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Kendra Licari (Unknown Number)
218 Plays1 month ago
This week on the Mothers of All Crime we are diving into the excellent documentary - Unknown Number starring the criminal herself- Kendra Licari. This documentary takes us on a wild ride uncovering a mother's terrible secret. This mom was catfishing and cyber bullying her own daughter. This is a unique case with debatable motivations that Krystal and Monica will attempt to unpack.
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Mothers of All Crime'
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
00:00:49
Speaker
Welcome back to the Mothers of All Crime.
Viral Documentary: 'Unknown Number, The High School Catfish'
00:00:51
Speaker
Today we're talking about my new favorite documentary, Unknown Number, The High School Catfish. How are we doing today, Crystal? are You excited about this one?
00:01:00
Speaker
I'm good. How are you? i know we were talking about this offline that this is probably one of the best presented documentaries I've seen in a long time because it, A, everybody's still alive, which is kind of cool. It's relevant to a lot of things that everyday people deal with.
00:01:22
Speaker
I think it touched on the evolution of technology and then there were just so many suspicions. I i just, yeah, they did a great job. I'm very excited.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I really, really liked it. And it's obviously, everybody was abuzz about it. And it went super viral. And it's been all over TikTok. And the reaction videos have been great.
00:01:47
Speaker
But, I mean, it was a really compelling story. And I love the way they presented it. Sky Borgman does great documentaries. um and so And this is pretty recent. just came out in August.
00:01:59
Speaker
So, new topic for us.
Lauren Licari's Mysterious Texts
00:02:02
Speaker
And yeah we basically start out talking about Lauren Licari is the main character, i guess, that we're talking about.
00:02:11
Speaker
she When the story starts out, she's 13 years old in 2020, just to give context. um Lauren's going to go be going to a Halloween party.
00:02:23
Speaker
essentially and she's 13 and she has a boyfriend his name is owen and they are cute little blonde kids there's cute pictures of them together you know it's it's kind of a sweet like middle school romance one would think that they weren't not a goal yeah They were in middle school.
00:02:47
Speaker
They were 13. Well, yeah, I guess it ended they ended it ended when they were in high school. You're okay. I'll take it back. yeah But, like, that's little. They're very young when they meet.
00:02:59
Speaker
So... Owen is like a sports star. Lauren is also a sports star. So they're very into sports together. They go to the same school. Their parents become very chummy and friends.
00:03:13
Speaker
And it seems especially like Lauren's mom, Kendra, and Owen's mom, Jill, spend a lot of time together at sporting events, at school events, socially. um During COVID, they actually were in a bubble together, whatever that means.
00:03:28
Speaker
So they definitely spent a lot of time together, almost like extended family.
The Small Town Mystery
00:03:32
Speaker
And the problem really starts when Lauren is going to ah Halloween party and starts getting weird text messages, basically telling her not to go.
00:03:47
Speaker
From an unknown number, too. And yeah this is a super small town, Michigan. Everybody kind of knows everybody. And i think that's important, too, because in they even mention it in here. During small towns, you really kind of get...
00:04:05
Speaker
involved in everybody else's life because there's not a lot of other things to do. so you know everybody's business. It's hard to hide from anything. And so when something, quote, interesting happens or different, it becomes like the talk of the town.
00:04:24
Speaker
So getting a random number that you don't know, she kind of passed around her, like, Owen doesn't know, Lauren doesn't know, they're friends. Like, the fact that nobody had this number was bizarre.
00:04:36
Speaker
Right.
00:04:39
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. it's They do mention that many times throughout the documentary, how it is such a small town. There's two stoplights. There's two bars. It's an extremely small area. There's one high school.
00:04:52
Speaker
Everyone knows everyone and the parents are very involved in after school activities and also really seem to know what's going on socially.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah. So when this party that was a yearly thing and these text messages started off kind of slow, like six a day. And for teenagers, getting six text messages in a day is not...
00:05:19
Speaker
Mind-blowing. You can send six texts in a minute if you want to. But they kind of like after the party went through a lull and then popped back up again up to like 50 texts a day.
00:05:35
Speaker
And this was over a period of a year. And they started using Lo in the text message, which is like a nickname for her around family and close friends, the people who know her. So she started kind of trying to really like narrow down who it is.
Escalation: Explicit Texts and Relationship Strain
00:05:54
Speaker
And one thing that I thought was very impressive for someone, particularly her age, was she actually picked up the phone and tried to call this random person.
00:06:05
Speaker
because she wanted to address it she wanted to deal with it like who are you why are you doing this and then they wouldn't pick up and then they would send a text message instead but I thought that was really remarkable for someone her age she's described as like kind of shy soft-spoken and to have the maturity to do that I thought was very impressive ah Yeah, i I was very impressed by Lauren throughout. i just felt like she was so strong in the face of something that was so awful and like I'm sure i really marred her whole high school experience.
00:06:44
Speaker
um And Owen is getting these texts too, but they seem to be not quite as bad, the ones that Owen are is getting. The ones to Lauren are getting aggressive. They're getting...
00:06:57
Speaker
insulting there's a lot of sexual content threats very vulgar yeah very vulgar yeah the phrasing is strange the language is weird um it's a lot of attacks about lauren's physical appearance and about how owen deserves better essentially um that lauren is not putting out that she's not giving head all kinds of things like this which to text 13 year old this is really really crazy but they're they're very aggressive texts and they're getting more and more explicit and degrading they're even encouraging self-harm and suicide for lauren and the person behind the unknown number is also claiming that they are in a romantic relationship with owen
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, which obviously when you're getting repeated information over and over and over again, it's going to cause friction.
Breakup Fallout and Continued Harassment
00:08:00
Speaker
um They started fighting and eventually they did end up breaking up.
00:08:05
Speaker
And I think part of it was they were together for, they said, two years. And part of it I really do think was like, hey, if we give this person what they want, which is us not to be together, maybe it'll go away.
00:08:21
Speaker
That did not work. It kind of just then shifted to more self-harm and you should just get out of here altogether. You're terrible. ah But like you said, it kind of, Lauren was more being attacked and i think Owen was, he was being somewhat attacked, but also like it was more of a sexual innuendo to it where there was the connotations But there were sprinkles of self-harm in there because he, his mom produced, throughout the documentary, you see text messages from both sides being sent, being received.
00:09:02
Speaker
There were hundreds of pages of texts that they ended up producing to law enforcement. But- One of the responses that Owen eventually gets to is, you make me think about self-harming or being suicidal. And so you got to think that theyre there is probably some there in there.
00:09:20
Speaker
He also was getting some kind of self-harm stuff. We just didn't necessarily see it as much because of the disparity between the two.
00:09:28
Speaker
Yes. I think also... Owen felt like he was trapped, especially after breaking up with Lauren, which he initiated. He broke up with Lauren and he basically said it's because of the catfish or I just like can't do this anymore.
00:09:43
Speaker
um But also after he broke up with her, he got a new girlfriend that lived in a different town. And that girl's mother started getting harassing text messages from an un unknown number. Yeah.
00:09:55
Speaker
Like, not like the town next door. Like, what was it? Like two hours away or something like that? Like, if it's not like they could happen to just know this other parent. Like, in not the girl, the girl's mother.
00:10:09
Speaker
Right, exactly. But if if you're Owen in that situation, it's like, well, I thought getting rid of Lauren was going to solve this problem and it's not solved the problem.
00:10:19
Speaker
And so now what do I do? Is this going to be a problem in every relationship that I have? Mm hmm. It would. Well, that would be maddening. ah Yeah. And then you're just trying to like be a teenager and being a teenage boy. All you think about is girls anyway. it's got to be really frustrating.
00:10:42
Speaker
But this investigation was peculiar in a lot of
Parents and School Involvement
00:10:47
Speaker
different ways. And the parents of Lauren and Owen, specifically the mom, like went feet first. They were in the school. They were asking the principal to do an investigation, superintendent.
00:11:02
Speaker
um They really wanted to figure out who were sending these messages. so And All of a sudden, kids were being hauled in left and right talking to law enforcement.
00:11:13
Speaker
um The principal tried to do like a surveillance because there's cameras in schools now seeing like when a text message was sent was anybody else on their phone, which. I liked the concept, but at the same time, find me a teenager who if every any second they can be on the phone isn't.
00:11:32
Speaker
so like exactly I that was kind of weird, actually. Like, what, you're going to catch the one kid on their phone? No, they're all on their phone. So that really even help. It might narrow it down. So like maybe like, hey, out of the 700 kids that are in this building, here's 100 of them that had were on their phone the same time over three different text messages. Like it could give them a starting point with that they could give to law enforcement. But that's my only thought.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yes, but that seems like very exhaustive to figure that out. Like that's a lot of surveillance of these um these videos through... I mean, the the messages were pretty incessant during school hours. So I guess maybe it wouldn't have been that hard when you're getting 50, 60 messages a day.
00:12:19
Speaker
But it still doesn't really pan anything out. And they're interviewing kids from the school. And the parents are complaining that nothing is happening and, you know, it's not being figured out.
00:12:36
Speaker
And they're doing, you know, a lot of digital investigation as well. Gathering phone records, looking at IP addresses, looking into those apps that spoof numbers and interviewing parents, school staff.
00:12:52
Speaker
And then the students, it seems like there's a couple of suspects amongst the students um throughout the documentary. One was, oh, sorry.
00:13:04
Speaker
No, you're good. I was just gonna say like, there was an interesting collection of them because you had, Obviously, in every school, you have your cliques, right? And the you have the cool popular kids, the cheerleaders, the sports, the quiet nerds. like It was kind of funny listening to the kids describe their groups versus like how we described them when we were in that age. Sure.
00:13:33
Speaker
it And I don't know if it's just because obviously they had cameras on it, they were doing it differently. But the like for the quiet kids, they're like, well, the quiet kids you know could be could be smart. And youre like you have one of these moments you're like, yeah, okay. Well, there's also the nerd group. like It's funny that they only had these like three or four groups versus when...
00:13:57
Speaker
At least where we were growing up, like, there were 10 or 12. Like, was it wasn't just these few categories. Yeah. But I also, I guess, lived in a much bigger town.
00:14:10
Speaker
and Even though it wasn't a big town that I lived in, people were less involved with like their kids' lives. And I think that there was still more stuff going on. um It seems like there was pretty much nothing going on at this school and with these kids except for this.
00:14:27
Speaker
um So I feel like it was just, it was small, which I think makes it even more clicky.
00:14:35
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, no, you're right. There were, we had some front running suspects and ah again, it was kind of all suspects that were presented by parents.
00:14:48
Speaker
It doesn't feel very developed. Like it feels like what they were like, all right, who do you suspect? And they kind of rolled with it, which is fair. That is ask what you think, but it definitely felt very,
00:15:03
Speaker
selective at this point. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem like the sheriffs at least were coming up with any of their own suspects, really. Or at least I didn't hear any that they mentioned. It does seem like it was coming from the families.
Suspicions Rise: Adriana and Chloe
00:15:19
Speaker
So the two main people that get accused of this are Owen's cousin, Adriana, who I felt really bad for. She seemed...
00:15:32
Speaker
so quiet and sweet and that it seemed like school was already kind of rough for her prior to this happening and it really did not improve things for her.
00:15:45
Speaker
um She, so the reason that she had been accused essentially was there was a photo taken at Owen's family Christmas that ended up in the unknown number.
00:16:02
Speaker
harassing text messages and owen's mother is like well who could possibly be so close to us that they're they have access to this stuff at our christmas party but they're also involved in the school and there's one classmate that happened to also be at the christmas party because it's owen's cousin adriana and so she's blamed for it And there was also so Chloe, who was kind of the polar opposite of Adriana in school.
00:16:38
Speaker
To me, she seemed more of like a popular bully. And that's night and day from Adriana.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's important to also mention that part of the reason andre Adriana got even considered in this whole thing is because the the original one was Chloe. It was who are some people who have some histories of things like this.
00:17:05
Speaker
But... um Eventually, when it started going on and they started interviewing Chloe and interviewing her parents and kind of looking into it, it was the text that from The Unknown Number changed. The text turned into too much about mentioning Chloe. Like they were sending pictures of Owen and Chloe. They were talking about her. Like it was too often. They started really being like, yep, it's me. It's Chloe.
00:17:36
Speaker
Which if you actually are the person doing it, that's not real. Like you're not going do that if you've been hiding yourself for a year and a half at this point. And that's kind of when that in other person got introduced and Chloe, Adriana felt bullied by Chloe and her friends because they, like you said, they were kind of like the popular kids and they kind of zoned in on, ah you're right. Like she was the quiet girl.
00:18:05
Speaker
School was kind of hard, but also that is someone that also can fit the description of, Sitting being a cyber bully, being someone who attacks from a different way eventually could snap and become aggressive, violent, whatever the case is.
00:18:23
Speaker
And I think that was their kind of thought process of like, okay, she's doing this to frame her bully to get back and take down as many people as she can. And when you actually start talking, like you see ariana Adriana on the interview, you do feel bad for her um because she then all of a sudden gets text messages from an unknown number.
00:18:44
Speaker
and the poor thing is like, I'm seeing what my cousin's going through and this other girl that I know of, don't want to be dead. Like my life's hard enough. Yeah. yeah Yeah, you're totally right. i did I did put that in backwards order. And it is important for the context of how it got from Chloe to Adriana.
00:19:04
Speaker
And they it was getting very blatant, I guess, the stuff coming from Chloe. Or supposedly Chloe.
00:19:15
Speaker
And there was one really interesting part, I thought, where Chloe was on vacation in Florida and the IP address from the text messages was now coming from that same area of Florida.
00:19:28
Speaker
And i think at some point that was looked at very damning evidence for Chloe. by
00:19:36
Speaker
you know why would Chloe incriminate herself to this degree? Why would she send pictures of herself and Owen? Why would she be talking about Chloe's score on a basketball game if if it was really her and she'd taken such lengths to disguise her identity? like Why would she just mess that all up now?
00:19:54
Speaker
So none of it really, doesn't make sense. And I think that like a lot of these cases, we're trying to apply... some logic to a very illogical thing, by none of these are really working out. None of these suspects are really working out.
00:20:08
Speaker
And the FBI is really, really trying to connect the anonymous messages to an IP address, something that is hard evidence of who is doing this, where are the
The Shocking Revelation: Kendra's Confession
00:20:22
Speaker
texts coming from? There must be a source.
00:20:25
Speaker
Even if there's spoof numbers, it's the internet is traceable and everything is there forever. IP addresses are connected at some physical location.
00:20:35
Speaker
And so you could keep spoofing it, keep spoofing it, but there is a physical location that should be able to be traced back. And that's when our ah big twist comes in.
00:20:48
Speaker
um yes there was one consistent number that kept popping up and the FBI put their report together handed it back to police local police and were like the person the only only consistency we found was for mom Lauren's mom
00:21:15
Speaker
Who is in the documentary. It's the craziest thing. yeah The investigation to figure out her kid being harassed.
00:21:27
Speaker
She complains throughout the documentary that the school and the police and other people were not taking this seriously enough. And that that she's so worried.
00:21:38
Speaker
and And there was a group of people that were doing this. And I will say, like, in the text, all of a sudden, it was started very, like, singular spoken in the text. And then it turned into, like, there were wheeze thrown around in there. Mm-hmm.
00:21:54
Speaker
It didn't start that way and it wasn't always that way, but every once in a while we you would see a we are going to do or we think this is funny or something like that. So it I thought that was bizarre because you have one consistent thing over and over and over again being Kendra yet using plural language randomly and not consistently. Right.
00:22:24
Speaker
But yeah, mom. Wow. And I definitely want to talk about them, the police coming to the house and talking
Confronting Kendra: Lies Unraveled
00:22:33
Speaker
about this. I just thought it was handled so bizarrely.
00:22:38
Speaker
So we can set the body cam footage was nice. Yeah. so they had body cam footage. I do love body cam footage. Local PD coming to the house to serve the search warrant to collect all of the digital devices. So cell phones, laptops, things of that nature.
00:22:55
Speaker
And Kendra pretty much said, I have one cell phone and one laptop. We can go inside and have a conversation. Right. And then they move inside. Lauren is home, but at that time they were pretty much like, she needs to stay in her room when we have a conversation.
00:23:09
Speaker
Yeah. They're like, oh, we prefer she doesn't come in for this talk, which... you know I don't know don't know I'm not sure if any of this makes sense of the way to relay this information but regardless they sit Kendra down and try to confront her with the evidence that points to her and she does admit it but in kind of a roundabout way And very vaguely.
00:23:39
Speaker
And never really gives an explanation for why she does it. She just implies that the first couple text messages were not from her.
00:23:50
Speaker
And the rest of them were from her. But that she really doesn't want anyone to know about it. And doesn't want Lauren to know about it.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah, that part I thought was hysterical. Like, yeah, shows you used sentiments that were, well, it didn't start with me. I fed off of it. It didn't start like that.
00:24:14
Speaker
And eventually Lauren comes out during while they're talking to Kendra and the police kind of share the status of the case with her.
00:24:28
Speaker
Because again, this is, she's the one who's having to deal with this for the last 22 months. It's a long time, particularly in teenage world. That's a, very, very long time.
00:24:39
Speaker
And she's had all kinds of other issues. The family themselves are having financial trouble. And as much as parents, I think, try to hide that from their children, when you're moving three or four times from eviction notices on the house, moving your stuff into storage, you're Your kids know that there's trouble, which is going to give stress if they're aware of the stress or not. It could be underlying, but it's there.
00:25:07
Speaker
And so she's sitting there hearing this information, and I don't think it's just from watching the video. It's not really processing it in her head because Kendra gets up, hugs her.
00:25:21
Speaker
It's like... like it's as if she isn't the one who just did all of this and kendra is just trying to be like oh i love her blah blah and more say there you kind of look she looks confused like the poor thing is just getting so much information by someone who's supposedly supposed to protect her the hugging the hanging all over lauren it was very manipulative it it It's like Lauren can't have a reaction because her mother is like coddling her, swaddling her all over her in her space. Like there's no room for Lauren to have any kind of reaction.
00:26:01
Speaker
So she just sits there and the police tell um Lauren and Kendra that Lauren's father needs to come home and they need to talk to him.
00:26:12
Speaker
And he does. And they tell him and they also tell him that Kendra does not have a job. And that seems to make a lot of things click for dad.
00:26:25
Speaker
And hasn't had a job. Hasn't had a job. The entire time Lauren's been being catfished, Kendra has been a full-time catfisher because she supposedly had two well-paying jobs in tech, IT.
00:26:40
Speaker
And... i It sounds like maybe she didn't even ever have one of those jobs and the other one she got fired from. And she just straight up was not working. It's not for super clear. Yeah.
00:26:56
Speaker
How do you pretend that? But I guess she was in charge of all the family household like finances. So it's easier to hide that you aren't bringing in money if you're in charge of the finances. Yeah.
00:27:10
Speaker
Because that was my first thought is like, how do you hide from your husband who you live with and share bills with that you aren't making any money?
00:27:23
Speaker
and
00:27:25
Speaker
eventually, and like you said, it kind of clicked for him because then it all kind of spiraled where, well, we did end up with an eviction notice on the house. You told me there were bills that were that were being paid and then clearly they weren't. like and the poor man just started to spark like i felt really bad and he actually was the one who told police that she has more than one cell phone yeah because that was crucial she was like nope i only have the one phone and the laptop and here there and then when police came back in that his tone kind of changed he's like where's the other phone like i'm going to find it where is it
00:28:10
Speaker
So she did it and eventually was like, oh it's in the woods where I was standing. Kind of hit it. Or she chucked it when the police walked up. ah Which...
00:28:21
Speaker
shows me there was thought process like it wasn't just like I downloaded this app and couldn't stop like I went out and found another phone and had two phones on me at all times to do this that's a lot of effort and thought process well I believe he thought it was her work phone so no I meant from her like her oh from like her it was so intentional it was so intentional Yeah. Yeah. And also for him, like he probably was like, yeah, she's working. That's what she's doing on her phone all day. She's furiously working.
00:28:57
Speaker
It's just, it's so wild. I mean, after multiple evictions, like stop letting her handle the
Family Fallout: Kendra's Expulsion
00:29:05
Speaker
finances. Like this is not, this is not working. Right.
00:29:08
Speaker
Clearly there's an issue. But I don't want to blame him for this because I do see how she is so manipulative and how she didn't want him to see. Yeah, no, I don't blame him at all, actually. this For the first time in a very long time in this podcast, I don't blame the man at all.
00:29:28
Speaker
ah Yeah, I actually really thought he handled this all pretty darn well, considering. Yeah, he pretty much, like, once the police were like, hey, this is the information we have, he's like, hey, I'm going to protect my kid.
00:29:40
Speaker
you're goingnna she He kicked her out of the house. He's like, you're going to your parents. She's like, well, don't want to go. He's like, I don't really care. And he's like, I called them. I didn't want to leave a message or text this. I told them they need to come in person. You're going with them.
00:29:53
Speaker
And Kendra had the audacity to go stand up, hug Lauren on the head, like around her head and was like, I can't leave her, ma'am.
00:30:08
Speaker
It's honestly sickening. Sickening. He was just like, i don't that I don't really care what you want right now. why He's like you're getting out of this house. but He made a really, really good point where he was like, if he's like if you don't get out of here,
00:30:25
Speaker
While the cops are still here, like, one of us is going end up killing each other, basically. We're going to get into it if you leave. Or getting physical, like, violent. Yeah. Like, I will beat your ass, basically, is what he was trying not to say in front of the cops. He was like, but you probably want to leave while the cops are still here because I'm pretty Which, mean...
00:30:44
Speaker
which i mean I cannot imagine. Like torture that you watched your child go through for two years, reading these messages from a what you believed with stranger.
00:30:59
Speaker
And then realizing it is your friend, your wife, the mother of your children, your housemate. Like there's so many things like the betrayer. Like yeah i don't blame him at all. No. And he how thought that Kendra was a good mom.
00:31:18
Speaker
Like he watched her raise Lauren and he and he raised her with her and he thought that she was great and that she was just like super involved and like obsessed with her. And what like a illusion to be shattered. It's very, it's crazy. Yeah.
00:31:36
Speaker
Sorry, what were you going to say? Although, i was going to my only thing that we did skip over is
00:31:46
Speaker
there were multiple times where multiple people told Owen's mom, at Lisa, I think, and Jill.
00:31:56
Speaker
Who's Lisa? Well, her name is Lisa now. ah It's the Lisa haircut, really, is what it is, I think. I feel like Jill and Lisa are similar, also. m Well, either way, both kids' parents, why don't you just change their phone numbers?
00:32:13
Speaker
Like, get rid of the phone, get them new phones, get new phone numbers. The problem will solve themselves. And do now, retrospect, it would not have solved the problem.
00:32:24
Speaker
But... The fact that both of these parents looked at everyone who told them this, they were like, nope, I'm not going to do that. I want someone held accountable and allowed their children to continue to be harassed, stalked, bullied.
00:32:47
Speaker
Like the fact that they were like, no, I'm going to... and Like that that part was baffling to me like at that point. I feel like yes I would want answers with my hypothetical child.
00:33:02
Speaker
sure But my bigger concern would be the like safety and mental health of that child like any for everyone has a breaking point particularly hormonal teenagers. Yeah.
00:33:14
Speaker
And you are risking this for your satisfaction of knowing who it was and quote brought to justice.
00:33:27
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I, I certainly understand why Lauren's mom didn't think changing the phone number would matter. um yeah but Owen's family, I don't understand.
00:33:40
Speaker
Um, Even Kendra, though, says at some point during the documentary that it would have made more sense to just take Lauren's phone away from her than to impersonate a catfisher for two years, which for sure.
00:33:55
Speaker
Yeah. But if it was like a truly an anonymous person, like I guess the concern with getting them a new phone number, I mean, try it once at least. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I didn't understand.
00:34:06
Speaker
Right. Like if it didn't work, then like, then we need a new, you have a bigger problem. Yeah. And you have a problem, but if it worked and it was like someone in some random country, just trying to like, I don't know, make chaos, but,
00:34:22
Speaker
then it would have fixed the problem. Like, I just don't understand that mentality. i agree. And it's like, they're 14. What does it even matter?
00:34:33
Speaker
This phone number. It's not like they've had this phone number for like, I've had the same phone number forever. So I would be so bummed to change it. I still would though in this situation, but it would be a bummer to change a phone number that I've had for like 20 years almost.
00:34:48
Speaker
But They've had it for, what, a year? Two years? Yeah. And the whole time you've been getting harassed. Owen yes ah what does i think about like his mom took his phone away for a period so she could go through stuff and like read messages.
00:35:06
Speaker
And he was like I didn't want them to take it. I fought it because only had it for a year. like like You're going to be okay. like you can't and You have a small town. Get the phone numbers again. You see them in school.
00:35:17
Speaker
Like... Who else are you talking to?
00:35:23
Speaker
I really didn't understand that either. i would have at least tried to change the phone number like once or twice before completely giving up on that idea. It's the same with blocking it. like They must have blocked the initial numbers. I know that they were creating spoof number... look ah Kendra, I'm saying they, like it's multiple unnamed catfishers, but just Kendra was creating like multiple spoof numbers because it wasn't always the same phone number.
00:35:46
Speaker
by I mean, you'd think that they would have blocked the first few. I feel like changing your phone number is the next thing that you do after blocking someone. Exactly. And I just and I think the other thing when it came to the parents of all of the other.
00:36:04
Speaker
Like kids that were being interviewed and accused, not necessarily even accused, like they interviewed other kids and things like that. hmm. And a lot of their – there was a lot of pushback on letting people look at the phones. And, like, even Owen's phone, it took for the – over a year for this to be happening, the FBI to do a search work to do a dump on his phone. Like, it wasn't, like, the initial – thing and i just remember like as a teenager my mom would have taken my phone so damn quick and gone through it to be like if you have if it's not you you have nothing to hide and would have like started like looking through it fact I'm all about protecting your kids but at the same time oh yeah my mom would have been like it's not you give me your phone I don't understand what the problem is like
00:36:59
Speaker
I can't even imagine like explaining the situation to my parents. Ugh. Just. Well, like, I know because we grew up when like The internet obviously started beforehand, but we kind of grew up when cyberbullying started and started to take life.
00:37:21
Speaker
And i remember there were periods when those spoofing apps became popular when I was in high school. And there were people that were getting texts from random people. And it was from people they knew because you could do it through this app that you downloaded on your phone.
00:37:36
Speaker
Yeah. And the same thing with like Formspring, if anybody remembers what that is. It's like you can anonymously put things up and some of it was horrible stuff that you would show. And like you just had to take it.
00:37:52
Speaker
And I think it was a shift kind of starting with our generation of – Before, if you got bullied in school, you had a safe place. You could go home. You could escape it for a decent ah like half of your day.
00:38:06
Speaker
Now, kids can't run away. why If you're getting bullied online... You can't, you can, but it's a lot harder to not go online, to not have a phone, to not live that way.
00:38:23
Speaker
And it's, it's a tough thing to kind of deal with and also track because before, if you're getting bullied in school, it's not a secret who's pushing you into a locker like versus these apps are very easy to make it seem like you're someone else hell there's apps out there that you can make it seem like it's coming from someone's number that you know and it sends a fake one from their phone number it's crazy what you can do now it's it's really true it's really really true and I think that
00:38:59
Speaker
cyber bullying it's the more connected you are to your phone like the more incessant it's going to be and for teenagers it's like such a vulnerable population and especially like these like covid and post covid kids that were so reliant on all of their technology and doing school at home and and i mean that that's how you socialize that's how you know people and social media is so important and we saw like little tiktoks and stuff that lauren had been making and Kendra had been attacking her not even just through text, but she was also getting like stuff on social media and it was all just her mother attacking her, but she didn't know that.
00:39:36
Speaker
So you would think that, oh, I don't fit in. My peers don't like me. There's someone who dislikes me this much. My boyfriend left me. Like it's just, it's, it's terrible situation that's happened. And I felt like Lauren, I mean, Owen felt trapped, but Lauren was even more trapped, like literally trapped. Yeah.
00:39:54
Speaker
Yeah. And so as we were kind of going, Kendra made a statement that I want your opinion on.
Kendra's Excuses and Denials
00:40:02
Speaker
um She kind of went on a little rant about that everybody breaks the law. She's just the one that got caught.
00:40:11
Speaker
And where i really enjoyed her justification on it because she's like, well, you know, there's people that drive while they're like intoxicated. Should they have done it? No. that But did they get caught? like I just did this and I'm just the one that got caught.
00:40:28
Speaker
And
00:40:30
Speaker
i was a little surprised. but Because she had her just all over the place. But this was one of them. ah And she took like zero accountability for anything. Zero.
00:40:43
Speaker
But like, and we'll go through a couple of the different point, like quote justification she said. But that was, that was the first one. And I think for me, the most,
00:40:55
Speaker
Astounding. And I just wanted your thoughts on like which. I think if most people drunk drove for two years, they would get caught. And if she had just sent like some terrible text messages to her daughter a few times, like no one would have cared or known.
00:41:15
Speaker
And it only became illegal because it was so like, that's not illegal. You know what I mean? Like you can text your kid shitty things. A crazy thing. I actually don't even know. Like you could probably, I don't think making a fake number and texting someone is illegal. You know what I mean? Like you can do that. It's weird, but every right to text Lauren, I mean the, the sexual stuff that she was sending to Lauren and Owen, obviously that's, that's a whole other thing that we could talk about, but just by itself, like, I guess some of the texts like Rosa level of being like very threatening, but just texting her crazy shit about how she looks anorexic.
00:41:53
Speaker
That's not illegal. It became illegal because you were harassing her for years and her boyfriend and other people and other kids at the school and created this whole thing. Like you created the crime.
00:42:08
Speaker
This is not a real, like this is not a normal crime that people get charged with. And it was because it was so bad and so often. and so that's one reason that her drunk driving analogy is really bad.
00:42:21
Speaker
also just not comparable crime wise. Yeah. Yeah. I like that you put out like if you did it consistently for two years, you probably would get caught. I think that's a good point. Yeah.
00:42:33
Speaker
I think so. i mean, her justifications made no sense. I mean, the one with like it wasn't me in the beginning and ah I just took it over because I didn't want it to get ignored and I wanted there to be consequences for that original catfisher. I wanted to catch them.
00:42:50
Speaker
ah thought that was her craziest excuse. Yeah. Yeah, i ah I wasn't me, but i hoped if I made it worse, would look into it like, I'm sorry.
00:43:00
Speaker
There's absolutely zero evidence anywhere that it's more than just her. ah Yeah, it's definitely just her. But even if it wasn't just her, that is like you saw that your daughter is so upset because she's getting these harassing texts that you sent her a lot of them.
00:43:19
Speaker
Like the first two weren't you, but the next 5,000 were you. And then on top of it, she was like, well, why i know my daughter, quote, so I know what to target her with.
00:43:31
Speaker
But then also when the interviewer was talking about
00:43:38
Speaker
Like if she was ever concerned that her daughter actually would listen to her because she was saying some very harmful things. And her response to it was that she knew her daughter. She was never scared she'd actually hurt herself because she was having conversations with her during that time.
00:43:57
Speaker
Like, screw you. Like, everyone has a breaking point, particularly teenagers. And I don't care how close you are with your parent. Nobody, not one teenager is 100% truthful with their parents.
00:44:10
Speaker
And second, most teenagers don't even know how they're feeling until they're actively in the emotion.
00:44:19
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And it's like, even if you know her, do you know her under this kind of extreme duress and harassment? Like, this is a new situation that she's in.
00:44:30
Speaker
So even if you know her, you don't know what this effect is going to be. And anybody can get really triggered and upset. And it's, yeah.
00:44:41
Speaker
And all hours of the day too. Like these texts were coming in 24 seven out 24 seven. So you have a kid but one o'clock in the morning by herself in her room, getting a text telling her to hurt herself.
00:44:55
Speaker
You're not sitting next to her You don't know how she's feeling. You don't know what she's going to do and tired. Cause she's not sleeping. She's exhausted. Like there's so many factors.
00:45:07
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, Yeah.
00:45:13
Speaker
It's I think that I mean, we we can get into the motivations, but I think she. Was making the text really bad so that Lauren would come to her about it, you know, and and be like, oh, well, see, I know her so well that she's going to talk to me about this.
00:45:30
Speaker
And so she's sending these like horrific things to see how like how Lauren comes to her with it. And I think that like it was like a self-feeding thing where it's like, see, I do know her.
00:45:43
Speaker
I knew she would come to me about this. It's like you're creating the situation for her to be upset about.
00:45:50
Speaker
thought it was also really... Yeah.
00:45:55
Speaker
Yeah, no, yeah I think it's just an astonishment. And then I think the last justification that was a big one was that she used during her statement when she was in court ah that she was suffering from resurfacing trauma and that was part of her behavior.
00:46:12
Speaker
hmm. Right. Right. Very convenient. She said that she had been sexually assaulted when she was 17. And seeing Lauren grow up and get a boyfriend was like very triggering for her.
00:46:29
Speaker
And I don't know if that's true or not. I think Hendra has a complicated relationship with the truth. I agree. And also what she said in the court that we saw, again, we didn't see the whole thing, but she just said trauma and abuse.
00:46:49
Speaker
like And then in the documentary is when she mentioned the specific incident that she, quote, was referring to. And I think that's telling because why would you be more specific after the fact than something that could potentially have kept you out of prison?
00:47:12
Speaker
h I don't know. Or lowered your... yourself like She was going to prison, but like it could have potentially lowered her sentence. Because even the the attorneys were like, they definitely leaned on the harder harsher side of things. She ended up um pleading guilty to two counts in March 23 serving months in prison.
00:47:34
Speaker
Like, but again, if you had the chance of serving less time in prison, why wouldn't you bring up all these super traumatic things then at sentencing?
00:47:48
Speaker
So I don't know if maybe she said more things in court or to her lawyers or whatever, um or if that was part of the ah plea anyway. But think it's also just like pretty convenient, you know, and I think she's had some time to think about it and come up with the best version of this story because I'm sure people do ask about it and she probably does have to explain and justify this as much as she can often so i think it's maybe a better story it's still not great it's still bad logic obviously but it's like well she did go some through something really awful so maybe it's like maybe we'll blame her like one percent less or something
00:48:32
Speaker
But I don't know if that's necessarily true or even related. Even if it was true, I don't know if she really necessarily connected that that was part of the problem. I think it's just a convenient thing to say now.
00:48:46
Speaker
Oh, 100%. I think we see that a lot after the fact. There's always yet another excuse. Sure. Sure.
00:48:57
Speaker
yeah But i think there's also that after effect kind of towards the end when they kind of zoned in on Kendra's behaviors towards...
00:49:09
Speaker
Owen, because, so they offered two different explanations. They offered Munchausen's for her behavior, and then that was from the superintendent. And then they offered that she, like, was obsessed with Owen, which was Owen's, like, his and his parents' kind of opinion.
00:49:28
Speaker
um And it is interesting that these two options happened. And very convenient, you start having all of these... like examples of how she's obsessed with your child after the fact like you never thought any of these were weird before you found out that she was sending these Like you didn't find it was weird that she was going to his sports games before. you didn't find it was weird that he, checked she checked in on him before. Why is it weird now? Like, don't get me wrong. Like it, it makes it weird, but like they were giving examples. Some of them like her going to the football game or sports games after the kids broke up.
00:50:11
Speaker
Yes. That's weird. But you were also friends with, the mom you knew other people there like I you gotta wonder is like was her daughter there and she drove her and then that's why she was there like like it's very it's on how you present things right Sure.
00:50:34
Speaker
i mean, it's Kendra, I think presented as someone who was just like overly involved, but that's not necessarily like a bad, terrible thing. um and Lauren was Lauren's an only child and she's very athletic and her boyfriend's very athletic. And I think that Owen's parents who met and were dating since the seventh grade as well, actually, um they maybe thought, oh, well, you know, it's possible that Lauren and Owen will go the distance. So maybe we should get like really involved with the Licaris and, you know, we could be all best friends and, you know have have fun family events together. And I think that...
00:51:19
Speaker
they I think that Kendra was a little bit of an outsider too, it seemed like, in the town. like Her husband was from the area, but he wasn't part of the in-crowd necessarily. And Kendra was not from the area. And it's such a small town that people go way back and she doesn't.
00:51:40
Speaker
So I think that they maybe just thought that she wanted friends and wanted community. And it's not that weird. But looking at it now, of course, it seems really weird. I thought that it seemed very weird that Kendra would make personalized gifts for Owen with like pictures of him and Lauren.
00:52:00
Speaker
She made him a phone case, like a blanket with pictures of Owen and Lauren on it. think that's very bizarre. And I would think that was really creepy if I was his mom. I think that's a regional thing, though, because I know people who grew up not in like that same area, but that kind of geographical region.
00:52:21
Speaker
and they did the same thing with their high school. Like their mom parents would get them gifts of like them in their high school. Like they did full on photo shoots. They did holidays together at like 14.
00:52:35
Speaker
Like I think part of it we have to remember as a regional thing. where in these small towns they do get together earlier they do settle down earlier they it's it is because we grew up in the northeast where it's like you'll do it when you do like you get to it when you get to it kind of thing yeah And yes I think there's that aspect to it.
00:52:57
Speaker
But i do agree. Like, and it's all ah app like but hindsight's twenty twenty when you have this woman, this grown woman making these statements, very vulgar statements about a teenage boy.
00:53:13
Speaker
All every little thing is going to what felt normal and regular then is now going to feel weird. And I think that's what a lot of it is. For sure. It's it's looking back on everything.
00:53:25
Speaker
With this taint of what was really going on. And also all of the conversations that you know Owen's mom Jill was having with Kendra all the time because they were leading the charge in the investigation.
00:53:37
Speaker
and I'm sure they were constantly talking about this. And just for her to think back on how crazy all of those conversations are, knowing that Kendra's behind it the whole time, it would just taint everything. Every football game, every baseball game that they sat together and chatted about this catfisher is, it's completely different now.
00:54:00
Speaker
Right. Yeah. This Well, I think the last thing we should just mention before some final thoughts is while – and this is where i do get a little worried about Lauren – is she talked to her mom the entire time she was in prison, twice a week.
00:54:20
Speaker
She sent her emails. Lauren's mom is out, Miss Kendra, and they are not allowed to have – they can't see each other ever since she's been out. But Lauren does, like, hold hope that she can have a relationship with her mom.
00:54:35
Speaker
She doesn't necessarily know if she could, quote, trust her, but she still wants to have that relationship. And I think that's a that's concerning to me. um i think her dad is has stepped up and kind of working on making sure his daughter gets the help that she needs.
00:54:53
Speaker
And I don't think her dad would allow her to get that contact without certain protections and measures in place. But again, she's getting older. She's going to turn 18. And then after that, there's only so much dad can do.
00:55:07
Speaker
ah And if she mom's capable of this at 13, 14, it worries me what she's capable of with a grown adult where there's less protection, to be honest.
00:55:23
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that's true. i mean, at the time of the documentary, Lauren was not 18 yet, but at the time of this recording, she is 18. So it would be interesting to know if, if and when she's going to start having significant contact with Kendra again and how that's going to go.
00:55:43
Speaker
and I hope that, you know, Lauren's in a ton of therapy to help her kind of cope with this. And, It's so tough because you want to like on one hand, it's it's like obviously cut her off. Never speak to her again. This is such a crazy betrayal and terrible abuse that was inflicted upon you by her. She's basically taking no accountability for it. She did go to prison.
00:56:08
Speaker
But I don't, at least for me, she's not demonstrated sufficient remorse and there never is going to be a good explanation for why she did this.
00:56:18
Speaker
So I just, to me, it doesn't seem possible that they could really have a normal functional relationship after this, but it's, it's very hard to cut off a parent and
00:56:34
Speaker
They did have a ah very close bond, even though it was built on a lot of lies and manipulation. For Lauren, I'm sure this is, and she says, this is a gaping hole in her life.
00:56:46
Speaker
And i think if she's not involved with her at all with Kendra at all, then it's going to be an unanswered question and also just another thing to grieve and lose.
00:56:57
Speaker
So ah wouldn't be surprised if they had some contact
00:57:07
Speaker
Yeah, I just I i hope as time goes on, she gets some perspective. I don't think anybody wants to lose their mom. And like, particularly when you had a good childhood, you have so many good memories.
00:57:22
Speaker
And it's easy to kind of justify that. there's a lot of harm that others have gone through. Like when you put it into categories, I think a lot of people would be like, well, physical abuse is worse than cyber abuse.
00:57:40
Speaker
And you can kind of talk your way out of it, but she deserves to live a healthy and happy life and not be having that fear of like, i what can I tell my mom when I can't?
00:57:54
Speaker
And I hope she puts in protections that or just ways to help her cope with therapy or support persons around whatever the case is to, if she's going to maintain that relationship, do it the best she can.
00:58:13
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. i do want to talk about Kendra's motives and like what you think the reason for all of this was.
Motivations: Jealousy and Narcissism?
00:58:26
Speaker
If you have like a over like a overriding theory, I know in the documentary they mentioned Munchausen by proxy. and that now this is some sort of Internet version of that, that she was trying to create a situation.
00:58:41
Speaker
eyes you get a so ah strongly disagree with Munchausen's mostly just because i don't think it had anything to do with her daughter. I think it had everything to do with her and getting some kind of like satisfaction. I think if we eventually or she one day does some kind of interview, the more people you pull from her past, the more people you're going to see that this is consistent behavior, that she's done this with different people. Yeah.
00:59:13
Speaker
They did bring her cousin into the end of the documentary and her cousin made an accusation that she suspects that even the last 10 years of their life with her husband was a lie.
00:59:26
Speaker
So I think with Munchausen, like you get fixated on... a person that you're helping. I think if we dig into her, this is going to be a more narcissistic personality where she will have a pattern of doing different kinds of things.
00:59:43
Speaker
Because I also think your justification of other, everyone breaks the law, I just got caught, would not have been one of your first things to say if you hadn't done things in the past that you didn't get caught for.
00:59:58
Speaker
That's a good point. I also kind of lean narcissistic mostly. I think she was very jealous of Lauren. um Yeah. Yeah. I think also because I agree I don't I don't buy the Munchausen by proxy because for for me and for my understanding of that situation is it's for attention primarily and for recognition of being a great caregiver like there's there's motivations behind that that don't really apply in this case because it was done
01:00:32
Speaker
in secrecy and kendra went she didn't want anyone to know to not be associated with this like ah so i mean that's just that's just not the case with any of the munchausen by proxy things that i've seen um where they're more than happy to take all of the credit this i don't think she was doing it for attention i think that she was doing it because she's jealous of lauren resents her But also i think that she had a major sexual attraction to Owen.
01:01:02
Speaker
And I don't know if it really had anything to do with Owen specifically, but I think that also could come, ah come through the jealousy and the competitiveness. And as sad as it is, there are a lot of people that compete with their kids and mothers and daughters can have complex relationships where if Kendra,
01:01:21
Speaker
you know, feels unfulfilled in her life or is so narcissistic that everything revolves around her. Then Lauren excelling in any areas or getting things that Kendra perceives that she did not get, you could see how this how that could lead to this, where Kendra is isolating Lauren, being super mean to her, and causing her to lose a lot of the things that she was jealous of in the first place.
01:01:53
Speaker
I do think maybe, though, she also had an attraction to Owen.
01:02:00
Speaker
Yeah, I am on board with the jealousy of the kid thing. i i could see how we could get to attraction to Owen, but i also wonder like if...
01:02:19
Speaker
I don't know because the attraction Owen thing really brings in that other random girl. But I also think that that could have because it wasn't a lot like she didn't keep going with it. Like there were two or three texts.
01:02:35
Speaker
I think that was part of the facade. ah I don't know if it really was Owen as much as. the control, having control over his life or having control over the daughter's life.
01:02:50
Speaker
um I mean, i I could see how we could get to the attraction on Owen. I just, i don't know I'm sold fully on it. So I don't think it really had anything to do but with Owen specifically.
01:03:04
Speaker
Like, I feel like everybody was acting like Owen was, like, the most... Like, the best-looking, the coolest guy ever. i didn't really get that vibe from him, but whatever. um Kendra, I think, would have...
01:03:18
Speaker
been infatuated with anybody that Lauren brought home. And that also yeah concerns me for the future. If they do have a relationship, like, is this, is she going to continue to be really inappropriate with and about your boyfriends?
01:03:33
Speaker
Like even when you're an adult, because that's kind of the vibe I would get more than it. It doesn't really have to do with Owen specifically. It's more of,
01:03:46
Speaker
wanting to be better than her daughter and competing with her and trying to take what she has. And look, I'm still young and hot and better than her in every way, basically. Yeah.
01:04:05
Speaker
yeah Yeah. It'll be interesting if in a couple of years we get ah another documentary. Yeah, I mean, i think that they should make like a Hulu version or something too, because I like the Netflix one, but they should do maybe like a longer, like multi-part thing.
01:04:22
Speaker
I would, I mean, i would just love To know how Kendra filled all of her days while she was pretending to work. I think a lot of it, she was parked at the school um trying to use the IP address there, texting the kids while they were at school. so it looked like the texts were coming from the school.
01:04:41
Speaker
But even if you're sending 100 text messages a day, that's still not going to fill up your... eight hour work day and your commute and whatever else so I feel like there's a lot of other kind of to your point before where it's like oh there's other things that she's probably just not gotten caught for I feel like there was a lot of other things happening who knows what Kendra was up to all day yeah we'll never know maybe but probably not you can't believe anything she says anyway
01:05:13
Speaker
Yeah. Well, those were our made my major ones. Do you have any final thoughts? I feel like we covered it all.
01:05:24
Speaker
Yeah, I'd agree. um I just hope. um No, my last thought is go go dad because I don't get to say that very much on this show. Go, Dad. dad good Dad, he did a great job.
01:05:37
Speaker
Yeah. I was happy to see them, like, hugging and fishing together or whatever at the end and wearing their camo outfits and stuff together. Like, I thought yeah it was nice to see
Conclusion: Impact and Reflection
01:05:48
Speaker
that. Because she needs she needs a good normal parent for sure. Yeah.
01:05:54
Speaker
So I think that would be my last thought. I like that as a last thought. I'm going to... How often do we get to praise the men? i know. I mean, it probably won't ever happen again. So we should take this opportunity.
01:06:07
Speaker
Go dad. yeah Leave that woman. put her Put her in prison because honestly, what a monster. I don't think she had enough time also. That's my final thought. She'll be back.
01:06:19
Speaker
she yes She'll be back in prison for sure. Good point. right. Well, we're going to pick up right back here next week with our next mother. Have a good one.