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The American Craftsman Podcast Ep. 4 | Pricing Projects
62 Plays5 years ago
On Episode 4 of The American Craftsman Podcast hosted by Greene Street Joinery we discuss pricing your work and give a sneak peek at our 1 year anniversary giveaway.
Beer of the Week (Mikkeller Raspberry Blush): https://shop.mikkellersd.com/products/raspberry-blush-4-pack
Tool of the Week (Barr Framing Chisel): https://barrtools.com/product/framing-chisel-1-12/
Greene Street Joinery is a custom design & build shop located in Monmouth County, New Jersey. We build multigenerational furniture with an eco-friendly and sustainable mindset.
Inspired and guided by the ideals of the Arts and Crafts movement, we believe in the use of traditional craftsmanship and simple, well-proportioned forms; sustainability and ethical practices; and importantly, taking pleasure in our work as craftsmen to create quality pieces of enduring value.
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Transcript
Podcast Format and Viewer Engagement
00:00:23
Speaker
How rich got his mojo back all right rich
00:00:29
Speaker
Okay, here we are, our fourth podcast. Let's say podcast. Our fourth podcast. A little bit of different format today. We're still doing the beer a week. That's a fan favorite, except for one person, but I'm not going to mention his name. But then we're going to answer a lot of questions. We had a couple of people that sent some questions to us, and there was one in particular that I thought was very, very good.
00:00:59
Speaker
So we'll probably spend most of our time talking about
Beer of the Week: Raspberry Blush
00:01:03
Speaker
that. And we also have the tool of the week. And do we have a grand food week? Yes, we do have a grand food week. I forgot. Oh yeah. So let's get the ball rolling. So let's introduce the beer of the week. Yeah. So beer of the week. That's me this week. Got a little something here. I don't know what you guys are going to think about this.
00:01:29
Speaker
So this is Raspberry Blush by McKeller. And if you're into beer, you may know who McKeller is. Kind of like a vagabond brewer. I think he's from...
00:01:45
Speaker
one of those Scandinavian countries. I don't know which one, but anyway, you know, he came to the US and he would brew at different breweries. So this was, uh, I guess he has his own brewery now in San Diego. McKeller brewing shows out, out of the biome. But this is a, uh, a Berliner vice with raspberries and coffee. I don't know what that means, but I'm going to taste it. Yeah. Berliner vice is usually like a little bit sour, I think that might be a little sour.
00:02:21
Speaker
Oh, you could definitely taste the raspberry. Hmm. I could taste the coffee. I tried to get something for Rich that wasn't so bitter, so you could try a weird beer that wasn't bitter.
00:02:35
Speaker
Raspberries and coffee. It almost tastes like a soda. That's a weird taste. Yeah. Soda beers. I mean, that's troublingly easy to drink. Only 4%. Oh, wow. I taste the coffee now. Yeah. 4% alcohol. It's good.
00:02:54
Speaker
But yeah, we'll talk about that a little later.
Tool of the Week: Framing Chisel
00:02:56
Speaker
I do want to say it was nice to get a bunch of questions because I think that's sort of the direction that we'd really like to go is to get a lot of questions every week and be able to answer the questions that way, you know, we sort of get a conversation going back and forth. But I want to hand it over to Rob for Tool of the Week. All right. We're going to start early. So Tool of the Week is
00:03:19
Speaker
My bar, one and a half inch framing chisel. A little bit about why I got this tool. I grew up in Brooklyn and had these wild dreams of moving to New England and being like a back woodsman.
00:03:38
Speaker
So in early 2000, I signed up for this timber framing class up in Badonim, Maine. And the class was essentially about, I think it was about 10 days where they taught you to cut timber frame joints. And essentially that small crew of students built someone's house.
00:04:03
Speaker
And at the end of the class, you raise this physical frame. Now this guy, because you've told us this story before, this guy had a real racket going. Oh yeah. Because what he does is he has all these students come in, they do the work, and he's collecting the check.
00:04:19
Speaker
Yes, he's actually charging a client for a timber frame for their house and a lot of these clients are kind of like do-it-yourselfers trying to do it on a budget so they'll get this frame built and then they'll do the infill whether it's gonna be straw bail or something like that on their own because you know all the craft and the work is in putting up that frame and actually raising it so
00:04:47
Speaker
I'd never heard of most of these tools that were needed. This class tuition came with a little tiny pamphlet, about three or four pages. It said, these are the tools you should probably show up with, had a plane. I have this big nice Starrett 18 inch square that I got for it. And in it, it also said, you're gonna need an inch and a half and a two inch framing chisel. And he listed
00:05:15
Speaker
Bar. And there's a cool little stamp there. It says B-A-R Bar. There's a little sign of a bear. And so I contacted Bar. I always thought that was his last name, but it's his first name. Bar Cordon. He's in Idaho. And this chisel's been one of my favorite tools ever since. I mean, I used it for that timber frame before I had chisel planes and things like that.
00:05:44
Speaker
You know, you could use it just about anywhere you would, you know, you can fit it. It's an inch and a half. It's always really sharp and it just, it feels so great in your hands and that's, that's kind of why I like it. It's a nice chisel. Yeah. The handle's a little bit shorter because you know, I've smashed it quite a bit because usually you break this thing out and you're, you're smacking it pretty hard. Um,
00:06:06
Speaker
So let me just, I wrote some things down about Bob because I think it's worth noting. He's been making these tools and I am working since 1977 and back in 85 he actually had a chance to apprentice with a genuine Japanese swordsmith. And if anybody knows, you know, tool making, metalworking, they know
00:06:32
Speaker
that the Japanese do it very, very well. And this is all hand forged. That means he heats it up and smacks it with a hammer. It's not drop forged. The benefit of hand forging is it creates some more carbon and the carbon is what helps cut, so it holds a really good edge.
00:06:55
Speaker
The other thing I could say about his tools, he sharpens them and sends them out. It's ready to rock and roll when you get that chisel. And he'll service them too. Not for free, but you can send them back and he'll make that thing razor sharp again. And I came with this little heavy duty sheath. So there you go.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah, I remember I went on the bar website obviously because I've seen yours and I've seen another couple guys on online use them. When I was looking for new chills as I took a look, the price is pretty fair too. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I think it was like 150 bucks.
00:07:35
Speaker
for this chisel and it's a lifetime tool. Yeah, that's got the steel of four or five big chisels, three quarter inch chisels. I like the shape of this blade. It's got this little swoop here down to the bevel. Yeah, it feels good, doesn't it? Yeah. It does sort of seem like a hybridization between a Western chisel and a Japanese chisel. Yeah. It's just a fun tool to own.
00:08:07
Speaker
Even the handle does kind of look Asian, doesn't it? It has a Japanese... The Japanese use a lot of the... There's a name for it, a specific type of white oak. Which that looks like white oak or beech. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:08:22
Speaker
So if you have any questions about it, I encourage you to look up Bar. B-A-R-R, I think he calls it Bar Specialty Tools. Check him out. Does he make hammers and stuff too? I think he's broadened out, you know, to quite a few things. So yeah, very cool. Thanks a lot. What we got next?
Tool Discussion: Veritas Mini Square
00:08:43
Speaker
Oh well, we come to the petty griper the weekend. This time it's not the man to my left, it's the man to my further left. I'm a pretty good griper myself. Take it away, Jeff.
00:08:59
Speaker
So, I'm sure you've all seen the advertisement on Instagram or Facebook, the Veritas Mini Square. This is an inch and a half by inch and a half, we'll call it Speed Square. I can't for the life of me think of a situation where I would want to use this particular square.
00:09:23
Speaker
Just seems... Ridiculous to me. What if you were building a dollhouse and you were making a staircase? Yeah, I have a... Not a combination square, but a, um... What the hell do you call that kind of square? What, the adjustable? Yeah, yeah, yeah, um... T-square? No, you know, not a combo square, but a... Doesn't have a 45. Oh, you mean that little thing you carry in your pocket? Yeah, we all have one.
00:09:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's that thing with Jake. What the hell is that called? I don't know. I'm at a loss. It's on the tip of my tongue. Anyway. Um, yeah. So Lee Valley Veritas has a commercial where this guy, Vic Teslin says, this is the most versatile tool in my shop.
00:10:11
Speaker
a one-and-a-half inch square. Yeah, I'd like to see the versatility because I have a regular, the Veritas Precision Square is a great square. It's like a mini framing square. I think we showed it on the second or third episode. Yeah, we use them. Yeah, that's a great square. This, I don't see the point. Speed square, we have one over here. It's plastic. It's used for marking crap, rough lumber. You want to drop it on the ground or... Write on it with a crayon or a magic wand. You get the road across the shop if you want.
00:10:38
Speaker
inch and a half aluminum square. I don't see the point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That six inch plastic is about the perfect thing. Yeah. If you know a speed square for me is for framing. It's not a woodworking tool. It's not even a finished carpentry tool. When I was a finished carpenter, we used combo squares or try squares. I don't understand the marking of 45. I couldn't tell you the last time I had to mark a 45 and
00:11:06
Speaker
Cut to it or something. I don't know What do you think of the the gradations for the other degree angles? Yeah, and even on the Lee Valley website it says yeah these
00:11:19
Speaker
Graduations for angles aren't very accurate. And then why are they on there? Because it's too tight. I know. It's this big. Yeah. So my buddy Kevin was kind of ribbing me yesterday telling me I, you know, joking around saying I should buy one because we've talked about it before. But no, no way I'm buying it. Stupid invention.
00:11:42
Speaker
I don't like it. If you have one, write us and tell us what you're using it for. Yeah, tell me and send pictures. Yeah. I mean, at 10 bucks. OK, maybe for the novelty, you sit it on the wall. But I'm not buying it. What about you, Rich? No, I have no need for it. Listen, I don't use a square, so.
00:12:02
Speaker
I'm the king of small and mini tools around here. I thought you would like those small. I can't see a use for it. It's a little bit like a toy almost. Yeah. For marking small pieces, I think is kind of what they're marketing it as, but can mark small pieces with an 18 inch. Yeah. And I, you know, I love that little four inch adjustable square.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah, well I won't show it because maybe we'll talk about another time, but Veritas has a really nice sliding marking tool that we... Oh yeah, that one. We all have one now, yeah. I can't believe I still can't think of what that type of square is called. Well, we got 45 millimeters. What is this called?
00:12:52
Speaker
Why can't I think of the name? That's not a sliding T bevel. No, it's not a T bevel. T square, I mean. No, it's a T. It has a name. It's not combo square, but. Gee, don't don't we look intelligent, don't we? Yeah, it's going to kill me. Not a T square. No, it's not a T square. T square is like for. You know, T square goes like this, like a T. Isn't that a T?
00:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, that looks like a T. I don't know. Let's see how fast the internet connection is here. When I find out what the name is, it's gonna kill me because... Yeah.
00:13:32
Speaker
See, Rich and I, we're old enough to do it, we just don't care. Exactly. I look at it like this. We forget stuff all the time. It's square. It's square. Double square. A double square. I knew that. Double square. We've forgotten more than that. That's true. Yeah, if you're in the market for a double square, these PEC, which stands for Products Engineering Corporation, I think.
00:13:57
Speaker
You get these blemished on eBay for like 20 bucks. This is probably about an $80 square. Yeah, that's what this is. It just has a little...
00:14:05
Speaker
little scratch on it. So you get about an $80 square for 20, 25 bucks made in the USA. Um, I'd say just one small step below stare it. So yeah. Yeah. Cause we have some stare at stuff in here to compare it to stare tape measures, which are actually not made, um, by stare at really if they're made in China in the factory. But, but we got, we have stare at, uh, the C word again, the C word. Yes.
00:14:33
Speaker
Yeah. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just some of the tools aren't that great. Well, you did that survey. You looked at that. What is the most trusted brands coming out of countries and who's the most trusted country to do something? And the top of the list was Germany.
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, it was like the most revered made in the fill-in-the-blank countries were Germany, Switzerland, USA was about 15, I think. Italy was up towards the top 20. Yeah, I think it was only the top 20. And China wasn't on there.
00:15:09
Speaker
No. Japan was pretty high on this. Yes, Japan was. Yeah. You know, it's all about quality control. Most factories operate the same because it's a very, you know, there's a recipe on how to make something. And as long as there's someone saying this is how you make it and making sure that it's made that way, well, then it could be made really anywhere. Right. It's not the Chinese people. No.
00:15:36
Speaker
It's the company that's setting up shop in China and they're setting the standards. Where that company is Chinese, American, Swiss, it doesn't matter. They tell the folks at the Chinese factory, here are the parameters we want you to build. Make it like this. Right. Here's the price point. So I'm glad we got that straight. Yes. Oh crap.
00:16:00
Speaker
I'm a little angry today, so if I start ranting and raving, I just wanted to let you know that my meds came in late yesterday, so I didn't really get to take a chance to take them. We'll touch on that later. Jeff, why don't you read the first viewer question?
Pricing Projects for Beginners
00:16:21
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:16:22
Speaker
I've got this question in yesterday, really good question. This is from a gentleman, Al Head Woodco, and I think he's close to us in New Jersey. He asks, pricing projects is something I struggle with, as I'm sure others do. Is there a specific formula you guys like to use when it comes to sending out quotes?
00:16:43
Speaker
I feel I often underbid a project on labor just to get the project to build my portfolio, experience, and land a little money to reinvest in the shop. It's obvious that people have certain, usually unrealistic, prices in mind most of the time. Thoughts? Also, something to keep in mind would be the hobbyist versus pro as I know requirements are different. So thanks for the question. Who wants to take it first? Okay. A customer having unrealistic
00:17:13
Speaker
price in their head no way yeah that is this is a very very interesting question and I think it depends on your state of not your state of mind but your state of your company and what you're looking what you're willing to give up as opposed to achieve most companies
00:17:39
Speaker
If you're already a company, you basically have a value that you have on what you do.
00:17:46
Speaker
And so you don't want to lower that value. But on the other hand, if you're trying to survive, I can see where people or shops start taking jobs on that they don't want to have just to keep the lights on. So it's a very, very tough thing to do. Because of my wife's fat pension, I can afford to just turn down jobs. And I could be picky. But if I was raising four kids,
00:18:14
Speaker
And I needed to keep my family fed. Yeah, I would start looking at jobs and saying, OK, I can bite the bullet on this one and I'll build it for less. And and I actually I have done that in the past, but I can see what that that comes into play. Let me ask you a question, Rich. Now, if people if shops start engaging in that sort of behavior, doesn't that drive the price down for everybody? Sure does. Sure does.
00:18:41
Speaker
I know a shop and I'm gonna mention the name where his attitude is. He was once asked a question at this woodworking guild show. He goes, out of 10 jobs a day you bid on, how many jobs do you expect to get? And he waved his hand. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. All 10 of them.
00:19:02
Speaker
Now, that's really unrealistic because if you can get 10 jobs out of 10 bids, then your pricing is way, way lower than what you should be selling for. But that's his attitude. Well, unless the product is total crap. Yeah, and he gets away with it. But he hasn't pushed the product that's being crap. He pushes that being custom made. There goes that word again. The other C word. Custom. Custom. Yeah.
00:19:29
Speaker
But it's very, if I had this as a hobby,
00:19:35
Speaker
I would probably make some kind of changes and say, yeah, I'll take this job on just to build my portfolio, like the gentleman from Owlhead Wood Company says, just to get that picture together and so I can add it to my portfolio and show different clients and all that. But if you keep taking on those jobs, your word of mouth is gonna be from that customer you just got ripped off from
00:20:03
Speaker
and they're gonna say, yeah, go to this guy, he's cheap. He'll do it for cheap. And when do you ever recover from that? It's tough, it's very tough. Yeah, and then, you know, that's when guys start looking for, guys that start out with the best intentions and they can't get paid enough for their product, that's when they start cutting corners because you've locked yourself into this sort of price bracket that says, okay, he does it for this amount. Well, how can I get it done for that amount and still make money?
00:20:32
Speaker
So they say, well, I'll just cut a little bit here, cut a little bit there and you can really dig yourself into a hole. Yeah, sure. I think the biggest thing with this question is hobbyist versus pro. There's a big difference because as a hobbyist, you get into it as a hobby. It's something you do because you like to do it. It's fun. You like to learn about whatever your hobby is. So any chance you can get.
00:20:57
Speaker
to build something and break even or even just cover, you know, offset some of the material cost. Well, that's a plus because you're getting to do your hobby for less than it would cost you otherwise. Exactly. If you want to build, I know this guy, he's built like some Maloof chairs and stuff. We couldn't build a Maloof chair because there's no way we're going to get 20 grand for a chair because it's going to cost us 20 grand to make it. We're not saying Maloof's company or whatever the other guy is.
00:21:27
Speaker
so yeah as a hobbyist you can sort of make these decisions to to either make very little or even lose money and it doesn't hurt you but you know we have to keep the lights on we have to keep jobs coming in the door pay ourselves pay the bills we don't have a choice but to feed the dogs stick to our guns yeah
00:21:45
Speaker
Well, just one quick question. And this is probably good for Rob to answer. We kind of bypass this one thing you really wanted to know is there a specific formula we use to send out quotes. And I'll let Rob touch on that. Yeah. Well, definitely.
Estimating Project Costs
00:22:02
Speaker
And it's really the simplest.
00:22:05
Speaker
Formula there is, it's time and materials. Now, this is where estimating comes into being as its own separate skill set, learning to estimate a job. So what we do is we draw the job up first. Somebody comes to us, oh yeah, we want a bedroom set, we want a bedroom, two night tables, and a seven drawer chest.
00:22:31
Speaker
This is what I want it to look like. So we bust out SketchUp or we're working into Fusion 360 and we'll get a 3D model, working model of what this proposal is going to be. Now from this drawing we can extrapolate
00:22:48
Speaker
All the materials we're going to need. We've been around enough to know and we can have a little calculator. It says, all right, we need x board foot of this material, that material. This is the hardware. And we put it straight onto a simple spreadsheet. That adds up our material cost. We put the tax on there. And this is exactly what we show the client. We don't mark it up. We just, there might be, like it might be rounded up a little bit so that we can
00:23:16
Speaker
just add in the time it takes us to handle and receive all the materials because that could be a day or two and get rid of all the packaging. Yeah, it's a lot of work actually. And now comes the trickier part which is the labor. In the pro shop we have a salary. So that is what we're going to call our cost.
00:23:37
Speaker
Rich is my Jeff salary for the week that if we can do it in a week, we know our cost. Now, how much can we make above that basic cost? Because now we got to keep the lights on liability insurance.
00:23:52
Speaker
have all of your QuickBooks and all the other subscriptions that we need to keep the business running. Yeah, because that cost is just our take-home pay for our homes. It doesn't account for things that we're going to use in the shop or anything like that. You know, God forbid we lose a piece of machinery, because it happens. And then three, four, five thousand dollars later,
00:24:17
Speaker
How many sanders have we lost in the last couple of months? We're down to, what, four festival sanders. And we bought a new one. And I think we had five or six before that. Yeah, we had six. So we're down three. Somebody was blamed for breaking all those.
00:24:35
Speaker
Well, I mean, in fairness, one was almost 20 years old. And they get used to it a lot. Sometimes they're running all day. So to just wrap that question up, we got time and material. So the time is how this is where your experience has to play a part. How long should it take us? How long will it really take us?
00:25:03
Speaker
And when you add those numbers up, can we sell the job for that amount of money? Because that's really going to come into being it. It's always a discussion because the fixed costs are the fixed costs. So we come up with the materials. Here's this kitchen job. All right. It's going to cost us six thousand dollars to buy all the material for the kitchen. That's pretty typical. Five to six thousand out of our pocket. Now we know just looking at the picture. All right. The size of this kitchen.
00:25:31
Speaker
Any kitchen's probably gonna be four to six weeks. Where's this job gonna fall in that? What are the details? How many drawer boxes compared to doors? How, you know, what are the small little things that are gonna add a week or subtract a week? We make our best guess and we come up with the number. All right.
00:25:50
Speaker
Wow, that comes out to $55,000. Does that look like a $55,000 job? Can we sell this job for 55? Do they sound like a $55,000 client? Right. What's our bottom number that we can still feel comfortable and not be making some Faustian bargain to get this job? Because as Rich alluded to, most of our clients
00:26:16
Speaker
Our old clients, like when we do a job, we fully expect we're going to do more jobs for those people. That's because, you know, we're proud of the work we do. And that's a basic truth for us. Yes. So if we, you know, just knock a price down on the first job to get our foot in the door, what's going to happen when we try and price that job realistically the next time?
00:26:40
Speaker
Right? And there's nowhere to hide it because it's all itemized. We send out an itemized breakdown of cost to every client. Yeah. We're going to spend this much time milling, this much time fabricating, this many days installing, this much time doing this, that and the other. So it's not just a number on a piece of paper. And I think that helps.
00:27:00
Speaker
We show up to a client's home with a proposal. It's full 3D presentations that you can navigate through the whole thing to scale. Full breakdown costs and labor materials. We write up exactly what we're going to do. So there's no surprises anywhere.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very labor intensive process to prepare these proposals. So what we've begun doing is actually really vetting all of the clients. Yeah, tell them about that. That's a great thing. It's on the website now before it was just on our Google Drive. So it's a Google Doc, has some questions about timeline, style.
00:27:43
Speaker
Rough measurements, specific functions of the piece, budget, most importantly. So when we get a call from a client, got one today, I said, yeah, head over to the website, fill this out, and I'll take a look at it. We'll give you a call. That's how we get our information, compile it, and start the process.
00:28:02
Speaker
So we look at it, I won't get into specifics, but I mean, the budget is so low that we couldn't even buy the material for the job. So rather than take all the time, it's very important to have the budget conversation first, because we could have invested, I mean, you're talking a full, for something simple like this, probably an entire day for a preliminary design, break down a cost, scope of work letter.
00:28:25
Speaker
then that money's gone. We're not doing the job because we can't do it for that price. And it's so low that they're not gonna, even if we come back with the real price, it's so astronomically different from what they think it's gonna cost that there's no way. I mean, it's time wasted. How many bids have we written before this, you know, before we started doing this that just went out and
00:28:45
Speaker
I'm talking weeks of time wasted over the last year. Right, because we're always looking to put our best foot forward, so we would never just send out some sort of off-the-cuff number, yeah, that's a $12,500 job. We pride ourselves on our design work especially, and that's what separates us. So we would send out the whole thing that we spent two, three days working on, and then the price would be
00:29:13
Speaker
five times what the client's budget was. So Jeff came up with that idea to vet the clients first in a polite way. We're not being pretentious or anything like that.
00:29:28
Speaker
We couldn't afford to stay in business, the three of us, if we had to spend all the time that it takes to prepare a full proposal for every inquiry. Yeah, because we're owner operators. We're the ones doing everything. We're designing it, building it, finishing it, installing it. So any time that we're spending on the computer doing a proposal, well, we're not in the shop building something in.
00:29:51
Speaker
We'll touch on it later but it's very important that you have some time outside of work so we can't work ourselves to death. There's one other little thing here. Is that part of his question about people's usually unrealistic idea of what it should cost?
00:30:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think we've talked about that. Everyone knows that that is reality, unfortunately. And every job we do, we're educating one more person on what it really costs to build something. My quick question to you, Rob. Do you think that the hobbyist is hurting the professional?
00:30:32
Speaker
Well, there is a, I mean, a hobbyist is typically, you know, they're not concerned with cost at all. You're doing it for the love of it. So you're able to spend, let's say 500 hours making something, you know, one piece of furniture where, you know, we could never afford to do that. You know, there's, there are certain compromises that we have to make as far as time and materials just to make it feasible.
00:31:02
Speaker
I would say they don't hurt because that's a one-off. The thing that the hobbyists can't do really is produce work quickly. So a hobbyist isn't gonna make a set of kitchen cabinets, probably not even a bedroom set because it would take them a long time. Typically they're doing something else, nine to five. So unless somebody is gonna wait a year and a half for a bedroom set,
00:31:30
Speaker
Or, you know, less money. I would say no. In fact, it may elevate people's tastes a bit because hobbyists are making some of the best stuff out there. Yeah. I give example of that gentleman from Owl Head. Yeah. Full on quality work. I saw his pictures. Very, very good quality work. Yeah. So it's a different thing. Yeah.
00:31:52
Speaker
I mean, we had a client reach out looking for a, what was it? A sort of like a, not a console, a buffet maybe. And it was a picture from someone else and I saw the watermark, so I went on the guy's website. This beautiful cherry piece, you know, sort of mid-century style, $750.00. Yeah, we had a little heart attacks.
00:32:18
Speaker
I'll take two. Yeah, take ten. So, you know, it puts unfair, not unfair, but it puts unrealistic expectations in people's minds sometimes when they see a price from someone that, you know, they're not doing this to feed their family. They're doing it, you know, because they enjoy it and we enjoy it too. But I also think that the hobbyist doesn't really know how to price out their work, too.
00:32:43
Speaker
You know, they really don't, they don't know the whole, they don't know the fixed costs you have, the hidden costs that you have to take care of. And. Well, the value on the time is a big thing. They're going to say, well, I do this because I love it. I could spend my weekend or at nights doing this while I could be doing something else. How much do they get paid at their nine to five? That's the value of your time. I mean, we. Or do they have a nice fat pension? Well, yeah. I mean, some people married into it. Like, yeah, must be nice.
00:33:14
Speaker
Thank you, dear.
00:33:34
Speaker
massage it if you have to. We do it all the time. So that'll give you a good starting point and you work from there, whether you can get a little bit more or you have to get a little bit less because either you're slow or you really just want to get the job. So I would start there with a spreadsheet. If you want to get started estimating hours for your work, start with something like days or a half a day. Don't get too caught up in, well, this is going to take me an hour and 15 minutes.
00:34:02
Speaker
Yeah. And if you're a hobbyist, you can, um, underestimate and be okay. We have to either have to get it done or bite the, or, you know, what you and you doesn't eat. Well, we'll go on to one that's a little bit lighter. Yeah. This is from our buddy Frank Carpenter, one three on Instagram out in San Diego. Uh, he asks, Frank's a good guy. What is your next big tool purchase?
00:34:31
Speaker
I have a combo in mind. A part floor model drill press with a kegger on the bottom. No, I think the mind would be a drill press. I always wanted to have a nice floor model drill press on a bench top. It's small enough to fit in the shop. You can put it on wheels and move it around. Right now we have a bench top model, which is in the corner of the shop and it's somewhat of a pain in the rear end.
00:35:01
Speaker
It's right next to your bench. Yeah, your bench is kind of like overgrown out. Yeah, exactly. When people come over to bother me or use the drill press, they kind of annoy me. Get chips all over your bench. I like to be alone. All those chips that come off the, you know, we just leave them right there. So, but I think it's a good tool to have. You don't use it that much, but you know what? You'd be surprised. You will use it a lot. It gets used every day, I bet. Oh, yeah. That's what I would get. I'd get a drill press.
00:35:26
Speaker
I like that answer. I'd say I don't. Companies out there that want to sponsor us and send us one of your tools so we could test it out. Give us give us a shout. Yeah. Powermatic Laguna. Yeah. Whoever.
00:35:39
Speaker
I was going to say, I don't think we're making any, any large tool purchases anytime soon. What was the last thing we got? Big tool wise, probably the saw stop. We have a three, three horsepowers of five. I think it's three. It's the, it's the yeah. Three horsepower industrial, um, the saw stop with the car, the sliding crosscut. So that was our last big tool purchase back in. Yeah, maybe March.
00:36:07
Speaker
But if I had if I was able to just pick something I think what would serve us best is a lime boring machine
00:36:16
Speaker
doing a kitchen, you know, there's a lot of shelf holes, and we actually, we put less holes than most people. So we use, it's kind of like a 32 millimeter spacing, but we'll skip every other, so it's more like a 64, so it's, they're whatever, it's probably, two and a quarter inches, and only about the middle eight inches get shelf pin holes. We put sleeves in them so they don't get worn out by the pins, it looks nice.
00:36:46
Speaker
But it's a lot of work because we're drilling them all by hand. So a line boring machine, you take out every other bit and use that. So I think that would be a big time saver. It's a little, little large for our shop, but there are some small ones. Yeah, I could see that actually wedging its way in here one day. Well, I'm going last and mine's a biggie.
00:37:08
Speaker
My dream, my dream is a bobcat with forks. Does that count? Lodge machine, lodge machine, what's the question? Big tool, big tool. That's a tool, that's a tool. You know what, you are a tool. I could just see inside the shop tool. Oh, I'm in a pocket inside at night.
00:37:33
Speaker
Right now, the shop, it's probably about 300 feet from the street, right? At least maybe 250. Why don't you go pace it off right now? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a good 250 to the street. And now, the trucks that deliver all the really heavy stuff, sometimes they're over the road, semis, even those big steak beds, they can't get back here. So, you know,
00:37:57
Speaker
When we built the confession is we got almost eight hundred board feet of white oak. It was more than that. Well, there was eight hundred a five quarter. Yeah. Alone. Yeah. So we have to take it off the truck by hand. We put it at the time we would put it into the back of my pickup truck because it had the eight foot bed and we take like.
00:38:19
Speaker
two, three trips back here to our actual wood shed and offload it all by hand. Plywood, same thing. We'll take it out by hand. We got those 20 sheets, you know, and we'll put it out on some saw horses and then just carry them back here.
00:38:37
Speaker
My dream, of course, is to have something, you know, not quite a forklift because it's a little bit rough to terrain between here and the street. It's a one trick pony, too. Yeah. Yeah. So we get that Bobcat with the nice big all terrain wheels, a shovel and forks out front.
00:38:58
Speaker
Oh, man. You won't be able to fit through with the plywood going lengthwise. You have to go... No, the gate's 10 feet. Is it? Yeah, yeah, right through. What about six feet? You're paying for gas because you'll be here all weekend driving donuts in the backyard.
00:39:16
Speaker
That's it. That's my tool. You better get a helmet. Yeah, no, I made it this far without a helmet. Well, actually the one that counted I was wearing a helmet. Yeah. So that was a good one. Thank you, Frank. Caught up until one, three. One of you guys want to read the next one from a buddy, Tom McGuire, another Jersey guy, I think.
00:39:38
Speaker
I'll read this question because I really don't have an answer for this one. Have any recommendations for LEDs in cabinets that turn on when you open the door? Get a flashlight.
00:39:53
Speaker
All right, listen, Tom, I got the answer for you. I actually looked it up. It's on Rockler. Oh, Rockler. Yeah. That's another great... You got a Rockler Pro, aren't you? Yeah, I'm a Rockler Pro. They have these little clip-on fixtures that clip right onto the hinge. You put a little battery in there so there's no wiring, so you have two. And they're kind of like miniature versions of those spotlights you might wear on your hat or something like that. They're cheap.
00:40:22
Speaker
So they're inexpensive. I don't know. You could probably interchange those words. I think it was like six bucks or four of them. If you're a pro though, you get them for $5.99. Yeah, exactly. They shave that extra penny off. So sign up pro. Yeah. Sign up, get those emails. So there you go. Tom McGuire. Look it up. Rockler.
00:40:43
Speaker
And become a pro. You get, what, five percent off on your purchase? No, no. I don't think you get anything off, but you do get a couple of cents. You get the pro pricing. Yeah, you get to call yourself the Rockler Pro.
00:40:58
Speaker
Well, that's worth something. Yeah. I mean, there are contact switches. Maybe you want to touch on that. I was going to say, I've, as a trim carpenter, put a lot of them in closet and pantry doors. You know, it's a little plate with a pressure, you know, a little button when the door is closed and it depresses the button. Lights turn off. When you open the door, it turns on. So there's probably.
00:41:18
Speaker
Something similar for cabinets, I'd have to assume. For cabinet lighting, we use ATX LED. They're down in Austin, Texas. Really good low voltage, all DC low voltage lighting. So they're even making bath fans now.
00:41:32
Speaker
Oh yeah, now you can tell them what you want. They'll do a full lighting plan. We use them for the confessionals, four inch cans, dimmers, I mean really nice stuff. Nice people, really, really nice people. It was like a luxury hotel. And they're wafers, they're super thin. Yeah, yeah. So you got a couple of choices there, Tom. They're out there.
00:41:57
Speaker
Let me read the last question or is it? No, there's another question. All right. You mentioned about not working with designers or architects very much. How are you getting most of your work? Word of mouth? Any advertising? Jordan Hawbaker wants to know. Thank you, Jordan. Go ahead, Jeff. You want to take it?
00:42:16
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. We don't really work with designers. We don't really work with architects. We'd love to have the opportunity. It just doesn't seem to ever work out in our favor. We put a lot of bids out, but don't seem to get very many calls back.
00:42:32
Speaker
because of pricing, I'm assuming. But the way we get most of our work is definitely word of mouth. Old clients either coming back, let's repeat business, I guess not word of mouth, but old clients telling friends and family about us.
00:42:49
Speaker
And the other one would be Instagram, honestly, is a huge driver of leads, not always quality leads, but definitely a lot of leads. So I try and invest a decent amount of time in Instagram and putting up good pictures and interacting with people.
00:43:09
Speaker
And advertising wise, here and there, I'll throw up a sponsored post, not a sponsored, like a boosted post on Instagram, 50 bucks or something, but they haven't really turned any results. So I'd say just put in the sweat equity, try and grow your social media. It seems to be a good driver of business.
00:43:32
Speaker
I think that's the only thing right now that helps you get business is social media. What about flyers? Well, I'm working on something right now. You know how the old guys used to stand out in corners with the little thing they used to wear? They call that a sandwich board. Sandwich board. Well, Rob's going to be out there on Route 36, starting next week. Honk. Honk when you see me. Honk when you see him. And you're like a foam tree costume.
00:44:03
Speaker
tree of life. It's neither dress is a foam tree of life. You have a lot of birds. Okay. We love the birds. We don't want to work with designers, architects. I don't think designers want to work with us per se, because I think we offer a little bit of a
00:44:28
Speaker
Challenge challenge competition. Yeah, we sort of fly in the face of a lot of and I'm not talking about all designers There's some great designers out there. Absolutely working with some great designers, but your typical lady you just
00:44:45
Speaker
Decided to become a designer because she was bored being a housewife Those people I don't mean it that way Hey, yeah, we know
00:45:01
Speaker
Yes, we did. We have a sketch. I don't know if it's still hanging in the shot. Oh, no. I finally got rid of it. Do I gotta talk to the lawyers again? HR. HR. No, but it's just so we kind of like a competition to them and they don't like it. So a lot of designers say it's this is what I want. You build it this way and that's it. So they will not look at any kind of alternatives, even though
00:45:29
Speaker
The alternatives are probably a little bit better than what they want, but it's ego. We have ego too, but.
00:45:37
Speaker
We still bend our rules around. We've shot some designs full of holes from some designers that have reached out to us. And it's not usually greeted with a positive response. Yeah. I think what Rich is getting at. I mean, we talk about it a lot, because it's a little bit of a sore point that we can't seem to develop relationships with other peers.
00:46:03
Speaker
from, you know, similar trades and designers and architects would be perfect examples of that. And honestly it is a bit of, you know, almost a conflict because
00:46:19
Speaker
We talked about this early on, you know, my background is actually in design and what we do is we come to these jobs with an original concept in mind, not the concept we use three jobs back, whereas most designers
00:46:37
Speaker
in the suburban market here. They're assembling photos from social media, Pinterest, Instagram, and just sort of combining something that's already there and then going to, all right, I know these cabinets are 24 inches, 36 inches, and then I'll just line them up.
00:46:57
Speaker
And we don't accept that at all. We actually push ourselves to come up with something distinct of every single job. And so oftentimes what happens is we kind of show up to the client what they're paying somebody good money to do. We haven't worked with a designer yet that doesn't just come through with a pencil on paper.
00:47:25
Speaker
And we're doing 3D proposals. Yeah, some of them, but 99% of them. Yeah. And we also know how things work because we're the engineers on the job as well for our end of it.
00:47:43
Speaker
a clash of personalities and egos in a sense. And we're very easy to get along with. As brash and outspoken and sort of, I don't know, opinionated as we are, we're very, very humble and easy to work with. And people do love working with us once they've had the opportunity. We're all about working for the client.
00:48:12
Speaker
And that's that's the end result. Yeah, you can call me day or night. I'm gonna hand out my phone number in a little while. So If you want to talk to me should text give me a call you you angry ladies out there Good luck touching any of that pension. Yeah the other part that that's interesting with designers is that they used to working with
00:48:38
Speaker
a person already that bills their so-called custom cabinets and they know how much they can mark up and they're not willing to just go with someone like us because our prices are a little bit higher and they're not going to get the same cut as they would if they were going with XYZ cabinet shop.
00:49:00
Speaker
And the truth is they could sell what they've already been selling. There's no upside for most of the designers in their mind. They don't see the upside to, you know, expanding potential, expanding quality and things like that. They're comfortable in their routine. Yeah, we've seen a lot of people in different trades that are, you know, it's the same thing. They work with the same five builders and everybody is just
00:49:31
Speaker
They're churning it out. Yeah, they're on a hamster wheel. We could very easily be slammed in a big, huge shop, cranking out frameless kitchens if we wanted to do that. But I don't want to do that. Yeah, I mean, we've made our choices and we're happy with them. And I think that's actually a pretty good segue to the last question.
00:49:54
Speaker
Yeah, this is from our real good buddy Manny. How important is mental health at work?
Balancing Work and Mental Health
00:50:02
Speaker
I mean, we talk about it. I mean, it's part of our daily conversation, not in a serious way always, although it's a serious topic that we give plenty of credence to.
00:50:18
Speaker
It's one of the main reasons we're here doing what we do and how we do it and where we do it and why we do it.
00:50:28
Speaker
As the questions sort of allude to, there's a lot that goes into trying to make a small custom shop like this work function and allow us to feed ourselves and our family and maybe just maybe have enough to lease a truck or something. Yeah, buy a nice new saw.
00:50:49
Speaker
Right, right. Plenty of compromises have to be made on some things, but where we don't compromise is in the quality of our life here in the shop because this is it. This is what it boils down to, spending eight, six, 10, 12 hours, however many hours a day we are here together, five to seven days a week.
00:51:14
Speaker
This has gotta be enjoyable. It can't be a grind because that's not how we wanna go through life.
00:51:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's not to say that we don't have our issues at times. We do have... Of course. We still butt heads together a little bit, but it doesn't last. But that's natural. It is, exactly. It should happen. I was told a long time ago, if you don't like what you do, then quit your job and find something else that you love to do because your mental health is very important. The stress levels can kill you. Yeah, you can't... I mean, it's a cliche, but you can't buy happiness.
00:51:53
Speaker
So if you're not happy at work and you're going there just to make money, well, you're not going to be happy. Yeah. Unless you got a pension. That's true. I mean, sometimes people there, they don't, you know, it's always easy. The grass is always greener on the other side. And when people just see a sort of a.
00:52:11
Speaker
On a surface level, they can be quite envious. They come in. We have a small shop, but you guys got it made out here, right? It's it's I mean, there's trees all around. There's windows on all four. The whole walls are windows on all four sides. It's air conditioned in the summer and dry and heated in the winter. We work in shorts and it's clean and we got mats all over the floors and bucket full of pretzels, bag of peanuts.
00:52:39
Speaker
Oh, you know what? I might have found the perfect pretzel. I'll touch on that later on. That might be a whole podcast in and of itself. But we sacrifice so much for that. I mean, even our wives, I mean, they're what they want to know when the next checks coming, you know, and because we don't make as much as we could if we were out there grinding it out, working for somebody else. Yeah. But we're working in a different way. Yeah.
00:53:06
Speaker
At what price? I mean, we come home, we've worked a longer day, we're grouchy, so we don't have the emotional availability. So there's all those... See, my wife doesn't watch these. It's not that we're not concerned with work. We are.
00:53:35
Speaker
We do worry about the next job coming in, but it's not something that we can sit here and cry about. We have to do something about it. That means either do something that's beneficial to the shop or maybe it's beneficial for to a family member.
00:53:52
Speaker
We're very proactive. I mean, that's for sure. You just can't let it get you down. And it's easier said than done. I totally understand that from coming from a gentleman whose wife's got a big fat pension. But no, in all seriousness, it's. You really got to love what you're doing no matter what, whether you're shuffling, shuffling horse manure or
00:54:18
Speaker
putting mail in a slot or carrying mail around or delivering packages. You gotta love what you do. Your life's too short, believe me. And some days here we're running things through a sander or a planer or hand sanding for hours and hours and hours on end. So it's not like the work is always glorious. I mean, most of the time it's not at all. But the process in and of itself and getting to work with each other
00:54:47
Speaker
It's that's the reward because um, you know, we pull for each other we kid each other mercilessly
00:54:57
Speaker
Except we don't go get somebody ice cream when they eat their wine. There is a line. There is a line. Did you know it's Wednesday two for one at Carvel? Yeah, two for one at Carvel. Is it just this one or all of them? I think it's a nationwide thing. I'm going to have to stop on the way home. You know, I'm not bringing any in tomorrow. The Carvel ice cream sandwich has a cult-like status here. Yeah, I haven't had one in so long that Rob had one in his house a few years ago. Yeah.
00:55:26
Speaker
And it was like, oh my god, this is really good. And they disappeared since then, just like UFOs. You guys do a lot of snacking. We do. We do snack, like, a lot. A lot, yeah. But we're burning calories here. That's true. Not as much as we would hope, but...
00:55:44
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to say that, I mean, I know how hard it can be to work in a job you do like and be in a poor environment and how much that can have a toll on your mental health. Co-workers. Yeah, so it's not even necessarily what you're doing. It could be your surrounding and setting, who you're working with, all that. Yeah, one person, if they're in the position that could influence your state of being at that job,
00:56:13
Speaker
Really, really make you dread spending those eight hours at that place. Yeah. Or being undervalued or mistreated in some way. Mm hmm. Yeah. Don't don't go through your whole life working at a place that you just regret. You know what? I'm up there in age. I know you can't tell, but I probably had regret. I had regrets from jobs that I kept, kept that. I got a few.
00:56:42
Speaker
I don't know that one. You know what I'm saying? You look at yourself, you be 68 years old, you say, God, why didn't I just do the job or take that job I really love to do? Why did I just keep doing the same damn thing that I hate getting up for every morning and going to work? Yeah, don't do it. Yeah. So screw yourself over. Manny, here's the answer. How important is mental health at work?
00:57:10
Speaker
Very important. Top of the list. Top of the list, I'd say. It is, yeah, yeah. I mean, would you say it's more important than salary? Well, yeah, you know, there's a threshold there. As long as you've got a roof over your head and you're eating and you can take care of yourself, then yeah. Would you work a job you hate just to get a fat pension?
00:57:31
Speaker
You know what? Unfortunately, some people do. I know people that are in working for these big companies and they stay just to get a pension. Now they're going to stay there for another 20, 25 years just so they can get that pension. And they hate doing what they do. Yeah. Pensions are hard to come by these days too. Yeah.
00:57:53
Speaker
But it's again, I can't stress the importance of taking care of yourself because if you pass away, there's nobody else going to take care of the people that you love. So you got to be taking care of yourself. Yeah. I'd put it up there. You can't take that money to the grave. That's for sure.
00:58:15
Speaker
I would put it up at the top. Again, you do have to be able to sustain yourself, but I would definitely make sacrifices there. And I'm 58, and I have to say that's pretty much how I've tried to live there. And I found myself in some unfortunate situations. Not just once, twice, three or four times, and it does reinforce that idea.
00:58:42
Speaker
Don't make those sacrifices if you can help it. Yeah. Stay healthy out there everybody. Yeah. And don't forget sponsors, we're still looking for you.
00:58:53
Speaker
Yeah. Any of those Pfizer, any of the drug companies? Yes, because I am looking to change my meds. I don't think they're working out that well. Just saying. Well, that ends the podcast today, but we have to end it with our thoughts of the beer of the week. And since Jeff bought the beer, he goes last.
00:59:18
Speaker
Again, I'm an old school guy. I thought you would like this one. I come from Jersey City. This beer is not that bad, though. You like it better than the first one I got. Yes, yes, it wasn't not happy at all. No, the coffee. I'm not really a coffee drinker either. So yeah, I wasn't thinking about that. But it tastes a little bit like coffee and tastes like raspberries, too. So it wasn't bad. I would drink it again. If you were buying.
00:59:48
Speaker
That's positive. All right. I'm going to say the first couple of sips were better than the last couple of sips from me. Um, it's a little bit too taught in a raspberry fruity sense. Um, I do prefer something that's a little bit more bitter. Um, so that's probably why this kind of goes against the grain. It's sweet and fruity. Um, almost like a, in a wine kind of way.
01:00:20
Speaker
I can taste some of the coffee notes but the prevailing taste in that is raspberry and that's why I would say that's a thumbs down for me. Okay. There's squirrels jumping off the roof. I liked it.
01:00:38
Speaker
When it was, you know, as it's warmed up, the coffee flavor has come out a lot more for me. It's pretty heavily carbonated. It's okay. It's kind of a novelty for me. I'd have one. I wouldn't drink more than one, you know, at a time, I don't think. But good, you know, good flavor. I like Berliner Weiss beers, so.
01:01:04
Speaker
I think it's got to be super cold. Yeah. That's the pope proud would be, as you got to get something to keep it nice. Yes. I mean, it doesn't have to be cold. Yeah. Certain beers you can drink room temperature. I can't do that. Give me a cold shafer. Pretty good.
01:01:24
Speaker
Anyway, yeah, but I mean, we we we enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was. Yeah. We did enjoy it. Can't wait to see what Roberto picks for next week. You know me. I don't plan. Yeah. Peroni's.
01:01:38
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Ooh, the Italiano. Which tastes just like gross. Yeah. OK, listen, we got to go and get back to work. We got some work done. We got one thing. One more thing to talk about. We were supposed to talk about the giveaway, so we're going to be putting together.
01:01:55
Speaker
a giveaway. We just celebrated one year anniversary on Sunday, so we wanted to put something together. This is sort of aimed at people that are just getting into woodworking or have a little bit of woodworking experience but want to, you know, sort of further the hobby.
01:02:12
Speaker
So we're getting some tools together that we've outgrown or upgraded from, stopped using. We're gonna put together a little sort of kit for somebody. Nice package, really, actually. Yeah, got some so far Stanley sweetheart chisels, the quarter inch, excuse me, half inch, three quarter, one inch. We shot them up last week, too. Yeah, English made Stanley number four. It's not super antique, but it's probably from, I wanna say the 80s.
01:02:42
Speaker
Have some DMT diamond stones Veritas mark one honing jig And we put some other stuff together. We got to clean all this stuff up We're not gonna sharpen the chisels and the plane We're just gonna get them flat and the bevel set and you have the stone so we're gonna leave that up to you because that's a big part of You know being a woodworker is learning how to sharpen yourself No, no, they're gonna be set up ready to go. They just need to be sharpened So stay tuned. We'll tell you more about that
01:03:11
Speaker
But, you know, I said that we were going to announce it today. So I didn't want to leave everybody hanging. Is it going to be a Veritas? Many square in there? No. There might be there might be some Veritas gear. Yeah. But we have to rummage around and see what else. You know, depends. Does anybody use rifflers? Let us know. Yeah. Fair the riffler. Yeah. We have two camps here. Yes.
01:03:40
Speaker
Well, that's it for today. Good luck with everybody. Send in those questions. Have a great weekend. Be well. Like us on Instagram. Subscribe on YouTube. Leave a comment. And sponsors. Contact. Yeah, we're looking at you. Contact us. Must be the beer. I think it's the meds. Must be the meds. See you next week. Ciao.