overall, Ledna Zelda, great series, great yeah bunch of games.
Outro and Future Metroid Prime Plans
01:30:58
Speaker
um James, thanks so much for joining me on this. Of course. Thank you for having me. having um you Want to plug your YouTube channel? We'll have it up on a graphic. Yeah. Okay, cool. yeah Yeah. Try to go find me on YouTube, um youtube dot.com. slash at James games and more I think I don't actually say it that loud out loud ever because I always just have it on the screen at the end of my videos I actually don't know what it is up his name on YouTube yeah but also if people want to ah keep up with me personally they can find me on ah Twitter Instagram and blue sky um and I think on all those I should just be James underscore solar so yeah
01:31:40
Speaker
Awesome. Well, again, thanks so much for joining me. Love talking. Love talking with you. Keep up with the amazing content. ah You're welcome to come back any time you would like. Of course. Yeah. Any time. Any time that you feel like you have something that I might be a good fit for. um I guess if you do anything kind of Metroid Prime ah with the new game coming out, keep me in mind for any of those. Oh, we we are planning on doing a big Metroid Prime thing because it will be my first time playing through them. And Birdo is a pretty big Metroid Prime fan, yeah if I remember correctly. He wants to come on to. Yeah. Yeah. Come on to.
01:32:11
Speaker
All right. Well, again, thanks for stopping by. Of course. Bye, everyone.