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Every Story Ever: June 2025
1.2k Plays8 days ago
Time to rank stories once again, including one 2000s Avengers story we'd rather not.
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Transcript
Introduction and Zencastr Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
This show is recorded using Zencaster. If you are a podcaster, or you want to be a podcaster, and you want to be able to record remotely, you can do so using Zencaster.
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00:00:28
Speaker
Glorious, love you.
Every Story Ever: June 2025 Special
00:00:35
Speaker
We have a list on our website, warrockandajax.com, called Every Story Ever. What we're doing is we're taking lists from our listeners of three comic book stories, and then we are placing those stories on the list from best to worst comic book stories of all time
00:01:02
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the War Rocket Ajax Every Story Ever special for June 2025. My name is Matt Wilson.
00:01:13
Speaker
Chris Sims is here with me. Hi Matt. Thank you. Hey Chris. ah What do we do on this show? rate rank. break The comic books. i'd Now I'm getting rate and rank mixed up. It's so difficult.
00:01:26
Speaker
It's so hard. All time. We rate swords. We rank comic book stories. um We rank them on a big old list from best to worst. We sure do.
00:01:38
Speaker
And they're your submissions. And we we put them on the list.
Current Size of Every Story Ever List
00:01:41
Speaker
ah Chris, what is the current status of the Every Story Ever list? Matt, according to the expanded data Every Story Ever spreadsheet that I have...
00:01:52
Speaker
that I've got going right now open on my Apple Macintosh notebook computational tool.
00:02:04
Speaker
hu We have 1,621 items on the list. Some of them single issues. Some of them entire series. Some of them arcs.
00:02:17
Speaker
Some of them three panels of comic strip. Some of them one panel of comic strip. A single panel of comic strip. That's right. one A single panel nearly tore this podcast apart.
00:02:30
Speaker
That's true. We don't rate those anymore, though. We don't we don't rate... ah comic strips. You're damn right we don't. There's a moratorium.
00:02:42
Speaker
Actually, there's like two times that a single panel almost tore this podcast. one is One is on the list. One was disqualified from the list.
Critique of Mighty Avengers #1-6
00:02:53
Speaker
Because it was quote-unquote not a story.
00:02:56
Speaker
but it we've We've challenged the form.
00:03:02
Speaker
i think that's the important thing to remember here. We certainly have. ah Chris, I would say we should just dive right into our first list. You said something at the ah right before you hit record that makes me think I maybe don't want to do that.
00:03:22
Speaker
Well, we're going to have to do it anyway. ah This list is from Seth Finkelstein. And it's ah a list of stories from the Halcyon days from the back half of the No.
00:03:36
Speaker
no That's what's submitted. No, why would you why would you do that? Don't do that. First... We lived it once....is Mighty Avengers Numbers 1-6 by Brian Michael Bendis and Frank Cho, in which Ultron is a naked woman.
00:03:55
Speaker
Okay, look.
00:03:58
Speaker
Brian Michael Bendis was on the show recently. Friend of the show. he's He's at least been a guest on the show. And I think we have proven on occasion that there are some Bendis comics we really like. and Legitimately wrote one of my favorite Superman moments of all time.
00:04:20
Speaker
Yeah. i I think I like the Bendis Daredevil run more than you, but I i don't mind the Bendis Daredevil run at all. In fact, I would say I mostly like it. It stretches on a little too long, but it's good.
00:04:34
Speaker
Ultimate Spider-Man. Largely very good. um Lots of Bendis stuff. i'm i'm I like Powers. I like a lot of Bendis comics. This is dog shit, though.
00:04:47
Speaker
The Mighty Avengers 1 through 6 is dog shit. And if you go back and you read it, you will get Identity Crisis vibes from it. and Now, is this this isn't the wall this isn't the arc with Spider-Woman where...
00:05:06
Speaker
she's on the table. Cause I know, i know it's it's a Bendis comic and that Frank Cho drew it, but she's like on the table getting operated by the Hydra guys. Like she's flashing back to when they gave her superpowers and like,
00:05:21
Speaker
one of like One of the Hydra guys is literally like bringing over a tray with like silicone breast implants on it. is is Is that this story? No, that's, I believe, the next story. Oof.
00:05:37
Speaker
Because i I did not read this. Oh, you probably did the time. definitely didn't, dude. At the time it was coming out. This was 2007.
00:05:48
Speaker
If I had left up any of my old weekly comics reviews when I got frustrated at one line of code error and deleted my entire website, if I hadn't done that, I could prove to you that I didn't read this.
00:06:06
Speaker
um Okay, so here's what happens in this story. Iron Man, Tony Stark, gets infected with a virus that turns his body...
00:06:18
Speaker
And his armor combined into Ultron. Okay. And that version of Ultron is a naked lady. But because she's made of Tony Stark and his Iron Man armor, she's like half metal, half flesh.
00:06:38
Speaker
So it's one of those things where like she's a naked lady, but her her naughty bits are always metal, so she doesn't have nipples or... Genitalia.
00:06:49
Speaker
Okay, i have some questions. huh
00:06:56
Speaker
Tony Stark is ah a a gentleman. A human being, yes. Ultron is a robot who uses he-him pronouns.
00:07:09
Speaker
Not in this story. yeah Yeah, but I mean, like traditionally speaking. Traditionally, yes. um Iron Man's armor... is genderless. it is It is called the Iron Man.
00:07:25
Speaker
like there there there It has been sentient in the past. There's also a robot who uses she, her pronouns in Marvel Comics. That's Jocasta, but this is not Jocasta. Jocasta, yeah. um What I'm saying is, why does Tony Stark plus Ultron plus armor None of which are are ladies.
00:07:54
Speaker
Why does that make a naked lady? Because Frank Cho is drawing it. Is there any... like in kit like even the I'll take the flimsiest reason.
Cho's Art Style Discussion
00:08:05
Speaker
I don't remember. But i don't remember there I don't remember there being a reason. Is there ah is there like a panel where Tony is like, yeah, I've always pictured myself as a lady with just...
00:08:21
Speaker
straight up rockin' cans.
00:08:25
Speaker
Not that I can recall.
00:08:30
Speaker
i like I haven't read it re-read it closely, but I sincerely don't remember why
00:08:39
Speaker
the the metal and flesh lady with rockin' cans is Ultron. That would Toadie's words, not mine. I want to stress that. That would be Tony Stark's, the way that he would refer to this. not That is not me talking. That's me writing the character Tony Stark.
00:08:58
Speaker
Right. ah Other than Frank Cho is drawing her. And there are so many occasions throughout this arc, and throughout Frank Cho continuing to read the the book, or draw the book,
00:09:15
Speaker
Where it's like, just excuses for him to draw women in sexual ways. Can I say something mean?
00:09:28
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:31
Speaker
Frank Cho is maybe the best artist at drawing sexy naked ladies that I want whose art I want to encounter the least.
00:09:49
Speaker
Sure. Like, get on I cannot deny that he is certainly quite good at what he does. Very good at what he does. Yeah. like like Every time I see it, I'm just like, all right.
00:10:04
Speaker
Well, Frank Cho, the guy, has not done much to help that. Yeah, but, I mean, like even, like... like Even the art, I'm always just like, eh, okay.
00:10:16
Speaker
Well, he shouldn't be drawing Avengers. I mean, well, that's the thing is, I'm looking at these issues now. I definitely didn't read them. And, like, the action stuff, the sequential stuff isn't bad. If anything, like, the naked lady stuff is very distracting from it.
00:10:32
Speaker
Yes. Well, there's a lot of, like... Okay. There's a, like... There's one cover that is exactly what this book is. It's the cover to issue number three.
00:10:46
Speaker
It's Ultron looking like regular-ass Ultron in a panel on the cover. It's the Sentry with glowing eyes. It's Black Widow showing you her butt, which happens throughout the comic.
00:11:01
Speaker
Just constant Black Widow butt shots. And Tigra in a bikini looking at you all sexy. And, like, that constantly happens in this. In this issue, there's just a shot of Tigra, like, in a bikini, legs spread, like... Look, Matt, you know I hate to be fair.
00:11:25
Speaker
You know I hate it. I mean, that's Tigra. To be fair, that is Tigra's costume, and that ain't Frank Jo's fault. That particular thing ain't Frank Jo's fault. No, but the way she's posed is... like you look at the like If you look at the action stuff, there's like a bit where Ares is using chopped-in half like holding the legs of an Iron Man armor like a gun using the repulsor jets to blast another armored guy in the face.
00:11:54
Speaker
And, like, that's pretty cool. Yeah. But then, like, you see this page where Black Widow is is training some people, and she's, like, decided to wear her sexy training clothes.
00:12:07
Speaker
Uh-huh. Which are just, like... They're kind of just, like, normal training clothes, but... a It's drawn all sexy, for sure. Like, it's undies.
00:12:20
Speaker
Oh, no, man. Like...
00:12:24
Speaker
There's stuff in here that's good. There's a part where um the sentry stops the helicarrier falling out of the sky. And the sentry like catches it, and there's like a a pretty long sequence of him bringing it back down.
00:12:42
Speaker
Cool. like There's another part where the sentry destroys a Stark satellite. That's pretty good. But there's a long portion where Ultron is just standing in the same spot. And talking.
00:12:54
Speaker
And then there's a fight, but she's still standing in the same spot. And then, in issue four, Ultron kills Sentry's wife. Yeah, sexily. Sexily. She like gets up on her bed and is all like squatting on her.
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah. I'm trying to describe this in a way that no one can jack off to.
00:13:15
Speaker
And I know they'll try. this This sucks, man. Like,
Analysis: Spidey Meets the President
00:13:20
Speaker
it... There are parts of it that are good. It's better than Identity Crisis because, you know, we could list all kinds of reasons.
00:13:31
Speaker
But it's it's one of Bendis' worst comics. Like, it if it's not it's not good. I think the explanation for Ultron being a sexy lady as I continue to look through it... wants look like Janet. It wants like Janet Van Dyne?
00:13:50
Speaker
Is that it? Yeah. Like, she says, why do you look exactly like me? Okay. And the Ultron says, because I love you. Which is interesting, I guess. um Except, like, I wouldn't have known that she was supposed to look exactly like Jan yeah if that line was not in there.
00:14:17
Speaker
Like... There's a sense that like she's trying to seduce humanity, which i would that would make more sense.
00:14:29
Speaker
um I think Ultron should show up more often and be like, check out my rockin' bod. Yeah. I've really been hitting the gym. Check out these bazongas on this yeah totally rockin' bod.
00:14:41
Speaker
I'm Ultron. Yeah. I don't know, man. I don't know. It's... It ain't good. It doesn't seem like I would enjoy it.
00:14:55
Speaker
As I said, I have not read this. It does not seem like I would enjoy it for sure. Like...
00:15:05
Speaker
Lindy Reynolds is alive again by issue six. Which is... from Did a pretty bad job of killing her, I guess. Good and terrible, right? Like... it's that's some That's some real Professor X is alive.
00:15:22
Speaker
Professor X is dead. Professor X is alive! Yeah. so It is very much that. yeah Let me see. Let me see where it goes on the list. This is all you, buddy.
00:15:38
Speaker
I had other things to be mad about in 2007. I don't think it's bottom-bottom, but it's like... What we have 1500? Daredevil, Guardian, Devil.
00:15:51
Speaker
Like, it's probably that bad.
00:15:57
Speaker
ah It's not as fun as Heart of Hush.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, Heart of Hush. Like, the further we get from Heart of Hush, the more I'm like, maybe I was a little too harsh on that. I mean, it does suck, but it's also dumb. It's quaint. Yeah.
00:16:15
Speaker
like I have more of an affinity for Angel Punisher. I have more... There's... Okay, it's about as bad as Forever Evil. But Matt!
00:16:28
Speaker
But you love Forever Evil! I know, that's your joke about it, because it has one thing that I think is funny. Boy, i can... but I am on your last nerve right now. i can tell. Jeepers.
00:16:43
Speaker
All right. Sorry. It's funny that Ultraman snorts kryptonite. That's funny. Matt, I'm just trying to do a running gag. That's all. I understand. I'm trying to do a runner.
00:16:54
Speaker
ah Let's see. I'm going to put it below Forever Evil. All right. Putting it below Forever Evil officially puts it in the bottom. No, it almost puts it in the bottom hundred.
00:17:06
Speaker
Okay. Here's what I think. I don't think it's as bad as Dark Side War, a comic that made me extremely mad. Dark Side War was largely incomprehensible.
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah, and yes, yes. And then batman and then Batman asked what the Joker's true name was. Like, he's a fucking wizard.
00:17:32
Speaker
And then he found out that there were three Jokers, and that the world's greatest detective is actually a fucking dumbass.
00:17:41
Speaker
Someone at Heroes Con, a very nice guy, ah but someone at Heroes Con told me that we were too hard on three Jokers. We weren't. And all I could do was laugh and say, no, we weren't.
00:17:55
Speaker
Yeah, don't, no, we we weren't. it's Don't worry. Don't worry. ah All right. I want to put this between Extreme Justice 0-14 and Batman the Cult, I think. Like, if you liked it, that's fine.
00:18:11
Speaker
you know Oh, he didn't say he liked it. ah Okay. i didn't He just said we were too hard on it, but i I don't think that's true. um This is the new 1524, I think.
00:18:22
Speaker
Okay, so it does it does break the bottom, Hundo. That's the idea that you're saying. one through six Worse than extreme justice. Above the cult.
00:18:34
Speaker
Above the cult, yeah. okay Extreme Justice is pretty bad, dude. It's pretty bad. but This is worse. Does this have a title, this story? I'm just calling it Sexy Lady Ultron.
00:18:47
Speaker
That's pretty good. ah They should have called it that. If that was on the paperback, I would bump this up 100 spots. Yeah, Sexy Lady Ultron.
00:19:00
Speaker
I don't think it has like ah an overall arc title. So, call it what you will. It's part of the initiative, baby. It's part of the initiative.
00:19:13
Speaker
Although, you couldn't tell. i guess the Mighty Avengers were an initiative team, right? Yeah, man. ah For whatever place they're supposed to be.
00:19:26
Speaker
LA or whatever it was. I don't remember. Oh, no. It's New York. It wasn't LA because California had the order. Yeah, it's New York. it was It was Manhattan. Oh, right, because they go to the Century's Tower and and yeah and ah Sexy Lady Ultron is doing a big old squat on Lindy Reynolds.
00:19:51
Speaker
All Matt, do you want to stop? We call it there? No, let's go to the next story. Because I'm tired. I got a lot of video games I could be playing. That's true. Actually, this next one will be fun to talk about on Seth's List. Okay, all right. It's um the backup story from Amazing Spider-Man number 583.
00:20:08
Speaker
It's called Spidey Meets the President by Zeb Wells and Todd Nock, in which Spidey does, in fact, meet Barack Obama. Boy, that one...
00:20:21
Speaker
Look,
00:20:24
Speaker
we're good we as you said, we can have a lot of fun talking about this one. What I would say, Matt, is that you can have a lot of fun talking about this one. Because I was working at a comic book store when this came out.
00:20:38
Speaker
ah hu Oh, and people people were real normal about it, I'm sure. People were real normal about it.
00:20:46
Speaker
And we ordered as many as we should have. Because I believe this was a thing. What number is this? I believe this is a thing where
00:21:04
Speaker
maybe they didn't tell us. Because Marvel would occasionally do things where they just wouldn't tell you they were doing shit, and then you'd literally find out from the Today Show. Uh-huh.
00:21:15
Speaker
Right. And...
00:21:20
Speaker
This, i think, was one of them. And boy, the Barack Hussein Obama was on the cover of that comic. He was on the cover of some issues of that comic.
00:21:35
Speaker
he was like yeah He was on this one. um like I think there was a variant cover that didn't have him on it. but theres Well, there was a main cover of the issue that didn't have him, and then there was like a cover for the backup.
00:21:50
Speaker
ah that did have him on it. or yeah and i guess that I guess he was on the variant, but it might have been a 50-50 variant or something like that. Yeah, well, let me tell you ah what people which one people wanted.
00:22:02
Speaker
The one without Barack Obama? They didn't want the one drawn by John Romita. Oh, I see. yes, yes. Yeah, they wanted the one with Barack Obama on it. i'm I'm imagining what people in South Carolina wanted, but like ah plenty of people in Columbia, I'm sure, wanted Barack Obama. Yeah. yeah but like i mean get like it was If nothing else, it was a big you know big collector's item deal. Sure. Yeah. oh but People were a lot more hyped about this than that I shoot a savage dragon.
00:22:35
Speaker
I'll tell you ah but the the the The Savage Dragon issue with Obama, yeah. Yeah, the Savage Dragon where Dragon endorsed Obama for president before he was president.
Comic Store Reactions to Obama Spider-Man
00:22:48
Speaker
That's right. Because Savage Dragon was, of course, in Chicago. um Yeah, man, my experience of this comic was... a lot of people being mad that I didn't have it.
00:23:02
Speaker
And a lot of people just being mad at it about me or mad about it at me. Right. And, and some dude, uh, a comic book store that, uh, a different comic book store in South Carolina.
00:23:16
Speaker
Um, a dude fully, uh, this is the one that, uh, our buddy, if you're a long time Ajax listener, you'll recall Dr. K. Uh, Eisner award winner, Dr. K. That's right.
00:23:29
Speaker
ah who ah straight up walked into comic book shop that was in Florence, ah and heard dudes dropping the N-word about this one.
00:23:41
Speaker
And then like was like, okay, well, cancel everything then. I no longer wish to shop at the only local comic book store in Florence, South Carolina, right now.
00:23:53
Speaker
I don't know if the... i don't know if the what the current Florence comic shop scene is, but I'm pretty sure that store is done. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man.
00:24:04
Speaker
My experience is as a retailer of this one, rough. But the story's fine. The story's fine. It's like, it's kind of a bunch of nothing. It's it's like Peter's at the inauguration taking pictures, which he wouldn't be.
00:24:21
Speaker
I mean, he might be. He's not a White House court correspondent, White House photographer. No, like but I mean, it's a big deal. You might want to, you know, you might want to send your guys. He's the best he's the best guy they got.
00:24:33
Speaker
Sure. ah But in the middle of the inauguration, a second, Barack Obama shows up. And there's like a little bit of confusion about ah which which Obama is the real Obama.
00:24:48
Speaker
And And ah I think they decide that they're going to like shoot hoops to determine who the real Obama is.
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah. yeah and ah And then the chameleon, who obviously is the chameleon, reveals himself. and I do like that the ah they basically ask Barack Obama trivia and which is what was his nickname on his high school's varsity basketball team.
00:25:25
Speaker
And the real Barack Obama says Barry Obama. Yeah. And then comedian's like, that's not true. It was Baraskin Obama. That's pretty funny. Which is a really, like, that's a really good bit.
00:25:40
Speaker
That's a really good joke. ah and And he's talking about a basketball diamond and wearing a helmet. Yeah. Yeah. ah But anyway, Chameleon reveals that he's Chameleon, and then Spider-Man says, you hear that, Chameleon?
00:25:53
Speaker
The president-elect here just appointed me secretary of shutting you up. And he punches Chameleon webs him up. And then Obama gets inaugurated, and the last line – in the presidency ah The last line Spider-Man saying, uh-oh, I think Biden sees me, which is also funny. That is also funny. yeah like there's There's funny stuff in it. like it is It is really helped by Zeb Wells writing some good jokes into it. Because because like as a story, it's kind of nothing.
00:26:28
Speaker
yeah but like It kind of has to be nothing, because it needs to be... It needs to be safe, and it needs to be short, and it needs to be like no nobody can get mad at it.
00:26:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's five pages long. Yeah, and and so it's got to be like, all you can do is the simplest possible plot and some funny jokes. And I mean, you know, you and me, we're Zeb Wells fans.
00:26:55
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, this is a good one. yeah like it's it's well Like we said, it's it's kind of nothing, but it is an enjoyable five pages.
00:27:06
Speaker
I really like Todd Nock. Chad Bowers and I worked with Todd Nock when we did Sleepwalker, and he did a fucking bang-up job. yeah ah The coloring in this is the weirdest coloring I have seen on his art.
00:27:23
Speaker
It's very shiny. Yeah, it's it's really shiny, and it's really kind of painted-ish, and it doesn't go with his pencils. it's like it's it's like It's like coloring for Phil Jimenez art.
00:27:40
Speaker
Well, Phil Jimenez does the cover. the very Yeah, both the cover. yeah yeah Phil Jimenez does the cover, and it's like a perfect likeness of Obama. like It looks like him.
00:27:53
Speaker
The Obama in the story does not look like Obama.
00:27:59
Speaker
He's just kind of generic guy. like a Todd Knott guy. Yeah, he looks like a Todd Knott guy. He doesn't look like Barack Obama. But the Obama on the cover is like exactly what he, you know, not even a caricature. It's just a likeness, you know?
00:28:16
Speaker
ah there There may have been a little bit of ah a light box involved in that one. You think? You think maybe? Never besmirch Phil Jimenez?
00:28:28
Speaker
Look, you gotta to do what you gotta do. You wanna get it right. Yeah. He's the first black president. yeah You gotta make sure he's drawn well. Wouldn't it be weird if Marvel Comics slash Zeb Wells...
00:28:42
Speaker
had decided to take any hardline political stance in this five-page backup story. Like, anyone at all.
00:28:54
Speaker
Like, at the end, Spider-Man says, don't kill anybody with any drones. I was thinking Spider-Man being like, whew, damn, I think I hurt my hand punching the chameleon. And I don't have insurance. I can't afford it, because I'm a freelancer.
00:29:08
Speaker
i don't What are you going to do about that, Mr. Obama? mr President? don't that's particularly hard line. but I mean, it's a harder line than what's in here, but yeah. Yeah, the Spider-Man was like, in the word Afghanistan!
00:29:23
Speaker
Spider-Man's like like, no, no, no, you're not a socialist enough, Barack Obama. Yeah. Mary Jane brought home some really interesting literature.
00:29:35
Speaker
Ha ha ha ha! I've been going to my local DSA meetings and i feel like learning a lot. ok Peter votes.
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah. Do you think Peter is politically aware? i don't know. i don't think he keeps up. I think it's like it's he i i straight up think, even in the the times when they're broken up, I think he calls MJ and he and he's like, who am I voting for?
Spider-Man's Political Awareness?
00:30:05
Speaker
For mayor? I do halfway think that Peter would forget that it's election day. Every year. Like, maybe MJ makes him vote.
00:30:19
Speaker
Or, like, reminds him to vote. Or, like, gets him a mail-in ballot or something. Oh, he's probably he probably does mail-in. Yeah. he's got He's got to do mail-in. I don't think. he's He's not waiting in line.
00:30:30
Speaker
No. You can't be waiting in line when the rhino shows up, man. If he had to vote on election day, he would forget every time. Yeah. no Like, mail-in early voting is what Peter's like, oh, thank God.
00:30:44
Speaker
Because, you know, Peter cares about things. Yeah. And he's a science guy. Like, he's not irresponsible, obviously. also think that Jonah probably keeps him apprised of what's going on. I bet he asked Jonah who he's voting for, and then he's like, cool, the other guy.
00:31:03
Speaker
But I think Jonah would actually probably have good politics. I don't think Jonah has good politics. But he's a like an old-school Democrat journalist. I don't think Jonah has the worst politics, but I don't think he's got good politics.
00:31:20
Speaker
I think he's very cynical about politics. but like Jonah...
00:31:27
Speaker
I'm not going to say Jonah doesn't vote, because I think he does... But I do think Jonah's like, they've already decided who's going to win this election.
00:31:36
Speaker
i've i've You think that decision doesn't happen in the in the in a locked room with cigars? in ah In a smoke-filled room? says, smoking his cigar. yeah I think Jonah... I've met a lot of old reporters who who became editors.
00:31:52
Speaker
And they are the most like callous, cynical people about this kind of thing in the world. But they also have... like Opinions where you're like, damn, you're right. Yeah, i mean, that's Robbie.
00:32:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's Robbie. That's absolutely Robbie. Yeah. Robbie votes. Robbie makes it a point to vote first thing on on election morning.
00:32:18
Speaker
ah Where's the part of the list where like it's okay? It's like the 1100s at this point. Yeah, like, okay, at number 1100, we have Batman Batgirl, the introduction of Batgirl.
00:32:32
Speaker
I mean, that's certainly much more consequential. Well, wait, that's that's the that's actually the the but ah Betty Kane Batgirl. Oh, right. Okay.
00:32:44
Speaker
Yes. I still think probably more consequential. But I mean, this was a big deal at the time. It was. i mean, is it better than him in Fantastic Four 66 through 67?
00:32:56
Speaker
Okay. Is it better than the story about that nasty freak? In Legends of the Dark Knight. Dr. Hugo Strange. That's actually, that's not that story.
00:33:08
Speaker
That's right. that's that ah Yes, you're right. Prey is the story you're thinking of, which is about that nasty freak Hugo Strange. This is Shaman, which is... Which is different. ah I think Shaman's probably better.
00:33:21
Speaker
Okay, so this will be the new number 1104. Yeah. and So it's it is Amazing Spider-Man 5... five eighty three But it's the backup.
00:33:36
Speaker
So I'm going to put Amazing Spider-Man 583 backup. Spidey meets the president is the name of the story. Obama. Yes, Spidey meets the president. Now, is this is this first and O, Barack Obama?
00:33:49
Speaker
It's definitely O. But do we count the earlier appearance in Savage Ray? It's Yeah. How is it O? Because he talks about playing basketball in high school.
00:34:04
Speaker
He gets inaugurated, so I guess that's O. Yeah. like It's like how Gambit, you didn't get his origin in the first issue. so do we count this as, okay, this is Barack Obama's first Marvel appearance, but as we said, i believe his first appearance is in Savage Dragon. so that dragon Savage Dragon has to be first.
00:34:25
Speaker
Okay, so this is 2-0. Of Barry Obama. Yeah. of of barry obama
00:34:33
Speaker
Okay, finally on Seth's list is Ultimate Spider-Man numbers 97 105. I got to make sure I've got this listed correctly in here. Okay. 2 and 0 colon Barack Hussein Obama. There we go. Okay.
00:34:53
Speaker
You got it? I got it. All right.
Ultimate Spider-Man Clone Saga Review
00:34:57
Speaker
Next on Seth's list is Ultimate Spider-Man 97-105 by Bendis and Bagley, The Clone Saga.
00:35:07
Speaker
I didn my dad didn't read that, dog. I know I read I know i read these i was reading Ultimate of with Spider-Man for a long time. But like, damn if I remember a thing about this story.
00:35:22
Speaker
This has got Kitty Pryde in it. Yeah, Kitty Pryde was like ah like a major character in the book for a while. Have we not done this? I feel like we've done this.
00:35:35
Speaker
um I'll check and see. But it's got the Scorpion in it, and then Scorpion turns out to be ah a clone of Peter. and then Speaking of nasty freaks, is there an ultimate nasty freak?
00:35:53
Speaker
The Jackal? Kilometers Warren? I don't remember if Jekyll was part of this or not.
00:36:03
Speaker
Let's see. Completely no-selling my very funny joke.
00:36:10
Speaker
I'm trying to answer your very serious question. It was very serious, that's true.
00:36:18
Speaker
Let's see There's... like Basically, Kane is in this. That's gotta to be Kane. yeah ah Ultimate Reed Richards is in this, the guy who would become the maker.
00:36:33
Speaker
Is he wearing his nerd helmet? He's not wearing his nerd helmet in this.
00:36:39
Speaker
Does he have his cool bowl cut like he had? No. He's got like a regular haircut.
00:36:49
Speaker
haircut Richard Parker comes back. Oof. There is six-armed Peter clone. I know that we're not, we're further much further behind on Every Story Ever lists than this, but I do feel like Seth heard Brian Bendis on the show and then was like, i gotta get his ass.
00:37:16
Speaker
ah Gotta make the Ajax boys talk some shit. did know Did know that he was going to come back. i Look, I'm looking through here. um Carnage. Carnage is one of the Peter clones in this, as I recall.
00:37:32
Speaker
ah not the best Not the best Ultimate Spider-Man story. God damn! there's a ah There's another naked woman whose privates are covered by smoke.
00:37:46
Speaker
And it's Gwen Stacy. So it's a teenager. Fucking hell. Matt, I haven't heard privates in a hot minute. Privates. That's funny.
00:37:58
Speaker
I want to have some decorum.
00:38:02
Speaker
Oh, and there's a spider woman who's like a Lady Peter. I forgot about that.
00:38:10
Speaker
Like, girl Peter Parker. Yeah, I remember that. Rule, what's the number? i don't Matt, I don't remember which one is the dirty one and which you one is the is the lady one.
00:38:25
Speaker
Is it Rule 34? Is that the one? i think that might be the porno one. Is that the porno one, so it's Rule 67? I don't think that's one at all.
00:38:36
Speaker
Okay. The porno one should have been Rule 69, but nobody didn't fucking think about it. Making me do all the work as usual.
00:38:49
Speaker
Nobody even remembers what that's from. Which is like a list of like, here are the rules of the internet. Which was on something awful or something. It was a.txt file that you would get on a on a floppy disk from your friend. Whose name was also Matt, but it's not you.
00:39:10
Speaker
yeah I do not see... absolute freak Miles Warren and in this. i don't How are you going to do the Clone Saga without that nasty boy? They didn't.
00:39:21
Speaker
Talk about Rule 69. Believe it or not. ah Yeah, this was kind of where so Ultimate Spider-Man was losing me, I gotta say. um It's like a big clone story, but like very condensed. like you know We talk about Ultimate Spider-Man being very... um drawn out, decompressed.
00:39:46
Speaker
But this is a really super condensed version of the Clone Saga that introduces a bunch of stuff that i don't not I do not really recall recall coming back in any way.
00:40:00
Speaker
And also Nick Fury just shows up and cleans it all up and gets rid of the clones. It's, I don't know, man. like It's not awful, but like, it's It's not what I remember being the best of Ultimate Spider-Man.
00:40:16
Speaker
Here's the question I would have about this story. All right. Does this story exist for any reason other than there is a story already that is the clone saga for Spider-Man?
00:40:30
Speaker
I think it's trying to be cheeky. Yeah. Okay. Because this was a period of time. this was This would have been 2006, 2007. Yeah. two thousand six two thousand and seven ah
00:40:45
Speaker
where you know the Clone Saga was absolutely reviled. And it was 2006. The Clone Saga was absolutely reviled, and and people like there had not been any kind of like, oh, actually, it was fun sort of re assessment that has happened in the last few years, you know?
00:41:15
Speaker
um And so, calling i calling a story a clone saga, I think, was Bendis trying to say, oh well, I'll write a clone saga that'll sell. You know?
00:41:26
Speaker
That kind of thing. And also, it was the introduction of Carnage. It was the introduction of Ultimate Carnage. Should have called him Clonage.
00:41:36
Speaker
The Maximum Clonage. Oh, and Carnage was Gwen Stacy. it pass I forgot about that. How did you bury the lead on that one, Matt? I absolutely forgot that Carnage was Gwen Stacy. That's why she's naked. I can't believe the casualness with which you just dropped that on me. that's i for i forgot about that. that's That's why she's naked in that one panel. Because shes Carnage is naked so much.
00:42:02
Speaker
Well, because she loses the symbiote. And then, yeah. um and And her privates are covered in smoke. Stop it.
00:42:13
Speaker
ah
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, on map it's it's ah it's an attempt to get a bunch of stuff into a book. And, you know, it's like half successful, maybe. All right. Well, I have not read it. and Okay. Okay.
00:42:37
Speaker
ah It's better than that Avengers story. It's worse than the Barack Obama story. That's a pretty wide range of comics, Matt.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:53
Speaker
Let's see.
00:42:56
Speaker
Hobgoblin Lives is at 1281. guess that's better.
00:43:03
Speaker
ah
00:43:07
Speaker
Spider-Man Identity Crisis is at 1314. That's the story that introduces the Slingers. Yeah, and I know you love the Slingers. That's not even a joke. That's not even a joke or a running gag.
00:43:20
Speaker
No, i I genuinely like the Slingers.
00:43:26
Speaker
ah Let's see. Amazing Spider-Man 552 554 Freak is it thirteen seventy six
00:43:34
Speaker
i put this above that
00:43:39
Speaker
Spider-Man 31 to 35, Strzezinski-Romita is at 1367. I think this goes above that too. It's better than Streets of Poison.
00:43:50
Speaker
I think it's equally as good as Maximum Carnage. But I'll put it two spots below Maximum Carnage at the new number 1360. ah but Right above Streets of Poison.
00:44:03
Speaker
i was about to say, I was not going to let you put it.
00:44:07
Speaker
I was not going to let you put it above maximum carnage.
00:44:13
Speaker
It's, it's, so that puts it between the winter men one through five and captain America streets of poison.
00:44:23
Speaker
ah So that's the clone saga, which is numbers 97 to one Oh five. That's a long arc, but it sure is shorter than the real clone saga.
00:44:41
Speaker
all right What a list. What a list. What a list we have here. And that was sent to us. Tough one to get through, buddy. ah Here's our next list. It's from Robert Headley.
00:44:54
Speaker
And it's just random. Random stuff. Oh, with the guy with the arms?
00:45:00
Speaker
No, not the character random. ah This is random stuff. um First is One Punch Man numbers five through six. Mosquito queen Queen and Genos shows up.
00:45:14
Speaker
I know we have ranked some One Punch Man.
00:45:19
Speaker
I think we certainly got to where Genos showed up, right? We have One Punch Man chapters 1 through 4, which almost certainly includes this, right? um is This is 5 and 6. Yeah,
00:45:31
Speaker
yeah um
00:45:34
Speaker
I don't know. like i I liked this a lot, but I do feel like it's ah kind of like... This is kind of a thing that I feel like I would have to read again. i would not feel bad about wanting to read it again.
00:45:48
Speaker
i mean, do you think it would just go with 1 through 4? Pretty much. I mean, Genos is a really good, solid character. But I do think it i do think it is Notable enough to be separate, because Geno showing up does change the dynamic of the book a little bit.
00:46:07
Speaker
Okay. But I don't remember well enough to rank it. Alright, so we're gonna we're going to table that. Table that. Come back to it, though.
00:46:19
Speaker
Maybe I'll catch up on One Punch Man. Once I finish catching up on One Piece.
00:46:25
Speaker
Which is going to take a long time. I've only got... 700 more chapters. Oh, well, but you'll make quick work of that. It's a lot of book.
00:46:37
Speaker
Next on Robert's list is The Tick, Volume 1, Numbers 1 through 2.
00:46:44
Speaker
i don't know if i don't know if that's the right thing to call a story.
00:46:58
Speaker
I feel like there's more going on than just the two issues. like I definitely remember reading The Tick in a trade paperback that had the first six.
00:47:10
Speaker
You know?
00:47:13
Speaker
I don't know if I ever read the original Tick comics. Man, I did. Boy, I did. i mean, I read Benitos, obviously, and I've read some stuff, but i
00:47:30
Speaker
I mean, you know, largely know it from the show. The Tick in the original comic is pretty definitely different from what the cartoon would be, and then what the
00:47:49
Speaker
the Tick's comics would become. Like, what what Benito ended up writing. Like, Benito's version of the Tick is very... Similar to the cartoon, although like there's definitely elements from the comic in there as well.
00:48:04
Speaker
ah Let's see. i the the The first two issues of The Tick, a big chunk of it is like The Tick just arriving in the city um with his viewfinder.
00:48:21
Speaker
um he He busts out of a padded room. and goes out into the city ah and like you know falls on his head fights ninjas.
00:48:33
Speaker
It was very much a commentary of the the comics of the time, particularly the indie comics of the time. There were a lot of ninjas in the indie comics of the time. Yes, it does have that bit from the cartoon where he's at the diner that looks like Nighthawks.
00:48:50
Speaker
And there's a guy, the the guy says... ah what are you some kind of weirdo? And he goes, no, I'm a tick. And then the guy at the bar says, you're not a tick. And he goes, why am I not a tick?
00:49:03
Speaker
And the guy goes, ticks are arachnids. They got eight legs. You haven't got eight legs. And he goes, what are you an expert? And the guy goes, do you suck blood? And he goes, I got a straw right here. i could suck your blood right now.
00:49:15
Speaker
That's in the cartoon. That's in the cartoon. That's in the pilot of the cartoon. Um, But like that first issue is very much just like an intro, and then the Tick gets a job at a newspaper.
00:49:32
Speaker
Well, he meets a superhero who is basically Clark Kent, whose name is something Oppenheimer. I'll find his name here in a second. But um
00:49:45
Speaker
he meets essentially Superman, and ah they get hit by a subway train. And then they both go ah work at – oh, it's Clark Oppenheimer. His name's Clark Oppenheimer.
00:50:00
Speaker
um they go They both go work at the same newspaper. And the second issue is just the tick-annoying Clark Oppenheimer. Like – Constantly.
00:50:12
Speaker
mean, that seems like it's a story, then. It's funny. It's very funny. um it's It's very much just like a Superman parody. like The editor is named Perry Bage.
00:50:24
Speaker
That's pretty good. Yeah. ah There's one joke in particular that's very good about um the Tick like pestering Clark to go to lunch.
00:50:39
Speaker
And... And I said something about his car. i'm going to find it here in a second. but um it like so So Clark Oppenheimer is in like you know full disguise in like his suit and glasses and everything. And the Tick is just wearing a tie given on his superhero costume.
00:51:00
Speaker
That's good. it's It's funny. Like... or The Tick comics are very funny, Chris. You should you should read them. Yeah, I'm kind of like, thinking about it now, I'm very surprised that I haven't.
00:51:13
Speaker
Like, seems like the kind of thing I would have. yeah And yet, here we are.
00:51:21
Speaker
Maybe I didn't, I just don't remember, but it would have been It would have been 20 years ago. if you yeah Or more. I read these in college, for sure. yeah I remember the the there being color versions called Chroma Tick.
00:51:38
Speaker
ah That's good. Those were the ones I read. It's a good joke. It's a good joke. um So the tick gets fired. For um being annoying and just just beating people up and not – oh, he he got hired to do the crossword.
00:51:56
Speaker
And yeah Perry Bage says, well, you keep beating up Billy. You keep trying to beat up Clark. I don't know what happened in the press room, but I'll bet you're behind it. to drop it To top it off, your crosswords don't make any sense. I mean, I'm pretty sure – F-H-R-B-L-I-G is in a seven-letter word for flume.
00:52:13
Speaker
And besides, there's only two words here, furblig and pabst.
00:52:19
Speaker
um And then after he gets fired, the tick crushes Clark Oppenheimer's car. And he says, Hi, Clark. Look, I made you an ashtray. And Clark Oppenheimer just goes, don't smoke.
00:52:36
Speaker
It's pretty good. It's very funny. like ah And then the the tick breaks Clark's glasses. And he goes, my disguise! Man, it seems like the tick's kind of an asshole this.
00:52:51
Speaker
In the first couple issues, he's he's a bit of a jerk. yeah I guess the first two issues are like pretty much a story.
00:53:03
Speaker
Because the third issue the third issue is Night of a Million Zillion Ninjas. Arthur must have been a very calming influence on him. Arthur definitely changed him, yeah.
00:53:16
Speaker
ah Oh, and Clark has to hide his identity by putting his making circles out of his fingers and putting them over his eyes. That's also a very good joke. Very good joke.
00:53:30
Speaker
ah Yeah. ah The bit where Clark's just like, I don't smoke. Is really good. ah Yeah, they're fun.
00:53:46
Speaker
Those first couple issues are fun. I think it gets better. ah Like, a lot better. ah In later issues. Like, like ah
00:54:00
Speaker
after he meets Arthur, and the story where he fights... ah what is it, the chainsaw the Chainsaw Bandit or something like that? um That's when I feel like it really like hits its stride.
00:54:15
Speaker
Because it it is true that in those first couple issues it's just the Tick being an asshole.
00:54:23
Speaker
like that That is the joke, is that the Tick is an asshole. And like on purpose. It's not that he's like oblivious to what he's doing. is He's intentionally antagonizing Clark Oppenheimer. Chainsaw Vigilante.
00:54:36
Speaker
He doesn't smoke the tick.
00:54:40
Speaker
No, he does not. The tick? He doesn't smoke.
00:54:46
Speaker
No.
00:54:48
Speaker
that Do you feel confident in your ability to rank this? Yeah. I don't think this is the best tick story, but it's fun.
00:54:59
Speaker
So... Do we have any other tick comics? I don't think we do.
00:55:10
Speaker
No. um Not even any of Benito's. um I think I would rank Benito's tick stories above this. I love Benito's tick stories. Benito's tick stories are some of the best stuff that he's written. I i and you know i was a ah fan before we were friends.
00:55:29
Speaker
you know like i I was too a big fan of that stuff. i I read... Bumbling Bee, my favorite tick character. Yeah. I read Tales from the Bully Pulpit when I was like 19.
00:55:44
Speaker
and Or maybe 20. I was in college. I loved it. ah where where is t I know we have Tales from Bully Pulpit on here. ah
00:55:59
Speaker
It's at 961. i think this tick book could probably go somewhere around 1000.
00:56:09
Speaker
Okay. Like,
00:56:13
Speaker
like it's probably better than Riddler's vs. Clue Master.
00:56:19
Speaker
Justice League... The faintest possible praise. I mean, it's better than an Underworld Unleashed, which we have at $998. A lot of green ink in that book.
00:56:31
Speaker
um You know what it's not better than, though? The last issue of The Walking Dead. Last issue of The Walking Dead is almost an issue of The Tick. It kind of is, yeah. um Batman Inc. 1 through 3 from 2011 is at $9.93.
00:56:49
Speaker
That comic whips. How is it that low? What the hell? Well, that's the new 52 Batman Inc. No, that would have been the... Oh, well, yeah, I guess it was.
00:57:03
Speaker
It's the new 52 one. Yeah, okay.
00:57:09
Speaker
I'm going to put this between read so the Gail Simone Red Sonja and that Vampirella story from Vampirella number 20. So it's the new number 995.
00:57:23
Speaker
All right. The Tick number one and two. Yeah. ah I'll put volume one because there was another Tick one and two. I'm quite sure. but
00:57:34
Speaker
Is this first to know of The Tick? I don't think there's an O to speak of. Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. But there's ah there's it's a first, yeah.
00:57:48
Speaker
i Yeah, there was a 2017 Twix tick quick tick series that had a one and two as well.
00:57:58
Speaker
Was that? No, somebody else was writing it then. That was Cullen Bunn. That was right after Benito.
00:58:06
Speaker
Yeah, okay. Those first two issues are pretty good, but they're not what the tick would become. you know that like i think it gets considerably better. It does seem like the cartoon was pretty faithful to a lot of this, though.
00:58:26
Speaker
To a lot of the later stuff. And and yeah, they did adapt scenes straight out of the book. I remember, yeah, like... reading the comic after watching the cartoon and seeing that diner scene where the guy's like, do you suck blood? And the tick picks up the straw and everything. I have vivid memories of that.
00:58:46
Speaker
Yeah. ah It's a little different in the cartoon because like Arthur's there and stuff, but yeah. ah Finally on Robert's list is Punisher kills the Marvel universe by Garth Ennis.
00:58:58
Speaker
I thought for sure we had that. I think maybe we do. Let me see.
Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe Overview
00:59:05
Speaker
and No, we have Beats Up the Marvel Universe and Marvel Universe The End. Alright.
00:59:09
Speaker
Punisher kills the Marvel Universe. oh
00:59:14
Speaker
we You know what it is? We put it on the raw list. That's right. Because the scene where he kills Doctor Doom. With squelch, squelch, squelch. Clank, clank, clank. Clank, clank, squutch.
00:59:25
Speaker
Yeah. yeah and This book's not great. It's Innocent Doug Braithwaite. Yeah. Two books. Creators that I like an awful lot. was in Was this the first NS Punisher comic? This is the first NS Punisher comic, yes.
00:59:42
Speaker
Yeah, thought so.
00:59:46
Speaker
It's... Like, the clank, clank, clank, squatch is, like, the only time where it feels like it's in on the joke. Like, it's much closer to Thor Vikings than it is to like Welcome back, Frank.
01:00:04
Speaker
I feel yeah um i mean you know like. Doug Braithwaite does like a dandy job on the art. I don't know why i chose to go with dandy as a descriptor. but He does a dandy job.
01:00:21
Speaker
He does a dandy job on it. I'm going to stick with it. like Especially the scene where um the X-Men and Magneto and the Brotherhood are all fighting on the moon. right that is actually That might be the other time where that book is genuinely very funny.
01:00:37
Speaker
This is the start of Garth Ennis through Punisher saying, fuck Wolverine. For sure. Wolverine doesn't die with the other X-Men. Wolverine gets killed on his own.
01:00:53
Speaker
There's a dedicated 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 pages of Wolverine. in a 40-some page book.
01:01:05
Speaker
Yeah. So if you're not familiar with this, the premise is instead of being killed ah in a mob hit gone wrong, the ah Punisher's family, Frank's family, are killed ah in a superhero fight.
01:01:19
Speaker
like They're catching strays. They're collateral damage. Collateral damage, yeah ah And so he goes and kills all the but superheroes. He kills everyone in the Marvel Universe.
01:01:31
Speaker
ah Starting with Spider-Man. Because somebody had to be first. And it's ending with Daredevil. Yeah, ending with Daredevil, who he didn't know was Matt Murdock.
01:01:44
Speaker
Yeah, because Matt Murdock is Frank Castle's lawyer. Right. And so when he sees that it's Matt Murdock at the end, then he shoots himself. Which is, you know...
01:01:55
Speaker
A real bummer ending. Yeah, no, it's a huge bummer, which is weird because it's got two scenes that are genuinely very funny. ah One being where ah Magneto and the Brotherhood and all the X-Men go to the moon and storm... Because because he kills he kills Jubilee and Cyclops the first... like They are at the scene.
01:02:22
Speaker
when his family dies and he just kind of like flips out and shoots Cyclops in the head twice and then, uh, kills Jubilee and tries to shoot everyone else. I think Hawkeye, he gets at that point too.
01:02:35
Speaker
Um, but, uh, Storm's Storm gives this big storm speech about, uh, how this is our final battle.
01:02:47
Speaker
And, you know, the, they knew that the X-Men would have to show up when Magneto sent them this challenge. And Magneto goes, my challenge?
01:02:58
Speaker
You were the one who sent this challenge. and then And they do like a real like, but then who's flying the plane? then Punisher nukes them.
01:03:09
Speaker
They all get blown up with a nuke, yeah. i If I had one main complaint about Garth Ennis comics in general... or but Not even complaint, criticism. Let's say criticism.
01:03:20
Speaker
okay It's that they can be tonally uneven. yeah Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. Because the rest of this book is a bummer.
01:03:31
Speaker
yeah Everything about it. like Sometimes Ennis does a good job of having just a somber tone or just a funny tone.
01:03:43
Speaker
But sometimes if he mixes the two... Boy, that don't work. yeah and And we should say, this is fairly early NS2. Yeah, 95.
01:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, so this is, you know, I mean, it's it's pre-Hitman, which means it's pre-Preacher, it's pre-Punisher, pre-ongoing Punisher run. That happens in 2000.
01:04:09
Speaker
Right. So it's like post-2000 AD, but pre-kind of anything else you've heard of. Yeah, I think this is the the maybe the most egregious example of Ennis having tone problems.
01:04:27
Speaker
There are later Punisher books that would also have that same deal, that same issue. Yeah. Here's two facts that it will not surprise you at all to learn, Matt. ah Number one is that ah this was six years into Garth Ennis' comics writing career.
01:04:47
Speaker
Number two is that he was 25 years old.
01:04:52
Speaker
That tracks. Yeah. Yeah. That tracks. Yeah. Now, if I had written a comic half this good when I was 25...
01:05:02
Speaker
I would be as good as Garth Ennis. I'd be half as good as Garth Ennis, which is mathematically kind of the same as being good as Garth Ennis.
01:05:15
Speaker
You'd have to imagine you would get there eventually. Yeah. yeah I would at least be half as good. I'd have half the brains that you do. Uh-huh.
01:05:31
Speaker
You think you're half the man that I am, but I have half the brains that you do. Normally, when you read a Garth Ennis comic, you got a 50-50 chance of it being a bummer.
01:05:42
Speaker
Right. But his early work is not typical. Is not normal, yeah. You got a 33% at best of that comic being an all-time classic.
01:05:56
Speaker
But you see, if you're reading an issue Hitman from 1996...
01:06:02
Speaker
then it's got a 66 and two thirds percent chance to be one of the best comics you've ever read. And that's just math. You see, Matt, the numbers don't lie.
01:06:16
Speaker
and they spell disaster for this comic, which again, worth reading, I think, but is a bummer. i don't, I actually don't know if I would call it worth reading in 2025. It was definitely worth reading in 2002.
01:06:30
Speaker
it's It's a mixed bag, is what I would call it. yeah um some Some fun stuff in there, but also, ah you know, Ennis not to his best level yet.
01:06:49
Speaker
um So where where does that go on the list, do you think? I mean, again, like, you know,
01:06:56
Speaker
i feel like we're getting a lot of stuff in kind of the the 1200s range. yeah because that's it at twelve At 1222, we have the NS Vertigo Unknown Soldier book.
01:07:12
Speaker
I think this is probably better than that. okay It's certainly more memorable. okay At 1100, we have ah Peanuts Nobody Shook Hands, which is the final Charles Schultz Peanuts strip.
01:07:26
Speaker
A bummer. yeah ah i don't I don't know if it's better than that. At 1150, we have Punisher War Journal Sniper, ah which is a Karl Potts-Jim Lee ah joint, which I think is probably better than this.
01:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, we we we've talked about that one recently. Yeah. 1175, we have Tangled Web the Thousand, the comic that was reprinted one million times. That's better.
01:07:59
Speaker
that's better Yeah, I would say so. At 1200 is Potty Pals, which I think is... I do think it's better. That's an Akewood strip, yeah. That's an Akewood strip.
01:08:11
Speaker
But we think it's better than the Unknown Soldier series. Yeah, which is at 1222. Yes. ah
01:08:21
Speaker
It's not as good as Night Business, and I think it's one of the few comics that I could recommend Night Business over.
01:08:29
Speaker
I don't think it's as good as The Kingdom. i don't think it's as good as ah Brave and the Bold, The Earth is Mine, the Batman Commandee team-up.
01:08:40
Speaker
I do think it's probably better than the first RG-strip. Okay. So this makes this the new 1214. Yeah. yeah Punisher kills the Marvel Universe. Okay. Okay.
01:08:54
Speaker
It's also Doug Braithwaite drawing like Punisher as he looked in 1995, so he's got like green cargo pants on. And it's like, God, if he was in like the Punisher costume, this book goes up ten spots.
01:09:10
Speaker
Well, I mean, Doug Braithwaite, I think, got better as an artist after this, too. I think Doug Braithwaite does a dandy job on art in this, Matt, as established. As established. But, yeah, if it had been...
01:09:23
Speaker
An on-model Punisher from five years later. That would be great. Yeah.
01:09:31
Speaker
Yeah. it's There's a lot about it that's just like could be better. like its it's not quite This is a weird complaint. this is ah This is my like most like sitting at a comic shop being a real nerd about it complaint.
01:09:49
Speaker
It's not as thorough as it could be. You want to see graphically all of the Marvel superheroes get murdered. Yeah. We see the Fantastic Four, but we don't see him die.
01:10:03
Speaker
You know? Yeah. There's a lot of Garth that is only writing the ones that ah but he can think of how Punisher could kill him. Yeah.
01:10:15
Speaker
Yeah. Which, you know. I will say, it's bananas that in 1995 Marvel Comics published this. like I realize Punisher was at the... This was maybe like just after the peak of Punisher popularity.
01:10:32
Speaker
But still, to put out a book like this, where the Punisher kills the X-Men, is wild. This was a thing in 1995. I think it's wild to think about a book like that coming out now.
01:10:49
Speaker
but like i mean i think if it came out like I think if it came out now... it would be done as more of a joke. It would definitely be more of a joke, yes. yeah But like think about comics in 1995. Think about comics like... Matt, all I do is think about comics from 1995. Yeah, but think about how many comics were just like, what if this superhero fought this superhero?
01:11:13
Speaker
And like they just made that and put it out. Yeah, but all those comics, all those comics though, I mean, Matt, you know how all those comics work though, is that everybody gets their heat back.
01:11:25
Speaker
Right, yeah. Like, this one is just straight up the Punisher murdering Wolverine. Like, he shoots Jubilee in the face on, like, page five. this i This really is, like, a trend of the time, though, I feel like. I think it could have only happened in 1995, so I think you're right.
01:11:44
Speaker
But I think it is still weird that it did happen at all in 1995. There were a lot of comics where it was just, like... Hey, what if a superhero what if a bunch of superheroes died?
01:11:55
Speaker
Like Future Imperfect? yeah that You know what? That's true. That's true. This is very much of a piece with Future Imperfect. Yeah.
01:12:04
Speaker
We did get a backup from Robert since we didn't ah rank the One Punch Man story. Captain America number 383. legend. That is the... i am legend that is the um special triple-sized 50th anniversary issue. Uh-huh!
01:12:21
Speaker
That's the issue where he meets Johnny Appleseed and fucking ah Paul Bunyan and John Henry. yeah he does. Yeah, he does. Yeah.
01:12:34
Speaker
What? First of all, wild that Grunewald called that story I Am Legend. Yeah.
01:12:43
Speaker
Yes. yeah Yes. we've We've already talked about how it's wild that he met Johnny Appleseed, who's a real guy. Johnny Appleseed a real guy? And then a bunch of mythic, you know, American mythical figures. Yeah.
01:12:55
Speaker
Paul Bunyan, not, but I don't know how loud I can say that living up here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, but I don't think he was real. Johnny Appleseed was a fully real man.
01:13:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, John Henry, not a real guy. Pecos Bill, not a real guy. ah uncle so And then finally, Uncle Sam. This issue's also got that fucking buck wild story where a U.S. agent yells at a scarecrow.
01:13:25
Speaker
Okay, but that's not the story we're ranking. Just for context. Just for context. It's also got, its buddy, it's also got Doughboy in it.
01:13:38
Speaker
It does, yes. It's got Doughboy and the Red Skull and fucking Crossbones.
01:13:46
Speaker
It's got the origin of Crossbones in it where Red Skull says from now on you're going to be known as Crossbones and Crossbones goes, I get it,
01:14:00
Speaker
God, what a great run of comics. oh yeah I do have to say, though, that the
01:14:11
Speaker
that the I Am Legend story is like... It ain't a high point of of the run. Well, okay. It's it's not.
01:14:25
Speaker
However...
01:14:29
Speaker
I mean, it's not unenjoyable. It's enjoyable enough. It does have the like extraordinarily cheesy ending where... Okay, so after Cap meets ah Uncle Sam, and Uncle Sam is like, hey, what if you quit?
01:14:51
Speaker
And Captain America has to be like, it's not my time. And then Father Time, who has sent him on this journey, shows back up. And, like, they fight for a while, and he makes Captain America old.
01:15:04
Speaker
Like, Captain America gets old for a minute. It's like he went to that beach. It's like he went to that beach. And then... um ah They like fight off the side of a cliff, and then they're back in the street, and Father Time goes like running off.
01:15:22
Speaker
He throws a shield at him and trips him. And then it just it just turns out to be Hawkeye. Yeah, it just just because they were distracting him because it's Captain America's birthday.
01:15:35
Speaker
So they could give him a ah birthday cake. Yeah. That's bonkers. And that that nasty jerk, John Jameson, is there.
01:15:48
Speaker
oh yeah. and don't Don't forget that in this run, John Jameson was nasty. he was a nasty He was a nasty boy. He's a nasty boy. He's a real Brian Knobs.
01:16:00
Speaker
I will say, though, if you've never read an issue of Captain America before...
01:16:07
Speaker
Or if you've never read a Mark Grunewald issue of Captain America, and you're going through a dollar bin at a con, and you pull out this special triple-sized 50th anniversary issue with the gold cover by Ron Lim and Jim Lee, the Lim and Jim connection.
01:16:22
Speaker
Lim and Jim.
01:16:25
Speaker
you'd be getting You'd be getting your money's worth from just that main story before you even got to fucking the origin of Crossbones. The thought balloon or thought bubble that Captain America has at the end is so funny.
01:16:41
Speaker
Hawkeye says he picked up the costume at a rental store, so the jury's still out on whether there's really a father time and whether I really took a trip into America's mythic past. Perhaps I'll have to wait to discover the truth of the matter until it really is time for me to lay down my shield.
01:16:53
Speaker
And go wherever it is, old heroes go. Which I guess is some foreshadowing of the end of the run. Yeah, man. Yeah. Groomwald's good.
01:17:06
Speaker
i don't know. I don't know what we how we came down on this when we were reading it as part of the run. what I like it. I don't think we thought it was ah one of the high points. i'll say that I'll tell you, looking back on it, I like it.
01:17:23
Speaker
So we rated the backup story where John Walker yells at a scarecrow at number 1019. that's That feels too low, but also exactly right. yeah So is this better or worse than that?
01:17:44
Speaker
Here's the thing. i do think it's better, but I'm looking right here and I don't know if it's as good as Sluggo's flat gun from Nancy. Yeah, I kind of think it's exactly the same amount of good.
01:17:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's just above.
01:18:02
Speaker
Hey, man. Captain America number 383 might be the ever printed. and nineteen the best comic ever printed I feel like we could just put this whole issue in that spot. I would probably bump up that crossbone story a little bit.
01:18:20
Speaker
The crossbone story maybe makes it slightly better, yeah. like The crossbone story we would maybe put a little bit higher. But, okay, so you're saying right above the John Walker story. Like, immediately above. Yes.
01:18:33
Speaker
Alright. I am legend. I mean, if you want, we can go ahead and put the crossbone story at number 1000. i It was not submitted, so we're not going to deal okay but ah something that. Mark it down. It goes at number 1,000. Yeah, somebody submit it now, and then we'll talk about it in two years and hopefully remember that we said we were going to do that.
01:18:57
Speaker
Just include it in the note. Say you said you would rank this at number 1,000, which at the time may be a whole lot higher than it would be right now. Yeah, true.
01:19:08
Speaker
Chris, our next list comes to us from Jolene. The first story on Jolene's list is Grendel, War Child.
01:19:20
Speaker
Which has a Robocop samurai with a lightsaber fighting a demon gorilla while doing a lone wolf and cub. I feel like we've talked about this on the show before, Matt. I've never read any Grendel. Yeah, I...
01:19:31
Speaker
this This has to be on a potential catch-up list. Well, people keep telling us to read Grendel in general. What would be really helpful would be what Grendel book or story to read first.
01:19:49
Speaker
I feel like they're all like kind of standalone, but I don't know that for sure. so I would love for someone to tell us specifically... What is a manageable piece of Grendel to read?
01:20:03
Speaker
And we will do it up for a catch-up and by the end of the year. Do not tell us to just read all of Grendel, because I feel like that's what people continually say. Yeah, look.
01:20:17
Speaker
I get it, because I bet it's good. Yeah. But that is that's that's too much. That's too much while we do this show. Yeah. You've got to give us something ah that's manageable. let Twelve issues or so for one catch-up, and then and then we can do that.
01:20:38
Speaker
So ah let us know. Let us know the Grendel to read, and and well we'll try to make that happen. ah Next up is Jolene once again submitting a Catwoman issue to us. It's Catwoman57, Reap What You Sow.
01:20:54
Speaker
That's a cataclysm tie-in in which Selina fights a tree. Now that sounds good. Fighting a tree? That sounds good, and that also sounds manageable.
01:21:06
Speaker
Yes, yes. To your boy. Selina Fights a Tree. That sounds like a good comic. I mean, I bet it's probably not, because it's definitely by Chuck Dixon and Jim Ballin.
01:21:19
Speaker
so That sounds like a mid-comic. yeah It sounds like it has two staples and 22 pages. Sure does. Sure does.
01:21:32
Speaker
Third on Jolene's list is Street Fighter X G.I. Joe. Street Fighter X G.I. Joe by Aubrey Sidderson. I have not actually read that. Nor have I. Sounds like I would like it.
01:21:46
Speaker
ah
01:21:49
Speaker
i'm i' Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's i'm sure it's fun. i I liked i eat Aubrey's ah G.I. Joe stuff. It's very much up your alley, Chris. Two things you like a lot put together.
01:22:05
Speaker
But but i I sure haven't read it. I'm sorry to say. um Jolene did provide two backups. One is Catwoman Relentless by Ed Brubaker.
01:22:19
Speaker
ah We've raked that, I think.
01:22:25
Speaker
right Is Relentless the Black Mask story, right? Yeah. We have. yeah we have It's at number 409. um Jolene made sure to say that the she doesn't like the story, though. In the submission. I don't know what we're supposed to supposed to do with that, Jolene.
01:22:50
Speaker
I like it. I mean, look, it ranked at number 409 on the list. But Jolene is a, as as longtime listeners have no doubt put together, Jolene is a a Catwoman connoisseur.
01:23:04
Speaker
A fan of the ballot Catwoman. up From what I've gleaned, not so much a fan of thee the Brubaker-Darwin Cook look at all.
01:23:14
Speaker
We all know Ed Brubaker is no Chuck Dixon.
01:23:20
Speaker
that's And that's a true statement. Well, ah I don't think Jolene's problem is so much a quality problem as it is a story content problem, um because Jolene describes it as where Black Mask does a torture porn on Maggie Kyle and her husband makes her be a cannibal.
01:23:37
Speaker
Yes. I mean, that's not inaccurate. that That is, in fact, quite an accurate description of what happened in that story. I think that story, like, if Black Mask is going to be going around torturing people with power drills, ah at least the story could be well written.
01:23:56
Speaker
Fair enough. it does That is the height of Black Mask being a real nasty freak.
01:24:04
Speaker
ah Finally, Jolene has sent to us the 2023 Hot Girl miniseries written by Jadzia Axelrod. ah which has art by Aman K. Nahuelpan.
01:24:19
Speaker
I know I'm probably butchering that name, so apologies. um But this is the 2023 Hawkgirl miniseries that um tries to make Hawkgirl a good character and actually does a pretty good job of it. I've recently read this.
01:24:35
Speaker
I have not read it, so do you want to rank it? I will rank it, yes. um now not like Hawkgirl, better character than Hawkman. For sure. yes Yes. This is the Kendra Saunders hot girl.
01:24:49
Speaker
um but but Big Jeff Johns' hot girl. That's right. the the The hot girl from JSA, who has a difficult origin, let's say.
01:25:02
Speaker
ah Although, i think Kendra's origin was revised with the New 52 version. So that she didn't actually commit suicide.
01:25:13
Speaker
um Did you know that that was part of Kendra Saunders' origin from 1999 in JSA? No. That she committed suicide? and thus Yes! I vaguely remember that. like that was like Because that was presented as kind of like a big reveal.
Hawkgirl's Transformation and Story Arc
01:25:30
Speaker
Right. It's not something you know from the start. It's it's it's revealed later that she successfully committed suicide, and thus ah her the spirit of the original um ah Golden Age Hawkgirl, I think, um like enters her body and and but starts to live in her body.
01:25:56
Speaker
And that's how she becomes Hawkgirl. It's I'm not saying this is a problem with you, Matt. It's just that one does not generally hear the word successful in that context.
01:26:12
Speaker
I...
01:26:16
Speaker
as opposed to failed, is what I mean. Yeah, yeah. No, I get it. yeah I get it. yeah ah But anyway, this miniseries does a pretty good job of making...
01:26:29
Speaker
That part of Hawkgirl's story, not the suicide part, but the the part of like she's constantly surrounded by like ghosts of former Hawkgirls.
01:26:41
Speaker
um It makes it like a part of her where she's like got to deal with these ghosts that she sees all the time. And it's kind of played for laughs, and it's like good. like It makes her a more entertaining character. She just wants to be left alone by these ghosts of Hawkgirls and Hawkgwomen.
01:26:59
Speaker
And they won't leave her alone. um that That's fun. I like that idea. um it i think it definitely makes Hawkgirl more...
01:27:13
Speaker
i don't know, less abstract. I suppose. ah there's There's a lot of... In that miniseries of like trying to make Hawkgirl fun.
01:27:26
Speaker
That I admire a lot. um A big part of that is that she gets a girlfriend named Galaxy. Okay. Who's from the Galaxy, the Prettiest Star series from the year before.
01:27:42
Speaker
Who I think is another Jadzia Axelrod character. um But yeah, like it's ah there's a very cute like romance between her and Galaxy that is in that miniseries.
01:27:56
Speaker
And ah it's... i would I would largely call the book very cute. And I do have to admire how much the art um is very invested in giving Kendra Saunders like guns.
01:28:13
Speaker
I mean, like like big, muscly arms. I do. i do That does sound good. She's taking everybody to the gun show in that book.
01:28:25
Speaker
um But also, like... A lot of it is just she is having fun. It's not an unserious story, but um it is, as I said, an attempt to make Hawkgirl fun.
01:28:43
Speaker
ah And it it attempts to give Hawkgirl an arch nemesis from the Nth World, whose name is Vulpecula. Okay, now hang on. Tell me about the Nth World.
01:28:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Nth World. ah That's that's the the world that Nth Metal comes from. Uh-huh. And it's where Vulpecula is from. Okay. and It's in the Dark Multiverse.
01:29:09
Speaker
yeah I mean, yeah, Matt, I figured, because it's the Nth World where the Nth Metal comes from. Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not mad. I'm not dumb. ah So Vulpecula is from the Dark Multiverse, and she – she is sort of kind of made into, as I said, kind of made into Hawkgirl's ah nemesis. she's she's She's inserted into like her childhood. like like She's present and there for much of Hawkgirl's childhood.
01:29:40
Speaker
ah it's ah It's a largely fun, largely good, and well done miniseries. ah It is a valiant effort to fix Hawkgirl.
01:29:53
Speaker
Is it entirely successful? No. But I think it tries to make some of the biggest weaknesses of Hawkgirl as a character into strengths, which is smart.
01:30:05
Speaker
ah So yeah, it i it's a fun miniseries. Let me see where I think it goes on the list. My first blush thought is that it maybe goes somewhere in the seven hundred
01:30:22
Speaker
There's some good comics there.
01:30:25
Speaker
Like Batman Year 100 is at 701.
01:30:31
Speaker
Let's see.
01:30:36
Speaker
Flex Mentalo's Origin from Doom Patrol is at 765. I think this is probably below that. My Uncle My Enemy me is at 783. Black 2016 is at 787. 787. black widow twenty sixteen is at seven eighty seven I think this is similarly fun, but probably not as good.
01:31:00
Speaker
But I think I might put it right below it, because Wintertime Wager from Walt Disney's Comics and Stories is at 788, and I think this is this is better than that. Okay, alright. I'm going to put this at the new number 788.
01:31:13
Speaker
I mean, that's definitely a a very readable section of the list. Yeah, it's a very readable miniseries, I would say. Right, so what's what's the name of this? It's just Hot Girl 2023.
01:31:26
Speaker
it's It's Hot Girl numbers one through six. um It's only the second ever Hot Girl ah solo series. ah And the first one is definitely better than the first one, which was by Howard Chaykin.
01:31:41
Speaker
Oh, yeah. yeah that' all in And that's like ah that's like a Howard right? It's like
01:31:51
Speaker
roughly its I mean, look, it's written by Walt Simonson. I know. Howard Chicken Art. I know. so what's Walt Simonson, you know, the GOAT, did a lot of stuff in that era, like the World of Warcraft comic, that I that i read, and that's all I got to say about that.
01:32:13
Speaker
That's all I got to say about that. And that's all I got to say about that. Uh, okay. Okay.
Rhino Comics and Gary Friedrich's Work
01:32:21
Speaker
Our next list is from Ryan Bielik, which has two lists to choose from involving some of his favorite villains.
01:32:29
Speaker
Okay. So, Chris, do you want the shocker list, or do you want the rhino list? I gotta take the rhino list on that one, because, you know, he made that weird noise. Can you make that noise? Something like that. it was something like that.
01:32:51
Speaker
I don't know if that's accurate, but I do feel like it is. It's emotionally true. It's emotionally true, yeah. It's emotionally true. Alright, here's the Rhino list.
01:33:03
Speaker
First is Ring Around the Rhino from Incredible Hulk Volume 1, Number 104 by Gary Friedrich and Marie Severin. Man, Gary Friedrich, that's ah that's a dude.
01:33:16
Speaker
That's a dude who was just straight up in there. The creator of Ghost Rider? That's him. The dude who got his like Lifetime Achievement Award, i like Eisner Award, he went to the Eisner Hall of Fame, and his whole speech, because I was there for it, his whole speech was, I created Ghost Rider, and Marvel owes me money.
01:33:37
Speaker
Yeah, the guy who was like, i created a Ghost Rider, so I own Ghost Rider. Which, you have to, honestly, i feel like you've got to big that up. No, i Matt, i'm I'm here for it.
01:33:51
Speaker
yeah I'm here for it. I've read a lot of Gary Friedrich comics in my time. um Have you read Incredible Hulk number 104? No, I have not. Nor have i No, I have not.
01:34:02
Speaker
ah It's Hulk versus Rhino, so it's probably fine. Yeah, it's it's probably a solid bronze. like It's a Bronze Age 8. eight it's It's as Bronze Age-y as you could imagine. yeah It's got some good-ass Maurice Everett art in it, I'll tell you that.
01:34:19
Speaker
I mean, that's unsurprising. Yeah. Like, it's a good-looking book. it's It's a Bronze Age comic that looks a little bit like a Silver Age comic. But I don't mind that.
01:34:32
Speaker
Hey, I don't mind it. lot of that Silver Age art was good. um it's you know it's it's a I'm looking through it right now. It's a fight comic.
01:34:43
Speaker
Hulk fights Rhino. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's what you want out of the Hulk and Rhino comic, right? like you don't want You don't want flowers for Rhino in that book. yeah You want Rhino and Hulk to punch each other bunch.
01:34:57
Speaker
I'll say this. Hulk punches Rhino so hard that his like indestructible suit gets ripped to pieces in place, and like on the arms. It's all ripped up by the end of their fight.
01:35:09
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How do you get that back? it Great question.
01:35:20
Speaker
Oh, and
01:35:25
Speaker
let's see. Hulk is trying to get Rhino to say something. He's saying, um no one say it before you die. Tell me the words you never thought you'd say. No one can defeat the Hulk. And then Rhino's like, I'll never say it.
01:35:38
Speaker
And Hulk's like, fucking say it. And then he just goes, well, sorry, whoops, the rhino's dead. Jesus!
01:35:48
Speaker
That's pretty fucked. Hey, Bruce! Bruce, calm your ass down a little bit, dog. I mean, clearly the rhino was not dead. But he sure thought that he beat the rhino to death.
01:36:03
Speaker
That's bonkers, dude. That's bonkers. That's Gary Friedrich, man.
01:36:10
Speaker
he does That dude don't fuck around. That was a weird thing, is that nobody ever really like talked about Gary Friedrich, but he did write some of the most bonkers comics of the Bronze Age. Like, fully bananas.
01:36:23
Speaker
Yeah.
01:36:26
Speaker
Fully bananas. Alright, here's the next Rhino comic. Flowers for Rhino. Spider-Man's Tangle Web, number 5-6. By Peter Milligan and Duncan Fugredo.
01:36:40
Speaker
ah Listen, I'll be honest. It's a fun two-issue story. I mean, Matt, I'll be honest with you.
01:36:53
Speaker
um don't love it when comics try and make me feel bad for guys like the Rhino.
01:37:00
Speaker
Because, like, he's a fucking Rhino, dude. But he's such a big doofus. Yeah, but like you don't need to make a comic that's all about how him how he's a big doofus.
01:37:11
Speaker
You can just make a comic about the rhino, and I'll know. Because I've read it. Look, okay. The whole gimmick of Spider-Man's Tangled Web is that it's like the Spider-Man stories you've never seen before, you know? It's Legends of the Dark Knight, but for Spider-Man.
01:37:30
Speaker
Yeah. And like you know it's like, let's do different takes on these kinds of characters. And so we've seen the Rhino fight a bunch. We've seen him ah stomp around and and ah fight Spider-Man in the street a whole bunch of times.
01:37:51
Speaker
So why not do a story where the Rhino becomes so smart that he ah deduces that the after afterlife doesn't exist? That happens in that story. Man, he should probably go talk to Johnny Storm and Doctor Strange about that.
01:38:04
Speaker
he probably should, because Doctor Strange has actually been to hell, and he knows what it's like. It's kind of whack if you try if if you're in the Marvel Universe, and you're like, the afterlife doesn't exist, because what you need to be like is, is hey, 26 afterlives exist. Yeah.
01:38:22
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. There's two different places called Hell, one that has two L's and one that has one. One that has one L. And then within Hell, but then within 2L Hell, there's a lot of stuff. There's like all kinds of stuff. Then there's Limbo.
01:38:39
Speaker
And then there's and then there's like Tartarus. Uh-huh, yeah. And then there's there's that casino from Incredible Hercules.
01:38:50
Speaker
Where people are trying are gambling to get their resurrections. Right. and then And then there's the good there's the good heaven, which we we don't really see, but we do see Valhalla.
01:39:03
Speaker
Surely we see heaven at some point. But then again, I guess heaven and hell are probably just the same place. Well, we've seen heaven in DC comics. I know that for sure. Yeah. I remember seeing Jason Todd in heaven one time, and then that was a lie.
01:39:20
Speaker
that was Because he was back the whole time.
01:39:25
Speaker
yeah Heaven is in Day of Judgment, for sure. cause ah Because the j ah the JSA is there. And they like greet ah fucking um James Corrigan, the Spectre, into heaven.
01:39:41
Speaker
i i I don't know why I know that that happens, but it does. Which is weird, because he was both a cop and a crooked cop, which are two things don't get you sent to hell. But I guess he spent enough time as the Spectre that it it it got reversed for him. Which is basically ah being a god cop.
01:40:01
Speaker
In a manner of speaking, yeah. But um I think Flowers for Rhino is is a fun story. i It's fine.
01:40:12
Speaker
I mean, like... Look, it's ah it's a book it's a it's a book where Rhino does some stuff he doesn't normally do.
01:40:24
Speaker
He gets smart for a little while. He takes over a crime syndicate. He um becomes so smart that he like mathematically deduces all the things you can possibly deduce.
01:40:36
Speaker
And then, after a while, he decides he just wants to be dumb again. And he specifically wants to be even more dumb than he used to be. Yeah. Which is pretty funny.
Humor in Rhino's Identity
01:40:47
Speaker
like The very first thing that it says in the book is, I'm Rhino, I knock things down, that's what I do, that's who I am. And then the very last thing in the book is, I'm Rhino, I knock things down, that's what I do, that's who I am. But you have to imagine that the second time it's like, I'm Rhino, duh.
01:41:08
Speaker
I knock things down. That's what I do, that's who I am. ah It also has a scene where he's like outside of a house shouting Stella, like he's a dude from Streetcar Named Desire.
01:41:26
Speaker
This comic is very of its time. Yeah. And is, in fact, maybe... What was interesting about Spider-Man's Tangle Web is that it was Marvel kind of catching up to in a where...
01:41:41
Speaker
in ah in a way where Like, Spider-Man's Sega Web was kind of the Vertigo Spider-Man comic. Sort of. I mean, ah a bunch of Vertigo writers did stories. Yeah, I mean, appreciate Peter Milligan.
01:41:55
Speaker
Yeah. For sure. ah don't know, man. I feel like it it sure is of its time.
Early 2000s Comics: Hit or Miss
01:42:06
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah ah of of various stories of the early two thousand s
01:42:14
Speaker
I find this one more fun and enjoyable than gross, which i would say that you could... Any comic you picked up in 2003 was... You had a 50-50 shot.
01:42:30
Speaker
See, normally, when you pick up a comic from 2003, you got a 50-50 chance of it being very bad. or Or fun, or an enjoyable read. Yeah. yeah But with Peter Milligan...
01:42:45
Speaker
i With Peter Milligan, I would say it's more of a 66 and two-thirds percent chance. Of being good? Of being bad. Yeah, I like Peter Milligan, yeah.
01:42:55
Speaker
we used i mean, i I've talked about this before, but we when I was working at the comic book we had a very mean joke about Peter Milligan, which is that you weren't sure if you were getting a comic. I feel like I've told this recently on the show before.
01:43:06
Speaker
You weren't sure if you were getting a comic by Peter Milligan or Paycheck Pete? I mean, that is true. A lot of his Marvel work was ah was turned in by old Paycheck Pete, and I do not begrudge him that.
01:43:17
Speaker
No, I mean, you gotta do what you gotta to do.
01:43:22
Speaker
What was the... um That was not Peter Milligan. There was like a Ah, fuck. Around that time, there was like a Spider-Man parody comic.
01:43:34
Speaker
Oh, that's gonna drive me nuts. I have to go look that up in here here in a second. ah It was like from... It had to be like 2004, 2003. I'm going i'm going to lose my mind if I can't think of what that was.
01:43:52
Speaker
But anyway, for some reason I thought Peter Milligan wrote that, but I don't think that's true. What was it? I can't think of what the name of it was. What was it about? I can picture the cover in my head.
01:44:04
Speaker
it was like you know it was like a Vertigo-style parody of Spider-Man. And... It had this indie artist on it.
01:44:16
Speaker
Ugh. Oh, I think I know what you're talking about.
01:44:21
Speaker
I'm sure i can picture I have the cover pictured in my head right this second. but i Was it the Peter Spider-Man comic? Peter Bagg. It was Peter Bagg. It was not Peter Milligan. It was Peter Bagg.
01:44:36
Speaker
Yes. Yes. It was the Peter Bagg Spider-Man comic. Whatever that was called. Where do you want to put... Talk about Peter Bagg of the comic Hate. Peter Bagg's Hate. That's right.
01:44:50
Speaker
Indie comics, baby.
01:44:54
Speaker
i like them because they're smart and subtle. oh Where do you to Flowers for Rhino?
01:45:01
Speaker
um I think it's pretty good. i like The megalomaniacal Spider-Man is what it was called. Thank you... ah finally I finally saw what it was. Okay.
01:45:14
Speaker
um I don't know. ah Maybe in the eight hundred somewhere. I was looking at literally number 1000. Okay, what's 1000? This is not better than the Calvin and Hobster about nailing the table.
01:45:29
Speaker
Oh, that's probably true. Yeah. And I don't think it's better than... i don't know if it's better than... wait. What I have at number... Yeah, 1,000 on my list is Underworld Unleashed.
01:45:44
Speaker
yeah It's probably about as good as Underworld Unleashed, honestly. i mean, I think it's probably better than the Giant Turtle Man.
01:45:57
Speaker
That's at 1,005. Yeah, um' I'm saying it's as good as Underworld Unleashed. Okay. just Just so the the the Discord doesn't get mad, I won't put it above Harry Osborn dying, which we have at number 999.
01:46:13
Speaker
lot of old heads. A lot of old heads for Discord. Underworld Unleashed wild event. Underworld Unleashed was great because it's not what you would expect from Mark Waid to be like, all of these dumb old supervillains need an update.
01:46:31
Speaker
They need an update, and they need it to come from demons. And they need it to come from demons. And also, Blue Devil is going to sell his soul. And then die. Okay, ah bunch of these old a bunch of these old villains need an update. Except Lex Luthor, who um was a young clone of himself with hair and a beard.
01:46:53
Speaker
But that clone died because of accelerated clone aging. So now Lex Luthor's going to make a deal with the demon so he could just be old Lex Luthor again.
01:47:07
Speaker
yeah Old, bald Lex Luthor. But he's not going to be like old, bald Lex Luthor. Because the previous bald Lex Luthor was like not was like not fit.
01:47:21
Speaker
Yeah, he was chubby businessman Lex Luthor. Mid-90s Lex Luthor being like one of those weird fit businessmen. yeah who's like, i eat 1,400 calories a day, exactly, every day.
01:47:38
Speaker
Like, that that was a good move. That was like Bezos before Bezos. Yeah, he's I mean, look, i was I was trying not to say it, because I do think it would is mean, but also, that guy's a billionaire, and it's okay to be mean to billionaires, and it's actually a moral imperative.
01:47:55
Speaker
So, yeah, he was exactly Jeff Bezos. you You would not expect Jeff Bezos to listen to this show? what Look, I don't know. I don't know what he does in his spare time.
01:48:08
Speaker
you But you would definitely not expect him to look and act exactly like Lex Luthor. And yet... Here's what I'll say about ah ah Jeff Bezos in his spare time. If he does listen to this show, and he's not on the fucking Patreon...
01:48:26
Speaker
great Or he's ah if he's on the Patreon at like the $1 level, like look, it's fine if you're on the Patreon at the $1 level, but I'm talking about Jeff Bezos, who has a billion dollars. Who has more than a billion dollars, several billion dollars. Yeah, get it the fuck together, Jeff.
01:48:43
Speaker
Yeah. You, listener, if you're at the $1 level, that's great. Thank you. that's you know Those small donations are often the most consistent. and And really help us do what we want to do here on the show.
01:48:59
Speaker
so Jeff Bezos? Come on, man. Get it the fuck together. Above or below Underworld Unleashed?
01:49:10
Speaker
I'm going to say... don't know. I'm going to say above. I'm not a hater on this story. I just think it's it's fine. Below Harry Osborn dies.
01:49:22
Speaker
So, the new number 1000 is Flowers for Rhino, which is Tangled Web numbers 5 through 6. I
01:49:36
Speaker
like Peter Milligan. I like Peter Milligan. I think Peter Milligan has written quite a few very good comics. Yeah, like Duncan Fogredo, too. Yeah.
01:49:48
Speaker
The art in Flowers for Rhino is really good. Like, it's it's beautiful art.
01:49:57
Speaker
And, like, a lot of it, ah look, a lot of the Marvel work was Paycheck Pete, but, like, don't forget, you know, but, like, ecstatics was a a huge thing. Oh, yeah, no, that was Peter Milligan.
01:50:16
Speaker
That was Peter Milligan, yeah. Baby, that was Peter Milligan. Don't get that twisted. Peter Milligan and Mike Allred doing the thing.
01:50:28
Speaker
All right. Finally, Rage of the Rhino from Amazing Spider-Man number 617, part of The Gauntlet by Joe Kelly and Max Fiumara.
01:50:39
Speaker
The rhino has retired and is trying to make a new life for himself, but is attacked by another rhino. Here's my question about that. Is The Gauntlet one story?
The Gauntlet: Spider-Man's Challenge
01:50:54
Speaker
Or are we cool with breaking down the various pieces of the gauntlet into different stories? Matt, what's the gauntlet?
01:51:05
Speaker
The gauntlet was the story... um it was the Brand New Day story. i think it was like right after they dropped the Brand New Day branding on the issues.
01:51:18
Speaker
um But the concept of the gauntlet was that... like
01:51:25
Speaker
I was going to say Spider-Man fights a new villain every issue, which is like, that's just Spider-Man comics. Yeah, man, that's that was Spider-Man comics for like 200 issues. But I think it was something to the effect of ah Kraven was sending all these villains after Spider-Man to like wear him down.
01:51:52
Speaker
Talking about the hunter? Kraven the Hunter, yes. ah He's a myth, Matt.
01:51:59
Speaker
He has one weakness. No, he has no weaknesses. ah No known weaknesses. Not even fire or sonics. Yes, okay, yes. I knew it had something to do with Kraven, but it was not just Kraven. It was all of the Cravens.
01:52:17
Speaker
So it was Anna, Sasha, And all the other living Kravins, plus Chameleon, sending all these villains after Spider-Man to try to wear him down for, I believe, what was eventually the Grim Hunt.
01:52:37
Speaker
Okay. if i If I remember right. Then I think that's probably a single story. Because if a story's called The Gauntlet, then yeah, it's going to have like a series of villains. like ah like Amazing Spider-Man Annual No. 1 is a single story.
01:52:51
Speaker
Yeah. ah
01:52:55
Speaker
I think that's right. I think the gauntlet is probably one continuous story, even though like, a I don't know, maybe not. Because the different issues are by different writers, and they are kind of distinct arcs, like like many arcs within the larger one. Yeah.
01:53:20
Speaker
That said, there are two Rhino issues non-consecutive about the same thing. Because there's Amazing Spider-Man 617 and there's Amazing Spider-Man 625, which are both about the Rhino.
01:53:40
Speaker
And I think they're both written by Joe Kelly. So... Well, I don't recall this at all. I feel like I probably read it at the time, but I do not recall it.
01:53:54
Speaker
So I would say if you want us to re to rank the gauntlet, I'm going to have to do some catching up.
01:54:04
Speaker
Hmm.
01:54:06
Speaker
I think I'm going to say the gauntlet is one big story.
01:54:13
Speaker
I think that makes the most sense. Even though it's like little mini arcs within the larger arc, um you know we've ranked a events written by with parts written by different writers and with different creative teams as one big story. like the the
01:54:36
Speaker
The Hole is one big story. The Hole? W-H-O-L-E. w h o eie Oh, I thought you were talking about a story called The Hole. No, I was talking about the the whole of the various... know, Magneto and the Red Skull.
01:54:55
Speaker
If nothing else, there is a second part of this Rhino story by the same creative team that happens eight issues later. There's issue 617 and there's issue 625, and they're the same... They're two parts of the same Rhino story.
01:55:12
Speaker
Mm-hmm. That, I think, does indicate that the gauntlet is intended as one big story.
01:55:24
Speaker
So, that's where I'm going to come down on this. Okay. The gauntlet, I think, runs from Amazing Spider-Man 612 through Amazing Spider-Man 625.
01:55:40
Speaker
Funny enough, it is not immediately followed by the Grim Hunt series.
01:55:46
Speaker
Which I thought it was.
01:55:49
Speaker
When does the Grim Hunt happen?
01:55:53
Speaker
Oh, okay. Grim Hunt is the immediate immediate follow-up to it. But it comes later. How confusing.
01:56:01
Speaker
Ugh.
01:56:04
Speaker
I like this era of Amazing Spider-Man, but like stories are not... like ah
01:56:15
Speaker
organized in a way that makes sense. Also, Shed is part of this. Wait, Shed was part of the Gauntlet? Because we did rank Shed all its own. It wasn't part of the Gauntlet, but it was in with other Gauntlet stuff. It was between the Gauntlet and Grim Hunt.
01:56:31
Speaker
a Okay.
01:56:35
Speaker
Because we did rank Shed all on its own. Yeah, we did rank Shed all ah on its own, but it is also three parts one right after the other. And it is not labeled as part of the gauntlet.
01:56:47
Speaker
So, um confusing. Confusing. that The gauntlet ends at number 625. The grim hunt starts with number 634.
01:57:01
Speaker
I don't know, man. This was also when Amazing Spider-Man was coming out weekly. so Yeah, there was a lot of Amazing Spider-Man. but They just had a ah lot of comics to put out. yeah i remember I remember most of that being pretty good.
01:57:17
Speaker
It was almost all good. yeah But when I went back and and and re-read it, I only read the Dan Slott stuff. like I read the post-Brain Trust era stuff.
01:57:32
Speaker
I do think that some of the writers in the Brain Trust are better than others. I won't say who ah But I particularly like... Were you thinking maybe of the them being better than the one who wrote this story that we're talking about right now?
01:57:52
Speaker
I won't say, but I do like, in particular, the Mark Waid and Zeb Wells parts of the brain trust era. Yes. That's all.
01:58:03
Speaker
Brutal, Matt Wilson. Yeah.
01:58:10
Speaker
Mean guy. Matt was mean to creators. That's that's my ref reputation now, I guess. It's true. It's true. i always hear them talking about it. they're like They're like, hey, we're afraid that Matt's going to talk about our comics.
01:58:24
Speaker
but Don't let Tom Lyle hear what's going on. boy do not let Tom Lyle hear about this.
01:58:35
Speaker
The viciousness. I mean, Tom Lyle... sadly passed away in 2019, but we're right about the time you were reviewing some his comics, huh? We're going to, uh, redeem it by catching up on Robin one, the the first Robin mini series on the next catch up.
01:58:55
Speaker
So, uh, I'll have nice things to about say, to say about Tom Lyle's art then. right. Uh, any way, I think we got to wrap up here.
01:59:09
Speaker
Uh, Thank you for that list, Ryan. we We couldn't rank two of those rhino stories. One, because I think it's part of a larger story. And one that we just had never read before, the whole thing.
01:59:22
Speaker
um So, ah sorry about that. But, if you want to support us and support this show, we talked about the Patreon
Patreon Promotion and Benefits
01:59:32
Speaker
a minute ago. You can go to patreon.com slash warrocketajax to kick in as little as $1 per month to make sure that we do this show.
01:59:40
Speaker
ah monthly, the Every Story Ever specials monthly, the weekly War Rocket Ajax show, the ah monthly Comics Catch-Up specials, plus Movie Fighters and Snack Situation. All of those shows are made possible by your support on Patreon.
01:59:56
Speaker
As a $1 Patreon supporter, you get every single one of those shows i just listed off completely ad-free in your own special Patreon feed. And then at other levels, you can get bonus audio, line-stepping privileges,
02:00:08
Speaker
The only list you heard on this special were line stepper lists, and they were from almost two years ago.
02:00:17
Speaker
There's zero chance your list is ever getting read on the show if you're not a line stepper, is my point.
02:00:25
Speaker
We're working through them, but like I'm on number many line stepper lists that of many of linestep or lists And this one the one I just read is from September 2023, if that tells you anything.
02:00:44
Speaker
At the $15 level, you get to name a location and address on Gimmick Street. At the $20 level, you get a t-shirt. I'm going to order our new 2025 t-shirts within the week, I think.
02:01:01
Speaker
ah So if you get it on the t-shirt level, you can get one of those t-shirts. If you want to contact us here on the show, warrocketpodcast.gmail.com is our email address.
02:01:12
Speaker
That's where you can let us know if you want to sponsor the show and send your Every Story Ever lists and all of that.
02:01:18
Speaker
warrocketpodcast.tumblr.com is our Tumblr where you can ask questions and also just drop us a line. We're on Blue Sky. warrocketajax.com is our Blue Sky handle.
02:01:32
Speaker
And we have a Discord. If you will ask us nicely for an invitation to the Discord, we will provide you with one and you can join over there and be part of that cool, fun community of War Rocket Ajax fans.
02:01:46
Speaker
War Rocket Wiki is the fan-run repository of all the information you could want to need about this show, War Rocket Ajax. It has the Every Story Ever list on it, constantly updated and kept up by our fans, who we thank greatly for keeping that going.
02:02:02
Speaker
WarRocketAjax.com is our website that has every episode of the we've ever done. If you want to find me and my stuff, go to MattDWilson.net to find links to my comics, my books, my other podcasts, and my social medias. Chris, where can people find you?
02:02:12
Speaker
Hey, everybody can find me by going to The-ISB.com. That is my website. It has links to all the stuff that I do.
02:02:25
Speaker
That does it. be back in July with another special. That's right, Matt. Until then, everybody, uh, Keep on reading them comics. Please, please keep on reading them comics.
02:02:37
Speaker
Please keep on reading them comics.
02:02:41
Speaker
Bye. Bye.