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22. Grieving Someone Of Whom I Have No Memories Of. -With Lindsay Joy Taylor
69 Plays5 years ago
Lindsay Joy Taylor, MACP, is a grief advocate and founder of The Joyful Jewelry Box. Lindsay's mom died when she was just an infant so now she works to keep her mother's memory alive by serving other bereaved people with community grief support and her remembrance jewelry line. She also writes and speaks to normalize and raise awareness about grief, loss, and trauma.
Contact and Follow Lindsay : https://www.bit.ly/tjjbnews
Instagram :https://www.instagram.com/TheJoyfulJewelryBox
shop: https://www.TheJoyfulJewelryBox.com
Contact and follow Kendra Rinaldi: www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween
IG: www.instagram.com/griefgratitudepodcast
www.instagram.com/kendra.rinaldi
Music: www.oneplanetmusic.com also IG @oneplanetmusic.fm
Production: Carlos Andres Londono
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
This idea that I feel like what it does, it takes this really ambiguous, scary, dark, never-ending hole, for lack of a better term, you know? I don't know what it's like to think about death without knowing it. So, I mean, forgive my assumptions there. But I think it gives an idea of control. It gives an idea of
00:00:27
Speaker
compartmentalization. It creates organization. It takes all those scary, messy feelings that we have no idea what we're going to do with and all the uncertainty about, wait, what? I'm going to have to live without my person. And it gives them some sense of control and understanding. Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:54
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:10
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Meeting Lindsay Joy
00:01:32
Speaker
Welcome to today's episode. Today, I have Lindsay Joy, a friend that I met through Instagram. We both happen to have Instagram accounts on the topic of grief, and we connected that way. And I was inspired by her posts and the way that she just shares so vulnerably her story. And I was eager to learn more about her story, and so I decided to invite her onto the podcast
00:02:00
Speaker
so that as I am learning about her journey, you, the listeners, can listen as well and feel inspired through her journey. So, Lindsay, welcome. Thank you so much for having me, Kendra. I appreciate it.
00:02:16
Speaker
I am so glad that you accepted in this, in this like one in the shot. Usually I even do pre-interviews before podcasts and today we're like, no, let's just set up the appointment. Let's just go on it. Let's do it.
Vulnerability and Connection on Social Media
00:02:28
Speaker
Let's do it. I kind of love that part of, sorry. I love that about this community in the sense of like, um, you said it. I mean, we're already speaking so vulnerable and so it's so interesting how, um,
00:02:43
Speaker
that can really take a lot of the discomfort right out of the gates. Don't worry about the small talk. We just jump right in. You know what I mean? That is so funny that you say that. It's so true because it's like the first thing I asked right away is like, okay, go ahead. Tell us about your grief experience. It's like, usually you talk about people like.
00:03:00
Speaker
and what's the weather like and how are you doing and then maybe you get to know the hard parts and you know in most relationships but you're right when you've gone through something hard and you already are putting yourself out there in Instagram or Facebook or whatever it is that you expose your vulnerabilities to or podcasts then you already are
00:03:22
Speaker
basically allowing others to ask you about that hard part of your life right away, right from the get-go or that vulnerable part. So thank you. I appreciate it. So Lindsay, where do you live? Where do you live? Let's just start. Let's actually do a little bit of the chitchat. Let's do a little bit of the, what's the weather like? Yeah.
00:03:44
Speaker
Let's just go backwards.
Lindsay's Background and Early Life
00:03:47
Speaker
So you live in the West Coast. I know that we were doing Pacific time, Central time. So you're Pacific time. So I'm on the central coast of California. And so I live in a tiny little beach town just outside of Pismo Beach.
00:04:02
Speaker
And you know, it's smack between San Francisco and Los Angeles for anybody who's not familiar. We're kind of right on the coast there. And the weather, it's funny you say that it's always nice here. You know, I'm very blessed to live here. I went to college here and just had
00:04:18
Speaker
enough wits about me to never leave when I graduated. It's beautiful. Is that near San Luis Obispo? Yes, actually that's exactly where I went to school. So I don't live in... Was that what it is? Polytech? Yes. Is that the one that's in? Yeah, yeah. Yes. And so more people are familiar with Pismo Beach and then I'm just about 10 minutes south of there. So I'm just outside of San Luis Obispo.
00:04:44
Speaker
I had a great uncle that lived in San Luis Obispo, so that's why I know the area and I used to live in California. So there we go. We got something in common, but I lived in the LA area. Well, actually, I lived in Northern. I lived north of you and I lived south of you. So basically, I would cross you anytime I'd have to either when I lived in Northern California, I lived in Gilroy, the garlic capital of the world.
00:05:10
Speaker
I lived there for a year and then through, yeah, and then the LA area. So there we go. Now we know, now we know.
Complex PTSD and Loss of Mother
00:05:19
Speaker
So now you live in California, you have something unique on Instagram and it's that you share a little bit about your, it's like post-traumatic
00:05:33
Speaker
Stress right that was developed because of the grief experience you had and that's something that I is that correct Am I am I saying it correctly? Yes. Yes. Yes. And so more specifically it's complex complex PTSD which There's sort of a few different ways to look at it. But from my experience personally, it's very much relational trauma It's very much caused by the rupture of attachment when my mom died. I was an infant and so she was a
00:06:02
Speaker
my primary attachment figure. And after that, it was pretty inconsistent and not super reliable in terms of my other caretakers. And so for me personally, I experienced that traumatic stress much more in my relationships. Wow. So tell us then a little bit about that, then how many months old were you and what was the cost of your mom's death if that's okay for you to share?
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah, of course. So I was very young. I was only 13 months old and unfortunately my mother was murdered. Oh my gosh. When my family was, um, the short version is we were traveling and she had just started it, excuse me, let me reverse that. She had just started working at the hospital over the graveyard shift. And so she was going to be lurking, working late one night and, um,
00:06:57
Speaker
my dad's sister had recently moved. And so she said, why don't you take the kids and go visit your sister, see the new house, et cetera. Um, and unfortunately when she came home, the house was being robbed and they shot her when she walked in the door. And so were you the only child? So where you were more than one, you were the youngest? Correct. I am the youngest of three children. And so I was just over a year old. Um, and my siblings, while they were both also children were much older. Um,
00:07:28
Speaker
in the way of, how do I say this? I didn't mean that to come off like that they weren't children. My point is my sister had just turned seven. Yeah, and my brother had turned nine. So the level of,
00:07:40
Speaker
Just contact with my mother naturally and then just a level of understanding. Certainly there were still children and you can only grasp so much, but we just have a very different experience in the sense of, I don't have any explicit memories of my mother and they do. Even though they're minimal, they still can place this woman in their lives. They can place the relationship that they had up until a certain point. Whereas for me, it's very vague to me.
00:08:06
Speaker
I grieve somebody that I don't even know. I feel very much an outsider in that kind of experience in my family because I just didn't get that opportunity to have any relationship with her. What you just said right there of the grieving somebody that you don't even know, like grieving somebody that you don't even have memories of. So I have chills right now because that concept for somebody that has not lived it,
00:08:35
Speaker
You know, may not, may not even register. But even in that concept of going into grief, even in other areas that don't have to do about death, we sometimes grief things that we've idealized or created that then don't end up happening. And we grieve that we didn't get them.
00:08:55
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like certain like oh I'm gonna get married at such an age or I'm gonna have this many children or I'm gonna have this type of job and then those things don't happen and then you get that you know the grief or you know people call it disappointment or whatever but it but it or because of the expectation that you have but it's it's grief too because it's something you had idealized that is
00:09:19
Speaker
So tell us then a little bit then about that. So then your dad then was the primary caretaker after your mom passed then of the three of you?
Family Dynamics After Mother's Death
00:09:28
Speaker
Correct. He did remarry shortly after. He remarried twice after my mom passed. And neither of those were necessarily positive relationships or experiences in my life. And so in some ways, they exacerbated the situation. But ultimately, I never
00:09:49
Speaker
I never viewed them as attachment figures. That was never really ever part of our dynamic. I would say that he had additional wives and he also had children, but we never really were a family, if you will. Did those wives have children as well? Like that they have children that they brought into the relationship or did your dad have other children with these?
00:10:14
Speaker
He did not. The first wife did have two other children. One was much older and then the other one was my age and that was really traumatic for me personally. There's just a lot of yucky memories and it just wasn't a positive experience. And then the other one was harmless really. She just wasn't interested and
00:10:38
Speaker
in having a family or being a stepmother, which is interesting when you marry a man who has three children and he's the sole caretaker. You know what I mean? So that's sort of what I mean, that they were just very separate. And I think in a lot of ways, not only from my experience and obviously being so young, but I think I just learned to compartmentalize these different parts of my life very young and just went on with that, if you will. And so right away,
00:11:06
Speaker
My mom had two sisters and one of them was actually very, very involved in helping us in our daily lives up until we moved. So at the time we had lived in San Jose, just outside of the Bay area. And so we stayed there until I was six. And so for those first five years, she was really crucial in terms of really helping just to run the family, if you will.
00:11:34
Speaker
And then after that, after we moved, we returned to my dad's childhood hometown, which was up in the mountains. And it was actually, that was a positive experience in the sense of, in all the ways, honestly. And after that, my sister really stepped in and I would say became my primary
00:11:56
Speaker
caretaker, my attachment figure, and I really looked to her as my mother figure in most ways. And she was the one that's seven years old or six years older than you? Yeah. Okay. Now, so at that point, how old were you at that point when she kind of took over that role of the mother figure to you? How old was she and how old were you?
00:12:18
Speaker
I mean, it probably began before this, but to me it was really clear after we moved. So I was six and she was 13, so a teenager, still way too young. And she really stepped up in the ways of really just being able to take care of herself and pitch in for the family.
00:12:40
Speaker
And honestly, I don't know what things would look like if she hadn't been there.
Sister as Caretaker
00:12:45
Speaker
What is your relationship with her now? Does it still have that dynamic?
00:12:53
Speaker
You know, it's been interesting to navigate. We have a positive relationship. Yes, I know. Just curious how it transforms as you become an adult as well, right? And it's your sister, but she's always seen you as that role of caretaker. And then when you don't necessarily need a caretaker anymore, you know, when you yourself are already older, but then this is, you know, I'm just curious of the dynamics.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah, you know, for a long time, you sort of touched on it right in and of itself. And yet it's almost a reverse of that. I think when I was younger, it was hard. I really felt like, I mean, I shared everything with her. And yet there was still always this element of never wanting to disappoint her or, you know, there was definitely more of like that wanting her approval rather than her sister ship for a long time.
00:13:48
Speaker
And I think we navigated that pretty well. You know, what was interesting is being adults and sort of renegotiating all of that now to be just sisters. That's been the part that's actually been more difficult for me probably than it has been for her. She
00:14:09
Speaker
I mean, I am married and I have created a family in the sense of my husband and my dog, but we don't have children. And she has married her high school sweetheart and has two kids and it's very much has built a family. And so that's probably been the part that's, you know, a little bit more tricky for us to negotiate now, really trying to, you know, I think when I was younger, I needed to make that transition from sort of mother, daughter to sister, sister.
00:14:38
Speaker
We did that. And then I think that I didn't recognize the gaps that that would leave for me in terms of the mother-daughter dynamic. Does that make sense?
00:14:49
Speaker
Yes. Yes. I understand because it's also like then at what point then it's because you're still kind of as if you're still missing this piece. So now if that relationship is going to switch to being now sister, sister, then it's kind of like, wait, but then still now who fits that piece that I've associated as, you know, that mother figure now if we're going to have the sisterly relationship now. Exactly. It's like losing your mom all over again. Yes.
00:15:18
Speaker
nearly impossible to put into words. It's been really, it's been really challenging to navigate in ways that I show up for myself compassionately and hold space and grace for, for that baby that in me that of course I feel all of these things. And then also negotiating the part of like, I, of course I want her family to be her priority. Of course I'm indebted to all the ways that she showed up for me, but that doesn't erase the gap that, um,
00:15:47
Speaker
that is now there again. And so that's probably been the trickiest part that it wasn't anticipating. I think that we anticipated more of that shift originally, but I don't think that we anticipated this part, or at least I think I should say.
00:16:02
Speaker
No, that is so interesting. And just, you know, going back to even how you said about the grieving experience of even just the three of you of different ages, you know, seven, nine and, you know, in 13 months and how you all experienced it differently, not only because of your ages, but the memories that you had associated with the relationships that you might have already created. I
00:16:27
Speaker
I always say this to everybody and the grief is, even if it's the same person and the same relationship you have to that person, it's still very unique to every individual. And it's the same in these kinds of situations. The dynamics with the relationships change and shift. And I noticed that type of shift in my life when my sister passed away. So interesting, similar to kind of how you said of,
00:16:56
Speaker
Her kind of taking over that role of mother for me when my sister passed away. She was two years younger than I was I was 21 and she was 18 I I feel that I ended up kind of the the two parts of that that she kind of What that I associated with her which were the best friend but also the person that I would fight with I then had to split between that those two things between my parents so then I
00:17:25
Speaker
my dynamic with my mom, which used to be more like we would fight more at that time. She ended up then switching to being that role of confidant and my dad being the one that I would fight with. And I remember like me being 21 and starting to notice these shifts and me even telling them, I'm like, especially with my dad, dad, I feel like I fight with you because I still need somebody to have that outlet with that I had.
00:17:54
Speaker
with Serana, you know? So it's just all those things are just so intriguing.
Realization of Mother's Absence
00:17:59
Speaker
I just, that's why I created this podcast because I'm just so curious about all the dynamics and what people navigate in their grief. So now share with us a little bit then what has been that process and what are some of those resources that you've used and I mean, and when would, did you start noticing or let's actually let's back up like either when did you start noticing
00:18:23
Speaker
those, you know, the attachment component of the aspects of it. If you want to share that, when did you start noticing that? So the attachment piece probably was actually not until much later in life, partly due to science in some ways, proximity to my education and just and really digging deeper into my particular grief experience. You know, before that, I would say
00:18:55
Speaker
You know, as a child, I don't necessarily have any memories of grief about my mom specifically in the way that I don't have memories of anybody telling me what happened. I just grew up knowing that she wasn't around. I sort of intuited everything. You know, you sort of absorb your environment. And so it probably wasn't until I was a teenager, maybe eighth grade,
00:19:21
Speaker
when I really started to recognize, you know, when you start to have these bigger milestones that you participate in yourself, you know, meaning, not the kindergartners aren't excited about their kindergarten graduation, but you know what I mean, this idea that you sort of understand what these milestones mean in your life. And not having her there was stark to me. I have this memory of,
00:19:46
Speaker
They gave us a flower during the ceremony and put on a song and said to go out and see your parents. And then I remember after hugging my dad, I had to hug my stepmom at the time and I was like, this is
00:20:01
Speaker
this is really my life, you know, that kind of quality. Um, in the sense of like, you hold no significant space for me. You are not the person that I should be hugging right now. And why the hell have we never talked about this, you know what I mean? Kind of that quality. So not until eighth grade that you actually are like, wait, we haven't even talked about this concept that so that
00:20:25
Speaker
So you were, what, 13. So you really never started to have those. That is really interesting. Not in my own family, no. Not at least that I have memories of. My aunt that I mentioned, however, the hard conversations that I had growing up were always with her. I don't know that the quality of them was necessarily about my mom to begin with. I would say it was more about the circumstances of my dad and growing up and trying to navigate what it was like to be a motherless daughter.
00:20:54
Speaker
And so I remember how much, you know, and she dealt with her own mental health challenges and was, um, was right on the cusp of, you know, the big codependency era. And so I grew up having a lot of these hard conversations with her about that. And really just that I remember her drilling into me, um, this idea that my feelings mattered, right? That it was important to talk about them. And so, um,
00:21:21
Speaker
I sort of look back on my journey as like stepping stones. Every little bit was just a little bit closer to piecing this all together, if you will. So it's not like I had never broached any of that, but certainly not with my dad and not so much in our family and not to the degree of like, mom should be here. You know, so that was really sort of the first
00:21:43
Speaker
moment of like- Well, at least recollection. Yeah, stepping into my- Yeah, at least memory of that. Whoa, what is going on here? Yeah. Yeah. And so through my teens, I really was high functioning and high achieving, but I wouldn't say I was super happy per se. I had some long-term solid friendships, but I really was more of kind of a resentful jaded kind of kid, naturally.
00:22:11
Speaker
And then when I graduated and moved away to college, I always knew that that was probably when I would start unpacking everything. My sister not only was a mother figure for me, but were similar in
Therapy and Family Dynamics
00:22:29
Speaker
a lot of ways. And so when she had gone to college, that was when she had started therapy, blah, blah, blah. So that was sort of, I had anticipated that, that I would be able to access that resource
00:22:47
Speaker
And slowly, the short description is it really just started to seep out of me, the sort of like resentment and dissatisfaction with basically everything is the best way that I can put it. I don't, I mean, I knew that it was related to my mom, but I don't think that I realized that I had a really tumultuous relationship with my father. And that was always the focus of it, you know, it was always sort of
00:23:01
Speaker
through my college campus.
00:23:12
Speaker
overshadowing everything. But there was probably some resentment probably of even just the fact that it was like, what you even said of like, why didn't we even talk about this? Like, so, you know, like why didn't even have these conversations about our emotions? Do you think that there was a little bit about resentment in that situation? You think when you were an adult that you realized, if I would have talked about my feelings, like maybe things would have been different. Did you ever
00:23:40
Speaker
that? Yeah and I think there was a piece too of you know I think I had articulated there wasn't ever like this child version of well your mom went to heaven you know but there was sort of this adult version of of everything you know what I mean sort of like what's the word like a reckoning if you almost will it kind of all everything about that time of life came out and
00:24:09
Speaker
you know, as a kid who's trying to absorb all of that and make sense of things. And I think that I just resented everything about it because I would have done everything probably entirely different. And yet, you know, I was helpless. I was a kid. And yet there's also this piece now, fast forward to who I am now and what I believe about grief and the work that I do. I think there was a piece of being so angry
00:24:42
Speaker
at the way that some people held their grief after she was gone. And yet I also can look at my own journey and understand, not understand. Yeah, understand. I can see different angles. You know what I mean? You can see different angles. And so I think for a long time, there was just so much judgment
00:25:07
Speaker
I was so judgmental because it gave me a sense of control because I was, you know, the last one to know anything as a kid because I literally was helpless, you know, kind of all of those pieces.
00:25:19
Speaker
not to keep going back to this word complex or complicated, but just so many different layers. That is true. Yeah. And it is complicated. It is complex. Was the word maybe you were seeking, was that like maybe empathetic to some extent to maybe the way that everybody else dealt? Now that you know how grief is so complex, as we were talking, again, here we go, we're going to get a dictionary and find some synonyms for complex.
00:25:46
Speaker
Do you think that maybe that empathy as you were an adult of maybe seeing, okay, so they did the best that they could with what they had, and they were dealing with their grief in each their own unique ways. And these were just the cards I was dealt because those were the cards they were dealt as well. And that's how they handled it. Is that do you think that that makes you Yeah, it's that understand.
00:26:06
Speaker
Again, here I use understanding, but it's that empathy towards those around you that, okay, they just did the best that they could, just like I did too, and that you're still doing, you know what I mean? And also holding space for too, what was interesting for me, again, kind of going back to everything I just said, I got a lot of pushback because I was always pretty open about my dissatisfaction about whatever, and people often thought that I was really hard on my dad, and I was, and yet there was also this element now here, that I can hold both pieces.
00:26:36
Speaker
that he did the best that he could, but it also wasn't enough for what I needed, for what his children needed given the traumatic circumstances. It can be both, right? Whereas before it was just the one side. No, this is not enough and that's not okay.
00:26:51
Speaker
And so it's given me the power to be able to hold both of those pieces. Whereas before it was like, I felt like I had to forfeit any compassion or empathy for myself to be able to say, well fine, he did the best he could. And so that's been kind of, this is a long winded answer to sort of tell you, that's been one of the biggest pieces in my grief journey, if you will. So we started to really unpack all of it in my early twenties and it started out really focusing on my dad, but of course it all shifted over to my mother.
00:27:23
Speaker
It's interesting because it shifts to somebody, like you're saying, somebody that you don't even have a recollection or memory of, and you're like, how is the absence of somebody that I don't even remember have such a huge impact on my life? So you kept on, your dad was the scapegoat to some extent of your relationships and everything that was going on, but it was really the true cause of it was this void of your mom not being there.
00:27:48
Speaker
That's a great way to put it. And it's what compounded the trauma, right? I don't want to insinuate to anybody and in no way am I insinuating my PTSD is my solely my father's fault. That's not what I'm saying in any way, shape or form. But it's important to me to clarify also that the children can experience these really traumatic experiences and they can still develop healthy, secure attachment and grow up.
00:28:15
Speaker
Because it's perception. Because everybody's perception and susceptibilities are different. My mom even says that my birth, she would say that I was anxious as a kid because I was born with forceps. So she's like, you had a traumatic birth. So you are, you know, the reason you're anxious. So my mom would say that I'm like, how would I even know? Because I don't even remember, you know? But she would say, I think you're anxious because you had a traumatic birth. Your body remembers.
00:28:41
Speaker
Yes. Yes. That is so true. Wow. Okay. So sorry. I keep on it. But you're saying so many things that I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry if I'm interjecting all the time, but it's just like so many things that I can totally relate to what you're saying. So then you end up doing this. How many years did you do therapy then in college and how did that unpacking kind of keep on going and for you to
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah. Find out all these different dynamics and relationships. Yeah. Um, so what's interesting actually is, um, and I, I tell this piece because I feel like it's important part of the story, but so my actual first experience with therapy was fairly traumatic. Um, so I did go to the call, you know, the center on college campus and now, you know, years later and
00:29:37
Speaker
and all the education and whatnot. Now I understand how the system works, which is still not good enough, that it was, you know, they were offering short-term counseling. And ultimately, the short version is, she basically said,
00:29:53
Speaker
You got all sorts of baggage and we can't help you in the amount of time that we have. So here's a referral list and good luck. But she didn't even like finish the session with me. You know what I mean? It was basically like, oh, so I'm broken. Okay, awesome. If I had the resources as a 20 year old who's supporting myself through school to go pay for a therapist, do you think that I would be here? You know, and so it actually, and what that did is it sort of solidified this idea of, um,
00:30:21
Speaker
I feel like when you experience loss as a child, you get all these mixed messages. On one hand, there's this idea that what kids don't know or remember won't hurt them, or they're so resilient, or insert all of these platitudes. And I'm the first to say, if I'm struggling 36 years later after she died, and I don't even remember her, first of all, that's a bunch of bullshit, right?
00:30:49
Speaker
But also too, it was really this idea of like, that because it was so severe, I didn't deserve, you couldn't even squeeze in any empathy. Does that make sense? It was like, it was too big. Not only like, was there this side of like, it shouldn't even be a,
00:31:08
Speaker
the blip on my radar, right? Because I'm so resilient or I don't remember. But on the other side, then it was also like, but it's much too big. I can't help you. You're so traumatized. We can't possibly provide you. And then that feels so, yeah, then you feel so, you leave their feeling so helpless. Like there's like, you know, and like, you're like, you know what I mean? Like, what do you mean? It's like, when somebody tells you that, like that, like what, what do you do with that kind of information when the therapist, that person you go to for help gives you that kind of perspective? Like what did,
00:31:38
Speaker
Like, I mean, that just adds so much more to your emotions. I don't even, how did you even? It was pretty devastating and it was a total deterrent. I did not go back for several more years. And that was basically out of necessity. You know, I think I had mentioned at the beginning, it was sort of like my emotional regulation was just off the charts. The anger, everything was just sort of seeping out of me.
00:32:07
Speaker
And what was happening is I was having like really dysregulated responses in terms of like a friend of mine would tap me on the back and I'd turn around and like be ready to slobber. You know what I mean? Like these responses were not matching up with where I felt inside. And so ultimately it was...
00:32:32
Speaker
Matter of necessity, but I had also gotten a referral from somebody that I trusted, right? It wasn't sort of just blindly walking to the clinic. Let me scroll through the little, let me scroll through the roller decks of therapists and choose, but this time it was somebody that actually referred you to somebody. Yeah. And so what, I think that first piece or that first experience is important and I tell it because, you know, it was that idea of, um,
00:33:01
Speaker
really changing the way that I look at my grief, right? And that to me has been one of the biggest steps or tools of my journey, if you will, that has helped me sort of break out from the expectations, not only that you sort of absorb from society and life, but also the expectations that I was putting on myself and the grief that
00:33:31
Speaker
or how do I say, sort of letting go of the lies that grief wants you to believe, right? And so,
00:33:42
Speaker
I feel like I'm jumping a hat all over the place here, but the point is... Well, you know what though? That is okay because is grief linear? Yeah, right? It goes everywhere, right? So it's okay if you jump because that is how it is. So then, yeah, what happened then? What was the... Go ahead and jump wherever you need to jump into the... Yeah, so my first therapist after that...
00:34:13
Speaker
negative experience on campus was actually it was very positive and it's important to me to say we did a lot of really good work although now again after all this time and
00:34:29
Speaker
and going back to school and whatnot. And now I recognize she wasn't trauma-informed, right? And so that was a big piece of my grief, right? That it's not just that I grieve or that I've experienced loss. I've experienced traumatic grief. I've experienced traumatic loss.
00:34:45
Speaker
And that doesn't mean it's any more important or any more drastic. It just means, yeah, there's all these different complexities. Yeah, and layers to sort of look at it through. Because it's also the fear component of knowing that somebody else can take somebody's life, just even just that aspect of just the how your mom passed away. That in itself creates mistrust.
00:35:11
Speaker
that in itself. I'm sorry, I want to do this pause. What are your studies in? What did you end up studying? Because you mentioned a lot of your studies. So what did you end up studying? Are you studying anything with psychology?
00:35:25
Speaker
Yes. So my undergrad was in communication studies and psychology and, um, I was working in title and escrow because it was the only thing that I could, uh, that was going to support my education. Um, and so after I graduated, I worked in that industry and then moved on to background screening for about five
Career Transition to Mental Health
00:35:44
Speaker
years. And, um, it was kind of coupled with this whole season of digging into therapy and really recognizing that grief was a big part of my life, even though it was.
00:35:54
Speaker
even though it felt like a new part of my life as an adult. Well, it was a new discovery for you, the fact that that was the cause of so many of the other aspects of your life, that all your life you had been grieving without even knowing. Exactly. And so it was, again, sort of back to the stepping stone idea. So anyway, I was working. The industry just wasn't fulfilling my soul, you know? And I always knew that I wanted to help people in some way, shape, or form. I didn't necessarily know how that would look.
00:36:22
Speaker
So then I decided to go back to school. I thought I was going to be a marriage and family therapist And while I was in the program figured out that again was not the right fit for me Because you know for me personally I see myself as much more of an advocate or facilitator Whereas for therapists, you know One of the main tools is the relationship that you build with each other right and that's sort of the trauma piece That's really tricky for me so anyway, I
00:36:54
Speaker
Ended up working in mental health after that and I loved it. It was the best fit for me I really felt like I was giving back and using Not only my skills and my education to be able to give back but Or how do I say this even though I wasn't providing direct services I still felt like the ways that I was supporting the program and the services was really
00:37:19
Speaker
It is giving back any even just the fact of being present in something even if you're the one like at the reception desk of something like that in in an Environment that supports that it's still giving back. You know what I mean? So it is and you wouldn't be at that at that facility You would have gotten there had you not gone through maybe the life experiences you went so I just I think it's okay. So that that is awesome. Okay, so so then you did that and then
00:37:49
Speaker
I was laid off. Unfortunately, you know, just like going back to the system, you know, the funding for my particular position, it wasn't considered essential moving forward, um, not to use current language, but there we go. Um, and so all that to say, um, it happened right around the time that our dog had broken his back and had surgery. We had bought our first house sort of life. It kind of exploded a little bit.
Joyful Jewelry Box Creation
00:38:15
Speaker
And so I was in this position of, okay, so how do I,
00:38:19
Speaker
find flexibility so that I can show up for my family, but also be able to support my family.
00:38:25
Speaker
And so ultimately that was when I opened up my Etsy shop, which is called the Joyful Jewelry Box. And that's what attracted me about your page was I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like so beautiful because it's something that is giving back in that process of also like grief. So tell me, tell us more about that, about your Etsy shop and all these gifts. Gifts or tokens or memories. Yeah, tell us.
00:38:54
Speaker
So at the time of everything I just told you about I reconnected with a local jewelry designer who needed some help and so that was kind of what got me back into before that it had always just been a little bit of a hobby that I would do with my best friend in college sometimes. And she showed me the ins and outs and ultimately it felt like okay this is a flexible way to be able to kind of ride this season out.
00:39:20
Speaker
And so in the beginning, it was mainly just bohemian, cheap jewelry, whatever I felt like designing. And I enjoyed it. But again, kind of that piece of my gut was going back to, okay, so where's the soul? What are we doing with your life? You know what I mean? Like, let's get back to the piece of bringing all this full circle. And I always knew that, you know, I wanted to honor my mom in some way.
00:39:48
Speaker
And I, excuse me, I had already started by honoring my mom with the name. My middle name is Joy. And so that was why I named it the Joyful Jewelry Box. And the background behind that is that when I was born, my family wasn't apparently a tough season and it was important to my mom that that be my middle name to sort of represent the joy that is still possible even in the midst of hard times. Yeah. And so, um,
00:40:16
Speaker
You know, that was sort of the piece that I was talking about growing up that I felt really resentful. It was sort of like, I would sort of scoff at my middle name, like the idea of that, you want me to be joyful? Like this is, no. Right? But as I grew up and really started to understand who she was and what was important to her in ways that I could honor her memory, I started to really recognize how important and significant that was. And so I knew,
00:40:43
Speaker
that I wanted to pay homage to her in some way. And so that started with the name. But then as time evolved, it was so fascinating to me that as I thought about it, as I thought about being a kid and learning about her and living without her, something that I used to do all the time was play with her jewelry box. I would dig through it and pick out all the trinkets and all my favorite pieces. And then I would go hide. I've been all my special little kid hiding spots.
00:41:12
Speaker
And it really was just this little ritual that I had that helped me feel close to her, I think, right? And so it was fascinating to sort of have all of this come full circle after it had already began, right? Out of necessity, this idea of, I didn't even know that that was a connection I had to her or her memory. And so once I kind of pieced that all together, it really just,
00:41:40
Speaker
fell into place in the way that I just, again, that stepping stone, again, of like every little bit has been leading me to this, at least for this season, you know? And so what I do is I try and now take that concept and infuse those ideas into jewelry so that other people, because a lot of people don't necessarily have their mother's jewelry still, or maybe their mourning,
00:42:10
Speaker
you know, they're grieving their father or a male in their life, so there is no jewelry or whatever. So the point is, um, you know, my family symbol for my mom is a dragonfly. So I take all sorts of things like that. Dragonflies, butterflies, sparrows, um, hawks, all those kinds of things. And then I'll pair them with burst stones and initial charms and kind of all of that. So it's like a little, a tangible representation of their memory, so to speak.
00:42:38
Speaker
So I just documented the chills I got. Like I literally, as you're talking, I'm like, okay, let me screenshot my goosebumps right now. I just didn't want to interrupt you, but I, because I interrupt so many times anyway, I've already interrupted you so many times. I do it too, don't worry about it. I like biting my tongue. I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to tell her I've got goosebumps, but I'm going to hold it.
00:43:01
Speaker
when you talked about the jewelry box and just that as a child, that is the connection that you did, but that you actually didn't, that memory didn't come up till after you had developed your Etsy shop. Like the fact that those memories were there, but that didn't come up to you till after you develop this, like, and this finding that kind of full circle kind of feeling, oh my gosh, I like literally that just,
00:43:30
Speaker
brought me chills. And then the part when you said about dragonflies, so was it last, I think two years ago, one of my friends said that she had, that her spirit animal was, I forget which one was at that moment. I'm like, oh, I don't know what my spirit animal is. I don't know. And then all of a sudden I started seeing dragonflies everywhere, everywhere. And I'm like,
00:43:53
Speaker
And I'm like, wait, are they maybe, maybe it's just a season. No, but then everywhere it was dragonfly everywhere. So right now when you said dragonflies, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to have to check out her. Oh, I love it. Thank you. So now in this whole journey,
00:44:12
Speaker
because I miss the part I'd never even asked you like with your how you you're now you know in a relationship you have your dog how how did that where did that part of your relationship come in and was it after college during college how was it so I actually met my husband right when I was graduating college and the fun part of that is one of my childhood best friends had actually set us up and we didn't even realize that was
00:44:39
Speaker
that that was what was happening. Oh, wait, wait. Your friend set you up, but you didn't know you guys were being set up. No. So what's cool is that, like I said, I ended up moving and growing up into a tiny little town. And just by happenstance, my two best friends from there, we all ended up in the same area. And so while we were living here, the friend that I'm referring to, she was in long distance with somebody still in our hometown.
00:45:09
Speaker
And my husband knew him through all of these random ways. And so her husband was down here visiting her over one college weekend. And they said, Hey, we're going to go barbecue. Just come with us. Like as nonchalant as could be, um, which I loved. And what was really cool about it is that he.
00:45:27
Speaker
had spent time in my tiny little town. It's called Tuolum, and so people can barely even pronounce it, let alone have any part of it. Yeah, like Tuolumne, like Tuolumne, Tuolumne, but it's with a T, Tuolumne. Yeah, so it's a Native American name, and the Miwuk tribe, it's T-U-O-L-U-M-N-E. So the Miwuk tribe, what was in, is that the tribe that was in that part of California?
00:45:52
Speaker
Yeah. So just up the hill from our little area or where my house was, if you will, there's a little, has to call it a town. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Good. Called Miwok. And so, and in fact, that's not the only tribe, but the point is it's a native American name and it was just, people don't know about it, let alone have they been there. So that was really neat.
00:46:13
Speaker
The short version is we really hit it off. And what's been interesting too, kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation, I feel like this is always an interesting part when I tell my story. You know, in terms of like the relational trauma, I imagine that people probably think that that means that my marriage is just a hot mess or that I- No, no, no. That's actually, that's part of the reason I was gonna ask because then it's like, you don't even know what the,
00:46:41
Speaker
what it would look like to even see that type of relationship because you didn't, you grew up with your dad seeing him marry somebody else and then another, you know what I mean? It's that, so that's why I was even curious. So yeah, so tell us what that, what that means. I would say certainly my experience, you know, kind of entrenched in me, the idea that I really wanted that not to be my story.
00:47:08
Speaker
And again, you only have so much control. So I'm not trying to imply that this was ever anything that my dad wanted. But it was important to me to really be, that my marriage was going to be a really positive part of my life. And it's fascinating. Certainly there's some challenges that we have because of my attachment trauma, but I noticed it more in my friendships and my other relationships than I do with us.
00:47:36
Speaker
Um, and in fact, I think a big piece of that is, um, I didn't do a lot of dating before him. Um, I had one other serious relationship and it was a positive experience, but it also was, um, you know, I had enough awareness to know the. What word do I want to use?
00:47:58
Speaker
The life experiences that I carry. I was like, I don't want to imply baggage or issues in no way, shape or form. I know it's so, words are so, they carry so much meaning and it's so interesting how just even picking a word that it's sometimes you're like, wait, if I say this word, are people going to think of it as a, because then we, you know what I mean? It's interesting, like how we have to think so much about
00:48:22
Speaker
what words we choose just to simplify, just to explain something. And it's important to me because I think, especially with grief, we've internalized so much reasoning and platitudes and explanations that it's really important to me to articulate, when I'm explaining my experience, what my experience is, doesn't mean that that's what it has to be for everybody. No, and that is the... Yeah, that was your story and that's a thing and something that is so...
00:48:51
Speaker
In relation to this podcast, that is the whole reason I do these interviews because every single person that I've interviewed has had a completely different journey in their grief. That's why there can't be really a manual and honestly, there can't really be exactly certain steps because how could there be a particular diagram
00:49:13
Speaker
when we're just so unique, each individual and how everything happens. Okay, so then with this, you were saying you didn't want to use the word baggage back to that part. Yeah, I just think that I recognize that my life's experiences, the weight of them, he was not able to carry that and share that with me. And I just was grateful that I had enough awareness, right?
00:49:43
Speaker
for lack of a better term, but I think that that was also out of protection because of what I said before that, that I was determined that I was not going to end up in a similar dysfunctional situation, right? And again, that's not necessarily practical. You know what I mean? Nobody knew my mother was gonna be murdered, right? So there's an element of like just taking control of life and gripping it. And that's not always necessarily wise, but I appreciate that I knew enough to know that my partner
00:50:13
Speaker
was gonna have to carry this with me in that, or not carry it with me, but that was, you know, like I hear about so many relationships. Compassionate about your experience. Yeah. So many people don't experience grief before marriage. And then you hear about one partner that, you know, a parent has,
00:50:42
Speaker
Excuse me, they've lost a parent or they've lost it Whoever someone significant in their life and their partner doesn't get it you know what I mean because they haven't been through it and and the additional risk that that can create on top of I mean we already know and we've talked about a little bit about how much relationships change and After loss and because of grief and whatnot and that's challenging in and of itself
00:51:09
Speaker
And so that was just not something that I wanted to take on. I was not going to be arguing about my grief with my significant other. Does that make sense? Like it was a non-negotiable for me. Why would you have to defend yourself the way you feel or explain yourself of like, today I want to stay in bed or today I want, you know, like when somebody wouldn't comprehend. Yeah. So then how then when you met then your husband at this barbecue,
00:51:37
Speaker
then how was that then your now husband, how was that different?
Meeting Husband Brandon
00:51:41
Speaker
How did you know that he would be somebody that would be able to accompany you in this journey of living with grief? Um, you know, this is sort of a funny example because it's not related to grief at all. And it's also interesting because I think that when we met that was, I was still just starting to crack it open a little bit, but, um, he is older than me. He's nine years older than me.
00:52:07
Speaker
And so it was interesting because I was 22, right? So I was very used to, you know, younger men who were not talking or thinking about commitment or marriage or family or any of that. And as we were getting to know each other and I was making remarks about whether or not I wanted to have children or sort of who I saw myself as in the future, I remember one day he,
00:52:36
Speaker
came over on his lunch break and wanted to have a conversation about these things. And I was just floored. Um, because, you know, again, if we're going to generalize, um, I try not to do that very much, but sort of, you know, in your early twenties in college, typically girls are the one women are the people thinking about those things and prioritizing those things. And generally speaking, men are not, you know, and so, um,
00:53:07
Speaker
It just spoke to me on a level of like, okay, well, not only are you different, like you're really, you're really into this, but you're also somebody who's looking for commitment. You know what I mean? That you are approaching these conversations with me, that you want to know what you can expect from me, right? Sort of that reciprocal, not even just reciprocal, but, um, that he went out on a limb and sort of started that work. It showed to me like an emotional maturity and,
00:53:35
Speaker
Oh, that is a good point. Yeah, that means that, yeah, with the whole thing with emotional intelligence and things like that, so that emotional maturity allowed you to know that he'd be somebody that would be able to comprehend to some level, even if he had not lived the type of grief you had, would be able to be compassionate in your journey because of those
00:53:59
Speaker
things, the little signs you started seeing. This is good. You said you didn't want to go into family and marriage therapy. But that's a good tip for anybody looking for a partner. You know what I mean? A lifelong partner. Look into these little signs of things that you see that may not necessarily be completely related to what you're going through, but that you see that they'd be able to be a good fit and companion.
00:54:29
Speaker
That's awesome. I appreciate you. I appreciate that that stands out to you, because that is something I did realize that a few years ago. And I was like, that would that to me is actually, but not that I'm so wise, but that that's a unique part of my experience that not a lot of people have. Right. That, you know, as you experience lost as children that you none carry that into the relationship as opposed to experience it together on the other side. You know, and I think too, there just was an element of knowing that
00:54:59
Speaker
uh, are not knowing, but no, you know, that gut piece to me, my, I really try and rely on my instinct, um, as much as, as much as possible. And there just was an element of like, uh, adaptability with me or, um, I don't know how to, how am I trying to articulate this?
00:55:27
Speaker
that he was willing to learn from my experience, I guess, right? In the way of like, that he was curious, he was curious, even just the element of curiosity of wanting to get to know your story, instead of being scared of something he did not know and or did not even know how he'd face.
00:55:54
Speaker
yeah actually that's a really good way to put it um but also too like i don't know that a lot of what i
00:56:02
Speaker
practice or believe now was conscious before, right? I think that I slowly, over time, as I grew up, figured out, well, that doesn't fit. Well, this doesn't fit. Well, that doesn't apply to me. Well, that's not my experience. You know, kind of all of those things. Once I started to really grow up and say there is no right way to grieve, there is no timeline to grieve, there is no kind of all of these different ideas.
00:56:26
Speaker
There was an element that I knew that he was open to that, right? That he didn't feel like he knew the whole world, that he trusted my experience and wanted to support it for me however I articulated it or however it was showing up in that season.
00:56:42
Speaker
Um, so I don't even really know that I'm answering the question other than to say that there was a willingness to sort of walk to like figure it out with me, right? Because I still don't necessarily know what's going to work or what's not going to work. Sometimes the things that do work, they don't work on this day. Sometimes, you know, milestones are horrible and other times you're like, what's the big deal?
00:57:04
Speaker
you know, yeah, there was a willingness to sort of like, that is so awesome. You're so that is so true. It's like, Oh, birthday. Oh, it was her birthday. Yeah. It was her anniversary yesterday. Oh, I didn't even notice this year. You know what I mean? Or while other years you'd be like, you know, that is so Oh my gosh, you're just saying so many things that I can relate to that I hope that others listening resonate with what you're saying as much as I am because I'm totally right there with you, girl. I totally appreciate it.
00:57:33
Speaker
I'm glad. I'm glad too, especially since we didn't do like the, you know, the intro call. I was like, I gotta make sure I get to give up some good nuggets. I love these nuggets. I love them. That's awesome. So how many years have you guys been married? So we just had our ninth anniversary in May and we have, yeah. And we have been together, uh, 14 years.
00:58:00
Speaker
Wow. And then you have you said one dog, one dog. Yeah. And he's just one. And he's very much our special little guy. I mean, I know that
00:58:12
Speaker
Everybody loves their animals, but were those suckers who he is our kid. No, no, no. Actually, one of the journeys I share, one of my friends, the first grief experience she had had was her dog who she'd had had for like 17 years, and it was the person. It was that special
00:58:33
Speaker
I want to say person, but now I'm the one searching for words. It was her special someone who had been with her for all her milestones. That grief experience for her was hard. I can know how when a dog is that close to you. Is this the dog you mentioned earlier about having back surgery or something like that? Yeah.
00:58:57
Speaker
for lack of a better term a bone spur that ruptured and so literally we woke up one morning and he was paralyzed and so we rushed him into emergency surgery and that we didn't actually know if it would work thankfully it did but it was just you know for the first year after that we had to I mean he needed 24-7 care and we had to
00:59:20
Speaker
help him learn how to walk and go to the bathroom again and kind of all those things. So not only is he, you know, our kid, but then having sort of this really intense experience with him just added to it. So when you talk about, you know, your other guests, I just
00:59:37
Speaker
When people and pet loss, even though I'm not there yet with him, I've experienced it before and I know it's going to be a whole new level. You went through the worry of when you went through that surgery. You know what I mean? You went through the worries.
00:59:54
Speaker
That's it. You know what I mean? You've already gone through the stress of seeing your dog be in pain and go through that. So no, I told my husband the other day, I was hugging my dog, she's three years old. And I was just kissing her and I told Carlos, I'm like, there's some days that I just like think of like, I don't even know what I'm gonna do when she thought of her not being around. And my husband then says, I know what
01:00:28
Speaker
Damn it. Yes, Carlos. Although I'm not hosting that episode. It was so funny because it's true. Sometimes even just that fear of... You know how sometimes we fear... How do I say this?
01:00:56
Speaker
Okay, sometimes I've heard of people, for example, not wanting to get attached to something knowing that they may lose it, right? So we end up missing out on certain things or experiences or relationships or anything because we know that there is an element of that knowing that that is not always going to be there.
01:01:19
Speaker
and making our decisions in life based on that fear of something that we know is inevitable, and that happens to everybody. In this case, let's say the aspect of death, just if we were not to live our lives and create the relationships that we do,
01:01:39
Speaker
just because we were fearful of the knowing what life would look like after we've loved so hard something to then not have them present in our life, then what would be the point of life? Even though these thoughts of me hugging my dog and knowing this because I've already felt what grief looks like and to know that eventually I will feel it, it doesn't make me any less
01:02:07
Speaker
I mean, I'm not a grief expert. You know what I mean? Just because I've got, it doesn't mean that I could just suddenly, oh, the next time I go through that, I'm just going to groose on through. No, because every time I've experienced grief, you know, it's still a different journey. You know what I mean? You still have to go through it. It's still there. You just nailed something really important in the way of
Nature of Grief
01:02:34
Speaker
Because you said that, you know, that you're not a grief expert. And I, my rebuttal was to say, but you are an expert on your own experience and we are. And yet, but you just made a great point in the sense of we can only be so much of an expert even around experience because who knows what it's going to look like when it comes back, right?
01:02:54
Speaker
because we will change. So I'll tell people in that journey of even grief, like for example, I tell people grief doesn't go away. We just, I mean, and I'm saying, okay, let me, I'll rephrase that grief when it comes to do is especially when it has to do with death.
01:03:09
Speaker
definitely does not go away. It just changes. It transforms because we grow. The lapses between maybe times in which it was really tough or the times in which we don't want to get out of bed or things like that, maybe longer. Like, oh, wow. I actually, like you said, like, oh, wait, I forgot. Even today was a big milestone. I didn't really remember.
01:03:33
Speaker
And again, it comes in and out of waves. But then also because we start changing, we never know what other aspects of even ourselves may change that when we experience life again, and again, the dynamics of the next loss or whatever are gonna be different than whatever other, I don't like to use the word loss and I just did, but the next death or grief experience you go through, we will be a different person. The dynamic with that person would be different. So therefore how we,
01:04:00
Speaker
how we respond to that will be different. So I never tell somebody, even though I have had my sister pass away, I've had my mom pass away, I cannot tell you I understand you. I can't tell you that because I am not you. I can only say I can relate to part of your story because I've gone through it myself. I've gone through a grief experience. So I have that relate. I can relate to it. I can't tell you that I know what you are going through because I'm not you.
01:04:29
Speaker
and therefore I am not me myself either when I experience it again later on, because I'll be a different version of me. You know what I mean? So I can't guarantee that I'll navigate through the next journey either. I hope I do in some way or another, but it doesn't guarantee it. So actually talking about that, then have you experienced, since your mom's death then, have you experienced death again in any other aspects of your life that you've had to then deal with grief?
01:04:58
Speaker
You know, I have and yet not to that degree by any means. You know, my grandparents were young, excuse me, I was young when all my grandparents passed away.
01:05:15
Speaker
And it's interesting because I'm finding myself sort of comparing in my mind, which I don't like to do in any way, shape or form. I know because it's so different. But it's how our mind works, I think. We sometimes just do that. Yeah. It's more the level of understanding, I would say. I have not experienced significant grief from death, if you will, since I have started navigating this work more deeply.
01:05:45
Speaker
So there's pieces of my life where I have, but it still didn't quite, and I don't like to use this word, but whatever. For lack of a better one is what I mean. It didn't compare to my mom. I already knew the worst pain. So to have something else be to that level again will have to be, in my mind, my husband, my sister, my dog.
01:06:14
Speaker
relationships of that kind of nature. And yet, it's funny because we literally just talked about this and this was sort of in the back of my mind and it's interesting because I don't talk about it very much and I hate to create the idea that compares to my dog but right when I was meeting Brandon, my childhood cat had
01:06:43
Speaker
passed away, and that was kind of a whole thing. I'll spare you all the details, but my senior year of high school, the house had burned down, and so he ended up moving to- Oh my God. Yeah, so- Oh, you've been through- That right there is a huge major grief experience as well. Actually, yes, it was. In fact, I feel sort of silly that I don't- Acknowledged? That I don't naturally think about-
01:07:13
Speaker
I do but I don't naturally go there because I think I said earlier because I compartmentalized so much. It was the day before my senior year of high school started and I ended up living with extended family for the year and it's so funny like now as an adult looking back you're just like what?
01:07:31
Speaker
I still ended up, I still worked that entire year. I still got straight A's, like it's unreal. That says, doesn't that, do you will like go back and be like go Lindsay? Like do you go back and like be like that so proud of the teenage version of you? I do. That went through all that and still like wow. I do. And then there's also the piece of me and this isn't a, you know, I don't want to butcher the phrase, but you know something about of
01:08:02
Speaker
Forgive yourself for how you survived when you didn't know better, right? So at the time ultimately it just ran around just trying to make myself valuable To anybody and everybody and just achieve and just right actually sort of yeah
01:08:16
Speaker
found my identity in that resilience, if you will. And I still do to some degree, although now it's a lot more realistic. I think the board was like, yeah, it was very much like, I'm so strong, I'm still sorry for me. Whereas now it's both pieces. Yes, I can do all of these things, and yet it still doesn't erase the fact that I'm living with a lot of pain.
01:08:41
Speaker
Yes. And that it's okay. And that there is still, there's still strength in showing those vulnerable parts of you and the parts that are hurting, that there's still strength in that and resilience, even if you show those sides of you. Yeah.
01:08:57
Speaker
Exactly. So you went back to, okay, so the cat, sorry, because I interrupted when you're like, my house burned down. Like, wait, wait, wait. No, I know. It's fine. No worries. See? And it's funny. You can sort of see the compartmentalization even just in how I've handled this conversation. That is huge. That's a huge thing to go through. It is huge.
01:09:18
Speaker
And what was sad about it was besides the fact that, you know, I was lost our family home and displaced from my dad, but you know, we lost all my mom's belongings, right? So it felt like another punch in the gut in the sense of like,
01:09:32
Speaker
the connections that we had, yeah, the connections we had to her were gone. And so that was, that was a big, that was a big piece of it. Pictures, pictures, everything, yeah. In my baby book, yeah. Oh. And so, thank you. That was, that's, yeah, I mean, of course anything with her is irreplaceable, but that is irreplaceable, right? Because she was the voice of that experience of that season of my life, and then now even that's gone.
01:10:01
Speaker
But so after that, the cat ended up moving to college with me. He was great. I loved him. His name was Snickers. And he ended up, towards the end of his life, returning home to live on the property with my dad. And I still remember I was getting on the freeway after work driving to Brandon's house. And my dad told me on the phone and kind of just off the cuff.
01:10:29
Speaker
like nonchalant. Kind of. You probably didn't know how to break it to you. So it was like, yeah. And so I just, that, I remember that being really significant for, I mean, not only because he was my animal and, um, but that was the closest kind of death besides grandparents, um, you know, since my mom. And what was interesting at the time was again, because I didn't understand,
01:10:59
Speaker
how much grief I carried and how that would impact me. I was devastated that week, like called in sick to work, like just not, well, you would have thought a human had died. And I remember my boss at the time, and this was such an interesting added layer, but she, her animals, her cats were her kids too, like they were very important to her.
01:11:27
Speaker
And I remember her being so annoyed with me. So annoyed that I didn't like just suck it up. And I was like, I don't, why don't you get it? I don't, why don't you get it? Really? And this is somebody else. Wait, I thought that you were gonna say completely the opposite when you said she also, that her animals were also like her babies. I thought it was gonna be completely opposite. Like that there was gonna be a conversation about it. I'm sorry, what?
01:11:58
Speaker
Well, no, no, I thought she was going to be empathetic. Yeah. No, I thought she was going to be empathetic. I did too. And, um, and we never had a direct conversation where she was like, you shouldn't feel this way, but we'll sort of imply. And, uh, and so it was very significant in terms of, um, being aware of what other people thought of grief.
01:12:25
Speaker
or other people's right, because at least with my mom, and I'm so sorry for anybody in your audience where this isn't the case, because generally speaking, people have not said terrible things to me. And I know that they do to a lot of other grievers, but generally speaking, I think the nature of my mother's death,
01:12:50
Speaker
There really was no way to sort of compartmentalize or create any pleasantries or platitudes out of that per se. Like the being they at least that they wouldn't do that at least start their sentences with at least. Yeah. But I definitely felt that in this other experience. Right. And so it just was a. It was what's the word I'm looking for.
01:13:18
Speaker
It was eye-opening. It was really eye-opening in terms of my understanding of what adults really thought of grief outside of my really extreme example. My really extreme experience where you'd have to be like the biggest asshole to try and like create some meaning out of it, you know? So...
01:13:44
Speaker
Anyway, that was sort of a long ramble. Yes, actually, I've had a lot of other grief-related experiences. Yes, huge ones, huge ones. And that's the thing, a lot of times then we... Like you were saying, not only comfort mentalize, but then we end up minimizing some of these experiences because this other one is so big that then we end up even minimizing them in our journey while at the same time they may actually play
01:14:12
Speaker
of an even bigger part or in some ways in the story of our life and what direction our life ends up taking us. So we don't know what each of these things takes, why it's there and what growth we need to go through and why we're experiencing it. But for you then, all these things have
01:14:38
Speaker
built you up to now be somebody who not only has this space, then an Etsy, which I'm going to get your, I don't know, the website and be able to put it in the show notes so people know where to go. What other things do you have in your jewelry, in the joyful jewelry? Am I saying right? Joyful jewelry? Box, yes. Box jewelry. What other things do you have in your shop? Yeah.
01:15:04
Speaker
It started out as jewelry and then I expanded into keepsakes as well. So I have a lot of inspirational and motivational key chains and whatnot. But then I also have some apparel too, which is pretty cool. I have hats that are embroidered with the word joy, but that was actually in my mom's handwriting. So that's really cool. Not only is it sort of like full circle of the message, but literally full circle of her message, you know, and her
01:15:33
Speaker
memory out in the world. And then I also started to slowly branch out into grief resources as well.
01:15:42
Speaker
Perfect. So when people go to your website, they would see then what kind of resources are available because you've probably, of course, in your time, especially from college years till now, when you started basically doing all your grief therapy and support, you've used a lot of grief resources. So what kind of resources do you have then on your website that people would be able to find?
01:16:06
Speaker
It's sort of two prongs, if you will. The primary thing that I look at it is that I provide online grief support through my Instagram in the way of really just trying to create a safe space and community for individuals to be able to have that support and that connection even outside of products or my shop or whatever, but really to be able to
01:16:35
Speaker
change the way they think about grief, right? And challenge the ideas that they've learned out there in the world. So that's sort of one primary resource is that I really, a lot of my content, not a lot, all of my content is really trying to facilitate these hard and honest conversations. But also what I've done is that I've really taken, or what I feel that is different in my approach, you know, I think that there's a lot of,
01:17:03
Speaker
new grief experts and advocates out there who were doing incredible things but what was important for me that changed so much was really just changing what I believed about grief and I think I talked about that a little bit earlier but this idea that it really doesn't matter what the world thinks I know that my grief matters I know that there's no timeline on it I know
01:17:28
Speaker
that there's no wrong way to greet, you know what I mean? Those kinds of things. So what I did is I, um, without even really recognizing it, these are just little things that I would just internalize and really just build these messages up in my mind over the years as I encountered things that I thought were just junk. Um, and so then I took all of that and wrote an affirmation deck. And so what I love about that is, um,
01:17:54
Speaker
All sorts of things it's been it's been such a crucial tool and really sort of creating that accountability in terms of changing your thoughts Right without getting that out on paper or sort of looking at it Affirmations are huge. Yeah. Yeah, I mean we can just sort of it can it can be hard to sort of understand What the reframe is or sort of untangle all of those thoughts. So what's really cool is that we take a lot of these different concepts and
01:18:25
Speaker
Not only are they true in and of themselves, but then on the back of the cards, what's incredible is that we've taken the different lines that we often hear from the world or even of our own criticism of our own grief, right? This idea that I should be over it by now, that I'm broken, that I'm stuck, that I'm defined by my grief. Move on. Yeah, all these ideas. So what we did,
01:18:51
Speaker
Because this was a collaboration project, I should say, with abundant affirmations. She already had her business. I had this idea and said, I want to write this deck. Will you help me? So it was a joint project. But what's cool is so you've got the affirmations on the front. But then on the back, you've got that lie or these negative beliefs.
01:19:14
Speaker
written out so that you can literally and intentionally reframe it with the idea on the front, right? So it's not just refuting the idea that there's no, or that I should be over it by now. No, not only not that, but there is no timeline, right? And so it's really solidifying this idea of giving myself and helping others give themselves more grace, space, compassion, truth, permission,
01:19:43
Speaker
to really just let their journey be what it is, right? Because so often we jump in and we just judge all over ourselves. And it just is not effective. That judgment component that you just said, it is so true because we judge others way of grieving, like the person that was judging how you were grieving over your cat, just because her experience, or she would think, I don't know, because she maybe,
01:20:11
Speaker
her pets were still alive, so she didn't know what it looked like. So she was judging you by how you were doing it. But then we then sometimes end up questioning, we're like, wait, am I doing this right? Like, is this okay? And then doubting that the way that we're grieving is okay or not. Like me not deleting my mom's phone number from my phone and then judging myself, you know, like that it took me two years to do that. But you know what, I'm like, no, but I'm not
01:20:37
Speaker
I'm not ready. It's okay. While somebody else could be like, what? She hasn't really, you know what I mean? Things like that. It's so interesting because like you said, being part of this community of people that talk about the subject of grief, I hear when I was starting this, I thought it was like this new con. I mean, literally, I just started this podcast.
01:21:00
Speaker
Just this year but Last year when I started the aspect of grief facilitating and grief coaching like it I thought that the way that I thought about grief was unique as well because I would because the things I would read didn't necessarily match what I felt like the whole thing of the timeline or or the order or things I'm like, but I don't so I honestly don't read that many books about grief about the actual psychology around it because they don't make sense
01:21:30
Speaker
to me, not personally, to my experience. And so to hear that as you're saying it yourself, that it's like that we have similar, you know, ways of seeing that. And every time I talk to people, they feel the same. I'm like, wait, then who's the one writing these theories? I know, right? Oh my gosh, so true.
01:21:54
Speaker
Then who's writing the theories? Because if a lot of the people I've talked to that have gone through grief don't necessarily see it that there's an order or something, then why are we still following a particular order or thinking that it has to fall into a particular category? I don't know.
01:22:14
Speaker
No, it's like I'm just quite I'm just wondering. No, I've gone there. I've gone down that road. And you know, please anybody come argue with me, but we're not even arguing with us because I'm I'm with you there. They don't have to come and argue with us about this subject. Yeah. One idea I did have when I was writing my thesis because so
01:22:40
Speaker
Oh, you wrote it about, did you write it about grief? I did. Yeah. So it's called the forgotten Warner's traumatic loss during infancy. And so it's much more now again, it was, um, but now I understand, of course, the, the lens is grief and death and whatnot, but much more, um, the attachment piece of it and how that fits into everything. Um,
01:23:04
Speaker
But for a couple of reasons, I mean, I was just sort of tiptoeing into that and a lot of research, obviously. We've just made so many strides with trauma in the last few years, the last decade, really. But, so I did a big analysis of Kubler-Ross and ultimately, and you probably know this, so I'm not trying to be redundant to you, but for your audience, you know, her theory was developed around terminal patients, right?
01:23:35
Speaker
And ultimately it sort of broke out from there and the world got ahold of it and here we are decades later. And my sort of opinion about why even though, because there are other grief theories, there have been plenty of other people who followed suit and we continue.
01:23:54
Speaker
We continue to latch onto her theory. You just said the word latch. It's as if we cannot move on from ideas and even just going to even what we're going through in this world right now, in this moment in 2020, of some of the attachments that we have to certain things of how things were done and we're still not able to release that. Sorry.
01:24:20
Speaker
Right now that you said latch, we just have this tendency of just attaching. Okay. So then in your thesis, then you're like basically like, why, if all these other things have come up, do we still go back to the original quote unquote way in which it was presented?
01:24:36
Speaker
Yes.
Writing and Organizing Thoughts on Grief
01:24:37
Speaker
And so actually I didn't write about that part, but I wish that I had now because it just feels like it gives us a sense of control. Go back to school and write it again. I know, right? Go back and do it again. Well, it'll be in my book someday. But this idea that I feel like what it does, it takes this really ambiguous, scary, dark, never-ending whole, for lack of a better term, I think that
01:25:06
Speaker
I don't know what it's like to think about death without knowing it. So forgive my assumptions there. But I think it gives an idea of control. It gives an idea of...
01:25:22
Speaker
compartmentalization, it creates organization, it takes all those scary, messy feelings that we have no idea what we're going to do with and all the uncertainty about, wait, what I'm gonna have to live without my person. And it gives them some sense of control and understanding. So
01:25:40
Speaker
That aspect of control, that is huge because it's basically implementing a manual of control for something that you live that you had no control over. Yeah. That is basically what it is.
Political Aspects and Evolving Theories
01:25:57
Speaker
I think there's an element too, not to get all political, but life is political. I think there's a function of
01:26:06
Speaker
patriarchy to, you know, you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and move on and stuff it down. And right. And so I think it creates sort of facilitates all of those pieces, especially too, because that was a big, you know, the, I might be wrecking the calendar a little bit, but in terms of Kugler Ross's research and, um, war veterans coming back. And, um, I feel like that's somewhere within the realm of the same season, um, or decade, you know? And so.
01:26:37
Speaker
Oh, and you know, I've never read any of the books about that. So I'm like, I just know that the whole steps of grief, but I've never even I don't even know the time period. So you've you've educated me on even the timeframe in which it was even, you know, that that theory or the steps were even created. So thank you for that.
01:26:57
Speaker
of 70s and 80s. Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of things that we even go back to even further in life, like in psychology, Freud or this, you know what I mean? How many times did people not refer to things that were studied so long ago? And science is always evolving, right? So it's like all those, some of the things that we end up still studying are things that are theories that probably don't even relate to even the now.
01:27:23
Speaker
But anyway, they're just the basis of learning. But I appreciate so much everything that you've taught. And I could probably go on here another hour chatting about this. I probably could too. I'm sorry. Oh, no. Oh, no, no. It's just something I'm just so fascinated of.
Platforms and Vulnerability in Grief
01:27:42
Speaker
talking and discovering all these different ways of people dealing with their grief, being able to, not dealing, that sounds kind of, but you know what I mean, how they navigate their grief and also just the way that they then use that for the good of others. And the fact that you've created these platforms, not only your Etsy shop, but then your Instagram account, which
01:28:04
Speaker
By the way, again, the stories I've seen and how you just show up so really just so vulnerability and allowing to show the different layers of that emotion. I just think it's so important because it just gives that relatability to somebody else that may be experiencing and feeling like, oh my gosh, it's okay for me to feel this way. And that is just, I think that that is probably one of the biggest
01:28:29
Speaker
gifts we can give back as somebody that's gone through grief is just allowing our grief to show sometimes, allowing it to show so that others that are experiencing it can be like, oh, okay, I don't have to put it all together and keep it all together. It's okay for me to fall apart once in a while.
01:28:46
Speaker
and still have a successful life. I appreciate that so much. Thank you for showing up in the world that way and for bringing the different platforms that you provide. I'm excited for our listeners to be able to go on and check it out and see all the different resources that they could use in their own grief and maybe also as gifts for somebody else. Sometimes people don't know what to give somebody else that
01:29:12
Speaker
has gone through a grief experience. So these affirmation cards or things like that, it's just a way of you showing somebody that you were thinking of them in that process of their grief journey. So thank you. Thank you, Lindsay, for
Sharing Stories to Inspire Others
01:29:26
Speaker
everything. Absolutely. Thank you, Kendra. I really appreciate it. I would do too.
01:29:36
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode and if you feel inspired in some way
01:29:59
Speaker
to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so. Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.