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Episode 730 - Jurgies Into Mystery #17: Thor Disassembled
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Time for a Jurgalogue. We're finishing our re-read of the Jurgies with a story not written by Dan Jurgens. It's the Michael Avon Oeming-written "Thor Disassembled" Ragnarok story from Thor #80-85. So how does it compare to the 79 issues before it?
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Transcript
Introduction and Zencastr Promo
00:00:00
Speaker
This show is recorded using Zencaster. If you are a podcaster or you want to be a podcaster and you want to be able to record remotely, you can do so using Zencaster.
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Speaker
They also have hosting options and you can let them know that we sent you. Follow the link in our show notes or in the episode description and sign up for an account on Zencaster now to start recording your own podcast.
Playful Banter and Pop Culture References
00:00:28
Speaker
Lightus, I'm bored. What plaything can you offer me today?
00:00:38
Speaker
got War Rocket Ajax to bring back his body. Terminator X-Z-Yup!
00:00:53
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and welcome to War Rocket Ajax. This is the Internet's Most Explosive Comic Book and Pop Culture Podcast. We are your hosts. My name is Chris Sims. With me, as always, is Matt Wilson.
00:01:05
Speaker
And Matt, I have a question for you. Hit me.
Philosophical Choices: Money vs. Experience
00:01:08
Speaker
I got this question from TikTok. Okay. Where it is apparently a topic of some debate.
00:01:17
Speaker
the the The heart of discourse. Yes. Yes. Would you still love me if I was a worm? No, it's not that question. It's not that question.
00:01:28
Speaker
The question is, and the reason I'm not saying my answer first is because you'll know it as soon as I ask this question. all right. Would you rather have $1 million dollar or be able to throw one kamehammeha Oh, you're going to throw the Kamehameha for sure. Yeah, boy.
00:01:51
Speaker
You know how ah my my running gag is to the running gag that I essentially stole from David Brothers and put a little bit of a twist on? Is that I'm going to take all the public domain books and just add, but it would have been different if Goku was there. Uh-huh, right, yeah.
00:02:05
Speaker
She would be pretty different around here if I could throw even one Kamehameha. Even one, Matt. Yes. I might give what you would consider a surprising and answer. I would also throw the Kamehameha.
00:02:21
Speaker
Excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent. Now, if it was $50 million, dollars different different scenario. But also, life is not about material things.
Valuing Experiences Over Wealth
00:02:35
Speaker
Life is about experiences. That's true. that's true if If given the experience to throw Kamehameha, how could I pass that up? the There is, in fact, an amount of money that I would take over a Kamehameha.
00:02:55
Speaker
It's not a million dollars, though. It's not a million dollars. It is the amount of money where I could live comfortably for the rest of my life, and also fund research that would allow me to throw at least one Kamehameha.
00:03:08
Speaker
Correct. A million dollars is only going to buy you a nice house in some places. i'm talking I'm talking Bruce Wayne money, baby. I'm not even talking about about Bezos bucks. I'm talking about Bruce bucks.
00:03:25
Speaker
I'm talking about fit Scrooge bucks. Bruce Wayne money is basically infinite money. Bruce Wayne money is basically infinite money, yes. yeah That's the phrase I use when I when i need to refer to having a large amount of money, as I say if I have Bruce Wayne money.
Support Through Patreon
00:03:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's good. I like that. Matt, we have a fun show for everyone tonight. To all things, there must come an end. And this episode, we are going to bring to an end the 1998 volume of Floor, which we've been referring to as Jurgis, because Dan Jurgens wrote 79 issues of this volume.
00:04:08
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Now we are doing the last six issues written by ah Michael Avon aiming with early Andrea DeVito art.
00:04:24
Speaker
That we're going to, I guess we're calling it aiming geese. We also thought about calling it a jurgalog. ah Because it's the epilogue to Jurgens Thor run. Right, so please Jurgalog with us.
00:04:38
Speaker
Jurgalog with us as we read the ah Thor disassembled story called Ragnarok ah from Thor numbers 80 to 85 on this episode.
00:04:53
Speaker
A story that is perhaps a little divisive. it Will it disassemble this podcast? It might just. Time will tell.
Gimmick Street and Fictional Locations
00:05:04
Speaker
In the meantime, though, Chris, we do have some business to take care of here at the top of the show, starting with thanking our newest supporters over on the website, Patreon.
00:05:16
Speaker
That's right, Matt. Now, these are the people who have chosen a very easy way to support the show. They don't have to go down to 730 Gimmick Straight. They don't need no kettlebells.
00:05:30
Speaker
They can just go to patreon.com slash warrocketajax and kick in as little as a dollar a month to help us keep doing the show, help keep funding this show, Movie Fighters, Snack Situation, our bonus content, all the good stuff that we do here at the Kaleidos Media family of podcasts.
00:05:48
Speaker
And, most importantly, help us pay those gimmicks that keep sending in the mail called bills. Too true, too true.
00:05:58
Speaker
and Also, naming the addresses on Gimmick Street. As a patron at the $15 level or higher, you become a member of the Gimmick Street Preservation Society. and you For $1, you become a member of the Gimmick Street Gang.
00:06:18
Speaker
That's right. Any member is a member of the Gimmick Street Gang. When you reach $15 or higher, then you're a member of the Gimmick Street Preservation Society, a subgroup of the Gimmick Street gang.
00:06:31
Speaker
It's kind of the the the front of the Gimmick Street gang. Yeah. It's kind of like ah you have the Shriners and then you have the Masons. I don't really know how those organizations work.
00:06:43
Speaker
Anyway – Our newest location on Gimmick Street, the naming rights for 730 Gimmick Street, have been purchased by Chris Kaiser.
Comic Book References and Discussions
00:06:54
Speaker
The Kies! That's right. Who has determined that 730 Gimmick Street has the Gimmick Street First Church of the Fourth World. a That's a good church.
00:07:05
Speaker
Yes, preaching the good word of the High Father, the Son, Darkseid, and the Holy Escape Artist, devoted to the teaching of the King of Kings of Comics. I'm going to quibble with some doctrine for a second.
00:07:20
Speaker
Okay. The escape artist is the sun. The escape artist is the sun, that's true. Yeah, Darkseid is in no way... The son of Highfather?
00:07:30
Speaker
That's heresy. That's fully a heresy. The father could be Darkseid and the son could be Orion. The father should be Highfather, the son should be Mr. Miracle, and the Holy Ghost should be Darkseid. He should be the unholy ghost.
00:07:48
Speaker
The unholy ghost. The father, of the son, and the unholy ghost. Right. The Tiger Force. The Tiger Force at the center of all things, yes. How yeah how could... We ignore him, our other face.
00:08:02
Speaker
Matt. I like about the first church of the the first ah full gospel independent church of the for Fourth World Assembly of Scoffery is ah just the the architecture is wild. it's It's like four stories high, but it does have like an 80-story steeple.
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah. With various swirly bits. yeah It's got a big hat on it. It is a building with a hat, which is interesting. Yes. And you know, it's it's that's why a lot of ah the gimmicks read good hats.
00:08:42
Speaker
when they ah when Before a game, you can see them in there. Yeah. Ain't no atheists in playoff season, baby. What's a steeple if not a building's hat? Hmm.
00:08:53
Speaker
So true. So true. If you would like to be like Chris, actually, ah Chris Kaiser, actually, I need to look and see if we have any new Patreon supporters that I need to read out as well.
00:09:06
Speaker
Let's see. some Some editing of memberships, but I don't see any actual new memberships. um We are at still a pretty good level.
00:09:19
Speaker
of Patreon support at 428 paid. That was after the end of the month where there's some culling that always happens. um So still doing pretty good, but we're still trying to get to a beast.
00:09:32
Speaker
You can help us get to a
Encouragement to Support and Share
00:09:33
Speaker
beast. That would be 666, obviously. um You can do that by going to patreon.com slash warrocketajax. And as Chris said, kicking in as little as a dollar a month to make sure that we do this show every week, that we do the monthly comics catch-up and every story ever specials.
00:09:49
Speaker
that we do movie fighters and snack situations. All of those shows are made possible by your support. And as a patron at any level, any member of the gimmick street gang gets every single episode of all of those shows completely ad free.
00:10:03
Speaker
um That would ah be great. Wouldn't it? To get all those shows ad-free? I think so. i think so. And you also support us here on the show. um At the $5 level, you get bonus content. That's bonus audio that we record. Outtakes that I cut out of the show and put on Patreon.
00:10:20
Speaker
um Stuff that we write, especially for Patreon, which we do sometimes. and All that bonus content is there. If you join at the $5 level now and you've never joined before, there's a pretty sizable backlog.
00:10:34
Speaker
of bonus content that you can go check out right now. At the $10 level, you get line-stepping privileges for our segments, which currently include Every Story Ever and 1 to 10 of Swords.
00:10:45
Speaker
I mentioned on the Every Story Ever special that we haven't done a non-line-stepper list on Every Story Ever in quite some time. A hot minute,
Video Games Discussion and Personal Anecdotes
00:10:54
Speaker
Yes, that is worth remembering. At the $15 level, you get the Gimmick Street naming rights that you just heard.
00:11:03
Speaker
And at the $20 and up level, you get a t-shirt every single year. um I am going to be putting in the order for t-shirts within the next few days.
00:11:15
Speaker
So if you have yet to give me that t-shirt size, it's probably too late by the time you're hearing this episode. But the t-shirt should be coming in July to people at that level.
00:11:28
Speaker
if you're unable to help us monetarily, you can help us out in other ways. You can leave us a five-star review on the podcasting app that you use. That would help us out a whole bunch. Let people know that they should listen to the show.
00:11:39
Speaker
Or, um, you could just spread the word about the show. Tell your family and friends to listen and tell them to back our Patreon, uh, and help us out. If, if you're unable to do so, uh, that, that would be a big help as well.
00:11:53
Speaker
Um, Or just spreading the word and getting people to listen would be ah help also. All right, Chris, with that, it's time for some checks and recs. What do you say?
00:12:04
Speaker
Let's do it.
00:12:09
Speaker
Chris, what would you like to check in with this week? Matt, I know people get a little – look, don't try and tell me I'm wrong about this. But I know people get a little tired of it when I just kind of talk about the same thing over and over.
00:12:23
Speaker
you know like i know that I kind of get locked in to wanting a specific kind of experience. And so I always just keep talking about it.
00:12:37
Speaker
But I do want you to know that at long last, I did move on from the Yakuza slash Like a Dragon series of video games.
00:12:50
Speaker
Oh, interesting. Very interesting. I did. And I started playing Judgment, the spinoff of the Like a Dragon slash Yakuza series of video games, ah where it also takes place in Kamurocho, uses the RGG engine, has basically the same mechanics.
00:13:06
Speaker
But what if Kiryu was Phoenix Wright, Matt? Okay, alright. What if he was a lawyer solving crimes? Doing detective work.
00:13:17
Speaker
Interesting. Now, that, I think, you might like. It's intriguing. i'm interested I am interested, yes. But I will say, something about it didn't click with me.
00:13:29
Speaker
Alright. So, I'm now playing Like a Dragon, colon the man who erased his name. Which is about Kiryu. Which is about them making like three games without Kiryu, and then being like, ugh, we better talk about what Kiryu was up to.
00:13:45
Speaker
That's also like a prequel to Like a Dragon. It is a parallel story, yeah. or Yeah, like because Kiryu appears in Like a Dragon, and yeah and then you're like, how did he get there? And then ah the man who erased his name explains that, as far as I yes and as far as i know. yeah Well, Matt, I'll tell you He erased his dang name.
00:14:09
Speaker
He sure did. He went over to the board, he took he picked up the the eraser, and he erased it. He wrote Kazuma Kiryu, and then wrote Kazuma Kiryu, and then he put two lines through the Y. yeah Now, Matt, I know that Ichiban Kasuga...
00:14:29
Speaker
Is your guy. That's my dude. That's your dog? Yeah. That's that's your 100% road dog right there. that That's my road dog, yes.
00:14:40
Speaker
And I know that I am Kiryu boy. Yeah. I like Ichiban, but I love Kiryu. And here's what I'll say, Matt.
00:14:52
Speaker
What if I told you that Kiryu fucking had web shooters?
00:15:01
Speaker
pretty good what if what if he just fully had web shooters at the start of the game and the opening fight tutorial was like don't forget to hit b to use your spider-man ass web shooters uh That's very in line with the Like a Dragon series of like, let's do this thing a different game has done, but put it in our game. Uh-huh.
00:15:30
Speaker
And so they i I'm guessing they played Spider-Man PS4 and were like, okay.
00:15:37
Speaker
I do like the idea of going, dang, this Spider-Man is pretty cool. Can anybody have web shooters? Yeah. no but Nothing in the rules says that you can't. Yeah. It's literally called The Spider.
00:15:51
Speaker
it's It's webs that shoot out of his wristwatch. Because he's a secret agent now. Interesting. Yeah, man. I love him. i I love that. I love the world's most autistic man.
00:16:08
Speaker
he just wants to sing karaoke and race his slot cars. So that's what I've been up to this week, Matt. ah And I'm not going to recommend it just yet, ah partially because I'm not that far into the game, and partially because I've recommended and enough of these games that I've kind of recommended this one just by proxy.
Local Events and Improvised Star Trek
00:16:31
Speaker
ah So Matt, what are you up to this week? Well, I know i do this sometimes, and... It better not be a serious thing. I'm out here playing video games. It's...
00:16:41
Speaker
no No, I would not say serious. I would say local. I sometimes talk about things that are happening locally um that a lot of people listening to this can't come to.
00:16:56
Speaker
But it is what I've been doing. And if you are close enough to come, um you absolutely should. ah because I think it's going to be ah blast and a hoot.
00:17:09
Speaker
I have been starting rehearsals for the improvised Star Trek show that I'm going to be in. Now, it is everything that happens in the story is improvised.
00:17:24
Speaker
The characters are going to be set before the show. so we're going to be playing the same characters in every show that we're do we're doing. We're doing um six shows, August 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, then August 8th, 9th, and 10th.
00:17:40
Speaker
So those two weekends, we're going to be doing um improvised Star Trek shows set during the next generation time period, 24th century, and we're going to be wearing next generation uniforms.
00:17:56
Speaker
I am going to be the first officer the ship. on the ship ah Everybody already knows what they're what their roles are. I won't say anything more about my character, even though he's got a pretty wild backstory.
00:18:13
Speaker
um I am very curious to know if you're human. i am human. ah ah Both the captain and the first officer are human. A great improviser named Carlicia is our captain.
00:18:28
Speaker
um But we do have we have a lot of half-aliens in the crew. um We have a half Vulcan, a half Betazoid, ah full Ferengi, and I'm sure there's an alien I'm forgetting about. Another alien that I'm forgetting about. but we have A Spock, a Troi, and a Rom.
00:18:51
Speaker
We got a Spock, a Troi, or a Quark, so to speak. Well, Quark wasn't in Starfleet, Matt. This Ferengi... is is going to be the the guy who runs 10 forward.
00:19:05
Speaker
oh Oh, okay. All right. So that's good. That's a good thought. He is kind of a quark, ah so to speak. um But it is ah going to be a very fun show.
00:19:19
Speaker
we We've done like our first like main rehearsal um that involves like the opening of the show, which will actually have the theme song and the Space the Final Frontier speech.
00:19:31
Speaker
We're going to do the credits live. where we're going to say our names and our character names at the top to let everyone know who we are before the episode starts.
00:19:42
Speaker
I will be having ticket ticket information, like where you can actually buy tickets ah pretty soon. I'll be sharing that on all my social media and everything. But it is... Really exciting to be doing this improvised Star Trek show.
00:19:58
Speaker
I may be talking about this more in the future. um i certainly will be talking about it on my social medias in the near future with ticket links and stuff. So if anybody can come out to Asheville to NC Stage, that's where we're going to be doing it.
00:20:15
Speaker
ah Then the first two weekends in August, ah come out and see one or many of our improvised Star Trek shows.
Transitioning D&D to In-Person Play
00:20:26
Speaker
I am very bummed that I no longer live in North Carolina and can't come see that show.
00:20:33
Speaker
I'm hoping there will be some kind of video component where we can share that, but... i hope so, because I am very tempted to get a plane ticket.
00:20:45
Speaker
ah I know it's it's very much in your wheelhouse. Yeah, two of my favorite things. And improv comedy. Yeah. i don't it i but I would hesitate to call it comedy. i mean Certainly there will be comedic moments, but the the idea here is to do a Star Trek. so and Not to say that there won't be parts that are funny, but we're not we're not going for funny.
00:21:10
Speaker
We had the choice of either buying realistic-looking uniform shirts or these like T-shirts. That sort of look like the uniforms, but like they're sort of like tuxedo t-shirts for Star Trek uniforms.
00:21:24
Speaker
and And we all decided like it's going to look like it's too goofy of a show if we're wearing the t-shirts. yes Look, no matter like even if you were doing full-blown slapstick comedy, if you're going to do it... Get the real thing.
00:21:41
Speaker
yeah get the Get the uniform, baby. That's what we're doing. you should get those ah You should get those Klingons from Charlotte. Damn, we should. They told i have a warrior's heart.
00:21:54
Speaker
That's great. They were there at Heroes. They're always their heroes. I love them. Yeah, they're great. All right, Chris, it's time for some recommendations. what do you have to recommend? ah Matt, I am going to recommend ah something that I told you about. ah Something that I've been spending some time with tonight.
00:22:11
Speaker
ah Doing a little doing little craft. A little ah artsy, crafty moment. I am moving one of my D&D campaigns, the one that I do with some local people, to being fully in-person, which is great. you know I've got ah ah i've got a ah ah gamer table, as you know.
00:22:31
Speaker
i own a great many dice. I have all the books. ah But one of the reasons that I play online so much is that I'm heavily invested in digital maps, in Roll20, in tokens. ah like ah i Those are the Patreons that I follow.
00:22:51
Speaker
those are you know i spend a lot of time making maps and everything on on in Photoshop. ah So moving to online, or moving to in-person from online, was a little bit daunting for me.
00:23:06
Speaker
Because I'm going to be going from having... like what I would consider to be a pretty immersive setup of, you know, full of art to not having nearly as many resources for that.
00:23:24
Speaker
And obviously, you know, I could do theater of the mind. You don't need miniatures for D&D. I am... i am I would like to think I'm decent at describing things. It has been my job for 20 years, but it's always fun to have like a little guy. you know This is your little guy that's going to move around the board.
00:23:44
Speaker
And as you know, I also like board games. So I went looking, and at my local comic book store, I found the Dungeon Craft ahc Cursed Lands box from 1985 Games.
00:24:00
Speaker
And this was a... It's it's a box full of maps. I am running the Curse of Strahd campaign, and there's a lot of stuff in there that is very useful for that.
00:24:14
Speaker
It's all, like, 8.5x11 dry or wet erase maps that you can also, like, you know, you can cut scenery out of.
00:24:26
Speaker
ah You can cut... ah Like, there'll be, like... e ah multiple maps of a multi-floor ah building that you can literally stack on top of each other and flip over, ah which is is very fun.
00:24:40
Speaker
ah And there's even, they have like little monster tokens that you can cut out. Now, I am a notably clumsy man. hu ah it It is, i would say, one of my unfortunately defining characteristics I don't trust myself with a pair of scissors.
00:25:04
Speaker
So, ah while I did, in fact, ah get... ah this massive amount of maps. ah ah the The list price on it is $50, and it is a it is a stack of maps that covers a ton of the kind of buildings you might find in Curse of Strahd. I think, like, kind of everything but Castle Ravenloft, and there's terrain pieces that you can use to really make that happen as well.
00:25:36
Speaker
ah Like, that was $50, I also just went ahead and picked up a little paper cutter. i think it was like less than 20. It was under 20 bucks.
00:25:47
Speaker
And it also had like a little corner rounder in it. So buddy, you know, I'm, I'm making rounded corners yeah right for benches. I'm doing it real nice.
00:25:59
Speaker
ah You can get these at your local comic or game store. You can also get them on the bookstore website if you want. And they have, Plenty of stuff that is very cool. They've got the Cursed Land set. They've got a set called Fallen Kingdom that's like a like a dinosaur and kind of jungle adventure themed one. They have one called Hell in High Water.
00:26:23
Speaker
that's I'm going to guess that one was maybe meant to release alongside ah Descent into Avernus and Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which I have also seen a lot of this art on Roll20, and I have used some of it on Roll20.
00:26:39
Speaker
And I can tell you, I like it there, and I like it a lot in person as well. So that's making things a lot easier for me. I'm also getting some ah like flat cardboard minis that I will talk about at a future date. But definitely check out ah the 1985 Games Dungeon Craft boxes.
Game Recommendation: Nine Souls
00:26:59
Speaker
ah There's a lot of really fun stuff if you're playing a game in person. And they're also available digitally. Matt, what would you like to recommend to the people?
00:27:10
Speaker
Chris, I would like to recommend a game. It's one that we have talked about in the past, but I saw that it was on sale, so I bought it on the Switch store and have been playing it for the last little while. It's a Metroidvania that I've heard a lot of good things about.
00:27:28
Speaker
um It's called Nine Souls. Oh, yeah, yeah, And it's developed by a Taiwanese developer called Red Candle Games.
00:27:41
Speaker
And it's definitely got a lot of sort of cultural stuff in it that you might maybe wouldn't see from a Western developer, which I think is very cool.
00:27:53
Speaker
It definitely feels Taiwanese. um It is also a game that I could imagine being very frustrating when you start to play it. Because the mechanic that it is very focused on from the beginning is parrying.
00:28:12
Speaker
it's It's very similar, or clearly inspired by Sekiro, which is a game with a battle system that is all about parrying and timing, and and and it's essentially a rhythm game as an action game.
00:28:29
Speaker
um It's sort of shockingly similar to Punch-Out! And as someone who loves Punch-Out! as much as I do, um i kind of also hate parrying mechanics in games.
00:28:42
Speaker
And so there was a little bit of a learning curve for me to really like get to where I could enjoy playing nine souls But once I got over that hump, and once I really got it kind of got like the rhythm and and style of gameplay down, and got more abilities, essentially once I got an air dash, the game really opened up for me.
00:29:07
Speaker
And it is a very clever, very well done, very good Metroidvania kind of in the vein of a Hollow Knight with some Hollow Knight style mechanics.
00:29:21
Speaker
The game that I would probably most compare it to is Hollow Knight, even though it's there's way more focus on the parrying mechanic. um I would say I'm probably halfway through it at this point, and i am anticipating it getting better.
00:29:40
Speaker
as I continue to play it because it's only gotten better so far. So I don't feel a lot of hesitation about going ahead and recommending it. It is a really high-quality, very good Metroidvania, with some really beautiful character art and backgrounds and all of that.
00:30:04
Speaker
That's what I'm recommending. Nine Souls, which I think is on basically every platform. I've heard a lot of good things about it, but I haven't played it myself. And while I don't love Metroidvania with pairing parrying mechanics, I do love Hollow Knight.
00:30:22
Speaker
Yeah. So that comparison has me intrigued. Yeah, i I would say get through the first couple of bosses. It's also really... really got incredible boss fights so far.
00:30:37
Speaker
um but i would know Are they incredible boss fights? Are they those hard boss fights that you like? I mean, a little of both. but But they're also like fair. like it's it's They're very much boss fights that once you figure out the pattern, you can do them.
00:30:53
Speaker
But they can be punishing. I just fought one boss that was like He could one-shot you if you weren't careful. um But they're also, like again, really well-designed, and you can you can figure out the patterns and get them down ah pretty after a few tries.
00:31:16
Speaker
ah So I think it's worth checking out and trying. ah So that's that's my rec. Chris, with that, it's time to talk about some comics.
00:31:27
Speaker
Let's do it.
00:31:30
Speaker
Chris,
Comic Analysis: Captain America and Others
00:31:31
Speaker
before we get into the full comic segment, I just want to talk very briefly about X-Men Hellfire Vigil, ah which is by ah wide array of writers and artists.
00:31:43
Speaker
ah
00:31:46
Speaker
For such a clean break from Krakoa, they really keep going back to it, huh? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. mean, they should. Yeah, that's all. it was good.
00:31:58
Speaker
Because it was good. That's really all I had to say about that. yeah Now, on to the Text Your Choice winner the Matt, what I've got to say about this is that I didn't read that book, um but boy, that logo.
00:32:09
Speaker
and i don't know if who designed that logo, but I'll tell you who didn't. Dylan Todd. dylan would have done Dylan would have done you something a lot better for the same price, Marvel Comics. That's all I'm saying.
00:32:24
Speaker
Fair. All right. Now we're going to talk about the Texas Choice winner for the week. That book is Captain America No. 1, written by Chip Zdarsky. Finally, the the the vice grip on Captain America, the JMS grip of making Captain America a landlord is over.
00:32:46
Speaker
And ah now we're into Chip doing a really weird Captain America story that starts with a page um with nine eleven happening. ah Matt, I think you said it best.
00:33:00
Speaker
If I can quote you. yeah If it was anybody else, you might have just said no there. Yeah, i I might have noped out on that first page if it was anybody else.
00:33:11
Speaker
But, it is Chip, who I'm mad at.
00:33:20
Speaker
I'm furious with Chip Zdarsky. Because, like...
00:33:26
Speaker
Because he's like, I feel like as a fan of Chips, I was lied to for years. Thinking, oh, he's just he's just a goofy guy telling goofy stories.
00:33:40
Speaker
He's just doing the yuck yucks. Yeah, he's just a funny, goofy guy. No, Chips one of the best comic writers of the generation. It's it's infuriating. yeah his batman is His Batman is like in my top three runs on the character Batman.
00:33:57
Speaker
I love it. You know, his Daredevil's incredible. Like, everything he does. Also, no truer American... That's true....than Toronto's own... That's right....Chip Zdarsky.
00:34:08
Speaker
And this story is kind of fascinating to me, because it feels like it shouldn't be in the monthly Captain America title... but like yeah it It obviously should be.
00:34:19
Speaker
it feels like it should be like Captain America Sentinel of Liberty or something like that. because It feels like it should be an OGN or something. Because the premise of this is that Captain America comes out of of the ice.
00:34:33
Speaker
like it's It's all a flashback to kind of Captain America year one. Well, it's it's a week. This this issue is taking place a week after they took him out of the ice. Yeah. So so he doesn't no he doesn't know what the UN n is.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Which is a good bit. yeah And while he was frozen, there is and another guy 9-11 happens. That's why 9-11 happens on page one. There's a kid who sees 9-11 happening.
00:35:03
Speaker
And then he grows up and he wants to to join the army. But he is, like Steve Rogers, like physically very frail. and But he you know there's no quid in him.
00:35:16
Speaker
And...
00:35:18
Speaker
I think that's a really interesting idea, because Chip is not like shying away from the fact that post-911 America is kind of a really different situation than 1940 America, yeah i mean with regards to who we're fighting.
00:35:35
Speaker
There's already like just a harder edge to ah David Colton. I swear to God I thought it was going to be Joe Colton. Because he's he's called Colton before you get his name. And I'm like, is Chip bringing back the original G.I. i Joe, who Marvel doesn't have the rights to?
00:35:57
Speaker
i wish. God almighty. It could be a reference to that, potentially. um but you know it's But David Colton, like like I said, there's already a harder edge to him than – there is to Steve Rogers.
00:36:12
Speaker
yeah And so, but but we don't quite get there in this issue to like what his deal is. Yeah. But there was like a really good moment where he's on the phone with his mom. She's like, yeah, you're joining the army to go fight a racist war.
00:36:29
Speaker
And he's like, no, I'm not here to get revenge. I'm here to protect people. And I really like the idea that chip is doing the 21st century's fifties cap.
00:36:42
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I had that thought, too. like I had the thought that this was fifty s cab. I also had the thought that this was like the new US agent. Yeah.
00:36:53
Speaker
The new John Walker. It's interesting, and there's a lot of really interesting places it could go And the thing about Chip is, I feel like as I could sit here and think of as many interesting places that this could go as I could in a week.
00:37:11
Speaker
And it may go to completely different things. Yeah, it may not be any of them. Also, um i think we've got to mention the art here by Valeria Sheedy.
00:37:23
Speaker
Oh, very good. Very, very It's gorgeous. And there's a bit here where Steve Rogers is like training and ah being approached like being approached by but Thunderbolt Ross, asking him why he wants to rejoin the military, when he could join the Avengers.
00:37:42
Speaker
And Steve is explaining that. And like, you can't help but notice that like shirtless Steve Rogers looks exactly like movie Chris Evans when he comes out of the machine.
00:37:56
Speaker
I mean, it's like note perfect. If you're going to make him look like somebody. Yeah. Yeah. I like i still. The nurse in that scene is still the funniest thing in the world to me.
00:38:12
Speaker
It's so funny. Yeah. If you don't know we're about, watch her. Yeah. um It's not the face, it's but it's just like his body itself looks exactly like that.
00:38:24
Speaker
It's bananas. All right. ah The next comic we're going to talk about is Absolute Green Lantern number four, which I haven't gotten the chance to read yet, but Chris, you said you caught up. Yeah, um this, I think, is the first indication we have that the absolute books are like the ultimate books in that they are all set in the same world.
00:38:49
Speaker
Okay. Have I missed that showing up in any other book? ah Not that I'm aware of. Okay. Because there's ah there's a bit in here where ah a bad guy shows up.
00:39:04
Speaker
And he's like, yeah, yeah, you know we tried to talk to Lazarus about it but you know they're busy dealing with something. But ah it's like it looks like we've got kind of a Gateway City incident of our very own right here.
00:39:15
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, okay. So are we going to get like an absolute Justice League book with these versions of the characters? Because that shit's going to be wild.
00:39:29
Speaker
That shit is going to be wild. I don't know who would even write that book. Also, like my big question is, how is Absolute Wonder Woman happening alongside all of this?
00:39:44
Speaker
You know? like How are the Berserk Kaiju existing in the same world with like you know what's going on in Absolute Green Lantern or Absolute Martian Manhunter? I mean, those...
00:40:00
Speaker
the That doesn't seem as weird to me as some of the of the other stuff. like I have an easier time believing that, like oh yeah, the Berserk Kaiju attacked Gateway City at the same time as the weird Green Lantern stuff was happening.
00:40:17
Speaker
I can reconcile that easier than I can reconcile Absolute Batman and Absolute Martian Manhunter. ah okay yeah Two books that I am absolutely loving...
00:40:30
Speaker
I mean, honestly, I'm loving... i haven't read Flash, but the other four I'm fucking all in on. You know? Yeah, i Flash is the only one I haven't really checked out either. Yeah, yeah I want... But Matt... Matt, thick Batman who uses an axe exists in the same world as the Berserk Kaiju.
00:40:53
Speaker
i mean... ah Okay. That's exciting. Yes. Batman says, knock-knock, motherfucker!
00:41:05
Speaker
i like Everything in the Absolute books feels elevated. like i mean, everything in superhero comics feels elevated. Heightened, for sure. heightened.
00:41:17
Speaker
But everything in the Absolute books feels even more heightened than that. yeah Yeah. That's where I get a little... like unsure of like how can all this stuff coexist but it'll be interesting to see who would you pick to write absolute justice league specifically with this version of batman superman wonder woman martian manhunter and green lighter i mean i feel like any of the current writers on the absolute books could pull it off um i mean i think it's snyder's to to
00:41:55
Speaker
Snyder probably gets first right at first refusal, right? um but If it couldn't be anybody who's currently on one.
00:42:04
Speaker
Huh. Orlando writing any of them? I don't think so. That's a good choice. Steve Orlando, then. That's a real good pick. I think I'd pick Chip.
00:42:17
Speaker
Because I like being mad. You love being mad, yeah. love being mad at good comics. like it a lot more than not like being mad at bad comics. Well, speaking of good comics, um Immortal Thor number 25 ends that series.
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah, man. Hey, it's real weird to be reading a comic that came out this week that is a direct callback and sequel to both the this run of Emmys.
00:42:46
Speaker
Emmingys. Yeah, Emmingys. And the fucking reigning. Well... well It would be... So I got to the part where... Okay.
00:42:58
Speaker
So there's a part where Thor's in the afterlife here. He encounters Donald Blake and gets into a fight with Donald Blake. And he he even says, Donald Blake, my other self.
00:43:13
Speaker
And I'm like, dog, you mean Jake Olsen. I was reading this and I was like, man, this should kind of be Jake Olsen, right? Yeah. Like, because Donald Blake was...
00:43:24
Speaker
Donald Blake was not a real guy. Yeah. But Jake Olsen got put back into, like, the Jake Olsen that is Thor got put back into Thor. Right. So Jake Olsen is still within Thor, as far as we know. Yeah.
00:43:37
Speaker
But, yeah, the whole the whole time it was it was Donald Blake fighting Thor in here, I was like, I think this is actually Jake Olsen. He even kind of looks like Jake Olsen.
00:43:49
Speaker
Yeah, man. It's like when we did the Grunies, we kind of joked when we started that we were doing it because a Falcon and Winter Soldier had come out on right on on Disney, ah wal Walter re Elias Disney edition symbol television.
00:44:08
Speaker
Right. Yeah. um But like, it's not like the Grunewald run was like directly coming back.
00:44:20
Speaker
In the way that Thor is like, yeah, man, remember when I did this when Ragnarok happened in in Thor number 82?
00:44:29
Speaker
Right. And hey, remember my son Magni from the future that of the reigning slash gods and men?
00:44:37
Speaker
Like, remember that? That's wild. I mean, you don't remember that because i changed I went back and changed the past. Yeah. But but i did but but i but I did have Magni because I came back and told myself some stuff.
00:44:52
Speaker
And so I didn't know about Magni. And that's why I brought him back, you know, from from Gods and Men, the alternate future story that didn't happen. Right. as i would make it but Because I went back and changed the past so it didn't happen.
00:45:06
Speaker
That's wild to be reading it in parallel. like if yeah If you're a War Rocket Ajax listener, you're getting a lot out of Immortal Thor. ah this is It's by Al Ewing by three artists. Jan Balzaldua, Justin Greenwood, and Pascual Ferry. Yeah, the Pascual Ferry stuff looks... I mean i think the entire issue looks great, but the Ferry stuff looks amazing.
00:45:31
Speaker
Yeah. With the Matt Hollingsworth coloring. and And even like like little kid Loki like kind of being mortal Thor's guide. like what's the The end of this issue is he's he of Sigurd Jarlson, just a man.
00:45:48
Speaker
Yeah. you From the Walt Simonson run. But yeah, of course you remember it from the Walt Simonson run. You might not remember it from the tail end of the Juergens run. Yeah. That also is ah That reminds me, it it seems like not i like not even an intentional callback to something that happens in these aiming issues, so...
00:46:11
Speaker
pretty Pretty wild. Pretty wild. It's nuts. I do love the idea Thor has now been erased. like The reason this book is ending is because Thor is being erased from Marvel continuity.
00:46:23
Speaker
So when you see the founding Avengers, it's Hulk, Iron Man, Ant-Man, the Wasp, and Beta Ray Bill. Which is... That's great.
00:46:35
Speaker
I love that. That's a bananas group of people. Well, what better ah time to get into talking about these Michael Avon aiming issues of Thor than after talking about Immortal Thor.
In-Depth Thor Comic Discussion
00:46:57
Speaker
So, for the very last time, you're going to hear that Led Zeppelin soundalike music, and we're going to a Jurg-a-log. One final Jurgian to mystery.
00:47:19
Speaker
Chris, here's how much Marvel Unlimited thinks about these last few issues of Thor 1998. Uh-huh. They're out of order on Marvel Unlimited. Dang. Dang.
00:47:30
Speaker
Why? It goes 81, 80, 82, 83, 84, 85. I don't know why. That's weird, because they're numbered. Sequential. They're numbered. Yeah.
00:47:37
Speaker
i don't know why that's weird because they're like they're numbers sequential they're numbered Yeah, i I do not know how that ended up that way on the Marvel Unlimited website, and yet, here we are. They might be numbered three different times, because I think there's also legacy numbering on the covers.
00:47:57
Speaker
And also, the the like it says Ragnarok 1 of 6, 2 of 6, 3 of 6, etc. oh yeah They had to fuck it up three times.
00:48:07
Speaker
ah And yet. ah Anyway... ah Let's talk about Thor number 80, which has this Andrea DeVito cover, um which I'm just going to say, oh no, that's a Steve Epton cover. That's a Steve Epton cover, baby.
00:48:24
Speaker
um But the art in these six issues, I'm just going to get this out of the way, blanket from the get-go, is some of the best art we've seen.
00:48:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's really good. It's really good. like it's It's early Andrea DeVito art. it's more It's less kind of painterly and more kind of just like pencil and ink line art.
00:48:52
Speaker
um But damn, it's good. like yeah I'm going to have some complaints about this story, but I can't say shit about the art. It's beautiful. And this cover is really good. It's just Thor, like, leg up on a rock, ah holding Mjolnir, lightning coming out of it, and then Iron Man behind him.
00:49:19
Speaker
Yeah. In rain. All six of these covers are done by Steve Epting, and they're all they're all absolutely good. We have had so many complaints about the covers leading up to this, yeah and how they were all the Very basic, very, you know, quote unquote iconic covers, like attempted iconic covers.
00:49:41
Speaker
These some fucking iconic covers, but it's also what's happening in the comic. Right. Yeah. oh God, Steve Efting, man. Good shit. One of the best ever do it. Gave all the Avengers jackets.
00:49:53
Speaker
So ah this issue starts with a prologue that. Matt, you mentioned something. Yeah. That I kind of want to talk about before we get into what happens in the issue. All right.
00:50:05
Speaker
You said you've got some complaints about this story. Yeah. I had very fond memories of this story, but I hadn't re-read it in at least 15 years, if not 20.
00:50:21
Speaker
And I'm very curious to to get into our different experiences, because for me, revisiting this, I was like, no, story's pretty good.
00:50:32
Speaker
think... think that
00:50:37
Speaker
it
00:50:40
Speaker
it's it's made worse by a couple of things. One is context, because I feel like it's a lot of rehashing stuff that just happened in Juergens run.
00:50:54
Speaker
We mentioned this at the end of the Juergens run, that it is really weird that the very next thing that happens after this long story of Thor dying, essentially, and Ragnarok happening and all the Asgardians dying, is that Thor and all the Asgardians die and Ragnarok happens. yeah And yeah I will say, the big difference between me reading it as it came out and reading it now is that I was not reading Thor prior to this.
00:51:20
Speaker
I was, and i remember I remember getting into the first couple issues of this and being like, this is just the same thing. And I don't even know if I even finished it at the time.
00:51:30
Speaker
But also, it's got kind of like a stilted... odd way of telling its story that actually made me appreciate the Juergens run more.
00:51:43
Speaker
there There was a moment specifically in this issue where I thought the pages might be out of order for a second until I was like, no, because the thing I'm thinking of happens like in the middle of page one, and so that's definitely where it starts.
00:51:58
Speaker
So I will agree with that, and I do think there's some...
00:52:04
Speaker
There's some weirdness with like some dialogue. I definitely took a like a couple of of screenshots of weird dialogue.
00:52:16
Speaker
sent you one of of Thor saying he will s spit in the face of people who don't want to be cool. yeah Thor, very much like Carlito, is about to get released from Marvel Comics. Brutal. At least for a little while.
00:52:32
Speaker
Here's the thing. i there's some character issues in this too. Like, ah I don't want to blame Michael Avon aiming entirely for this because this was definitely a thing where it's like, Hey, we got to get Thor off the board in six issues because he's not going to be around during Avengers disassembled.
00:52:53
Speaker
And so we need him to separate himself from the other Avengers and then go away because we're just not going to have a Thor title for a while. And so that's I understand that that's like the basis of what this story is meant to do, and it has to do it in six issues.
00:53:11
Speaker
I don't know why the end of the Juergens run just couldn't have been that. I don't either. but I mean, I think because maybe the end of the Juergens run is that Thor doesn't die. Yeah. and business he He fixes Ragnarok happening and everybody dying.
00:53:28
Speaker
Yeah. And so now now he he has to go through Ragnarok and die. And so now we're going to tell that story. um But also, there
00:53:43
Speaker
there are things where characters feel like their most basic, reverted versions of themselves. And I'm particularly talking about Loki here.
00:53:56
Speaker
Loki is just, ha ha ha, I'm evil Loki. like it This is Loki in, I'm the Joker baby mode. I mean, yeah. like this this is It's very weird because I don't have ah i got any quibbles with your complaints.
00:54:13
Speaker
yeah I think all of your complaints are reasonable. I do think this is a much better story than The Reigning and Gods and Men. Interesting.
00:54:24
Speaker
The weird thing for me reading them back-to-back is that, like yeah, they're kind of the same thing, but this one's a lot better. I think The Reigning in Gods and Men is a convoluted story with some big problems.
00:54:38
Speaker
But I also admire that it is
00:54:45
Speaker
doing some character development and taking some big swings with character and... trying to do some interesting stuff. Like, Loki's not just a bad guy.
00:54:57
Speaker
or Or the way he's doing bad things is kind of in the background as a member of Thor's
00:55:05
Speaker
advising team.
00:55:09
Speaker
Where he's also, like, sort of become a believer in what Thor is doing until they end up separating a again by the end, right? Like, That's an interesting new direction for Loki. Whereas... Loki's just back to cackling villain in this.
00:55:26
Speaker
you know like you i just want to kill my brother. Would you have liked it better if Loki had like some posters of... Boeing... Airplanes? Yeah, of like of like Boeing jets and Ford F-150s and Coca-Cola.
00:55:44
Speaker
ah There's some inexplicable head-scratching... decisions in the jerkies yeah that I cannot defend. No, I think what appeals to me about this is that like, yeah, everybody's kind of back to their simplest possible forms.
00:56:02
Speaker
But to me, that is like in the way that like a fairy tale is in its simplest possible form. This is very much written in the style of of of mythology, which I think I think works for it.
00:56:18
Speaker
the I was going to mention that. It feels more like a myth, like reading a myth than a comic book in some ways. Yeah. Than a superhero comic.
00:56:29
Speaker
Because this is what myths feel like. Where like wild shit just happens. Like we'll get to some of the wild shit that happens in this.
00:56:42
Speaker
And if it were a regular Thor comic, I think... the natural reaction would be, why did do that?
00:56:52
Speaker
but But because this is what this story is, and it is very mythic in the way that it's told, you know...
00:57:02
Speaker
That's just the the way it's presented. one last thing. When we were discussing this before we recorded, we sort of came down on the notion that um my critique of this is it's like a fan comic negative, and your praise of it is it's like a fan comic positive.
00:57:23
Speaker
Yeah. yeah i think I think we're very much in agreement with the aspects of the story, but I just like them more than you do. Yeah, it I find it a jarring reading experience.
00:57:36
Speaker
But I so also see what you're saying. yeah um So this starts with a prologue, which is all about the creation of the forge that became the forge in which Mjolnir was made.
00:57:54
Speaker
um So we learn about Atri and ah how... But Odin had to go to great lengths to get the the the hammer, and also he adopted Loki.
00:58:11
Speaker
And then finally, we get – Thor was wielding the hammer, and we're to status quo. And then we get a bit where the forge is being ah transported across a bridge – And the ah guys carrying it, I guess those are dwarves, right? It's Atri, Brock, and Cinder, yeah.
00:58:37
Speaker
Yeah, okay. um The bridge breaks. It cracks and breaks underneath them. And the forge falls into lake. And Loki sees this happening.
00:58:51
Speaker
And is like, ha ha ha, this is what I could use to kill Thor. Yeah. Time for me to become the Joker. its just Time for me to be the Joker, baby.
00:59:03
Speaker
so is that is that Matt, you can bleep this out if you want. Is that your Star Trek guy's origin? That he's the Joker, baby? he's the Joker? Because you did say it was wild.
00:59:14
Speaker
And the Joker is wild. That's true. But no, he's he's not the Joker. And I wouldn't lie about that. Okay. So then we get the... the what's What's going on with Thor right now?
00:59:29
Speaker
Thor and Asgard right now? um he He and all his buds are there, and Thor is still king of Asgard because Odin is still dead. Yeah, because this is the next issue of Thor after the events of the reigning.
00:59:46
Speaker
Right. so so but But it's kind of like set back to what Thor was in issue 60-something. sixty something Well, right Matt, Thor is kind of where he was in issue 60-something, because issues 70 to 80 didn't happen.
01:00:06
Speaker
Right, that's what I mean. yeah so like So like it's to whatever point he went back to when he reversed the reigning. But he didn't undo Odin's death, so Odin is still dead.
01:00:18
Speaker
yeah And Thor is still King of Asgard. But we learned that he does not have the Odin power. Which I don't understand. Yeah, he does.
01:00:32
Speaker
He does not. When does he not have the Odin power? From the very beginning of this, he doesn't have the Odin power. He talks about how he doesn't have the Odin power. Okay, i'm I missed that. Yeah, there's a whole thing in here about how he's like, yeah, for some reason I don't have the Odin power anymore, and so um I've got to figure out a way to get the Odin power back. I'm not a very good ruler because um the my Odin power is gone.
01:00:57
Speaker
So when Loki shows up, ah along with – who is it all that's with him? He's got Ulic with him.
01:01:09
Speaker
His son, who is a dog. Fenris. Fenris, yeah. That's an interesting way to refer to Fenris, because it is very accurate. Fenris is a dog, and he's Loki's son. And he's Loki's son, yeah. like And who's the big giant guy?
01:01:24
Speaker
He's a big giant guy. He's a big giant guy. Okay. yeah So they show up at attack, and they've all got hammers, because they had the Loki stole the forge that went into the lake. Yeah.
01:01:38
Speaker
and made hammers for himself and his crew. And so he destroys Mjolnir with his hammer. And there is like a weird page where it's just the broken Mjolnir, and Thor is like leaning over it. It's a really beautiful piece of art by Andre DeVito, but like no captions or anything on that page.
01:01:59
Speaker
It's just a pin-up. Thor has like a 16-pack. He has so many abs, yes. so So now Thor is like essentially powerless because he has no hammer anymore and he doesn't have the Odin power.
01:02:16
Speaker
So he like summons the Avengers and ah that's where that issue ends. like He meets Captain America and Iron Man in New York and he's like, I need you guys' help.
01:02:30
Speaker
So that's where we're we end that issue.
01:02:35
Speaker
Thor number 81 has Thor and Iron Man and Captain America on the cover in like some rubble, and it looks pretty good.
01:02:45
Speaker
And it starts with Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America walking around in this like ruined forest on their way back to Asgard, and they find Asgard just like in total shambles. Loki has come back and attacked, and it's on fire.
01:03:01
Speaker
I really liked the bit of this where... Thor's like, hey, sorry, my hammer's broken, so my teleportation kind of got messed up, so we're like a couple miles away from where we need to be.
01:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Which I found very funny. Captain America talks so weird in this. cap top Cap is the weirdest kid. That's the dialogue that i was very aware of, because Cap talks like a Ben Mara character.
01:03:32
Speaker
like At one point he's like, this is the horror of war. yeah Let's just say war is bad.
01:03:44
Speaker
ah So yeah, they go to Asgard. They find like ah kid behind some rubble who's like a survivor. Oh, the giant's name is Hymer.
01:03:57
Speaker
um But like Loki and Hymer and Fenris and Ulrich are still there. And still attacking. And I have to admit, there's a little bit in here of me not understanding what's going on.
01:04:14
Speaker
like It's a little disjointed, because it does feel like this i mean this is a six-issue story. it's not at all like It doesn't feel decompressed. A lot of stuff happens in it.
01:04:26
Speaker
Yeah, almost too much happens in a single page. Or in in like a single issue. In a single issue, for sure. To really get what's happening, because there's a part here where Captain America asks this kid, do you know where there is some iron?
01:04:40
Speaker
Yeah, what a weird way to phrase that. And the kid goes, i have this, and he's got this tiny little like replica of Mjolnir. Yeah, he's got a Mjolnir.
01:04:53
Speaker
That's what it's what you wear when you worship Thor. Right. Yes, I guess he was one of the the Thor worshippers. And like... Well, I mean, he's he's from Asgard, so yeah.
01:05:04
Speaker
Yeah. um
01:05:08
Speaker
I'll just ask this straight up. What is that about? Well, like... Ulick is vulnerable to iron, which I don't think is a thing in any other story.
01:05:21
Speaker
I will admit that. And it's not really explained here. And it's not really explained. Like, Captain America just goes, hey, Ulick's got some wounds on him. What's up with that? And the kid goes, like oh, people attacked him with iron weapons.
01:05:35
Speaker
that's And that's when Cap says, like, this is kind of explained, but I do not blame you for missing it in... ah Because Captain America said something so weird.
01:05:46
Speaker
there's There's a lot of, like I feel like, disjointed storytelling here. But essentially, Thor, Iron Man, Captain America fight off Ulrich, Fenris, Loki. Like, there's a part where Captain America throws his shield into Fenris' mouth when he's about to bite Thor.
01:06:04
Speaker
And Loki's like, ugh, shameful. Okay. So they manage to fend them off, and but they say, oh, we're going to come back.
01:06:15
Speaker
I do have to... like There's a part of me that admires how little dialogue there is in this. But also, like there's some places where we need it to understand what's happening.
01:06:29
Speaker
little bit, of yeah. There is one great moment where Cap says to Fenris, Ruff... Like, R-U-F-F exclamation mark.
01:06:39
Speaker
He marks at him. As if to call back to Cat Wolf.
01:06:47
Speaker
Yeah, man. Everyone loves the Jurgis. Yeah. ah but This is like the Thor equivalent of Cat Wolf. This story.
01:06:57
Speaker
Yeah. So they ah they fight them off.
01:07:04
Speaker
Thor's like, um ah but boys, I'm going to need your help one time one more time. They destroy the giant's hammer. And Thor – Iron Man and Captain America have like little hammers here, and I don't know where those came from. he it's It's the ones he gets from – Matt, I think you're just not paying attention. it's He gets it from Ulic and Fenris.
01:07:24
Speaker
Oh, they took them from Ulic and Fenris. Yeah, those are their hammers. The giant's hammer way too big. Yeah, I gotcha. Okay, so so they destroy that hammer. And then they go back ah to a village where Baldr has been killed. Baldr has been killed off-screen.
01:07:40
Speaker
Yeah, ah we should say like the first time they attack, the Enchantress gets got immediately. yeah i think Baldr also gets killed in that scene, but again, that happens off-panel.
01:07:53
Speaker
Sif loses her arm, I'm pretty sure that also happens during that scene. Yes. Yeah. it's well It's a lot going on there's ah There's an implication that Thor has been gone for a little while to get the Avengers, and Loki and Fenris and the giant have done all this damage. Yeah, it's two months.
01:08:13
Speaker
In that time, yeah. ah But anyway, Baldr is dead, and this makes Thor go, oh fuck, Ragnarok's happening. Like, I know what happens when Baldr dies, and that means Ragnarok's happening. Yeah, because you find out that they showed up with mistletoe-tipped spears and killed Baldr.
01:08:32
Speaker
Yeah. And so he's like, hey, Cap, Iron Man, you got to go because this has become Asgard business now. and And you can't die here. You got to go back to Earth and do your thing.
01:08:43
Speaker
And I got to take care of myself here. And Cap and Iron Man are like, wait, wait, no, wait, we can help. what what do you What do you mean? Yeah, if we're were're your boys, Thor. And ah Thor just sends them away.
01:08:54
Speaker
And he's like, all right, Ragnarok's happening, so let's fuck these dudes up. Yeah, I do like that Thor essentially goes, hey, you guys gotta leave. I'm about to kill some dudes.
01:09:06
Speaker
Yeah. ah Oh, like I can't have you guys risk your lives in ah in a foreign dimension. Also, you might stop me from literally doing some murders, which I am about to do.
01:09:19
Speaker
ah Thor number 82 does have a cover that's not what's in the issue because Asgard isn't destroyed and a bunch of characters who are dead are alive on it.
01:09:31
Speaker
yeah Yeah, but this I know for a fact they made this one into a poster. Oh, I mean, it looks great. look at Look at that damn handsome Fandral. Handsome Fandral.
01:09:43
Speaker
Thor got a cool cape. I'll tell you who Fandral looks like in there. Steve Efting. Accurate. Yeah. um Also, Sif got that big hair.
01:09:55
Speaker
Big hair, big hat. Big hair Sif is what that is. The higher the hair, the closer to the gods. That's right. So we get a flashback to the Warriors 3.
01:10:07
Speaker
um Actually, this is this opens with the scene, I think, where Sif loses her arm. She's already lost her arm at this point. Oh, that's right. But she they think she's dying. Like... And they get a bunch of arrows rained on them, and this this is where the Warriors three are killed.
01:10:24
Speaker
And so then we flash forward to Thor finding the only one remaining of them, who is Volstagg, who is not fat anymore. And they have a ah big conversation about how he's skinny now.
01:10:37
Speaker
Yeah, because he's been he's been hiding out for two months, not eating. So he's Volstagg the Thin now. Right, and he... He's the only one who who survived because he was so big.
01:10:49
Speaker
But... ah Well, the other... is now he's that Hogan and Fendral didn't starve to death. they They were murdered. They were murdered, yeah. But Volstagg survived all those arrows somehow because of his size.
01:11:03
Speaker
um And then we hear... A little bit more about other people who have died in what's going on, like Curse, who fought on the Asgardian side, and ah Thor's brother Vidar, who you do not hear about very much.
01:11:20
Speaker
No, you really don't. They go back to like the big, closed-in part of Asgard, and like Even more destruction is happening.
01:11:32
Speaker
And there's another big battle. Valkyrie shows up and is immediately killed. like She shows up in one panel. She is killed in the next panel. She is hit by lightning while riding her flying horse.
01:11:44
Speaker
Yes. And instantly dies. um And Sif runs over to like cradle her body. And Thor's like, Sif, you're alive. And she's like, of course I'm alive.
01:11:56
Speaker
You can't kill me. I'm Sif, but I do have one arm. More battling happens.
01:12:03
Speaker
ah They chain up Fenris. He breaks out of them. And then Beta Ray Bill shows up ah to save the day. He he knocks Fenris down. And that's where that issue ends.
01:12:14
Speaker
And everybody's like, Bill! Yeah. ah Thor number 83 has a pretty cool cover where Thor is like on his knees on the ground and Mjolnir is in the for foreground.
01:12:27
Speaker
um Not as smashed up as it is inside the book, but that is what is implied.
01:12:35
Speaker
Cool cover. I like it. This starts with the end of the previous issue where Beta Ray Bill arrives and hits Fenris. And there's a thing where he like turns a Fenris-like creature into bones.
01:12:50
Speaker
he does He does turn something into bones. That's not Fenris that he turns into bones, right? That's something else. I think it might be Garm. Okay. Anyway, he becomes bones. He's bones. I'll tell you what he is.
01:13:05
Speaker
Bones. He sure is bones. No, that's Fenris. Okay, he makes Fenris into bones, then.
01:13:14
Speaker
and Just immediately owns. therere They're like, Bill, where you been? and he's like, i've been I've been at peace with my people. But I heard that there was trouble here, so I came here.
01:13:27
Speaker
Why you calling Thor my lord? Isn't Odin alive? And Sif's like, you got a lot to learn. Damn, Bill. You might want to sit down. Yeah. So Thor tells Bill he's got to go on a like ah ah big journey of...
01:13:43
Speaker
self-reflection, and he's got he's got to like lead the people in his place for a little bit. And Bill's like, okay, yeah, I'll do it. Bill's yeah, look, if there's one thing I'm good at, it's being Thor.
01:13:56
Speaker
yeah And Sif talks about how she's got to avenge Valkyrie. like that her That is her big ah goal. Also, ah remember that kid they see it saved a couple issues ago? He's dead now. He's dead.
01:14:13
Speaker
that the like I feel like reading this month to month, that had a lot more impact than when you read them all like back to back to back, and it's like, yeah, that kid died Yeah. And like ah again, off panel.
01:14:30
Speaker
like Oh, Matt, gee, I'm real sorry you didn't get to see this child get murdered, Matt. I know. That must be real bummer for you. I know how much you like watching nasty murder scenes. No, I'm just saying it's... It lessens the dramatic impact.
01:14:44
Speaker
Yeah, okay, but yeah but you do like watching nasty murder scenes. That's true. You have a whole podcast about it. But then at the end of the issue, that kid appears to Thor as a ghost along with Hugin and Munin, the crows, the ravens.
01:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, that kid is a ghost, and he's also Odin. Yeah, i that is never stated outright, but I'm like, this kid's Odin, right? Yeah, that kid's Odin. He talks to him like Odin is a different figure, and he's like, oh, you gotta do what your father did, and more, right?
01:15:22
Speaker
You're not ready to have the Odin power again yet, so you gotta to do all this shit that Odin did, but I'm not gonna tell you that I'm Odin. I'm gonna talk about Odin like he's a different figure.
01:15:35
Speaker
I mean, Matt, it's Ragnarok, so shit's whack. Shit is whack. And i look, I do admire the sort of like fealty to some Norse mythology in this.
01:15:47
Speaker
Like, Ratatosk is discussed. There's um a lot of stuff happening at Yggdrasil. Like, Thor goes to journeys to Yggdrasil to do what Odin did before.
01:16:03
Speaker
it's It's pretty wild that there's a whole bit about like Odin having hanged himself for, how long was it? Like ten days? It was nine. Nine days.
01:16:15
Speaker
Nine's very important. One day for each realm, yeah. yeah ah but that's Which is why he so probably why he didn't know about Heaven, the Tenth Realm. That's right. um But that's like you know straight out of mythology.
01:16:29
Speaker
And there's also this whole bit where Thor goes to a well and rips his eye out like Thor did. Like Odin did. or Yeah, like Odin did. And the kid's like, oh, but you've got to do more than Odin did.
01:16:43
Speaker
You've got to do more than your dad. You've got to rip out both of your eyes.
01:16:50
Speaker
I do like the way that you're saying it. And so Thor rips out both of his eyes. The kid's like, I'm a real nasty boy, and I love watching nasty, gross murders rip out your rip out your other eye.
01:17:05
Speaker
i do think it is like weird how immediately Thor trusts this kid ghost. To be entirely fair, Matt, which I don't think you're doing, he's he's not just like, now do the other one.
01:17:20
Speaker
He's not like Michael PSA is telling Jeff Hardy to jump off a ladder, you know? he's like He's like, no, no, no. That is a sacrifice that has already been made.
01:17:32
Speaker
You need to make a sacrifice that your dad didn't make. That's unique to you, yeah. Yeah. that you you This is a thing that's already been done. You have to take it a step further.
01:17:43
Speaker
Which is, I think, better. It is interesting, right? it is interesting Yes. the the the The way he describes it is, there's this never-ending cycle of Ragnarok in Marvel Comics.
01:17:58
Speaker
Because Ragnarok has happened like six times in Marvel Comics by this point. Yes. And so, it's like, there's this never-ending cycle of Ragnarok.
01:18:08
Speaker
The gods were born to die, and they're going to die and come back over and over and over again. And the only way to break the cycle is by making a new sacrifice.
01:18:20
Speaker
So tear out your other eye. Yeah. And I do think there's like a really interesting metatextual thing here where, you know, like it is a nice little confluence of...
01:18:33
Speaker
A, the you know Ragnarok is prophesied, so the you know the Norse gods are doomed from their inception. Right.
01:18:44
Speaker
And then also the idea that like in in having Ragnarok repeat itself over and over, you are robbing any of their deaths of their glory. Right.
01:18:57
Speaker
And there can't be any nobility and sacrifice if it just keeps going, which is a narrative problem with superhero comics. Very true. Scourge's death is not as good as it would be if Scourge never came back.
01:19:12
Speaker
Yeah. um There's a bit where the the ghost kid says, One eye is nothing. Odin has already made that sacrifice. You cannot walk the path already taken. Repeating your father's de deed is an empty gesture. Empty.
01:19:24
Speaker
You know what you must do. which Do it, I'm nasty. do it You know what you gotta do, I'm nasty. but like It does feel weird that even with you getting immune in there, which I think are the indicators that this kid can be trusted to a degree, there's a whole character who's about tricking you and making you do things that he that he tries to convince you you should do, but he you shouldn't do.
01:19:57
Speaker
Like, how does Thor not even suspect for a second that this is Loki? Loki's not a ghost, Matt. He could be a ghost.
01:20:07
Speaker
He could take on all kinds of forms. Nah, man. Nah, not in this story, because he's the Joker. Because he's the Joker. I know, man. Ghost told me to do shit, I'd probably believe him.
01:20:21
Speaker
You're out here talking like ah like a ghost could show up and tell you to do some stuff, and you'd be like, no, hang on, are you my friend Chris? I'm just saying, a ghost could be a liar.
01:20:33
Speaker
That would be a ghost that would show up be like, hey, ah I'm going to use the company card to buy some stuff on Steam. i would know that was your ghost in a heartbeat. Yeah, that would be me.
01:20:45
Speaker
Thor number 84 has a very cool cover where Thor and Loki are fighting. Thor's about to smash Loki with Big Rock. Fuck him up, Thor. It's good. See, and look.
01:20:56
Speaker
Look at him. Can you see through him? No. He ain't a ghost. He's, you know... He's wearing green. Ghosts don't wear green. I actually probably wouldn't trust a ghost, because, you know, depending on how like how long ago that ghost was from...
01:21:14
Speaker
most go By the numbers, most ghosts are racist.
01:21:20
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, they just saw this kid die, so and he never exhibited signs of being racist, but... Yeah, I mean, that that that kid that ghost is from now. I'm just saying, if i met an unrelated ghost, like a lot of averages... This issue picks up right where the last one left off. Thor has ripped out both of his eyes, and the kid's like, you still haven't done enough.
01:21:43
Speaker
Remember how your dad hung himself for nine days? um you got You gotta to hang yourself ah so that you you have a revelation. And so Thor does that. Because Thor isn't trying to get the Odin power.
01:21:58
Speaker
He's trying to learn the magic that only Odin knew, which was the magic of runes. Yes, but he's also trying to get the Odin power back because for whatever reason he didn't have it.
01:22:09
Speaker
Yes, he is also trying to get the Odin power. So... ah he he remembers the magic of the runes, or he sees the magic of the runes. he That allows him to see through the veil of time.
01:22:21
Speaker
it um Because he used to be Donald black Blake, he can ah he knows the science of man. And then, um finally, he can see beyond quantum structure.
01:22:33
Speaker
See, I actually think that's really good. I like this page. The part where it's like, okay, what's different about Thor? Well... Thor is – like, Thor was human. Thor is yeah is of fantasy and of science.
01:22:51
Speaker
that's there's That's a key component of this. Yeah, I like that. He's not just a god. He's also a man. And thus, he can break the cycle of Ragnarok, ultimately.
01:23:02
Speaker
that's That's a good idea. but I think it could be expressed a little better, but it's a good idea. um I also just love the design of that page about him seeing all the different kind of pieces of the universe um from different aspects.
01:23:22
Speaker
But while he's hanging himself, he's like, all right, fuck this. I'm done. And he breaks the chain. And this was another thing where i was like, did I miss a page?
01:23:32
Speaker
Because he immediately goes to hell. Yeah, it does it does seem like there is a ah ah real missing. He is now an emaciated body crawling through hell, well where Hela, who is... No, that's a different guy.
01:23:49
Speaker
That's a different guy? That's a different guy who just looks like Thor. No, that's Thor. No, because Thor shows up. thor No, Thor... like And then on the next page, Odin is holding him, and he's got his eyes ripped out.
01:24:04
Speaker
That's Thor. Yeah, I guess that is Thor. Man, now I'm messed up. He's still got his 12-pack, but ah he's a lot thinner because he went to hell.
01:24:17
Speaker
And Hela, who's like wearing a real busty outfit. She got him out. so You ain't kidding. Look, it's Ragnarok.
01:24:31
Speaker
It's the end of the world. it's It's like going to the club on a Saturday. Yeah, you know, like, it's... She hasn't had a chance to wear this outfit yet. Might as well be now.
01:24:42
Speaker
No, so he's in Hell, and Hela's like, ah, your soul is mine now. And then Thor draws a rune on the ground, and that brings Odin's ghost to say, no, Hela, he's not yours. I've got to take him back. Because he knows about runes now.
01:24:59
Speaker
Yeah, because he knows about runes now. This all happens in two pages. It is so much... Or three pages, because one of them is a two-page spread. That's so much shit to just happen in that short period of time. Yeah, that is, I think, the ah part of the book that is the most... like Jarring? Jarring and disjointed.
01:25:20
Speaker
Like, the part of the story that is the most like, okay, wait, what is happening? Immediately, after Thor picks him up... Thor is then set in front of a group called Those Who Sit Above in Shadow.
01:25:36
Speaker
Which is this like neatly designed group in, like I guess I would call it like negative black and white. Yeah. That's what we should have called this podcast. Negative black white?
01:25:47
Speaker
No, Those Who Sit Above in Shadow. I mean, that is us, for sure. um And... What is discussed is that these are the gods who oversee the Norse gods and make the cycle of Ragnarok continue to happen. Yeah, these are, I don't know if it's revealed here or later or in another run, but this is like the original set of gods.
01:26:13
Speaker
This is like Utgard-Loki and Utgard-Thor. Right. who Who do come back to do come up in Immortal Thor. Yeah. Yeah. And I believe this is the first time they show up.
01:26:26
Speaker
Maybe. i i don't know. they They may have shown up before, but i hard to say. um But like they're like, ah you can't understand what we're doing and your fate is sealed.
01:26:40
Speaker
You can't change it. And Thor goes, no, I am going to change it. things are Things are different with me. Yeah, bet. Yeah, ah rip to you, but I'm different.
01:26:55
Speaker
So Thor goes back to Asgard, where he's like, this is where he says, I will spit in the face of those who sit above, those who mock us.
01:27:08
Speaker
um And then Mangog is there and he fights Mangog for a minute. He does fight Mangog for a minute. And that is also like kind of a jarring scene transition. oh this is one of This is not Emming's first comic as a writer.
01:27:22
Speaker
ah But it's it's definitely his first Marvel comic as a writer, I believe. And I think he had a co-writer on this. Maybe for just dialogue. ah But I think you can see... like There is a weakness here, and that is in like scene transitions.
01:27:42
Speaker
There's a pacing issue. There's a pacing issue, yeah. but but like I don't know if that's his fault or the fault of just like having to get all this done in the amount of pages that he has. i mean know I mean, here's the thing.
01:27:59
Speaker
he knew he was going to get six issues to end the book Thor, and he definitely knew that going in. So if it's too much to do, you've got to cut some stuff out.
01:28:11
Speaker
Yeah, there's a considerable number page number of pages in this with no dialogue at all. Yeah. and And no caption boxes or anything. And like, yeah I don't know, maybe we could have had a little bit there. to Which I do feel like is another very artist instinct to like let the art speak. and Absolutely. And to his credit, like yeah, the Andre DeVito art can speak for itself a lot.
01:28:36
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it it a lot of it does, but it's it's maybe a little too sparse. Yeah, in in some places, yeah. There's parts where there's too much dialogue.
01:28:48
Speaker
Like, I'm looking at this panel where Loki says, oh, please, you come here to destroy what I have rebuilt. I do not seek to destroy Asgard, but to rule it, to unify it. When I destroy those at Vanaheim, my rule will be complete and things set right.
01:29:01
Speaker
That's one speech balloon. Yeah, and and he talks about, like, I don't want to destroy Asgard, but rule it. Like, he says that phrase, like, five times over the next two issues. Also, he did destroy it already.
01:29:13
Speaker
So, like, what are you talking about? Yeah, but he built back better, Matt. Oh, he's got to build back better. um So anyway, he reveals that he's got an army. He sticks his army on Thor. But Thor's got runes now.
01:29:24
Speaker
Thor's got runes now. And he can summon the Midgard Serpent, which he does. With runes. With runes. then Turns out, runes can do anything, which I do kind of like.
01:29:38
Speaker
Well, one thing a rune can do is um pull someone's head off, which he does. um He pulls Loki's head off. He fucking... We didn't talk about when he was fighting Mangog, and he just like put his hand on Mangog, and he was like, you're done, and Mangog's head exploded.
01:29:54
Speaker
Yeah. It's like it was fucking Fist of the North Star, yeah. Yeah, no, it ah it and like Fist of the North Star, fucking owned.
01:30:08
Speaker
ah But yes, he he makes a rune, Thor makes a rune, and he pulls Loki's head off, but not but doesn't kill him. So there's Loki's body, and then there's Loki's head, which is still alive. Which is a classic Loki thing.
01:30:22
Speaker
Yes. To have his head cut off, but still be alive. and And then like the next couple pages are oddly talky. Thor's talking about how he's going to end the cycle, and Loki's like, how could you do that? That's nuts. What are you talking about?
01:30:36
Speaker
And Thor just keeps explaining. He keeps explaining, but he doesn't actually explain what the plan is, because he's like, yeah, I'm going to destroy everything. Yeah. The final issue of this story is Thor number 85.
01:30:51
Speaker
ah Cool cover, where it's just Thor's arm raising Mjolnir up. And then in the background is Sif, Loki, Hela, Surtur, and Odin.
01:31:04
Speaker
Like, as floating heads, mostly. ah And it's all red. it looks good. It's good. So... Thor and the ghost kid and Loki's head travel to – what is the name of Surtur's realm? Muspelheim.
01:31:24
Speaker
Muspelheim. That's where they go. And there's battle. that's actually Jotunheim because Loki gave Thor – or Loki gave Surtur Jotunheim, and he's like, now look at him. he just He's just fighting all the ice giants.
01:31:39
Speaker
Oh, yes. It is Jotunheim because there's – It's weird that you didn't think that would happen. there's ah There's a map that shows that they're going to Jotunheim. um But yeah, there's like a big battle going on between the Frost Giants and Surtur's forces.
01:31:57
Speaker
And so Thor and the Ghost Kid and Loki show up, and Surtur's like, ah, Thor, you've come here. and Now I can kill you. good that Finally, good thing you showed...
01:32:12
Speaker
And Thor's like, no.
01:32:15
Speaker
You're not going to kill me. I know about runes. Fuck off. yeah Fuck off, dude. I know about runes.
01:32:23
Speaker
Even though you killed my dad, I'm not going to kill you either. What you're going to do is you're going to reforge Mjolnir.
01:32:32
Speaker
And Serger's like, I don't know about that. If I reforge Mjolnir, you'll kill me with it. And Thor's like, i I give you my word.
01:32:42
Speaker
I won't do that. Just reforge Mjolnir and we'll be good here. And Surtur's like, fuck, okay. So he reforges Mjolnir and Thor goes, alright, I'm not going to kill you.
01:32:59
Speaker
Just bring your armies to to Asgard and and we'll so we'll have it out there. Just fuck it all up, man. And Surtur goes, great.
01:33:11
Speaker
And so they start marching to Asgard, and then one page later, two-page spread, big battle in Asgard with Surtur and everybody fighting all of Surtur's forces, and the art rules. It whips ass. It's so good.
01:33:27
Speaker
It's fucking incredible. Yeah. Again, I like this story, and I think it is written in an interesting way. it is one of those things where, like... Boy, the art is so good that it could fool you into thinking that it's better than it is. Again, I don't think that's the case.
01:33:46
Speaker
It whips. The art is fucking rad. ah In the middle of that battle, which Beta Ray Bill is fighting in, Thor sends Beta Ray Bill away.
01:34:00
Speaker
And Thor's like, you can't be here, dog. This this is this is
01:34:07
Speaker
Asgard business. You gotta go back to your home. ah Just remember us. Hey man, tell some nice stories about me. Yeah. And Beta Rebill's like, damn, I will write Thor for Marvel Comics.
01:34:21
Speaker
Yeah. um Then Fenris starts eating the cosmos. Because that's part of the Ragnarok story too.
01:34:32
Speaker
And, ah but Thor's like, I gotta do one last thing. And he goes back to the World Tree. He goes back to Yggdrasil. Well, he goes to the the the... Specifically where the Fates are.
01:34:46
Speaker
yeah And he's like... Hey, Fates. ah By the way, this page? Also beautiful. so yeah like With Nithog...
01:34:58
Speaker
like dead in the roots and the the tapestry going up that's got like shit from recent issues of Thor. like That is good shit. i I appreciate the stories like the clear research into Norse mythology that went into this.
01:35:21
Speaker
yeah But if you didn't know about this stuff, you would have no idea what was happening here. that's That's true. that this is a ah This story is a little bit FHO.
01:35:34
Speaker
it's Yes. FHO specifically for heads who know some more Norse mythology. because like There's ah that thing where Fenris starts just like eating the sun or whatever.
01:35:46
Speaker
um And Thor's like, ah, that's Fenris doing what he's supposed to. but Unless you knew. mean. You'd be like, what? It seems pretty obvious to me, Matt. He goes, oh, that's Fenris eating in the sun. All right.
01:36:01
Speaker
Yeah. Thor's like, yeah, ah the tapestry you're making that looks like a straight line, it's just a big circle. Yeah, they're like, oh, we've you know we've already woven the tapestry. You can't change shit once it's in the in in the tapestry.
01:36:19
Speaker
And then Thor's like, Yeah, what if I look behind the tapestry and see that where that thread's coming from is actually the top? yeah So it's just a big circle. And they're like, oh shit, he figured it out.
01:36:34
Speaker
And he cuts it. He cuts the thread. And that that, I think, is the most like mythological piece of the story, is that like this whole thing is contingent on...
01:36:45
Speaker
But then Thor looked behind the tapestry. Right. Behind the loom and saw where the thread was coming from. And I like that a lot. And again, unless you know about the fates and their loom and the tapestry that represents the events of Norse mythology, you might be reading this and go, what the fuck?
01:37:10
Speaker
ah But nonetheless, he he holds up his hammer brings it down, smashes the the the thread going to the loom.
01:37:22
Speaker
The ones who sit above are like watching this and you're like they're like, you better not. You better not.
01:37:33
Speaker
Then he smashes it. that's that's like That's kind of like saying the little boy ghost was like, I'm nasty, cut your eye out, but like you're not wrong. Because he goes to smash it, and they're like, okay, okay, okay.
01:37:46
Speaker
That would end the cycle permanently, and we would die. So the you called our bluff. You won. but Well, they're like, hey, you you could be you could be one of us.
01:37:58
Speaker
You could come sit in the big chair. but Why don't you come sit in the big chair? Yeah, look, hey, you did it. You won. like yeah We were playing this weird game. ah You did it.
01:38:11
Speaker
You called our bluff. You can be a big boy now. You can be big Thor. Oh, I think this is worth mentioning. So Thor never gets his eyes back.
01:38:22
Speaker
he's He's still missing both of his eyes. Yeah. But ever since he learned how to do runes... his eyes have been replaced by like this glowing blue light.
01:38:37
Speaker
And, and he can see because he's got Hugen and Mugen. Right. Which is also pretty fun, but yeah, he's got, he got rune eyes now. Yeah. So like there's, there's some explanation of Hugen and Mugen being his eyes now, like seeing for him.
01:38:55
Speaker
But I feel like that stuff could have been a little clearer too. Um, Anyway, the World Tree implodes. It collapses in on itself. Okay, don't smash the thing. Look, we know that you're willing to smash the thing.
01:39:12
Speaker
but but you don't have to. You win. You can be one of us now. And Thor's like, actually, smash the thing. Yeah. And again, the World Tree collapses in on itself and becomes like a singularity.
01:39:28
Speaker
And there's some some narration about those who sit above. like they're They're gone now. ah The cycle of Ragnarok is over. Because Ragnarok is what they they lived off of. They fed off of the cycle of Ragnarok.
01:39:49
Speaker
yeah and And now that's over, and so they're gone. And you've returned honor to your people. Their deaths mean something now. um And then there's a big two-page spread of Thor and like all of the Thor characters, but also like Spider-Man and Galactus and fucking Thanos.
01:40:15
Speaker
Matt, i don't know what to tell you. All those people are in Thor. All those people are in Thor, that's true. Silver Surfer, he's in Thor. Juggernaut, he's in Thor. Eric Masterson, aka Thunderstrike.
01:40:26
Speaker
Jake Olsen. Those are all characters in Thor's life, Matt. Also, dr Dr. Blake is there. Don Blake is there. Erishim the Judge.
01:40:38
Speaker
A lot of these are characters who appeared in the Jurgens run in particular. Yeah, Matt, fucking, um what's his name from the Dark Gods is in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paracus.
01:40:48
Speaker
Paracus. Thor girl? She's in there? The Destroyer? Scarlet Witch scarlet wi is there. Yeah, Thor girl is there. Yeah, I mean, Matt, those are all Thor characters, because they're all characters in Thor.
01:40:59
Speaker
It's a really good two-page spread. Yeah. And I like that, because it does unify this big mythological, like, you know, obviously Beta Ray Bill, Captain America, and Iron Man are in this story, but, you know, Thor keeps being like, nah, this is like Asgard stuff. Like, this is this is Thor business. And then it's like, at the end of it, it's like,
01:41:16
Speaker
Yeah, but like fucking Spider-Man's Thor business too, you know? Malekith wasn't in this, but he's Thor business. Malekith's Thor business all day long, man.
01:41:28
Speaker
just ah Twice on Thursday. Let's see, Juggernaut, Silver Surfer. Scourge is in there. Scourge's in there? Oh, there's Magni. There's Magni from... Yeah, there he is.
01:41:40
Speaker
A few issues ago. From The Reigning. Yeah. ah Carnilla has hair that puts Sif's big hair to shame.
01:41:52
Speaker
ah And the Enchantress has some some big ol' hair, too. yeah love But yeah, Carnilla's big hair is out of control. Carnilla's hair is... It's beyond big.
01:42:04
Speaker
Carnilla's hair is godly. I like how tiny ah fucking Tioffi is. yeah he's He's just a little tiny guy. He's a little guy. Him and ah Valkyrie are are ah tiny little guys.
01:42:18
Speaker
yeah um I really like the page spread. I think it's very cool. I think it looks good. Everybody looks fucking dope as hell, too. Even Jake Olsen. um it like It's funny how like a lot of the characters are kind of like knowingly looking to the right, while other characters just kind of like clearly don't know where to look.
01:42:38
Speaker
Hela's looking directly at the reader. Which is a little disconcerting. So is Spider-Man. Spider-Man is also looking directly at the reader. Spider-Man's like, hey, can you believe I'm here? I'm on Silver Surfer's board. That's wild.
01:42:51
Speaker
The thrust of the narration on that page is like, well, that's the end of Thor.
01:43:00
Speaker
There will never be another Thor comic, because it ended. The Norse gods have fought their final battle. ah Which, like, I get it. i mean...
01:43:11
Speaker
It's trying to do that like ending thing, because this is the end of the volume. Never the end! Never the end. And then we get this one last page of Thor looking like Eternity, where he's like mixed in with a starfield. Mm-hmm.
01:43:30
Speaker
And he's like, ah. Also a beautiful page. it's It looks great, yeah. um But essentially he just says, like, ah, now I finally get to rest.
01:43:42
Speaker
I mean, he says it in more words than that, but that's yeah essentially what he says. He says, I shall close my eyes and breathe deep the slumber of gods. For a while, at least. So it is a very ah very highfalutin, fairy tale-ish, never the end.
01:43:59
Speaker
Yes. Now, i think, I'm quite certain that the next Thor volume is the JMS run on Thor, correct? Correct, yes.
01:44:15
Speaker
And I don't think it does jack shit with any of this. It it does a little. Because what happens is Thor has to go around and like bring people back yeah Because everybody is dead.
01:44:31
Speaker
Well, I guess that's the explanation of... Oh, the first page okay the first page does directly reference it. Yeah. So there is there is that that. And there is the idea that like now that this cycle of Ragnarok has ended, they do finally get to live...
01:44:49
Speaker
a life that is finite and will end and the cycle will break. And so this is the one that really matters. This is the one that counts. I believe Ragnarok has happened twice since then.
01:45:02
Speaker
yeah um and now And now it's just like, Loki's like, yeah, man, it's a fucking cycle. It happens. So yeah, that that's the explanation for Asgard appearing in Broxton, Oklahoma. Yeah. ah That's...
01:45:17
Speaker
ah Thor and all the Asgardians were summoned back ah in the JMS run. But I don't know. I don't have a lot of love for that JMS run, I gotta say. No, it's bad.
01:45:28
Speaker
It's quite bad. But it does, to its credit, it doesn't do a lot with this, but it it does address it and build up from it. And I know Fraction's stuff did more of it.
01:45:41
Speaker
yeah Because Fraction's stuff was all about like Scourge not wanting to come back because he's like, no, no, no. like Mine counted. like The thing I did was for real. yeah Going back over it, I think I have a better... I think I like this story more than I did when I was reading rereading it earlier today.
01:46:04
Speaker
ah i still think there's a some major pacing issues in this. i would agree. um It is... Again, I think the experience of reading it all as one piece is very different from the experience of reading it as the book came out, which I'm almost certain was the last time I did this.
01:46:23
Speaker
But yeah, there are some jarring mid-issue transitions that are just weird. Yeah.
01:46:36
Speaker
And i would I would always prefer a book to do too much than do not enough. Sure. But I would also prefer that a book did the right amount of stuff.
01:46:47
Speaker
it it I admire trying to do too much, but I also – there are parts where it's too quiet, and there's parts where it's too loquacious. yeah And it could do it could do a better job of kind of like spreading it out – to a more kind of even amount of dialogue and action versus talking and that sort of thing.
01:47:14
Speaker
Um, and also there are just parts of this where I would call myself ah an experienced comics reader, um, where I was just like, what is happening?
01:47:26
Speaker
Um, like Matt, I don't think anyone can take away from you. I'll fight them if they say you're not an experienced comic book reader.
01:47:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'd have a good amount of comic book reading experience. I do think the stuff with the Odin power...
01:47:45
Speaker
could have been completely avoided just by not saying that. And just being like, yeah, but Odin also knew about runes, which is like some shit other people just don't know about because nobody else hung over the well of Mimir for nine days.
01:47:58
Speaker
I mean, i I think that's in there because it's trying to sidestep the idea of, well, if Thor is the king still, then he should have the Odin power and then Loki shouldn't be able to just like roll in and do this. Yeah.
01:48:15
Speaker
it's it's It's a way to depower Thor so that Loki can like more effectively take over and cause all kinds of mayhem. um But i it I think it does muddy the waters.
01:48:27
Speaker
um You know, it feels like a Marvel the End story. Very much so, yes. But one that is also continuity. But only kind of in continuity. But only kind of in continuity.
01:48:40
Speaker
Because like what's weird about this is that this really happened to Captain America and Iron Man. Sure did. And Beta Ray Bill. Yeah. I mean, it really happened to Thor, but um it does it it feels like it should be an out-of-continuity story, weirdly enough. yeah yeah um My biggest complaint about it is what I said right at the beginning. is like how like Sometimes you get this version of Loki who's a little bit more evolved than just, ha ha, I'm the bad guy.
01:49:17
Speaker
And so it's, it's kind of the Johnny storm problem. Like it's, it's the villain version of the Johnny storm problem where like they're constantly just reverting to how they were in 1963, you know?
01:49:33
Speaker
Yeah. ah And I kind of like it when characters retain the growth and change that they've had over the years. And I feel like Loki has done that more recently.
01:49:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yeah. Loki 2025 is a completely different character from Loki 2005. Yeah. yeah Like, this, I think, is is much more in tune with how Loki used to be.
01:50:01
Speaker
like even Like, even though it is, I will agree with you that it is a simplified version of Loki. like Like Magneto, for very different reasons, Loki is a character who can't be like this again.
01:50:16
Speaker
Yeah. I do think that Loki had evolved and changed a bit, even within the Jurgis. And that seems to all be gone here, you know? um But whatever the case, um it is interesting to read this in contrast to the Jurgis run, which I think does a better job of explaining itself.
01:50:42
Speaker
But also has some stuff in it that makes no fucking sense. Yeah. um It's a very different approach to storytelling.
01:50:53
Speaker
So, I don't know. It's it's curious. I'm not upset that we did this whole reread. No, I think we would have... We rarely have the chance to read an entire run of comics start to finish.
01:51:08
Speaker
Yeah. Like, is this an S-tier run
Reflection on the Comic Run
01:51:12
Speaker
of comics? No, it's not. It's pretty mid. It's uneven. And uneven.
01:51:19
Speaker
But there are parts of it that are great. Yeah. I feel like the Groonies, when it's on, it's fucking on, dude. Yeah, dude. And the rest of it is at least readable.
01:51:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. The Groonies had some low points. I think the Groonies was more overall consistently good. Yeah, definitely. This this run, and there's some real like weird starts and stops in here.
01:51:49
Speaker
But i think it was for me, it was fun to go back and read a run that I had good memories of, and what I can only describe as nostalgia for. Oh, absolutely, yeah.
01:52:05
Speaker
And kind of flake give myself a reality check on it a little bit. But also enjoy the parts that I really enjoyed the first time around. yeah Again. yeah i think you know it's uneven.
01:52:18
Speaker
I think its highs are not as high as as the Groonies. you know To compare it to the only other thing that we've sat down and read all of. Thor 25 is not as good as Cap 350. True. you know but it's Thor pretty fucking good.
01:52:34
Speaker
It's a really good single issue, yeah. Yeah. it Unfortunately, like yeah it never got to those heights again. after Just like we talked about cap three but you know the cap run never gets above 350.
01:52:50
Speaker
three fifty This run never gets above 25. Yeah. ah so But by and large, ah not ah not a bad read.
01:53:01
Speaker
ah the the big The worst thing I can say about Dan Juergen's run on Thor as a writer is that it very rarely focuses on the thing I want it to focus on.
01:53:14
Speaker
When I'm like, no, Thor Girl's really interesting. Tell me more about Thor Girl. Well, and and also, like, ah you know, the problem we've talked and talked about is you keep saying Thor's a tyrant, but you're not showing it.
01:53:28
Speaker
Yeah, no, Thor is demonstrably right about all of this. Yeah. Like, if you're gonna if you get a make Thor into a tyrant, And have people say he's a tyrant. You gotta show the ways that he is doing that.
01:53:42
Speaker
and And the way he's causing harm. And not just doing good in a way people kinda don't like. Yeah. You know? Anyway, that's it for the Jurgies. We're done, everybody.
01:53:56
Speaker
Thanks for sticking with us through the whole thing. That means it's time for Hick Mania. Hickmania is coming up next. We have got to map out where to start with that. He's American
01:54:17
Speaker
Are we going to start with FF? Yeah, man. I think we do it all. Damn, that's going to take a long time.
01:54:28
Speaker
I don't know if we have to do S.H.I.E.L.D., but I think we should start with FF. Okay, alright. Hickmania is coming. I don't want Hickmania to run mild.
01:54:40
Speaker
No, it's got to run wild. that's It's got to run wild, baby. In the meantime, um between now and Hickmania... You can email us at our email address, which is warrocketpodcast at gmail.com. That's where you can send every story ever lists or one to ten of swords submissions or let us know if you want to sponsor the show or drop us a line about any old other thing that you want to get in touch with us about.
01:55:09
Speaker
We're on bluesky at warrocketajax.com. We're on Tumblr at warrocketpodcast.tumblr.com.
01:55:17
Speaker
We have a Discord that you have to be invited to be a member of to join, but if you ask us nicely for an invitation to the Discord, we will get you one, and you can join over there. So hit us up for an invitation to the Discord if you want to join.
01:55:32
Speaker
Our website is warrocketajax.com. It has every every episode of the show we've ever done. warrocketwiki.com is the fan-run repository of all the information you could want or need about this program.
01:55:45
Speaker
Warrock and Ajax. Go look at all the good info there. And the good hat. The good hat's there. If you want to find me and my stuff, go to mattdwilson.net. It's where you can find links to my comics, my books, my other podcasts, and my social medias.
01:56:00
Speaker
Chris, where can everybody find you? Everybody can find me by going to the-isb.com. That is my website. It has links to everything that I do here and there around ah the internet. ah Things you can buy. Things you can read.
01:56:17
Speaker
Sorry, I did get distracted looking up American Made on YouTube. Maybe you can find that there. Maybe I'll put it up there as a secret. F-H-O.
01:56:33
Speaker
Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll be back next week with another episode. That's right, everybody. I think maybe it's time for us to ah sharpen things up around here, man. Time will tell.
01:56:44
Speaker
Time will tell.
01:56:47
Speaker
Until then, folks, do not forget, Black Lives Matter. Trans rights are human rights. As are abortion rights. Drag is not a crime. Diversity is not the problem. Cops aren't your friends. Abolish ICE.
01:57:00
Speaker
And we love you. We love you. Yeah!