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The Best of Every Story Ever, Vol. 1
1.5k Plays2 months ago
Hey everyone! While the show is still on hiatus due to Hurricane Helene, we're taking a look back at some of the best moments in Every Story Ever! Relive the magic with our discussions of...
Judge Dredd: Choose Your Own X-Mas (Comics Catch-Up, December 2019)
Avengers: Whirlwinds (ESE, January 2020)
Heathcliff: Poop Butt (ESE, February 2020)
Captain America: Seeing Red (ESE, June 2020)
Doomsday Clock (ESE, May 2020)
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Transcript
Introduction: Hurricane Impact on Recording
00:00:02
Speaker
Hey everybody, it's Chris here. As you may have heard, a hurricane hit North Carolina recently. ah Matt is fine, as are Marlene and the cats, but ah he is unable to record the show
2020 Highlights and Gratitude
00:00:17
Speaker
right now. So to tide you over until we are able to get back to our regularly scheduled episodes of War Rocket Ajax, I decided to put together a little best of every story ever.
00:00:28
Speaker
So please enjoy some of the highlights from the year 2020, including the entire second half of the show being our review of Doomsday Clock, which is maybe not as fun as some of the other things on the list, but I think it was a good discussion. ah Thank you to everyone who has reached out, and thank you for supporting the show. You can always do that at patreon dot.com slash wararchadejax.
Show Format and Comic Ranking
00:00:54
Speaker
Matt will be back very soon. and we will talk to you then
00:01:13
Speaker
what we're doing is we're taking from our listeners of three comic book stories, and then we are placing those stories on the list from best to worst comic book stories of all time.
Judge Dredd's 'Choose Your Onexmas'
00:01:39
Speaker
Let's talk about this story, Matt. um yeah Do you want to talk about what what I texted you when I was done reading it? ah Yes, we can we can relay the whole exchange. You texted me this dread story is so good. I can't stand it. it And I said it's outrageous. It's infuriating how good it it is.
00:02:05
Speaker
Look, we we all know. And if you're a listener of this show, you you know. Al Ewing is a smart comics creator. He is a thoughtful comics creator. He puts a lot of like really interesting stuff into his work. This thing is structurally so fucking good, I can't stand it. So here's the concept. This story is called Choose Your Onexmos.
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah, which by the way, it's it's barely Christmasy. It's an action story set at Christmas. Yeah, it's a Shane Black movie. Yeah, I think that's a very good comparison. ah but But what it is is a comic choose your own adventure story starring a character named Jackson Packard, who you can literally like jump around from panel to panel as it tells you to do and go to different endings and see different like fates of Jackson Packard where he's he dies in all these different ways. Yeah. And read it as a choose your own adventure story, which is what it tells you to do at the beginning. Yes. Or you can read it sequentially and read it all the way through and realize that
00:03:23
Speaker
an industrial accident has led Jackson Packard to essentially be existing in multiple different lives in the same timeline. So Judge Dredd keeps seeing the same guy. Like by the time you get to the end of the story, he's like, you're the third one of you I've seen today.
00:03:49
Speaker
And it's because of this industrial accident that has like kind of flushed him out of reality. That's that's put him in, in these multiple existences within the reality. And dread has to destroy the machinery that put him here to bring it back to normal. And then he just gets arrested at the end of that story. But it's, it's so clever.
00:04:19
Speaker
Like it's so like kind of brilliantly sci-fi in the way that it happens. It is a, it's a choose your own adventure story, right? Like it's, it's a chooseable path of adventure, which A, you know, I love and B are complicated to write, especially when they kind of, you know, dovetail back into each other. It's a choose your own adventure story from the perspective of Jackson Packard.
00:04:45
Speaker
if you read it like that. It's a Judge Dredd story that follows Judge Dredd if you read it sequentially. it is a like And it functions both ways. How many times did you read it before you realized what the what the deal was, Matt? I decided to just read it straight through from the start. Did you know what the gimmick was? No. That's madness! What?
00:05:11
Speaker
Well, I was like, yeah, okay, I know this is a Cheesier and Adventure story. I know it's probably gonna have different endings, but I'll just go through and see the different endings as they come. That is the Matt Wilson-est thing I have ever heard in my life.
00:05:26
Speaker
to To take the fun away from myself of a thing? Yeah, I know what a Cheesier and Adventure story is. I was gonna read it straight through. yeah I got work to do. That was pretty much exactly what I thought, yeah.
00:05:39
Speaker
Matt, that's wild. I hope you don't mind me saying so. That's wild, Matt. Oh, I can imagine like people being like, you made it not fun. Which look, it would not be the first time I've been accused of making something not fun.
00:05:58
Speaker
oh Were you then, were you surprised to like when you realized as you were going through it that you were ah getting like a a different narrative that was playing out? When the Choose Your Own Adventure stuff started coming up, I had a sense that there would probably be a twist. One, because it's a Judge Dredd story. Two, because it's an Al Ewing story. And I was like, this is probably going to all come together as one singular story somehow in the end. And then it did.
00:06:36
Speaker
I mean, i not that I wasn't like delighted by how it came together. like I love the idea of, like in the end, you find out that he works in a lab where the scientist in charge is studying parallel universes.
00:06:53
Speaker
And which you should never do in a judge drag comic by the way, like it is mentioned in here It's like yeah, we we found that one parallel dimension where all life was a crime. It's like yeah that that resulted in millions if not billions of deaths and but Then he gets shocked by a piece of machinery Where essentially all the various parallel Jacksons are existing in this reality and I really appreciated the cleverness of that. i well I didn't know what clever twist was coming, but I thought there would probably be one. Okay. I read it as a Choose Your Own Adventure, which, you know, like you would read a Choose Your Own Adventure comic if you were presented with one.
00:07:47
Speaker
And I made it through the the first death. And then I started, you know, I went back to the beginning to start over because I wanted to see what the rest of it was. And when I made the second branching choice, I think is
Avengers Vol. 3, No. 71 Analysis
00:08:01
Speaker
when I got that panel of Judge Dredd saying, you again, and that's when I kind of realized what was happening. And that's when I went back to the start and read it straight through.
00:08:13
Speaker
And it's like it's astounding how well it is structured. Yeah, it's really interesting how Judge Dredd maybe appears in a third of the panels of this story, maybe? Yeah, not a lot. And you get a complete Judge Dredd story, where everything that is happening in this, if you read it like I did, everything that is happening for Judge Dredd is happening chronologically.
00:08:42
Speaker
the Like, he is having this night where he keeps seeing this same guy, even though he's seen him die horribly earlier the in the evening. It's it's so clever. it's Again, it's it's so clever I can't stand it.
00:09:07
Speaker
ah One last comic here on Andrew's List. is Avengers, volume three, number 71. Oh, shit. World wins by Jeff Johns with art by Steve Sadowski. Andrew says, I know you've read this, guys. Don't run away from your job.
00:09:33
Speaker
all right What's the number on that one again? 71. But Chris, before you go look, OK? Oh, no. if You can't. It's not in there. What do you mean? what What's not in there? but they That doesn't exist anymore, Matt. That page doesn't exist. It's it's not on like the app anymore. It's not on Marvel Unlimited. I don't know if you're going to want to keep this in, but that's just like if someone talked about Chris Benoit on the w WWE Network. It has been cut. I think that's a good analogy that we should keep. um But here's my question to you, Chris.
00:10:07
Speaker
Aside from that single page, and if you don't know what we're talking about, listeners, first of all. Yeah, listeners, if you don't know what we're talking about. First of all, congratulations. It's your turn yeah it's to find out what we're talking about. ah that There is a scene in Avengers volume three, number 71, during Jeff Johnson's run on Avengers, ah where the issue begins with ah the Wasp, Janet Van Dyne, and Yellow Jacket at the time, Hank Pym,
00:10:35
Speaker
ah rekindling their romance. And in particular, we are treated to a scene where it's clear that Hank is performing a sex act on Janet. ah It would seem to be of the oral nature because- Well- Because he's under the covers, but then Swerve,
00:11:06
Speaker
Hank, we then learned that Hank has shrunk down because we see him climbing up between Janet's cleavage, he climbs up through, and- Which he's tiny, by the way. He's tiny, he's ant-sized, and then he, I think he goes to full size, or maybe he stays small, I don't remember, but- I think he pops back up to full size after he literally, like,
00:11:36
Speaker
like climbs her boobs. Yes, and then once he is full size, he sits there sweaty saying, your turn. Oh, you hope it's sweat, Matt. I don't think it is. I never thought about that. but Look. Yeah, no. um Look, you know yeah know what's weird about this comic? The implication. Uh-huh. The implication.
00:12:03
Speaker
is that he was he was cave diving he was full-body cave diving yeah which he he was first of all first of all why would you think to do that second how is that pleasurable for Janet I mean I guess they could figure out some ways. This is maybe the only thing that has happened both in Avengers, The Earth's Mightiest Heroes, from Marvel Comics, and Colin Cooper's Small Favors. Uh-huh. Like, it is it is it is a small favor. It is certainly is performed a small favor. um You know what's weird about this comic, Matt? What is weird? I heard that Chris Claremont read this and was like, wow, is that somebody's fetish?
00:13:04
Speaker
Here's my question for you, Chris, though, before you go look at anything. Aside from that single scene, because we talked about how much the Power Girl cleavage window thing defined that four issue series, right? Yeah. Could you tell me anything else that happens in that comic aside from that single page?
00:13:27
Speaker
It takes place in Las Vegas, which I know because the cover yeah is like a JG Jones cover of, uh, the wasp like, and, and I guess Hank's there too, but they're like flying on a poker table with like giant poker jokes. It's a craps table. Yeah, yeah, craps table. So I know that about it. I literally do not know anything else about this comic. So they're in Las Vegas. Uh, Hank proposes to Janet again.
00:13:56
Speaker
But Janet says no, because she's not ready for that level of commitment. And then they literally just fight a supervillain whirlwind in Las Vegas. I don't even know if any of the other Avengers are in the book.
00:14:15
Speaker
ah No, they are not. You know, what is in this book, though, is that ah Whirlwind knocks out Janet and then licks her face. Cool. And then and then Hank is ah like 50 feet tall and naked. Like that's so cool. and What a cool comic. Yeah. And like the um the like the Sphinx statue at the Luxor ah huh ah is is placed to cover his balls. Great. Like from from the back.
00:14:42
Speaker
Great. And then also Whirlwind, the Marvel comic supervillain Whirlwind is positioned to cover Hank's presumably man sized dick. Excellent. I'm so glad. But I'll tell you what, if you go look at this, if you go look at this bad boy on the ah on the Marvel limited app, it starts on page three. I guess I guess it's page two because it's double page spread. Was it a double page spread?
00:15:10
Speaker
No, no, no it's the the first page of this is a double page thread. So it it skips page one? Yeah. Yeah. Which, that was page one, by the way. I don't know if we covered that. That was page one. um Also, ah Whirlwind um pays a sex worker to dress up as the Wasp and then and then beats her up. So there's like, you also get a shot of what looks like the Wasp getting ah hit like when Hank Pym did that, when T was Yellowjacket all those years ago. Yeah. um This comic fucking sucks, dude. It's terrible.
00:15:51
Speaker
It's terrible. it And it's especially terrible in that it tries to build on a previous story that was character defining for Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne. And instead of like fixing it, it makes it worse somehow. Yeah, it's another one of those things where it's like, that That has, like, in a lot of ways... I mean, I would say, like, pre-MCU, right? Like, defined Hank Pym as a character. To the point where, like, it's Scott Lang in the movies. Like, Hank Pym doesn't get to be Hank Pym anymore. I mean, Hank is in the movies. And he's a very different Hank Pym. But he's an old, retired guy.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah. And that is like, that is like the way that they have chosen to present him. The way the movies chose to present him was, oh yeah, he was Ant-Man back in the sixties. And then he stopped. There were, there was no Ant-Man, uh, like in, like in the eighties. I don't recall any Ant-Man then. Yeah. He went and did all those movies. Yeah. He, but he, he started his own company, ran the company and he was, he was sad cause Janet disappeared, you know? In the microverse. In the microverse.
00:17:16
Speaker
That's the way the movies handled it Yeah, because like Hank Pym is a poison chalice. Yeah, because that's the one thing that anyone who knows Hank Pym knows that he did which Which is unfortunate for a lot of reasons first of all being that like I don't think that story is handled particularly well in those issues it's It's not the worst it could be, but we but anyway, to my point. ah But also because I feel like a lot of creators have put in a lot of work to kind of rehabilitate Hank Pym as a character and like do a lot of work with specifically the relationship between Hank Pym and Jenna Van Dyne in a way that like acknowledges that history
00:18:12
Speaker
but tries to move past it, it tries to like turn it into a redemption arc where it is never presented as a thing that is anything but awful. It's you know the thing that Hank Pym feels worst about, and he made Ultron, but then you have stories like this where it's like, hey, remember? Remember? It's it's fine, because he he climbs up in there.
00:18:39
Speaker
he he get he He uses her as a flesh snuggie. God. You can believe that and should believe that, Matt. No, we got the explicit tag. We can't. yeah Look, ah here's what I got to say. Marvel may want to erase this. Disney, the the Walt Disney Company,
00:19:04
Speaker
May want to erase this from history. But sorry, this comic came out in 2003 when the internet existed. Which means that this will never go away. Yep. You can take it out of every digital version of this comic that exists. It's still never going away. If you do a Google search for Hank Pym Janet Van Dyne,
00:19:28
Speaker
I'm not even, I'm not even searching for Avenger 71. I'm not searching for the word sex. I'm just searching Hank Pym, Janet Van Dyne. Chris, take a wild guess how many images there are before you see Hank Pym crawling through Janet's cleavage. Four. More than that, but not too many. It is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11. It's the 12th image.
00:19:59
Speaker
That's pretty high up there. it's It's dead center of the page that I'm looking at right now. Yeah. And it is like, as as I said, if if you know one thing about Hank Pym in the comics, it's that he hit Janet. If you know two things about Hank Pym, this is the second one.
00:20:18
Speaker
Pretty much. Pretty much. Because everybody saw it and were and we were all, the day it came out, we were like, what the fuck? Like, first of all, what is the act? Second of all, why is the act? Yep. Third of all, is that how any of this works? Yeah. Like, this came out in 2003, so I was, you know, 20 when this came out.
00:20:48
Speaker
And even at 20 years old, I i flipped out like thinking, what is ha what happened? What are they doing in this page? This was before Marvel Comics had like the ratings on the covers. This was immediately post ah the end of the Comics Code, though. Yeah. it was It was after Marvel ditched the Comics Code, because Marvel ditched the Comics Code for new X-Men.
00:21:17
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to see if if this one had a T for teen on the cover. I don't think it has any writing at all, yeah. Now Matt, I don't know what your life is like, but to me, like one of the weirdest things about this is that I have essentially seen this the same like sort of act occur in in like other art. Not that I look, I don't go looking.
00:21:44
Speaker
but sometimes I view a Google search. Oh, I see what you're saying. For like, like I want non-sexual shrinking and I forget that I need to type non-sexual. So you're saying Chris Claremont was right when he said, this is somebody's fetish. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Usually, usually it's more that the women are or giant than that the dudes are really small, but that's just, that's getting into the getting into weeds. That's semantics.
00:22:13
Speaker
What I'm saying is I've seen this same sort of imagery. I wouldn't say often, but I've seen it enough. And yet this is still shocking. I mean, it's shocking because it's in a comic book with Avengers on the cover. Yeah, because this is in the comic book where also Captain America is. Yeah, I mean, not in this issue. No, but certainly in the next station next issue. Yeah.
00:22:39
Speaker
Let's see, the next issue, because this was a one-shot story, the next issue literally has Captain America, Iron Man, and the Scarlet Witch on the cover. and the And it's the story arc where you find out that, oh, you know, when She-Hulk, when Jennifer Walters, when she turns into She-Hulk. That story sucks. I hate that story so much. like It's not because, Matt, it's not because she's mad. You thought it was because she was mad, but it's actually because she's afraid.
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah. This is 2003. They let this dude keep writing comic books. I got real problems with that She-Hulk story. It's awful. I think that She-Hulk story might be worse than this one, but boy is it a close race. This one is easy to laugh at and be like, be like oh man, that's wild but that there was a Marvel comic where someone
00:23:33
Speaker
I almost said something even worse than what I said last time, Matt. Well, I'm glad glad you stopped yourself. You want me to? I could. Save it for off the air. Okay. It's that same shit that happened in Power Girl. It's the same shit.
00:23:50
Speaker
it's It's, oh, you thought, like She-Hulk, you know She-Hulk, the fun character who like breaks the fourth wall and is a lawyer and does like superhero law. Actually, yeah, she's sad. Tragic, she's tragic. yeah And also she has no control over herself. Yeah, also boys are mad and and girls are scared. like Like She-Hulk, who was the Hulk who like was always in control,
00:24:18
Speaker
and had it together and like had a really like compelling, interesting personality when she was hulked out. Oh, actually, none of that. Actually, you know what? None of that. Fuck that story. We ran Chuck Austin out of town on a rail. and I'm not saying he didn't that that we shouldn't have.
00:24:44
Speaker
because it was not working out and he is doing much better now and making great art. Steven Universe and Shira are things he has worked on. I'm legitimately happy for Chuck.
Critique of Marvel Comics
00:24:58
Speaker
We let this dude keep going for the next 17 years. Yeah, not only keep going, put it put him basically in charge for a while. Yeah, the top guy. They were like, hey, we need someone to to to make
00:25:14
Speaker
so to create a Green Lantern movie. We need someone to reinvent the Green Lantern franchise, and that worked, so who knows? Why does Ryan Reynolds have hair like that in the Green Lantern movie? That's a question I have. I haven't seen it, so I don't know if it's explained. Is it because he's sad? it's probably its heat There's probably a big scene where he explains why his hair is like that, and it's because he said he's sad. When I was a kid, I used to watch Baby Billy, and I always thought I would do my hair like that someday.
00:25:45
Speaker
Ugh, baby Billy, if you've not watched The Righteous Jimstones, please do. Is this worse than... Hmm, I'm looking at some stuff at the bottom of the list. There's some bad, bad stuff down here. Oh, Matt, this one, get out your fucking bingo card for mid-2000s bad comics. Sure, but is this as bad as... Batman the Widening Jire or Trouble?
00:26:13
Speaker
Matt, I don't think you're gonna agree with me. I think it is almost exactly as bad as trouble. I think it might actually be worse than trouble. now Because nobody gets sexually assaulted in trouble. it's I don't think it's as bad as like, since past. Which is bad.
00:26:38
Speaker
But I, but I think it's exactly as bad as trouble. I mean, you make a compelling point there. This does have a lot of this. No, no, there I knew since pass was below trouble. Yeah, yeah it's way below there. You make a compelling point there because because this does a lot of the same terrible stuff as trouble, which is injecting for lack of a better way of putting it adult themes.
00:27:08
Speaker
into fun adventure stories ah involving characters that were originally for kids. Yeah, there's like six things in this one issue to be mad about. One of them happens on page one and had to be excised. Yeah, I can't- This shit was declared heretical. It was. I don't know if I can think of another Marvel comic where something got taken out.
00:27:37
Speaker
never to be seen again, hopefully with with hope that it was never seen again. The only other things that I can think of like this are like like when there was the weird misprint ah and Sabretooth was called a racial slur. Oh, well, but yeah yeah, that was a misprint. That was a mistake. yeah but it's Yeah, but it's like only stuff like that. I cannot think of anything else, and maybe we're forgetting, but I i have a hard time thinking of anything else that came out And it wasn't immediate either. like there I believe there's like ah ah the the Trade Paperback version of this story has that page in it. Probably, because the Trade Paperback would have come out you know what yeah like in 2003 or 2004. A couple years later, at most. It's in the digital era post
00:28:31
Speaker
Disney Marvel that this has been taken out because It's the closest. I think I could say pretty Beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's the closest that anything that's happened in the pages of a book called Avengers has come to pornography It's Very like yeah, it's I mean again This is the same act that happens in small favors small favors is better by the way. I Like if if that's not clear, the way this same act is depicted in small papers is better. ah Okay. um But yeah, I can't think of anything else that like, like we've like like stories have been retconned, but nothing has been like like literally cut out.
00:29:22
Speaker
in the way that this that i that I can think of right now. I could be wrong. If I am, please tell me. I'm sure you will. but i mean I mean, here's the
Newspaper Comics Review: Heathcliff
00:29:30
Speaker
question. Is Trouble available digitally at all? ah Well, let's load up Marvel Unlimited. I mean, even if it's not on Marvel Unlimited, can you buy it? Like on Comixology? I'm sure you can. Let me look on Comixology and see if the series Trouble is on there.
00:29:48
Speaker
Because, here's ah here's what, okay, I will bet this. ah The series Trouble is not on Comixology. Wait, yes it is. Holy shit, I can't believe it. You can buy like a trade paperback version of Trouble. I don't believe it. Okay, yeah now ah let me see if you can buy.
00:30:13
Speaker
Any digital version of rawhide kid that nope, it's available to I cannot believe that either That one surprises me more than trouble Trouble is not nope. Yep. There it is. There it is on its on unlimited on Marvel Unlimited All right. Well, here's what here's where I'm gonna come down We can say that this is worse than trouble. We cannot say this is worse than rawhide kid. I Ride Kid is a series that is a gay joke. Oh, no, wait, wait. Digital issue is not currently available. Of trouble? For trouble number five. Okay. ah You could buy it on Comixology, though. Put it put it ah below trouble above Ride Kid.
00:31:02
Speaker
On to a new list. This list comes from Robert Headley. who has a list of three newspaper comics for us. All right? Okay. The first is that Heathcliff comic where he's spray painting the wall to read poop and butt while children cheer and a man says he's popular with the youngsters.
00:31:30
Speaker
ah We're going to need a date on that, Matt. That's the only, like I know. i know I know exactly the one that you're talking about. Who was it that showed us this on the show recently?
00:31:47
Speaker
ah Somebody did. I don't know. It looks like this is from maybe 2014. It's from 2017. 2017? Yeah, pretty recent. This is from January 11th, 2017. All right.
00:32:03
Speaker
um
00:32:05
Speaker
It's pretty good. I mean, good for certain definitions of good, I suppose. Matt, woop matt what definition definition of good is this not? Well, ah let's see. the The two men commenting on what he's writing on the wall can't actually see what he's writing. But they can but they can see Heathcliff and they can see the kids cheering.
00:32:34
Speaker
That's true. Maybe, maybe that's the gag is they don't see what he's writing.
00:32:42
Speaker
But why is he writing poop butt? Cause that, cause Matt give, okay. Okay. You're, look, you're a, you're a pro writer and you're, you're a pro comedy guy. Well, pro comedy guys.
00:32:59
Speaker
yeah It's questionable, but you're I dabble. You're an accomplished committee guy. I dabble. Matt, give me two funnier words to spray paint on a wall that you can print in a newspaper to to make this gag work that are not poop and butt. And Matt,
00:33:22
Speaker
I'm going to blow your fucking mind. All right. what might mind do this No, blow my mind. I, I'm not gonna, I, I could list off words, but yeah I mean, what if he just was writing the word graffiti? Okay, that is pretty funny, but like the children wouldn't be cheering for that. Plus that's too, that's too abstract. I'll tell you why it's gotta be poop butt. Okay.
00:33:51
Speaker
It's got to be poop butt, Matt, because please do me a favor and look at Heathcliff for April 29th, 2014. Now is this the one, that's the one where he just does poop? Right, this is a direct s sequel. This is exactly the kind of comic we were talking about previously.
00:34:09
Speaker
Wow, what serendipity. Actually, the only comment on this Garfield, or Garfield, on this Heathcliff strip, I know, i how dare I. The only comment on this Heathcliff strip is from Cat's Rule Uber Alles, which, oof, from around the time it came out, which says, first it was poop, 429.14. Now the kitty has graduated it for the kitties to poop butt. It's all kid friendly. But what's next? I mean, fart, maybe? It's probably fart. Um, here's the thing though, Matt, if you look at if you look at this comic, he's only actually spray painting butt. So he's like adding butt to his previously spray painted poop. But however,
00:35:08
Speaker
that doesn't quite work but because the wall is oriented oriented differently. The poop he spray painted back in 2014 was a different color. I mean, they look, you can't you can't trust fucking syndicate colorists, Matt. I'm sorry. Apologies to whoever is coloring Heathcliff. You have to do that shit every day, and I know that it is difficult, but I feel like you're not getting a lot of instructions. Because if you were, you would not be coloring the word poop shit brown. The lettering is totally different.
00:35:42
Speaker
I'm just saying, like, there's no attention to continuity here. There's no attention to detail. It's fucking hyper time, Matt.
00:35:55
Speaker
ten There is a another part of this that I feel like we have woefully ignored um in talking about why this is so good. And that's this squadron of tiny children going apeshit.
00:36:11
Speaker
The squadron of tiny children in, like, clothes that children would have worn in the 20s. Yes, yes, yes. They're all wearing, like, boots. People still wear boots, man. I mean, do children wear boots that often? I mean, I guess it's cold out. I suppose i think is this is a weird nitpick. The children are wearing boots.
00:36:38
Speaker
I just think that they look old-fashioned, if that's all. On some wild Mr. Potter shit right now. The kids in the original look a lot more like modern children than in the the newer one where they I think they look very old-fashioned. But whatever the case. Do you think, Chris, this is one of those, like, word puzzles?
00:37:09
Speaker
I don't think it's a rebus puzzle, per se. Like, it do I think this is like poop over butt? Yeah. That would be the answer. Butt under poop. Butt below poop. Whatever it might be. Wow, I didn't think the words poop and butt could make me uncomfortable. But when you were just saying them...
00:37:32
Speaker
in that weirdly like academic manner just now. um strike ran down my spine I'm trying to find meaning. I mean, is that is that the point of this comic strip that life has no meaning? I mean, Matt, Heathcliff is a surrealist. This is an absurdist, almost nihilistic tale about a cat who doesn't care about anything. So he's just holding two spray cans, spray painting poop butt to get some joy out of someone, these children. Matt, ah do you think, do you think Heathcliff is Banksy? I mean, based on this evidence, yes.
00:38:33
Speaker
I think in the world of Heathcliff, maybe Heathcliff is Banksy, except for this is like way better than Banksy could ever do. I mean, that's true.
Debating Heathcliff's Humor
00:38:44
Speaker
Honestly, the only like really good Banksy thing, like, oh, look, it's Disneyland, but corporations are bad. But the only good thing you did was have that painting that self-destructed at the auction. That shit was amazing.
00:39:00
Speaker
I mean, this is definitely Banksy-like in its audacity. Banksy-in. It's very Banksy-in, yes. um I think this... yeah Also, single panel... Single panels are hard to judge. Because it's like... I don't think so. I feel i feel like single panels are are tough. Because there's no...
00:39:28
Speaker
There's not necessarily a sequential narrative to them, it's just an instant. Like, I don't know how we would rank any given family circus other than they're bad. Sure, but those are bad comics. the But the far side does a superb job of giving you essentially a complete story in a single panel.
00:39:53
Speaker
Yeah, I guess there's a lot of implied narrative in The Far Side. That is what makes it work. Your brain adds what came before and what comes after. like The Far Side was perhaps the only good single panel comic. I'm sorry, are you looking at this Heathcliff right now? Matt, I am legitimately shocked that you don't think this is fucking hilarious, because I i am over here legitimately.
00:40:23
Speaker
thinking this is great. i You can't, though. You can't, like... What part of it's not great? It's only good in its badness. the Like, the fact that he's spray painting poop and butt on the wall, that's just laziness. That is absolute creative laziness. That's... hard disagree. Hard disagree. Again,
00:40:51
Speaker
What are you going to print in the newspaper that is going to be that funny? Also, consider that Peter Gallagher had been drawing Heathcliff for 16 years at this point. Yeah, okay, that's fair. And yes, I do understand that the whole idea is that like these are these are the words that children think are funny.
00:41:15
Speaker
chi Children and me. Children and you. children These are the words that children think are funny. So like by spray painting them on the wall, Heathcliff is getting like a big, a big response from the kids. It's just like, okay, I'll say what this is better than. Okay. It is better than any given lock horns. The, ah God, I haven't, first of all, I haven't thought about the lock horns in a minute. Second of all, that comic's depressing.
00:41:45
Speaker
That comic, the punchline of every strip and and like the Sunday Lockhorns is like three one panel strips. And the punchline of every single one is they hate each other. Yeah.
00:42:00
Speaker
Yeah, I hate my fucking wife. That is the punchline of the Lockhorns. I hate my wife. I hate my husband. They hate each other. And as someone who, like like, I felt weird say like saying in quotes, I hate my wife just now, because I love my wife. I'm very happy. Marriage is great. I love it. So, like, the Lockhorns is...
00:42:24
Speaker
uniquely distressing to me. Yeah. i This is better than the Lockhorns. I do not think this is a good comic. I think it is a notable comic. I do not think it's good. this is This is shocking to me. We almost never disagree. But I legitimately, how can you look at this and not laugh? How can you look at These kids like, Matt, consider there is a cat and he is, first of all, he's spray painting human language on a wall. The human language that he is spray painting on the wall is poop butt. The kid, there are children surrounding him who were like, yeah, poop butt. That's the funniest shirt.
00:43:20
Speaker
It does not strike me, okay, here's the thing. And maybe this is not a good reason to say this is bad. Any humor that comes out of this is 1000% unintentional. What? That is, that's such a weird judgment to make.
00:43:44
Speaker
what is your What is your evidence for that? What is your evidence that Peter Gallagher doesn't know what he's doing? Every other fucking Heathcliff strip. Heathcliff is frequently bizarre in a way that is highly readable. Alright, I want you to go to the next strip from January 12th, 2017. Alright, let's see this this bad boy.
00:44:08
Speaker
ah All right. um Describe but this strip. Okay. First of all, excellent coloring work on this. Apologies to the Syndicate Colorists, because this one is actually beautiful. um There's two women who are like exactly the two men from the previous strip. Yep. ah And they are regarding, as Heathcliff,
00:44:37
Speaker
is sitting in a gigantic armchair in front of a fire, wearing us he's wearing a smoking jacket and drinking from a goblet, like a snifter. I guess it's probably a snifter, right? um it's ah It's a wine glass. There are two unlit candelabrum on the ah the mental, and there is the 50s clock.
00:45:03
Speaker
Also hanging there. Yeah. And the caption is, he likes to sit before a roaring fire, which the caption is unnecessary, I think, because the image is actually, Matt, the image is very funny. Is that, okay. I think the joke of both of these strips is meant to be this cat is doing human things.
00:45:33
Speaker
Right? I mean, I feel like that's, I feel like that's the joke of this one. Because he is a cat drinking brandy and like, like regarding. Oh, also it's like a three quarters profile, like three quarters profile from the back so we cannot see Heathcliff's expression, which is inscrutable. He's also wearing a smoking jacket. Yeah, that's just funny. beautiful I think Heathcliff does human things is the joke of the other one. I think the joke is,
00:46:03
Speaker
kids love poop butt here's what i think i think is it is his name peter gallagher peter gallagher is the the artist he is uh george gatley's nephew okay i think peter gallagher saw the those most interesting man in the world ads and decided he was gonna make his cat comic strip character, Heathcliff, do some of that stuff. Can I tell you something? If you go to January 13th, this strip is absolutely, talk about inscrutable. I have no idea what's happening in this one.
00:46:55
Speaker
And I kind of like it more than the other ones. Yeah, I mean, that this one is, I think, on par with spray painting graffiti that just says graffiti. Yeah, so I think this might just be us revealing the differences in our sense of humor. Because this, I kind of prefer this. Because it's so weird. Because a bird is saying, like, cartoon cursing. So presumably not poop butt.
00:47:24
Speaker
in a word balloon. Yeah, this is much worse than poop butt. Then the other bird I believe is talking and is saying, I like the cut of your jib as Heathcliff walks underneath them and only has two feet. Yeah, um I will say that Heathcliff is poorly poorly drawn in this one. um Sorry, Peter, but like the body and the head are good.
00:47:55
Speaker
The feet are wild. He has two feet. He has two feet, but they're also like perpendicular to his body. And are both off the ground at the same time. And are both off the ground. That's not how anything walks. Okay. Please, please go to the Heathcliff from today. Okay. The day we are recording this.
00:48:17
Speaker
i We're going to reveal when we're recording this. Matt, this one's great. This is. Okay, I'm just going to reveal the day we're recording this. It's February 18th, 2020. The Heathcliff strip is Heathcliff sitting at a table outside of a store that just says meat.
00:48:42
Speaker
Uh-huh. Twice. It says meat twice. It says what's on a sign above the awning, and then this isn't also on the window. Yes. Twice it says meat. There are two guys. The formula for Heathcliff. for Heathcliff is two creatures. Observe Heathcliff. Observe Heathcliff, yes. Matt. Matt. Matt. Okay. Matt. Matt. I'm the one on the left. You're the one on the right. Heathcliff was Harrison.
00:49:16
Speaker
Heathcliff is sitting at a table But it has like a I guess it's got like a tablecloth draped over it uh-huh and On the tablecloth is the Facebook thumbs up with the word like underneath it and Heathcliff is also giving a thumbs up sitting at the table and The one butcher is saying to the other butcher. He's been here all morning and
00:49:46
Speaker
Matt, it's good. It's good. Heathcliff is good, actually. I will say it's that was kind of like, enjoyably bizarre, at least.
00:49:58
Speaker
Yeah, yes, it is. I swear to God, Chris, I am going through every Heathcliff strip. And they are all two people observing Heath or two creatures observing Heathcliff. I wish.
00:50:14
Speaker
I finally got to one where one character is characters actually talking to Heathcliff. I wish this trip was called regard colon Heathcliff.
00:50:25
Speaker
Do you think that Steve Ditko is ah secretly making these comics? No, because they they actually make a little more sense than, I think, Big Steve. Alright, we have talked about this Heathcliff. We've talked about Heathcliff for a good chunk of time. Yeah, because I needed your evidence that this was not on purpose, which you have not provided.
00:50:52
Speaker
This there is such a consistent Bizarreness to it that it doesn't happen by accident like this is not If if like ah at at worse this is like Fletcher Hanks where we cannot comprehend what is going on in in Peter Gallagher's head But I think like there is definitely Because it's a pattern But outside of the framework nothing makes sense And I kinda love it. This one actually makes, the the poop butt makes the most sense of any of these we've read. I can follow exactly what is happening. I i am i am just paging through Heathcliff strips right now, and they are utter madness. All right, what I wanna do, could could you like put some like, so'm like um
00:51:46
Speaker
maybe like some Jeopardy-ish music, or like a little bit of vamping? and here because I think yeah look at the list and you pick a spot and I will pick a spot all right I'll put in a little music here and we can name our perspective spots where we think this goes
00:52:47
Speaker
I have mine.
00:52:51
Speaker
I almost had it and I don't have it anymore. I'm sorry. I have it. I have it. Okay. All right. Do you want me to go first? What is your number? Yeah, what is your number? My number is 899. My number is 475.
00:53:16
Speaker
I wanna put this between Cartilagehead and Felipe in the case of the mystery story. No fucking way. No fucking way can this to go above Felipe in the mystery story. Okay, then let's put it below Felipe in the mystery story and above Season of Miss.
00:53:35
Speaker
that's ah That's mean. We can't do that. I'm dead serious. that is what That is where I think it should go. Okay, what was your number? My number was 899. Okay, first of all, that's below John drinking dog semen in Garfield. Yeah. You would put this, you would put this below the Donald Duck strip with the offensive stereotypes. No, I would put it right above it. Okay. Okay. So below Poptopia, you would put this below Chuck Austin. and Anyway, Poptopia is Joe Casey. Nevermind. Yeah. I would put it, it's, it's not offensive.
00:54:15
Speaker
But like, it just, like, I don't, okay, we gotta to find a middle spot. Okay, so the middle spot would be somewhere in the 600s, right? Yeah. Somewhere in the 600s or 700s. I mean, I can't imagine putting this above, like, like Pride of Baghdad, but okay. Matt, right now,
00:54:42
Speaker
Number 700 on this list is Defenders Volume 3. That's the Giffen and Dematius and Kevin McGuire Defenders. There is no way this Heathcliff strip is not better than that. I'm sorry. it's There's no way it is it is better than The Invisibles. You know which one I'm going to be thinking about more often. the Okay, I will give you this. They're similarly inscrutable. but if i Hey, if I can get the disinformation guide to this one Heathcliff strip.
00:55:12
Speaker
I would pay $14.99 for that. my My ceiling absolutely completely is the invisible. Like, honestly, Chris, i I'm not shitting you. I do not know if you're doing a bit right now. Matt, I'm not doing a bit. I don't... The fact that you asked me that confirms that you're not doing a bit.
00:55:36
Speaker
but like, I am absolutely not doing a bit. I think this strip is good. Okay, if you want to put it above Sandman, there are two Sandman stories at 696, 697. You do something like you're about to cry. I just had a little like, flimmy throat. it I'm not that emotional about this. 698 is Justice League Antarctica, which is a comedy, right?
00:56:04
Speaker
Yes, it is not as funny as this Heathcliff strip Okay, okay, I I cannot abide putting it above the invisibles, but if you want to put it in visible Okay, I will put it. I will put it below Titan scissors paper stone above the element girl issue of salmon which I do not care for that's fine That is fine Entering the list at the new number 696 is Hecliff from January 11th, 2017.
00:56:46
Speaker
And I'll put in parentheses poop butt. I can't believe how much time we spent on that that. That's outrageous. I can't believe that of all the comics that we have just been fully in agreement on, this is the one that is, like, destroying us.
Captain America #350 Praise
00:57:06
Speaker
Next on Lu's list is Captain America number 350, Seeing Red, in which it's Captain America versus Captain America versus Red Skull in Captain America's body.
00:57:17
Speaker
So this is when Captain America is the captain. And there's the other Captain America running around. And also, there's a red skull who's in a Captain America body that they're also fighting. Yeah. And the second Captain America is John Walker. He's John Walker, yes.
00:57:36
Speaker
my um I was cleaning up my office the other day, you know, trying to get things, you know, not necessarily spring cleaning because we're into summer now, but you know, trying to get things a little organized in here. Um, I found a machine. Oh yeah. And I didn't, I didn't even remember I have one of these things. I guess I bought it like online and and forgot about it. I love machines. It's got like a little, like a little, like I can, I can type in it and, and like enter things. So I'm just gonna, yeah, like I'm gonna enter in,
00:58:07
Speaker
ah Captain America... I guess this this is what, Captain America Volume 2, I guess? Well, Captain America Comics was the original book. I'll just put in Captain America, parentheses 1968. Alright, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, number 350.
00:58:27
Speaker
And then, enter... Oh, it says rules. Oh, cool. Matt, it says this issue rules. That's a lot like the machine I have. Yeah, I don't, like, did did you, like, give me one? I mean, I guess those machines are just around. Yeah, those, like, I mean, it's like, you know, we all have iPhones, we all have machines that tell you of comics rule, we all have TVs and DVRs. You'd think there'd be an app by now, but instead you just have to get these, like, weird teletype machines. Matt, what if we use this data that we've been collecting for the past six years, and we created an app that told you
00:59:04
Speaker
Which comics rule? ah that I don't think many people would download it, but it would be cool. We just call it The Machine. The Machine. The Machine app. Yeah. ah Anyway, The Machine says this one rules and The Machine is correct. oh This is the one that opens with Red Skull, like, in a Captain America body. And he's got, like, a bunch of dudes dressed up as Captain America. He's got, like, five captains America.
00:59:34
Speaker
and like, he fucking murders them. Like, again, people think Mark Grunewald is like, old-fashioned. Ritzkull fucking murders these dudes on panel. He like, snaps the dudes back over his knee. Matt. It's pretty brutal. It's brutal. Cause he's got, he looks like Captain America. He looks like Steve Rogers. Yeah. we' seen't it he's He's making a clone body for himself.
01:00:03
Speaker
Yeah, and he's testing it out and then by killing five Captain America's. And then he's making his face red again with the dust of death. You know about the dust of death. I do know about the dust of death. It's some ism death dust that makes your face red. This this what this is what Steve Rogers says. Okay, whoever you are, the bottom line, you know who I am. You went through some trouble to fool me into thinking you're the red skull. You expected me to come after you. What is it you want? I want you to die, of course.
01:00:33
Speaker
dope pretty pretty rough pretty rough yeah this this comic is this is one of those where it's like if you see this bad boy in a dollar box you buy that shit i don't i don't know if it's quite on the level of if you don't like this you don't like marvel comics that like uh the x-men issue is but i think if you like marvel comics at all you will think this comic rules and chris i guess We should just ah dive into this thing. Matt, I'm excited because i I literally, one minute before I hit record, remembered what we were doing this week. Yeah. FYI, full disclosure, we're actually recording this the day before it must go up.
01:01:23
Speaker
It is currently May 30th. This must go up on May 31st. So there will probably be no edits to this episode, or very minimal edits at most. um Ajax 500 ended up taking a lot of our time. So whatever we say in regards to Doomsday Clock, which is the book we're ranking here at the top, is what we're gonna say. and None of this has been edited or changed, I assure you.
01:01:52
Speaker
And yes, last episode we left off on a list from John Wickham. We ranked two of the stories on his list. Just imagine Stan Lee with Joe Cooper creating Batman and Man of Steel. And now we must rank Doomsday Clock by Jeff Johns, Gary Frank, and Brad Anderson, which I believe began publishing in 2017.
01:02:21
Speaker
and ah finished in late 2019. It's 12-issue run.
01:02:29
Speaker
Where do we begin? i would like to I would like to start with first principles, if we can. All right. ah It fucking sucks. Yeah, it's bad. I mean, it's a bad story. We've been having internal
01:02:46
Speaker
We've been having internally a debate for months now, but basically since we read issue 12 as to whether or not this would be the bottom of the list. I want to front load this conversation with that. You have maintained that it may be. I have said that it is probably not.
01:03:10
Speaker
i We will work that out here in this in this discussion. I am with you though, it is extremely bad comics. Yeah, I feel like it is so much easier for me to explain my line of thinking. I'm ki like, I don't want to put you in the position of defending it. But like, I um look, I'll tell you right now, I think it goes at the bottom of the list. I think finally, 1000 comics in identity crisis may lay down its burden.
01:03:45
Speaker
I think the only thing that I think Identity Crisis has over it is that I will die mad about Identity Crisis. like by like There is a good chance that my final words will be, fuck that book. I am not as mad at Doomsday Clock. I'm mad at it, and it's bad.
01:04:14
Speaker
but like it is it is so mind bending that it happened that I like I know how identity crisis happened and I can understand it doomsday clock I can't understand anything about it like how did this happen well let me make one thing very clear I do not think that any
01:04:47
Speaker
Argument I'm going to make about this book is going to be what I would call a defense It is not that I don't think that this story is pretty abysmally terrible. I do I absolutely believe that The issue is I think both doomsday clock I'm sorry, I think both identity crisis and Probably holy terror are worse
01:05:19
Speaker
because I think Identity Crisis and Holy Terror both make really, really unsettling, bad, damaging real world points. And not to say that Doomsday Clock doesn't. But Doomsday Clock is a very insular DC Comics, comics kind of book.
01:05:46
Speaker
Like even to the point where the Vladimir Putin putin of Doomsday Clock is a DC Comics character. He's not, he doesn't resemble Vladimir Putin of the real world in any discernible way. To put it very simply, Doomsday Clock is a book that is completely up its own ass.
01:06:13
Speaker
I mean, that is true. that That is absolutely true, Matt. um Here's the thing, what are the qualities that make Identity Crisis in particular? We can we can talk about Marville, we can talk about Holy Terror, but like I feel like the competition, such it is as it is, is between these two books, Doomsday Clock and Identity Crisis. I mean, I think Holy Terror i think holy terror is worse than Doomsday Clock also.
01:06:43
Speaker
Because Holy Terror is far more real world damaging. Yes, yes, but I do have a counter argument for that. Okay, but I mean, if we're if we're if we're going up against, or if we're petting Identity Crisis and Doomsday Clock against each other, I mean, I guess one thing we could do is just kind of list their crimes. Yeah, I think in the broad strokes, both Holy Terror and Identity Crisis are morally offensive.
01:07:14
Speaker
In different ways. In in in their content, they present they present morally offensive content to us, the reader. I think it's a particularly weird time, or a particularly apropos time, possibly, to be talking about Doomsday Clock, a book that... when did When did the last issue of Doomsday Clock actually come out? Oh, geez, Matt. um Fall of 2019.
01:07:40
Speaker
fall of 2019 yeah uh no december of 2019 okay so december of 2019 which i guess still is technically fall unless it came out late in the month in those few short months since the release of doomsday clock it has aged really badly oh it like it has it is Yes, it has aged as poorly as a comic could age. Because when I think of Doomsday Clock, what I think of is protesting in the street a certain racial element, particularly involving us discovering that the version of Rorschach in this
01:08:40
Speaker
He's the the son of the therapist from the original Watchmen. So he's black, which I think is meant to be like this kind of like big statement about race or something, even though I don't quite know what it's trying to say. And I also think about a a lot of like,
01:09:10
Speaker
conflict ah with authoritarians because there's the whole firestorm thing firestorm superman thing the issue is i don't know what any of that stuff is trying to say yeah it's it's it's okay again to list its crimes it's a bad story it's a poorly crafted story It is a story that reaches back to the past and attempts to ruin something. It also does, Matt, it makes an attempt at ruining things in the future. I don't think it's gonna do it because I don't think, I think everyone knows this was bad. I cannot imagine anyone being like, oh yeah, doomsday clock, a triumph, especially since it came out
01:10:07
Speaker
The last two issues came out concurrently with the very, very good Watchmen TV show. false so watch tv show actually The TV show actually compared in its entirety, I think, between issues 10 and 12 of this this series. It may have actually been between 11 and 12, because these these issues came out real slow.
01:10:36
Speaker
It is a bad story. It is a poorly crafted story. It is a poorly presented story. It is worse than the thing that it is referencing. It's morally reprehensible. And it has a second level of being charitably morally dubious.
01:10:58
Speaker
in the, like, look, I don't know if, ah I don't know what Gardner Fox and Mike Sikowski thought of, of Identity Crisis, but I do know what half of the creative team of Watchmen thinks about Doomsday Clock and its existence. Yeah. Which again, that's a complicated subject that I think goes beyond the scope of discussing this as a story,
01:11:27
Speaker
But I do think it is a factor. We have talked about it before. I think it's weird that everybody always talks about how Alan Moore doesn't want this stuff. And nobody talks about Dave Gibbons, who is, it you know, I would say 80% responsible for Watchmen. oh Nobody ever talks about what his thoughts were on it.
01:11:53
Speaker
I would venture to say, Matt, that that if if pound for pound, bad content for bad content, Doomsday Clock number 12, which may be the worst comic I've ever read in my life, and I've read at least a thousand of them, I think it by itself is as bad as Identity Crisis 1 through 7 on every level.
01:12:23
Speaker
We can get into, I disagree, but i we can get into, one thing I've talked about on here, but one thing, because people absolutely, and with with good purpose in a lot of cases, believe we should have ranked holy terror below identity crisis because of its real world implications. And we've talked about this notion of we're not gonna
01:12:54
Speaker
adjudicate or weigh one crime against another. But I think that might actually be a worthwhile exercise in terms of Doomsday Clock versus both Holy Terror and ah Identity Crisis. But I want to step back for a second because I want to talk about the cross purposes that Doomsday Clock is operating on. Okay, because this book started in 2017.
01:13:25
Speaker
The clear intent of Doomsday Clock was meant to be that this book would be the follow-up to Rebirth, which Jeff Johns also wrote. DC Rebirth. A pretty well-received soft reboot of the DC Universe. Yes? We can agree on that. On on the whole, yes.
01:13:52
Speaker
Super dumb ideas in the rebirth number one special like three jokers But a mostly well-received Soft reboot of the DC Universe doomsday clock and rebirth ends with Batman finding the comedians, but It is Essentially a prequel to doomsday clock. Yes It sets it up, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Because Doomsday Clock is the the series that marries the Watchmen universe to the DC universe. And there are very comic bookie goals clearly in mind for Doomsday Clock. So what Doomsday Clock is trying to do is two things. One, present some genuine, quote unquote, real,
01:14:49
Speaker
superheroes in the real world storytelling like watchmen and Also do a bunch of insular comic book continuity fixing stuff That's why issue 12 it's it's very tonally dissonant because you've got stuff like a Child being taken away from a non-white family, bingo, a Latino family, and given to a white family to be the new Superman. and if A family, a family specifically of like blonde, like blonde white people. And again, we have talked about this on the show.
01:15:36
Speaker
Dan Drieberg might be Jewish. Their hair is dyed blonde, but yeah, yes ah But yes, dr. Manhattan takes a Latino baby away from his parents and gives him to a family that he approves of ah And changes his name In order to make a new Superman and Matt that is presented as unambiguously positive uh-huh and and Years ago, Matt, 2010, I wrote a piece about how the people at DC Comics were not considering the racial implications of their stories. And I got a lot of, I got a lot of response from creators about that who were very angry. ah And my entire point was, you're not thinking it through. You didn't say this out loud to another person.
01:16:35
Speaker
And again, it is the the the bare bones plot of the story is that a good guy, more or less, takes a baby away from two bad people and gives him to a good family in order to so that he can grow up Well, like that is the intent. So that he can be Superman, the new Superman. Yeah, so that he can grow up like Superman with a with a good family and use his power responsibly to help save the world. um thee The other stuff, the the the details of it are exactly what we just said. Also, that is part of a montage at the end where ah Jeff Johns and Gary Frank introduce the next generation of Watchmen characters that we all love.
01:17:25
Speaker
Like we get a, we get a brand new, we get a brand new Ozymandias in this. We get a new Rorschach, a new Ozymandias and a new Dr. Manhattan so that we can get doomsday clock too. So here's my point. That issue, that part of this story is, it's basically an epilogue, right? It's not to say that it's not thought through, but it's clearly just pushing forward to get to a moment. You know? In the same issue, the Justice Society comes back. Yeah, because of the turn of Johnny Thunder, everyone's favorite fucking character that we all care about.
01:18:13
Speaker
Johnny Thunder, who is spotlighted earlier in the series, very closely. I feel like there used to be... like matt I could be wrong on this. I feel like there used to be like a young, cool, black Johnny Thunder created by Grant Morrison. ah But yeah i never really liked I never really liked reading about him. I want to read about this old white dude.
01:18:38
Speaker
from all of my favorite comics from fucking 1941. That's what I give half a shit about. Yeah, that's essentially what it is. Jeff Johns clearly likes a certain era of DC Comics. And he wants to go back to that era of DC Comics. So the cross purposes of Doomsday Clock are reverting back to that era of DC Comics by bringing back the Justice Society or focusing focusing so much on Johnny Thunder or, you know, but doing all this stuff that this book does to kind of turn the clock back. And in some ways, yes, and some ways undo Watchmen.
01:19:31
Speaker
It feels like a big part of this book is to bring in the Watchmen characters so you can undo Watchmen so that superhero comics can go back to being a certain way. But it also is like, well, we're also going to advance and progress things so that there are these new characters so that we can you know do Doomsday Clock 2 so that we can, you know, by the end of this,
01:20:02
Speaker
Rorschach reasserts the version of Rorschach in this book reasserts that he is Rorschach, so we can have more Rorschach stories, right? Yeah, because he's going to be a different kind of Rorschach. Yeah, because that's what Batman told him to do. Go be a different kind of Rorschach, a new Rorschach. Because this is in service to the Watchmen brand.
01:20:27
Speaker
Yes, even though it irreparably changes the Watchmen brand. Watchmen isn't really Watchmen anymore by the end of this. It's a brand. Yes. And so this was clearly an attempt to do the new, quote unquote, new DC universe. Like we heard about how nobody was allowed to do anything with the three jokers until Doomsday Clock ended.
01:20:56
Speaker
That's why we heard about it in rebirth and then never heard it about it again. I think there's finally going to be a three jokers thing now that doomsday clock has ended, but it was like, no, that's Jeff's thing. We have to hold off on doing any thing with that for awhile because it seems to me that at one time the plan was for doomsday clock to be the whole launching pad of the DC universe, what the DC universe is going to be.
01:21:25
Speaker
But then it took two and a half years to finish.
01:21:31
Speaker
and And... DC changes drastically. The internal politics of DC Comics change drastically. Not long after it's over, Danda Dio is out the door. The Watchmen brand changed drastically, which... Which, buddy... If, like... I have...
01:21:52
Speaker
On a creative level, like obviously he is a fellow human being, but on a creative level, I have very little sympathy for Jeff Johns in terms of how his comics are received because I think they are bad, generally speaking. um But i there is a, there is a twinge of sympathy for me for a dude who did like this book did take two years to come out. And then between number 11 and number 12, another Watchmen project came along and ate this dude's lunch.
01:22:23
Speaker
True. And had more to say. And had more to say. and took her And took a fucking side. Well, consider the again, very interesting to be talking about this right now at this particular moment in history. Look at the racial message, for lack of a better way of putting it, of the Watchmen TV show. You know, the Watchmen TV show completely recontextualizes Watchmen and the concept of superheroes in the world of Watchmen to be based on hooded justice who is essentially a black civil rights activist, right? Yeah, it makes the it it makes the original hero of the Watchmen universe a bisexual black man fighting against racists. Who has to make himself appear white to be palatable
01:23:20
Speaker
to the world at large like he has to paint the area around his eyes what you can see under the mask white so that people will accept him as a hero that's what the watchman tv show is about it's it's i don't fully 100 love the watchman tv show but the racial message the racial
01:23:47
Speaker
implications of the TV show, I think you're very well crafted and well very well thought out. And that's what I think pushes Doomsday Clock number 12 over the edge because that is a comic that says, hey, you know, both sides are bad.
01:24:03
Speaker
Yes. That is the part that made me the most viscerally angry in that 12th issue, no doubt. but undirectly all It is like middle of the road, both sides are bad, South Park bullshit. Fully.
01:24:31
Speaker
yeah
01:24:34
Speaker
ah Yeah, I mean the taking the kid away to make the new Superman is also bad, but I can excuse it as There's just ignorance at the heart of that And it's the idea is we're taking a kid away from bad guys to give them to good guys That stuff though That stuff about how both sides are wrong actually the extremes extremism is bad no matter what god buddy buddy you're you're doing a comic with superman in it pick a fucking side yeah man jeezy crazy like when one side is racism and one side is social justice and you're doing a comic with superman in it come the fuck on yeah
01:25:33
Speaker
Oh, these outdated identity politics and self-righteousness. You got to come up with a fucking Batman in it? You're talking about self-righteousness? And that one's bad. I don't know where the... That comes out of fucking nowhere. like Nothing thematically leading up to that points to that conclusion. You know?
01:25:59
Speaker
It's just like trying to staple a political message onto, you know what it reads as? And this is why ultimately I don't think it's the worst thing on our list. It reads as someone who doesn't think much or care much about politics, feeling like I got to add a political message to this because it's a Watchmen book. And coming off ultimately as ignorance because Chris, I want to have a discussion shortly about the concepts of ignorance and malice, ah which is a big part of my argument of why this isn't the bottom of the list. Okay, to be entirely fair, because I know people are gonna correct us on this if we don't talk about it, the part about both sides being bad is
01:26:51
Speaker
Rorschach II, Tushach, that is Tushach's dialogue before Batman convinces him that he should go out and beat the new Rorschach anyway.
01:27:04
Speaker
um So it is, it like the defeatism of that is presented as being bad. But I don't, like, ah we don't ever really get Anything in the book to support that the sentiment is bad like the idea as well Superman's good. It's a heel promo And what makes a good heel promo? They're a little bit, right? Right. I don't think the thought is that he's wrong. I Think the thought is that he's hopeless Because
01:27:43
Speaker
he He, you know, he talks about outdated identity politics. The next quote is, hands clutching their weaponized phones, finding no olive branch to save them, because neither side knows what that means anymore. Why not let this ugly world destroy itself before we're dragged down into the darkness with it? What a specific day to be talking about this, Matt. I know.
01:28:12
Speaker
I know, man. i like I feel like it may affect our ranking, ultimately. but it's like and And, specifically, having a black character say that stuff. hu And Batman doesn't, notably, batman doesn't tell him his wrong he's wrong about any of that. He just tells him, make people see something else when you wear the mask.
01:28:39
Speaker
make you see a monster when you when you see the mask because he's the guy that that uh That ruined your family, but you can make people see something else like it. It's such a weirdly specific At the very least Jeff Johns does seem to understand that Rorschach is not the hero of Watchmen Yeah, okay's so there's that you can give him that much
01:29:08
Speaker
and I mean, specifically because this character, his father was killed in in in all this stuff around ah Rorschach. I mean, I think he's mad at Ozymandias more because Ozymandias killed his dad. But, you know, he's he's a conflicted character. It's easy to get that much. But I don't, again, I don't think that the stuff about both sides falling into an abyss. I think that's just supposed to read as hopelessness. I don't think that's supposed to read as him being wrong.
01:29:52
Speaker
I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that. yeah Maybe it's a ah more nuanced reading of it, but. Which also, between, i ah i maybe not, because it might have been longer ago than I thought, but I also feel like either concurrent with or contemporary or or ah like immediately before Doomsday Clock, we also got Metal, which is also a story about ah thinking things are hopeless and instead choosing to um choosing to believe in something, which is the kind of recurring theme through all of of Scott Snyder's work ah at DC Comics.
01:30:33
Speaker
Which is pretty like, bit those books make a statement where this book doesn't. the the The statement this book makes is, now we can tell hopeful stories in the Watchmen universe with the with the new Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan too. Dr. Manhattan slash Superman. Dr. Superman. Yeah. dr super actually Super Manhattan.
01:31:01
Speaker
Oh, there you go, Matt. You got it there. You got it. Um, so all that's just number 12. The issues before that are not good. I do want to say, they're not good. However, I would say with the exception of one, one key issue, and that being the one with firestorm.
01:31:24
Speaker
bob Dr. Manhattan causing firestorm to make a bunch of people into glass. And then the glass being shattered by the Russian military because Superman can't stop it. Yeah, Superman can't stop what?
01:31:39
Speaker
and so People being shattered to death because they turned into glass. Speeding bullets. Speeding bullets, man. Notably, Superman, if do you know three things about Superman, one of them is that he cannot stop a speeding bullet. Yeah. He's slower than a train, slower than a locomotive. Buildings, too high. Too high.
01:32:00
Speaker
And you know, kind of like, like, like both, both, both small buildings and large buildings are kind of wrong when you think about it. But I think aside from those two issues, which are extremely bad, because that one also has DC Comics, Vladimir Putin in it, which is the most disorienting thing in the world.
01:32:25
Speaker
I'd say the rest of it is just like, mediocre banal comics madness. Because I know the other example you're going to bring up is Mary Marvel seeing Dr. Manhattan's dick. That is my bulletproof argument, Matt. That is the one that I feel like they're like. Because it happens, and there's no ambiguity about it. And that is like everything wrong with this comic, with DC Comics, with the same attitude that gave us Identity Crisis.
01:32:55
Speaker
with Geoff Johns and the like everything that led to the creation of this book is, Mary Marvel talks about Dr. Manhattan's dick. Specifically because Darla, who's the the little girl, sees it. But, that's i my argument about that is, that is up its own ass comics bad. Okay, yeah you you you say that. But, okay.
01:33:26
Speaker
I feel like Identity Crisis is is the same kind of up its own ass that you're talking about, right? Because it's like, specifically going back to shit like Gene Loring to shit like the, you know, the body swap issues and like the satellite league and and and Dr. Light, like trying to, you know, dig up all this deep cut comic stuff and kind of make it, make it for real, right?
01:33:54
Speaker
that Yeah, okay. And I feel like there was certainly a, there certainly was slash is a push to use identity crisis to hook casual readers or curious readers. Like it's in all those, I don't know if it still is, but for a long time when they had those like, here's where to start.
01:34:19
Speaker
It's like Dark Knight Returns and Identity Crisis are the comics they want you to read. And they they came up with that trade dress where it looks like a Brad Meltzer novel. it Matt, they want this one on the shelf next to the best-selling paperback of all time. The best-selling comic book of all time. They like they want this one to be, like even people who don't read comics have read Watchmen, but they know who Superman and Batman are. And if you read Watchmen and you liked it, which you probably did because you've heard it's really good and it is a well-crafted story, we've had that discussion, oh like this is what they want you to to do next. Like this is, they have specifically tried to create a bridge between
01:35:09
Speaker
the the book that you read because it's the comic book that's a real book and comics with Superman in them. Like this is, this is there to show you that comics with Superman in them can be just as good. So when you say this is like up its own ass comic book stuff, I agree with you in theory, but like this is what, this is a cold marketing attempt to use to leverage the Watchmen brand to bring people into reading oh Jeff Johns first volume of Justice League. That said,
01:35:47
Speaker
I would argue that it is already evidently a marketing attempt that failed. Whereas, Identity Crisis, we know people, we've talked to people, it was their first comic. It still sells pretty well, I think. It's still in print, for sure. Identity Crisis had a huge impact. This book Like, it will be a footnote just like before Watchmen was a footnote. I think that's, like, that that's the thing we don't necessarily know yet. And I think you're gonna be right, I think you're right. Because I don't think this was, I could be wrong, I don't feel like this was well received. I don't either. I don't see anybody talking about it. Yeah, except for us. Except for us. Here's, ah all right, let let's get into this.
Ignorance vs. Malice in Storytelling
01:36:45
Speaker
I want to talk about the notion of ignorance versus malice okay because and recording feeling and it like yeah I believe most of the mistakes of Doomsday Clock, much like what you argued in your essay about you know legacy characters coming or legacy characters, multiracial legacy characters being pushed aside for the old guys coming back. You didn't think anybody doing that necessarily had bad intentions, but it ended up being deleterious and ended up having a knock on effect that was very bad. Am am I characterizing that correctly?
01:37:38
Speaker
No, you're not because that like, that was the argument that I made is that like, I don't feel like James Robinson is like, is full of hate for minorities. I feel like he is working within and propping up a bad system. Okay. I think Doomsday Clock very much falls into that same category, where ah Not to say that ignorance is justified, it isn't. But I do not believe it to be malicious. I believe the intent to have been, I'm going to tell a good story that has a good message, and I also get to bring back the Justice Society.
01:38:29
Speaker
Both identity crisis and holy terror read to me as wholly malicious, completely malicious. Holy terror is just flat out racist. yeah Right? Holy terror is actively and intentionally hateful. Yes, to the point where it gets cartoonish in its racism and anti-Arab sentiment. In much the same way,
01:38:57
Speaker
identity crisis cartoonishly portrays mental illness, specifically a woman's mental illness. It also makes rape something a comic book supervillain does. And Doomsday Clock has many sins. The speech about both sides is um The stuff with Lil Baby Superman, which I think is probably the worst sin of the whole book. the The weird geopolitical conflict ideas that it has. It's deep confusion about race. And you know, gross stuff like children seeing Dr. Manhattan's dick.
01:39:53
Speaker
but this This weird confluence of comic books that were originally made for children mixing with this extremely adult content where a guy has his dick out all the time. It has plenty of sins. I don't see any of them as being malicious in the way I view identity crisis and holy terror.
01:40:20
Speaker
But that, I think, leads us back to the conversation about heroes in crisis, which we had very similar thoughts on, where I feel like the execution is the opposite of the intent that was ultimately incredibly hurtful, specifically to me. yeah um Also, like and I feel like the conversation about holy terror and identity crisis,
01:40:47
Speaker
um Like a lot of people, as you said, like at at least a few people were surprised or concerned that we ranked it below identity crisis, but because it is, you know, actively racist. Uh, but I feel like our, our counter argument for that was that identity crisis is actively misogynistic and was harder to ignore. Actively misogynistic and actively
01:41:19
Speaker
ah demonized and and portrayed badly mental illness. because Because the message of identity crisis is you get messed up enough by trauma, you're going to kill people. That's the message of that comic. Yeah. or you're going and and And the only way to resolve that is to erase the trauma.
01:41:50
Speaker
You got to take memories out of people's brains to make them get through it all. Yeah, which is also essentially the message of the heroes in crisis. Yeah, that that is the you know, that hey, don't don't go to therapy.
01:42:09
Speaker
you you will murder commander steel and try to frame booster gold for it if you if you go to therapy because all them bits matt all them bits the bad memories will be too much and you're gonna become a bad person just just a ah maniac killer i don't think i don't think doomsday clock is hateful in the same way like I don't think there is like there's a bunch of dumb stuff in this book but I don't think it's like hateful in the same way that either
01:42:56
Speaker
Uh, holy terror and identity crisis, I believe are intentional and heroes and crisis is unintentional. That is my ultimate argument. What you just articulated. But I feel like the, the counterpoint to that is that I don't think the motivation for this, it like I feel like there is a. Sinus like, and again, we, we, I'm falling into the trap because we cannot describe but motivations to creators because we don't know.
01:43:24
Speaker
So we have to we just have to talk about the book, but I definitely feel like there is a cold motivation for this two to service the brand, to to leverage the brand. Oh, it is a thousand percent. Oh, we have the best-selling graphic novel ever, the best-selling paperback that has ever been published.
01:43:53
Speaker
We have to do something with it. And the first attempt to do something with it was before Watchmen, which tanked. So this is the the go big or go home, okay, we'll mix it in with the DC Universe thing. Which again, my prediction and that is that this will also ultimately be considered to have tanked. And they're gonna try again. I swear they're gonna try again. oh get i would be I would be surprised. I would be shocked if we didn't get another attempt along these lines. I would be surprised if it's not with, uh, teen girl Ozymandias and, uh, and super
Watchmen TV Show vs. Doomsday Clock
01:44:40
Speaker
Manhattan. Oh, I don't think that set up. I don't think those characters are ever coming back. Yeah. I think it, I think that is entirely dependent because the thing is this has not yet been collected. Uh, the, the first,
01:44:55
Speaker
uh, six issues are out in a paperback because they came out two years ago. Uh, but the, neither the second half of the story nor the full story has been released in a collected edition. Um, and I think the consequences of this book will not be known one way or the other and until that happens. Like we know what happened with the before Watchmen six months later, it was like, it never happened. but Like that said though fine.
01:45:25
Speaker
Here's here's the big issue. Here's the big Counterpoint to this possibly being something with staying power The Watchmen TV show aired it took How many episodes of that TV show were there nine? I think I think so. Yeah, that sounds like that took nine weeks to air as soon as it was over you could stream the whole season on HBO now and The entire season is on HBO Max right now. You can buy a DVD of it or a Blu-ray. It is out there. You can get the whole thing. You can watch the whole thing. You can see the whole thing. It was the watchman thing that everybody was talking about in 2019. It has superseded this in every way already.
01:46:16
Speaker
If DC Comics tries to do another watchman thing, it'll be related to the TV show. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, do you think it is Like it's more likely that we'll get those characters. Yeah. A hundred percent. Cause people know those characters. People don't give a shit or know anything about the fucking super Manhattan or Rorschach two. Cause like how many people were buying issue 12 of this book? Maybe 60,000.
01:46:54
Speaker
How many people were watching Watchmen on TV? Hundreds of thousands, at least.
01:47:02
Speaker
ah Matt, can i can we talk for a brief moment? In the in the interest of this book's vaunted both sides-ism, can we talk about, I guess, the three things I like about this book? The three things that I think are good, actually. Well, I know one of them.
01:47:24
Speaker
ah You're a fan of Mime and Marionette, or specifically Marionette's invisible guns. but Well, Marionette's invisible guns and the fact that ah the Marionette's origin story is that her father made Marionette's and the Mime's origin story is that ah his father made giant panes of glass. That shit's fucking hilarious. Yeah. oh yeah The, hang on, up by the way, I'm ah i'm on Comic-Con right now
Artistic Praise for Gary Frank
01:48:00
Speaker
for November of 2019.
01:48:03
Speaker
ah Let's see. Oh, I guess ah you're looking, you're looking at sales figures. I'm looking at sales. Yeah, trying to figure it out. um So that's one. too, which I think we we kind of have to acknowledge is that even though what he is drawing is remarkably stupid and poorly constructed and bad and offensive, ah Gary Frank kind of does career level, like career best level work on this, which is sad and and alarming. and It is formally structured much like Watchmen. ah Like
01:48:42
Speaker
the formalism of the book. i don't It's not on par with Watchmen, but the layouts are really well done. ah yeah The look of what Gary Frank is doing is still his own style while very much having the look and feel of Dave Givens' Watchmen artwork.
01:49:03
Speaker
Yeah, there's a the the panel in this of, in number 12, of like Superman getting ready to like punch out a pojar, the Russian Firestorm. ah Like, that's a badass panel, like Superman like coming forward with his fist at Dr. Manhattan's face.
01:49:24
Speaker
Like, and the big, like, full page splash of the DC Universe characters, like, that that looks good. Like, it's really, like, Gary Frank is the guy you would want on this book to make it good. And yet, he he does a very good job with the art. I would certainly the art is better than our bottom two, ah holy terror and identity crisis.
01:49:54
Speaker
ah Matt, Doomsday Clock number 12 was the best-selling comic book of ah December 2019 with, according to Comic-Con, 117,926 copies estimated. Okay. More than I thought. Yeah. But the the the notion still stands that probably five times being charitable more people have seen the Watchmen TV show. Oh, bare mens. I don't know what HBO's viewership numbers are like, but it's probably more like 10 times more people saw the Watchmen TV show. Yeah, at least. um so gary Gary Frank
Superman's Universal Significance
01:50:40
Speaker
just legitimately good work on this, which is ah which is such a fucking bummer.
01:50:47
Speaker
like Like, Gary Frank might be the best artist who I don't know if he's drawn good comics. Superman and the Legion is pretty good. That Superman story that Jeff Johns wrote, that's pretty good. Was the Johns Superman run that he drew any good? Yeah, like Superman and the Legion, that was part of that run. Oh, okay. And the brilliant story? The one where they had to change the bottle on the cover from a beer bottle to say soda. Yes.
01:51:16
Speaker
Those that run with again Jeff Johns is pretty good ah But like when I think about Gary Frank I think about fucking like supreme power and this yeah, and it's depressing like Like I you know I talked about uh how watching Jared Leto in Suicide Squad is is really sad because he's trying so hard and like visibly trying very, very hard for so little result. But watching Joaquin Phoenix in Joker 2019 directed by Tom Phillips is kind of equally sad because you're watching someone who is very skilled give a very like legitimately like compelling
01:52:07
Speaker
very well acted performance saying the dumbest sheet you've ever heard in your life. And I feel like that's Gary Frank drawing Doomsday Clock. To ultimately no end, to ultimately make no point. Yeah. And, and again, that's kind of what Doomsday Clock is to me. It's just very confused. It's just a very, very confused book. it Because it says nothing and it is nothing. Because look,
01:52:36
Speaker
When you talked about Poshar, the Russian a firestorm, there's a whole thing in here about like this US-Russian conflict and how the USSR has its own Justice League, and they think the US government is funding the this the superheroes, and there's this whole anti-Superman conspiracy that leads to like people not believing in Superman. To what end? What does that lead to?
01:53:04
Speaker
Which turns out is true. It turns out that Martin Stein was a government stooge all along. yeah who so like Firestorm was created by the government, which if the government's going to create a superhero, they should probably be too better than Firestorm, sorry. they So it's all like a setup but where the conspiracy turns out to be true.
01:53:28
Speaker
where, what what is the end result? Superman says, well, uh, people don't believe in me, but I still have hope. And then the justice society shows up. That's how they all gets fixed. Like it's just a way to get to again, up its own ass superhero bullshit. And again, it's just, it just feels so confused. It's so convoluted to get to something so but dead, simple.
01:53:58
Speaker
And it it does not have the, like, the the thing about identity crisis and the thing about ah ah holy terror is that they have bad points to make and they very assuredly make those terrible, harmful, destructive points. This story is, I think, too confused to rise to their level.
01:54:27
Speaker
Yeah, butwa because it's it's for the brand. yes it's that it's It's that issue of ah of Action Comics where the with corporate Superman. This is a product of Hexis the Living Corporation right here, Matt. Yeah, it's it's it ultimately doesn't have a strong point because it it wasn't created with a strong point to make other than read more Watchmen brand products.
01:54:55
Speaker
yeah which i for dc comics and watchman brand products Yeah. Which I also think is if we could pin that down as the absolute because look, maybe everyone who went into this with the best of intentions and maybe like we We talked to Scott Snyder a while back like years like this would have been on Comics Alliance years ago when they were talking about doing Zero Year and he didn't want to do it because he really likes Batman year one but like if he didn't do it somebody was going to and maybe that's what they thought like hey
01:55:30
Speaker
If we don't do this and do the best we can, somebody else is going to do it. And so we've got to get in there and tell the best darn story we can. I don't think that was what happened, but I don't know. I think what happened was Watchmen sold a lot. And so we need more Watchmen books. And that is the end of motivation for telling the story that has no point. Third thing I like about it, Matt. Number three,
01:55:55
Speaker
I genuinely No reservations at all. Genuinely love the idea of someone, in this case, Dr. Manhattan, trying to take Superman out of the universe.
01:56:13
Speaker
and the DC universe itself, like as a universe, keeps making Superman because he is the immune system. He is the thing that protects the universe from bad things. he's like you You keep trying and you can never take him out of it because if he doesn't exist, he's going to exist. I love that.
01:56:37
Speaker
the The downside to that is that I feel like we have seen that done so much better in better comics by specifically Graham Morrison. Isn't it interesting that Jeff Johns could make a much better point about a comics thing that is very specifically a comics thing and that Does it really make a point about anything outside of the world of comics than something that tries to dig into real world geopolitics and issues? Yeah, which has always been a thing, right? Interesting. Very interesting. Yeah, and it's and it's like, what's the what's the best stuff he's ever written? Oh, it's Superman stuff. Like, if there's one character that you have to say that you're gonna be like, hey, Chris, who is Jeff Johns actually good at writing? I'm gonna be like, yeah, Superman. He does a real good Superman. He gets that guy.
01:57:25
Speaker
Unfortunately, there are other characters in this book, and and some of them are Mary Marvel, and some of them are Dr. Manhattan's dick. And some of them are the Justice Society, another group that Jeff Johns is pretty widely associated with. I'm so i'm so glad we got them back, though, because now we can have Jay Garrick tell everybody that Shazam's a pedophile again. Like, the last time Jeff Johns was writing the Justice Society.
01:57:52
Speaker
All right. But you forgot about that one. Bet you forgot about that one, didn't you, listeners? Well, we talked about it very recently. yeah um this oh and then By the way, there's just all the regular dumb stuff. like We've been talking about the very high concept dumb stuff in here. ah The regular dumb stuff is also present. Lois Lane not knowing about the Justice Society, even though she's she's post-crisis, pre-flashpoint, Lois Lyon, I didn't write that, you fucking wrote that. The entire scene at the end where Silk Spectre and ah Night Owl are in hiding, and the way they are in hiding is to change their name to Hollis, like Hollis Mason, and then put and a bunch of owl shit in their house, and then have pictures of Sally, just basic, in their front hallway, right in front of their front door.
01:58:46
Speaker
There's a picture of Laurie with dyed hair, so in incognito, with Sally, just basic, directly inside the front door. Or the shit where the moth is attracted to a flame because he's the moth. Yeah, yeah. Or like all the, the like, look.
01:59:07
Speaker
You know what? Maybe I'm dumb. I don't think I am, but
Doomsday Clock Narrative Critique
01:59:10
Speaker
maybe I am. I don't know. what like i and I know what the point of the pirate story is in Watchmen. I do not know what the story of the like the point of the Nathaniel Dusk stuff is, and nor do I know why it's a like movie marathon on TV and not a comic, which is the medium that it's in, because this isn't about the movie characters. It's not about Zack Snyder's Watchmen and Zack Snyder's Justice League.
01:59:37
Speaker
Like, I don't understand it. I don't know why it's there. And it's pointless. And all the back matter is also bad. All the shit- The back matter is worthless. It has no point. Superman being slower than speeding bullets is bad. The big fight scene on Mars is bad. There's a bunch of regular bad stuff in here. Well, all that stuff you just talked about is stuff that is part of the Watchmen brand.
02:00:05
Speaker
Why is there a side story about a movie? Because there was a side story in Watchmen. Why is there back matter? Because there was back matter in Watchmen. And you got to do what Watchmen did. Why is there a confrontation with Dr. Manhattan on Mars? Because Dr. Manhattan was on Mars in Watchmen. It's just checking the boxes of Watchmen brand hallmarks.
02:00:32
Speaker
That's it. um there If you don't read the back matter in Watchmen, if you don't read the pirate story in Watchmen, you miss a piece of the story. Like, maybe not a big piece, but you miss a piece of it. Like the like the pirate story is like, hey, this was happening in front of you all along, right? yeah um If you don't read the back matter in Doomsday Clock, doesn't matter.
02:01:00
Speaker
It's like, you there's no reason to read it. You miss nothing. like Yeah. Hey, we think the United States government created Firestorm. Okay. Well, that's also in the comic. That's in the text. Yeah. There is no, there's no additional experience provided by it. And I know cause I read every goddamn word of it. In fact, like but but some of the back matter in, uh, doomsday clock,
02:01:31
Speaker
i I think I'll have to go back and check the issues, but I almost feel like some of that text is obscured so you can't even read it. It's just like an art piece. It's just like something else to have in there. It's a DVD extra. It's like if the the charts in the current X-Men run were illegible and held no information.
02:01:57
Speaker
Yeah. Also, talk about another book that was going out concurrently with this and fucking crushing it was, uh, was X-Men. Imagine if this was like a tenth as good as House of X and Powers of X. Yeah, man. I don't know what to tell you. Is is that what it's supposed to be called, Powers of X? I have heard multiple, like Jerry Duggan called it Powers of X when he was on Ajax, and he works on those books, so.
02:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, I'm looking at the back matter to issue 10 right now of didn't they clock there is a letter to ah You know that actor Carver ah Who was actually? Dr. Manhattan, I think or like the guy dr. Manhattan knew I forget about what that whole subplot was about also deeply confused also the Colvin There's a letter from ah Carver Coleman, or from Carver Coleman's mother to Carver, that is unreadable because it's spattered in blood. And really, like I'm looking at it on Comixology, so it's probably small like not this small in print, but like everything is spattered in blood and in kind of a hard to read cursive. So it is, like it's almost like it's not meant to be read.
02:03:19
Speaker
Also the studio that employed Carver Coleman is Werner Brothers. Cause you know, there's a whole other company called Warner Brothers and we don't, they might be litigious but against DC Comics. The company they own. Yeah.
02:03:39
Speaker
um It's bad. It's bad and pointless and sucks. So here's my, here's but my spot for it, Chris. Okay.
02:03:49
Speaker
I think it's definitely worse than Heroes in Crisis. I think it's definitely not as harmful as Holy Terror. It is similarly confused as Marvel, but Marvel I think is less harmful.
02:04:15
Speaker
Marville is both less harmful and also more honest about servicing the brand. yeah I mean, it is all about the brand. Yeah, but it but you know that. Yeah, like it is. There is no confusion about that. So so my spot for it, I think is the new number 1086 between Marville and Holy Terror.
02:04:39
Speaker
I would I would still even after all this discussion, I would still push for 1089 below Identity Crisis. And I i end i think i think the the only thing that gives me pause is that there are those three things that I think are good about it. Identity Crisis is drawn by a generally good artist who does not do good work on that book. oh Like I like Rex Morales a lot, you know, Bearman's just fine, but I generally like him a lot. He does not do good work on that book.
02:05:13
Speaker
Uh, no, everybody looks, everybody looks weirdly cross-eyed in identity crisis. Gary Frank draws the shit out of this, except the one thing, like Gary Frank could draw literally anything. Uh, he, like everything in this book he draws well. The second he draws a child, it is the most horrifying thing I've ever seen. Oh, it's like the Renaissance art where all the children look like small adults.
02:05:37
Speaker
Yeah, with with disproportionate heads, it's very upsetting. And that's like the last page of Watchmen is this little adult ah who has been taken from his family and given to white people because that's how you make a Superman. Didn't think it through. You just you didn't say it to another person. hey Okay, let's I'll make one more argument about identity crisis versus this and Holy Terror versus this. Identity crisis say and Holy Terror are both Uh, one, one sin after the other, right? Identity crisis is seven issues of just getting worse and worse and making these characters more and more unappealing, making what they do more and more morally at best ambiguous at worst, reprehensible. And it's, it's a constant.
02:06:34
Speaker
crescendo toward a peak of awfulness. Holy terror starts awful and stays super awful again to the point of cartoonishness. Yeah. Doomsday clock is just mostly boring and kind of dumb until those handful of moments where it goes beyond boring and dumb to like, what the hell are you thinking?
02:07:03
Speaker
I mean, like i can't like again, there's three things I like about it, and I cannot dispute your point. Can you say three things you like about Identity Crisis? No, I don't like anything about Identity Crisis. Can you say three things you like about Holy Terror? I like that it's not about Batman. Okay. That was one of our points about Holy Terror. is that It exists in such an isolated bubble of you don't ever have to think about it other than knowing that Frank Miller is racist. right like you never have to You never have to deal with with holy terror. Somebody at DC put the fucking brakes on it and it was published by someone else. Nobody put the brakes on this.
02:07:56
Speaker
True. I think ah Holy Terror stands as simply worse than this. Again, the the malice versus ignorance argument. oh i can I can't argue. I can't argue your point. um So I think I have to concede that it is going to enter the list at number 1086. Or I guess it's going to be 1087. I do not think I added Amazing Spider-Man 400 to the master list. I'm looking at the expanded data list, so it's at 1086 in here. So, Identity Crisis will go to 1088. Yes, Identity Crisis is now number 1088. Doomsday Clock is in the Tertiary Ultimate spot. I don't know if that's a word, but it's a third from the bottom. How apropos that this goes in at 1086.
02:08:54
Speaker
Ooh, Matt, it's like we crafted this.
02:09:01
Speaker
Cannot fucking believe he takes the kid away. Jesus Christ. but forever but forever