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Lacey Spears
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This week on the Mothers of All Crime we are talking about Lacey Spears. Lacey Spears was a young mommy blogger who portrayed the perfect life online — sharing heartfelt posts about her son Garnett’s constant health struggles and their unbreakable bond. But behind the social media façade was a dark and disturbing truth. In this episode, we dive into the chilling case of Lacey Spears, a woman whose need for attention may have led to the deliberate poisoning of her own child. We explore the signs of Munchausen syndrome by proxy, the digital trail she left behind, and the heartbreaking end to Garnett’s short life. Was it all for sympathy? Fame? Or something even more twisted? Join us as we uncover the layers of manipulation, illness, and deceit in one of the most shocking true crime cases of the digital age.
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
Episode Topic: Lacey Spears
00:00:56
Speaker
Welcome back to the Mothers of All Crime. This week we're going to be talking about Lacey Spears. How are we doing, Crystal? I'm good. How are you? Amazing. Amazing. I'm actually really excited to talk about this one. One of my favorite cases.
00:01:14
Speaker
Yeah. Sounds terrible. I'm not going to lie. i know, right? We always say that and then it sounds like very insensitive. It's interesting though. um I got to admit though, every time I hear her name, i instantly think of like Brittany and Jamie and I got to remind myself that they're not the same people.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah. Brittany and Jamie Lynn really don't have much to do with this at all. No. My brain every time goes straight to them. And I'm like, I swear they're not related, but my brain really wants them to be. yeah I mean, she sounds like the name sounds similar enough that she could be like the third Spears sister, you know, like yeah Brittany, Jamie Lynn, Lacey. Those names do go together. And it is spelled the same in the last name.
00:02:01
Speaker
yeah So I could see the confusion. But this Lacey Spears of no relation yeah the famous Spears family. Thank goodness. That family has enough going on.
00:02:15
Speaker
They do. They do. They always have a lot of things going on. I feel like maybe we should do a Free Britney episode at some point. and That would be a good one. Both my sisters have different Might be interesting.
00:02:27
Speaker
Ooh, yeah, true. I would actually. all right. So all three sisters have a lot going on. Today we're going to talk about the least famous Spears sister, Lacey.
00:02:40
Speaker
um So I'm just going to talk about Lacey a little bit.
Lacey Spears' Backstory and Online Presence
00:02:44
Speaker
you know, we're going to set the scene here. So in 1987, Lacey Spears was born in Alabama.
00:02:52
Speaker
She had a relatively normal upbringing. And in 2008, she had a baby boy named Garnett Paul Spears.
00:03:05
Speaker
And shortly after his birth, Garnett was having a lot of medical issues. He was suffering with extreme dehydration.
00:03:18
Speaker
he had trouble eating. He needed a feeding tube. By the time he was nine months old, he had a Nissen fundoplication, which is a surgery for people with GERD and other kinds of gastrointestinal issues.
00:03:35
Speaker
And essentially prevents someone from being able to throw up. That's what that surgery does. So he has a G-tube, which means he can be fed all liquid diet.
00:03:48
Speaker
And, you know poor little Garnett is in and out of the hospital. And Lacey is posting every minute of it online. She had a blog on Facebook, on Twitter, sharing every detail of this.
00:04:03
Speaker
In addition to sharing a lot of details about Garnett's father, Blake, who tragically died in the line of duty or a car accident, depending on the version.
00:04:18
Speaker
And Lacey made a lot of Facebook and Twitter posts about Garnett's illnesses and about Blake's tragic demise.
00:04:28
Speaker
um so i think for all the world this looked like a single mother of a very sick very special needs child who had tragically lost his father and they were just trying to make it in the world and trying to fight for a diagnosis so that's kind of the the background and it's also important to mention that lacy moved around a lot like i said she was born in alabama but She lived in Florida for a while, not in one place very long.
00:05:01
Speaker
And um she eventually settled in New York and lived among. It's not a cult where she was living. It's a fellowship.
00:05:13
Speaker
It's a community living system in upstate New York.
Life in New York and Online Connections
00:05:18
Speaker
called The Fellowship, where there's a lot of focus on education for children and eating all organic food and um taking care of the elderly.
00:05:30
Speaker
And in exchange for working at The Fellowship, taking care of old people, cleaning, gardening, you get free room and board. And most importantly to Lacey, Garnett got a free education at a wonderful school,
00:05:46
Speaker
that shared a lot of her values. So at the time of Garnett getting hospitalized again, that's where they're living. They're living in upstate New York in the fellowship.
00:05:59
Speaker
And he is and active, happy kid who talks to everybody, is extremely verbose and polite. and seems like everybody really likes him at the fellowship. um And all of Lacey's friends are closely watching online.
00:06:16
Speaker
so Yeah, and I think it's also important to know here, she did have him on the younger side. um She had Garnett in about 21, I think, if my math is right.
00:06:27
Speaker
Yeah. yeah which It doesn't – I'm foreshadowing. It doesn't excuse anything. However, dealing with a child by yourself at a younger age does present some different challenges than it would be if you were in your 30s with a developed career and things like that. – I think that kind of added to her portrayal.
00:06:54
Speaker
So she not only was a single mom, the father of her child tragically passed away. So ah you have that emotional side. You have, I'm a young mom, so you have that angle. You have her son having special needs. like There was a lot of moving parts and she could connect online to a lot of people, which I think is why her name became known online during that time when she was doing the blog and all that.
00:07:24
Speaker
Yes. um And this this went on for years, you know, and it she had multiple pages with multiple different focuses and people would comment and respond. And I think that, you know, by all accounts, she definitely enjoyed the attention.
00:07:42
Speaker
um But certain people were blocked from her pages and not included in her pages. And one of those reasons is likely that this... tragedy with Garnett's father, Blake, is that he never actually existed.
00:07:58
Speaker
And Lacey had actually intentionally got pregnant with a neighbor who was named Chris Hill and was never involved in Garnett's life. um But...
00:08:11
Speaker
It was very important Lacey to protect Garnett and have this story of his father tragically dying and that's why he's not in his life. She would tell him that his father became an owl after he got to heaven and so anytime they saw an owl or an owl figurine, it was his father watching over him.
00:08:30
Speaker
So that was ah deception on Lacey's social media, but a very prevalent theme, could say. Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm hmm.
Garnett's Medical Crisis
00:08:42
Speaker
Yes. So little Garnett in we're now going to be up to 2014 where Garnett is five years old and he still has ah G tube.
00:08:56
Speaker
um And so he can be tube fed. And Lacey had told some people that Garnett also had a port for IV access and cochlear implant, but it doesn't seem like anyone has no seen those and there are no photographs of those existing and they are not in any of Garnett's medical records.
00:09:18
Speaker
But... That was common story as well. um So in 2014, Lacey brought Garnett the Nyack Hospital in New York, claiming he had seizures and vomiting.
00:09:34
Speaker
So his behavior was abnormal. He was grabbing his head. He was screaming in pain. And his sodium levels were very high.
00:09:47
Speaker
Which is not something you hear very often. Like it's not. It's not. Because you hear like cholesterol or so like blood pressure. You hear things like that high often. Because it's I don't want to say it's normal, but it's not abnormal.
00:10:05
Speaker
But things like sodium is definitely not, and particularly with such a young child, it throw a lot of flags up for me of like how does that happen?
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah. And that's a question that's been asked before Garnett's life when he was a baby. he apparently had a sodium level of over 200, which is insanely lethally high.
00:10:34
Speaker
And most people would have severe brain damage as a result of having a sodium level that high. He had it as an infant and then recovered and no cause was ever really identified.
00:10:46
Speaker
And Lacey brought this up when he was hospitalized with the seizures and stuff, saying that as a baby, he had had a very high sodium level. And a lot of the doctors were, double took and said, are you sure he didn't have a blood glucose of 200? He didn't have, like you said, cholesterol of 200, even though that would also be very abnormal in a baby. But there are severe types of diabetes where people's blood glucose shoots up very high and very small children can have type one diabetes.
00:11:16
Speaker
So that was something that was being persistently asked. But his glucose levels were all normal in 2014 when he was at this hospital because they did run a lot of blood tests upon his admission and several times throughout his stay.
00:11:29
Speaker
And the only thing that was severely out of range was the sodium.
00:11:36
Speaker
So he had very high sodium. Again. And I think, where did I find, like, the normal levels were so drastically different.
00:11:50
Speaker
Because I also have record of, like, 144 to to Yeah, here it is Normal sodium levels is one thirty five to one forty five and and like you said up to he was one eighty s two hundred like Crazy high.
00:12:09
Speaker
Deadly high. Incompatible with life high. And yeah, so his sodium was up to 182 at the point that he was transferred to a better hospital because he was continuing to have seizures, continuing to have symptoms.
00:12:28
Speaker
They were not able to manage his seizures with medication. They were persistent. And so he ended up being transferred to another hospital and he ended up on life support and his sodium level, that's when his sodium levels were at 182, which the doctors identified.
00:12:49
Speaker
And the plan was to slowly lower these sodium levels because it's very important to very slowly and very methodically reduce sodium back to zero.
00:13:01
Speaker
Because if you do it too quickly, it can cause brain damage because the brain will swell in response to hydration after so much sodium being in the system.
00:13:12
Speaker
So they calculated down to the milliliter of what timeline would be necessary for Garnett to return to a normal, safe range of sodium.
00:13:23
Speaker
So he is on very strict NPO orders, which means nothing by mouth. No food, no water, no nothing. And he's on life support, but he starts to recover.
00:13:37
Speaker
Lacey initially did not want him to be taken off of life support and have the vent removed because she was worried he would be uncomfortable. But as Garnett started to improve and started to be able to communicate by nodding and moving his hands and he just was seeming so much better,
00:13:56
Speaker
The doctors really insisted and he was taken off of life support and was put back in a regular hospital room and was just recovering with a saline drip as he slowly had his sodium returning to normal.
00:14:09
Speaker
And by all accounts, he was doing much, much better. And listen, him like I can understand from a mom's perspective of the fear that like being taken off could – because you up until this point you had all this traumatic battle with the sodium and all that, the unknown reasoning – And if you have a doctor back, right, we're going to take it off.
00:14:33
Speaker
I can see the fear of like, but what if it comes back? What if he's on ah uncomfortable? What if he's in pain? Like I can see the concern. But at the same time, like when you're in a hospital and he had been sent to like special it, like he was being so focused on yeah and That he was put in the best hospital that he could be.
00:14:54
Speaker
Like, you at some point, you have to trust the fact that these people, this is what they do for a living. You have to trust their advice. They are the doctors. So I can see the fear at the beginning, but i I'm glad also the doctors were like, no, we're doing it anyway. like Yeah.
00:15:13
Speaker
I mean, it's very uncomfortable to be conscious and have a ventilator. breathing for you to have a tube down your throat breathing for you while you are fully conscious and capable of breathing and also from that age is super scary super scary yeah those are a lot of machines and not totally being able to like cognitively understand what's happening it's scary for grown adults let alone ah small child
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. so after garnet was... more stable. He was left in the care of his mother and to supervise him and to make sure that he was still doing okay. And she had an emergency call button in case she needed a nurse immediately, and needed a doctor immediately.
00:16:03
Speaker
um and unfortunately Garnett started to seize again. And this was, terribly unfortunate timing.
00:16:16
Speaker
And ah code was called to the room because Garnett had gone limp and he wasn't able to breathe. And he didn't, you know, it was very, very dire situation. And so one of the doctors treating him ran back into the room and saw an empty water bottle under Garnett's bed and kind of freaked out thinking, was Garnett given water against my strict NPO orders?
00:16:44
Speaker
If he had that water, he will have irreversible brain damage, was the fear of the doctor. And they are quickly working to stabilize him. He ends up on full life support, and they start a series of tests to see the extent of the brain damage.
00:17:01
Speaker
And everyone's wondering, is this ah delayed reaction to having such a high sodium level? Was water somehow introduced into his system? Does he have some sort of terrible genetic condition that's going just continue to plague him?
00:17:15
Speaker
And these seizures are inevitable? Yeah. um so Garnett is laying there completely unresponsive being kept alive by machines his pupils were totally blown and dilated and they started doing a series of tests and unfortunately Garnett was considered was called to be brain dead it's just so sad a baby it's really sad he was a baby like I understand she like was five but he's a baby
00:17:49
Speaker
That's a baby. And he seemed like such a great kid and just so full of life and joy and wonder. And it's really sad. And, you know, he would tell anybody that would listen that he really wants to be he really wanted to be a daddy someday, which I think is so cute. That is cute.
00:18:08
Speaker
I will say like kids are so resilient because you see the pictures that are posted of him. Cause like you said, like she documented a lot of things. He had all kinds of tubes and bandages and all these things, and but yet he's smiling in so many of them. He's playing. He would talk to people. Like he was a very resilient little boy.
00:18:34
Speaker
And I think we see that a lot with the kids that we talk about where, considering everything that they're going through, they're still trying to see the best and have, be as happy as they can. So I thought that was really, was sweet looking at pictures of him over those years.
00:18:53
Speaker
Yeah. And even over those days where he was on a ventilator and brain dead, there are a lot of pictures going on social media at that time. Floods of posts from Lacey, which very disturbing images.
00:19:08
Speaker
First of all, disturbing images. Second of all, i can't grasp at the idea of my child, my baby, my only baby is in the hospital, brain dead.
00:19:25
Speaker
Hold on. Let me make a Facebook post.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah. Really, really hard to imagine. um Lacey seemed to have kind of strange reactions to being told initially that Garnett was suspected to be brain dead.
Suspicion and Investigation
00:19:48
Speaker
Um, but when it was official, Lacey was, Absolutely inconsolable, screaming, falling to her knees on the floor, pounding her fists on the floor to the point where Lacey's mother had to calm her down and say, I'm so sorry for what you're going through, but your child is going to die and you need to be with us.
00:20:13
Speaker
Because she was just, you know, carrying on in the hallway in agony, I'm sure, but It's not really about Lacey at that point because Garnett was still... Right. His vessel was here.
00:20:31
Speaker
glad her mom at least said that, you know, because... Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:38
Speaker
So the doctors caring for Garnett were devastated. In addition to everybody that knew him outside of that... the fellowship, Lacey's friends and family, everybody absolutely devastated.
00:20:51
Speaker
um The doctors also. And Garnett is, you know, going to get an autopsy. And but while he is still being kept on life support, because they did keep him on for a little bit because they were prepping him for organ donation prior to removing all of the machines and doing an autopsy.
00:21:13
Speaker
And there was some suspicion among the doctors that this acute sodium poisoning is very suspicious. And there really is no medical explanation for why a child with no other apparent risk factors would spike such a high sodium level.
00:21:37
Speaker
And then there's also the water bottle that raised a lot of concerns. Yes. So the doctors flat out tell Lacey that they're calling Child Protective Services and they're going to have to look into this because it's an unexplained death.
00:21:51
Speaker
So they're going to have to involve the police. They're going have to involve child protection because this is unexplained death. Even though it's occurred in a hospital, it still falls under the umbrella of needing to be investigated further.
00:22:06
Speaker
and Which I'm glad that rule exists. Yeah, for sure. It's a good rule.
00:22:14
Speaker
Definitely. Because just because somebody died in a hospital doesn't mean it it's all necessarily above board. I mean, hospitals also make mistakes. And sometimes that needs to be looked into. Right. And that's certainly what Lacey was saying initially and now as well, that the hospital had made some sort of error and it didn't make sense. And then she had tried to warn them about the sodium but that he had had as a baby. And she was very, very defensive, as I think a lot of people would be in the same circumstance.
00:22:45
Speaker
Right. Right. And also when it comes to like the word child protective services, i think any person gets defensive because the known response of that is the parent hurt the child.
00:23:01
Speaker
So regardless, i think in this circumstance, it was more of a like, that's just the entity that handles those because it was a child, not necessarily of like allegations of abuse. Right.
00:23:12
Speaker
But I don't think the norm in the general population understand that they have their umbrella over other categories of death and abuse and et cetera.
00:23:28
Speaker
Definitely. I mean, it's not a good thing for CPS to be called, for sure. and The family was processing a lot at that time and it was a, you know, completely tragic circumstance that they were in already. And then now we're bringing in another level of an investigation.
00:23:47
Speaker
um And perhaps in response to that, Lacey made a call to a friend asking her to go to her home she um throw away the feeding bags for the G-tube that Garnett had that were still at the house because apparently there were still some that were mixed up that had not been used and clearly they're not going to be used now. So Lacey had called a friend and asked her to dispose of them and not mention it to anybody.
00:24:21
Speaker
That friend ended up feeling kind of uncomfortable with that well yeah
00:24:29
Speaker
that. Something in her felt uncomfortable. So she ended up taking the feeding bags out of the house and then just sealing them in a box and storing them and just telling Lacey that she got rid of them just in case...
00:24:44
Speaker
they were ever needed basically. um And while this is going on, they realize that when Garnett was getting EEGs, there's also a video component and they were able to review the footage.
00:25:03
Speaker
And there's two instances where Lacey takes Garnett and his feeding tube into the bathroom and that's that's going to be pretty important later and it becomes a bigger deal too when the friend of lacy admits to taking the feeding bag and getting it tested and there are large amounts of sodium in it table salt table salt
00:25:37
Speaker
I also think that a lot of people forget that there are cameras everywhere in a hospital. Because I know – like even speaking for myself, if I go into a hospital for treatment or emergency or whatever the case is, visiting someone, that doesn't even register to me and I look at security cameras on a regular basis for work.
00:26:01
Speaker
Like I – So if I'm completely just falls out of my brain, I think the general person doesn't go into a hospital and then remembers everything you're doing is on camera.
00:26:18
Speaker
I mean, I work in a hospital and I almost never think about the cameras. Right. Right.
00:26:25
Speaker
To be fair though, usually in patient rooms, exam rooms, and bathrooms, there are not cameras. They're usually in hallways and stairwells, things like that, elevators, ah parking garages, cafeteria, stuff like that.
00:26:40
Speaker
yeah But certain tests that you get done in a hospital, especially EEGs, there is a video component. So on the in the actual room, they were being recorded. and And we couldn't see what happened in the bathroom and no one will ever know 100% what happened in the bathroom.
00:26:57
Speaker
But the hypothesis is that the reason Garnett had such severe hypernatrinia, which is sodium poisoning, is because Lacey had been putting it in his G-tube and directly feeding it So he was not swallowing it.
00:27:15
Speaker
And also because of his previous surgery, he is not able to vomit it out because that is what most people would do if they had ah large amount of table salt in their belly is they would be throwing up profusely. But he is unable to throw up.
00:27:31
Speaker
So that is pretty much the theory.
Legal Proceedings and Trial
00:27:35
Speaker
and It results with Lacey being charged with second degree murder and first degree manslaughter.
00:27:46
Speaker
How things escalate so quickly. Very quickly. This all happens very quickly. i mean, he passes away in January and in March she's being charged.
00:27:58
Speaker
She had kind of gone away with her family in the meantime and gone to Florida with them. Her mother had also gotten very sick with cancer and ended up passing away quickly. it was a terrible year for the Spears family.
00:28:13
Speaker
um But within a couple of months of Garnett's passing, Lacey was charged with his murder. which she completely denies.
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah. I will say though, too, if from a ah murder trials, particularly if you are, if the death and the murder that happened that close together, there's gotta be a lot of evidence for them to jump on that, that quickly.
00:28:40
Speaker
Normally those are cases that take a lot longer because they're gaffling evidence or doing that investigation x y and Z. That's a really short time.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. Lacey's sister and father and grandparents completely back her and support her. But a lot of her friends told a different story and were willing to testify against her, saying that there were a lot of inconsistencies.
00:29:10
Speaker
in the way that Lacey print presented Garnett's symptoms and what actually was going on in real life. And there was periods of time where Garnett was supposedly in the ICU, but actually he was just on vacation in Florida.
00:29:25
Speaker
There were just a lot of things not adding up. And you know lifelong friends were coming out of the woodwork to say, oh, I thought Blake was Garnett's father. I've never heard of Chris Hill, his actual father. And in the meantime, um people are saying that Lacey said that she actually had other children that had passed away. And sometimes these are late term miscarriages and sometimes they are in infant babies.
00:29:52
Speaker
But she's just had a lot of tragic circumstances that don't all seem to fit together. Yeah. And this is all coming out in trial. And it's it ends up leaving the impression that Lacey suffers from which I'm always struggling if that's the way to say it for this particular situation. if she suffers from factitious disorder imposed on another, which used to be called Munchausen syndrome. Diagnosed with.
00:30:26
Speaker
So it's what people think. It's the theory. by and it's certainly what the judge said in court and what lawyers were saying in court.
00:30:42
Speaker
But I don't know if she's actually been... psychologically assessed and been diagnosed with factosis disorder and pose on another. It just seems to be like the theory because even in more recent times, Lacey has said that she was horrified that the judge said that or implied that and that it's the furthest thing from the truth.
00:31:04
Speaker
So, I mean, i feel like a diagnosis also doesn't feel like super, super fitting in this case. it I suppose it is an illness, but it's it's like a pattern of behavior as well.
00:31:17
Speaker
just feels like tricky verbiage. Yeah. And I do like that the... Judge really didn't give her any leeway either, though. He very much was, you are going to be accountable for your actions.
00:31:35
Speaker
However, with the Munchauser conversation, their i think that does impact her career.
00:31:47
Speaker
outcome of her case. I think they, the sentencing was a little different. um I will say at some, I did find, because there were multiple like reporters looking at this and things like that.
00:32:03
Speaker
And I don't know what the documentation is, but apparently when 48 Hours did their review of the case and did all their investigations, they were able to obtain documentation that led to people saying that she has Munchal and Zerbar proxy.
00:32:29
Speaker
So I don't know if that was a like confirmation because they worded it more of like revealing suspicion towards the diagnosis of.
00:32:41
Speaker
So again, like I don't know what they have. They didn't make it public that I could find. But at that point, I think we've talked about it in the past, getting officially diagnosed with that is not
00:32:55
Speaker
also the most reliable thing because I think it really just depends on the circumstance and it's so rare for it to be an official diagnosis.
00:33:05
Speaker
That's what I'm saying too. is like I feel like it's more of a motive and an explanation versus being a diagnosis because Lacey... despite presenting multiple versions of her life, was not crazy and was not delusional.
00:33:23
Speaker
She knew very well the whole time what she was doing and had carefully orchestrated her life in a way to present things the way that she wanted to, which is not...
00:33:34
Speaker
I suppose it could be a mental illness, but it certainly did not provide her any diminished capacity. And there was no pleas of insanity that were going to be coming through this.
00:33:45
Speaker
So whether it's a diagnosis or it's an explanation or and I kind of think it's a motive because it's ah it's a desperate need for attention is essentially what it it is Yeah. And I think it's also hard, and this is what the statement's going to be really sad, but when it comes to Munchauser and by proxy, I think the longer that it's happening, the more likely you're able to get a quote official diagnosis versus in this situation, she she only was doing it for four or five years at most. Yeah.
00:34:26
Speaker
Because when you look at other cases that have those more official diagnoses, they were falsifying documents. They were hiding information from doctors, multiple going to different doctors. playing like They were doing a lot of other things to get that sympathy and attention that you were talking about.
00:34:46
Speaker
Versus in this circumstance, she didn't really have the opportunity to do that because – her child ended up dying very early. And i don't I don't want that on, I don't wish that behavior on anybody, but I do think with that kind of diagnosis, it's harder to give that officially on such a short period of time. I could be wrong. That's complete speculation. i'm not a psychiatrist, but just looking at other cases, i think it's, it's hard to prove for four years.
00:35:28
Speaker
That may be. also really do wonder if she intentionally killed him or if it just escalated and she got carried away. but i don't think she knew what she was doing.
00:35:42
Speaker
Like, I don't think she realized how much salt is bad. Like, you know what i mean? Like, who knows that? I think it was just, okay. i She was Googling it. Googling it. She was Googling the amounts of salt to make someone – like she was – yeah, she was Googling it. Well, that's what – I'm just thinking like a drug addict, right? Like a drug addict. It's like I can do a little more. I can do a little more until you can't.
00:36:08
Speaker
And if you're Googling it, you have a starting point and you're like, okay, he was fine with that amount. All right, let's do a little bit more. Let's do a little bit more. I'm just kind of thinking from that addictive personality, addicted to the attention, addicted to what comes with having this sick son.
00:36:24
Speaker
Well, he was, he made it through this amount. What about this amount?
00:36:33
Speaker
That could definitely be. i also kind of think though that some, I don't know how to phrase this. Some children are probably easier to control with factitious disorder imposed on another.
00:36:48
Speaker
Like some kids are more susceptible perhaps to being controlled or some people are maybe better at controlling the kids. I think Garnett was getting really verbal and he was very social. And I think she worried possibly that he would tell someone what was going on, especially in the hospital when he was on life support and she didn't want him removed from the machines. i To me, that screams of if he gets the ventilator out, is he going to say he...
00:37:26
Speaker
that he like i wonder if he was starting to catch on to how sick he was with her. Maybe. Or if he just had no idea. Because the the going into the bathroom and doing the feeding tube thing in secret is extra weird.
00:37:42
Speaker
Well, if you're in a hospital, a nurse could walk into your room at any minute.
00:37:48
Speaker
I know, but I meant for Garnett. Like if he was aware that it was weird that she was doing that. Yeah, I totally see your point. And it really just kind of depends on the kid's personality, which unfortunately we don't know.
00:38:02
Speaker
But like it's very easy also at that age. Your mom is your primary understanding and your – yeah person Like if your mom's still going to be like, oh, no, this is just what we do, going to go, okay.
00:38:19
Speaker
Yeah. And unfortunately, a lot of kids only really – like I think figure it out when they're removed from their moms because they have a huge remission in all of their symptoms for one where they're just suddenly fine now after being so so sick for so long and Garnett never got that opportunity unfortunately he was always with Lacey he was never out of her custody And so maybe he didn't know, but he could eat also. So I think she may be worried on some level that she would lose control over his G-tube because there were multiple doctors prior to this last hospitalization saying that he probably didn't need the G-tube and that it seemed like whatever issue he had with food has resolved itself. Yeah.
00:39:09
Speaker
And so there were doctors pushing her to get feeding studies and maybe get the tube removed and she just wouldn't do it. She would say she would and then she just wouldn't.
00:39:20
Speaker
yeah And that's why I don't think she did it on purpose. I think it was an accident and she just pushed it too far personally.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think it it could be interpreted in multiple ways. Like maybe she was just so high off the attention of having a child on life support that she was immediately chasing that again and didn't want to get put back to a regular boring hospital room and wanted the drama.
00:39:55
Speaker
it could be either.
Sentencing and Prison Life
00:39:59
Speaker
But regardless, Lacey was found guilty and convicted. And in the sentencing, the judge that said that she clearly had Munchausen by proxy also said that he was going to be lenient on her sentencing.
00:40:16
Speaker
But she got 20 years to life. So it's not that lenient. I guess it's not 25 to life. Yeah, I think she's going to be eligible to get out when she's 46.
00:40:32
Speaker
Yeah. yeah To get onto parole. Yeah, she won't get out without supervision. It would be released onto parole. um But I did think it was interesting that the jury only deliberated for like two and a half days.
00:40:48
Speaker
It wasn't a long deliberation. It's not short, but...
00:40:55
Speaker
Yeah. They basically asked for a few definitions of different terminology, legal terminology, and then they pretty quickly came to a unanimous verdict. I think that the the videos with the feeding tubes and the salt found in the feeding tube at her house, I think those things together, it was just very strong circumstantial evidence.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah. And this is not a case for DNA. Yeah. No, there was really no question. ah But I did think it was interesting that you mentioned the judge was a little more lenient. And I saw a lot of things that like he took in consideration, her Munchausen, buth blah, blah, blah.
00:41:38
Speaker
But in the state of New York, second degree murder 15 25 years in life. To life. So like the minimum sentence is 15. The maximum you can get is 25 to life.
00:41:52
Speaker
She got 20. That's not really being lenient much at all. Yeah. I mean, I guess you – yeah. That's what thought too. First degree, which is life without – like you're never – there's no parole option.
00:42:08
Speaker
Manslaughter, which has less intent, so that wouldn't even qualify. But that's five to 25 years. And then second degree is supposed to be that like middle number. Again, 15 25 minimum. Right.
00:42:20
Speaker
minimum 20 is basically the max at that point because in my opinion, the chance of you going to jail and not having a single incident and getting out early if you're in there for 20 years is pretty slim.
00:42:33
Speaker
You could do it, I'm sure. But realistically, she's probably going to be there for 25. hope so. And...
00:42:41
Speaker
ah hope so and The other inmates hate her and she had a really tough adjustment. Of course they Of course they do. She's in a women's prison. They hate her.
00:42:53
Speaker
Prisons definitely... it It's comical to me where like it's like the old school like mafia rules, right? There certain things that are just off limits. In jail, you're considered lower.
00:43:06
Speaker
and anything that involves children, they just do not tolerate. So going to prison for killing your child, your baby child, yeah, that's not going to go over well.
00:43:20
Speaker
Yeah. I actually kind of found it a little... Funny might not be the right word, but when she first got to prison, she would be waiting in line for food and they would just put tons of salt packets on her food.
00:43:34
Speaker
like piles of salt packets. It's so petty and I love it. But here's the thing. prison Oh, yeah. But it's so funny how like they always say that you go to prison and like it shouldn't be communicated what your charges are unless you tell people no one should know what your charges are, which is such a lie. There are so many ways for it to be communicated and particularly like they have access to the outside world depending on the prison sometimes even the internet like this was a very viral case and if I was a lifer and I have someone new showing up during one of my phone calls I'm going be like hey can you google this person who are they why are they here it yeah or a CO could drop a hint or like there's ways to communicate things without verbalizing it so
00:44:25
Speaker
It was only a matter of time until everyone found out.
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah, and this had a lot of media attention. There was news reporters in the in the courtroom. It was all over the place. It was a big deal. And so, of course, people knew.
00:44:40
Speaker
And people also... Yeah.
00:44:47
Speaker
so people who had been there a while that had access to tv or had access to people on the outside or the prison had a college associated with it that she was at and so people that were in college classes at the prison had internet access they were able to use computers So yeah there's a million ways for people to find out. And I think word spreads really fast in that kind of situation. oh yeah. Everyone loves a little tea.
00:45:15
Speaker
Yeah. but She got put into a medium minimum security prison. It'll be interesting if they keep her at the same facility ah or if she gets moved to isolation for a period, like on and off.
00:45:29
Speaker
i mean she's been there for a couple years at this point. Yeah. But it'll be interesting if it continues to get the same attention.
00:45:38
Speaker
i would assume she's more or less adjusted for now. She was offered protective custody. But she would have been confined to a cell for 23 hours a day. And she felt like she would do better in gen pop.
00:45:53
Speaker
So I guess we'll see. But I don't I don't imagine that she's very popular in there. No. I mean, she'll she'll make a group eventually. um But I i do. I don't want to agree with her. However.
00:46:06
Speaker
If you're offered gen pop, if you're offered protection and it's not them forcing you to do it, I i probably wouldn't either because at that point you're like, listen, I got a long sentence.
00:46:18
Speaker
And if you start off in protective custody right away, you're never going to be able to adjust and start dealing with it versus just kind of facing it head on. Like if she had like a three-year stint,
00:46:33
Speaker
I could see be like, all right, I'll just go to protective custody. It's going to suck, but we'll tough it out. You can't do that for 20 years. And they're not going to keep you in protective custody for 20 years without very extreme circumstances. And she's not going to fall in that category.
00:46:52
Speaker
Like I think like Warren Jeffs falls in that category. She's not at that level.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think I would just, I mean, unless I was only going to be there for like a month, I think I would have to just try to endure general population because the 23 hours a day, i mean, do you have a phone for TikTok? Like if if I had TikTok, I could probably it.
00:47:20
Speaker
Then maybe. Probably definitely. It would be fine. But ah without that, I mean, i would need a lot of books. We'd have to stack the room up, but I'm sure it's limited and it's not like you have a whole catalog of books at your fingertips all the time. oh No, I couldn't do it.
00:47:39
Speaker
I would at least need to be able to people watch.
00:47:43
Speaker
No, it's definitely not a good time, but some people do it. And some people are forced to, and that's the difference too, right? yeah Like there are people in prison that are put into a protective custody because they just can't get along with others.
00:48:00
Speaker
And it's not really protective custody for them, but it's also the whole of punishment and things like that.
00:48:11
Speaker
Yeah. That makes sense. So... i I guess we'll see with Lacey and her appeals and her parole, but I think it's going be a while.
00:48:24
Speaker
And I think that I think I pretty much said everything I wanted to except I do have one thing is that Feeding tubes for children are such a serious intervention, but they also are a very major red flag for factitious disorder imposed on another, Munchausen syndrome by proxy, medical child abuse, like all of those things.
Signs of Abuse and Community Influence
00:48:52
Speaker
A feeding tube is a very powerful tool and it is not uncommon for the abuser in that situation to adamantly request a feeding tube for a child that does not necessarily need it.
00:49:07
Speaker
And it's extremely sad because children who actually do need them, there should be no barriers in the way of them getting it But unfortunately, because it's such a powerful method of abuse, I do feel like there needs to be like additional, there needs to be some sort of thing in place that this is reevaluated every six months, every three months, and it's not optional because it was suggested all the time, but Lacey was just able to decide not to do it.
00:49:36
Speaker
And I just, I feel like that's kind of crazy that she had that amount of power. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's sad. But i again, it's that the kids that do need it shouldn't but have any concerns on getting it.
00:49:54
Speaker
So it's that weird double sword, right? Like you just, you don't want it to be too easy to get, but you don't want to make it too hard to get either, particularly for younger children who truly, truly need it
00:50:12
Speaker
How about you? Any final thoughts? No, I think we touched on it all. The only final thought I have is i would like to dig into that fellowship community just because I'd be curious during her time there if there are any connections with other issues or learning negative things in a positive way that you can hide if that's making sense because there's a couple allegations connected to fellowship church and fellowship community.
00:50:49
Speaker
It'd be – and it's very much people taking care of other people who can't take care of themselves. So going be curious – There's more there. So I think that's my final thought of like, did she learn something there that she then continued? And that's where it started to escalate because it really got worse when she came to New York.
00:51:14
Speaker
So that would be kind of an interesting dive for us on another another episode. It would be. And I don't think it's a coincidence that she moved there. I think that she did it intentionally and kind of thought that she'd be able to blend in better perhaps there than she could other places. Also the distance from her family, I think was important and helpful for the medical child abuse that she was orchestrating. Cause if you have too many people and your immediate family watching, it's going to be harder to get away with.
00:51:50
Speaker
And if you move somewhere new you also can present all whatever information you want to. And i think that, she she did it for several reasons.
00:52:01
Speaker
And she also wanted to look like, oh, we're raw vegans and we're all organic and we live this certain lifestyle. And, you know, so it was it was ah ah many reasons that she picked the fellowship. But I do think there's probably some not so good stuff there that would be worth talking about and diving into.
00:52:19
Speaker
They claim they're not a religion or a cult, but it very much seems like they are.
00:52:25
Speaker
Well, there's there's all kinds of different connections because fellowship groups, there's a lot of them. So seeing if any of them are connected to this one, i think would be interesting because they like you said, they have a lot of mixed reviews and there's...
00:52:50
Speaker
there's a lot of interesting layers for the location in New York that she was in So yeah, we'll have to, we'll have to poke around that.
00:53:00
Speaker
Okay. Well, I do think that that would be interesting. Maybe we can find out about other scandals that have been associated.
Podcast Conclusion
00:53:07
Speaker
Talk about that. Alrighty. Well, we'll pick up right here next week until next time.
00:53:15
Speaker
Bye. All right.