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Every Story Ever: April 2025
1.3k Plays17 days ago
Time to rank more comic book stories on this month's special, including some Punisher, some Spider-Man and some Elseworlds!
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcasting Setup
00:00:00
Speaker
This show is recorded using Zencaster. If you are a podcaster, or you want to be a podcaster, and you want to be able to record remotely, you can do so using Zencaster.
00:00:12
Speaker
They also have hosting options, and you can let them know that we sent you. Follow the link in our show notes, or in the episode description, and sign up for an account on Zencaster now to start recording your own podcast.
Every Story Ever List Introduction
00:00:28
Speaker
Clientist.
00:00:35
Speaker
We have a list on our website, warrockandajax.com, called Every Story Ever. What we're doing is we're taking lists from our listeners of three comic book stories, and then we are placing those stories on the list from best to worst comic book stories of all time Hello everybody and welcome to the War Rocket Ajax Every Story Ever special for April 2025.
00:01:10
Speaker
My name is Matt Wilson. Chris Sims is here with me as always to rank comic book stories. Sure am. Say hi Chris, thank you. yeah i know that I know how this works. I know this bit that we've been doing for 12 years.
00:01:27
Speaker
twelve years
00:01:30
Speaker
Later your time. Isn't it something? You know how this works, I'm sure, if you're listening to this. If you've never listened to one of these specials before, you heard me some number of years ago explaining how it all works in the opening theme.
Ranking Process and Current Status
00:01:47
Speaker
But we we take your suggestions, your submissions of comic book stories. Used to be comic strips. Not anymore. Or at least... Not now.
00:01:58
Speaker
Not for now. Not for now. I mean, look, eventually we will have to rank every piece of sequential art that exists. Correct. But for now, we are just doing comic books.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah. And ah we'll we'll then put the stories that you submit on a big old list from best to worst of every comic book story ever made.
00:02:24
Speaker
Currently, we have 1,602 stories on the Every Story Ever list. Chris, would you like to quickly go over the status of the list?
00:02:38
Speaker
Sure, Matt. ah Starting at the bottom... We've got The Triumvirate of Terror. yeah pretty ah We've got Doomsday Clock at 1600, Holy Terror at 1601, and Identity Crisis at 1602. The bottom of the list where it has been since day one.
00:02:57
Speaker
At the top, we have The the Trinity of Triumphs. We have Pluto by Naoki Urasawa and Osama Tizuka. ah We have Batman Year One by Frank Miller and Dave Mezichelie.
00:03:07
Speaker
And we have Spider-Man If This Be My Destiny slash the final chapter, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. And right at our midpoint, numbers 801 and 802, to give you an idea of where the where the midpoint of the list sits, Chilling Adventures of Sabrina No. 7, which is the origin of Salem the Cat.
00:03:29
Speaker
And Blades and Lasers by Ben Mara.
00:03:33
Speaker
Buddy, I don't know what is more perfectly the middle of the list than that. It could not be more the middle of this list. Yes, which we should reiterate, as we have reiterated many times, is a top-heavy list.
00:03:48
Speaker
A top-heavy list, and also like an objectively true and correct one. Yes, yes. We merely chip away at the marble, as we have always said. We are merely arbiters.
00:04:00
Speaker
That is true.
Weekend Activities Chat
00:04:02
Speaker
Chris, would do you like to get would you like to get started? We have to kick us off a list from Robert Hedley. I mean, Matt, we could get started, but I mean, how are you? I'm okay. How are you? We're recording this on a Monday, and I haven't talked to you, I think, all weekend.
00:04:20
Speaker
I had a very busy weekend. had a very busy weekend ah where i performed improv and had people come cut down a tree.
00:04:32
Speaker
and oh yeah yeah, I know all about your tree troubles. I paid them a lot of money for that. ah But yeah, busy weekend. How are you? How was your weekend? ah Just fine.
00:04:44
Speaker
nice it Nice and easy. ah ah Getting ready to to to go on a little road trip that our listeners can hear about soon.
00:04:55
Speaker
That's right. in the future right they They will hear about that very shortly. ah All right. Here's our our kickoff from Robert Headley.
Spider-Man Storylines and Analysis
00:05:03
Speaker
Robert sent us two lists, actually. Okay. One is and a Spider-Man list, and one is a Fantastic Four list.
00:05:13
Speaker
What um is your pleasure? I mean, I'll tell you, we are more likely to have read the Spider-Man list. I think we've probably read these... Fantastic Four stories.
00:05:26
Speaker
ah One is already on the list. One of the Fantastic Four stories is already on the list. mean so what you're asking me is, do I want to do less work at this, which is technically work for me?
00:05:40
Speaker
Well, I thought we had ranked one of the stories, but actually I'm not finding it. Let's do Spider-Man. I want to talk about Spider-Man. I like that guy. All right. All right. Let's talk about Spider-Man.
00:05:50
Speaker
um The first one on Robert's list is Amazing Spider-Man numbers 361 to 363, which I do not know by number, so I will have to look up what that story is.
00:06:05
Speaker
Although I can almost certainly... Oh, it's the debut of Carnage. Sucks. Matt. Matt. Matt, that's so dismissive.
00:06:19
Speaker
Savage Genesis is the title of that story. Okay, that's an X-Men title. Spider-Man can't have that. you're saying instantly, trash. You know, it's... It is what it It's...
00:06:36
Speaker
trash yeah you know
00:06:42
Speaker
it is what it is it's it' It's Carnage before he really fully and truly becomes Carnage. I mean, he is. But... i don't know. like it It's not what I come to Spider-Man for. I'll i'll say that.
00:07:00
Speaker
Well, mean, I will say, this is David Michelinie. Yeah. And Mark Bagley. Yeah. Who are two guys that you generally are positive on. i I go hot and cold on Michelinie.
00:07:14
Speaker
And i go I go hot and cold on Bagley. if um I mean, this, weirdly enough, is not Mark Bagley's best work. Like, this is kind of prime Bagley era, and it's very weird that, like, you can look at Peter Parker in this, and he does, in fact, look like eight ten years older version of Ultimate Peter Parker.
00:07:34
Speaker
ah But it's not his best. it's Yes, and it's not my fave story. It's you know it's fine. i I don't know that I can totally objectively rate this story.
00:07:51
Speaker
um it It is funny that Peter's got bad hair in this one, too. like Regular continuity Peter has bad hair here.
00:08:01
Speaker
He's got like... He has a little bit of a mullet, but only in some panels. But only in some panels. That's the weirdest thing about it. um it's like the he It's like the back of his hair, it's like he's growing out the top of the back of his hair. And so like it's not longer.
00:08:23
Speaker
like he cuts it off at the you know when it gets to the to his neck. ah But then... like The long part goes in different directions. it's very weird. It's very weird. ah This is the origin of the Carnage Rules ah graffiti?
00:08:40
Speaker
Yeah, which Cletus Kasady did in his own blood. Which returns in Maximum Carnage. ah Just FYI.
00:08:51
Speaker
yeah i Speaking of things that return in Maximum Carnage, I'm
Carnage Storyline Critique
00:08:54
Speaker
pretty sure the Putter There partner panel from Maximum Carnage the video game Is in Spider-Man 362.
00:09:03
Speaker
Is from this, not from Maximum Carnage, the comic, yeah. ah
00:09:11
Speaker
um no I don't know. i don't it's i hate Carnage like you do, but also, yeah, it's not that great. It's worse than Maximum Carnage, which is saying something. Yeah, I don't...
00:09:24
Speaker
I like the way Mark Bagley draws Venom. like And I guess this was just how Venom looked back then, but like Venom got that kind of weird snake mouth. Uh-huh. Yeah. and don't I don't care for that.
00:09:36
Speaker
It also is the start. I forgot that at the end of this, you get the start of the ah Peter and Peter's parents are alive story.
00:09:49
Speaker
the The one where they turned out to be robots? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's the start of that story. I like how whenever anybody hits Venom or Carnage with... like you know They're vulnerable to Sonics and Fire. Matt, I know you know that. ah tell As does everyone. We all know this. We all know this. It's a common phrase that makes sense to everyone if you say that someone is vulnerable to Sonics and Fire.
00:10:17
Speaker
they ah Both of them lose their symbiotes here... Um, because of, because the subway is loud. I mean, they lose them again in the last part of the story. Cause they go to like, uh, they go to a rock venue. Oh, that's right.
00:10:37
Speaker
Peter just cranks up the, that's right. that the The subway part is before that. And like carnage lands on the third rail.
00:10:49
Speaker
And I think, uh, both Spider-Man and Venom think think that's going to take down Carnage, but it doesn't work. You'd think Venom would know better.
00:11:01
Speaker
Venom should know.
00:11:04
Speaker
but I do like that the the kind of like point of this entire story is that um the Fantastic Four show up and beat the shit out of Carnage and Venom in like five seconds. yeah And it's like, ah you damn Spider-Man.
00:11:19
Speaker
like what are you Why are you even here, bro? Well, Reed Richards has like an anti-venom gun. but Yeah, man. It's his sonic gun.
00:11:32
Speaker
But like this is like the epitome, to me, of comics of this era. Reed Richards having a gun? but Not just having a gun, but having like specifically a gun that ends the story.
Spider-Man's Parents Story Arc
00:11:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:49
Speaker
Where it's like, oh, we don't actually care about plot at all. um We just want to have draw what we shit we think is cool and have excuses to draw shit we think is cool. And like however the story ends is whatever.
00:12:08
Speaker
you know well What I was getting at when I was about being vulnerable to Sonics and Fire is that like you do get to see Cletus Kasady buck-ass naked if you want. if If that's what you're into.
00:12:22
Speaker
I mean, you get you get Eddie Brock, too, but but also Cletus Kasady. You know, Woody Harrelson was, honestly, Woody Harrelson was a pretty good choice for Cletus Kasady.
00:12:35
Speaker
Walton Goggins would have been a better one. Put Walton Goggins in a red wig. Yeah, man. It would have been pretty good. I i i agree. it would have been pretty good.
00:12:48
Speaker
ah but was he should He should have played The Flame.
00:12:55
Speaker
Spoilers for the video game Spider-Man 2. so man that's point right too that video game is That video game is out on on PC now. It's fine. You can spoil it. Alright.
00:13:07
Speaker
Where's Maximum Carnage on the list?
00:13:11
Speaker
Maximum Carnage is at 1341. It's below that.
00:13:16
Speaker
um Is it worse than Venom Lethal Protector? i would say yes. Probably. Honestly, I think Venom Lethal Protector isn't as bad as we have probably made it out to be It's not good.
00:13:29
Speaker
no it's not good. no it's bad, Matt. It's just not as bad. like You hate it. I mean, i don't hate it as much as I hate other stuff, ah but it's... Yeah, I didn't think you hated it as much as you hated, say, racism.
00:13:46
Speaker
But it's objectively bad. bit Lethal Protector. ah Let's see. Spider-Man Changes, which is the story that's not the other. well that's it That story's worse than this, come on.
00:13:58
Speaker
okay Okay, yes. Let's see. don Don't be... Be so for real right now, Matt. I would say this is not worse than Earth-X.
00:14:10
Speaker
Or not better than Earth-X. It's not better than Earth-X. It's definitely not better than Earth-X, yeah. Which we have at 1381. Battle Scars we have at 1382. I would put this above that.
00:14:23
Speaker
i mean, look.
00:14:27
Speaker
it's That one's also not good, so... That would make this the new number 1382, which I think is fine. Which I think is perfectly acceptable. I think that's perfectly acceptable ranking for the first appearance of Carnage.
00:14:41
Speaker
All right. Amazing Spider-Man numbers 361 to Yes, 1382. 1382. three sixty three but that's only three thirteen and sixty two you said
00:14:55
Speaker
ah yes thirteen eighty two thirteen eighty s eighty two
00:15:02
Speaker
And I'm putting in parentheses, first carnage.
00:15:07
Speaker
All right. Next. And don't don't forget the O. First. Is it first and O? It's first and O, man.
00:15:17
Speaker
Okay.
Ranking of Amazing Spider-Man 266
00:15:18
Speaker
First and O. They at least talk about it. Yeah. It's not the first Cletus Kasady, but it is the first carnage. That's true. So you would count those separately.
00:15:32
Speaker
First, but wait, first Cletus Kasady, First First Cletus Kasady and First Carnage, you would count separately. I think Wizard Magazine would do that. Hmm.
00:15:44
Speaker
All right, next up on... What year did this come out? ah It came out 1992. Boy, it did.
00:15:56
Speaker
boy it sure did It is, it is the like I said, the epitome of a comic from 1992.
00:16:05
Speaker
Like, in every imaginable way. Alright. Next up is Amazing Spider-Man number 266. Alright. Which is from much earlier. It is from... As is the nature of numbers?
00:16:22
Speaker
Yes, it was from 1985 by Peter David and Sal Basima.
00:16:29
Speaker
Oh, boy, that's Frogman vs. Toad, Matt. This is Frogman vs. Toad, yeah. And you know I've not read this.
00:16:38
Speaker
know, it is... It's fun. Like... You know love the silly...
00:16:47
Speaker
it's pretty fun like
00:16:53
Speaker
you know i love the silly Spider-Man stories. Uh-huh. Like, I love the B and B, C and D list Spider-Man villains.
00:17:04
Speaker
Yeah. And so, if you if if you're doing a story where it's Frogman versus Toad, like, you gotta really work to make me ah make me not like you. um this This is also with a story that features the spectacular Spider-Kid.
00:17:27
Speaker
um Who had those ah dr Octopus arms and glasses. If you remember you remember Spectacular Spider Kid. ah That's Ollie Osnick.
00:17:42
Speaker
it's It's a fun issue. It's like... I would not, like, say, like, it's a must-read or anything. You know, Matt, it's funny. When you said, like, you gotta work really hard to not make me like ya, I was expecting you to say, but boy, do Peter David and Savi Sema pull it off.
00:17:58
Speaker
No, it's... Because they sure do with me.
00:18:03
Speaker
You mean, like, in general? I mean, ah in this story, specifically, like, it's it's... You know, it's a real Peter David comic. There's a real funny couple panels where, uh,
00:18:15
Speaker
Where Peter imagines the Toad wearing Black Cat's costume and looks sad about it.
00:18:22
Speaker
I mean, yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, look, I'm not trying to say Peter Dave was the only person making that joke in 1985.
00:18:31
Speaker
But, you know. Doesn't help. ah There's a pretty funny Kermit the Frog joke in here. Is there? it's i mean is there a Kermit the Frog joke?
00:18:44
Speaker
There is a Kermit the Frog joke. Yes. And is it funny? Okay.
00:18:51
Speaker
it's i like I remember liking it when I first read it. Which was in 1987? No, it was later. But yeah, I mean... no it was later but ah but yeah i mean it I like it because it's a thing that reminds Peter of Frog and Toad.
00:19:11
Speaker
And so he's got to like go deal with it. He's like, oh, fine, I'll deal with it. The thing where he imagines Toad in Black Cat's costume is objectively terrible.
00:19:25
Speaker
Yeah. but That I have to agree with. Yeah. um
00:19:33
Speaker
I don't know. It's... it's a This is a story I would ultimately call harmless.
00:19:45
Speaker
I also... Look, i it's hard for me to hate any story that has Spider-Man and... so ah fighting some goobers, you know?
00:19:59
Speaker
or are having to deal with some goobers. And at the end, Toad, Frog, and Spider-Kid all leave and call themselves misfits as they leave.
00:20:12
Speaker
so Toad also steps in dog shit. Yeah. um they They have some some potential names for the teams that include the All-Wiener Squad. Uh-huh.
00:20:22
Speaker
The Oi Team. Did you say the third one? Okay, the third one is not the best in hindsight. Yeah.
00:20:34
Speaker
ah But the Oi Squad is good. Or Oi Team. The Oi Team. i There should be a team called the Oi Team right now.
00:20:45
Speaker
okay um Okay. don't know, man. i'm um I'm negative on this one. but But I... but its This is all you, buddy.
00:20:58
Speaker
Okay. I could put it pretty low. I could put it pretty low.
00:21:06
Speaker
It's weird how many comics Toad has been
00:21:14
Speaker
I mean... You know, if you need a comedy character, I guess. I mean, is he a comedy character, though? I mean, I guess he kind of is, but Toad's like JTG.
00:21:28
Speaker
guess over time he became less of a comedy character. That's that's true. mean, I feel like he goes back and forth. But, man, what are you doing here, Toad?
00:21:42
Speaker
Why are you still here? it's It's interesting. they made They tried to make him a serious character in the X-Men movie, which is very weird.
00:21:54
Speaker
yeah But at least we got that great line out of it. Yeah, at least we got that perfect line that was obviously ghostwritten by ah a guy who sucks. ah In a punch-up session.
00:22:09
Speaker
um and and I think this one's worse than Heart of Hush, but better than Hush Money. Where would that put it? Between 1488 and 1492. Okay.
00:22:21
Speaker
okay
00:22:25
Speaker
what what what was it What was Hush Money about? Hush Money was the the book about how there was a character named Abuse.
00:22:34
Speaker
Oh, no. Yeah, who was and a kid who had been abused, and then he got jacked up on Venom. I don't remember that story at all. Yeah, you probably didn't read it.
00:22:47
Speaker
I probably didn't, yeah. ah Well, it's it's equally as bad... ah you know No, it's above Banjo.
00:22:58
Speaker
Are you out of your and mind? It's above the spectacular Spider-Man story Banjo. That is I thought you hated that story.
00:23:09
Speaker
don't like it. It's not. it's Again, it's not good. But I mean, it's, you know, it's something. i i thought you found that story to insulting.
00:23:25
Speaker
To Appalachian ah ah to to the Appalachian people of the world? Of the Appalachian Mountains, I guess? Yeah.
00:23:36
Speaker
I mean, yeah, it is. I'm going to say it's better than Banjo.
00:23:43
Speaker
I could put it below Ranthanagar War, so it'll be the new number 1491. Yeah, it's it's it's worse than Ranthanagar War, for sure. Okay, so Amazing Spider-Man 266...
00:23:59
Speaker
ah what is that story actually called? I'm just going to put it in parentheses. That's pun title called, like, Jump for My Love or Spring is in the Air. Great.
00:24:09
Speaker
That's way too long. Great, Pete. That is such a long title. Good
00:24:17
Speaker
one, Spider-Man is in two different costumes in this, by the way. Uh-huh. yeah He talks about how the black costume gets him a lot of chicks.
00:24:29
Speaker
Oh, because he's trying to hit on Black Cat throughout this issue. He's like trying to get with Black Cat.
00:24:38
Speaker
You know, other... Do you know what year this is from? 1985. Other comics podcasts won't really go hard against Peter David.
00:24:55
Speaker
But this one will.
00:25:00
Speaker
Alright, finally on Robert's list is Amazing Spider-Man Beyond, ah which is number 75 through 93.
00:25:12
Speaker
Of what volume would that have been in?
Amazing Spider-Man Beyond Overview
00:25:17
Speaker
ah
00:25:21
Speaker
Let's see.
00:25:27
Speaker
That's from 2022,
00:25:33
Speaker
i think.
00:25:38
Speaker
So yeah, this is from... Or 2021. Volume 5? Volume 5, yeah. Okay. I a lot of this. volume five yeah okay um
00:25:50
Speaker
i read a lot of this I don't know if I read every issue of the whole Beyond Story. i don't I don't think I read it. This is 18 issues, and I remember some of it, but I didn't i didn't read all of it.
00:26:09
Speaker
I mean, that's ah it's a look, it's a Zeb Wells run that has Ben Reilly in it. It seems like we'd like it. Ben Reilly Spider-Man through much of this. Yeah.
00:26:21
Speaker
much of this story. It's not just Zeb Wells. It's ah
00:26:30
Speaker
Cody Ziegler and Saladin Ahmed and Zeb Wells. I think that might be everybody who was who was writing at the time.
00:26:44
Speaker
ah But we like, oh, Jed McKay did some of it too. Oh, yeah. I mean, that sounds like one we we might like. Yeah. um I definitely, oh, Kelly Thompson did some issues also.
00:26:55
Speaker
Queen Goblins in it, which is a great ah great name for a a villain. Yeah, some of it comes back in the... Oh, and Ben Reilly becomes Chasm. That's when he eventually becomes Chasm, yeah.
00:27:07
Speaker
And also, jeezy, crazy, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21. It's issues long. If you count the dot bays, it yes, it's that long. You gotta count the dot bays, Matt.
00:27:22
Speaker
The dot bays. um I definitely read parts of it. I don't think I read every single issue, and thus, um that makes it difficult to rank ah what I read of it, I thought was pretty good.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, I have not read a page of this. So, damn, it's got the Slingers in it, Matt. It does, yeah. A lot of it comes back in the Zeb Wells run. A lot of it also ah plays into the Mary Jane and Black Cat stuff that Zeb Wells did.
00:27:56
Speaker
Or ah that Jed McKay did. um So, I mean, you know, I bet it's... i bet it's All good, but i only read some of it.
00:28:08
Speaker
So yeah ah we will have to say that we cannot we cannot break this entirely.
00:28:19
Speaker
Unfortunately.
00:28:21
Speaker
So ah that's it for Robert's List. Robert, thank you for sending that in. Next up, we have a list from Jolene.
00:28:35
Speaker
First is Grendel Warchild. Oh, buddy. Grendel has a set Robocop samurai with a lightsaber fighting McDemon Gorilla while doing a Lone Wolf and Cub.
00:28:48
Speaker
ah Y'all will keep trying to get us to read Grendel, and eventually, maybe one day we will, but it hasn't happened yet. Yeah, I mean, like the weird thing is, like I mean, yeah, that sounds great. I bet we'd love it.
00:29:03
Speaker
I have no doubt at all that we would really enjoy it. But haven't read it. Can't tell you why No reason.
00:29:15
Speaker
there's There's limited time on the planet Earth. And I gotta to read every issue of Twush. And I gotta read every issue of Hush 2. Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:29
Speaker
Next up is Catwoman Relentless by Ed Brubaker, which i am certain that I read.
Catwoman Storylines Discussion
00:29:38
Speaker
read ah Definitely, i have read that. I just need some issue numbers.
00:29:43
Speaker
ah Yes, let's let's find out what specific issues those are. I feel like that's probably the one where Catwoman fucking kills Black Mask, which is ah extremely good, actually.
00:29:57
Speaker
it runs from Catwoman number 12 to Catwoman number 16. Okay, let's see. um ah Unfortunately, ah the artist on that arc is not somebody we would prefer to talk about.
00:30:14
Speaker
That's a real bummer. Yeah.
00:30:18
Speaker
um But I do remember that story being really good. Yeah, man. That whole run is good. That whole run whips. But i this is when I was like, this book has has found its rhythm. It starts with number 12. Yeah.
00:30:37
Speaker
ah Like, Black Mask does some, like, nasty shit in this that's, like, full-out gross. this was the This was the best of the continuing era of Black Mask is a weird sadist who tortures people to death comics.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, far and away. And, yeah, it ends with, like, I mean, like, Selina Kyle's sister gets tortured. Yeah. Into Insanity by ah Black Mask.
00:31:10
Speaker
And then... um Maggie. her That's her sister, mag Maggie. yeah Maggie Kyle. And then, like... Catwoman ain't Batman.
00:31:21
Speaker
Don't forget. Don't forget, folks. Catwoman ain't Batman. She'll... She'll fuck you up. yeah oh They end up having a Die Hard ending.
00:31:34
Speaker
Catwoman does a fucking flash kick from Street Fighter. ah Knocks Black Mask off a balcony and he's hanging by one hand. And he says, um come on, you won, okay? Help me up.
00:31:46
Speaker
And she goes, God, you're even crazier than I thought. And he falls to his fucking death. Die Hard style. yeah And then ah the woman who was working with Black Mask pulls a gun on Selena and ah Holly shoots her in the back and kills her.
00:32:02
Speaker
yeah And ah then ah s Selina makes out with Slam Bradley, and that's a really good romance until Hush comes along and fucks it up there was There's a concurrent Slam Bradley story going through this that like ends up converging by the end with the Selina stuff. The Slam Bradley stuff is a really good B-plot in this.
00:32:23
Speaker
That was one of my favorite things about the Brubaker Catwoman run, is that... like You had such a great extended cast that you could do those kinds of B-plots throughout.
00:32:43
Speaker
And, man, it was great. Yeah, man. play good com ah it That is honestly, to this day, the greatest sin of Hush for me.
00:32:56
Speaker
Is that it ruined this Catwoman run. Yeah, well, it didn't ruin the run. Because Brumaker did... like The the c Selina Kyle-Slam-Bradley breakup is also really good.
00:33:08
Speaker
yeah But it like this romance felt like it was going somewhere. And then, much in the same way that Hush 2 is clearly made by people who haven't been reading any Batman comics, because why would they?
00:33:21
Speaker
ah Here's the hush just kind of fucking up what's going on in this book, and the other books kind of have to go in line with it. Because it's selling.
00:33:32
Speaker
Which is frustrating. Yeah. like I forgot how like fucked up and gross and scary Black Mask looked at this point. Yeah, man, because ah that's that's his head.
00:33:46
Speaker
That's his head, yeah. It's not a mask, it's his head. man. He's like the Red Skull. That's not a mask, that's his head. Yeah.
00:33:58
Speaker
Yeah, what an absolute freak Black Mask is in this story. Yeah, and this is, I believe this is post-War Games, so this is post-War Games.
00:34:12
Speaker
ah Stephanie Brown getting tortured to death with a power drill, I want to say. i believe that's right. I'm almost certain that's correct. ah But this is like far and away. this is February 2003. Shit, that might be before.
00:34:28
Speaker
If anything, this is Brubaker. Yeah, this is actually this is actually before that. So this this might have been like kind of setting the tone for that going forward.
00:34:40
Speaker
This was before that? Huh. Yeah, because this is 2003, and then War Games is 2004. Okay. Okay. I was going to say maybe it was Brubaker kind of like getting getting some retribution for that.
00:34:57
Speaker
ah But I guess not. um I'm looking at the cover of number 15. And I know that's supposed to be Catwoman and Slam Bradley on the cover, but it absolutely just looks like Catwoman and David Lynch, and that's very funny.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, are those those J.G. Jones covers on Catwoman were not J.G. Jones' best work, unfortunately. They look a little bit rushed, weirdly enough.
00:35:23
Speaker
and like They look like someone saw them and was then like, oh, is Paul Galaci on this book? And then they put Paul Galaci on that book.
00:35:35
Speaker
It does look like some Paul Galassi art, for sure. um i Look, I know that the the the artist on these comics also um not great.
00:35:48
Speaker
And as as far as a person, according to what folks have said, but the art the heart in these issues is... and i It is hard for me to say that it's bad.
00:36:04
Speaker
I do, unfortunately, like that art yeah quite a bit. yeah But, you know, like, you know. You know. You know. it's You gotta you gotta to figure out how to live with it.
00:36:18
Speaker
Yeah, man. It's a good run. The whole Brubaker run, even when Paul Galassi is drawn, it's pretty good. i killed them I kind of feel like that story is sort of the peak of it.
00:36:35
Speaker
ah It's certainly one that I remember the most. Yeah. for like I mean, I kind of knew exactly what it was when when you mentioned it. But, yeah, it's it's good.
00:36:50
Speaker
Give me a number. It's weird that this is 22 years ago. It's weird. Like, 22 years ago this month. 16 is cover dated April 2003. Yeah.
00:37:02
Speaker
This does not feel like a comic from 1983 would have felt. Back then. Back then. And yet, here we are. It feels more modern. 20 years ago, comics from 20 years ago feel more modern now than comics from 20 years ago felt 20 years ago.
00:37:27
Speaker
Which is weird to think about. um We have two... Brubaker, Catwoman Stories at number 143 and 145. Those are issues one through four of this series.
00:37:42
Speaker
And Selina's big score, which is also really good. Also pretty good. i don't I don't know if this is better than those, but it's pretty good. ah Why Holly Isn't Dead is way lower at number 924.
00:37:56
Speaker
That's because Why Holly Isn't Dead is a joke story. It's a joke story, yeah. And it's a joke story that's like, hey, fuck continuity, actually. Which I'm like, okay. Alright, guys. Come on.
00:38:07
Speaker
I know you didn't want to read the fucking Chuck Dixon, Jim Ballant Catwoman run, neither did I, but it's not my job to. i It kind of was my job to, but you know.
00:38:18
Speaker
Alright, I'm going to just start going by 50s, starting with number 250. okay Okay. 250 is Batman the Black Glove. This ain't that good. This ain't that good.
00:38:31
Speaker
300 is Finding Batman. That's the Kevin Conroy story. Probably not that good. I think that we're in the neighborhood, though.
00:38:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. ah Let's see. ah At number 350 is Mr. Mix's Pitlick and Batmite World's Funnest.
00:38:59
Speaker
Talking about that Evan Dorkin jam? Yeah. That comic's good. That comic's good. i don't know that this is any i mean I mean, I think this could be better than that.
00:39:11
Speaker
Well, we weirdly below that have Kate Bishop Hawkeye Volume 1, which I do think is better than this. And TMNT Northampton, also I think better than this, honestly. Okay, okay, okay, okay. 400 is Empire Volume 1.
00:39:24
Speaker
at four hundred is empire volume one It's probably about that good. Okay. ah In there with that is, do X-Men write it right ah Xavier's... Not that good.
00:39:38
Speaker
Murder at the Mansion? Not that good. Not that good. Tower of Babel is at 405. Not that good. Assault on Weapon Plus and Planet X are at 407, 408. I would say it's maybe better than those.
00:39:52
Speaker
Okay. ah How does it rank up with Uncanny X-Men number 194 Juggernauts back in town? I mean, that comic owns, dude. Okay, so below that?
00:40:05
Speaker
but what What a silly question that you're asking me.
00:40:09
Speaker
So is this the note new number 407? I think the new number 407, yeah. Okay, so Catwoman numbers... Oh, no, no, sorry, this would be the new 408.
00:40:22
Speaker
Below Assault on Weapon Plus? No, below Juggernauts Back in Town. What have we done?
00:40:29
Speaker
ah What I have at number 406 is Juggernauts Back in Town. I have 406 is Tower of Babel. Okay. You know, we could just... Well, no.
00:40:40
Speaker
Because I don't want everybody having access to my spreadsheet. I was going to we could just both work in the spreadsheet. We're going to have to figure that out. ah Eventually. um I don't know what you have in the top that I don't have...
00:40:55
Speaker
And we'll have to make sure that you put ah the news stories in the right places, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. This... All right.
00:41:07
Speaker
This goes below Juggernauts Back in Town. Below Juggernauts Back in Town, yes. For me, that's number 407. Okay. It's Catwoman number 12 through number 16, and that story is called Relentless. Relentless.
00:41:28
Speaker
What do you have at number 400? ah i Hang on a second, because I know that ah ah that World's Funnest was wrong on my list as well.
00:41:41
Speaker
Or different on my list, I should say. Okay, that's what I had at 350. That's what I have at 350.
00:41:53
Speaker
all right. Data is entered. Okay. ah Yeah, I have that at 351. At 300, have Finding Batman, so the problem is between 300 and 350. Okay.
00:42:04
Speaker
okay What do you have at number 325? The Hickatea. I have McDuffie, Pelletier, Black Panther, Storm, New Fantastic Four. That's at 326 on my list.
00:42:17
Speaker
What do you have at number 310? New World Order. I have L.A. Woman. Yep, that's number 311 on mine. What do you have at number 305?
00:42:30
Speaker
Uh, Gerhard Schnabel. I have Cosmic Odyssey. It's at 306. What do you have at 301? Mano del Destino. I have Howard the Duck.
00:42:40
Speaker
That's at 302. Mano del Destino is at two very different places on our two lists. Okay, where is it on yours?
00:42:50
Speaker
Uh...
00:42:53
Speaker
I had... Oh, wait. Oh, I see the problem.
00:42:59
Speaker
Okay, now we're all now we're all synced up. what What was the problem? It was not on a new line. It was on the same line as Finding Batman for some reason.
00:43:10
Speaker
So it was not... Twas not I what fucked up. Twas I that fucked up. Twas beauty killed the beast. So, ah we we'll need to make sure that our new rankings are in the right places.
00:43:26
Speaker
All those Spider-Man comics we ranked. So, Amazing Spider-Man numbers 361 through 363...
00:43:38
Speaker
ah should be at... We're doing this live, everybody. At 1383. It's at 1383, below Earth-X. Below Earth-X, above Battle Scars, yes.
00:43:48
Speaker
Yes. Correct. um Amazing Spider-Man number 266...
00:43:54
Speaker
is should be at number 1492 below Rantanagar War. ah yeah and spiderman oh And we didn't rank Spider-Man Beyond. So we should be all good now.
00:44:07
Speaker
Okay. All right. Hey, folks. Hey, that's the process. that's Stick with us. That's the process. All right. Finally on Jolene's list is...
00:44:19
Speaker
Catwoman 1 million, 9 million lives, future Catwoman does a heist on Arkham Planet. I swear to God that Jolene has sent this one in before.
00:44:32
Speaker
i swear this we have we this has been in here before. This has been before before us, the Arbiters. Well, we've ranked it. It's ranked. It's at number 1223.
00:44:46
Speaker
It's ranked. It's on the list. yeah I just did a quick search for Jim Ballant on my list, and there it is, 1223. There is a backup on Jolene's list, which is Flash number 19, A Meeting of Rogues, written by William Messner Loeb's ah Wally Takes a Date to Captain Cold's Suicide Squad release party. I think we've already ranked that.
00:45:08
Speaker
We also have that one, too. That's at 645 on the list. Yeah, that's that's one we've ranked, I think, since Jolene sent in this list. Yeah, we ranked that ah back in February of this year.
Punisher Storylines Examination
00:45:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:45:19
Speaker
ah So, Jolene, thank you for that list. ah Here's a list from Steve Lee. These are Punisher stories. All right, hell yeah.
00:45:31
Speaker
First is Amazing Spider-Man, Volume 1, Issue 129. The Punisher sto Strikes Twice, written by Jerry Conway, penciled by Ross Andrews. That is the first appearance of the Punisher.
00:45:45
Speaker
It's...
00:45:49
Speaker
It's not great, honestly. It's not great. I mean, it's... First of all, that fucking freak is in it. The Jackal. Miles Warren, the Jackal. Yeah.
00:45:59
Speaker
That freak show that we hate. That absolute total freak. That real nasty freak-o.
00:46:10
Speaker
Who's just nasty as hell.
00:46:14
Speaker
oh I've got to make a clone of Gwen Stacy. that's yeah That's Miles Warren. He's nasty. Look at that costume. until and and keep And remember, that's a costume.
00:46:29
Speaker
There's like a dude in there.
00:46:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. it's It's very weird that in his first appearance, the Punisher is working for the Jackal, which is something the Punisher, Frank Castle, later would absolutely never do.
00:46:46
Speaker
yeah he would shoot the Jackal and kill him on sight. The Jackal would not get one word out before Frank Castle put a bullet in his head. Yeah. oh Which is wild.
00:47:01
Speaker
yeah i mean this is I mean, it's very much like...
00:47:06
Speaker
Very much primordial Punisher. like It's such a prototype that the character becomes so different. like Even in in terms of looks.
00:47:17
Speaker
like I mean, the costume is there. like russ Ross Andrew designed that costume, and like it has essentially remained that ever since. Well, kind of, but not really.
00:47:30
Speaker
I mean, in in it's the black costume with the skull on the chest. Black costume with the skull on the chest, yeah. But the skull that he's got here is like huge and takes up his entire torso, and it kind of looks like a Halloween costume. yeah And it's honestly not until Mike Zek that you really get like the classic Punisher costume with that.
00:47:52
Speaker
Honestly, i hate to say it because of what it has become, but honestly, that pretty cool logo... it's i mean I mean, there's a reason why it got co-opted. I don't know if I sent you a picture, ah but I saw a car with a trans-flagged Punisher skull on it. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:48:15
Speaker
And, like, i don't I don't know what it means.
00:48:25
Speaker
like to it But it does seem like it is is meant specifically to piss off cops. I think so, yeah. And in that case, I'm all fucking for it.
00:48:36
Speaker
And also, if you're like, hey, trans rights, or I'm gonna shoot a bazooka into your hotel, like, in the cover to so Punisher No. 1, then hell yeah.
00:48:49
Speaker
Yeah, i i I would say that... If Garth Ennis were writing a Punisher story, he would absolutely write a Punisher story where Frank protects a trans kid.
00:49:06
Speaker
Absolutely. ah Oh, um a a writer of wizard fiction would have been got in a Garth Ennis Punisher story by now.
00:49:17
Speaker
You know that's true. All right, so... I just found an article on Den of Geek about um Jerry Conway trying to take back the Punisher logo. Yeah.
00:49:33
Speaker
That also gives examples of other people trying to take back the Punisher logo. And apparently Sam Ennis designed the Punisher overlaid skull with the trans pride flag and flowers.
00:49:50
Speaker
And said, this is it to honor Marsha P. Johnson during Pride Month. Hell yeah. And said, without her, there would never be there would be no LGBTQA plus pride.
00:50:01
Speaker
In this way, I might subvert the current view of the skull form from one of violence and oppression to once again speak as a voice for the marginalized. i You know what? I fully support that.
00:50:14
Speaker
Yeah. and Also, I bet it pisses off cops. I bet it really does, yeah, when they see it. ah Anyway, back to this comic. But yeah, like the but the basics of the costume are there. I do think it's funny that in reprints they color the gloves white and the boots white, because that's what they are later.
00:50:34
Speaker
Right, yeah. But they weren't that originally. No, they were all all black, yeah. I also like that Ross Andrew draws the Punisher with a little ankle holster, and It's the tiniest little gun.
00:50:48
Speaker
He's got the tiniest little gun on his ankle. It's like a cap gun. He also draws him with like like a Widow's Peak and like ah big sideburns like he's fucking Golgo 13. Yeah, but he looks like Dracula.
00:51:05
Speaker
he He does, yeah. like It's weird because eventual like the Widow's Peak sticks around for like until the 80s, but then it goes away.
00:51:17
Speaker
like Jim Lee ain't drawing that Widow's Peak, for sure. it comes and goes. yeah right because like I remember those ah those covers to the Garth Ennis comics.
00:51:31
Speaker
The Bradstreet ones? The Bradstreet ones, where he had a Widow's Peak, but then on the inside, Steve Dillon was not drawing yes steve dylan sure is hold on durome with one Yeah, Steve one. Steve Dillon draws that straight across, man.
00:51:44
Speaker
Somebody else did this cover. And the cover, yeah on the cover, he looks more like later Punisher. Is the cover not Ross Andrew? I think the cover is somebody else.
00:51:56
Speaker
um It definitely looks like...
00:52:01
Speaker
I want to... I mean, I hesitate to say that it's John Romita Sr., but that's what it looks like to me. Interesting. Let's see.
00:52:11
Speaker
That's...
00:52:14
Speaker
Help us out here. by Gil Kane. ah yo Gil Kane, John Romita, and Gaspar Saladino. I did actually know that he did that cover, and I had completely forgotten that fact.
00:52:25
Speaker
Gil Kane. That makes sense. Yeah. i' yeah i mean like But like at the end, the put like Spider-Man is like, hey, the Jackal's actually a total freak who's a criminal.
00:52:40
Speaker
And the Punisher's like, I can't believe he used me. Which, not great for it is first appearance for the Punisher to look like a dumbass. Yeah, I like that the cover of this issue says, he's different. He's deadly.
00:52:55
Speaker
The Punisher. And it's like, you're right, but you're not right yet.
00:53:02
Speaker
He's not really either of those things in this comic book. He will be. Yeah. But not yet. Yeah, it it's
00:53:16
Speaker
it's... the the It's a weird issue given what happens to Frank later, but if you if you divorce it from like the character of Frank Castle as he continues and becomes the kind of...
00:53:29
Speaker
the kind of B-movie Death Wish character that he turns into in the eighty s when he becomes really popular. Like, it's still a kind of weird issue of Spider-Man, but it's a good one.
00:53:43
Speaker
Like, it reads more weird than it actually is because of what happens to the Punisher later. It's... a perfectly normal early 70s issue of Spider-Man. you know it's It's fine. if it wasn't the issue If it wasn't the issue that introduced the Punisher, it would be utterly forgettable.
00:54:04
Speaker
here's Here's a hot take. It's better than Hulk 181.
00:54:11
Speaker
The first appearance of Wolverine. A very similar... like this reads really weird because of what happened later comic of what that character eventually became like where yeah where they're introduced is totally different from what they ended up being. Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:28
Speaker
Back when, uh, back when Wolverine was not yet the most important character in comics history. Well, have one 81 at number five 50. And I think that's purely out of a lot of that is legacy.
00:54:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um But like, the only thing I would say you could really make an argument that this is a not as good as Hulk 181 is that the Jackal's in it.
00:54:53
Speaker
And he's a real nasty, nasty boy. Very nasty freak, yeah. He's a pervert, man. you know i You're preaching to the choir with me.
00:55:05
Speaker
I know you know, but in case you're listening and you don't know that Miles Warren the Jackal is a fucking pervert, he's a real pervo freak.
00:55:18
Speaker
So are you saying above or below that?
00:55:22
Speaker
I think it's... Well, Legacy is very important with Wolverine. But I think as a comic, it's better.
00:55:32
Speaker
Okay. oh Is it better than the Spider-Mobile issue, which is also a Jerry Conway-Ross-Andrew joint, which we have at eight eleven but But you said it's better than Incredible Hulk 181. Yeah, but I think the legacy is kind of inarguable there. Oh, okay okay. I think as a comic, it's better.
00:55:54
Speaker
But like Marvel Comics could exist without The Punisher. Marvel Comics could not exist without Wolverine.
00:56:06
Speaker
I think the Spider-Mobile issue is more fun to read. I'll tell you not in it.
00:56:14
Speaker
The absolute gross freak, the Jackal. That's the next issue after this. Yeah, man. ah Very funny. um The first appearance of Venom is at 813. The
00:56:29
Speaker
but the the first appearance Ultimate Venom is at 813. Oh, that's Ultimate Venom, yeah. um I would put this above that. would put this above that as well. I would put it above Generation Hex. So I think we can put it at 812. Yeah.
00:56:41
Speaker
Right below the the issue that came immediately after it. ah So Amazing Spider-Man number 129.
00:56:52
Speaker
First Punisher.
00:56:55
Speaker
is it new Is it number 812? i I'm sure that issue or that issue has a story title, but I don't care. I believe it's just called The Punisher. Oh, okay.
00:57:09
Speaker
I mean, well Let's take a look at the splash page real quick. ah The Punisher Strikes Twice, which was, I believe, included in the email. it's Yes, it's The Punisher Strikes Twice. It's called The Punisher so Strikes Twice. That's the first appearance of The Punisher.
00:57:28
Speaker
I mean, i guess he strikes twice in it, like he tries to kill Spider-Man twice. um Because he's been fooled by the Jackal. The Jackal couldn't fool me. like but I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else.
00:57:43
Speaker
The Jackal couldn't fool me with anything.
00:57:49
Speaker
ah Alright, here's our next submission from Steve. The next one on the list. The Punisher invades the NOM.
00:58:02
Speaker
Alright, I have read these. ah Now... Steve says it's written by Roger Salek with pencils by Mike Harris, but um it's actually Roger Salek, Chuck Dixon, and Don Lomax with pencils by Mike Harris, Kevin Kobasek, Alberto Sai Chan, Gary Kwapiz, and John Basima.
00:58:28
Speaker
That's that's the the entire Punisher invades the nom.
00:58:35
Speaker
story
00:58:39
Speaker
in its entirety had multiple writers and multiple artists. ah i read this ah when I was reading all of the Punisher comics. um and Because it goes through it goes through multiple... no, okay.
00:58:58
Speaker
oh no ok There was the Punisher Invades the NOM two-part miniseries. Yeah. And then there were a bunch of like kind of tie-in issues in the main books.
00:59:14
Speaker
So the miniseries was just by Roger Salek and Mike Harris. Right. Yeah. so And then there's the Punisher shows up in the pages of the NOM. Right.
00:59:26
Speaker
And then there's like... Punisher War Journal issues that tie into this too. Or there was a different Punisher Invades the NOM
00:59:40
Speaker
story that ran in the NOM. In the NOM, yeah. And then, yeah, there were... three-parter in the NOM, and then it ties into stuff that comes back later in a Punisher series.
00:59:54
Speaker
Okay, that makes sense to me. There was a trade paperback that had all of that in it. yeah Yeah, which did not exist at the time that I was reading all the the Punisher comics.
01:00:09
Speaker
I had to do it the hard way.
01:00:13
Speaker
Now, Chris, what ah what would you want to rank? Just the two-part... miniseries? ah Yeah, I think we should just rank the miniseries, because that is what is called The Punisher Invades the Nom.
01:00:30
Speaker
Yes, the the the three issues of The Nom are also called The Punisher Invades the Nom, but... Yeah, it's very confusing. Yeah.
01:00:39
Speaker
Okay, just the two-part miniseries. Yeah. What do you think?
01:00:46
Speaker
Uh, it's bad. mean, it's bad. Um, like...
01:00:52
Speaker
The fact that the NOM existed as a series is wild. It could not have existed at any time other than the time it existed. Yeah, because it's like... It's like... It's not that weird in the context of... Like, yeah, there were war comics in 1960...
01:01:19
Speaker
sixty that were like World War II comics, you know, about a war from like 15 years earlier. Yeah. um But the NOM started in 1986.
01:01:31
Speaker
eighty six all And was... know Larry Hama edited it.
01:01:41
Speaker
And it's like... It's a, like, fairly, like, straightforward, realistic...
01:01:51
Speaker
like Vietnam War comic. like i mean it's it's It's like, you know... It's like Sergeant Rock, or it's like Nick Fury Howling Commandos. like Spider-Man doesn't show up in it.
01:02:03
Speaker
You know? Right. Like...
01:02:09
Speaker
Yeah, man, it's weird. It's weird that this comic existed.
01:02:17
Speaker
um and and And it's also weird that it is in real time.
01:02:24
Speaker
Like, that was the gimmick of the book. um don't know if you knew that. yeah I don't know that i've I've read even a page of the series The Nom.
01:02:36
Speaker
but i have to I've only read The Punisher issues.
01:02:41
Speaker
ah But it's like... it's like the Kind of the gimmick of it was that it was exactly 20 years prior to publication.
01:02:54
Speaker
Like, what happened in the Vietnam War, from the perspective of these soldiers? okay Weird. Like, that's the original gimmick. Weird. Like, everything is weird about this comic. Anyway, the the ah story where the Punisher shows up is the most...
01:03:13
Speaker
Barry Allen's bowtie bullshit.
01:03:18
Speaker
It's explaining the skull, right? It's explaining the skull. Yeah. Which doesn't, if there's anything that doesn't need to be explained, it's a guy who fucking kills people putting a skull on his shirt.
01:03:37
Speaker
Like, I don't... Listen, man, yeah I learned something recently. yeah Which is that we might hate that shit, but a lot of people eat that shit up.
01:03:52
Speaker
Yeah, and I know a lot of people are dumb. like I was complaining to some friends about watching Wicked. um And and like you know I enjoyed it, mostly.
01:04:07
Speaker
But it has so much of that in it. so much of explanations of stuff that don't need explaining. Like, like the hat.
01:04:19
Speaker
Like she's a witch. She wears a hat, of course. Yeah. But like the movie is like, here's why she has the hat. It was a mean gift.
01:04:30
Speaker
Then why would she keep wearing it? If it was mean, Because they eventually become friends. They also spend what so much more of that movie as enemies than friends. Matt, if I gave you a hat as like a cruel joke, yeah and then we became friends, I'd probably just be like, hey, I'm sorry about that hat joke.
01:04:51
Speaker
And you'd probably be like, yeah, I donated that hat to Goodwill, because I'm not a sociopath. but But like i was I was talking to some friends about... like oh you know I enjoyed the songs and stuff in Wicked, but I don't get why there was such a need to like give origin stories for these elements.
01:05:13
Speaker
And to a person, they were all like, I liked that part. And I was just like, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, it's, you know, like, I know people love it because they've they've been doing it as long as there have been stories, you know?
01:05:30
Speaker
i mean, I think it's because they haven't been exposed to it to the level that we have as being people who read comics. Like, there's there's literally apocryphal stories about, like,
01:05:44
Speaker
the The coins that Judas was paid with by Pontius Pilate being the gold that was stolen from baby Jesus that was given to him by the three kings. like to As a species, we do this.
01:05:58
Speaker
yeah It's just, it's dumb. But yeah, but it's the origin of the Punisher skull. You get to see the Punisher in Vietnam. it's i mean it's It's basically like a bad Garth Ennis comic.
01:06:12
Speaker
it's It's specifically Frank Castle versus a sniper. Yeah. like it's It's like a game of wits between Frank Castle and this sniper. And there's this the first issue ends with him but pretending to hang himself.
01:06:27
Speaker
Wild. ah the Buddy? Yeah, man. And he's doing the ah the lethal weapon move. of He like chokes the guy out with his legs.
01:06:38
Speaker
Right, yeah. And then he like kills a bunch of people. And like, yay?
01:06:46
Speaker
Great, great job killing the Viet Cong, Frank. I feel like, I mean, I maybe that's the big difference between, like, war comics of the 60s and the Nam, is that, like, we didn't really have a lot of complicated feelings about the events of World War II.
01:07:06
Speaker
Right, yeah. In many ways, at least in the European theater of operations. Yeah.
01:07:14
Speaker
don't know, man. com Comics are weird sometimes. Comics are real weird. Yeah, no, it's not good. It's not good, and um you shouldn't read it. It's not good, and you shouldn't read it. It's not like, you know, it could be a lot worse.
01:07:31
Speaker
You know, i don't I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about the events of The Punisher Invades the Nam, but, like, it's probably not as... It's certainly not as bad as it could be.
01:07:45
Speaker
Is it better or worse than when Punisher fought Wolverine? Oh, and um and he had the bodybuilding magazines? Uh-huh. That's actually more offensive.
01:07:56
Speaker
I would agree. i would i would definitely agree. that That might be the worst Garth Ennis-Punisher story. Well, that's... that That's not a Garth Ennis story. That's a Frank Thierry story.
01:08:08
Speaker
That's right. That's why it's... That's right. i' i The Garth Ennis side of it is probably the worst Garth Ennis Punisher story because it's all about like Wolverine's dumb and sucks and I hate him.
01:08:20
Speaker
Right, and that's right. I forgot that that was Frank Tierry and not Garth Ennis. I think we have the Garth Ennis at ah number twelve
01:08:39
Speaker
ah Hang on a second. yeah
01:08:49
Speaker
ah We have the the Frank Tierra one at $15.29. Okay, we have the one at something. Yeah. at $1,499.
01:09:01
Speaker
Okay. Not much worse. twelve ninety three worse than angel punisher which is at fourteen ninety nine okay not much worse
01:09:12
Speaker
Angel Punisher was an attempt to do something that got maybe more hate than it deserved. Yeah. Angel Punisher was like, oh, I know what the problem with is with the Punisher and why the Punisher is not popular anymore.
01:09:26
Speaker
It's because he's the Punisher. So let's do something else. yeah And what it was was, no it's just the comics are bad. The comics have been bad for kind of a while. The problem was not the Punisher. It was that the comics were bad. Yeah.
01:09:41
Speaker
I mean, i think it's I think it's probably worse. I do have a note, i because I have a notes column in the spreadsheet. And at 1505, we have Forever Evil. And my note for that says, Matt loves this comic. Okay, what number do you have Forever Evil at? 1504. Okay, 1504.
01:09:56
Speaker
Which is weird, because you love it Apparently. I love, um yeah, I love it. ah That's why it's at 1504. I don't I think it's not as good as Battle Pope, but it's probably better than Batman War Games.
01:10:09
Speaker
Okay, so that makes it the new number 1506. Yeah. yeah
01:10:16
Speaker
um And I'm going to say The Punisher vs. The Nom numbers 1 and 2 so that we don't confuse it for all the other comics that seem to be called The Punisher vs. The Nom or Invades The Nom.
01:10:32
Speaker
It's weird that it's Invades. Because he was there. He got sent there by the U.S. government. I mean, yeah, Matt.
01:10:44
Speaker
But that is an invasion. That's but classically what an invasion is. But that wasn't just him. you know No, it was not. ah Finally is on Steve's list is Punisher War Journal Volume 1, Issues 4 and 5, Sniper and Crucible.
01:11:04
Speaker
written by Carl Potts, and penciled by Jim Lee. ah That involve involves the Punisher's old squad mates from Vietnam being assassinated.
01:11:16
Speaker
ah What issue numbers? Four and five. It's Punisher War general Journal, Volume 1, numbers four and five.
01:11:25
Speaker
Why are we getting all these Punisher Vietnam stories?
01:11:31
Speaker
What are you getting at with this list, bud?
01:11:36
Speaker
What are you doing?
01:11:39
Speaker
oh Again, I've read these. It's fine.
01:11:46
Speaker
War Journal is weird because it's kind of the good Punisher book while it's coming out. ah The more serious one? Yeah, it's it's kind of more serious and like Jim Lee's drawing it and honestly,
01:12:00
Speaker
like Jim Lee's art on Punisher kicked ass. Like, yeah he drew some really cool stuff in that book. And his Frank, like, unfortunately, he draws Batman and Frank Castle as the same guy. And that guy is much more suited to play the role of Frank Castle.
01:12:22
Speaker
Because he draws him like, he's a fucking brick shithouse, you know? Right. Like, he kills so many dudes in this.
01:12:35
Speaker
Also, Punisher War Journal had the the original Punisher Armory pages, which, I mean, forget about the nom. That's the wildest thing that Marvel Comics ever published.
01:12:47
Speaker
Was Punisher Armory, which was a 24-page comic, essentially for children, that talked about how great real-life guns were that you could, like, from but we have We have discussed this many times Yeah, man. like i mean There's actually a really good sequence ah in War Journal No. 4 that's done with like muted colors. It's like the flashback to...
01:13:27
Speaker
ah like what's going on in in Vietnam with Frank's old army buddies. And like, it's done with muted colors. It's, it looks kind of like, this is going to sound weird, but it's the, it's the thing that comes to mind.
01:13:48
Speaker
It looks like a slightly colored version of the Marvel black and white magazines.
01:13:54
Speaker
Hmm. Okay. yeah I can see that. I don't like, I don't know it's, ah like if the inking was changed for those pages, Don Hudson and Scott Williams, ah Jim Lee and Scott Williams together forever, oh as as pencils and inks, like they did the inks on this and they did the rest of the issue, but it's like whatever is about the colors and inks on those pages really works. like They look good.
01:14:30
Speaker
all But yeah, like they they look better than the rest of the book, which is in full color. Which is wild. But you can really... It's a real Jim Lee showcase.
01:14:41
Speaker
like so In a way that I think really works for him. So, the ultimate story of this story, this two-issue story, is that somebody is killing all of Frank Castle's squad mates.
01:15:00
Speaker
back from his days of Vietnam. And that person turns out to be Sniper, who you think is going to be one of his old squad mates, but isn't.
01:15:11
Speaker
He's just a sniper. he's just He's just a sniper. The important guy is his old commanding officer, ah Colonel Ray Schoonover,
01:15:25
Speaker
schoonover who is running for Senate and doesn't want any of his like old war crimes coming back up. So, um, he hires the sniper to kill them, to kill them all.
01:15:41
Speaker
And so Frank goes and like shames the guy into killing himself. Yep. That's what happens. Yeah.
01:15:54
Speaker
This shooting knife micro turned me on to was a kick. Spring so strong it'll propel the blade through almost anything. Recall's very hard. Guess need two hands to aim it accurately. Now have a micro printer.
01:16:06
Speaker
That's the Punisher armory page from this issue about his ballistic knife um that you might remember from the movie. ah But it does it does have him shooting knife blades at Ayatollah Khamenei.
01:16:21
Speaker
A real guy! And ah Omar Gaddafi. Yeah. Or Mo Mar Gaddafi. ah Fucking wild.
01:16:33
Speaker
Anyway, yeah, these are fine. These are fine Punisher comics. You know, these are fine late 80s Punisher comics. Yeah. ah Yeah. All right. Give me a give me a neighborhood.
01:16:51
Speaker
i mean, where's the where's the fine part of list? Like the eleven hundreds 1100s, 1200s, yeah. I mean, we have the Garth vs. Wolverine story in the Yeah,
01:17:05
Speaker
I mean, it's probably better than that, you know? Like, 1200, we have the first appearance of Archie in Pep Comics 22. Punisher year one is at 1279. Yeah. punisher year one is at twelve seventy nine It's better than that. 1158, we have Kites, which is the bargain basement. There's no hope in Crime Alley.
01:17:23
Speaker
but hu ah It's better than that, I think. Again, like you really get Jim Lee. You get why Jim Lee in 1989 and 1990 was going to be a big deal when you read these issues.
01:17:41
Speaker
Punisher Social Studies is at 1128. Okay, that one does kind of kick ass. like i I know that I do not, under any circumstances, have to give it to Mike Barron. But i kind of have to hand it to Mike Barron on that one. He did watch Class of 1984, and it kind of kicked ass.
01:17:58
Speaker
Oh, Kitchen Irish is at 1142. Kitchen Irish is kind gross. It is a little gross, yeah. um
01:18:09
Speaker
It's... yeah
01:18:14
Speaker
it's It's better than the Dingbats of Danger Street. Okay. I think it's probably not as good as the first appearance of Hitman. But it's about that good.
01:18:28
Speaker
I would say it goes right below that. Alright, what number does that make it?
01:18:37
Speaker
So before Batman Adventures number Days of Madness. yes okay
01:18:46
Speaker
That's Punisher War Journal numbers four through five.
01:18:54
Speaker
And those stories are called Sniper. Sniper and Crucible. Before we get to our next list, Chris, I want to apologize. so I suddenly seem to be having trouble saying words.
01:19:06
Speaker
and him I've been hit with a wave of tiredness. rarely seen before in the middle of recording this, but we're going to power through the rest.
01:19:18
Speaker
Do you want to finish this up tomorrow? No, no. i'll We'll get through it. ah but Apologies if I get a little tongue twisted. I've already done that a couple of times, so ah please forgive me, listeners, for that.
01:19:31
Speaker
um Our next list is from Austin Wilden. Unfortunately, this list is called Branson Reese comic strips, which means we're not going rank them. no ah Afraid not.
01:19:45
Speaker
Sorry. it's a Branson Reese is great, and I like a lot of his stuff, but we don't do that currently. Maybe one day. Maybe one day.
01:19:56
Speaker
So, Austin, sorry about that. ah Send in ah another list, and we'll do that instead.
01:20:05
Speaker
Here's a list from Patrick O'Duffy, the boss dog.
01:20:11
Speaker
This is two different lists to choose from.
01:20:17
Speaker
um Over on the WRA Discord, we recently ranked all the 1994 DC Elseworlds annuals.
01:20:25
Speaker
Oh, so so so you guys are ranking stuff now. Okay, cool. They've been ranking stuff for a while over there. Oh, cool. That's great. So the first list is best... What do you need us for, huh?
01:20:40
Speaker
Huh? No, I guess anybody can do this. It's fine.
Worst 1994 Elseworlds Annuals Discussion
01:20:46
Speaker
ah The first one is Best 1994 DC Elseworlds Annuals.
01:20:51
Speaker
The second one is Worst 1994 DC Elseworlds Annuals. Which one do you want to do? Worst. Worst. Okay, here we go. want to do the worst ones. The first one is Lobo Annual No. 2, Fistful of Bastiches and Other Stories by Alan Grant and a bunch of artists.
01:21:12
Speaker
It's Wild West Lobo, and it's real fucking racist. Oh, I bet it sucks. I bet it sucks real bad.
01:21:24
Speaker
oh man. That doesn't sound good. haven't read it. Don't intend to. but Lobo annual number two. Elseworlds.
01:21:37
Speaker
yeah um I mean, I'm looking at it right now. It's... Damn, man. Kieran Dwyer drew some of this. Carlos Azcara drew some of this. Barry Kitson.
01:21:49
Speaker
That sure is a lot of talent. Drawing... ah look Drawing a Lobo story. That is all about killing indigenous people, from what I can tell. Yoinks!
01:22:05
Speaker
Oh, boy. Yeah. Jeepers. Wow.
01:22:10
Speaker
Whew.
01:22:15
Speaker
Yeah.
01:22:20
Speaker
Pretty rough. Man, it looks rough. It looks rough. I would... ah I think maybe they got it right when they said worst on this one. Wow, there's Sergio Aragonesart in this.
01:22:33
Speaker
Yeah, man. That's... That's bonkers. Oh, there's also um Asian racism and ah Mexican racism.
01:22:44
Speaker
You get it all in here. Wowie wow. we well Yeah, um you literally couldn't pay me money to read this.
01:22:55
Speaker
Alright, next is Green Lantern Annual 3, Ring of Evil by Dave DeVries and Dean Zachary. ah That is where Hal Jordan and Guy Gardner are actual Nazis, and it contains racial slurs.
01:23:12
Speaker
That also sounds bad.
01:23:16
Speaker
But you know what? Haven't read it.
01:23:20
Speaker
Don't intend to. Do you think that you would have read the best Elseworlds? I mean, we can we can run through them real quick. if if If we get one more and we haven't done it, we can run through the best ones and see if we have.
01:23:34
Speaker
Alright, finally, there's Flash Annual No. 7, The Barry Allen Story by Mark Wheatley, Alan Gross, and Ed Bennis. ah And it is about Wally West being a has-been directing a straight-to-video biopic of Barry Allen.
01:23:54
Speaker
Man, I'll tell ya. ah
01:23:59
Speaker
I didn't read this one because... You know, when I was reading like the Mark Waid run, um this is not by Mark Waid, so I did not read it.
01:24:16
Speaker
I'm looking at the the Green Lantern one. Uh-huh. They're just straight-up Nazis. I mean, does that go anywhere?
01:24:30
Speaker
but the but They become not Nazis? They become z
01:24:37
Speaker
Later.
01:24:39
Speaker
I can't tell. but but but But buddy, Hal Jordan is just a fucking Nazi. Guy Gardner is wearing
01:24:53
Speaker
ah like a swastika pin. I do not know what the fuck is going on in this comic. Well, Matt, it's in it's an elseworld. You know, it's a a story that couldn't or shouldn't be.
01:25:09
Speaker
yeah but they they take Heroes are taken from their usual settings and put into strange times and places, some that have existed or might have existed, and others that can't, couldn't, or shouldn't exist. That's one of them.
01:25:20
Speaker
Oh, okay. It does end with Jon Stewart becoming Green Lantern, and then he he kicks their asses.
01:25:31
Speaker
Until you said the words Green Lantern in that sentence, I was terrified to find out how it ended. he but He becomes Green Lantern in a Green Lantern costume.
01:25:43
Speaker
And he uses the Green Lantern ring to make both Hal Jordan and Guy Gardner shit. Great. So at least the ending at least the ending is alright.
01:25:58
Speaker
ah But, man, that's that's rough stuff. That is very rough stuff. Have you read that Flash comic? No, I have not read the Flash comic.
01:26:09
Speaker
Alright, the backup is the worst list. Look at the cover of it. It looks like a fucking bummer.
01:26:16
Speaker
I'm sure it's a bummer.
01:26:18
Speaker
Patrick said it was just boring. ah But I bet it's a bummer. Here's the weird thing about Elseworlds.
01:26:31
Speaker
There are some real good Elseworlds. You know, couldn't come Elseworld. I don't love it, but a lot of people do. um
01:26:42
Speaker
A lot of Elseworlds, much like a lot of what-ifs, are like, yeah, you're right, that shouldn't be what happens. Because that's a bad story, actually.
01:26:57
Speaker
I mean, there's some fun what-ifs, but like... I mean, there's some fun Elseworlds, too. Yeah, these aren't. These aren't. All right, him hit me with that list of the best. We'll see if we'll see what we've read. Well, do you want to hear the backup from the worst?
01:27:11
Speaker
Okay, sure. It's ah New Titans Annual 10, Facets by Marv Wolfman, Louise Simonson, and Scott Lee, which is a D&D adventure, but not a good one.
01:27:23
Speaker
I mean, boy, you know I haven't read that one. You know haven't read New Titans. All right, here's the best list. Here's the best list.
01:27:34
Speaker
Detective Comics Annual No. 7, Leatherwing by Chuck Dixon and Enrique Alcatena, Pirate Batman. Yeah, man, I have read that one. Yeah, I figured you might have more potential to have read the best than the worst.
01:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, man, i I have read this one. And again... You do not, under any circumstances, have to hand it to Chuck Dixon. But ah he'll he'll turn you in a B-plus most days of the week.
01:28:09
Speaker
ah And the story of Leatherwing is a real hoot. The ultimate B-plus player, Chuck Dixon. his's He was a good hand.
01:28:23
Speaker
he was He could get anybody over. I feel like this comic was like rather influential.
01:28:33
Speaker
And then it was about Batman being and a pirate? Pirate Batman has come back on... Oh, yes. There was an action figure in this, dude. Yeah. um I like that ah the Alcatena art... It looks like what it's supposed to be.
01:28:52
Speaker
yeah you know he like it's it's He's got a real kind of Eurocomics-y style that like kind of makes it look like you know it's it's kind of like a woodcut. it's kind of like well it It looks like the illustrations in an illustrated novel about pirates. About pirates, yeah. oh And it's got Jokers in it looking all weird, and Catwoman's in it, and there's a little little pirate Robin. like
01:29:18
Speaker
it's got It's got all the stuff you like. it's Here's what I'll say for Chuck Dixon. A Chuck Dixon comic is going to give you everything you expect it to be.
01:29:31
Speaker
Nothing more and nothing less.
01:29:34
Speaker
And everything you'd expect from, hey, Batman's a pirate, is in this comic. He fights a shark. The Joker is also a pirate. Robin is there, and he's got a butler named Alfredo.
01:29:48
Speaker
The only thing that I would say... makes it less good is... Chuck Dixon. Well, Pirate Batman, at the end, stabs the Joker with a... with a saber.
01:30:06
Speaker
And... ah he's like... and also, like, sink this boat. Which, look... anybody else doing that? Great. But, like...
01:30:19
Speaker
If you're going to say this is pirate Batman, then he needs to be Batman and not be a murderer. I mean, you say he needs to be a Batman, but but Matt, he also needs to be a pirate.
01:30:34
Speaker
Sure.
01:30:36
Speaker
and And to be fair, Pirate Joker did kill Robin. Or at least seemed to kill Robin. Yeah. ah Right before that. But he's supposed to be Batman.
01:30:49
Speaker
He should not be murdering anybody. And yet, you know, it's a way to, it's another way to get around like, oh, I'm going to have Batman kill the Joker. And like, okay.
01:31:01
Speaker
Yeah, but like, God, I hate that I'm having to defend this.
01:31:07
Speaker
But like, it does give you that cool panel at the end of of the Joker pinned to the mast with a sword at the bottom of the ocean. I'm not saying it's not cool.
01:31:18
Speaker
I'm not saying it's not cool. Like, I don't know, man. I think you can get away with it when it's pirate Batman. because it's not Because it's not like Return of Bruce Wayne, right? It's not like Batman, Batman. It's pirate Batman.
01:31:29
Speaker
Different guy. But like, if he's if he's a pirate that just kills people, then he's just a pirate. He's not pirate Batman. No, Matt, see, he dresses as a bat.
01:31:40
Speaker
But like, if he has none of the moral compass of Batman, then he's not Batman anymore. Yeah, but but I mean, did you see his ears? They're pointy and on top of his head.
01:31:54
Speaker
I'm just saying, the story could have ended with I'm Killer the Joker. and Don't know how much more clear I can make this for you. i Yes, I hear you. I mean, no, i think I think that's a fine complaint. Again, you know, this is perfectly acceptable comics.
01:32:13
Speaker
Sure. It's a B+. plus It's a B+. It might be a B- for you, but it's definitely a B.
Superman Stories Comparison
01:32:21
Speaker
It's in the B range, for sure. And the art is very cool.
01:32:24
Speaker
the The art, I think, really sells it. If this was, you know, Val Semkis, I don't think it would be as good. Agreed. it's It would be cool if it like continued and then the Joker came back as like... A ghost pirate?
01:32:42
Speaker
A ghost pirate, or like a, you know... ah monster from the sea. ah That would be cool. Yeah,
01:32:55
Speaker
man. Well, hey. let's let's get Let's get the 30th anniversary Elseworlds annuals. What is this? 1994? Okay, so 30... 31st anniversary. thirty first anniversary The annual... Comics annual...
01:33:11
Speaker
oh thirty second anniversary detective comics annual With the Ghost Pirate Joker. Yeah. The Goker. Right. The Goker.
01:33:22
Speaker
that with That's G-H. Because the Goker, with no H, that's when the Joker goes Super Saiyan.
01:33:34
Speaker
Pokemon Goker to the polls.
01:33:38
Speaker
Oh boy. Let's see, at 1200...
01:33:44
Speaker
We've got that Bob Haney, Jim Apero, Batman Commandee team up. It's probably not that good, actually. Okay. I don't know, man. All right. Say, what what's what's up?
01:33:58
Speaker
I was going to say, like this is a hot take. I would rather read this than the Denny O'Neill, Kurt Swan, Kryptonite, Nevermore. Where Superman eats the Kryptonite. Where Superman Kryptonite.
01:34:09
Speaker
Superman eats that kryptonite, that's the best page in the entire story, and then the story goes on for like four issues. That's true. Him eating that kryptonite does look rad as hell, but i I get what you're saying.
01:34:26
Speaker
Is this better than issues 1 through 13 of The Max?
01:34:32
Speaker
I don't think I read those. That seems like a U-ranking. I probably ranked that, and I know I ranked Omega the end Unknown.
01:34:41
Speaker
I mean, I read some of Omega the Unknown, 1976. I but yeah
01:34:49
Speaker
don't think it's as good as the that Disney Adventures crossover. That was good stuff, actually. Well, it wasn't good stuff. It was perfectly acceptable comics, but for this range. Okay. um We can put this above...
01:35:04
Speaker
I don't know. I don't think I would put it above the Max. The Max is more creative. the I would put it above that Ennis Vertigo book, though, un Unknown Soldier.
01:35:15
Speaker
Yeah, that book is <unk>'s a bummer, honestly. Okay, so this is the new number 1208. Yeah, tell you what this is. but This is just a new classification of comics.
01:35:26
Speaker
This is Waiting Room Comics, is what this is. Explain. um if If they got this comic at a doctor's office or at a hair salon and you're waiting on your appointment.
01:35:38
Speaker
it's It's great. It's a great thing. It'll pass that time. You'll be excited that it's there. Yeah. and You won't get to the end of it. No, but you're excited to read it instead of like some issue of Sports Illustrated from a year ago.
01:35:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
01:36:01
Speaker
An issue of popular mechanics about how the calculator is going to revolutionize everything.
01:36:09
Speaker
ah Next on the best list is Steel Annual No. 1, Crucible of Freedom, by John and junith Judith Bogdanov and Humberto Ramos.
01:36:22
Speaker
oh That is where John Henry Irons leads a slave uprising in Antebellum, Virginia. I have not read that one. i am going to guess that it kicks ass.
01:36:36
Speaker
i
01:36:39
Speaker
e I feel like that is really hard to gauge. Like, how good or bad that might be.
01:36:50
Speaker
You know? i mean, yeah, but i like John Bogdanov. yeah I am always down to see oh
01:37:02
Speaker
people who had slaves just getting their shit completely wrecked. Umberto Ramos is an interesting choice for drawing that. It is... I'm looking at it right now. It is There are parts of it that are absolutely in Umberto Ramos' style, and then there are parts of it that are definitely...
01:37:23
Speaker
more, he's trying to do more of a kind of American superhero style of the time. um The art is weird.
01:37:35
Speaker
The art is very weird. Boy, this John Henry Irons is a fucking hunk, though. He's a real hunk, yeah. there's a panel There's a page of him, like, no shirt, doing some forging. That's ah that's a hunky John Henry Irons.
01:37:51
Speaker
He makes himself a steel suit. That's kind of like copper toned. Oh, and shit. He is just shooting slave owners.
01:38:03
Speaker
Hell yeah. Hell yeah he is. Listen, i I was like, don't give Batman, bad pirate Batman a pass for killing the Joker, but I'll give Steel a pass. Absolutely give Steel a pass.
01:38:16
Speaker
yeah Fuck these guys.
01:38:21
Speaker
I don't know. This looks pretty rad, actually. Yeah, John Henry Irons does, like, wrestle a horse twice in this book. Once as himself and once as Steel.
01:38:34
Speaker
And it ends with him fucking just wrecking those slave owners and taking all the other enslaved people to freedom.
01:38:45
Speaker
Yeah, man. Just shooting these men in the face. Yeah. He, um... Just destroys their whole house. ah Like, he sets it up to explode, and then it does.
01:39:03
Speaker
And then ah he sets all of the other enslaved people free. That's pretty good. Hell yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. That one might just be fun to read. Yeah. Yeah.
01:39:15
Speaker
Alright, next on the list is Superman Annual No. 6, The Feral Man of Steel by Darren Vincenzo and Frank Fosco. And it asks the question, what if Superman was raised by jungle wolves in the Victorian era?
01:39:31
Speaker
That can't be good. If he was Mowgli? If he was no maybe more like Tarzan? Tarzan, I guess, yeah. But definitely wolves.
01:39:44
Speaker
Yeah. I'm looking at this. Y'all, this can't be good. You will have convince me that this is good. This was just the third best of these Elseworlds annuals. I mean, that's true. I can't think of another one of these Elseworlds annuals that would have been good.
01:40:03
Speaker
This has a Mike Mignola cover.
01:40:08
Speaker
I gotta say, that cover's pretty rad. yeah mean like i mean like I can't imagine the story being good, but the cover is cool. It looks cool. What do you think you could Mike Mignola could have drawn in 1994 that would not look cool?
01:40:23
Speaker
That is a great point. But like this is Superman wearing like a tiger skin. i bet if Mike Mignola drew that fucking... like i know we talked about how much we like the art in it, but if Mike Mignola the fucking leather wing, pirate Batman issue, that shit would be Yes, I agree.
01:40:41
Speaker
ah The interior art is a massive step down. Well, yeah. Sad to say. I mean, from Mike Mignola? Yeah. Like, that's that's not even fair to say, Matt. it's it's a Look, I said it's probably not fair, but it definitely is.
01:41:05
Speaker
Yeah, I guess he's just Tarzan in this.
01:41:09
Speaker
Like, It's Superman as Tarzan. I guess he becomes like the king of England?
01:41:18
Speaker
I guess so. Oh, yes, I guess so. The last line of this comic is, put that in your book, Mr. Kipling. So I guess, Jungle Book, you you were right. i guess but it's But it does feel like more of a Tarzan story. Yeah. Yeah.
01:41:35
Speaker
ah But then, yeah, by the end, it's a shot at Rudyard Kipling, a dude who sucked. It's wild that this story is literally titled The Feral Man of Steel.
01:41:50
Speaker
Yeah. but so that like that's ah That's a placeholder title. You're going to go back and put something that's kind of like The Feral Man of Steel, but not that, obviously.
01:42:02
Speaker
Yeah, Super Mowgli.
01:42:05
Speaker
Maybe that was the original title, and then i and then the lawyers came knocking. Disney was like, you're not doing that.
01:42:13
Speaker
No way.
01:42:16
Speaker
But yeah, okay, we haven't read this one either. um The backup from the bests is Superman the Man of Steel Annual No. 3, Unforgiven by Priest and M.D. Bright, in which Kal-El becomes a masked vigilante to fight Earth's Kryptonian overlords.
01:42:33
Speaker
Uh, that sounds like it kicks ass.
01:42:37
Speaker
To steal an MD Bright, or a priest at MD Bright? Yeah, man. Tell me more. Talking about the priest in the dark? And this one also has a Mike Mignola cover?
01:42:51
Speaker
yeah man.
01:42:54
Speaker
This, I would, I have no trouble believing this is one of the best. I have not read it, but boy, I should.
01:43:03
Speaker
This looks very familiar to me. It's got got a real thick Batman in it.
01:43:11
Speaker
That is a thick Batman. Damn.
01:43:15
Speaker
It's wild that the first 15 pages of this comic are about Batman.
01:43:22
Speaker
that's That's what was happening at DC Comics in 1994. Yeah, man. Damn, he is thick as hell. that That is one big oval.
01:43:33
Speaker
Yeah, man. This comic looks wild. This one looks fun.
01:43:44
Speaker
It's weird. It's okay. It's weird that it's about Batman, and it's also weird that Superman is barely Superman in it. Yeah. And also Billy Batson's in it. And then when he does become Superman, he's super he's just Superman in a mask.
01:44:02
Speaker
Yeah, man. this This looks good. This looks fun. Uh...
01:44:10
Speaker
Anyway, yeah.
01:44:15
Speaker
Uh... Haven't read it. It does look fun. We were only to able to rank one of these. ah But that one was pretty good, so... mean, it was fine. it was that That's fine.
01:44:26
Speaker
Because ah cause apparently anybody can rank these, and it's fine. Hmm. who needs Who needs us anymore, Matt? Just put us in an open grave, I guess. Patrick? um The next list we have is from Steve Lee, and we've already done a Steve Lee list on this episode.
01:44:44
Speaker
So I'm going to keep going. This is a list from Ian Muir.
01:44:51
Speaker
And these are... ah Okay. Two to choose from. Ant-Man stories that annoyed me less than Quantumania.
01:45:04
Speaker
So, any Ant-Man story? Or, 80s X-Men. Well, I can count the number of Ant-Man stories that I've read on like one hand. so let's I've read a lot more 80s X-Men stories.
01:45:18
Speaker
I have read... all of those Ant-Man stories on that list. Have you really? I absolutely have. Which do you want? to which one do you I picked the last one and I picked wrong, Matt, because I hadn't read any of them.
01:45:33
Speaker
We can do the X-Men one if if you want to. but i mean i i have read all of those Ant-Man stories. Well, there's some X-Men stuff I haven't read, so let's let's see how it goes.
01:45:46
Speaker
Okay. First up, on the Ant-Man list, Heroes for Hire numbers 1 through 19 from 1997 to 1998. I...
01:45:58
Speaker
i Did I read that run? it It's the John Ostrander run on Heroes for Hire. John Ostrander and Roger Stern.
01:46:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a like <unk> like Heroes Reborn era. Heroes for Hire. Yeah. um it was It was Hulk vol call on the team, ah led by Iron Fist.
01:46:25
Speaker
It is... Okay. here's Here's the thing about that Heroes for Hire run. It's fun. It's got good Pascual Ferry art.
01:46:37
Speaker
It is also unbelievable and unbelievably disposable. For a John Ostrander comic ten years after Suicide Squad. but This is when Hercules had no beard and pants.
01:46:55
Speaker
Yep. And that's a bad costume.
01:47:00
Speaker
I mean, this was very much like the Marvel...
01:47:04
Speaker
marvel superheroes B-team of the era. Yeah, I mean, this this might be a secret Defenders book, actually. it kind of is, yeah. I mean, the Hulk's on the team, so.
01:47:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, and it's got Black Knight in it, and yeah, fucking Hercules in his pants, and with no beard. um i remember it being fun, but it is like...
01:47:34
Speaker
it's It's kind of sort of the definition of a mid-comic. Yeah, I mean, like this looks like it is a perfectly readable B-list 1997 Marvel comic.
01:47:48
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this is this is the B-team book to the Avengers. like We talked about like the Avengers becoming an important team 2005. Yeah.
01:48:02
Speaker
when we were talking to Bendis. But really, the Avengers become an and and important team again in 1998. Well, the the book gets good in 1998, and people kind of start paying attention to it.
01:48:17
Speaker
Well, I think it is Busek's plan in 1998 to... I guess it was 1997 that started. No, would have been 1998. 1998. that started no it would have been ninety eight ninety eight um Because Heroes Reborn ran through that whole year, and then they had to do the return. So, yeah, it would have been 98.
01:48:39
Speaker
but So who is this Hulk?
01:48:44
Speaker
Is it not Banner? and you won't because Because Banner was sent to to Heroes Reborn Earth. The Hulk was split in two, remember? is This Hulk talks.
01:48:56
Speaker
This Hulk is just the Hulk, if I remember right. Okay. um because Because, yeah, there were two Hulks. There was the Heroes Reborn Hulk, and then there was a Hulk who was also in the Marvel Universe.
01:49:11
Speaker
um But I want to make sure I have that right. But I think that's i think that's correct. ah That they were both characters.
01:49:23
Speaker
ball both hot um But one of them was Banner and one of them was not. If I'm... Ugh. If I'm remembering right.
01:49:37
Speaker
Let's see. This Hulk is...
01:49:45
Speaker
ahll I'll figure it out. But... I feel like this Heroes for Hire run is like...
01:49:55
Speaker
Right smack dab... boom in the middle of pretty good. Okay. Like, it's pretty good. I'm flipping through it now, and there is a scene transition that Ostrander writes as, and before you can say Kurt Busiek, which is pretty funny.
01:50:14
Speaker
Yeah. Like, the Thunderbolts show up halfway through. um It's got, like, fun Marvel Universe stuff all the way through the run.
01:50:27
Speaker
Yeah, and it looks like number seven is where Ant-Man shows up.
01:50:33
Speaker
Yeah. um It's Banner. It's definitely Banner who's this Hulk. Yeah, I am very unclear on how Heroes Reborn Hulk works, and there is no reason for me to clear up that confusion for myself.
01:50:48
Speaker
No. i I know the Hulk book kept going, Hulk was the one that both universes got, and they just explained it by the Hulk being so split into two two parts, as I recall.
01:51:05
Speaker
yeah um So, that is what it is. um Yeah, it's a pretty good comic. Where do you want to put it? Because I've not read this one.
01:51:19
Speaker
I would say...
01:51:25
Speaker
Probably like... The 1000s, 1100s? That's where the pretty good comics are. I feel like.
01:51:35
Speaker
Alright.
01:51:38
Speaker
Um...
01:51:41
Speaker
Like, it ain't... I'm not gonna put it above the Invisibles.
01:51:47
Speaker
I mean, Matt... I wouldn't be mad at you if you did.
01:51:53
Speaker
I feel like it's like... We have formerly known as the Justice League at 1051.
01:52:01
Speaker
I feel like it's kind of as good as that. It's as good as the new 52 Dial H. We have that at 1064. Alright. I think would put it...
01:52:21
Speaker
i think i would put it
01:52:25
Speaker
Well, now I'm seeing comics that I think are better. ah little lower. it's the It's the trouble with this list. You think you got it, and then you look around. Because Wild Dog 1 through 4 is at 1083. Yeah, Wild Dog pretty good.
01:52:38
Speaker
um don't know how we ranked it that low. That shit's good. ah ah That's how you know that the list is its is its own thing.
01:52:50
Speaker
I think it's better than Batman the Mud Pack.
01:52:56
Speaker
I would put it below the Goon crossover with Hellboy. So it's the new number 1098. The
01:53:05
Speaker
new number 1098 is Heroes for Hire 1997. Yes, that is... And it's issues 1 through 19. It's the whole series.
01:53:18
Speaker
I believe that is Heroes for Hire... No, it's Heroes for Hire Volume 1. Yeah, because it was... ah it was The previous version was not actually called Heroes for Hire. It was Luke Cage, Hero for Hire, and then Power Man and Iron Fist.
01:53:33
Speaker
Right. Okay. ah Fun book. Fun book. I i don't think I would like
Heroes for Hire Costumes Discussion
01:53:42
Speaker
make it you know a recommendation to anyone unless they've read thousands of comics first. mean... i mean You would recommend it to someone after they had read exactly 1097 comics, at least.
01:53:57
Speaker
Correct. Exactly that. does emmen Do you remember Ant-Man doing anything in this book? i don't I don't know why this was necessarily included on an Ant-Man list. i mean i mean as Ant-Man is part of the book, um but that's all I really recall. i I remember way more of the Iron Fist Luke Cage of it all.
01:54:19
Speaker
Because they are definitely the focus of the book throughout. yeah um Luke Cage also gets a new costume that's a bunch of nothing.
01:54:31
Speaker
it's It's like a you know just like a weird desaturation of his old costume. It's it's it's blue instead of yellow, which is weird. like That's a weird choice for... Okay, sure.
01:54:45
Speaker
He's still got his... like Tiara, but it gets rid of the yellow. It's a circlet.
01:54:54
Speaker
Unbelievable. Alright, next up is The Astonishing Ant-Man, numbers 1 through 13. That is from 2015. haven't
01:55:09
Speaker
i haven't read it. Nick Spencer? Ramon Rosanas? about You know what? you know what I haven't read this either. I thought I had. i i was mistaking it for the Irredeemable Ant-Man.
01:55:23
Speaker
Okay, yes, that I have also read. Which I definitely read. This I did not. It feels very much like a Scott Lang. He's in a movie, so we should have a paperback on the stands.
01:55:36
Speaker
Yeah, he's in a movie, so we should have a comic. Kind of comic. ah It seems fine. But it now that I look closer, i have not read this.
01:55:48
Speaker
Finally, there is FF Volume 2, Numbers 1 through 16, from 2012 to 2013. That, I believe, is the
01:56:04
Speaker
ah Matt Fraction FF run. Yeah, which I don't think I ever actually finished. I read it. it's It's a hoot. I bet. I mean, it's like I know about Ms. Thing.
01:56:17
Speaker
Miss Thing, what ah what a what a joy. What a delight. What an incredible character yeah concept. what ah What a great joke.
01:56:30
Speaker
um This is the FF group. that cause What was it? f f The first volume of FF was... That was Future Foundation.
01:56:47
Speaker
Well, this was also this is also Future Foundation. okay. That was Hickman. Hickman did the original FF, the first volume of FF.
01:56:59
Speaker
Yeah, we'll be getting into that with Hickmania. We'll be getting into that with Hickmania. um This is a more kind of like...
01:57:11
Speaker
Just pure fun... ah let's have a different team where it's Scott Lang, Medusa, She-Hulk, and Miss Thing as the FF team, but not as a replacement for the Fantastic Four, because the Fantastic Four is still around.
01:57:31
Speaker
And this is the introduction of like so many FF, Future Foundation supporting characters um who who have persisted like ever since.
01:57:43
Speaker
um I know some of them were in the Hickman run, but like, Dragon Man being part of it, and ah Alex Power, I feel like that is original to this, if I'm not mistaken. and
01:58:03
Speaker
I guess we'll find out. I really ought to read this book. This looks so good. It's so fun. It is ah hoot and a half.
01:58:13
Speaker
And it it was a companion to ah the Fantastic Four book that was coming out at the time as well, which was definitely more of the kind of like – that was the fraction run on Fantastic Four that he was doing with Mark Bagley. So like the Fantastic Four book could be the kind of more serious superhero book, and this could be to the just kind of like goofy fun comic.
01:58:41
Speaker
With, you know, wild monsters and mike out all red pop art and all of that kind of stuff. um it's ah It's a blast. It's a total blast.
01:58:55
Speaker
Yeah, i got I know I've read some of this, but man, I gotta sit down and read the rest of it. it's what What a good bit. Yeah. what a good What good stuff.
01:59:06
Speaker
Miss Thing. I mean, come on. this This is a comics catch-up candidate all day long. Well, I've read it. Well, I mean, you know, you read Berserk, too. That's true.
01:59:17
Speaker
ah But I think we should rank it now, i mean because I've read it. Alright, fine. I was suggesting that we do something fun. I mean, okay. If you want to save it for Comics Catch-Up, then let's do that. I think should save it. Let the people vote.
01:59:35
Speaker
Do they want you to rank it, or do they want us to catch up on it and talk about Miss Thing? I mean, we already have ah Mike Allred comic to catch up on with Silver Surfer. that's That's okay. So next is Hick Mania Run and Wild.
01:59:50
Speaker
And then Black and White Allred all over.
01:59:57
Speaker
we yeah I think we're going to do Silver Surfer next for catch up. and yeah I'm restructuring, Matt. I'm pivoting.
02:00:06
Speaker
art But that we have to do something for catch up. There's a lot of comics, Matt. I will do the okay if you want to not break this now and do ah do this for catch up we could save it for catch up I think we should do it for catch up I think that would be fun okay um then we won't rank it even though one of us has read it um how about Marvel premiere numbers 48 7 through 48 1979
02:00:39
Speaker
oh I have probably read those. that is a That is an Ant-Man. I think this is the introduction of Scott Lang. Oh, I have not read those.
02:00:50
Speaker
Yeah, this is the introduction of Scott Lang. oh Yep, there he is.
02:01:00
Speaker
Your boy David Michelinie. And your other boy, John Byrne. John Byrne. And Bob Layton on art. John Byrne, who I believe you're on record saying, has never said anything weird.
02:01:18
Speaker
Ever. um You said that. I did not say that. I didn't say it. I didn't say it either. Because I think, unlike you, Matt, I think John Byrne, if he had not gone missing in the Bermuda Triangle in 1993...
02:01:33
Speaker
would have maybe said some pretty whack stuff online. You know, as much as I love this bit where you put words in my mouth, and I don't love this bit where you put words in my mouth.
02:01:51
Speaker
I really have a weakness for pretending you like something.
02:01:59
Speaker
Because this is like the third time it's come up tonight. Yep. yep And usually I roll with it and I'm fine with it, but if you if it reaches the point of I think John Byrne never said anything bad, that's where I have to draw the line.
02:02:13
Speaker
Yeah, ah that's you know yeah's fair. Okay. um So we can't rank that one. I think we are out of time. We are now at two hours.
02:02:25
Speaker
So we will read the fraction all red FF at some point and For catch-up.
Future Rankings and Podcast Plans
02:02:35
Speaker
Next for catch-up is the slot all-red Silver Surfer. Because, like, planning anything after Hickmania... Buddy, I don't know how long Hickmania's gonna take.
02:02:51
Speaker
Hickmania may never end. We gotta figure out where to start with Hickmania. That's true. And I don't even know. Like...
02:03:02
Speaker
I think we should probably just start with Avengers.
02:03:07
Speaker
But we'll figure it out. I feel like I have to like make charts and stuff in Hickman style. Well, Matt, I have great news for you.
02:03:18
Speaker
Those charts already exist. He made them, yeah. He made them. If you're looking for charts in the Jonathan Hickman style, I have some great news for you about the Marvel Comics work of Jonathan Hickman.
02:03:32
Speaker
Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll be back ah in May with more comics to rank. ah So come back for that. ah If you want to support us and these specials, go to patreon.com slash warrocketajax and kick in as little as a dollar a month to make sure that we keep doing these specials every single month.
02:03:54
Speaker
That we do ah movie fighters and snack situation, that we do comics catch up, as we've mentioned, that we do the weekly warrocketajax show. All of that stuff is made possible by your support on Patreon.
02:04:10
Speaker
You can get in touch with us by email at warrocketpodcast at gmail.com. That is where you should send your Every Story Ever list if you want to send us one. um You can also ask us questions on Tumblr, warrocketpodcast.tumblr.com.
02:04:25
Speaker
You can follow us on Blue Sky. We're at warrocketajax.com there. And you can join our Discord if you ah ask us nicely for an invitation to Discord, to our Discord server.
02:04:37
Speaker
We will provide you with one if you're nice, and you can join over there. That is where they're doing ranking without us. Unbelievable.
02:04:48
Speaker
WarRocketWiki.com is the fan-run repository of all the information you can want about this show. WarRocket Ajax, the Every Story Ever list is there.
02:04:59
Speaker
um It is reproduced there for you to look at.
02:05:05
Speaker
If you want to find me and my stuff, go to mattdwilson.net to find links to my comics, my books, my other podcasts, and my social medias. Chris, where can people find you? Everybody can find me by going to the-isp.com. That is my website.
02:05:18
Speaker
It has links all the stuff that I do online.
02:05:23
Speaker
Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Forever, forever.
02:05:31
Speaker
From this day on, let every breed of Mongol live together.