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Molly Martens
326 Plays3 months ago
In this episode of the Mothers of All Crime Podcast we are delving into a case featured in the documentary "A Deadly American Marriage" on Netflix. Nobody disputes that Molly and her father killed Molly's husband (and former employer) Jason Corbett but there is A LOT of speculation regarding why. Initially Jason's kids back Molly's version of events but an abrupt change in story leads to a confusing court case, a harsh conviction, an appeal and much distress for all involved. Was this a case of self-defense? Was Jason abusive? What REALLY happened to his first wife? Was Molly manipulating the children? Join us for our thoughts, feelings and opinions regarding this case.
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:23
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
Case Introduction: Molly Martins and Jason Corbett
00:00:58
Speaker
Welcome back to the Mothers of All Crime. This week we're going to be talking about Molly Martins and Jason Corbett and the documentary A Deadly American Marriage. How are we doing, Crystal?
00:01:09
Speaker
I'm good. How are you? Very, very well. I'm excited to talk about this documentary and this case. I am too. I thought the documentary when was really good. I think it was a different layout than what we're used to in a lot of these documentaries because they are getting really popular.
Documentary Style and Impact
00:01:28
Speaker
it was nice to see producers kind of approach it from a different angle. Yes, um I definitely agree. i felt like it was moving. It was very interesting. You really felt for the people involved and it felt, i don't if victim focused is the right way to say it, but it did feel like the um the person who has passed away, it felt like there was a big feature on them and their family, which was nice and it was interesting.
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I think they brought in a good amount of people. like Everyone in the documentary felt relevant because I think there have been times yeah we've watched ones before and I'm like, why are they talking to this person?
00:02:13
Speaker
um I think on this case, every person that got introduced from the attorneys to the friends of the couple to the kids, I think it was all very relevant, which was a nice – it didn't feel like there was wasted time.
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah, it was all the main players.
Family Interviews' Role
00:02:31
Speaker
And it's definitely more interesting to watch when the immediate family is agreeing to be interviewed and agreeing to go on camera. And you're able to get these insights from within the family on both sides.
00:02:43
Speaker
Definitely adds to the complexity of the story. Yeah. And then on top of it, it kind of turned into like a United States versus Ireland kind of presentation. Yeah.
00:02:56
Speaker
Which, yes, was kind of an interesting take on it. And i'm I don't remember this in the media during the time, so I can't really say one way or another.
00:03:08
Speaker
But it felt very dramatic of being like the entire country ah basically was against the United States and against this incident. Like it felt very dramatic, but it could have been.
00:03:20
Speaker
and just don't know.
Jason's Life Before Molly
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I feel like probably for the people involved, it felt that way. And then maybe for the people that were really engaged in this particular case, like following in the media.
00:03:31
Speaker
And I do think it kind of got presented as like Ireland versus America when it really... wasn't about that, but it it did seem that way in some aspects um in a couple different ways.
00:03:46
Speaker
So basically Jason Corbett was from Ireland. He grew up in Limerick, Ireland, and that's where his family is. And that's where he lived with his first wife, Mags, and they had two little kids.
00:04:01
Speaker
And then Mags passed away 2006 and two thousand six And at the time, everyone believed that it was an asthma attack. And I'm not saying it wasn't an asthma attack, but there have been some things called into scrutiny about that.
00:04:17
Speaker
Which we'll get into.
Molly's Entry and Marriage
00:04:20
Speaker
We'll definitely get into that. I just think it's important to mention that that is sometimes disputed. And so Marg's passed away, and Jason is now a single dad to two small kids, Jack and Sarah,
00:04:35
Speaker
and ends up getting an au pair from America named Molly Martins.
00:04:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's important to also note that during this time, Americans being au pairs in countries around the world was very trendy.
00:04:53
Speaker
Like, I know a bunch of people that kind of in that rough time frame, kind of a couple years later, that that's how they spent their summers, like between school or gar graduated college and didn't really know what they wanted to do. They went and became an au pair. So I don't think...
00:05:10
Speaker
It's a crazy thing to be done. And also, i from what I understood, they went through an agency. like It wasn't like he found her on Facebook and was like, hey, you want to come live with me? Yeah, no, it's a legit thing and it's not uncommon to do. It's basically just having a nanny that lives with you that wants the opportunity to live in another place.
00:05:32
Speaker
And so sometimes people do that, you know, they come from Canada, they want to spend the summer in LA, they want to spend the summer in New York City, something like that where people have a high demand for au pairs and nannies.
00:05:44
Speaker
And it, you know, maybe it was just a good solution for a single dad who worked a lot of hours and was very successful Had the money, didn't have the time.
Family Dynamics and Tensions
00:05:53
Speaker
so she basically, you know, moved in and took over all the household responsibilities.
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think in this situation, he he really needed that female role in his life. Because like you said, he was working a ton hours, but it kind of also seemed like he had a void. That's how it was presented.
00:06:13
Speaker
um From like a quick search, Europeans and au pairs are not abnormal either. It is and not a shock, I think, for anyone that he got some help coming in, particularly with his wife passing away.
00:06:28
Speaker
But when I started the documentary, was, roughly knowing where the story's going my brain instantly went with of course she was the au pair like with her because soon they started getting closer they started a romantic relationship and they ended up getting married and again my brain was of course it was the babysitter of course like of course it was it's such a cliche yeah
00:07:03
Speaker
Mm-hmm. It really, i mean, it really is. It's a stereotype. And it's like one of those things where you kind of roll your eyes. And I'm sure a lot of people in his life did as well. I mean, she's much younger.
00:07:15
Speaker
cheerful is beautiful, blonde, tiny, and just very different from his first wife and like someone, I guess in Ireland, she'd be considered exotic.
00:07:29
Speaker
And i think that, you know, it was, Very exciting. And also when you see someone in like a mothering role to your kids, it it seems like I could see how that would happen.
00:07:41
Speaker
Oh, 100%. And again, you have someone who is there for you, taking care of you, taking care of your kids. Like it it would feel very natural to start to build emotions towards that.
00:07:56
Speaker
And from what was presented, she seemed like a really nice girl, like that it was a fortunate thing that she came in and loved these kids and the kids really bonded with her, which is what any parent wants with their step parent. You want them to love your kids and your kids to love them. So it at the beginning, it seemed like a really nice situation.
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah, very convenient because now she'll just live with you and take care of the kids and I guess you don't even really have to pay her anymore.
00:08:35
Speaker
Very true. Yeah.
Cultural Tensions in North Carolina
00:08:38
Speaker
So it's actually a really good deal now if you think about it. And when we talk about the Ireland versus America thing, it kind of starts here as well because they end up moving – to North Carolina in the States to be closer to Molly's family and starting a new life in America with the kids.
00:09:00
Speaker
And so that's like the first real tug against Ireland. And for Molly, you know, she never planned to stay in Ireland forever. And it was always going to be a temporary thing.
00:09:11
Speaker
But I think for Jason's family, they were pretty surprised that he was leaving the country.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, again, it's the – anyone who leaves their home country, people going to be surprised. Like if I all a sudden an up and moved Italy, everyone's going to like, wow, really? Like, are you sure?
00:09:29
Speaker
– my spouse was from another country, their whole families are like, yeah, 100% come back home. So it's really you have that strain on, it was going to be there regardless of just what side of the family was on.
Molly's Character and Identity Issues
00:09:44
Speaker
But I think with a lot of it is that her parents were going to be very involved in helping with them and helping with the kids and their family and Financially, your money is going to go farther. They went from a small kind of home in one place to a large extravagant kind of upper like class lifestyle.
00:10:09
Speaker
Because that they talking to the kids, they were like, they really just were shocked about the size of everything coming over. So it probably was a multitude of things that made that decision happen. Mm-hmm.
00:10:23
Speaker
But... I also think it's where we start to see Molly kind of turn in from just the caretaker, someone who they truly loved and wanted, but to become a mom, like a hundred percent kids are calling her mom. Yeah.
00:10:43
Speaker
ah she's introducing them as her children. But I also think that's where we start to see some of Molly's character get cracked, um where she's starting to more or less lie to people that, for example, she told someone that she gave birth to Sarah, who is Jason's daughter with his widow.
00:11:09
Speaker
Molly is clearly not the birth mother. um saying that Molly saying she had a sister who passed away that also didn't exist. So when they come back to the interstate, we start seeing these cracks of, okay, maybe she's not as perfect as everybody thought she was.
Adoption Desires and Custody Concerns
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I do think that's very bizarre behavior to tell people an entire birth story for a child that you certainly did not give birth to. um And I think it shows like her overstepping her boundaries and just completely wanting to take over the family instead of becoming an addition to it.
00:11:46
Speaker
And I think that she, you know, she wanted to be mommy and she wanted to be the main focus in the kids lives. And she would bring up a lot that she wanted to adopt them.
00:11:59
Speaker
And it seems like Jason was kind of entertaining that in the beginning. And then he started to make it seem like he wasn't going to have her adopt the kids.
00:12:12
Speaker
Yeah, which i I see both sides of. like if i You obviously want to protect your children. And we saw a lot of examples of documentation where he really was trying to protect his kids on, i don't want them to get hurt again, more or less, which is fair.
00:12:31
Speaker
And I like that that was a thought process for him. But I also see the other side of it is I'm raising the kids, they already call me mom, I do all the activities, I do the schooling, I do all that.
00:12:45
Speaker
Why can't I? It's not like they have a step parent, like a another mom that they're going to on weekends. Like there is no one else in the picture. So I do kind of see both sides of it at that point.
00:12:58
Speaker
I mean, I could definitely understand why Molly would want to adopt them and establish rights because as a step-parent, she has rights while they're married. But when you if you were to separate, you would not necessarily be able to retain any rights unless you do step-parent adoption.
00:13:17
Speaker
And then it would protect her in custody situations. And for Jason, i think that he... was trying to be pragmatic and realistic about the fact that they may not stay married forever. And if he, if they were to split up, he probably would take the kids back to Ireland.
00:13:35
Speaker
So he wouldn't want to be in a custody battle with someone who's based in the United States. Might make him hard to make it hard for him to even leave. Kids are enrolled in school here.
00:13:47
Speaker
They're living in another country. They're established here. So if he shares his rights, then maybe she could make a case that the kids should stay here. And then he's trapped. Right. and even even as a step parent, you only have as much rights and control as the biological parent allows.
00:14:08
Speaker
So like if they're in public school as a stepparent, you can't just go and collect them without the biological parents permission. um So it is interesting that kind of connection.
00:14:23
Speaker
um And she, I guess, continued to bring it up. Like it wasn't something she brought up once and then it was never talked about again. it was something consistently that she kept trying to do.
00:14:37
Speaker
which again, now you have the question mark of boundaries. You got an answer once, twice, the third time, yet here we are asking again.
Marital Tensions and Abuse Allegations
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah. I think that she just thought that she could just, if she tried hard enough, if she pushed hard enough, she'd be able to get what she wanted. Yeah.
00:14:58
Speaker
And in her defense, that, that, role has worked for her because Jason would say, would say i want to slow down this relationship. i want to make sure my kids are okay with everything.
00:15:09
Speaker
Molly would then push. I don't want to wait. I want to keep going, move faster, get engaged, move to the United get married. yeah exactly. So, I mean, it seemed like from what they were presenting in the documentary and the timelines that have come out that even though things looked really good and normal from the outside, there was a lot of tension and conflict happening inside the house between Molly and Jason and that the kids were with witnessing a lot of disagreements and harsh words.
00:15:44
Speaker
They show a series of recordings that Molly had been audio recording, filming Jason. And it's, it doesn't make Jason look great.
00:15:55
Speaker
The arguments that they show in the documentary. I mean, it looks like they're having petty, snappy marital disagreements and he is not kind or nice and he's pretty demeaning in the recordings, but he also does not know that he's being recorded and she does.
00:16:14
Speaker
So I think that, She's on her very best behavior and he doesn't know that he needs to be, which obviously gives her an advantage in the videos, which is just, you know, just a thought.
00:16:27
Speaker
But also it speaks to um a lack of trust that you're recording things in a relationship anyway. Although that is what I would advise someone to do if they were being abused. So I could kind of see both sides of that as well.
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, i I was just going to say the context I think is important because, again, we don't know officially when she started recording it, but from her narrative, she had met with ah friend or neighbor or whoever it was who was a family attorney.
00:16:58
Speaker
who she had talked to about how the kids and the right stuff work in the case of a divorce with the abuse. And the recommendation was to start recording things, documenting things so that there would be some kind of support to the abuse claims. And that's kind of what sparked the recordings.
00:17:19
Speaker
And I do think you're right about she, ah she obviously knows, so she might be on more best behavior, The thing that I picked up on for it is not necessarily her.
00:17:31
Speaker
It was the kids that were also caught on these tapes because you had one of the examples. The daughter had done something reacted to something or whatever the case was.
00:17:43
Speaker
And Jason snapped her And then it turned into, she's just scared. Like, it's okay. And then even the son was like, yeah, no, she was just scared. Like, from, because he smacked the table. And, like, my focus was more of the fact that he the anger turns.
00:18:02
Speaker
And the whole point that the got brought up in the documentary is they were trying to prove that Jason wasn't this nice, charismatic, family-oriented, super great guy that his whole family was presenting him as.
00:18:19
Speaker
And when you are trying to fight that narrative... they're They're not wrong in saying people who are significant abusers a lot of the time on the outside are these super nice, super caring.
00:18:35
Speaker
They present this really perfect, happy life. But behind closed doors, that's not the case. So I think the introduction of those recordings was not only from the court standpoint, but from the documentary standpoint, it shows that not everything is on surface level is always the same when it's just you guys. so
00:19:00
Speaker
Definitely a good point. And I think that. you could look at it in multiple ways. Like anybody being judged off their very worst behavior would look pretty bad.
00:19:11
Speaker
But also i agree that it's pretty significant that he was willing to be so nasty and be so harsh in front of the kids and towards the kids because it wasn't all just directed at Molly.
00:19:23
Speaker
was also directed at the kids who he, you know, loved so much and wanted to protect so much, but they were also getting caught in the crossfires and That's not a good situation for anyone.
00:19:35
Speaker
And so I am of two minds, I suppose, about it. I think that it definitely does not make him look good. Oh, yeah.
00:19:46
Speaker
No, I agree. i I back and forth because then like there was a note from a doctor that he reported that he – like there was a change in his behavior where he's noticing he's getting angry more for no reason and wanted to like try to address it. So it was – I think this was a change for him. I don't think it necessarily was like he was always super angry all the time.
00:20:10
Speaker
Or at least maybe he was trying to – maybe he was and he finally was trying to address it. Like we we just don't know. ah but i I go back and forth too because if we have – things that contradict each other a lot throughout this whole thing.
00:20:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's the common theme is a lot of contradictory stuff. And it it seems like things should be very cut and dry, but they're kind of complex and nuanced. And we see that throughout the case that even though we know pretty much exactly what happened, we still don't really know what happened.
00:20:44
Speaker
and Even the judge ends up saying that. Exactly. Where it's like, this doesn't
Jason's Death: Self-Defense or Murder?
00:20:50
Speaker
make sense. And it's like, clearly... something happened and we know the order of events, but it's just like, who is truly at fault here is the, is the point.
00:21:01
Speaker
So, I mean, this is bringing us up to August 2nd, 2015, which is when this ideal family really shattered and all the illusions came away and Jason Corbett died a very, very violent,
00:21:16
Speaker
horrible death. um So basically police were called and Jason was discovered be bludgeoned to death. The weapons, plural, were a heavy landscaping brick and a baseball bat.
00:21:35
Speaker
Molly and her father, Thomas, who it happened to be a retired FBI agent, claimed that this was self-defense, that Jason unarmed. attacking Molly, strangling her, and that Molly and Thomas beat him to death in retaliation for this. Not in retaliation, to stop him from doing this.
00:21:59
Speaker
And his injuries, his autopsy was consistent with multiple repeated blows by multiple blunt objects. So this was not just you know a one-strike defense. This was an ongoing, very violent interaction.
00:22:16
Speaker
between the three of them.
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah. Um, my first thought was who has a construction brick in their bedroom? Exactly. Was my the story made no sense.
00:22:30
Speaker
It made no sense. They said that they were going to be painting the bricks and all, everybody said that the kids said that Molly said that, but even if you were going to paint it and it was going to rain,
00:22:43
Speaker
You wouldn't put it in your bedroom. Why is it not in the kitchen? Or like the dining room or the plate, like garage. The activity was going to be
00:22:52
Speaker
She said it was going to rain. So they brought it inside. Nobody would put that in their room, something dirty that was in the ground. And this is not a small little tiny place that they live. They live in a big house with a garage, with a deck.
00:23:08
Speaker
There was plenty of places that could have been. And then, all right, just to play devil's advocate, there are plenty of times that I have walked somewhere, put something down, and then because I got to, or like, went to go put something in the garage, and then and a child is like, hey, I need the blah, blah, blah. You're like, okay, and you just change what you're doing, and you're still holding this stupid brick, and you end up in your bed.
00:23:34
Speaker
Like, But again, my first instinct was this is ridiculous. Why they here? But then the other part of me is like, well, mom brain or parent brain or even nanny brain. Like if you're distracted, all of a sudden I'm putting my phone in the like refrigerator and I don't know where it is. Right.
00:23:52
Speaker
ah like I mean, definitely true. Although you would think a brick would be like a big, heavy. i know. And that's why this object is a terrible defense. But felt to mention.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, it is possible. And it is. possible And people do weird stuff, you know, and people do stuff that are is gross and that defies logic. So it's not like it's impossible that she did put the brick in her room, either by accident or by intention.
00:24:22
Speaker
It is possible. It just doesn't seem. It's just like the most likely explanation for why the brick is there. But also there maybe would have been other things they could have used other than a brick if they were premeditating this.
00:24:35
Speaker
Correct. And i also think it's important to note here that the scene when being reviewed
00:24:46
Speaker
they it was It was gory to the point of horrifying. Oh my gosh. The attorneys had a hard time talking about this actual crime scene when they were doing interviews on it and it takes a lot to get those attorneys who have seen some of the worst things that happen not wanting to talk about things and even the pictures that they showed on the documentary and that are available online it
00:25:18
Speaker
it there's just blood everywhere it's a disaster it multiple firms in the house and that's where they start to kind of start piecing together the order of events because you have the blood spatter you have the trails it's just now figuring out the order that it happened right which is very significant here and the crime scenes were absolutely ghastly terrible there was just bloody handprints everywhere and bizarrely Molly and Thomas were not very injured at all they had like little scrapes and bruises but it was extremely minimal they didn't have any serious injuries and Jason was ah gory mess which is just you know it's interesting based on what they said happened
00:26:16
Speaker
Yeah. So when Molly sat down with police, um her narrative more or less was that her and her husband got in a fight, which was not unusual. um Her, the daughter had a nightmare and got up in the middle of the night.
00:26:31
Speaker
He got mad and then started choking Molly. um At which point she grabbed the brick from the nightstand and hit him on the head and shoulder.
00:26:45
Speaker
um However, we also need to keep in mind her dad was with them. um I don't know if they were officially living there, and dad, or if they were visiting.
00:26:58
Speaker
They were visiting, right? they were They were visiting, and that becomes important later because, well, I guess it's important at this point, too. So they lived about four hours away, and they weren't planning Like two weeks before, a week before or whatever to come there, they actually had other plans that they canceled and said that they just decided to go stay at Molly's for the day because it was like such beautiful weather.
00:27:26
Speaker
Like one of the interviews the dad is doing throughout the documentary. So they kind of last minute decided to go and stay over. Yeah. And then his, again, simultaneously being interviewed by PD, he's, his name is Tom, um claims that Molly yelled for help.
00:27:47
Speaker
He heard them fighting and he intervened with a baseball bat and struck Jason. And what I thought was wild is during this, car like when Sharon, Molly's mom, was interviewed, her statement was that she woke up from her daughter's scream, her husband went to go check it out, and then she just rolled over and went back to sleep.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, i didn't find that believable either. You're not a little curious? Not even you're curious, but like... You're not worried? Yeah, like your daughter is screaming.
00:28:29
Speaker
and you And in theory, if we go with Molly's virgin, you know that there's a history of abuse happening in this relationship.
00:28:41
Speaker
A, what do you you're not going to do anything. B, now that we know how gory, horrific, intense this argument becomes slash the death of Jason, that's not a quiet situation that just happens.
00:29:01
Speaker
You just sleep through that whole thing?
00:29:05
Speaker
You don't go get the kids and be like, hey, let's go like on and up. like You just go back to sleep. I can't.
00:29:15
Speaker
It's not believable. It's not believable at all. Because if you really heard someone being bludgeoned to death with a bat and a brick, I mean, that would be extremely loud and terrifying.
00:29:28
Speaker
And you would think that she would be calling the police and trying to get herself, the kids, out of the house. Right. Right.
00:29:39
Speaker
Especially since she fancied herself a grandmother to the kids because they'd fully taken on grandparent roles. So if you're so worried that your your daughter has this awful husband and you're so worried about the kids, I mean, there's no way that you would just roll back and go back to sleep.
00:29:56
Speaker
And even if you did, you would wake up again. Right. And that, yeah, again, like if say you, you're like, all right, cool, honey, go deal with that because you're a man. You're going to go talk to the man, whatever.
00:30:11
Speaker
Roll back over, go to sleep. Fine. That part I can get on board with. I don't necessarily agree, but I can get on board. It's the part where she just continued to sleep is really what gets me. Like, there's just no way.
00:30:26
Speaker
But anyway, Tom continues to do his interview.
Police Interviews and Children's Testimonies
00:30:30
Speaker
um And he's claiming that when he entered the room, Jason had Molly by the throat saying, I'm going to kill her.
00:30:40
Speaker
Let her go. There's a back and forth. Jason tried to grab the bat and then he started hitting him. And ah again, but one thing he is doing this interview and he's extremely calm, extremely composed.
00:30:55
Speaker
Molly's
00:30:59
Speaker
kind of crying, very disheveled, like very shocked. Like her reaction during the interview that I watched, I could, i I did believe like she definitely seemed like she was in some kind of distress, shock, shock.
00:31:15
Speaker
A little bit of like a horror feeling. but then I got to remind myself, Tom was retired FBI. He had a history with the counterintelligence department and the criminal department.
00:31:27
Speaker
And... We have no idea what he saw in his career. So if you're working on cases that have a lot of gory, horrific things, like he might, you get a desensitization to a point, but also...
00:31:47
Speaker
with how long he was in it, he has been trained in how deception works, how manipulation works, how an interrogations work, how questioning a victim works. So keeping the back of our head, he has all this extensive training on how to communicate with police and what words they're looking for and how open question ended questions work. And,
00:32:11
Speaker
body language and all the things that they're looking at while they're talking to a victim that when you're in shock, you don't always control. So I thought the difference there was very significant.
00:32:25
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, he can remain calm under pressure and that makes sense with the career that he had. And it makes sense that Molly is not as calm And that to me is pretty believable that she would be pretty shocked and horrified regardless of her intentions or anything like that. it would have been.
00:32:47
Speaker
extremely traumatic would imagine 100 like just think of like the normal person right like if don't know oh someone's bleeding everywhere in front of our group of friends you probably would be very calm under the situation like all right let's respond this way versus we have other friends that would probably lose their mind if someone barged into a home in an aggressive way i'm probably going to be a little bit more calm than other people that we know who made yeah like it just you got to think of like the training that you have as an individual but also flight fight fear and freeze like you also have those instinctual responses on how you respond to things
00:33:36
Speaker
Absolutely. Definitely. So I thought they were pretty compelling in their interviews. um But the real the real thing, the real interviews, I guess, that mattered were the interviews with the kids.
00:33:51
Speaker
That became kind of a critical point in this case. And initially the kids were saying that their father, Jason, was really mean and abusive. And they gave pretty compelling stories in Molly's defense.
00:34:11
Speaker
And then the children were, pretty much turned completely on those stories and said that they never witnessed any abuse and that they were actually asleep during the attack on the night that their father passed away and don't know what happened.
00:34:29
Speaker
So that testimony, you know, those and the and the early interviews did not match the later interviews that were actually not used in court.
00:34:42
Speaker
Yeah, the fact that none of it went, none of those testimonies got to court, I did think was kind of odd.
00:34:51
Speaker
Yeah, none of the early interviews made it into court the first, well, the first go around.
00:34:58
Speaker
ah One thing I do want to point out is the way the kids were interviewed. um So child advocacy facilities, and there are, in my opinion, just not enough of them. This is something that i personally feel very strongly. There should be so many of them because the people in these advocacy are specifically trained to talk to children about trauma and and do interviews that are less dramatic for them, but also at an age-appropriate level.
00:35:33
Speaker
Because when you have a police officer, for example, who talks to a grown adult, they're going to be able to grasp the full picture of the situation.
00:35:47
Speaker
Kids don't understand a lot of it. And also, they can't always recognize when thoughts are not their own thoughts. But kids are also very truthful for the most part.
00:36:02
Speaker
And when you're talking to a kid, you get you ask questions kind of more around If they make a statement of – with this example. So daddy hit mommy one or two times and physically and verbally abused her.
00:36:19
Speaker
Okay. So who told you that? Who told you? How do you know that? Well, mom told me. And then you're looking at verbs, verbiage, right? Like most five-year-olds aren't going to sit there and tell you that they were verbally assaulted by their parent.
00:36:34
Speaker
They're going to say mommy was mean to me. And they're looking for clues here during these interviews that, okay, are these the kids' words? Is it coaching?
00:36:44
Speaker
And when we watch some of the interviews, the son, for example, mentioned the nightmare that his sister had.
00:36:55
Speaker
Which he wouldn't have known other like if someone hadn't told him. This is not his memory. And that's where they start trying to navigate it. And again, i think these programs are so important because...
00:37:13
Speaker
it It helps, A, police understand if there's coaching, if there's something happening, but also it's less traumatic for these kids. They're controlled environments. They've got a lot of things and trainings, and also most of them have additional supports. so why The one local to me...
00:37:32
Speaker
Does these forensic interviews. But also will offer. Therapy for the kids afterwards. If they have a therapy dog. They're like hey. like Let's process some of the stuff we just talked about afterwards. like They do their best. To get from every angle.
00:37:48
Speaker
To help. Trauma.
Custody Battle and Children's Relocation
00:37:51
Speaker
And I don't think. our justice system does a good job of like dealing with the trauma that sometimes an investigation can cause.
00:38:02
Speaker
They're like, we did our investigation. You're on your own. Okay. Bye. So I'm glad that the original interview was with a program like this. And I would personally be very curious if they like followed up with the resources. But again, the kids moved back to Ireland. So never got the opportunity to if there were resources.
00:38:21
Speaker
That's true. Because almost right away, Molly's asking about if the kids are going staying with her. and like when she leaves, because she wasn't immediately arrested.
00:38:32
Speaker
She was... you know, still thinking that she was going to be retaining custody of the kids. And i mean, that is not what ended up happening. And they ended up going to live with Jason's sister in Ireland and her family.
00:38:46
Speaker
And Molly basically, I mean, she never really saw them again except for in court. So, yeah So I will say it was kind of odd to me that in the will, hit the children were left to be raised by his sister.
00:39:10
Speaker
And not his wife. I did find that odd. um Grants keeping things probably you for the best, but it is an odd circumstance where for one of your kids, this is the only mother that they know because they were too young to remember their birth mother.
00:39:32
Speaker
And now you're going to move them to somewhere. You know what i mean? Like it just, it felt a little odd to me. I think that was just another example of Jason already having one foot out the door. I mean, he was talking to lawyers. He was figuring out divorce stuff. He was not allowing her to adopt the kids. Like, he didn't want her to have them, didn't want her to have any rights to them.
00:39:58
Speaker
But even from the beginning, like, at no point was where the kids ever left her.
00:40:06
Speaker
I don't know why he married her, but I don't think he really trusted her to raise the kids full time. and not beyond Not beyond her capacity as a nanny, basically. like He was like, you can watch them while I'm here, but you're not good enough to have them on your own.
00:40:22
Speaker
I want them to be with my real family, basically. I don't think he was that committed. Yeah. And I see that. But from like the kids perspective at this point now they've lost three parents. Like now they're yeah starting over again with these new people that obviously they knew who they were but moving and living with someone and knowing and seeing them on a holiday the two very different things. Yeah.
00:40:46
Speaker
um Fast forward, it seems like they they integrated great and they became another family, even to the point of kind of referring to them as mom and dad, um which is really good to hear, but it it takes time, right? Like it's a hard transition to not only have to process the gravity of the situation, but also, all right, well, now I have a whole new family and a whole new life. Like,
00:41:13
Speaker
the poor things. I know they really did not have a lot of stability at all and I'm so glad that they have like an aunt and uncle that are so committed to them now and they do seem really great and the family seems very established and settled and I'm sure it's been ah positive experience for the kids to be around their dad's family because no matter what he was really like, I think for the kids, it's important for them to remember him as being great. And maybe he was great.
00:41:44
Speaker
I'm not saying that he wasn't, but I'm just saying that to be convinced at some point that your father was so awful and to have so many allegations about him and then to be with people that are very firmly on the, your dad was awesome side of things is probably pretty healing.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think, and this is my personal opinion, i think neither parent was a superstar. I think Molly and Jason both had their issues just in different kind of issues.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah. um I think Molly, there's a lot of evidence of maybe some mental health stuff, some self-harming, and obviously a lot of manipulation from the lies and things that we've seen. um There's a lot more that we didn't mention, but it it's interesting interesting. I think they kind of had a raw deal in general. Yeah.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah. But, and I agree that I think the family that they moved into definitely had really great presenting. However, there are question marks there because the kids did end up taking back their statements and saying that Molly told them to lie because if they didn't, then they we're going to get taken away and never see her.
Legal Outcomes and Appeals
00:43:06
Speaker
And, its in There is accusations that the aunt is the one that started putting that into their head that Molly told them that and that wasn't really what happened and but blah, blah, blah.
00:43:21
Speaker
We're never going to know, to be honest. We'll never know. But it it is an interesting kind of sprinkle of information that they did retract their statements, but in a very different environment over a Zoom call.
00:43:38
Speaker
It's interesting.
00:43:42
Speaker
Yeah, I do think it would probably would have been better if they were interviewed in person as opposed to a Zoom call because you just can't control their environment the same way in a Zoom. And you don't know what's happening on the other, like on the periphery of that call.
00:43:56
Speaker
um But I think... it comes down to who do you think coached the kids? Because in some sense they were coached regardless. And it was either that they were being coached by Molly or they were being coached by their relatives in Ireland.
00:44:14
Speaker
Because you can't really have – you can't have a situation where nobody was doing it um because they their story did change significantly. So it's like were you lying then? Are you lying now? Yeah.
00:44:26
Speaker
And for little kids, like, I don't blame them for any of this. And I think it's totally understandable that they were confused and ah all the adults around them gave them new perspectives and shaped their narrative. Oh, yeah. And whether they did it on purpose or not, i i could see i could see a world where unintentionally they were very, very manipulated.
00:44:50
Speaker
Yes. And also maybe intentionally. Yeah. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of both stories. Yeah. And the family in Ireland, they don't really know what was going on like that month and like two months before.
00:45:04
Speaker
They know what was going on prior and they know what they think Jason was capable of and what Molly was capable of and what kind of people that they were. But like we said before, you don't really know who people are behind closed doors. And when you live far away from family, it can be even easier to hide certain things.
00:45:26
Speaker
Exactly. um So they did go to court. Spoiler. um And again, they the kids' testimonies didn't get put in um And they were found guilty, which frankly didn't really surprise me.
00:45:48
Speaker
Me either. I did think they kind of got... a decently length sentence though i mean it was second degree murder which i guess i mean i guess it's an appropriate sentence for that but i just sometimes with a self-defense claim people get a lot less time but they were sentenced to 20 to 25 years and molly's fault father is old at the time so that's very significant especially for someone who is Late middle-aged.
00:46:18
Speaker
He would spend the rest of his life in jail. Yeah, 100%.
00:46:24
Speaker
And i think one factor that kind of came into play here is let's take the narrative that Jason did attack her They were defending to save her life, right?
00:46:38
Speaker
In the state of North Carolina, the minute that the threat is no longer imminent, you are supposed to stop the violence. And in it is very apparent that that did not happen.
00:46:50
Speaker
their The threat was no longer imminent and the violence continued. There also was evidence that at some point the door was closed and there was extreme violence happening before Tom got there.
00:47:06
Speaker
So, again, we're never going truly know what happened and every aspect of it. But the the charge of what they got does not surprise me.
00:47:18
Speaker
i go back and forth on the length. um Yeah, I go back and forth on that one for the original.
00:47:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. um Pretty much right away, Molly and Thomas both appealed the sentence. um They were pretty shocked and horrified that they were convicted in the first place.
00:47:42
Speaker
And they ended up getting um their convictions overturned. which was absolutely devastating to the kids in Ireland.
00:47:53
Speaker
They were so upset at the news that Molly and Thomas were going to be released. They thought that cold-blooded murderers were out walking around. And so that was extremely difficult for them.
00:48:06
Speaker
And they were hell-bent on testifying at the next trial And really wanted them to get the book thrown at them and to get very serious prison time again.
00:48:21
Speaker
And instead, they ended up taking a pretty controversial plea deal. And they both pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter and got A lot shorter of sentences.
00:48:35
Speaker
have those written down somewhere. Yeah, I think it was 51 to 74 months plus time served. They served about three and a half years. So that's about seven or eight months plus or minus good behavior that they would have to go back to jail for. 51 to 74 months. Yes. And then, yeah. So they basically served seven more months and then they were out and free. Yeah.
00:48:58
Speaker
Yeah. And I think when it came to the plea deal, again, at this point, though, there was evidence that these other their attorneys were bringing in that when you put people on the stand and you have a jury, you never know what way or direction a jury is going to go.
00:49:17
Speaker
With at least with a plea deal the judge is making the determination, um not a group of people. And the attorneys had brought in the original conversation, interview with the kids.
00:49:32
Speaker
The attorneys had brought into question of his first wife's death, ah which we had talked, bringing it full circle, we actually talked about. um a key acu Accusations. Oh, goodness.
00:49:47
Speaker
ah that he may have been the cause of his first wife's death by strangulation and not an asthma attack. And we had evidence being that was going to be presented on there was a mark on her neck that's consistent with strangulation, urination and her pajamas, also consistent with losing consciousness from strangulation,
00:50:14
Speaker
So there was a lot of things that they couldn't control in this new trial. And i i think from a prosecutor standpoint, you'd rather get something and have a judge put determine that than the chance of these two people going to trial and then walking out scot-free.
00:50:39
Speaker
Yeah, because it's still technically a win. it's still They still pled guilty. And so even though they are out of prison now, they are still guilty. They are still convicted felons.
00:50:52
Speaker
And I guess that's still considered to be some type of justice.
Unresolved Family Disputes
00:50:58
Speaker
I mean, certainly for the Irish family and the Irish community in general, they saw this as a major miscarriage of justice and that The contention of that family is that the whole thing was staged, basically, and that Jason was killed in his sleep and that there was no self-defense involved. And then obviously the Martins claim that this was self-defense and...
00:51:26
Speaker
For the Corbett's, they don't really feel like Mag's death is relevant because it was just a tragic asthma attack. And of course, on the other side, they're saying that, oh, it it's quite a coincidence how this happened.
00:51:40
Speaker
And I'm not really sure what to think. I did find it actually pretty compelling when um Thomas Martin was saying that,
00:51:52
Speaker
Mags' father had said that he held Jason responsible for Mags' death. And then later on in the documentary, we see tons of evidence saying he never said that and that he actually put out a statement himself saying, I didn't say that and I don't feel that way.
00:52:12
Speaker
So it just felt like, is Molly the only one that lies here? Or does Thomas also lie? And was this? Well, his dad, he's also passed away. So we can't, do we know when that statement was put out? Because I was under the impression that he just wrote it and that's what they just had it. Not that it was like a public.
00:52:32
Speaker
So it wasn't. yeah I actually don't know. The.
00:52:40
Speaker
I don't know. You know what I mean? like it'd be very like He also has passed away. There's no one... We can't ask him what he thinks. We're going off of the family saying this quote statement that he had.
00:52:55
Speaker
i don't i don't know when he passed away.
00:52:59
Speaker
This said that her father went to a solicitor, a lawyer, and said that... I'm pretty sure there was a like a written statement from the father saying that he did not say that, but I don't know when it was.
00:53:18
Speaker
I don't know. I'll have to look. Well, it's clearly ah disputed thing. Yes. Regardless. So it this says after Jason's murder, the dad of the first wife went to a solicitor in Ireland to state officially that his former son-in-law had absolutely nothing to do with the tragic death of Mags.
00:53:43
Speaker
Hmm. So...
00:53:48
Speaker
I mean, but just randomly, like, again, like ah consistently in this things just aren't adding up because the retrial that happened almost four years later when they brought that information up.
00:54:02
Speaker
I wonder if perhaps because there was interviews earlier on with Thomas where he was bringing that up. And I wonder if that information had gotten to the family in Ireland.
00:54:14
Speaker
And that's why he made that statement. That could be it. Yeah.
00:54:21
Speaker
That's what I think. um But regard i mean regardless, there's a lot of disputes right about what actually happened, what actually we think. And another problem is Mag's autopsies.
00:54:34
Speaker
Mag's autopsy can be apparently interpreted multiple ways, and it is not super clear what her cause of death is just from that autopsy alone. And it's possible that she had some sort of cardiac event. It's possible that she had an asthma attack. It's possible that there was some some other cause of death and none of them are conclusive.
00:54:58
Speaker
So, yeah, we won't really know, unfortunately. But I think that to really talk about what we think happened, it's like we have to kind of suspend some of our thinking. Like if Mags, let's say, for i don't know, but if she had been murdered by Jason, does that change what we think happened with molly and thomas well i guess actually maybe i should ask you what do you think happened think that's a loaded question i know and i will and we will mention once again the judge at the end said we basically will never know what happened so there's really no wrong answer
00:55:43
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think they were both toxic, to be honest.
Speculations and Theories on Jason's Death
00:55:48
Speaker
I think both of them presented outly that they...
00:55:56
Speaker
Well, like sparkly, happy people. But i think it over time, Molly just wasn't able to hide it all the time. um Because like one thing that reason to support that is there was this like peacock code word that the kids had with grandma.
00:56:16
Speaker
And like she hid their phone number around the house. If it was just Jason, why are you hiding it? I think it was both of them that there were issues with.
00:56:27
Speaker
And the word peacock wasn't told to Molly. It was told to just the kids. So i think there was toxicity on both sides and i I don't know what happened behind it. I think the violence was extreme 100% and overkill and unnecessary.
00:56:49
Speaker
But i i could see how it started mutual and then took a turn. But I don't know. If you ask me again, i'd probably change my answer.
00:57:02
Speaker
What do you think? So I've also changed my mind a couple times throughout this. um But at the moment, I'm kind of between two theories. The first theory is that Molly staged this and that she picked a fight with Jason when she knew her dad was there.
00:57:23
Speaker
and had been gassing her dad up for weeks saying that you know oh jason's so terrible and he's gonna take the kids for me and he hits me and he does all of these things which maybe is true maybe is not true i don't know but i think that she planned to have a conflict with him that night and jumped it up a bunch of notches hoping that her dad would get involved and kill him in her defense and But I actually don't think that's the most likely. I think the most likely is that that they wanted to make it look like it was self-defense or that it was defense and that they did kill him while he was sleeping.
00:58:00
Speaker
Because his the extent of his injuries so and like the way that Sharon has described what's going on where she's just you know she just hears one scream.
00:58:11
Speaker
If someone was being bludgeoned to death... during a fight. It would be so loud and so crazy. There's no way the kids would sleep through that. And I think Jack would have a memory of what was going on.
00:58:23
Speaker
But if they started attacking him while he's laying in bed and they get some good head injuries right off the bat, it's not going to be that loud. There was also trace amounts of sedatives found in his bloodstream and it It could have been that he was slightly sedated, which also helped and also gave them the upper hand.
00:58:47
Speaker
And I think it's pretty suspicious that they were just, you know, happening to visit that day out of the blue.
00:58:56
Speaker
So i I think that's what I think happened.
Molly's Past and Manipulative Behavior
00:59:00
Speaker
Yeah, i I think there's so many versions of it. i think to support one of your theories, like Molly's ex-fiancee did publish a book before Jason died.
00:59:14
Speaker
Put that out there. um And his whole thing was talking about their terminal relationship and trauma from Molly and how she was like a pathological liar basically and he even talked to the detectives during the investigation and they told him that he wasn't needed because they had enough evidence um and i think that's an interesting kind of addition to kind of support your theory that she could be a lot smarter than people give her credit for her and that could have been planned if she like they they throw out a lot of oil throw around a lot of
00:59:56
Speaker
clinical terminologies which we've established in in my opinion get used too often and not correctly um but it if some of his accusations are true and some of the people who support him are true it would explain the the plan that if that is the case
01:00:20
Speaker
yeah no definitely
01:00:25
Speaker
But, yeah, I i don't know. i think if we asked me in another couple days, i probably would have a different opinion. So I'm on board with the we'll never know the answer answer. Yeah.
01:00:40
Speaker
I think that's it because I agree. I feel like at some points during this, I really thought that um Molly was a victim in the situation. So I think that I also could be – could see it from multiple perspectives. I think right now, though, that's my theory.
01:00:54
Speaker
But – Yeah. We'll never know. Yeah, exactly. And I think it, depending if more evidence comes out or more kids in another couple of years could be like, I'm no, I'm living on my own. I did reflection and therapy and I actually lied again. Like we just, time will tell.
Conclusion and Reflection on the Case
01:01:13
Speaker
Time will tell. i do think the only victims truly are the kids. Um, In my opinion, i think even Molly, if she was a quote victim, I think there she was also abusive and manipulative in certain ways. So I use the word victim loosely, but.
01:01:36
Speaker
Yeah. i I don't really know who the victim was in the situation. I think the kids, Jack and Sarah, who were kiddos really brave and really incredible. And I did love their aunt and uncle.
01:01:47
Speaker
um especially loved when the uncle was in the car and he was he was telling them to, you know, keep their their heads up and their shoulders straight and fuck those people.
01:02:00
Speaker
I was like, yeah, he's great. Aunt rubs with me the wrong way every once in a while. But uncle, I am on board. Like every time we talked, I'm like, yeah. like Yeah, I really liked him a lot. I agree. She she, depending what she talked about, rubbed me the wrong way, which is why I could see the accusations of coaching.
01:02:20
Speaker
ah That's the only reason I i don't know. I think she's she's great and she's really taking care of those kids and she's done an amazing job stepping into that role. um But I like him more.
01:02:33
Speaker
I like him more too. I do see why she would obviously want to be defending her brother. Oh, 100%. um i could I could see how that would really color the way that you act and your perspective on everything because I don't think that she intentionally manipulates the kids at all.
01:02:50
Speaker
I think maybe she's unintentionally manipulated them. But from her perspective, she's not manipulating them. And I think that maybe the uncle, because he is an in-law to Jason, I think maybe he can see things a little bit more clearly. There's a little bit more nuance.
01:03:05
Speaker
I still think that he thinks that, you know... Jason was the victim and Thomas and Molly are evil evil people which I go back and forth on but I think that he has just a little bit more distance from it than Tracy does yeah
01:03:24
Speaker
well all right so that was all I think that we had is there any final thoughts that you have
01:03:32
Speaker
think so. I feel like we touched on everything I wanted to touch on. I i really enjoyed the documentary and I found it to be a really interesting case. Thought the kids were super compelling. How about you? Anything final?
01:03:44
Speaker
No, I would recommend people to watch the documentary. I think they did a really great job. um And I'm glad that the kiddos are starting to try to accept that none of this was their fault and move on and build a life for themselves.
01:04:02
Speaker
So i I really hope the best for both of them. Yeah, I did feel so bad for them when they were, I felt, just blaming themselves um for them being released. Like, that's that's so much, that's such a burden to have on their shoulders, which is, it's very unfair. Yeah. It's not their fault at all, obviously. They're truly the only victims in this case.
01:04:30
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that's everything we have for this week. um And I look forward to next week talking about our next mother. Yeah, me too. I'll see you then. Until next time.
01:04:42
Speaker
Bye.