Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Lori Vallow Part 3
133 Plays4 months ago
This week on the Mothers of All Crime Monica and Krystal wrap up their chat about Lori Vallow. We go beyond the docu series (Sins of Our Mother) discussing the court cases, controversies, misinformation and sentencing for the two main culprits- Lori and Chad. Please listen in for our thoughts and opinions on this awful, awful couple.
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
Like, follow and chat with us @ Mothers of All Crime on Instagram and Facebook. Email us @ mothersofallcrime@gmail.com
Now available on YouTube!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Mothers of All Crime'
00:00:23
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
Lori Vallow's Case Overview
00:00:58
Speaker
Welcome back to the mothers of all crime. Today we're picking up with part three of Lori Vallow. How are we doing, Crystal? Good. How are you? I'm excited for our last little push for Lori.
00:01:13
Speaker
I know. Me too. I'll worry. know. So this one we've mainly kind of focused around the documentary and what's been presented for the last two episodes.
00:01:26
Speaker
And this one, we're going to focus more on the court cases. So the documentary on the last part of it did mention a little bit of her case in relation to the murders, but we're also going to pull in some other sources just so you can get a better picture.
00:01:44
Speaker
But then also the more recent trials that happened and kind of touch on those as well.
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, and we definitely also want to talk about just Lori in general, her unhinged behavior, interviews she's done recently. There's there stuff. There's stuff to chat about with Lori. Yeah, so why don't we start with Idaho?
Legal Complications and Charges
00:02:10
Speaker
ah Kind of the OG cases, if you will. Sure.
00:02:17
Speaker
So it's weird one. So in 2023 is when she... is when she Yes. Very weird.
00:02:27
Speaker
And I think we talked a little bit about this part offline. It really is a hard one to look at because depending on what you read really changes what the information is. So there's a lot of conflicting information on the original charges, indictments versus grand jury versus what she they thought she was guilty of versus what they charged her with.
00:02:54
Speaker
So it was kind of a frustrating one, at least for me, where historically we have a lot of like, this is the charge. This is what they did, blah, blah. blah Here, you and I went back forth a little bit of like, hold on, what about this? Did you have this? I found this. Mm-hmm.
00:03:11
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I feel like that happens a lot with when stories are really big on social media and there's multiple documentaries and it's on Reddit and TikTok. And it there's just so many sources all clamoring to report very similar information. And sometimes it gets kind of confusing.
00:03:32
Speaker
um i think that's mostly what it is. But there's also so many charges that sometimes it's a bit confusing. And this is dragged out over multiple years at this point. It's still ongoing.
00:03:48
Speaker
So it's not simple. It's not like she's been charged with murder and this is the case and this is the trial and the victims get justice. It's a ongoing, never ending, it seems thing.
Witness Testimonies and Mental Fitness
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. And Maltese layered and a lot of witnesses came into them. um i I noted down particularly from different sources that some of these witnesses, they they remembered very interesting aspects and things that i probably wouldn't have thought of.
00:04:23
Speaker
um However, I mean, I guess in the time when you're sitting with... A child sleeping in your arms or talking to a teenager. Like those aren't things that you would necessarily think to remember until something tragic happens. Very similar to this case.
00:04:41
Speaker
So the minute details that a lot of the witnesses brought up during the first trial, i really was quite impressed considering the amount of time that had passed.
00:04:54
Speaker
That's true. I mean, i I guess those memories just become more significant in light of what's happened. And it's it's very impactful to the people that are involved. Yeah, so the original trial, um she ended up being charged, and correct me if I'm wrong, we had first degree murder, ah we had conspiracy to commit murder, and grand theft.
00:05:20
Speaker
The first degree murder, there was two charges of that, both for Tylee and JJ, conspiracy to commit murder, the same thing for her children.
00:05:29
Speaker
Exactly. And the grand theft is related to her stealing her kids money, basically, because she was collecting their Social Security benefits after they were deceased, which is not legal.
00:05:42
Speaker
And it amounted to quite a bit of money. So that's why it was not just theft, it was grand theft. And initially, Lori was declared mentally unfit, which I think is kind of ironic after Charles trying to get her committed and trying to get her assessed and trying to tell people that she was mentally unfit and she was delusional and she' was deranged for after her getting charged. All of a sudden, now she's unfit and unwell.
00:06:16
Speaker
i know. like... Justice for Charles. She can really put on a show either way. Yeah, exactly. poor Charles, honestly. Yeah, because I think coming back to it went up to the social security was like over $20,000 at one point. I don't know what the final number was.
00:06:35
Speaker
But either way, in an excessive amount of money. And i i think that's a really great point, right? And you got to wonder because she, at least for me, there's no question that she's very smart.
00:06:48
Speaker
You got to wonder if she thought that there was a level of technique to being found incompetent. Because she still had that idea in her head that like the world's going to end.
00:07:02
Speaker
So if your world's going to end and you are able to not
Manipulation Tactics and Witness Accounts
00:07:09
Speaker
be held accountable for your actions, because again, she's the divine queen, she's above us and above our laws, got to wonder if there was some kind of technique there that backfired.
00:07:20
Speaker
Right.
00:07:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think I think that's a good point. And I think a lot of what we see with Laurie and with Chad is they were just trying to ride it out initially. um But at the time of her competency, like the end of the world stuff had already come and gone.
00:07:40
Speaker
um But I think that they were always working a new angle. And still to this day, they think they can get away with all of this.
00:07:52
Speaker
Which just makes me ick. But... um So during that trial, some of it... Because, again, it happened over a very long period of time. It kept getting pushed off. um Melanie's boyfriend, if we remember who Melanie... The one where...
00:08:10
Speaker
They told the police that JJ was with Melanie when he wasn't. um He had a statement during one of the trials recollecting September 2019.
00:08:22
Speaker
And he remembers seeing JJ with Alex and Laurie's brother and him just being really peaceful but now understanding what happens he was wearing the same pajamas he wasn't really moving it's being speculated or implied that he may have been dead in that moment which I can't imagine if like you had that realization of
00:08:55
Speaker
he i thought he was sleeping he seemed peaceful like it wasn't anything anything of it and then turns out he had just recently been murdered is a that would keep me up at night for a very very long time yeah my god but It's just horrible to think about. I mean, they were so brazen with everything.
00:09:19
Speaker
And to just have essentially corpse of a child just floating around, passing it off like he's asleep. Not thinking anything of it. Like most people, not that I'm encouraging murder, but like most people, if you murder someone, you like hide the body.
00:09:36
Speaker
You don't bring it out when company comes over.
Podcast Parallels and Erratic Court Behavior
00:09:39
Speaker
like it was it's just a very, again, ah that's true to do when yeah the situation was happening um but i also think it's speaking of melanie and her boyfriend they still are doing that podcast that we had talked about back in episode one i think for this little mini series they're they're alive they're going which i think is interesting little point kind of connects to like things like
00:10:10
Speaker
uh nexium where just because your leader's not there doesn't mean you can't keep pushing on and following what you believe so ah are they doing they're they're doing the podcast that she had with laurie still yeah it goes under uh a different name but melanie's still podcasting well You got to rebrand at that point. Yeah. when you When you go on a killing spree, I'm going to read rename the podcast. That feels fair. It's going to be tough.
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah. I'll try to give you some good content, though.
00:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's a whole new series, honestly. that's That's perfect. And I'll be like, I can't believe I didn't even see it coming. Not at all. Not even a little bit. She tricked me.
00:11:03
Speaker
oh Yeah. Well, I don't think these two tricked much of anybody once they start going. So they did at the beginning. so I'll give them that. Definitely. so It's true.
00:11:16
Speaker
Obviously, eventually, the case does happen. Go on. She was found competent to stand. ah Because for anybody who doesn't know, if you're not competent to stand trial, you just keep getting pushed off.
00:11:29
Speaker
It's not something that they're like can do without you. Right. right And it what I thought was interesting that a lot of people might not know because a friend of mine didn't know.
00:11:41
Speaker
So I thought I should mention. When you are... determined to be mentally incompetent, it's not like you get to go home and wait it out.
00:11:53
Speaker
You're not staying in a nice hospital, getting reevaluated. You're put into a criminally insane location. Like you're, you're going to jail.
00:12:05
Speaker
You're not going to a hospital like you and I would go to, to get like treatment.
Public Perception and Legal Outcomes
00:12:10
Speaker
And the same thing is if you're found guilty by reason of insanity, it's not like you get to go to a nice hospital and get like things like that.
00:12:20
Speaker
You're going to jail just specialized for people with that deficiency. Right. And I didn't realize people didn't necessarily have that connection of these are not hospitals what you and i might think of.
00:12:37
Speaker
They are hospitals that are designed to be jails, which is a very different type of, quote, hospital.
00:12:49
Speaker
Definitely. i do think that's a common misconception that, you know, pleading insanity is a get out of jail free card or if you're not competent to stand trial, then you get to just push it off and you're not dealing with any consequences.
00:13:06
Speaker
If you are out on bail or bond, I suppose that's true. And you do get to just wait at home, but there's a lot of restrictions still. um But in someone like Lori's case, she was in prison the whole time.
00:13:22
Speaker
She did not, she was not in a, she was not home. She was not in any kind of therapeutic environment. She was in prison awaiting the day she could be competent so that she would be tried.
00:13:38
Speaker
It's not like there's any other kind of resolution that could happen. When you get better, you just get to go to court. Right. ah So I just wanted to bring that out because i didn't.
00:13:49
Speaker
For me, it's kind of second nature, but I also sometimes forget that that's not common knowledge. So.
00:13:57
Speaker
Mm hmm.
00:14:00
Speaker
So we have Miss Lori. She did finally get deemed competent. So, you know, good for her. Either she stopped the act or they decided to just let it happen.
00:14:12
Speaker
um And she was found guilty, which I was very pleased with.
00:14:19
Speaker
Very pleased. Yeah. um I think she was probably unbearable to be working with, to be in the courtroom with, to to witness.
00:14:31
Speaker
all of All of the videos I've seen of the trial, she terrible she sounds she looks terrible and she sounds crazy But none of that is very surprising. I am glad that she got guilty on all the charges, which is first degree murder of Tylee and JJ, conspiracy to kill Tammy and the grand theft, which sounds like a lot, but there are still more charges. Yeah. She got her sentencing for those.
00:15:04
Speaker
Yeah, so she was, to break it down a little, she was found incompetent in 2018, excuse me, 2019. She was found competent 2020. And then she was convicted in 23, correct? Correct. and then she was convicted in twenty three correct
00:15:20
Speaker
For this one. Yeah. So again, for the very long trial. And for what I was interesting for her, she waived her prelim trial, which originally was the spark that brought up the competency thing.
00:15:36
Speaker
And like you said, she was unbearable. I normally try to watch the courts that we talk about. I just can't stand her sometimes in court. And I feel this way about all of her trials. It gets worse as we keep going for me because by the end, spoiler, she's representing herself, which I – I tried. i did not successfully get through the whole thing.
00:16:03
Speaker
i had clips here and there because it was entertaining. But anything long, I couldn't get through. i don't know about you.
00:16:13
Speaker
Unwatchable. Yeah. But I will say what did see. to guns she made she's stuck to the guns of The better than, the superiority, the Bible quotes. She really did maintain that through all of the trials.
00:16:32
Speaker
um And for the original ones, the death of her children, the murder of her children. She made statements of, I've done everything to protect them.
00:16:44
Speaker
I don't know. You don't know. You don't know what it's like. You'll never understand. One day you will. Like, I'm sorry. I'm never going to understand why you killed your children. Like, there's no circumstance that that ever will make sense.
00:17:01
Speaker
you You didn't protect them. You killed them. You're the reason they're not here.
Religious Beliefs vs. Manipulation
00:17:08
Speaker
yeah. Yeah. Why you killed them like a month apart from each other and then concealed it for almost a year while you essentially fucked off and went to Hawaii to get remarried and do all of these insane things.
00:17:24
Speaker
I mean, there's just a ah trail of dead bodies in her wake. But she she really thinks that she's justified in all of this. Which brings me back to my my number one question with this case is who is the mastermind and who actually believes this stuff?
00:17:44
Speaker
Because sometimes I really think that Lori has fully bought in and other times I think it's all an act and it's just cheap it's too much now to go back and admit that all of this was absolutely ridiculous the whole time. Like she just can't live with herself then.
00:18:01
Speaker
And but is that a true i don't know. I go back and forth. Because it's, to me, she does have a little bit of diminished capacity if she truly believes these things.
00:18:15
Speaker
But I just don't know if she actually does.
00:18:22
Speaker
i mean, we've talked about that. And I still think that she, for the most part, does. ah i and i wish I didn't. I don't know why I wish she was more...
00:18:34
Speaker
to blame, but I do really, I think she executed it a lot of it. I think she thought things through, but I do for some reason, just listening to her, I do believe that she thinks she did it for the right reasons.
00:18:52
Speaker
Like, I know that sounds weird, But I think there is a level of psychosis there that is real. i think she absolutely, i agree that she manipulates and she is capable of making you believe what she wants.
00:19:06
Speaker
But I do think there's a level there that she bought in to what he was selling.
00:19:15
Speaker
i guess if you really want to believe something, like for her, if she really wants to believe it, and at this point, there's basically no other option. Because even if she says... it was all made up and crazy and I just wanted to kill them. Like her situation's not gonna change either way.
00:19:33
Speaker
And so maybe just for prison cred, maybe just for her to be able to look at herself in the mirror, sir continue to participate in her religious stuff.
00:19:45
Speaker
yeah Because you still, i mean, she can still practice her religion in prison, but if she denounces, all of the stuff that she's done, then it kind of also is denouncing her religion. i don't know if she could just go back to being a regular Mormon after all of this either.
00:20:02
Speaker
Probably not.
00:20:06
Speaker
You know, that and but is a good question. And that's not one we've talked about because we have a lot of Mormon offshoot conversations. And you normally hear about them going from modern day Mormonism or LDS. Yeah.
00:20:24
Speaker
to this crazy thing or they just started off in the extreme and never and then might downgrade to modern LDS so it's an interesting yeah but I only really ever heard that one with like FLDS or things like that that are just they still believe but they're stepping away from like the principle rather than their religion right I feel like with Lori, they kind of made their own religion just off the back of... Yeah, right? Because they had the Church of the Firstborn. So really, they became a whole new religion. Yeah. They they did, but they heavily... I mean, obviously, like...
00:21:08
Speaker
all the cults are just offshoots of the main religions, pretty much. Just paste, collect. Or they at least borrow things.
00:21:20
Speaker
And Chad's version of things relied heavily on the Book of Mormon and the Bible. And I think that they still considered themselves to be Mormon, but that's a bigger umbrella than the LDS. Yeah.
00:21:35
Speaker
For Laurie, though, who grew up in the Latter-day Saints, grew up as a regular Mormon, maybe that would be something comfortable for her to go back to. Maybe.
00:21:50
Speaker
it's the I mean, right now, her the community in prison is the community she has access to. And there may be a group of Mormons.
Religious Influence in Prison
00:22:00
Speaker
I mean, currently, she's jumping ahead a bit, but she's in Arizona, which I'm not sure what the prison population splits into religious-wise, but Arizona itself has Mormons.
00:22:14
Speaker
So she may have a community there willing to accept her, obviously way bigger than Chad's church.
00:22:23
Speaker
if she wanted all seven of them or however many there was yeah i mean i think at this point it's just that one podcast
00:22:33
Speaker
Most people have completely abandoned them. Even their biggest offenders. Oh, yeah. Everyone just kind of flew away. um the and It would be interesting. I think because they're in Arizona, if they were in Utah, I'd probably think there was a more Mormon influence in prison because have Catholicism is a big one.
00:22:57
Speaker
Muslim is a big one. And then, like, I've heard Mormonism is becoming more popular in going into prisons and, like, giving scripture lessons and things like that.
00:23:09
Speaker
So it could have had an increase because, again, prisons want to increase programming in relation to religion because it's an easy one. doesn't take a lot of money to run.
00:23:20
Speaker
most of the time they're volunteers. Yeah. ah But also there's the other side of it as lot of like Catholicism is based on a lot of programming. So like AA, for example, there's some people that will do certain religions because of the like food variety that they get. Like if you are a certain religion, you can't eat certain things. Those meals are separate and sometimes better depending on your prison.
00:23:48
Speaker
So i think there's a lot of aspects into faith-based initiatives within them. But if they were in Utah, i I would say she'd probably go back, but I don't know for Arizona.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. i I really don't know either.
00:24:08
Speaker
Well, either way, she's going to have all the time to figure it out because she is not leaving.
Sentencing and Further Charges
00:24:14
Speaker
um True. So with that one, she, I think we mentioned she did was found guilty on everything and was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
00:24:25
Speaker
So it doesn't really matter because she's staying there. So maybe she can make her own call in prison. i love that for her.
00:24:35
Speaker
She may, but she'll probably honestly latch on to a more charismatic leader. I don't know that she's going to have the creativity. Yeah, that's true. She definitely wasn't the one designing it. She was just executing it.
00:24:51
Speaker
um But after she got convicted of all her murders, including her children, Chad was also having a court case going on at the same time for...
00:25:06
Speaker
the two murder, the two children and his wife. But I think we should table that and just finish Lori first. Uh, but mostly because Chad's took forever.
00:25:19
Speaker
Um, and in the interim, Lori had another case while his was still going.
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah. Um, for Charles. Yes. In her extradition to Arizona. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. She also got charged in the attempted murder of Brandon, her niece's husband.
00:25:48
Speaker
And that one is kind of, I feel like, a little bit forgotten in this situation. Because didn't actually die. But I did see something that she's appealing the decision in that case because she apparently had a cold while the trial was going on and she was still forced to appear. And so that's apparently the grounds for her appeal.
00:26:12
Speaker
I don't, which I don't even understand the effort. Like you're never getting out. Like why does it matter? Yeah. She just will tie up the courts forever. She wants the attention, I swear.
00:26:24
Speaker
ah She just wants to be involved. She wants to have control and she wants people to believe that she's doing this right thing when she's clearly not.
00:26:35
Speaker
My opinion. Yeah. It's wild to me that she's still so concerned about her image.
00:26:44
Speaker
But so as her trials continued, because off she goes, um
00:26:53
Speaker
she decides to represent herself. And this is where she lost me. Because first of all, every person we've ever talked about who represents themselves, you did a terrible job.
00:27:08
Speaker
And there's a reason that we have the way the system is set up because there's no way that you can understand all of the rules rules.
00:27:20
Speaker
all that you have to do, the procedures. with There's a reason law school is four years. like There's a reason we have this. And there's a reason that people push back in the system of like, are you sure you want to do that? We're going to appoint someone to you anyway.
00:27:37
Speaker
you don't need You can represent yourself, but like Bob's still going to sit next to you and answer questions and do things for you because you're not going to know how. Yeah.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, lawyers don't even represent themselves, usually. Because stupid. Like, if a lawyer gets charged with murder, they don't represent themselves. Yeah, because you need other people working on this, and you're also extremely biased, and you can't possibly be objective or advocate for yourself because you're too wrapped up in it.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah. So, that was a And then again, she went off with the Bible verses.
Obsessive Details in Testimony
00:28:14
Speaker
And the judge constantly had to be redirecting her of like, you can't preach when you're in your opening statement.
00:28:24
Speaker
Her opening statement for the most recent trial was i think in June of 2025. And she just kept going on and on about Bible verses. And the judge kept having to be like, listen, I need you to need you to not.
00:28:41
Speaker
like
00:28:43
Speaker
Because they're unrelevant at that point. It doesn't even matter what you're saying. You can't use church and state as another thing. You can't use the Bible as your defense.
00:28:54
Speaker
It's not a defense. It's the same thing of why didn't know it was wrong? It doesn't matter. if you didn't Just because you're ignorant of the law doesn't mean you can't be charged for it. That's not how it works.
00:29:06
Speaker
That's true.
00:29:09
Speaker
Absolutely true. I mean, she just demonstrated a level of delusion and from her opening statement to her closing statement, nothing made sense. And she, i mean, she basically heard defense for the Charles situation is that she still claims that he was killed in self-defense and that he had attacked Alex and that this was a family tragedy and it was a horrible situation, but it it was not a murder and it was not a crime.
00:29:38
Speaker
and also that Alex is dead, and even if there was a crime, that's who would be charged with it. Mm-hmm. Lori is the common thread in every situation here.
00:29:49
Speaker
Yeah. I will say i'm going to bring up my two favorite parts of that trial. Please do. um The first one was when, so obviously they had, they were no longer together. Charles had been seeing other people.
00:30:04
Speaker
The woman that Charles had gone on a date with right before he was murdered would testify during the trial And Lori was questioning her and basically kept insinuating and sometimes even flat out saying like, so on your date, all you guys talked about me.
00:30:27
Speaker
Oh, you talked about this. And the woman at first was very much like, well, yeah, he's divorced from you. So you did come up. So we covered that topic. Yeah. Cause that is something important to talk about.
00:30:40
Speaker
And then she, Lori kept being very self-obsessed and very, it kind of showed that part of her that we don't see quite as much where she is a little bit full of ourselves. She does think everybody thinks she's amazing.
00:30:55
Speaker
And at one point this, this woman on the stand just kind of got tired of it. She's like, please. She's like, don't flatter yourself. We didn't talk about you the whole time, which I kind of proud of her. I'm like, that was a good, that was a good answer.
00:31:10
Speaker
I love that and I also believe it because I feel like Charles knew she was nuts, wanted to get away from her and was just moving on trying to find an exit. and Yeah. yeah So, I mean, he probably complained about her, but other than that, the one time when you want to say you have a crazy ex, do you actually do?
00:31:36
Speaker
I know because I am one of those people when someone says, that oh, i have a crazy ex, especially a man saying that about an ex-girlfriend, and ex-wife. I'm always like, okay. Like what did you do to make her crazy?
00:31:49
Speaker
Exactly. Oh, it's like, oh, it's it's interesting how all of your exes are so crazy and you have no responsibility and you take no accountability. But I think in this case, Charles really was a decent guy. Yeah.
00:32:04
Speaker
And I feel really bad. yeah Everything really shifted under his feet in a pretty terrible way. Yeah. Yeah, I do feel really bad for him. I feel bad for everybody, but Charles, I think maybe I feel the worst for because he he knew.
00:32:18
Speaker
Right, and he did everything in his power and no one listened. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And the people who who did listen were not able to help him. Because even like Laurie, her less crazy brother was trying to help and was trying to get involved and trying to stage an intervention. And Charles is dead before that could happen.
00:32:40
Speaker
So, you know, the second he starts getting supporters and people validating him and believing him and recognize there's a problem, he's taken out. Yeah. And yeah.
00:32:53
Speaker
Speaking of Adam, he is the second favorite part of that trial for me because, and again, I didn't want his whole testimony, but there was one point when they talked about some kind of dinner that everyone was having and Lori got so fixated on the fact that she apparently made these green chili chicken enchiladas.
00:33:13
Speaker
Did you see this clip? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And she just kept going in on it. And he's sitting there. He's like, I don't know what you made. He's like, that was years ago. she said, well, i make it for every single holiday. What do you mean you didn't know that I made green chili chicken and enchiladas?
00:33:28
Speaker
And he just kept looking it and be like, I don't understand the point of this. Yeah. She was so fixated. Is that a significant detail? Right. Like, and we're talking about planning a murder of someone you apparently used to love and you're fixated on the fact that you made green chili chicken enchiladas the day before you murdered someone. Was it like, what?
00:33:49
Speaker
The things that she focused on are insane. she's like, come on, admit it Those enchiladas, they were bomb. And it's like, Lori, that's not important right now.
00:34:04
Speaker
and You make great enchiladas, okay? Right? Like, congratulations. Make them for people in prison now. There you go They can sit there and tell you how great they are. Yeah. It's pretty much the only option is to make them in prison.
00:34:16
Speaker
Oh, God. And it it was just, I don't know why. i just kept going back to that because i it was, the whole trial was just so ridiculous. And But every time she got to a point where she didn't know something, it was blamed on someone else.
00:34:33
Speaker
So it was, well, I'm in prison. I need an extension for this. And the judge would be like, well, you have people on the outside who can do that for you that you're not allowing to do it.
00:34:43
Speaker
So no. um Or she would be like, nope, I'm sick. I can't do it. And would a have the something be delayed. or she would start vo like fake vomiting during proceedings like it was every time again there was some kind of challenge to her that's when the theatrics would seem to come out
00:35:16
Speaker
oh yeah definitely because she can act
00:35:20
Speaker
A little bit. Anyway, she doesn't know how to mimic normal behavior, but she can put on a show. Yeah.
00:35:28
Speaker
But I couldn't get through it. I tried for you guys. I did.
Appeals and Religious Defense
00:35:36
Speaker
She had tons of problems with her trial, though, afterwards, too. She did get convicted. She gets convicted of everything because she's an idiot and a monster and she's guilty. But she has also appealed this conviction as well as her other convictions.
00:35:51
Speaker
And this one ah she says that... um jurors had been aware of her prior murder convictions because it was like such a famous case which may be true but good luck finding a jury that has no idea about that yeah they're just living under a rock and Yeah, you can't sequester people from two years ago or something. You know what i mean? Like, you can't go back in time and uncontaminate jury when it's this is a huge case. And, ah you know, this is also a separate situation from the kids.
00:36:27
Speaker
Like, because you got convicted of killing the kids, that doesn't necessarily mean you murdered Charles. But there's tons of evidence that you murdered Charles. Right. they don't need that. Not that that helps you, but... No, but apparently there'd been, you know, prosecutorial misconduct, discovery violations, and the judge was not impartial.
00:36:50
Speaker
And then, like you were saying before, her big appeal was that her rights had been violated under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. All these appeals were denied, but yeah she did she did really resent the fact that she wasn't able to just use the Bible as her primary source.
00:37:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, because again, in each each case, it was, you can't use that. That's inappropriate. I need you to give a different statement. And I'm glad that they were so firm on that because it is easy to slip things in here and there.
00:37:24
Speaker
But i think also because it was so in your face and like such a base of what she was going to say, there was no no way around doing it.
00:37:38
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, definitely.
00:37:44
Speaker
I will say, though, at her sentencing, and I can't remember which sentencing it was, unfortunately, the judge did even comment on her hyper-ligisocity like comments.
00:37:58
Speaker
And it it was an interesting thing that even after it was continuously told, no, we're not going to like talk about that, that he still was like, it still slipped in.
00:38:10
Speaker
And the fact that he felt the need to comment on that was was interesting.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, I do think that's interesting. um Is there any other viral moments that you want to talk about from her trials? Not for me. Do you have any? I just, the chicken enchiladas, I'm telling you.
00:38:34
Speaker
If you haven't watched it, people listening. have seen that though. Anyone who hasn't seen it needs to go watch it because it is a little comic. It shouldn't be funny, but it is to me. like No, but it is funny. I think if you type that into TikTok, you'll get it pretty quick. Yes. And I think that's it.
00:38:49
Speaker
It's worth. It's worth watching. Yes. Do you have any favorites? i I don't think I have any more to talk about with Lori. mean, except for the Keith Morrison interview where she, the entire time is. So in 2025, very recently, Lori was interviewed for a 2020 special and it's one of the first media appearances, public appearances. I think it's the first time she's agreed to an interview the entire time. She's just like,
00:39:19
Speaker
well i don't know what you think keith but this is how it went keith and i don't know about that keith like it's just every single sentence she said ends with a very nasty keith and yeah i did really enjoy that yeah it was again very subtly aggressive
00:39:41
Speaker
It's very, yeah, she's very aggressive. I mean, she wanted to be in control of that interview. And Keith's a pro and he wasn't letting that happen. But she really thought that she'd be able to just charm her way and control the narrative and get him on her side. And it was very frustrating to her that that's not what was happening.
00:40:03
Speaker
It kind of reminds me of like Diane Downs, of Mary Kay Letourneau, like of a just a completely... Delusional is not the right word. I was going to go with Mary k Yeah.
00:40:16
Speaker
I think delusional is not the right word, but it's not not the right word.
00:40:23
Speaker
Is it like just delusions of grandeur? Like they just think they're so incredible and beyond reproach. I mean, all of these people went to prison for their crimes also. um So, I mean, it doesn't it's not a good strategy, apparently. It doesn't really work.
Chad Daybell's Trial and Strategy
00:40:40
Speaker
but they were very confident or at least they appeared to be confident. I still don't know if that's, if that's real or if that's an insecurity thing or that's a mental illness thing. Like, I don't know, but I feel like there's a similar thread between those people and it's, it's probably narcissism as well, where it's just, they cannot see how they are being perceived because in their own minds, they're so beyond.
00:41:11
Speaker
So to me, they all have similar vibes of being extremely infuriating and very dangerous also.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. um Okay, so now we have Mr. Chad. Mm-hmm. Yes.
00:41:31
Speaker
I do have a couple things I want to talk about with that. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:41:37
Speaker
But I don't know if you want to... Do we want to talk in order of what happened or what his defense Take it away. Wherever you want to start. think defense really... Well, I was just going to say that... So he's been charged... He's been... They're trying to get the death penalty for Chad.
00:41:56
Speaker
And his motions for trying to get... To remove the death penalty from his murder trials have been hilarious to me. And they're basically all that...
00:42:10
Speaker
Chad was manipulated sexually and emotionally by Lori and that's that's why he's not really culpable for his actions which I don't know if I've ever heard that as a defense defense but that's legitimately why thinks he's yeah I don't think it usually works for women either though like I mean maybe women do use it but I don't think it usually works and I don't think it's going to work in this case either but
00:42:40
Speaker
Basically, i mean, I don't know if I agree with Lori not getting the death penalty, though. So i I do want to clarify that he was the jury did find Chad guilty and did give him the death penalty. He has just been trying to get it removed ever since.
00:42:59
Speaker
Mm hmm. And. oh yeah. Yeah. So I do agree with you. And I think the big reason that they didn't go on the death penalty with Lori is because there was all the competency issues.
00:43:11
Speaker
And if she never had those competency issues, I don't think they would have hesitated. I think they would have charged the same. But that's the big difference between the two. They're both fully involved and are there's no question of guilt.
00:43:26
Speaker
But i the only difference that I could find like really big is Chad's competency was never questioned. And that's why they went full in. Because if you think about it, if you have someone who wasn't competent and then competent and then not competent then competent and then you put them to death, that is the opening for a lot of potential issues.
00:43:52
Speaker
Regardless if she did or not, there's going to be people that are against that because it's inhumane to put someone who is not competent to death.
00:44:03
Speaker
I do get that. But i would say the same argument that made Laurie questionably competent also makes Chad questionably competent.
00:44:14
Speaker
if Does he have these religious delusions? Does he have this kind of psychosis? Is this a mob mentality, a twisted way of thinking? like It's the same belief system.
00:44:28
Speaker
Right, but when you listen to them talk, he's not throwing Bible verses out left and right. It's very factual. It's very persuasive.
00:44:40
Speaker
Right, but that's the thing. is like If you're trying to present that you are incompetent or have some kind of question, you would present that in court.
00:44:53
Speaker
And his attorney would probably be like, listen, I need you to like spew something right now. Like, like I, yeah and that, that makes me go back to maybe Lori's the mastermind and maybe Chad's right.
00:45:08
Speaker
Maybe he was emotionally and sexually controlled by this person. And maybe he's just a wacko, a religious nut job. And this woman wanted to get rid of her husband. She wanted to get rid of her kids.
00:45:19
Speaker
And she wanted what she wanted. and she used Chad's ego and his mental illnesses ah take over.
00:45:30
Speaker
And now she's not going to get put to death. And he is.
00:45:35
Speaker
Yeah. See, and that's funny because I do the opposite. For me, it just reinforces that chad was in control because he consistently is very matter of fact, very this is the way, this is it. Like, here's the plan. Here's what going to do.
00:45:53
Speaker
When he started his convictions, it was like, all right, got to get my attorneys, got to get this. Very, like, very direct in all his answers when he listens things. Yeah. um And I think that if he truly believed what he was preaching, he would have brought it up more during his trial.
00:46:14
Speaker
Because looking at the way that there testifies, because it reminds me of like Keith Raniere. I don't think Keith Raniere, who's NXIVM, believed anything that he was talking about. He just wanted the control, of the power of the sex.
00:46:29
Speaker
And yeah he home most of his stuff he never talked about his his group his religion whatever the case is neither did chad but all his followers when they went up and and that's what they talked about very similar laurie i mean it is different when you're the leader of your cult versus someone else is a member of your cult and like how that's going to be perceived in court and down the line.
00:46:58
Speaker
But I'm talking about more at the time of the crimes, what they believed and who was psychotic and ah who had diminished capacity at the time of the crimes, not in the trial. I think by the time of the trial, Chad at least was aware that he was,
00:47:20
Speaker
but He knew by that point. And I think it had kind of snapped for him. Whereas Lori either is putting on a really good show because she doesn't want the death penalty or she truly believes it.
00:47:33
Speaker
And I go back and forth on this too. This is like my sticking point with this case is do they actually believe these things? Because it does make me view it differently. Not like it's justified. Not like it's okay.
00:47:45
Speaker
Not like they shouldn't in prison for the rest their lives. Because i i would be thrilled for them both to get the death penalty today. were were they their mindset at the time of the crimes is what I'd really like to know, which is hard to
Power Dynamics and Religious Beliefs
00:48:03
Speaker
prove. And that's the whole thing.
00:48:04
Speaker
Right. I think the only, we can really only judge them by now. Right. I think the only thing that can maybe get me, on camp was a little crazy ah and believed it was the fact that he already was writing books and talking about this kind of stuff prior to meeting lori it's not like met lori and then all a sudden have these ideas he already had this established light and dark system he already had this established
00:48:35
Speaker
past lives friends with jesus jesus excuse me establishment so that's the only thing for me that could maybe sway me going that he believed it i think originally but i think once he met laurie and saw how passionate she could become about it is when it started going off the rails uh hmm i don't know i i see your point i just can't get on board with him being the and i can't get on board with his defense first of all like part of me oh yeah for sure when i was reading it i honestly my first instinct was oh so your defense is what you did to laurie was my first instinct response um
00:49:24
Speaker
you But do you think that perhaps we, you i the courts, everybody has this bias just because of their sexes and because of the patriarchal religion?
00:49:40
Speaker
Or do you think that they're – I doest see that for sure. you take that away. I think that's a historical thing. But also there are cases where – because you're right. Historically, women are perceived as being weaker. Women in the court system get the benefit of the doubt of, oh, she wouldn't do that. She's a woman.
00:50:02
Speaker
um And I do think currently we still have that idea that like men can't get like sexually abused by women, that men can't be physically abused or controlled. I do think that's still there. There's actually a lot of documentation that that's still there.
00:50:21
Speaker
But in this circumstance,
00:50:26
Speaker
I don't. I don't think so, but it is possible. But again, I think where I come from is just the... in We constantly hearing about how Lori was so infatuated with Chad. We don't hear a ton of Chad's infatuation. We heard that like he really he loved her, or quote air quotes.
00:50:49
Speaker
like He wanted to be with her, but there was... At least my perspective, there seemed to be more of an obsession from Lori and Chad was more of, i like this coming with, what what comes with your obsession. You know what i mean?
00:51:05
Speaker
That could be, but I think that also may relate back to their roles and their... In their religion. And the fact that it's all patriarchal is it's really hard to get away from because it's not just like our perception or our opinion. It's also just a fact that in these religions, the men are in charge.
00:51:28
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. And so Laurie doesn't actually get to call the shots and she is just supposed to be his adoring fan because he's famous and he has a direct line to God and he's a prophet and this and that. And we see that time and time again in these fundamental religions, made up, not made up, whatever.
00:51:47
Speaker
And i think that because of that inherent power dynamic, the way it's just set up, we do perceive them differently. Yeah.
00:51:58
Speaker
I do also care want to point out that we we aren't getting giving credit to his amazing defense team because let's also be real here.
00:52:10
Speaker
He's not the one thinking that. He's not the one coming up with this idea. His defense team is. His defense team is taking everything. And chat. What he's telling them, right? And then like, okay, how can we take this information and what defense can we get?
00:52:26
Speaker
so i I wish we could be a fly on the wall because if this is the defense that they came up with and this is the best way to go, you got to wonder what are all the options of what he told them? Like what, what were the avenues that they tried? We're like, no Nope, that won't work.
00:52:48
Speaker
Like,
00:52:51
Speaker
Yeah. Well, the zombie thing didn't pan out, so they had to move on from that pretty quickly. Right. I feel like there's no other viable defense, though. it It's basically just it because there's no if there's no if about it. I mean, the kids are dead.
00:53:10
Speaker
You lied about it. They're in your yard. There's all of this evidence. Yeah. There's really no, there's no other defense. You can't say he wasn't involved.
00:53:21
Speaker
He was involved. He was even there and trying to flee the scene when the bodies were found. He's on the phone with Lori being like, oh, well, you know, they haven't found anything yet.
00:53:33
Speaker
You know, that's, there's no way around it. So I think that they have to, instead of denying it, they have to provide an explanation
00:53:44
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. the only thing they could do is try to get the charges reduced at this point or the sentencing reduced or changed. So they're trying to go for some form of diminished capacity and put the blame blame on Lori.
00:53:58
Speaker
And Lori's defense when she had one was trying to put the blame on Chad. But Lori is still not admitting to doing anything wrong. And she doesn't admit to killing the kids. Right. Whereas Chad is no longer denying her.
00:54:11
Speaker
Right. So that's also a difference. Which also makes me want Lori to have the death penalty as well. I just think that would be more fair. Maybe she'll still get it I don't know. listen If she keeps up with the ridiculous behavior, she might.
00:54:27
Speaker
And I don't like to defend Chad. And I do feel like I'm doing that too much. But at least he's not trying to defend himself in court. Because that is... yeah Never a good idea.
00:54:38
Speaker
There's the intellectual side of it is like he kind of realized he can't. Or he's listening to his attorney's advice, which is another reason why everyone should have an attorney. Yeah. um yeah So you can get the death penalty. Basically, it's what happened here. If he just was a little bit nuttier, maybe he wouldn't be actually getting put to death. I mean, he'd still be doing life in prison, though.
00:54:59
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And Lori's got consecutive life sentences like she's never getting out. Right. So it's I don't know what's
Death Penalty and Prison Realities
00:55:06
Speaker
better. Honestly, I think I'd rather probably have the death penalty myself of those two options, but still not great. The options aren't good.
00:55:15
Speaker
yeah yeah there's really only one other thing i wanted to talk about with chad do you have anything and just have one more thing about the kids i think my only thing for him and this is just from like an academic standpoint because if i was in the situation on death row i would never think this way but i'm gonna preface that but from an outside and academic standpoint I, knowing how death row, the speed of death row, I don't think I'd even bother fighting it.
00:55:51
Speaker
If you get it, the chance of you actually being executed is so slim. Like in Idaho, there are nine people currently sentenced to death row in Idaho. However, one in six of people who have ever been sentenced to death in Idaho actually are put to death.
00:56:08
Speaker
And the last person who was executed by lethal injection in was in uh 2012 so and the one before that was 94 excuse me 2011 then there was 94 and then there was 76 so the chance of it actually happen you're more likely to die of old age like just gonna preface that but again if i was on death row i would not be thinking that i would want to get off death row um but just a little fun fact sure the chance of that happening is next to zero
00:56:42
Speaker
I think also perhaps Chad thinks that he would have more freedom in prison off of death row if he was in a general population setting. Yeah, your lifestyle is much better when you're not on death row. That is absolutely true.
00:56:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:01
Speaker
Yeah. So I feel like maybe that's partially the reason, but I appreciate the timeline of the executions in Idaho because it does really matter what state you're sentenced to death in because in Texas or Florida, like it is different. You're more likely to get executed in a place that has a high execution rate, but Idaho clearly is not in a rush to execute people.
00:57:23
Speaker
And he is also an older man. he may not live for 30 more years while it waits out but I think he wants to maybe tie it up with appeals also just to even drag it out longer and that is partially a reason that people don't get executed quickly is because when you get a death sentence as opposed to pleading guilty obviously you can keep appealing and people do that all the time because what else literally what else do you have to do nothing exactly so it's pretty much all your time doing that fine what's your last final thought for him
00:58:02
Speaker
Oh, so the last thing i want to talk about with Chad is that hit two of his children testified on his behalf in court. And I thought that that was really interesting and deeply sad.
00:58:15
Speaker
um But they really... came to his defense and implied... So it's two of his kids. He had five. um Emma and Garth testified that their mother was getting really tired very easily, that she had all of these health problems, that her death was just yeah natural causes.
00:58:41
Speaker
i mean, they said that. And then they also said that Tammy was a full believer in Chad's religion. Well... I want to phrase like that, that Tammy and Chad believed in the same religion and that they both, you know, did the darks and the lights of people, the ranking systems.
00:58:58
Speaker
They were both fully involved and invested in that way of thinking and that this was not like just some new fad cult that Chad had created. um And I just think,
00:59:12
Speaker
it's It's really interesting that they're still defending him after so much has come out. You would think the kids being found in the backyard would have been enough, but.
00:59:24
Speaker
Yeah. And what my understanding for it was is they weren't defending him on that. It was the one of their mom's. Him killing their mom, if I understood it their testimonies. Yeah. Again, because only watched part of it Yeah.
00:59:39
Speaker
Exactly. It was for Tammy's murder. Yeah. And my only thought is that might just be a survival instinct for them of like – Mm-hmm.
00:59:51
Speaker
Yes, you killed these other people. It's awful. Right. Like it's that idea that because she she did have pre-existing condition. Like it wasn't like she was like this healthy bodied person with never having a history before of anything.
01:00:06
Speaker
um So I think it might partially just be like a it's too hard to... Know that your dad already did these terrible things.
01:00:17
Speaker
That he's going to prison forever. You don't have any parents anymore. Your stepmom is effing crazy. it i think it would be too much to also lose your dad fully. You know?
01:00:33
Speaker
and don't know. Yeah.
01:00:38
Speaker
I guess, yeah. Maybe it's just a bridge too far and they just can't mentally
Impact on Families and Final Thoughts
01:00:43
Speaker
go there. It's too upsetting. But i think to come and speak on his behalf is... i mean, they they may truly believe it, though, that her death was natural causes.
01:00:54
Speaker
I don't think even if I did... if Even if I wanted to believe it, I don't think I could go up on Stan and be like, no, he'll murder those people but not this person. like I don't think I could do it. like publish she was really sick.
01:01:08
Speaker
Yeah. It's like she was tired. That's not this. That's not, you're not just dead. Me too, man. Me too. Yeah. I'm tired a lot too, but I still think it would be pretty suspicious if I died in my sleep tonight. Like I still think that that it is worth looking into.
01:01:24
Speaker
Right. But at this point, tired there's a lot of evidence that you can't just X and that's, that's what I think is, is tough. Um,
01:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, no, that is an interesting one. I do feel bad for them, though. Like, it's just... Me, too. Those poor kids. Because now they have to live with it all.
01:01:47
Speaker
Yeah. Like, Lori's kids is awful, too. Well, they're victims of this, too. Yeah, like, it's... Indirectly, yeah. The indirect victims of what already happened. And it is sad. Yeah.
01:02:02
Speaker
There's so many indirect victims because it's Charles's kids. It's Charles extended family. It's Chad's kids. Chad's extended family. Tammy's extended family, JJ and Tylee and their extended families. And then Lori herself and her extended family. it It's they've hurt so many people.
01:02:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was everything I had for the couple overall. Oh, yeah. Do you have any final thoughts? Me too. or Lori?
01:02:41
Speaker
i do not. I think that um she's right where she needs to be. i think that's all we got. And I'm ready to not talk about her again. ah I'm going to go watch the chicken chili and saladas one more time and then never talk about her again. Yeah.
01:02:56
Speaker
Yeah, that one is pretty good. I do recommend looking that up on YouTube or TikTok. Alrighty. Well, we'll pick up back here next week with our next mother. Until next time. Okay, bye.