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Tony and Jodie Chat With Author Jamil Jivani
66 Plays3 years ago
This week, Tony and Jodie catch up with radio host and non-practising lawyer Jamil Jivani. Jivani recently wrote “Why Young Men: The Dangerous Allure of Violent Movements and What We Can Do About It”.
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The Muskoka Chef - they offer catering throughout the Muskoka Lakes Region by car or by boat. Visit www.themuskokachef.com or call Julie at 416-846-3653.
This podcast is hosted by ZenCast.fm
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Standards
00:00:00
Speaker
And another thing. And another thing. And another thing. And another thing. Welcome to another episode of And Another Thing, the podcast that continues to set the bar in the world of podcasts. My name is Jody Jenkins. And I'm Tony Clement.
00:00:30
Speaker
And here we are again. Here we are again. Together, working together. We're in this together, Tony. We are together, but apart. But yes, you know, I hate to.
Masks and Virtue Signaling
00:00:43
Speaker
I didn't want to start the show like this, but I just we were just reading some social media posts and we all know how encouraging and optimistic Twitter usually is. Oh, there was a post there from I think one of these doctors that
00:00:59
Speaker
got a lot of attention during the pandemic. Is it, I don't know how to say, is Dr. Shakawi? I think he was on TV a lot. But he just posted, like out of the blue, I'm sure because, well, I don't know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on why he would post what I'm about to say, but he posted something along the lines of, just randomly, my kids will be going back to school with masks to promote being a good neighbor for their grandma, blah, blah, blah.
00:01:28
Speaker
I'm just like, why, why, why would he feel the need to put that out there other than simply, well, it was, it was a, like, look at me, you know, it was announced today that in the province of Ontario, they would, they will not be requiring masks at school. Yeah. But okay. But that I get that, but it's like, whether they do or don't, like, it's just like,
00:01:51
Speaker
It's like he has to let everyone know. I hate using the term virtue signaling, whatever, but it is like that to the nth degree. Hey, by the way, everyone that wasn't interested in knowing, I'm going to be sending my kids back with masks. Yeah.
00:02:07
Speaker
No, but I think you're right. They want to distinguish themselves from these terrible people, these terrible parents who are sending their kids back to school without masks on. It's so bizarre. My word. I got three young ones. Well, one will be six in a month here, so I've got an eight-year-old, a six-year-old, and a three-year-old. Yeah, it's interesting times for sure. But anyway,
Sponsor Acknowledgements
00:02:34
Speaker
on a positive note. We got to give a shout out, obviously, to our presenting sponsor each week, John Mutton and the team at Municipal Solutions. And of course, I know you'll mention something about this, but John Mutton's birthday was just a couple days ago. Yeah. And so we recognized him online and we thanked him and congratulated him on his birthday. And yeah, we are so happy to have their support. Municipal Solutions has been with us since day one.
00:03:03
Speaker
And Tony, I know that you can share a bit more about what they do. Yes. No, John, of course. Happy birthday. Let's get that on the record. I think we sent it out on our Instagram page as well. But his company, Municipal Solutions, they are Ontario's leading MZO firm, municipal zoning orders. That means if you need a development approved or permits expedited or planning services with municipalities, you want to get something on track.
00:03:31
Speaker
And they also do engineering services and architectural services, even minor variances or land severances. Go to municipalsolutions.ca. They can help you out. John and the team are there for you. And then we also want to recognize another sponsor. We have the Muskoka Chef, Julie. The Muskoka Chef is a female owned local food service company that serves the Muskoka Lakes region all year round. And their services include onsite and offsite catering,
00:04:01
Speaker
private chef experiences and micro wedding catering services. A lot of weddings going on in Muskoka right now. That's for sure. They are located on Lake Joe and they deliver food by car to your front door, of course, or by boat to your dock. Now, summer 2022, we're in the final stages. There might be a couple of spots still open. I'm not sure, but they certainly have spots in September 2022 and beyond.
00:04:27
Speaker
And she also offers vegetarian, vegan, and gluten free options as well. Go to the MuskokaChef.com or call Julie directly at 416-846-3653. And finally, let's not forget our friends at Hunter's Bay radio. They are rebroadcasting our podcasts on terrestrial radio at 8.30 AM. Every Saturday morning, you can go to huntersbayradio.com.
00:04:58
Speaker
And last but not least, loonypolitics.com. You can get exclusive content that you can't get anywhere else, including news articles, videos, and podcast episodes like ours. All you got to do is become an annual subscriber. Use the code PODCAST to get 50% off your annual subscription. Again, that's loonypolitics.com. You know, Tony, while you're rhyming off all the sponsors and everything, because we have
00:05:27
Speaker
That's just the tip of the iceberg. We have millions of supporters. We're that freaking big. But anyway, while you were reading all those off, it made me think for some reason, you would have been a good Rod Roddy. Remember him from The Prices, right? I feel like I could see you visually, given the prices of those prizes and going over the
00:05:47
Speaker
you know, telling the details of what those people could win. And there was always the dinette set. That's where there's always a dinette set involved. You're going to Spain. You'll spend four fabulous nights. And anyway, you'd make a good Rod Roddy. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. Is he dead? I have no idea. Boy, oh, boy, that's a long time. Is Bob Barker's dead, right? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So Rod Rod. Well, of course I'm going to have to Google that now, but.
00:06:13
Speaker
And now we have to do an RIP for Olivia Newton. John, you know, that you brought up celebrities. Yeah, she's she was 73. I thought. Yeah, I know. He died in 2003. Oh, my goodness. Smokes. We hardly knew you. I was going to say so. He was only 66 when he died. Just a young man, my friend. Guess where he was born. He's from Fort Worth, Texas. I've been to Fort Worth. Great little town. Well, really, it's a big town now, but you know what I mean.
00:06:42
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So anyway, on that note, um, the show's going well. Yeah, it was good to say this is this issue went off the rails faster than most. So anyway, we should introduce our guests. Why don't we introduce our guests? I think we can get us back on track.
Is Drake's Music Boring?
00:06:57
Speaker
We're actually very happy that, uh, Jamal Giovanni has agreed to join us today. He is the author of why young men.
00:07:05
Speaker
the dangerous allure of violent movements and what we can do about it. He is also now the president of the Canada Strong and Free Network, which is a think tank and a do tank. I can say both, I think. And he is a frequent contributor to the Macdonald-Laurier Institute and, of course, the National Post. Welcome to the program, Jamil. Great to be with you guys. Now, I'm going to start with one of your most controversial views, which was on display just this week.
00:07:36
Speaker
You wrote that Drake is boring. Tell us why. Well, I'm sure you were joking when you said it was one of my most controversial views, but it actually might be, at least among my friends and family. That's what I've gotten most arguments about so far. Basically, my argument is that Drake has been kind of doing the same thing for like 15 years now. His musical content is pretty much unchanged for over a decade.
00:08:04
Speaker
He had a new song come out last week, which borrows uncreatively, in my opinion, from the Bee Gees song, Staying Alive. He basically just repeats the exact same chorus and then tells us about all the women that he's going out with and on dates with. It's the same thing. And I just think as the world has changed dramatically over the last couple of years, I think it's exposed which artists are able to speak to the cultural and political
00:08:32
Speaker
Experiences of young people and that is predominantly who is in Drake's audience and there are rappers and artists who do do that Well, and I compare Drake to a rapper who grew up in BC in Alberta named Tom McDonald He's the same age as Drake also the same age as me. He's in Los Angeles now and he raps a lot about
00:08:53
Speaker
depression and alcoholism and politics and like real things that people are going through, especially since the pandemic took its toll on our communities. And now we've got an economic downturn. It just feels like Drake's message is a little bit out of touch with what a lot of people are going through. So that's why I think he's boring, mostly because he's just giving us the same things, regardless of what direction the world is turning in. I personally feel that I saw Drake at the high watermark. I saw him
00:09:22
Speaker
in 2015 at Coachella. And that was the time when Madonna just somehow bounded on stage and gave him a full mouth kiss. I don't know if you remember that moment, but I do. And I love the idea that you were in the audience for that. That sounds awesome. I was shocked, shocked. But it was definitely not something that we had anticipated was going to happen. And I think he was shocked, too. But I think that's the that's now the the he's he was at the summit.
00:09:51
Speaker
at Coachella, and maybe it's gone a little bit downhill from there. I don't know, but thank you for displaying some controversy over
Critical Race Theory's Impact
00:09:58
Speaker
Drake. I think it's much needed. But you also recently wrote about the pervasive and divisive, I guess, adherence to critical race theory in our schools, in our governments, in our corporations. Tell us a little bit about what you're thinking about critical race theory.
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think a lot of people when they hear Critical Race Theory, it conjures up images of American culture wars and some people wanting to talk about racism all the time and others wanting to deny it exists. And I think Critical Race Theory is more nuanced than that, especially in Canada, because Critical Race Theory is not really about
00:10:37
Speaker
Talking about racism i think right a point where were sophisticated enough most of us to acknowledge that different people are gonna experience life in different ways and we should be open minded to hearing what that looks and sounds like but critical race theory is a bit more of a problem.
00:10:54
Speaker
in my view than just conversations about inequality, because it sort of demands inequality exists, even if we have made progress to change something. That it is sort of this underlying racial bias within all of our laws, all of our policies, all of our businesses, all of our community groups. And therefore, we're in this perennial position
00:11:18
Speaker
of some people, like myself, being labeled victims, regardless of what we might do and the changes we might make and the activism we might engage in, and labeling other people, mostly white people and white men in particular, as perennial oppressors. And that sort of ideology, I think, has the potential to be harmful and divisive.
00:11:43
Speaker
especially when it's embraced without critical thinking. And that's sort of the ironic part of it is that critical is in the terminology. You know, it makes people think that they're sort of going against the status quo and they're asking tough questions and they're, you know, standing up against the man. But the truth is that it's been embraced by the man.
00:12:02
Speaker
Every major corporation, every major government office, every school board has embraced this ideology to some degree. That's why terms like systemic racism and white privilege ideas that weren't really part of our discourse just five years ago are now something that everybody's expected to either say or at least pretend they agree with even if they don't.
00:12:24
Speaker
And that I think speaks to a pretty dramatic change in how we talk about racism and inequality. And it's one that I encourage Canadians to just reflect on. I mean, is it actually a good change? Are we solving problems? Are things getting better? Or perhaps at a time where
00:12:41
Speaker
class inequality is getting worse because of problems like inflation and rising cost of living. We're actually being encouraged to divide ourselves rather than see what we have in common, which I think we're in a unique historical moment to really see that we're going through very similar challenges regardless of what we look like. Is Canada a racist society based on your kind of lived experience?
00:13:06
Speaker
No, I wouldn't say Canada is a racist society. And I appreciate that that's a complicated question. Some people, when they hear it, they think that it's about history. And I do think it would be ridiculous to suggest that there's no racism in Canadian history. We're all very aware of that. I think Pope Francis' visit
00:13:24
Speaker
to Canada really was an opportunity to reflect on a lot of those historical injustices. But in terms of Canada today, do I think by and large we are a racist country? No. I think if you look at so many different measures of that, whether it's
00:13:40
Speaker
the performance of people who immigrate to this country from all over the world, the opportunities through education and employment that people are given, the fact that we have one of the highest educated populations in human history when it comes to post-secondary attainment, the fact that we are fighting things like child poverty all over the country from coast to coast to coast. There's so many measures that you could look at and say, do people have a fair chance regardless of what they look like or where they're born?
00:14:08
Speaker
Is it perfect? Absolutely not. And there are important changes we need to make. Personally, I think most of the issues we face today are more class oriented than they are race oriented. And that's one of the reasons why I think it's important for us to say is racism and race and that type of physical characteristic the best way to explain why some people might be dealing with poverty or
00:14:33
Speaker
underfunded schools or variety of other issues i don't think race is the best way to explain that in twenty twenty two. It's funny you should mention that because this is been. You know there's been a lot of attention recently on ndp leader jagmeet saying for instance and you know.
00:14:53
Speaker
There are some theories building up and the recent re-election of the Ford government in Ontario buttresses this theory that the NDP has lost its connection with the blue collar workers who are now flocking to conservative solutions and conservative parties, which you wouldn't have
00:15:14
Speaker
thought of if we were in a class-based ideology clash, right? But maybe that's part of the story there that the NDP isn't interested in class issues anymore. It's more interested in these issues of identity politics and it's having an impact on their voter base.
00:15:36
Speaker
I think that's exactly right, Tony. If you look at what's happening in the world right now, I mean, the left, the political left, the cultural left, institutions like the NDP, you know, certain pop culture institutions, media organizations, universities, it's become common for a lot of these places that used to be voices for the working class and the middle class to now literally call the majority of working class Canadians privileged.
00:16:03
Speaker
I mean, they have taken race as a proxy for inequality and are now calling people who are working class and middle class in this country privileged during a time of unprecedented inflation and economic inequality and a housing crisis and all sorts of stuff.
00:16:20
Speaker
So it really shouldn't be a surprise to someone like Jagmeet Singh that his rhetoric, his ideas, the way he approaches politics, just it's not resonating with the majority of people who used to rely on the NDP to provide a voice for their
00:16:35
Speaker
experiences working class families. The other issue I would say too is where culture and class start to intersect. Because the truth is, these days a lot of people feel like you need a graduate degree just to be able to speak freely and not worry about being cancelled or mobbed on social media. That you've got to talk like someone in a university seminar to be able to address what's happening in the world around you without fear that it's going to come at some cost to your career or your reputation.
00:17:05
Speaker
And the truth is that that is a very elitist way of influencing politics and culture. So I think a lot of people who maybe think the NDP's ideas around something like dental care or childcare might be good for them are also worried that do people who are in this party even like me? Do they want people like me to even talk? Do they want us to have a voice? Because every time someone like me opens my mouth, it seems like I've got to be afraid they're going to try to cancel me.
00:17:35
Speaker
you know, relationship between economics and culture is something that I think elitists who identify with, you know, left wing politics have completely lost touch with. Let me bring it back to your day job.
Canada Strong and Free Network Vision
00:17:49
Speaker
You're now head of the Canada Strong and Free Network. Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about that and what Canada Strong and Free is doing and what you hope to do in the future?
00:18:00
Speaker
Well, you know, I'm I'm 34 years old. I'm a millennial. I'm also an unapologetic conservative. You know, I know some people find it uncomfortable to talk about politics, but it's something that certainly the three of us aren't afraid to touch on. So I say I'm unapologetic because I think I'm part of a generation that has been led to believe we are supposed to be a bit afraid or cautious, tentative, maybe, of identifying with conservative politics.
00:18:30
Speaker
And, you know, I say that as someone who grew up in a single parent household, I grew up in a mostly Jamaican and Sikh community in Brampton. I don't come from a background that people typically associate with conservative politics, but I identify as a conservative because I genuinely believe that policy ideas from a conservative perspective are best for
00:18:53
Speaker
the average Canadian, the average working and middle class Canadian. So this role that I took on a couple months ago as president of the Canada Strong and Free Network is about bringing that perspective to the largest conservative networking organization in the country. We host conferences that, you know, Tony, you've spoken at before in different cities, including Ottawa, including Red Deer, Alberta. We do events in all sorts of different parts of the country. And my view is I want to
00:19:20
Speaker
Grow the conservative movement in canada by making it a place that is welcoming a place that offers opportunity to millennials and gens ears people of different backgrounds people who have different life experiences across this country but also connecting us.
00:19:38
Speaker
to people of older generations who have been part of the conservative movement for a long time and have tons of wisdom and insights about how we might lead this country in a better way moving forward when that great day comes that Justin Trudeau is no longer our Prime Minister.
00:19:54
Speaker
So I think of my my role as creating these networking opportunities that are going to bring different generations together and really look at, you know, what do we need to do to grow this movement so conservatives can govern well and govern with everybody's needs in mind, that there are no blind spots. And I know that's a hard thing to accomplish, but I think it's important that we're aspirational and that it can be a moonshot for us to be the kind of political movement that everybody across the country sees themselves represented in.
00:20:25
Speaker
So, you must be in a good position to answer this, or I'm positing this anyway. What is the state of Canada's conservatism?
State of Canadian Conservatism
00:20:34
Speaker
It is a great question. And I think the honest answer to that is we're a bit fractured at the moment. I think in different parts of Canada, you get a different kind of conservative politics. I think about the differences between Western Canadians in Alberta and Saskatchewan who feel like they're not being heard, who feel like their economic interests are not being respected by the rest of the country.
00:20:57
Speaker
I look at what's in Quebec where you've got Premier Legault, you've got a growing Conservative Party of Quebec as well. You've got a number of people who believe that part of conservatism in this country should be respecting language rights and history and culture. Then you look at a place like Ontario where I think we're very focused on institutional leadership and providing
00:21:23
Speaker
some of the core services of government like education and health care. But I think there's a bit of an identity crisis on some of those things of what does it mean to be a conservative who cares about education, who cares about health care policy. So I do see us being fractured. And I think, of course, the the ongoing conservative leadership contest has has revealed some of those fracture lines. Certainly it's been a more spirited, perhaps a more divided leadership race than some people expected.
00:21:51
Speaker
But I am optimistic, Tony, that once we have a leader, that he or she will be able to bring these different groups across the country together and recognize that part of Canadian conservatism may be acknowledging different regional priorities and different regional styles and approaches, but ultimately providing that national vision for how we can all be running in the same direction together.
00:22:16
Speaker
So that's the challenge facing the next leader of the party and to the extent that you know that is true for the movement as well. I would say that's where an organization like Canada Strong and Free comes in where we want to be able to bring those different regional groups together at the same time. Yeah and I think you've made the point. It's regional, it's also a little bit class based and as you know with the
00:22:40
Speaker
I should say it. I mean, the rise the rise of populism in a Canadian version of
Canadian Populism Explained
00:22:46
Speaker
that. I'd love you to speak to that a little bit, because there is a feeling that there's an established group of elites that have not been running the country terribly well. It has very different grounds as a populist movement than say in other countries where it can be anti-immigrant or some of these other things. I don't I don't really see that as part of Canada's populism.
00:23:08
Speaker
But tell me a little bit about that, what you're observing on that front. I think you're right that there is a unique Canadian style of populism that's emerging. And you're absolutely right that it's not one that is similar to what we've seen in other places. We are not seeing anti-immigrant sentiment.
00:23:27
Speaker
And I think that's important. So many of us identify with immigrants in our ancestry or many of us are immigrants. We're seeing record numbers of newcomers entering Canada and we're not seeing a divisive backlash to that. So there are people who want to force Canadian populism to be like populism in other places, but it just doesn't resonate with reality in my opinion.
00:23:53
Speaker
And I think the good part of Canadian populism is that it is bringing attention to the fact that many of the institutions in the country have let Canadians down. I mean it's hard to look at the last couple of years and not conclude that people who had a certain amount of wealth and power
00:24:12
Speaker
had a very different experience during the pandemic than people who were struggling in this economy, who were struggling with health issues, who didn't have the option of working at home over Zoom or Microsoft Teams. I mean, the reality is that a lot of things were exposed as far as our institution's inability to respond to the average working and middle-class family.
00:24:37
Speaker
Our populism I think is emerging as a call to be sensitive to that and to say, look, we need to make some institutional changes. But I do think our populism is nuanced enough to not destroy our institutions. I think it is still informed by a certain level of respect.
00:24:53
Speaker
for who we are and the high quality of life that most Canadians enjoy and so our populism feels more balanced to me for that reason. It bothers me that there are a lot of people in news media outlets particularly places like CTV, CBC, Toronto Star,
00:25:12
Speaker
that really don't want to acknowledge that difference and take every opportunity they can to try to label Canadian politicians on the right as though there's no difference between them and Republicans, for example, in the US. And I think that is just so dishonest and so short-sighted. We really do need to respect and embrace the fact that we have a different identity and different priorities here.
00:25:36
Speaker
You know, and that's a really interesting point because, you know, you know better than most as someone who does write for media as an as an example, that Canadian conservatives do have a hill to climb with establishment or established media.
Media Bias and Conservative Strategy
00:25:53
Speaker
So what what is the best way to win over Canadians, given that media environment and, you know, the fact that there's some of these entrenched interests?
00:26:04
Speaker
I think on this issue, Pierre Poliev and his campaign probably have the most sophisticated thinking of any national politician I've seen in recent memory in the sense that they do have a strategy to connect with Canadians across the country without going through the traditional media outlets.
00:26:26
Speaker
And I think it's actually something I worry about for the media companies is I don't think they realize how much they're sacrificing their own credibility by being so biased and unfair and having their own agenda. And what that's produced is the reality that we have a record number
00:26:45
Speaker
of Pete Canadian signing up to be members of the Conservative Party of Canada, a record amount of donations being made to Pierre Poliev's campaign, and yet very little positive press about him from most mainstream media, which shows I think how irrelevant a lot of mainstream media has made itself.
00:27:04
Speaker
that through social media, through his own email lists, through his own in-person events across the country, Mr. Polyev has been able to establish his own relationship with Canadians across every province. So if I were a news media company, instead of being so hostile to someone like Mr. Polyev, I think I would be saying to myself, what are we missing here? Because obviously, they've
00:27:27
Speaker
They're slow to realize what's happening in this country. And I think that the trucker convoy earlier this year also exposed that, that the media had been so used to telling one side of the story, they didn't realize how much frustration was growing from very legitimate
00:27:44
Speaker
sources that they were Canadians who are business owners and professionals and thoughtful people who are not conspiracy theorists or anti-vaxxers but were just concerned about their rights being infringed on and the media was just taken by surprise about what was growing in this country over a two-year period.
00:28:01
Speaker
So I look at the media right now and I think they're in a crisis stage where they've got to really decide do they want to be relevant, in which case they need to approach their jobs differently, or if they want to continue being out of touch, this is exactly why they need bailouts from Justin Trudeau. Right.
Jamil Giovanni's Political Future
00:28:20
Speaker
Jodi, we're near the end of the interview. Do you want to intercede with anything from your point of view?
00:28:26
Speaker
No, I'm still upset about the Drake comments. I've been able to move on. He's been triggered. He's now a victim, Jamil. He's a victim. I will say, Jody, I am open minded to Drake proving me wrong and showing he's got some new tricks up his sleeve. So I await his next album with baited breath. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. All good. Well, Jamil, we're going to leave it at that. Thank you for joining us. It's been fantastic you having on the program. We really
00:28:56
Speaker
Uh, I threw everything I had at you and that we had some really quality discussions. So we, we very much appreciate being on the program. Well, it was great to hang out with you guys. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Another excellent discussion. Uh, definitely, definitely a guy with a very unique perspective, but, uh, he, he, he words, he sent, he messages it very well. Yes. No. And he thought very, very much about these issues. So that's why I wanted.
00:29:24
Speaker
him on because he's a very thoughtful person and I think we have to start addressing some of these issues. They're not cut and dried as some of the people in the establishment would say they are. Yeah, and I used to listen to him on CFRB 1010, their news talk, and I thought it was
00:29:43
Speaker
I thought it was a bad move getting rid of them, but, uh, we didn't really get into that, but no, we didn't, but I probably had some sort of NDA. I'm talking about that, you know, and just, uh, this just so, so toxic in the media these days. And you can't, uh, I'm glad that he's out and about. He's, he's doing good work for the conservative movement and for Canadian society. Generally, that's the important thing. Do you think he, did he, has he run before? I feel, I feel like he has, but maybe I'm wrong somewhere or somehow. No.
00:30:13
Speaker
I'd have to check. I'm not sure. He sounds like someone that could run. Yeah. I mean, he should be a candidate for office at some point, I would think. Yeah. So we'll see what.
00:30:24
Speaker
We'll see what transpires there. So yeah, that wraps up another episode. Again, thanks to the crew at Municipal Solutions. You can find them online at municipalsolutions.ca. Each week they present the show. Don't forget also lunepolitics.com. Become an annual subscriber for access to exclusive content. Simply use the code podcast to get 50% off your annual subscription.
00:30:47
Speaker
And Tony, I know that you can thank our other partners. Yes, I can, Jodi. Of course, the Muskoka chef, Julie, she's ready to take your requirements for whatever you're planning, whatever event that might be at the MuskokaChef.com or at 416-846-3653. And don't forget that our podcasts are rebroadcast.
00:31:10
Speaker
broadcast on terrestrial radio at huntersbayradio.com every Saturday morning at 8 30 a.m. All right, we'll do this again in seven days. Sounds good.