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The Art of Pressure: Edge Rushers with Jake Schyvinck
45 Plays7 months ago
Aloha and Welcome to another Episode of OPE!
This week we continue our lead up to the 2024 NFL draft with the Edge Rushers class! We are joined this week by Jake Schyvinck, cohost of the Draft SZN Pod for Packernet and youtube draft content creator! We take a look at the current Edges on roster and the potential prospects for the Packers in the draft.
Please make sure to give us a follow, like and, drop us a comment! Also, make sure to check out our website ohanapackers.org for all our great content!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:27
Speaker
Aloha and welcome back to another draft, 2024 draft preview edition of the Ahana Packers edition podcast. The podcasts were me, Iowa Joe, and today we are joined by Jake Shavink. Jake, did I pronounce that correctly at all? Awesome. God, I'm glad it was you that had to pronounce it because I was not going to do it. See Jake, this is why he has a co-host is to just let someone else step on the land minefield and see if
00:00:52
Speaker
If there's any, uh, silent, but visible letters, or if we're reading it straight through, and I'm going to just Ron Burgundy my way through the damn thing, but we welcome Jake. Um, we welcome Jake to today's show. Um, he's bringing some hot knowledge about just overall green bay draft trends, but especially today, as we peer into, uh, green Bay's, um, upcoming draft, uh, at the edge class. So Jake, welcome on the show. Thanks for coming on with us today. Excited to be here.
00:01:21
Speaker
And you guys can find Jake everywhere. He's on Twitter at Jake NFL Draft. On YouTube, you can check him out, Jake Shavink NFL, no spaces. And just, he's putting out a lot of great content, whether it's tweet threads or videos. And even on YouTube, I think you do it, you kind of cross it onto Twitter, but I know definitely on YouTube, you'll kind of put up your polls on like what you want people or what people want you to review next.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah, Jake, just give your little spiel, take the floor, advertise yourself right now. I thought you did a pretty good job, Mike, honestly. But yeah, draft season's year round for me as I feel like it is for a lot of people.
00:02:07
Speaker
It's just, it's, it's always fun. The process is, is a great time. It's, it's, it's just great to dive in on, you know, 300 players and see how they potentially fit in the NFL level. Love, love being able to do like video breakdowns of guys, of course. Um, and then have a podcast two days a week with Packernet. So that's really fun as well to just cover the draft.
00:02:26
Speaker
from that scale. But yeah, this is this is peak time for me, there's no doubt about it. And it's just it's always exciting. And of course, obviously, you know, leaning a little more Packers than most teams, it's especially fun because you know, there's so many great, you know, podcasted creators in the Packers and draft space. So it's a lot of fun.
00:02:44
Speaker
I've always said the doing draft stuff for the Packers was the was more fun than anything because trying to get in the mind of like Ted Thompson and Brian Goudekunstam, hey, what are they going to do this time? Especially when it was Ted Thompson, because it's like, OK, and the joke was always, OK, what D3, you know, running back, are they going to pick this time or a Cal Poly school of mining or whatever some of these guys were coming from?
00:03:13
Speaker
So it was always fun to do draft stuff for the Packers, just because a lot of times they did do a lot of off the wall things. And that's why it was fun for me to dig into a lot of the no name guys compared to the name guys, because it's like, OK, these guys have more of a chance to make it on the Packers than, you know, let's say like a Georgia player or, you know, Clemson or whatever. Now the trend is kind of changed with Gudakunz, but
Unpredictability of Packers' Draft Picks
00:03:41
Speaker
you know, there's still some there that it kind of gives you some shock value when he takes his picks. Yeah, definitely. Yep. So we're going to dive head on first in. So first off, we'll just recap work. Do we do we want to talk about the elephant in the room with the Packers at the moment? Or do we just want to let other other pods deal with it? We'll let everyone else deal with that. OK, we're on the edge class.
00:04:11
Speaker
But so resetting what the as of what is today, we're recording March 17th, 2024. This is the Green Bay Edge Room as it stands.
00:04:21
Speaker
St. Patty's Day, and I don't think any of us are drunk right now, so you know, we're living life perfectly. So, Rashad had a strong comeback from his ACL terror. He suffered in 2022. He impressed there are your
Injury Concerns in the Packers' Roster
00:04:41
Speaker
likely week one starters with Lucas Van Ness being your edge three, especially with Inagbure.
00:04:48
Speaker
Probably gonna miss most if not all of 2024. Um, did we ever get confirmation that he tore his ACL or are we kind of just riding on the Like it was not good, you know, I thought they flirt pretty much confirmed it towards you. Okay. Yeah, I could be wrong But I thought he finally did come out and say that it was an ACL tear or somebody came out and said it was some finally an ACL tear Got it. Yeah
00:05:16
Speaker
I don't remember. It's been so long ago. I know. Right. Yeah. I feel like it was never like a confirmed. It was always, you always hear feared and like all outlets, right? When it happened. Yeah. So yeah.
00:05:33
Speaker
Okay. Kingsley himself told the media that, yeah, he tore it. So, okay. So that's about as confirmed as it gets. So yeah. Um, more than likely he's starting the season on pup. I'll be very shocked if he does it, but I just don't see a way that when you tear it in January, that you're not starting the season on up. And we don't know. Look at how Elton came back and look how her Sean came back on theirs. I mean, it just.
00:06:01
Speaker
I, I can't say no anymore because we all thought the same thing for Rashawn. We've all thought the same thing for Elton. Oh, there's no way they're coming back this early. Oh, no. And here they're practicing and training camps and you know, playing week one. So I'm not going to say never. I mean, it is more likely than not that he's not going to be fully ready.
00:06:23
Speaker
But who knows what, you know, maybe it's the cheese and the beer and whatever that they soak it in. And it just, I don't know. So, can we tell I'm kind of in a goofy mood today? I just, my brain is fried right now. You're not in your car. So you're, you're on cloud nine right now. More like my brain is fried from cramming all these, these prospects. So.
00:06:53
Speaker
fair that's fair and then after that it's kind of Brenton Cox Jr and then Kishan Banks got the um I think he was the one he got the spot um activation for the 49ers game uh in the divisional round so that rounds out the roster as is so
00:07:09
Speaker
when people question why would they possibly take an edge in round one if the right one fell? Well, there you have it. Your edge four is probably not going to play in 2024. If it does, it won't be until November or December. And
Packers' Draft Strategy and Trends
00:07:27
Speaker
Preston I thought had a really good year but he's just going to be another year older and after that it's Rashawn and Lucas and you know everyone wanted to like when's Brenton gonna get his chance when you know Winnie Cox and all that kind of stuff but it's like at the end of the day he's still an undrafted free agent yes he has a lot of talent but
00:07:47
Speaker
you know it's not like he was a supreme athlete or you know like a lot of it was he you know he was a high recruit coming out of high school and there was untapped talent there but you know and could he get through the off field but it's not like he was just overflowing with physical and athletic talent that you know he's such a can't miss if he got his head screwed on straight kind of guy and so
00:08:12
Speaker
That's where I kind of think that the door is open that you know if the right guy slides to Green Bay's pick at 25 or you know just however the board falls and there's in let's say Jared verse somehow gets down to 2021 kind of thing. You bet that good is going to start picking the phone up and trying to see what it takes to move up for three to four picks. So that's kind of where I've got it. Jake, how are you looking at this class just in terms of Green Bay and where we sit with it as a whole?
00:08:41
Speaker
I think the fascinating part of this is, will anything change with how they've addressed defensive end, right? Like it feels like the, like the, the, pretty much the straightforward take is just like, okay, they've, they've gone, you know, two 62 70 plus on the edge, even when they were in three four. So like, why would that change for four three?
00:09:03
Speaker
It shouldn't, but new defensive coordinator, you know, what's he going to want out there? You know, is he going to want like guys in sub packages that are, you know, maybe a little twitchy or maybe more undersized that he would like to get out there in the rotation? Very possible. And I think that's where I'm trying to juggle the Brett and Cox thing because it's like, he was like, he's like two 50. I think, at least I think that was what he was, uh, as a prospect of the combine.
00:09:26
Speaker
That's for whatever it's worth. That's what green Bay lists him as to on the, on the team page. Yeah. And that's what he was for the combine. So yeah. So it's a weird outlier, like in terms of size, but relative to the rest of the room. And so like, that's, that's fascinating to see if like half is like, okay, yeah. Can we get somebody like, like him, but you know, obviously oozing a little more talent to the point where like we could take this guy a little bit higher.
00:09:53
Speaker
or a lot higher in the draft. And so it's just going to be fascinating to see somebody like Verst, who's like 254 at the combine. Are they going to be interested in him potentially just because, OK, they've seen the power. They see the profile of, OK, he can almost kind of do defensive end things even at that size. And there are a few others I'm sure we're going to talk about that can do that. So that's, I think, going to be the most interesting. I think we're probably, most of us in the space, be like, well, we got to stay with the chalk and think, all right, 260, 270.
00:10:21
Speaker
Could they surprise us? Of course, because it's the Packers. They do this all the time, right? Two years ago, it was like, they won't take a linebacker in the first, they won't take 23, 24 year old in the first, and they did both those things at the same time. They'd be like, yeah, you think you have it figured out, and you really don't. So that's what I think is the most fascinating part about this.
00:10:39
Speaker
this, this edge defensive end group is there are a lot of different styles. And if like goodies, like, okay, yeah, let's, let's go dip into the, like the chop Robinson, Jonah Ellis sphere of things rather than, you know, sticking to what we've gone with, you know, looking at guys like Marshall, and Neil, and do I'm sure we'll talk about, like, that's, I think the most fascinating part about this is if, will they tweak anything or, or is it going to stay chalk? I just, I want to lean chalk, but you, you just never know.
00:11:03
Speaker
Right. I kind of lean that maybe they're going to surprise us with a guy that's about 250, 255. And the reason I say that, because even though we're
00:11:16
Speaker
Thinking the edges are Lucas and Rashawn and those guys you also got to remember we got guys like Kobe wooden and Who's who's about the same size as Lucas? So is he gonna play interior? Is he gonna play edge? So I think just to kind of give them
00:11:35
Speaker
that, you know, I guess what I'm saying is they've got plenty of big bodies right now. Do they want to bring in somebody who's a little bit smaller that has the speed element to his game to really come off the edge, or do they just want to stick with the big bodies? And I just was thinking about this just now as that thought was coming into my head. Do you think LeFlore was planning on transitioning to 4-3 the whole time he's been there with the draft picks that him and Guti have been coming up with?
00:12:04
Speaker
Because if you think about it, a lot of them are, where did they come from? A lot of them came straight from a 4-3 defense that they were converting to a 3-4 defense. And so now that they're converting back to a 4-3,
00:12:21
Speaker
they're not as hurting as one would think with the conversion. So, yeah, I mean, I could see them going with the smaller guide just to kind of give that extra space in the, you know, that extra weapon forum.
Potential Shift to 4-3 Defense?
00:12:39
Speaker
And I think what builds off of that Jake is like, okay,
00:12:43
Speaker
So weight is just one thing that, you know, it's only one factor in, you know, play style and weight kind of, they kind of go hand in hand because, you know, you're not necessarily going to have a 280 pound speed rusher or anything like that, but.
00:12:57
Speaker
This, the edge group, it's the one position that Gudakunz has pretty much flipped the script on how he drafts them versus how Thompson drafted them because if you compare their trends, Thompson was drafting a lot of guys who were lighter with shorter arms. Thompson didn't draft the guy with 34-inch arms. Everyone was 33 and under.
00:13:17
Speaker
And whereas Groot, he's taking one guy with anything under a 34-inch arm. And that was Donnerson, which was still when Capers was technically the DC. So you kind of weigh those options. And then on top of it, you're like, OK, maybe to go lighter. But do they still stick with a longer arm prospect? Because having length on the edge, that does impact your ability to disrupt the tackles, hand punch and things like that.
00:13:44
Speaker
Yeah, Jake, you're right. It's one of the most fascinating things that I'm looking at coming into this draft, because I was talking to Mafia about this a little while ago, and we were kind of laughing because he's like, if you, you know, and, you know, like, like you're saying, Jake, this is not, you know, we're not here to say never or anything like that. But it's like, if you just base it off of how Gudakans has drafted Edges since 2019 with the Roshan pick,
00:14:09
Speaker
Mafi has like six guys that he's like, okay, they fit the measurement, build trends, athleticism trends that Gudakhan has taken. And that was with him dropping it to 254 pounds or something like that. And so even that, I kind of had the light, he's like, yeah, if you raise it to 260, there's only four. So it'll be really interesting because I do think they should add an edge somewhere, you know, because Kingsley is going to be
00:14:39
Speaker
Basically, I'm just counting him out for this season. And like I said, you have to keep prepping for time after Preston. And especially now that you're moving into this 4-3 front, you do just want to be able to do like what Philly and Kansas City do and just send wave after wave of defensive linemen out there.
00:14:59
Speaker
And that's why, Joe, there's part of me where it's like, maybe, but also they spent so much time in sub-package that, and that's why I'm like, I always liked the 3.4, but the problem that Green Bay ran into, really since Petton is, they didn't use the 3.4 for what it was intended to, which is like, when you're in base, you have the ability to send different, you have your three linemen, but you can change up who your fourth rusher is.
00:15:28
Speaker
And Petton didn't really do it. And then Barry, that was his Achilles heel. Everyone knew that if we're in base, it's like, we're just going to check to a pass because whoever is in front of Preston, that's the guy that Preston's going to be in zone coverage against. And everyone thought, when I would say stuff like that, everyone thought I was bashing Preston. I was like, no. If anything, Preston should go in and slap Barry on the sideline because it's like, I'm the dude that's getting hung out to dry in every play because everyone knows
00:16:00
Speaker
The whole point is that, at some point, Rashawn is supposed to drop out. Or you drop Kenny Clark into a short zone and you send Koya on a blitz kind of thing. And so it's like, if you're not going to use the 3-4 for the imaginative creativity that it was supposed to be for, you might as well just run a 4-3 and kind of put, like you said, Joe, put guys in the positions they were in in college and stuff. So that's kind of where I view it in terms of how their transition to a 4-3 is going to go. But Jake?
00:16:20
Speaker
what your call is, and it's like,
00:16:30
Speaker
Um, oh, Joe, you're muted.
00:16:35
Speaker
I saw that. I hit the button, son of a bitch. Stupid technology. But that's why I think that maybe that he had been planning for this 4-3 a little bit sooner than what we as fans and bloggers and podcasters and all that expected. And you go back to some of the earlier episodes,
00:17:01
Speaker
uh mike where i said i i don't see them doing a full shift into something else because they've played the three four so long well what'd they do they went out and full shifted now from three four to four three so that makes me wonder if they had an inkling in their mind that hey we do want to go to a four three
00:17:19
Speaker
But it's going to be after we start getting rid of some of these guys that were brought in specifically for our three four defense. And then to your point, Mike, with the way they misused it, that's why I was kind of wondering if we needed to go ahead and reach into, you know,
Criticism of Coaching and Defensive Strategy
00:17:36
Speaker
Talk about the elephant in the room with what devondre was kind of going off twitter about because he pretty much was saying the same thing That you know joe berry was misusing the guys that he had To the point where devondre finally went into matt lafleur and you know, these are devondre's words We don't know the full extent but you know, he said that he finally went into the floor and said hey
00:17:59
Speaker
We've got to do this. We've got to do that. And the floor had to kind of take control again, which brings up the question. Why the hell didn't we move on from Joe Berry sooner when we knew right off the bat that the floor was already having to tell Joe Berry you need to start doing this.
00:18:16
Speaker
And that's when they finally would start doing it. And that was in year one. Yeah. We had three years, two of year one, but I mean, I, I'm really looking forward to this four, three. Cause I think it's going to utilize the, the room a lot better. You know, Rashad, what was he? He was a four, three lineman Lucas. What was he? He was a four, three lineman. Uh, wooden. What was he? He was more of a four, three lineman.
00:18:44
Speaker
The only one that I think it might hurt and it really sucks and this could just be my opinion and I could be completely wrong. I never claimed to be an expert. I didn't stay at a holiday inn or whatever.
00:18:57
Speaker
I think the only one that it might hurt is TJ Slayton just because he's that big bodied nose tackle type guy. And we saw that more towards the end of last year when they finally were using him as the nose tackle and letting Kenny kind of feast as the end.
00:19:15
Speaker
He's the only one that I could see that it might hurt a little bit. So I mean, that's my, like I said, that's my opinion. I'm not really 100% on it. He may be a consummate pro and just say, Hey, I can do whatever front you want. You put me in a four, three, I can do it. You put me in a three, four, I can do it. Three, three, you know, two, four, seven, whatever the hell kind of front you want to put me in. I can do it.
00:19:42
Speaker
But I just, I have a feeling he's the one that if anything, his production might dip some just because he's out of place a little bit. Yeah. You just, you know, and they didn't run a lot of base anymore, but you just by a function of it, you're going to have fewer defensive tackles on the field now. And so it is like, is your base going to be, you know, is your base defensive tackles going to be Slayton and Kenny, which I think it probably will, especially against some of the run, the heavier run teams.
00:20:11
Speaker
And that's the main thing is that they have flexibility now where it's like, and not that they did it in the 3.4, but it's just, you know, you come in with a different mindset where it's like, this is what we do now versus we're doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that and stuff. You know, we're dabbling with some format fronts for our sub package, but base, we're still, you know, a three down line front and stuff like that.
Preseason Expectations for New Defensive Strategies
00:20:35
Speaker
that'll, like you said, Joe, that'll all be stuff that I'm super excited to see what preseason, the preseason games look like, because I know that obviously the starter, the starters and star players aren't necessarily going to play, but just schematically, what are we going to see? And, you know, and that's where I'm curious too, is just to kind of go back to 2009 is like, I don't know if anyone remembers, but that was the thing is like, oh, is capers going to do much in preseason or is he going to, you know, is he going to,
00:21:01
Speaker
And he came out. He just went guns blazing in the preseason. I remember Eric Wood was a rookie that season. And everyone was like, oh, this is just me. This is a rookie center for the Bills. And he's getting his first snaps in an NFL preseason game. And Capers is twisting his inside linebackers. And he's dropping his nose tackle and stuff. And so he was like, nope, nope.
00:21:24
Speaker
Dom didn't put anything in his back pocket. He's like, yep, here's all my shit and I'm going to use it in the preseason. So I'm kind of curious what Halfly is going to have it look like.
00:21:34
Speaker
Jake, so usually we break it down into our guys we like, guys we don't like, but because of the point you brought up, I want to open it up to you as, who are some guys that would fit how Gudakut has drafted edges that you like? And then who are some guys that you're like, if they just say, kind of say, screw it, we're just taking the best guy we like. Who are some of those guys that you like that haven't necessarily met Gud's previous draft trends, but you're like, this is a damn good prospect and I'm excited for him.
00:22:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think we're gonna have a lot of conversations about that guy.
Evaluation of Draft Prospects for Defense
00:22:06
Speaker
I think everybody's kind of maybe got that guy in their head right now of like, okay, go off the books for him. I think the obvious one to like look at as like, oh, it's a goody trend player is Marshawn Neland from Western Michigan. Like this player looks exactly like Lucas Van Ness playing for a Mac school pretty much. It is a very similar type of player where you watch him on bass downs,
00:22:31
Speaker
My guys just anchoring setting edge like it's there's no problem. Like it's he makes the tackles in the Mac look like they're tight ends blocking him. And so to see him dominate competition like that is always a good thing.
00:22:43
Speaker
And he wins with a lot of length. He can dip a little bit like Van Ness does. But he has all of that power that he packs in. And when he gets off the snap really well, you see all that initial explosion, all that conversion to power. And it's hard for your mind, especially for a lot of us. We're in the packer space a lot. So for any other team, it's going to be like, oh, this guy reminds me of this guy. But it just feels like he is another Van Ness who it's like,
00:23:07
Speaker
OK, he can come in his Edge 4 and, you know, bring him along, bring him along in year two. You see a big jump in year three. You see a bigger jump in. Yeah, I think he's really, really exciting. I think he's really one of the best fits out there. I think another intriguing one is Brandon Dorless from Oregon. I think is another one where his weights kind of fluctuate a little bit. He was way down in the two seventies for the for the Senior Bowl. I was back in the two eighties for the combine like he
00:23:37
Speaker
There's a lot of great hand usage there. He's pretty flexible for a bigger, taller, longer guy, especially long limbed, like in his legs, like he's he sits really tall when he rides above the stance. But a lot of great hand usage, some easy power when he strikes really well. Like you can just tell like guys are stunned out there, especially some of the guards with the running twists. Like they're kind of shocked by how much power he has. I think those two guys, especially like guys in those middle rounds where
00:24:04
Speaker
You know, some teams are going to be like, wow, that's, you know, especially with Dorla, some teams are going to be like, Oh, that's a defensive tackle. And, and good. You might just be like, nah, man, that's an edge. That's a defensive end. Like, this is a guy I like playing out there. So I do think those are like two of my favorites right now. I think he's teetering on it because he's two 59, at least he wasn't the combine. It is LA too, LA too. There's no way he's going to fall to 25, right?
00:24:31
Speaker
says in a hoping voice that he would. The arms are short. The arms are short. And that's the thing. That's the thing. Right. And maybe, you know, maybe this is a little bit of transition, but like good. Good. He can just be like, yeah, arm length. Sure. But like just someone walks into his room, says, oh, yeah, arm length though. Right. He's like, yeah, if you watch this guy, just like this guy's got four counters every time he every time he rushes, like there's just there's no stopping him. And
00:25:00
Speaker
Like I think he can play the run down and, you know, setting an edge pretty, pretty well. And like he was, they were kicking him inside at UCLA to rush and watching him dominate USC for 11 pressures. It's just hilarious. Uh, for those who have seen it. And so like those guys, I think are more obvious ones, a lot to a little less. So right with all the, you know, potential top 15 talk and maybe a little bit of the arm like stuff.
00:25:24
Speaker
Where are we sitting on Darius Robinson right now? Because the problem is, is the testing for a defensive end was not very good. And so like, he is kind of was on the radar big, everybody was really hyped for him and like, okay, you know, defensive end, this is big goodie guy, and then testing not great, you know, and it looks better as a defensive tackle. So I feel like he's kind of off the radar a little bit.
00:25:46
Speaker
uh for those type of players but obviously if i'll let you go but i know we'll get to i'm sure we'll get to the the guy off the book for sure so with regard to robinson he's one of the few guys that i'm like if they were still playing a three four i think he they would value him more kind of thing because he he would fit so nicely into that five technique spot but yeah i feel like
00:26:09
Speaker
And I know that Wooden is only a fourth round pick, but you already got guys like Wooden, Brooks, Wyatt to a kind of a certain extent because he's still not a great run defender, where it's like you've got three guys who are interior linemen that you're like, we want to get them on the field to rush the passer, but
00:26:26
Speaker
like how many, you know, and that's where I'm kind of like, it's hard to carry that many guys who more need to be interior and why, like Joe kind of alluded to that I do think wooden is going to get some base edge snaps, kind of like, you know, Cullen Jenkins did when he was younger or like, and remember 07 and 08, that was the big thing is like, Jenkins would play base downs and then he would move inside and KGB would go and play on the edge on passing downs and stuff like that. So,
00:26:54
Speaker
I wouldn't rule it out because like you said, he does hit a lot of their thresholds as a tackle. But yeah, I don't, you know, the all important, what do they list them as when they announced the pick kind of thing? I don't know if they would list them as a D and I think at most you would get the defensive lineman out of Missouri kind of thing and stuff. So it's it's really semantics. But what I do like about Robinson is he's not the greatest athlete on the edge, but he does use what he uses his hands. Well,
00:27:24
Speaker
he is strong, his punch is jarring for offensive linemen and he has the ability to, it's not as good as Kenny's obviously, but when he gets an offensive lineman off-kilter, he can do a push-pull move that
00:27:40
Speaker
it's not like I said it's not Kenny's but he can chuck some guys so there's like you said we don't know exactly what Halfly's looking for but we kind of know what Rebovitz likes his edges to do and so that's sort of the give and take of like okay like
00:27:56
Speaker
who's who's gonna have more weight on that front so that i'm not taking him off the board but i more than anything it's more of like a i doubt he'd be the pick at 25 but you get to like 41 maybe and especially when you get to like their their later second round pick and if he's still there it's like that that might be too hard for gudakans to pass up on that one yeah
00:28:17
Speaker
See, he was also one for me that was kind of like, you know, OK, I can see this, I can see that. But I went the opposite end. I said with some of the reps that I was seeing, I thought he would be better standing up than he would be with his hand in the dirt, just because it seemed like he was putting better effort into it when he was on his feet than when he was down in the dirt.
00:28:41
Speaker
Now, again, I'm not an expert. So you guys, you know, I'm, I'm getting out voted here two to one. So you guys could possibly be right on that. But I did see a lot of things to him. The one thing he did have a solid punch, but he needed to use it a little bit more to do what they say. You know, like they say, put the offensive tackle on skates because a lot of times once the offensive tackle
00:29:03
Speaker
you know anchored he wasn't moving them with that punch but if he could get them before they anchored you know he was doing solid work uh and of course you know the obvious like mike and uh jake said you know the athleticism just really is limited there as an edge guy so i mean he did have a solid first step he could read the the snap count pretty well that
00:29:30
Speaker
that helped him out a lot more. He just, once it got out in the open, he had a lot of issues trying to get to the playmaker. So while, like Mike said, I wouldn't spend probably a first round pick on him if he's there late second, early third, you know, maybe even into the
00:29:50
Speaker
you know hopefully if he if he falls to the fourth they say okay we just we gotta we gotta take shot kind of like a Kingsley you know they they did with him when he fell to the fifth that okay you know this is a guy that we can at least throw in there in a rotation if he hits you know
Concerns about Draft Pick Consistency
00:30:08
Speaker
great if not then you know we got somebody you know we just got another body there but you know he is he's one of those that just kind of you know what do you do with him and
00:30:18
Speaker
and that kind of thing. I think you made a great point with like stand up versus in the dirt. There are a lot of times and it's like it's so interesting because you watch me the senior bowl and you feel like Oh, he cleaned it all up. And if you hadn't watched him a ton, you know, before the senior bowl, you're going back to watch him and you go, Okay, why is he like standing up so much?
00:30:36
Speaker
when he gets out of that that three-point stance like he gets really high up and that causes a lot of his problems and so like when you're when you know got to see him you know kind of front row in mobia it was kind of like oh wow the pad level looks so much more consistent like what what's what's flipping here is like just more cameras on like what's what's the deal and so
00:30:55
Speaker
I think my favorite play of his, not to hang on him for too long, but watching him do Surf Technique on LSU, when Daniels is running the RPO and there's nowhere to go for Daniels, genuinely sick. And it's just like, oh, just thinking about him playing on the end there is so fun when you see plays like that. Just for the listeners, if you could give a quick explanation on what Surf Technique is. Yeah, because I'm thinking like Kawano out in the body shooting and in the ocean.
00:31:23
Speaker
Oh, no, I'm not gonna block him. Oh, man. Yeah. So the surf technique is basically for read option stuff. It's really for the defensive end to kind of
00:31:47
Speaker
try to play both as best as he can, getting a good enough stance where he can snap quickly, you know, down, down the line to make a play with the running backs, keeping it or be in a good enough stance where the quarterback keeps, he has enough momentum that can kind of bring him outside and sort of.
00:32:04
Speaker
basically force him back inside as much as possible. And seeing someone like Robinson do that at his size is, it was just insane. Like you said, like you alluded to Joe, that's where, yeah, he ran a four nine five, but his first step and his first 10 like play up in that area. And that's where you do see it in that quick change of direction.
00:32:22
Speaker
And yeah, like Jake's alluded to, he had some moments where he had Jayden Daniels kind of like getting up like that after the, you know, palms up in the air, like, I know I read it right kind of thing. I know I read it right. Who tackled me? Who? Wait, how?
00:32:44
Speaker
And then just to circle back to, um, to latu. So like I said, this would be one of those where we were just talking about him before Jake got on. And it would be one of those where Gudukunce would be bucking his personal trends. Yeah.
00:32:59
Speaker
but so and then not that they're the same player but same like kind of like almost hand down or stand up edge in a four three front but it'd be kind of like what clay was being used as when he was at sc his final year there but latu is what like 15 16 pounds heavier than clay was coming out and his arms are shorter than what gudakans prefers but they're almost an inch longer than clay i always forget that clay's arms were like impressively short because he was a 32 incher at the combine so
00:33:29
Speaker
Yeah, so it wouldn't be like a supreme stretch of his, um, his thresholds, like, you know, dropping all the way down for two inches in our end. So the whole arm length thing. So when you're playing the run as a defensive edge, you want to keep the tackle off of you. And so, you know, you,
00:33:47
Speaker
the farther away because the whole premise is an offensive lineman. He wants to grab your pads, pull you into him so that he can initiate which direction you go in. And so that's why the defensive player, you want to keep that offensive tackle at bay one. So he's not into your pads and two so that you can find the ball and you know, disengage and go get the ball carrier or help to
00:34:06
Speaker
divert the ball carrier back inside. So that's part of it. And then also, like I said, having extra arm length, it just helps as that offensive tackle is trying to punch your chest, then you can just go and swipe his arms away. So, but Lot2, like Jake said, he's got a dip and a counter for just about everything and he, and so like,
00:34:27
Speaker
And this is kind of what Joe was talking about pre-show with me, Jake, is that you see Latu and you see his highlight plays and you're like, that's a good football player. And then sometimes you're kind of like, oh, like, OK, like that's not a terrible rep, but also like, you know, like what else is going to happen there kind of thing. So and that's where I kind of wonder where it's like.
00:34:50
Speaker
because I think Goot's whole process on the edge is like, I'm going to pick this big long player because at the very least, if he doesn't win the edge, he's there to set it kind of thing. And I know that that hasn't necessarily played out, but I think that's part of his thing. But like you said,
00:35:07
Speaker
Does he say new system, new regime, we're going to give Halfly more of the guys he's kind of looking for and stuff. So definitely wouldn't take him off the table. And the thing like, like we both kind of alluded to Jake is I like that he has a plan and his plan comes with
00:35:24
Speaker
not just one or two moves but he's coming in like I'm gonna try to win outside then I'm gonna dip then I'm gonna spin back inside and then I'm gonna spin back on you kind of thing so like his motor when he's hunting the quarterback he's just going kind of thing so that that is what makes him a very that's what excites you when you watch all a lot of his film is like the dude just has a nose for the football and a motor that doesn't quit so that's where the high end for me joe is on latu is like
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah, like that's, that's the guy you're hoping to get out of it. And it's about what traits of those will transfer over to the pros from the college. Yeah. See the conversation Mike and I were having pre-show was.
00:36:06
Speaker
I, you know, and like I, I'll preference preference this like I did with Mike. I didn't watch a lot of like the high name guys because I don't like to, because when we come onto the podcast, you know, by the time we get to the episode with those guys in it, they've been talked to death. You know, everybody's looking at him, everything like that. So I got to say that I didn't watch a lot of the, the top name guys out there, but
00:36:31
Speaker
The one thing that bugged me about watching this edge class the one the guys that I did was there wasn't anybody that like really jumped off the screen and said okay that guy's it. You know there are a lot of good reps there are a lot of good techniques there were a lot of good this, but it wasn't like a constant. That's it. That's my guy, you know we've got to take him at all costs.
00:36:55
Speaker
So it was just it was really hard to do latte or latu or whatever. Again, I'm not a names person. You know, it is a really solid guy and you guys said it great. You know, he's got the move set. He's and all that.
00:37:13
Speaker
I just, there were up and downs with him to where, okay, he's doing this, he's doing that. His motor's running great, but you know, he's not getting anywhere. And, and so it just little bits. And I only got to watch a couple of things out of them. Cause like I told Mike, I really tried to cram the last couple of days. So a lot of these guys are really running through my, you know, kind of
00:37:38
Speaker
running all together but and there's three guys from UCLA that are coming out this year that just in that edge class that it's so hard to keep them and they were all within similar numbers of each other so it's like okay so this guy was this one and this one's this one and and wait no that one and no so it was really hard to keep a lot of them straight but you know they look UCLA has always been good to have
00:38:05
Speaker
defensive guys come out of, I mean, think of all the ones that seem to pop out of their miles. Jack, you know, we picked up day tone that, you know, back few years. And, you know, just, there's been a lot of defensive guys have come out of that, that system that it's hard not to look at them. And, you know, if I had to, yeah, I would,
00:38:33
Speaker
be all right with him if Gooty said, all right, well, forget this trend that we have. This is the guy we want. Because obviously, they do more work on these players than we do. But they're going to know a little bit more.
00:38:51
Speaker
Uh, again, Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. I was going to say the bit. I think you brought up a great point about like the edge class, the defensive end class where you're going to close a hole. It's like, there's so much to like about a lot of the top guys, but you're like, there's something missing. I missed this guy's missing acts like lot to, I think you could say the arm length or you could say like, he's just not like super explosive. Like there's, he has to do a lot of work to win. He's found a way to do that, which is really good.
00:39:18
Speaker
Jared verse has like one really insanely good move that he's got in the toolbox. Want more of the toolbox, want more of him as a tackler. I think you can, Dallas Turner is kind of like maybe not the flavor of a lot of Packer fans that have watched, you know, Goody draft edge play and like, what does edge play, you know, encompass? And they're like, Turner, that's, you know, is he big enough? Is he, you know, strong enough to play? And that's like kind of his big thing.
UCLA Edge Defenders and Potential Fit
00:39:43
Speaker
I'll leave the fourth graph because I know we might want to touch on him for a second. But it does seem like you're wanting a little more with a lot of the guys. And it's funny because you're trying to group the UCLA guys. I feel like they all play kind of similar as well. They're all like, all right, I'm a technician. This is how I'm going to win. I know Gabriel Murphy tested really well. I don't feel like he is that good of an athlete on the field, personally, relative to what the testing was. So it's like, OK, all the UCLA guys, they kind of run together like they're all technicians.
00:40:12
Speaker
And so it's yeah, it's hard to find like, Oh man, player acts like this is edge one by a country mile. Like, you know, he, there's, there's nothing missing. So it does feel like that is the case with a lot of these guys. But I think that's a great reason to kind of almost bring them up at 25 for, for potential option, because maybe the leaks also sees that the same way. And a couple of these guys could be tumbling into the twenties.
00:40:37
Speaker
Right, and you said it perfectly that you know you can see that they have the skill sets and that but they rely and I said the exact same thing to to Mike at before we started recording that it's like they know they have that one special tool and then they just want to rely on that the whole time when it's like okay but
00:40:58
Speaker
you know maybe in this situation you need to throw in a spin move or you need to throw in a swim move or a dip or you know whatever instead of just constantly bull rushing bull rushing bull rushing we know you're strong we know you have the capability to do it
00:41:15
Speaker
but look at what the OT is doing to you. You bull rush him. You just worked right into his plan. So now he's got you stonewalled and yeah, you're driving him back, but the quarterbacks already got the ball out of his hand because it was only a two second, you know, pocket.
00:41:30
Speaker
So it just, and I'm not saying these guys aren't good players. They're, you know, there are a lot of good players like, and I'm just going to go ahead and throw the one name that I was kind of enjoying watching out. And that's the kid from Notre Dame, Javante Jean Baptiste. I really liked what I saw out of him. He, you know, he had an explosion explosiveness to him. He had the motor to him.
00:41:55
Speaker
He kind of fits a little bit more what Mike was asking for that fits the Gudakunst linebacker ways. So maybe he's going to be that in a 4-3, he's going to be one of the outside guys instead of an edge rusher. But if he can add the weight to him,
00:42:22
Speaker
you know, maybe, but he could also be an option because if I really sat down and looked at it and tried to compare the two, I think he's built similar to Quay.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah a little bit. Yeah he's a taller like he's a very um yeah he's 6'4". Yeah he's a very fit athlete kind of thing so yeah and and I mean he's 6'4". They weighed him at 239 and he had 33 and three quarters of inch arms.
00:42:58
Speaker
So I that is the guy I kind of cheated with it because he had because Mike asked for edge wise. But this is the type of guy that I think could play kind of both, where it would be a hybrid role where
00:43:17
Speaker
Okay, we're going to drop you down to end on this pass rush. But in the run, we're going to throw you up standing next to Quay and McDuffie or whatever. And, you know, go from there. Now, if I really had to break it down to meet
00:43:38
Speaker
You know, the the full and let me grab his numbers and make sure I'm I'm telling you guys right. The full measurements that maybe. Goodie would want more of. It would probably be. Oh, let me check the old book. Maybe an Austin Booker.
00:44:09
Speaker
maybe because Mike asked a weird question and I wasn't prepared for it. Of course, it's a lot Mike. Um, I don't think he's I think his razz kind of tape took a hit.
00:44:31
Speaker
And like a little bit and that kind of dives back into what mafia and I were talking about where it's like you see some guys and you're like okay checks this box checks this box but like Booker even oh he's like 240 kind of thing and stuff like that so yeah it's it's it's oh like I said there's good players in this draft in this edge class but
00:44:52
Speaker
is and this gets into the whole like are you saying that he should have been no but if he wants a like if there's an edge that falls it's like he's technically going to be breaking his trends from the last five years or i think he's going to have to yeah so i said i do think they need to come out of this draft with some addition to the edge room it doesn't necessarily have to be a day one or a day two ad but
00:45:19
Speaker
especially with this move and I don't think you can just sit on your hands and say like we're set at edge kind of thing because as much as you're as we're talking about like maybe Brooks maybe wouldn't get edge you know edge snaps whatever those are guys who are going to be out there to play the run they're not there to rush the passer from outside kind of you know we don't we don't have like a Chris Jones who's going to line up at edge but he's really a tackle kind of thing so
00:45:42
Speaker
See my favorite so far and we'll just go ahead and jump into another. Yeah, my favorite one that I watched so far was Braylon Trice out of Washington. I Really liked what I saw out of him, but he's 245. He's 6 3 and You know arm length is 32 and a half So is does he fit the packer mold, but I thought he had a first quick step He had a good motor
00:46:07
Speaker
He could be a little tad jumpy just by guessing at the snap count, but for the most part, it really looked like he had a good feel for the snap. He had good hand usage. He can pack a punch with the bull rush. The only thing that I really thought that could be a knock is maybe his edge setting wasn't the best.
00:46:27
Speaker
But overall, I think he was probably out of the guys that I watched. He was probably my favorite guy to watch just because it looked like, okay, yeah, he can do this. Yeah, he can do that. Yeah. He's there. He, you know, the speeds there and all that stuff. It just, you know, when, when you try to put the packer parameter around it, it's like, can you justify it?
00:46:51
Speaker
he was the that was the that was the strangest height weight number like that that came in that it surprised me so much. I there was no one else where I'm going. My jaw drops and like
00:47:03
Speaker
I double take to the number like 240. What? There's no way that's a two and then a four. That's got to be a combine error. Because it's just when you watch him play. And when you just look at him on the sideline kind of thing, you're like, that's a stocky dude kind of thing. So was he not 260 at least? Yeah. So that was jarring. Because a lot of people were talking about him and it was like, yeah, OK. Other than maybe the length, it's like, OK.
00:47:30
Speaker
This is like a goodie player, like powerful. He counters pretty well. I thought, you know, I think the flashes of like deconstructing in terms of edge setting and playing with enough anchor was there. It wasn't, you know, consistent enough that it was like, okay, we, you know, we have it all together. But, and I, another one like Lotu where he was like, he had a lot of answers for what tackles kind of through his way.
00:47:52
Speaker
And then of course, man, what are you doing? 245, man? Wisconsin, man. Have some Culver's like, let's get that sucker back up to 260. And it's just too much health food in Seattle.
00:48:09
Speaker
All right, Jake, let's rip the band-aid off. Who is the guy you've been alluding to that you've kept behind the curtain for us to this point? Who do you have in the garage under the cover right now? Well, there's a couple, I think. I think the obvious one that I think everybody wants to talk about is Chop Robinson, right? Everybody wants to talk about him and pick 25. I picked 41, right? All of that.
Chop Robinson's Versatile Potential
00:48:33
Speaker
Explosiveness and then you watch him like drop into coverage play with some range and you go wait a minute Does he have to play defensive end? Can we just stick with Sam linebacker and like just let him cook down there? Like is that possible? Can we do it? Uh, I think the other one that's really interesting he didn't test But you know run that to I think 248 is what he came in at was Jonah Ellis from Utah like a lot to like
00:48:58
Speaker
Yeah, just like he goes to that inside spin a lot, but he sets it up really well. He sets up really, really well. He attacks so much outside into where like tacos are like, oh, he's he's working the half man. He's going to try and flatten the corner a little bit by by, you know, swiping with the hands. It's like, no, he's got he's got a good inside speed move to.
00:49:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's the first thing I got wrote down on my notes here for him. And I hate doing it. It's it's it's almost Dwight Freeney like in terms of his pass rush arsenal where it's like, you know, this is it's like Barkley used to say about like people who would piss me off, piss him off and it's like, this guy's got one move and it's on the whiteboard every game and you still lose to it kind of thing. But it's like, yeah, like you said, it's kind of like,
00:49:41
Speaker
He does all the other things where he puts enough doubt in the tackle's mind that it's like, no, he's going to dip under me this one time, and I'm going to get the quarterback killed. And he's like, oh, there he goes. It's like, ah. There was only two knocks that I had on him. One is it seemed like, and I don't know if this was just the system that he ran, that it just seemed like he hesitated a little too much, that instead of having that killer instinct, it was just like, OK, I'm going to sit back. I'm going to sit back. Now I'm going to go for it.
00:50:10
Speaker
And then the other was that I don't and I put this in our group chat for those that don't know that's listening right now we've got mafia started a big group chat with some of us that we kind of bounce ideas off of.
00:50:24
Speaker
but there were like two or three games this past season where all of a sudden you just see that arm drop and he's holding it. And then he goes off the field and then, you know, like three or four plays later, he's coming back on the field and then the arm just drops and then he's off the field. And I, I just worry about that because of how Packers have handled shoulder injuries and with certain players and it just, you know, hopefully it's all fixed and there's no,
00:50:52
Speaker
uh future incidences with it but to be coming into Green Bay with an already bummed shoulder i i kind of worry slightly about it and like just to put it in context like it's worse than what Roshan came in with and remember how much of like uh
00:51:11
Speaker
oh my god we drafted a guy who might need shoulder surgery and it might put him out like he might miss most of two of his first seasons kind of thing and so and like Roshan I forget exactly what his shoulder injury was but you know he missed like eight of the games his um his last year at Michigan but like Ellis's is like a chronic dislocation issue I think is what they put it at so that's one that it's like
00:51:35
Speaker
It's one of those where it's like, surgery's not the answer to everything, but it's like, it's one of those where if it was ever thrown on the table, he probably should really look at it kind of thing, because you read about enough shows, not that any of us are doctors, but it's like, you read about enough of them, it's like, any doctor's like, if it pops out twice within a couple weeks of each other, bro, you got to get that fix kind of thing. So yeah, that's the bigger part. And that's what I said.
00:52:01
Speaker
Yeah, the Packers have an issue with it because look at Kevin King. Once it went out once, it was just constant. So he finally just had to go and have surgery on it. And then he was still kind of having issues with it going forward. But I love the kid. I really do. I liked what I saw out of him. I just I worry about it. That's the one main worry about about shoulder is that and that's a big one, too. Yeah, like it's not it's not like
00:52:30
Speaker
Oh, you know, I just, I worry about the effort. And it's like, well, maybe a good coach can unlock that effort out of you. And that's like a decent red flag. But like, this is like, you know, NFL, all the NFL teams might have the info on the shoulder that some, even some of it that we don't, where it's like, they're kind of like, yeah, this is a big problem. We'll see on day three. And like, it's that big of a problem where like,
00:52:52
Speaker
When it, you know, the more people dive into him, if they, if they haven't, and it's just like, Oh, wow. Nice production, you know, convert speed to power at a decent rate. Like there's really lots of like, but then you see that you go, okay, this is, you know, something that should probably take seriously. Cause NFL teams are definitely going to take it seriously. Yeah. And again, if he's.
00:53:13
Speaker
Credit to him a little bit if he's like out there going like no, I want to play and like do all that stuff But also credit but also kind of like what are you doing? Like you kind of are gone in that shoulder already
00:53:28
Speaker
Listen, it's it's it's super fun to watch guys tough stuff out. Like that's that's awesome I know that players say pride in that but at the same time like brother if you if you need to get this fixed like you need to get it fixed like that We don't you know, we don't want to be out situation here right? Yeah Yeah, he's another one that I'm like
00:53:58
Speaker
I don't think you can take him only as an edge because I just don't think he's ever going to be able to set the edge. And I don't know if you can take a guy even at 25 to be only a third, like the most he'll play for you. And like, I know some people will say like, Oh, but that, but it's like, it's hard to take a guy that you can't say will play a whole series for you kind of thing.
00:54:21
Speaker
And you don't want him with his hand in the dirt on any rundown because like, okay, the Michigan game from 2022 and 2023 is the entire Chopp Robinson experience, especially this year's game, because his ability to basically disappear and reappear right next to JJ McCarthy after the snap is why Michigan was like, fuck it, we're not throwing the ball anymore today because
00:54:49
Speaker
And everyone was like, oh, they don't trust JJ. I'm like, JJ's going to die if they throw the ball a dozen times today. Because it was literally like, and Barnhart, he's not a tackle in the NFL, but he was a solid college tackle. But dude wasn't even rocking into his drop. And Chop, his hip was past his hip already. So that's the excitement. That's like, oh my god. And like you said, Jake, he can play in reverse a little bit.
00:55:16
Speaker
I think he's got pretty good ability to find the ball his instincts like when he plays in space some and like just that sideline like to say edge has sidelined to sideline speed is special but you watch any run play especially to his side and Michigan was just like
00:55:32
Speaker
we don't even have to block this dude because this dude is like it's not it's and it like there's two kinds of like edges or like defensive ends or outside linebackers with end setting problems there's guys who try it and just you know whatever and physical talent whatever can't do it chop is like he's just like fuck it i'm just going to go get the quarterback and on the game breaking touchdown that blake quorum scores where he
00:55:55
Speaker
He runs dual, runs it to the right, and he just like, I don't know if he knows, but he runs dual to the right, and he just cuts it back across to the left, chop Robinson, jumps over a gap, and he's just gone. Like, both of them are gone running past each other kind of thing. And so, like, that's where you've got to be willing to trust that Halfly's going to be creative and imaginative with a prospect like Robinson. Like you said,
00:56:22
Speaker
And you hate to throw like, and this isn't to helmet scout or anything like that but you're basically like, we have to be getting Micah Parsons to take chop at 25 and like I know some people are gonna be like, how can you say that he's such a dynamic athlete and to say like, but I'm like,
00:56:40
Speaker
especially with what Green Bay has said is where they are in their timeline. They're not at the like, oh, Jordan loves going to be a good quarterback. Our title window is in two to three years. They're like, Green Bay is looking at this thing like, our window is open now. And we want guys that are going to help. And obviously, you don't want to rely on draft picks kind of thing. But you don't want a guy and kind of like Joe and I talked about on last week's offensive line pod where it's like,
00:57:06
Speaker
you don't want to rely on a guy that it's like he might not produce for you for two to three years kind of thing and
00:57:14
Speaker
So that's where it's like, Chop can definitely pass Rush for you, but it's like, if he can only play 20% of the snaps, because you're only going to play him at edge, is that a guy you're really going to take at 25 kind of things? So, and even at 41. So, and honestly at 41, that's in the range of where I'm like, someone else will have just like said, screw it. We're taking that guy already kind of thing. So yeah. But on the bright side,
00:57:39
Speaker
There is a guy that played opposite of him that may not have put up the same speed that Chop did, but was just as dangerous. And I had to do a double take when I watched him because I was like, am I just watching Chop tape right now?
00:57:54
Speaker
And no, and now forgive me. It's a Diza, Diza, Diza, Isaac. And I mean, his RAS score is a nine and you know, he's got all the build to him. He's a little bit lighter than what the Packers go for. He was listed at two 47, but he's six four four seven four 40.
00:58:18
Speaker
you know, 33.875 inch arm. So you might as well just say four, you know, just call it 34 inches because when you're getting to that nitty gritty, there's not really that much difference, but he did. He popped on my screen a lot and it did. It made me like second guess if I was just rewatching, you know, some of the same stuff I watched under chop. But like I said, obviously he doesn't have the speed chop had, but
00:58:48
Speaker
And I'm not saying Isaac is going to go, you know, at 25, but it could be like one of those situations. And I hope he's not a Ricky Elmore. I really hope he's not a Ricky Elmore. But when Arizona was popping out both Brooks Reed and Ricky Elmore, where Brooks went a bit higher and then Ricky fell a little bit more because of, you know, I think he had some injury concerns and whatever, but
00:59:16
Speaker
you know, maybe third, fourth round for Isaac. And you're looking at a productive possible star player out of them. Yeah, I think not to not to complete
00:59:33
Speaker
Mike, not to the counterpoint though, on Chob Robinson, what if the packers just big brain it and say they're not enough big linebackers and today's NFL, we're just going to move them to linebacker. Yeah. Cause like, like I said, that's where, that's where I, I would be totally on board with that. If you, like you said, they're going to big brain it because it's like, yeah.
00:59:55
Speaker
Yeah, I just don't trust that he's going to be a guy that you're like, because I don't think he can get up to like 255 even like without stuff that's going to get him suspended from the league for a window of eight games at a time. So it's like to me, like I said, chop is a really nice, like a knuckleball like he's that as if he's a defensive end only he's not even a curve ball. He's a knuckleball just to kind of put it into a like put it in a different term of like how
01:00:25
Speaker
special but limited his usage opportunity is going to be because you just can't trust that guy on rundowns at all. But as a Sam, I would trust him a lot more because that's a guy that you want shooting gaps to screw things up in blocking schemes or in the backfield. You want that guy running sideline to sideline. You want that guy blitzing from that doesn't really matter. Like I said, you don't want to throw out the Parsons cop just willy-nilly, but it's that.
01:00:53
Speaker
usage that you're like if we're gonna get that hell yeah I'll sign up for that at 25 like I'd even if if that's the plan I'd be okay with moving up for him because that's like you said Jake that's the kind of big brain stuff you've got to bring to the table to take chop in the first round because I
01:01:12
Speaker
Personally, I think he's more of like a day two, like mid to late day two, because like I said, there's a big portion of the game that I just can't trust him to ever be, forget good at playing, just even passable at playing. So that's where my limitation on Chop is. But if he's going to stand up and be a Sam, which he obviously has the athleticism and we've seen him do some of the stuff on tape, I'm game for that because yeah, that would be bang on your buck, return on investment kind of thing. So yeah, I'm game there, Jake.
01:01:40
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it was brought up and mentioned, well, you have to get Parsons. You have to get Parsons out of that deal. Because Parsons is the same thing, right? The Cowboys are sticking about there because he's a phenomenal passenger. He has 31 and a half inch arms. So he has to win with all that speed, all that explosiveness, and have shooting the A gap and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. And it was very clear that in the matchup, Christian Watson's breakout party, they could just run at him.
01:02:08
Speaker
And they will and they continue to run at him when they weren't, you know, throwing bombs up to Christian Watson, right for touchdowns. But that's the trade off that you're having to play. And Dallas kind of that's caught up to them with how they built their their unit is like, Yeah, we're gonna rush the passer. Well, okay. Enjoy give up seven yards of carry against better teams. So it's Yeah, the Chopper Robinson debate is going to be one that's I'm sure Packers, you know, fans and analysts and blogs and all that are going to be
01:02:34
Speaker
probably clashing over a little bit more as, as we get closer to draft, but I, Joe, yeah, Isaac, like he was like the only one who gave Fuaga trouble to senior bowl.
01:02:44
Speaker
other than other than latu or the first couple of days latu was trying stuff like latu was working spin moves into like chop rips and like just absolute nonsense that he was doing but like isaac gave fuaga trouble at the point where i heard a couple of people going so fuaga might need to move inside like i heard a couple of people just kind of murmur that after after one of the reps where isaac just went right around him and like yeah he's he's combined was 247
01:03:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. If, if they pivot to that and like, they're like, yeah, we need more undersized rusher. I'm so in, especially like you mentioned, if it's at like 88 or 91, it's just, I have no idea where this could be one of those strange years where like certain teams are going to value certain edge rushers way higher than others. You know, where our team is going to be with the Ellis injury, you know, Isaac versus chop, you know, our teams can see Darius Robinson there, Brandon Dorles, like all these guys.
01:03:38
Speaker
it can be wide ranging. Like there could be a team that's way out on Turner, way in on lot two and vice versa. And obviously scheme comes into it. But even with like the similar types of players, it just could be all over the place. So could Isaac have to be a pick at 58 potentially? It just, it's, it's how well does goodie know everybody drafting around him? And yeah, obviously that's a big part of it as well.
01:04:03
Speaker
And then for my guy, like if we just buck everything, Dallas Turner is my guy. And it's a little weird because he's more of a, more of a three foot, because okay, he measures out a little better than Chop does. And I do think this last year did a lot for Turner stock being a all around edge player, because he came into this 2023 college season with a lot of the questions, not to the extreme, extreme that Chop was, but a lot of the same questions. Is this guy only going to be a sub package rusher? You know, there was a reason that
01:04:33
Speaker
you know, Braswell and Anderson were the starters and Turner was the rotational guy kind of thing. It wasn't because of an upperclassman, underclassman kind of thing. It was because like, you know, David's like, I need my edge to suck the run kind of thing and stuff like that. And so, but I thought that Turner did a lot to just answer a lot of, you know, he covered either closed or covered up a lot of the holes in his game this past season.
01:04:55
Speaker
It's never going to be a really big guy, but I think he measured also at 247 at the combine. I think Turner and Isaac actually ended up measuring just physical measurements. They measured out similarly at the combine. And then he's not the explosive guy that Isaac is, but I think that he's a little bit more of a technician as a rusher. You saw Turner able to string a couple of different moves together in his pass rush, and then they did use him in reverse a little bit as well. And like I said,
01:05:25
Speaker
We've got ideas of what Halfly is and isn't as a defensive coordinator. And the question I have more than anything else is, I am curious what he's going to carry back over into the NFL from the time that he was with the 49ers, the time, and obviously he was with Ohio State, with Boston College. But he's had some interviews where he said, he's kind of almost flat out said, we did single high in college because I had to deal with quarterback run.
01:05:55
Speaker
And so it's like, okay, does that mean he's going to go back to too high when he gets back to the NFL? Or is he saying like, no, like I just really preferred single high. I'm still going to do it in the NFL. So there is an element of like, he did this a lot with his Boston college defense, but how much of that is, you know,
01:06:15
Speaker
It's Boston College, you know, he wasn't coaching at like Clemson or Bama or anything. He's, he's getting Boston College level athletes kind of thing. And, you know, some will say like, that's a, but it's like, it's true. It's like, okay, like he's getting the second and third, maybe even fourth tier guys to commit to him. So how much of his scheme is like, if I had a Rashawn Gary, if I had Jair Alexander, um, Quay Walker,
01:06:38
Speaker
I can do different shit because I've got playmakers that I couldn't, you know, I only wished upon a star every night that I would have in my defense. You watch like his middle linebackers and it's like, dude, it looks like me running sideline to like, forget sideline, like just from, from college hash to college hash. I was like, oh, that dude's not getting there. He's not getting outside the tackle box. And so,
01:07:02
Speaker
that's the part where i'm really i i kind of think that his defense is going to look like his boston college defense early in the season but i'm curious if by the time you get to like whenever the buy is so let's just say the end of the season how much of his coverage percentages have shifted from weeks one through four to the end of the season and then in there that in that that kind of is what will bring in what jake brought up is it's like gudakans has drafted edges a certain way through you know from
01:07:31
Speaker
Like I said, the Rashawn pick on, he's drafted a certain type of player. But when you combine what this class is made up of,
01:07:38
Speaker
like we said, Mafis is like, there's six guys that fit the mold of what they've done. Like we said, it's not set in stone, but just based on what Gurbakans has done, that's what he's got in this class. So between that new defensive coordinator and just maybe there's just the, like you said, Jake, maybe there's just a shift within the organization. It potentially opens up a lot of doors. But especially if you're going to add an edge in this class, like we said,
01:08:06
Speaker
just bend a couple thresholds a little bit or are they gonna go full galaxy brain say like yep we believe enough in chop or whoever to be our sam linebacker and you know it's edge from a certain point of view kind of thing so yeah that's that's the part of it that's really intriguing going into this draft class and makes um
01:08:27
Speaker
Like I said, I'm always okay with taking an edge in round one, but I just really don't know which one they would pick. Even if it won't happen,
01:08:37
Speaker
But if like, first, Turner, Chop are all available at 25, I have no clue which one Goot would take this year just because they're all so different and I have no idea what the direction is going to be and that's what makes it fascinating. I know some people are like, that makes them pessimistic about it or like scared or whatever.
01:09:00
Speaker
That to me is what makes it fascinating because I do think they need another edge, but I just have no clue what route they're going to take to get there on this one.
01:09:10
Speaker
So before you start, Jake, I'm going to be honest. I didn't watch either of the Alabama guys. So I cannot add anything to the conversation because I, those are a couple of guys that I figure have been watched and talked to death. So I really didn't pay much attention to him. So just looking at Dallas Turner's, you know, Raz, he's got a solid Raz. He's just a little bit short. Uh, I mean, short for a player six to
01:09:37
Speaker
But, you know, I've got nothing to add. So this is a whole you guys conversation. I'll keep
Profile and Fit of Dallas Turner
01:09:44
Speaker
it. I do think there is a sleeper we could talk about as well. And I'm sure that'll be fun. But Dallas Turner. Yeah. I think Mike, you brought up a great point. Like his coming into the like even May and June when it was like, all right, let's build out some like, oh, way too early mocks. Like who's the good players? It was like,
01:09:59
Speaker
The Dallas Turner conversation really wasn't like, this is what you have done for me. This is why you're going to be projected this high. It's like, this is where you should be and where we think you're going to be. And he did exactly what everybody was projecting him to do. He filled out his game really, really well.
01:10:16
Speaker
The play that's going to stick in my mind with, with turn, a couple of them, but one of them at six in my mind is watching him early in the game against LSU, carry Malik neighbors on a wheel route step for step. That's nuts. You don't see even, even guys of his side, like two 47 is not that big, but even guys at that size hearing it, a wide receiver is probably going top 10. No problem. Making me like double take and think it's a running back that he's covering.
01:10:42
Speaker
People just don't do that. And I think you kind of mentioned it like him versus Isaac. Isaac's definitely got more like that straight line explosive turn the corner. Turner is flexible and like he is really good change that inside move. I'm trying to come up with a guy in my mind just,
01:11:00
Speaker
who's got the better inside move them at this moment because of that flexibility combined with more bursts that he has. And then you add in, I think a guy who really tried to play the run. Well, you kind of mentioned chop was just kind of like, nah, nah, I'm fine. I'm fine. And like running back on the way. It's fine. Exactly. I think Turner just like has a really good eye for where he needs to be, where he has to get to, even when he's engaged with a blocker like that, that type of vision plus the length, right? 34 and three eights.
01:11:31
Speaker
We're talking, now we're talking like, like all of that together to me, I think pushes him like near that edge one conversation because he has a lot of those tools in the toolbox. But obviously it's going to get tougher even from SEC to NFL playing against NFL level tackles who are going to have a little bit more strength, going to have more push out of their stance against you. Like, can you be able to handle that?
01:11:53
Speaker
So move that guy all around and let him just kind of tee off and drop into coverage another. I don't know if I'd like him as much as a Sam as as as chop just because chop is like really built well low to the ground can move insane laterally but like Turner as like this pass rusher to come in and like oh yeah you can play a little bit of the run like he has really built himself into
01:12:15
Speaker
I don't want to say as complete a player as he could be, but almost to that point where it's like he has really filled out his profile that well. There's obviously certainly athletic ceiling that can make him more effective, but he has really filled himself with almost completely as he could, and it's impressive with him.
01:12:32
Speaker
Yeah, I know why you hesitate to put it in that term, Jake, because it almost is a negative to say like he's like filled out his game because it's like, oh, so this guy is not getting anywhere. It's like, no, it's like it's not that side of it. It's the he doesn't have the like holes in his game that he did. Like you said, he answered a lot of questions coming back this season. So yeah, and I think where I differentiate the two is it's like.
01:12:56
Speaker
You'd still prefer between him and Chop is like, Chop, we want him standing up. We want him three to five yards off the ball where he could see everything and just run to the football. Whereas with Turner, it's like, no, I want him in the trenches. I want him mixing it up. But if Halfly wants to throw in some zone blitz schemes, some just spot drops and things like that. Turner's a guy that you're like, yeah, he can do like.
01:13:18
Speaker
And like I said, it goes back to the like, Preston can do it. It's just that every time you're in a 3-4, you can't make it so damn obvious that it's like, that's the guy. And that's why I like, so people were like, so you're blaming Preston? I'm like, no, I wish for Preston's sake that Barry would be like, screw it, we're gonna blitz both the linebackers because
01:13:40
Speaker
That's a better use than everyone knowing where it's gonna be kind of thing and stuff So but yeah, that's where I have Turner a little bit different too is I'm like he can do extra things but also um, he's more on the line of scrimmage whereas chop like I want him to be off the line of scrimmage so
01:13:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think Turner's like that more flexible burst, like well put together player, just like a step up from where Will McDonald was last year, where a lot of people are viewing him like Turner feels more complete in a lot of areas, but it's the same thing. It's right. It's like, okay, McDonald's not super big, but he's got the length he can, you know, kind of leverage will against the run and does all that. But like Turner's kind of a step up, I think from from him, but that's
01:14:21
Speaker
that's kind of the profile I think you're kind of looking closely if you want to go to like the most recent player you could basically uh to compare Turner but yeah he is fascinating that we it's it's funny that we feel like you know if it was last year's draft and Turner was in it we wouldn't even be talking about it because we just know like that's it's just not the way that that Green Bay operates and now it's just like mommy the doors just or creek the door open just a little bit for guys like Turner
01:14:46
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm with you fellers. Thank you so much for joining us. It has been a fun, fun. Well, now hang on just a minute. Jake said he had a sleeper. I got a sleeper. Yeah. Okay. So this is like measurables, everything across the board, RAS.
01:15:05
Speaker
If you've, if Brian, if you've listened to Brian talk about, he's probably brought the name Eric Watts from Connecticut because it's, it's six, five, two 74 35 and three quarter inch arms. Like all of the testing numbers you could want out of a player and he can get to the long arm. Well, you, you watch him, you know, first two couple of steps off the ball are pretty good.
01:15:25
Speaker
He's still got a, he's got a long way to go, long way to go. Right. But this is the type of like athletic day three swing that if, if they're sticking to like, all right, good. He's like, this is what we're doing. We're not, we're not deviating from the planet all at this position. That's the day three swing that I think makes the most sense for them right now.
01:15:43
Speaker
to put it in relative terms, he would be like the Vikings taking chances on Everson Griffin and Daniel Hunter in that early day three range where it's like, you know what, just go get the super athlete and teach him the football
Exploring Sleeper Draft Picks
01:15:59
Speaker
kind of thing. So yeah, I agree. That's one of those where it's like, yeah.
01:16:05
Speaker
first guy off the bus kind of player and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, when, when I was trying to look for things to watch for him, a lot of the one, one on ones from the combine kept popping up and he just, he kept flashing on the screen with those. So yeah, I mean, he'd be something else. So yeah, I got you on that.
01:16:26
Speaker
Mike, you got any sleepers or anybody else you really want to talk about? Um, not just to keep it with the theme of it. I'll go quickly over the two Michigan guys for the element. Um, both so McGregor and Harold of either.
01:16:41
Speaker
The problem for them and why they, I can't see them going to Green Bay unless they're like undrafted free agent is, I think they would fit more if we were still in more of a 3-4 look because they're kind of that like, that open edge where it's like, he's half there to play coverage, half there to play, you know, to play it, he's there to play it in forward and reverse half the time kind of thing.
01:17:03
Speaker
I think Harold has the more likely chance of making it because I do think he has a little more upside to his game. Whereas I think McGregor he's kind of more of a UC is what you get and I think that's a function of he had a horrible knee injury his senior year of high school. The kind of joke on him was like he has the upper body of a redshirt senior but the lower body of a redshirt freshman because
01:17:24
Speaker
because like he just never really filled out his lower body but they're both too like the pluses for them is they're both really cerebral players McGregor has um the ability to like he doesn't have the it's surprising because you think he has these long arms when you see him but he actually only has 33 inch arms but he has a couple plays on film where he just pops in you're like
01:17:44
Speaker
like against Ohio State in 2022, he almost picked sixth C.J. Stroud at one point and he has a few plays every now and then and he does that surf technique where he's just like able to spread his body and play both the running back and the quarterback well and
01:18:01
Speaker
Michigan had some like, you know, there is Isaiah Stewart and Derek Moore, who you're more prototypical edge rushers that you're like, why aren't these guys going to just bend the edge and get to the corner? But it's like, Michigan never wanted to take both of Harold and McGregor off the field because they're like, if there's any kind of option, any kind of thinking man's play, these two guys, you just can't run it at them and stuff. And Harold, you saw him do some stuff where he's like, I jokingly say he's like a poor man's turner because
01:18:31
Speaker
Um, I think he had a play, I think it was a fourth down where he took, um, he took Stover up the seam against Ohio State on like fourth and two. Um, and he didn't break up the pass, but like the fact that he was in phase with Stover, like 30 yards downfield was enough for an edge kind of thing. And then he just makes some plays where you're like.
01:18:50
Speaker
The and the thing for both of them is like whenever they they get a sack you're like oh he has that in his back pocket like kind of thing and stuff so Like I said more guys that you if you see them drafted They're going like fifth six round or later kind of thing But I wouldn't be shocked if they got signed as a street free agent because there is like like I said They're like a high floor
01:19:12
Speaker
smart edge, like run setting, not going to get beat on a zone read kind of edge, but might not have the pass rush upside.
Spotlight on Mohammed Kamara
01:19:20
Speaker
So just keeping with the trend of all the, the, the previews I've been on, there's your Michigan recap. Well, I just, I, I got, I want to touch on one Jake.
01:19:31
Speaker
did earlier, and I'm not going to add any more to it, but I did like Marshawn Neland. I got to see a little bit more of them than a lot of other people did because he was a terror against Iowa this year. So I mean, he had Cade McNamara running for his life out there. But there's one that I really like that just going off his stat, his statistics or his build and all that.
01:19:58
Speaker
Green Bay is probably not going to touch with a 10 foot pole. But I really liked what I saw out of him is Mohammed Kamara out of Colorado State. He was one of the few that I watched that had the multiple moveset. And he would use the multiple moveset. He had a spin. He had the bull rush. He had all that. But poor guy is only 6'1", 248.
01:20:24
Speaker
So I don't see them taking them unless it's like a mid to late round and they're hoping to put them at the same linebacker spot. Like we were just talking about with chop and that. So that would probably be my sleeper guy, but it's got to be a late, if not, you know, you DFA or something.
01:20:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a good one. He's one of the few guys where I forget if this was on film or at the Shrine Bowl now because there's everybody sure so many clips online. But it was like he works an inside move and he kind of gets stopped initially. And then he just kind of unlocks a little bit of element of power and just because he happened to push you over instead. It's kind of like, Oh, wow, that's just not something you see every day. And when you have plays that jump out like that, obviously, you know, you want to see everything and you know, as you see that consistency. But Joe, as you kind of pointed out, he's got moves. And so like,
01:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, he is a player that it's, but you know, you never know. Come back in the conversation because, you know, where are we? Right? Like where? Yeah. This defense. What are we thinking? Like there's just so many options that it's like for some of these guys, you just can't quite eliminate them because it's just, it's, it's kind of a new data set that we're starting with here.
Unpredictability in Draft Choices
01:21:43
Speaker
And so that's exciting.
01:21:45
Speaker
So, and that's, that's the perfect thing to say is, you know, we, we have no clue at this moment, which leads me back to what I said at the beginning of the show. It just, that's what makes it fun watching stuff for the Packers is because you never know what they'll do with it. And, and, and, uh, I, I know you guys probably aren't like wrestling guys, but
01:22:06
Speaker
Uh, my favorite wrestler in the whole world just retired a couple of weeks ago, Sting. And one of the things that he always said was the thing you, uh, what is it? It's, uh, the thing you'd know about Sting is that there's, you never know what.
01:22:26
Speaker
uh what sting will do and that's and that's shitty paraphrasing but the only things that's for sure about sting is nothing is for sure yeah nothing is for sure okay
01:22:39
Speaker
That's it. Uh, Quanto knows it a little bit better than I do. Oh no, I have to look it up because I was like, I do love that cold kind of thing. So yeah, I was like, I have to look that up for Joe. And it's, it fits perfect with what the Packers do for their draft is you never know what they're going to do, but you know, they're going to do something.
01:22:58
Speaker
Yeah, no doubt. So we're going to put a bow on today's episode. Want to thank Jake so much. Jake, please once again, promote everything that you do, everything that you're on. Get it out. Tell us your life story, your social media number. For the dozen people that are listening to this podcast, you have to know what Jake Shavink is all about.
01:23:19
Speaker
Yeah.
Conclusion and Promotions
01:23:20
Speaker
Uh, so doing YouTube videos, of course, uh, that's kind of where I'm putting a lot of focus cause draft season now. And you know, there's some schools that will allow you to use some of their stuff, which is nice, but, uh, yeah. So working on draft videos of their Jake's who've been gonna fell, um,
01:23:36
Speaker
And then, yeah, you can follow me at Jake NFL draft on Twitter and, uh, yeah, follow the Packard at podcasts. There's a lot going on over there. And I, and I basically kind of stick to the draft stuff as, as a wide scope. Cause all of course, all the rest are leaning heavily Packers, but yeah, it's busy season and that's, that's what makes it so much fun.
01:23:56
Speaker
Right on. Yeah, thank you so much Jay for coming on. That's going to do it for 2024 Edge class preview. This has been the Ohana Packers Edition podcast. Please follow the podcast on Twitter at Ohana underscore Packers. You must be following that one, not Joe or my individual ones to be eligible for our drawings.
01:24:18
Speaker
I did get in touch with the guy that won and he's in Puerto Rico. We're going to get it sent out hopefully right. So that one is done, but keep an eye out. We still got the one running for the five 23 for the Jair eight by 10. Uh, and
01:24:37
Speaker
maybe we'll throw something else in at like four something and go from there. Sounds good. But yep. So you must be following the pods on Twitter account. Please follow the podcast on your favorite podcasting apps. Give us a like and a subscribe if you're enjoying what you're hearing and whether positive or negative, please give us feedback comments. We do appreciate those because we want to be putting out the content you want to listen to. Except for you, mafia. Leave us the hell alone. Ignored blocked.
01:25:08
Speaker
Like, one more time. Thank you, Jake Shevig, for joining us on the Hana Practice Edition podcast. Go Pack Go and Aloha.