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Lori Vallow Sins of Our Mother
68 Plays2 days ago
This week on the Mothers of All Crime we are joined by a special guest to talk about a special criminal mom. Our lovely pal joined us as we recap and discuss Sins of Our Mother starring the notorious Lori Norene Cox Ryan Vallow Daybell has been known by many names. Some of these names she received from her five attempts at wedded bliss and a few more (like Doomsday Mom) were given by the media. Lori rose to infamy after 2 of her children were reported missing. That is just the tip of this iceberg covered in this docu series.
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Introduction to Lori Vallow Case
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome back to the Mothers of All Crime. This week we have a special guest. We have a fellow true crime enthusiast, our dear friend and Katie. She's a longtime listener, first time caller. Thrilled to have her here today as we talk about Lori Vallow and the Sins of Our Mother documentary series.
00:00:40
Speaker
How are we doing, guys? Welcome. Great. Thanks for having me, guys. So happy to have you. So happy to have you. um And happy to talk about Lori Vallow. We've been meaning to for forever. But I think all of us going to Arizona together kind of pushed us on this topic, which is fun.
00:01:00
Speaker
Kind of feels like almost like we know her. Yeah, I feel like there were a couple times when we were in Arizona, it got brought up from just random conversations as we drove through the state. And it's kind of fun to look at a case that is in the area that we're in.
00:01:18
Speaker
We've talked about some of New Jersey in the past. So it's kind of cool to like travel to a location that someone else's. And she's like, oh, she's alive and kicking, even up
Critique of Documentary's Perspective
00:01:28
Speaker
to new shenanigans. We'll get to in another time. But it's kind of fun to talk to someone who, again, is more current than some of the other people we've talked about.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. This docu-series is from 2022. And know about you guys, but I really enjoyed it Sins of Our Mother on Netflix.
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah, feel like great i watched it great. I watched it on the plane. And yeah, it was a great great documentary. perfect time to watch a series.
00:01:57
Speaker
Kills the time. they Yeah, it definitely took in a lot of different perspectives I thought was good. I do... My only complaint is to take it with a grain of salt because it only really involved her family members.
Impact of Family Dynamics
00:02:10
Speaker
it didn't take that many people from an outside perspective, which true can get a little tough sometimes because you're only hearing people who were emotionally involved, so not necessarily...
00:02:25
Speaker
peripheral friends or police or things like that we've seen with others. It was mainly her eldest son, her mother were the two, I would argue, like main focuses of the documentary series.
00:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point. I don't think any, we didn't get a lot of like impartial opinions about it, like kind of outside perspective. That being said, it was so interesting to hear the perspective of the eldest son and her mother. Yeah. um Yeah.
00:03:01
Speaker
Well, especially her mom, like, I feel like it's so interesting to see how parents kind of deal all with their child. Absolutely. And i I love like the incorporation of all the photos and the videos and body cam footage is always ah great way to kick something off.
00:03:19
Speaker
um Because it just feels like you're very involved, like because there aren't really experts in the documentary and it's all people who are genuinely emotionally impacted by these events.
00:03:30
Speaker
It is it's a different perspective. It's not an unbiased approach for sure.
Opening with Police Footage
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that's a good point. And like we start off the series with PD footage. They drop you right in, which as the series goes, kind of contextualizes it, I think, because it's a really good like catcher, right? he's It's interviewing her ex-husband with the police footage and really just the concern that he has about Lori and her potential for danger.
00:04:03
Speaker
Which, out of context, sounds like he's crazy, but then you slowly learn information through the documentary. I'm like, nah, he was on the ball. like Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:15
Speaker
And maybe that's why they did it like that. Because you almost get the same experience of being like that police officer. Exactly. Yeah, crazy guy. And you're like, oh, he's a crazy guy. But yeah, you're right. The series goes on.
00:04:29
Speaker
You realize that.
Lori's Background and Marriages
00:04:31
Speaker
ah especially because probably the most sane one that was 100 100 definitely and this is this is one of her husband laurie's fourth husband uh charles who i only knew who he was like i followed the case when it was happening so when the documentary started i knew who it was but they don't explain who it is you'd they just open it up with this, this man who's out of his mind talking to the police saying that his wife is crazy.
00:05:01
Speaker
She thinks he's a zombie. Like, you know, she's going to murder me. She's lost her mind. Like in the beginning of the, he doesn't know where his kids are. And it is a great way to open it. Definitely gets you interested to watch the rest of it.
00:05:14
Speaker
um And then I guess we, you know, we reference a couple of the things of, Lori's kids because like I said she's been married a few times um five now but four at that time and she has three different kids from different situations um so the first husband we don't really know anything about right they didn't even mention him in the documentary to be honest which I thought was weird I had to google it because i was like I could have swore there was another one mm-hmm
00:05:48
Speaker
yeah but i think it was very brief like she got married soon after graduating from high school and it was very quick yeah her first husband she was married 92 her second husband she was married in 95 so not exactly long-lived yeah and do we do we know if she was in the lds church for all these marriages that something new That is a good question. i think to my understanding, she's always been LDS, but it would be really interesting to know if she was sealed to any of them because the unsealing process in the LDS church is really like, to my understanding, a high bar for them to unseal you.
00:06:30
Speaker
I wonder, I wonder if she got sealed to the first one and then, or or any of them. Oh, that's an, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that is that is really interesting. um I don't know, because I feel like her family had a lot of references to to God and to praying and things like that, but they weren't specifying.
00:06:57
Speaker
They were saying stuff about Jesus, but they weren't specifying what type of Christianity, like the rest of the family practices. And I believe Charles converted. her fourth husband, converted to be LDS because he was marrying Lori.
00:07:10
Speaker
i don't know what she grew up... wonder if I could find that out quickly. Because that is really interesting. hadn't thought about that. I think her family was raised LDS because i vaguely remember her mother talking about that she was just the most committed to the church.
00:07:31
Speaker
that That could very well be. by it Regardless, in any sect of Christianity, it's not going to be looked at as a good thing that you're having all of these divorces. i guess you could say she wasn't living in sin, wasn't necessarily being promiscuous, but she was getting married and divorced a lot, which I'm sure was tough in the church.
Transformation Through Religion
00:07:56
Speaker
So she probably bounced around. She also lived in a lot of different places.
00:08:01
Speaker
So I wonder if LDS was available everywhere. Yeah, I did just do like a quick Google search and it says that she was raised Mormon. Okay. Raised in a Mormon household.
00:08:13
Speaker
Which I wonder if that, i do feel like that probably did kind of like shape her susceptibility being kind of indoctrinated by Mm-hmm.
00:08:31
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Because you mean the LDS is its own animal and controversial of calling it a cult or not, depending on your experience. And i think with her being the most committed, you're taking these doctrines so seriously, which opens you up to...
00:08:52
Speaker
she Chad, who kind of presented himself as this superior spiritual person, if your goal is to be the best version of yourself on earth, why wouldn't you want to follow the person that has the key, right? Like i i could see the trail for her.
00:09:12
Speaker
Guys, I just looked down on my notes, two lines, and it says Lori grew up LDS. So I guess this information was at my fingertips, but I did not.
00:09:23
Speaker
They obviously said it in the documentary.
00:09:28
Speaker
Okay. So confirmed. Confirmed. um And then she had two siblings. She had one she was a middle child. So she had an older brother and younger brother. she and we're going to again, see that commitment of like where they drift off to, which I thought was interesting.
00:09:44
Speaker
So I believe both of her brothers are actually older, Lori and Alex and Adam. That's what I have written anyway, possibly not. And then she has a youngest sister, Summer.
00:09:57
Speaker
Hmm. I have written one older. We're going Google. Thank you, Google. Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:06
Speaker
Um, regardless, she has two brothers, Alex and Adam, who are mentioned heavily throughout the documentary. And Summer is barely mentioned.
00:10:19
Speaker
I don't think she's that involved with all this. Um, lucky for her. well yeah, for real. I would not be in this either. And her mom looks, if you have context, her mom looks not great in the beginning of the documentary.
00:10:33
Speaker
um But Colby is Lori's first child, and he is a product of her second marriage, which was also pretty short-lived, and Colby's biological father not in the picture.
00:10:47
Speaker
And then Lori remarried again to Joe Ryan and had Tylee and Joe also adopted Colby. So that's important, like, contacts information.
00:11:02
Speaker
and That's when she started doing the beauty pageants, which I thought was such an interesting portion of this. She was like obsessed with how she looked and the beauty pageants and having the perfect life.
00:11:14
Speaker
I just feel like that was, that was something I learned from the docuseries. I don't think I knew that.
00:11:21
Speaker
Yeah, that was interesting. It kind of goes back to like talking about like her siblings and then this her like kind of obsession with her image. Mm-hmm.
00:11:32
Speaker
I've always kind of wondered or thought it was interesting to think about how when you are part of a big family or when someone's part of a big family, what makes one of the children like turn out so differently?
00:11:47
Speaker
And in this case, turn out to be somebody like so dangerous because arguably they're all raised really similarly. i think for Lori, it's probably like a combination of possibly her involvement and her family involvement in the church, but also I know she had some really toxic relationships.
00:12:06
Speaker
Like I think some of her relationships with her previous husbands were pretty toxic and there was some abuse. Yeah. And she probably was always just like kind of praised for her beauty, you know, this is probably just her thinking that was important.
00:12:20
Speaker
And she was, I mean, and she was, she was beautiful. And I think that helped her get away with a lot. Absolutely. I mean, very blonde, very tan, very beautiful.
00:12:31
Speaker
Um, and she did well in beauty pageants. And i think she probably got a lot of praise and a lot of validation from that. And it is interesting because get, you know, she's one of four siblings and you could say that all of these kids turned out extremely different from each other, just based on what we know from the series.
00:12:51
Speaker
um So i they have the all the same parents, but I guess they've all been shaped in different ways. And it's that, you know, that combination of nature and nurture. They have essentially all of it because they have the same biological parents. They grew up in the same home.
00:13:08
Speaker
But. we're all we're shaped by our outside experiences too. And the way that your parents treat each each individual sibling is not necessarily going to be even. And it's, you can't treat every kid the same. It's not even possible or realistic.
00:13:23
Speaker
So I'm sure there was ways that they were all not getting their needs met and all getting their needs met. And the church also has a big impact on the way that you grow up and your social group and what your friends believe in. it shapes you in a lot of ways.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, totally agree. Yeah. um And then the Wheel of Fortune thing, God told her she was going to win a lot of money. and i thought that was wild.
00:13:53
Speaker
I think it was 17K that she won. that's That's awesome.
00:14:02
Speaker
and Hey, at least God was right about something. Yeah, absolutely. This is when she could still hear him.
00:14:09
Speaker
in the day. Because now seems... not hear him anymore? Yeah, I feel like now it's a bit shaky, her connection. no Well, i just i do think she's
Influence of Chad Daybell
00:14:18
Speaker
saying that God is telling her that she's going get out of prison.
00:14:22
Speaker
Yes. He still must talk sometimes to her. Sure. and And maybe she will. Maybe the rapture is coming. We'll get... We'll see. We'll we'll talk about it at the end if we think that the rapture is coming or not. We can vote.
00:14:36
Speaker
Yeah. And then ah then they start talking about how Joe was abusive to Colby and Lori. and they start talking about the sexual abuse of Colby.
00:14:49
Speaker
Which was her third husband that Katie mentioned the abuse with. Yeah. And he adopted Colby, which is extra devastating. And he's obviously Tylee's father. And they had a I mean, Laurie reported the abuse and ended up getting divorced and had a bitter custody battle with Joe.
00:15:15
Speaker
Eventually got primary custody of Tylee. um But it was a terrible situation and Colby is talking about it in the docuseries and obviously seems very affected by it still.
00:15:30
Speaker
This is one thing, and I'm not going to do this very often, but I got to give Lori credit for, and I do have to respect her for, because there are particularly people who are strongly religious, don't always remove themselves and their children from those situations, because um they go to their church for guidance or tough it out or don't believe the child. Like, Lori was very proactive.
00:15:59
Speaker
She was like, nope, I'm going to remove me. and The minute it started happening, at least I took it as the minute she found out it was happening to her son, not necessarily her, but her son, it was, okay, we're done.
00:16:12
Speaker
And she it It was presented that she very much was like, I'm not going to allow that to happen with my knowledge. And I do have to give her credit there that I was very impressed with the execution of that.
00:16:30
Speaker
And it then kind of made sense where she started saying, like, this brought me closer to the temple because if I if it i didn't go this direction, i think the quote was... it turned me to the temple or I'm going to commit murder or something like that.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah. Which I feel in my soul. Like if I sure ever felt that about my kid, I can't say that I would turn to a temple. So like the fact that she handled it the way she did, i do have to give her credit for that. I thought that was, ah was very proud.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah. That's a great point. And, but also I feel like it makes you wonder how does Lori go from,
00:17:10
Speaker
caring so much about her kids, like being able to extract them from that terrible situation, give them a better life to then transforming into somebody who's capable of, you know, killing her kids.
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah. I think that makes, it kind of just makes a her transformation that much more shocking. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I feel like we got to kind of ride that with Colby through the series, because at this point, he's really talking about how she advocated for him and took care of him and protected him.
00:17:44
Speaker
And it's it speaks well of her mothering at that time. yeah And they did say in her early days, like she was a really good mom. And I think that's why people pushed back so hard when allegations started coming out is because she was that present mom. She was the protective mom. She made all these strives to her children came first.
00:18:08
Speaker
And even with like her marriage to Charles, There was that question of like, I think she liked him, possibly loved him, but it was more for the financial security, what he could do for her and her kids. Like it wasn't necessarily i found this man and I fell in love with him.
00:18:27
Speaker
It was kind of convenience and then I happened to also develop feelings. Yeah. Do you guys have any theories about like kind of what led to Lori's like like transformation? Do you think it was like mostly just like mental illness, kind of toxic combination of her and Chad's personalities or just curious to know if you guys have any thoughts?
00:18:59
Speaker
I mean, I got tons of thoughts. I always, always think a lot, but I think that You know, initially when she was with Charles, it seems like she was in the church, but it wasn't her entire identity.
00:19:16
Speaker
they like They lived in Hawaii. It seems like things were going pretty well. They had a pretty normal married life situation. is when they adopted JJ. And by all accounts, it seems like she was...
00:19:31
Speaker
happily married, mom-involved, like, normal person. And then i think it's when she started listening Chad's podcasts and reading his books and getting really involved in, like, the prepper movements and stuff.
00:19:50
Speaker
I think that's why she became under this spell, essentially, why it became so extreme.
00:19:58
Speaker
i oh also think that she... again, was looking for a superior person. Because she was so invested in the church and being the best member that she could be, even though Charles converted for her, i don't think she ever saw him as the equal.
00:20:18
Speaker
And she wanted someone who could lead her spiritually. ah Because, again, in the Mormon church, of' looking at there is still that gender division. There is still the man holds the priesthood and leads women into the Holy Kingdom.
00:20:34
Speaker
So i wondering if the door was open for the manipulation by Chad was that he was claiming to be that spiritual person.
00:20:45
Speaker
person for her who could bring her into the afterlife, bring her to fund their planet or whatever version you want.
00:20:57
Speaker
um I think as she was looking for that, that opened that. And then plus the charismatic personality he had opened the... manipulation.
00:21:08
Speaker
i When it comes to mental illness, I think it's definitely him who has more of the mental illness. I think she was just susceptible to it. And I think it just, the brainwashing started. do you have a theory?
00:21:21
Speaker
i mean, you guys are pretty much echoing a lot of when i what I think. um Just to add on to what you said, Crystal. Yeah, I think you're right. I think she was looking for somebody to lead her spiritually. But I also think that she probably got a lot of validation too from Chad for like recognizing her as being like this amazing spiritual person, but at the same time being like, Oh, well, like you're exceptional, but you follow me and I'll like, you know, take the rest of the way basically.
00:21:57
Speaker
Um,
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah, those are all those are all good points. I agree. Well, I think that she kind bored with her life and lonely. And I think, you know, when Colby's talking about how Laurie seemed to be jealous of his wife and wasn't... Like, might I add, ew. Yeah.
00:22:20
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Which... I don't, I mean, I don't know, obviously, if there was any real points of contention, but it seems like Lori was kind of the mother-in-law from hell and she wasn't accepting. She wasn't warm. She acted jealous. She didn't even bring Tylee to the wedding. Like it just, she did a lot of weird things and she, that to me speaks of somebody who is immature and somebody who has a lot of dependencies on her kids.
00:22:52
Speaker
And maybe, you know, JJ's in school full time. She's bored of Charles. She doesn't work. Maybe she just needed something to make her feel really special. She's getting too old to do the pageants.
00:23:07
Speaker
So I think like Katie, you make a good point that she was susceptible to it because he made her feel really special. And I think she thought it was special to like have spiritual gifts.
00:23:18
Speaker
So she sort of manifested, hallucinated, whatever you want to say, some sort of spiritual psychosis. But i also kind of agree. I think Chad's the more, although I kind of go back and forth on it because you could kind of look at it either way.
00:23:34
Speaker
Part of me thinks Chad is faking it and that he is not actually believe any of this stuff.
00:23:42
Speaker
I don't think he needs to necessarily believe it to orchestrate. Like, she did. i think she believed it 100%. I think that's how she got brought in. i don't necessarily think he did, but I do think she does.
00:23:54
Speaker
Because even before Chad existed, makes she had God speaking to her. who she's the reason God's the reason they moved to Hawaii. He told her in a loud voice, move Hawaii. Yeah. so like there were but god told her to go on wheel of fortune like these were things that were already in her life before chad i think he just found that and then was like this is how i manipulate personally
00:24:23
Speaker
but does that make him crazier or more sane Well, I think we need to give a little background on Chad since we're talking about him. Like, he also had started things prior to meeting Lori. It wasn't like he met Lori in a crowded room and they decided to have this crazy religious rendezvous.
00:24:45
Speaker
like ah Like, they met at a religious conference and she knew of him through, i think, the podcast, if I remember. Yeah, portraying a people. Yeah.
00:24:56
Speaker
Yeah. So like he also was already in this religious space and claiming to be in a superior spiritual position than the majority. That's true. He was kind of like and he was kind of he was putting it out there and like seeing if he could get followers, I think.
00:25:20
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think. i to take to be I think you nailed it. I think his goal was to build a bigger group and nobody else fell for it.
00:25:32
Speaker
That's funny. Also, one thing I wanted to say that kind of relates to what you said, Monica, about her being bored with her life. I also got that sense.
00:25:43
Speaker
Yeah. And I know that like, the main kind of story as to why she killed her kids was because they were zombies, right? And that's what she believed.
00:25:55
Speaker
But there's also part of me that thinks that she was just like bored of being mom. Like I think she just wanted to go off and like live this life with Charles and like travel and live in Hawaii and be the spiritual leader with him.
00:26:13
Speaker
and it kind of reminds me of like this TikTok I saw it's really silly it was like a woman and like a Judge Judy type thing and she had like she had two kids and she's just like yeah I just decided that I don't want to have kids and the judge is like this it doesn't work like that you already have kids anyway that's just like that's just my own kind of theory I I do think she kind of thought the kids were dragging her down.
00:26:42
Speaker
Honestly. Also, i think Chad speaking about the rapture so much, if she believed it, which I go back and forth as well, if I think Lori truly believes it.
00:26:54
Speaker
To me, I think Lori believes it more than I think Chad believes it, but I think they both believe it to some extent because otherwise they just could not continue to breathe and live.
00:27:04
Speaker
um But I think that the rapture coming and that the the planets the planet's going to explode whatever's going to happen the world's going to end i think that she was just able to kind of abandon her responsibilities because what does it matter if the world's going to end yeah Yeah, which brings back that 1,044, 144,000, I think is the number. Yeah, it's 144,000. Yeah, which you see in a couple of different groups of who's the end of times. And that's kind of where he had his ranking system, right? Because he developed his own system.
00:27:48
Speaker
I think, was it one through
Charles's Warnings and Isolation
00:27:49
Speaker
five? Where wrote it you are a light or a dark, so a good or a bad. And then, like, there was a rank of that, how far you are from the middle.
00:28:00
Speaker
And Chad, being this all-knowing being, just knew what people's numbers and codes were. and I think because you see that in a couple of people and they did have one person in the documentary who was it it kind of made me giggle because she is someone who also ranks people.
00:28:24
Speaker
But didn't murder anybody. so they like presented her as this like authority in a way where she's like, well, I know this because I talk for the light. But like if you ask Chad, he's also going to tell you that.
00:28:37
Speaker
So to me, the only difference is the fact you didn't kill people. That's the only reason why you have an authority position on this. Yeah, because basically it's not a problem for you to have these wacky beliefs unless you're going to hurt somebody.
00:28:53
Speaker
And then now it's a problem.
00:28:57
Speaker
Otherwise, just you think whatever you want.
00:29:01
Speaker
And she also thinks that Chad's system was not correct because he would do it from, um from 6L to 6D. That's what it was.
00:29:12
Speaker
So you could either be a little bit light and be around a 2L, or you could be more of a little bit dark. You know what i mean? You could it's a sliding scale.
00:29:24
Speaker
It's like the D&D chaotic evil and chaotic good ridiculousness. Yeah, it's a lot like that. It was always like coincidentally the people who were giving them a hard time and people they didn't like. They were always the dark spheres. Right.
00:29:40
Speaker
Anybody that annoyed them clearly was a dark. Yeah. Well, he, you know, he borrowed a little bit from here and a little bit from there.
00:29:52
Speaker
From the Book of Mormon, from the Bible, from his own near-death experiences, quotes himself a lot. the He does quote himself a lot.
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah. And... Well, he would quote himself also from his past lives, which he liked to bring up a lot. And even he told Lori that they were married in multiple times throughout their past lives.
00:30:17
Speaker
They showed some text chains in the documentary, which I always love. um But they're just they feel icky. Like very obsessive, very, again, they're both married at the time too, to other people.
00:30:33
Speaker
And they're having these very inappropriate conversations about past marriages and commitment and ranking systems. And that starts leading into ranking relationships.
00:30:44
Speaker
People in their family, their friends, their children. Now everybody are around. Of course, they have sixes. They're six. ls They're the best of the best. But nobody else is even close.
00:31:01
Speaker
Mm Yeah, definitely. And this is when Laurie starts to think that Charles is actually dead and that he is possessed by a demon named Ned Schneider, which is the most insane name a zombie.
00:31:21
Speaker
thought that was so bizarre. Yeah. yeah And so Laurie starts, obviously what you do in that situation is you start telling everybody that Charles is cheating So she's telling everybody that'll listen that Charles has been cheating and Colby ends up confronting him and Charles denies this.
00:31:42
Speaker
And this is when Charles starts raising concerns about And he goes away. And for a business trip, Laurie cancels his return flight.
00:31:55
Speaker
She moved his car. She moved all of his stuff out. Took all of the money out of their bank accounts. And then this is when we get back to that body cam footage in the beginning where Charles is flipping out.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah. And honestly, it's kind of, and on Laurie's end, it's actually really smart. Because... yeah everything that Charles is saying is true, but it just sounds so crazy and because she is crazy.
00:32:25
Speaker
And like this whole story that Lori has, which is all made up of him cheating just seems so much more plausible, you know? So I think that's why she had such an easy time convincing her family and the police.
00:32:39
Speaker
Um, Yeah, definitely. i mean And it's like a PR. yeah Whose story sounds more believable? Yeah, but also like get ahead of it.
00:32:50
Speaker
The first story you hear, if you want to or not, it's going to be the one that's in the back of your head. So now, no matter who you hear a second, they're playing defense. If you mean it to or not, they're most likely playing defense.
00:33:02
Speaker
And Lori had that interview. They brought Lori in after he made these claims on the police. And she talked way out of it. Like, very charismatic, very calm, very, like, gained a little bit of, i don't want to say friendship because it's not the word I want, but, like, camaraderie maybe with the officer. Like, it became very casual and you could tell it after a little while he was like, yeah, this a waste my time.
00:33:31
Speaker
when it should have been more. Sure, but she seems very calm and she seems like very reasonable about what she's saying. And how many times have you heard that someone has a crazy ex, but really the person saying they were crazy was just cheating on them the whole time. And that's why they were being so crazy.
00:33:51
Speaker
i feel like that happens all the time. Whereas you saying that your wife thinks she's a god that doesn't sound like something that would actually happen. So for the police, it's like, what's more reasonable?
00:34:04
Speaker
She seems fine. She doesn't seem like someone having a spiritual psychosis, thinks she's a god. She's not saying anything about that while she's in there. She's behaving very normally. Well, she was also evaluated, and they didn't find anything.
00:34:21
Speaker
Yeah. she said They said she was not a danger. She was not committed. And she was... for you to go. Yeah, I wonder, I feel like she was able to talk herself out of that situation with the police so easily. And like you said, she was so calm.
00:34:41
Speaker
You almost wonder if that like gave her some confidence that she would be able to get away with like killing the people that she eventually did.
00:34:53
Speaker
Because when she was questioned, by the police after Charles died and even after her kids went missing she kind of acted the same exact way she was like very she's very calm she was charismatic until it got a little bit more serious and then she kind of just stopped talking but that was something that really kind of stood out to me is I feel like Lori was pretty like she was pretty smart up until she killed her victims and then it seems like she had no real plan other than was gonna sweet talk the way out of it which seems pretty dumb to me well also the rapture that's i didn't consider that i maybe she was really banking on the rapture i honestly i think that's like kind of the whole problem i think that's what she was really
00:35:45
Speaker
really betting on. And i think that she just didn't want to suffer up until the rapture, if that was avoidable. um But yeah, I don't think she thought she was going to have any consequences from any of this.
00:35:59
Speaker
And I agree with you that she gained confidence through this experience because she basically evicted Charles from his own life. and really didn't have any consequences of that and then charles is still trying to get somebody to help him he's emailing family the kids everybody's like oh we don't really want to get involved in your marriage problems you know laurie said you were cheating basically everyone's like yeah deal with your own problems
00:36:29
Speaker
And that's when he um finds those emails that Lori sent to Chad from Charles. pretending to have set up an arrangement for them to meet which i thought was also pretty crafty makes me think she's not psychotic ah because yeah it's methodical i also think she in all the previous things kind of what katie was talking about she also i think knew that technically she hasn't done anything illegal yet
00:37:00
Speaker
So what like what are you going to do? Arrest her for removing her, kicking her husband out of the house? Not illegal. Taking the children? Not illegal. Like, I think she also knew in the back her head that she was doing some messed up stuff and definitely playing chess.
00:37:15
Speaker
But at this point, she hadn't done anything illegal yet.
00:37:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, i I thought about that a lot, actually. So... So from Colby's perspective, like Charles was coming to him and being like, your mom is crazy. She's a danger to herself and others.
00:37:40
Speaker
Of course, Lori was saying that, oh, don't listen to him. He's just mad because I thought I'm cheating. But I feel like Charles was really persistent. I like to think that if I were in Colby's shoes, I would have taken in Charles a little bit more seriously.
00:37:57
Speaker
But I don't know that I would have. It's like such a tricky situation. Well, one thing I will say i found very unrelatable is a little bit later on the documentary, Colby's wife said that they did not even read all of the emails that Charles sent about Laurie being crazy and all. Like, I would have read everything for sure.
00:38:18
Speaker
And I would have asked follow-up questions. I wouldn't have just not read it because this has got to be... I mean, I know they just had a baby and they were busy with their own lives, but your stepdad, who you consider, like, father figure, is saying that your mom is psychotic.
00:38:36
Speaker
Yeah. And you're not going to read the emails? I wonder, though... That's true. forgot about that relationship. Like, they did have a super close relationship. Yeah. And also, you would think, like,
00:38:48
Speaker
but So maybe he maybe he is like annoyed with Charles and he's on his mom's side, but wouldn't you at least be concerned enough to be involved if you thought your mom and your siblings were living with this guy who was accusing you of being like totally crazy? Because that's not a safe, pleasant situation for his mom.
00:39:10
Speaker
That's true too. And so i feel like either way that he was looking at it, probably should have taken it more seriously. Giving him... critical of them on his shoes but i just I don't know.
00:39:22
Speaker
I think giving him a little bit of the debt benefit of the doubt though, like coming listening to a lot of the wife, his so... can't remember her name. um Colby's wife.
00:39:34
Speaker
Insert name here. Kelsey. Thank you. I think she... may have been a little bit more to the be related to why he didn't read them it kind of came across that there was some kind of conversation of it's me or your mother because there was a lot of toxic behavior the mom was expressing towards their relationship and i have i got a wonder of particularly after the baby was born, it was, i need you present. And did you stop worrying about your mom? She's doing this to get your attention for another, because the last thing
Family Dynamics and Charles's Death
00:40:08
Speaker
didn't work. Like I'm wondering if there was also that dynamic of it's one more thing your mom's trying to do to like pull you and get, keep your attention away from me and your family.
00:40:20
Speaker
Like it feels very, tough like I think he was in a really hard circumstance so if your wife is sitting at home being like stop engaging stop reading them i could see how that would be easily i mean the emails will be there I'll read them another time like you know that's the thing such a good point yeah And maybe there was always a new drama with Laurie, with Charles, with their whole dynamic. They make it seem like everything was just hunky-dory till this point. But I wonder if maybe, i bet Laurie has always had a flair for the dramatic.
00:40:59
Speaker
And I wouldn't be surprised if there was always something up with her, always some new problem. And so maybe it was just a lot and they just couldn't deal with it.
00:41:11
Speaker
But charles I mean, Charles was extremely persistent and I, I don't know what else really done. I feel like he exhausted all his options.
00:41:24
Speaker
He emailed Tammy, Chad's wife. And he also was emailing Lori's brothers, Adam and Alex. Adam was helping Charles and tried to fly in to arrange a family intervention where Alex was, i guess, team Lori.
00:41:44
Speaker
Yeah. so Well, keep in mind, Alex also was the more religious one. He was the one that was on board with the Doomsday. He was on board with Chad's ranking system. He definitely was the one that him and Lori kind of had those mindsets that were a little more similar.
00:42:03
Speaker
it came across, we don't know a lot about Adam's background, but definitely more separated from the church. So I think he was the one that Charles kind of went to was like hey you seem to be the rational one here help me like yeah I feel like it was kind of manipulative on um what was the brother's name Adam yeah on his part because I I got the sense that Charles went to Adam for help and Adam was like yeah I'm gonna help you
00:42:38
Speaker
but while he was saying, yeah, I'm going to help you to Charles, he actually, like you said, Crystal Team Laurie. Did you guys get that impression too? I don't think so. There's two different brothers though. Yeah, there's Adam and Alex.
00:42:53
Speaker
Oh, I'm sorry, Alex. Yes. Oh, yeah. Initially, Alex was acting like he was to be on Charles' side and help, but i mean, we we have the benefit of seeing how it plays out.
00:43:06
Speaker
And yeah, I do agree with that.
00:43:10
Speaker
No, I think, yeah, he he tried every avenue. and he i don't think he realized how intertwined Alex was at that point when he first reached out, too. Yeah, probably not.
00:43:23
Speaker
Yeah, he' like you said, he was probably just trying to exhaust all his options. Yeah, definitely. And Adam was willing to help, but unfortunately, um Charles is...
00:43:39
Speaker
shot by Alex in and allegedly a self-defense situation. I'm I'm a little unclear kind of as to the, what no way actually happened here. It doesn't make sense.
00:43:54
Speaker
Also, i feel like there's a variation of different stories about who was actually present at the time of this incident and who left the scene immediately afterwards. Um, what did you guys think of the scenario?
00:44:08
Speaker
Classic self-defense. Oh, yeah. They just, they wanted to kill him and they did. That's what I think happened. Totally. And they tried to make it look like self-defense.
00:44:20
Speaker
Well, he said Charles came at him with a bat. Or no, no, no. Charles was attacking him and Tylee came at him with a bat. I was a little unclear about who had the bat.
00:44:31
Speaker
Yeah, they did say Tylee was involved somehow. Well, she came involved later. So that was one of the reasons Petey started kind of looking into it a little more because out Alex's version and Lori's version didn't match up.
00:44:47
Speaker
And then Tylee's now present. So there it kept morphing and their stories weren't consistent. And I think that's when Pilly started being like, hold on.
00:44:58
Speaker
And then looking at the scene a little deeper than just taking your word for it. um the end story to my understanding and I could be wrong this is just from what I took because like you said it was kind of confusing um the Alex and Charles were arguing verbally and The original story said he had a bat, but then Tylee said she had the bat, came out because she didn't want them arguing.
00:45:33
Speaker
Charles and Alex got physical with each other. Alex went upstairs or went to another room, got a gun, came back and shot him.
00:45:45
Speaker
Right. right but Lori, and this is where I'm unclear, came, got the children, and then left. Was Lori there the whole time? Did she come pick up the kids? That's the part I never could figure out.
00:46:01
Speaker
Because the kids were present. They were present. um And then they left to go to Walgreens, Burger King, and she took JJ to school?
00:46:13
Speaker
after his father just got shot. Yeah, that's, I feel like the reason that I really feel like there's foul play here is because of how they handled it afterwards.
00:46:25
Speaker
Like you said, Monica, like she just went about her business after. And also the way that she broke the news of Charles Charles's death to his children was so wildly inappropriate.
00:46:42
Speaker
So she sent them a group text, didn't even call, and then left them on read. They obviously were all responding, calling her, calling her, and then she just left them on read, basically, for hours, not responding.
00:46:59
Speaker
I actually wrote down the text. Can I just read it real quick? This is how Lori tells Charles's four sons... Hi boys. i have very sad news.
00:47:10
Speaker
Your father passed away yesterday. I'm making arrangements and I'll keep you informed with what's going on. I'm still not sure how to handle things. Just know that I love you and so did your dad.
00:47:20
Speaker
Two exclamation points.
00:47:24
Speaker
You don't love me if you're sending a text. yeah A text. And then to go radio silent is crazy. Crazy. And we see the son start texting back. They're blowing up her phone. She's just totally ignoring them.
00:47:42
Speaker
And also 24 hours later, like, well granted, listen, everyone needs a moment. Assuming she's innocent, which she's not. But like, even if you need to take a second, you need to inform their, like your children. That's not something you like wait a while to tell someone.
00:48:01
Speaker
That's crazy. hmm. Yeah, it's definitely not something you drop on someone in a text and then don't. Yeah, right. No context. And she told some people he had a heart attack.
00:48:15
Speaker
She told JJ's school that he killed himself. Like there's all these different stories just floating about. Again, I think why PD was like, all right, now we're lying about what happened. Another red flag.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's not something, that's not a way an innocent person would handle that situation. Yeah, definitely not. And she called the life insurance real quick, too, which is also kind of suspicious. I feel like that's come up several times in other cases and certainly a big deal in this case, life insurance.
00:48:49
Speaker
But she called and she was no longer Charles's benefactor on his insurance. So she didn't get that for him. I'm glad he did that.
00:49:01
Speaker
He knew that she was nuts. So he put his sister, who was JJ's grandmother, in charge of his life insurance and made her the beneficiaries of everything.
00:49:11
Speaker
But Lori was still entitled to Charles's Social Security. So she said she would get four k a month for that. Which is still a decent amount. But I think that just shows how real, he how much he knew that she was real about what she was saying. It wasn't like yeah in the heat of the moment you say, I hate you, i'm going to kill
Suspicious Deaths: Alex and Tammy
00:49:33
Speaker
you. Like I think it finally set in at some point because obviously he changed it At some point it sunk in and like, oh, she's she's serious.
00:49:44
Speaker
And he made preparations because he knew it was a matter of when not a matter of if which is a really really unfortunate realization you have to have yeah the only thing i think he maybe could have done better was just like ran like just gotten as far away from her as possible but you know hindsight's 20 20 Right. And like you have the kids and but again divorce is an option.
00:50:14
Speaker
Divorce and run. Like I completely see you' that point. 100%. Yeah. I think he was worried about JJ. um And he was trying like he was asking if he could just have him when the whole incident with Alex happened.
00:50:30
Speaker
Obviously you know in hindsight it would be it would be would have been way better four Lori to just give Charles JJ but that clearly wasn't an option and Charles did have about a million dollars in life insurance and I think that that was a big factor in why divorce wasn't an option in this case yeah I totally agree so I think we're all kind of on the same page about Charles was she convicted for Charles um I think recently she was she was okay what's your
00:51:08
Speaker
think happened with uh with alex so with with the thing with charles or with alex in general so alex died right yeah so It was, there was an autopsy and this, this is after he marries Zulema, who's like a friend of Lori's from their cult.
00:51:33
Speaker
Um, and he apparently had a blood clot. That's what, that's what I've been able to find. And apparently he had issues with his blood pressure, had hypertension, and they had a history of similar issues in the family.
00:51:47
Speaker
um, um So that's like believable. But I read several different things that said that he had pink foam coming out of his mouth after he was found.
00:52:00
Speaker
And that is also what happened with Tammy, Chad's wife. So makes me think ah that's probably not a coincidence.
00:52:11
Speaker
The timing of it is just so suspicious. I think, I think you're right with the timing is suspicious, but also it's the proximity, right? So you have so many people that are connected to this couple that are popping up dead either or attempting to be killed either by suspicious behavior or an accident or whatever the case is.
00:52:40
Speaker
yeah, It just it feels very easy that all of a sudden the person who shot your brother, ah yeah your ex-husband, excuse me the person that can prove if you are connected to it magically can no longer speak.
00:52:59
Speaker
It's very convenient, particularly when you have police starting to kind of zone in a little bit more because you have police being like, hey, He was shot, but you didn't call for help until 45 minutes later.
00:53:14
Speaker
He was shot upright and after he was on the ground. If it was a self-defense, he he's shot once, he's on the ground. The threat is over. Now it's overkill or it's over-intentional.
00:53:26
Speaker
There was no attempt to save him, even though on the phone you'd said that you did. Like there was a lot of things that didn't match up that the police were starting to zone in on.
00:53:37
Speaker
And then all of a sudden he dies.
00:53:42
Speaker
Seems very convenient. A lot of convenient suspicious deaths here. And you know one would be tragic.
00:53:54
Speaker
But I think when this happens multiple times surrounding the same person it's pretty obvious that they have some role that they're playing in it. It's too what's way too much of a coincidence in my opinion.
00:54:09
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I do. I feel like the documentary kind of glossed over his death a little more quickly than the others. Mm hmm. Yeah, no, I agree. I it's just because of lack of information.
00:54:22
Speaker
Like, I don't think there was a huge investigation on it. I think. Right. Because you have the autopsy and it's just like, here's the findings. And I think it kind of closed that door while there were bigger thing, bigger fish to fry, for a lack of better words.
00:54:36
Speaker
But I agree. I wish they had kind of put more context in it because I think his marriage also started to change his mindset a little bit, it seemed.
Lori and Chad's Relationship
00:54:46
Speaker
It seemed like his wife brought him a little perspective maybe and softened him a little bit. And like,
00:54:56
Speaker
i don't know. I wish that we had more information on their relationship.
00:55:02
Speaker
Yeah. I think you're – I do think you're onto something like I, i think he was just getting a little too far outside their control. And also they probably figured too, if he wasn't around anymore, if Alex wasn't around anymore, the police would probably stop looking at Charles's death so closely because Alex was the one who killed Charles and he admitted to that. He admitted it was self-defense, but I think that was probably a big motivation for them too.
00:55:35
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree. Agreed. Because he's Lori's fall guy, i think, for everything. And if the fall guy passes away, that's even more convenient, honestly, because now he can't turn on you. Mm-hmm.
00:55:50
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. So we have the brother gone. We have the Lori's husband gone. So the only thing in the way of their spiritual forever matrimony is Chad's wife, who in this moment, they're still married.
00:56:09
Speaker
They're still she's alive, kicking. I will say he did upgrade though from a physical like general standard of beauty.
00:56:22
Speaker
He really did go from like zero to like 180 on preferences.
00:56:28
Speaker
I'm just saying brunette a little bit more tomboy like beauty pageant. Like it really is two completely different types of women.
00:56:40
Speaker
He ain't got no type.
00:56:44
Speaker
just saying yeah no definitely definitely um i think that laurie was the hot new thing for him was pretty exciting I mean, so it's not like he was anything to look at either. So, like, again, like, he really did upgrade or find the arm candy or whatever cringy terms you want to use. But, like, I really, i think, Katie, you mentioned it. Like,
00:57:12
Speaker
she was I don't want to say she's a prize, but she looked at herself very material, like outside is very important. And I think he had that probably same, oh my God, you're so beautiful. You're so perfect mentality about her.
00:57:30
Speaker
none Yeah. No, I think you're right. i mean, she's, Lori is very conventionally attractive. And I think Chad at the end of the day, is just ah a guy and I think he really wanted he wanted to be with Flory no matter what and yeah Tammy was standing in their way and I think that they thought that you know this was obviously the best they thought that this was the best way to get rid of her was to kill her Well, you forget one thing is it wasn't really Tammy anymore. She was possessed by a demon named Viola. Yes.
00:58:08
Speaker
I forgot about the names. So she's... i mean She gets shot out by a paintball gun. it doesn't rid her of the dark spirit.
00:58:19
Speaker
So she um fortunately, unfortunately, I guess depending on how you look at it, she passes away in her sleep. A 49 year old healthy woman just, you know, she just passes in her sleep and gets cremated very quickly.
00:58:36
Speaker
2019 is when she died. Right. And she had life insurance, $430,000 that Chad was the beneficiary of.
00:58:49
Speaker
So he got that little windfall. And then, oh this is the, that's also right, right after that, Chad and Lori told Alex that he had to marry their friend Zulema and he took her last name, which I thought was interesting.
00:59:05
Speaker
And that's, that's who he ends up dying with. How progressive you Yeah, definitely. And then the world is going to end um July 22nd, 2020.
00:59:18
Speaker
That's what Chad thought. So I have a note in here that Tammy was not a immediately cremated. She was buried. Her body was exhumed. And then it was cremated.
00:59:32
Speaker
um well thought she was cremated. But maybe I'm wrong. The reason I have this note here is there apparently, again, Alex getting some kind of clarity. When he was married, I i think he started to realize he was a fall guy.
00:59:49
Speaker
Because there was a brief moment in one of the interviews where they were discussing how ah she... He really started to kind of question his role in this dynamic because i think he and did he die?
01:00:08
Speaker
He died after Tammy, right? Yeah, I just meant I don't think I don't think Tammy got autopsy. think was alex that was alex captain Alex definitely had an autopsy. um Yeah, because he had the blood cut runs of family. But I'm wondering if like after Tammy's death was when he opened his eyes of like, oh, wow, they're going to try to blame that on me, too.
01:00:30
Speaker
And then that's when he was taken out. I don't have my timeline. Yeah. I think it was a little bit later because he did and Alex did end up moving to Idaho to Rexburg with Lori and they lived in that like same townhouse complex together.
01:00:48
Speaker
Yeah. No, don't think it was a media, but I think that may have started his deprogramming maybe is the word I want. Maybe. I think he definitely knew that he was ultimately going get blamed for everything by the end. I think he knew that.
01:01:03
Speaker
Yeah, I do
01:01:06
Speaker
too. I also want to, it's kind of jumping ahead a little bit, so if we're not ready to go there, let me know. But I also think like once Chad and Lori killed the kids, I am always just so shocked when people bury the bodies of their victims in their backyards.
01:01:34
Speaker
Like that just always seems like such a bad idea me. Such a bad idea. Yeah. Those videos of like, oh, just plant like an endangered plant over the bodies so they can't dig it up or those crazy TikTok things.
Disappearance of Lori's Children
01:01:52
Speaker
Yeah. I think some people get a pool put over it or like a deck or something. That would have been better idea. I think so what ultimately happened was to cover their tracks, Chad sent Lori a text saying, oh, there's a groundhog running along, or not a groundhog, a raccoon, it's been running along the fence line.
01:02:14
Speaker
I shot it, and I buried it in, like, the pet cemetery. And that was there, and all and the kids were buried in the pet cemetery. So that text was there, his way of, like, covering their tracks.
01:02:28
Speaker
Yeah. Just didn't feel like a lot of effort. I don't know. No, I don't. I think that that shows like he truly believed his own nonsense that he was not going to get in trouble for any of this.
01:02:40
Speaker
Otherwise, they would have done a better job covering it up. think they're very confident. I think you're right about that. Because the way, yeah, the way that they acted after the murders was just very, very nonchalant, very confident that they were going to get away with everything.
01:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this kind of brings us to the point in the documentary where the the kids are missing, essentially. um JJ's grandparents are starting to kind of freak out and they're trying to get in touch with Lori. They're trying to get in touch with JJ.
01:03:17
Speaker
She has a lot of excuses about why they can't talk to him and they end up calling the police.
Wrap-up and Future Discussion
01:03:25
Speaker
And is that where we want to leave off for today and we could pick up another day? Yeah, I think Katie gave us some great foreshadowing on what's to come. Obviously, there's big debacle of what happened, when it happened, and where are the kids?
01:03:42
Speaker
Because Colby starts going after it, the grandparents start going in, and no one has any answers for a long time until the bodies are found in the pet cemetery.
01:03:54
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So Katie, we're going to try to get you back on for part two and we're going to talk about the rest of the series. Okay, that sounds great. I had so much fun. Thank you guys so much.
01:04:06
Speaker
Oh my gosh, we're so glad that you joined us. Yes, and we can't wait to do part two. Yes. All right. Well, we will pick up right here next week. Bye.
01:04:18
Speaker
Bye.