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Every Story Ever: May 2025
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That's right! It's May! And we're ranking stories, including some classic Tim Drake Robin stuff.
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Recording & Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
This show is recorded using Zencaster. If you are a podcaster, or you want to be a podcaster, and you want to be able to record remotely, you can do so using Zencaster.
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00:00:28
Speaker
Glorious, love you.
00:00:35
Speaker
We have a list on our website, warrocketajax.com, called Every Story Ever. What we're doing is we're taking lists from our listeners of three comic book stories, and then we are placing those stories on the list from best to worst comic book stories of all time. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the War Rocket Ajax Every Story Ever special.
00:01:05
Speaker
For May 2025.
Hosts' Personal Updates
00:01:10
Speaker
My name is Matt Wilson. Chris Sims is with here with me as always. Yes, I am. And I know what you're saying.
00:01:17
Speaker
I know what you're out there saying. and You're saying, Matt, it's June 1st. You're late.
00:01:26
Speaker
You're right, it's June 1st, which means it's summertime. And that means we're laid back. I'm one time, baby. Hanging out by the pool, driving with the top down, drinking Cheerwine out of a glass bottle, which is what I'm actually doing right now.
00:01:44
Speaker
Summer, summer, summertime.
00:01:49
Speaker
Love that Cheerwine out of a glass bottle. Man, i didn't I didn't get any Cheerwine when I was down south, and I should have. You went to Bojangles so many times.
00:01:59
Speaker
yeah I mean, yes, I did. But i got ah ah what I did at Bojangles was got a zero-sugar Pepsi. I mean, that makes sense. I understand that. Yeah.
00:02:12
Speaker
I'm trying. i can I can get Cheerwine up here, but I have to go to the rich people grocery store and pay like $3 a bottle. And it's only in a glass bottle. And it's only in a glass bottle, yeah. you i I learned that from my trips to...
00:02:28
Speaker
to To buy Cheerwine when I lived in Chicago.
00:02:33
Speaker
Anyway, it's summertime, so yeah, we're a little late. Deal with it. The sunglasses are coming down over my eyes right now. I feel like you're opening this up way more defensively.
00:02:49
Speaker
then perhaps you need to. Yeah, I hope people don't mind that it's June 1st. Chris had to go on a business trip, and so we're a little later starting doing the ESC than normal, but we're doing it. We're here for you.
00:03:02
Speaker
Listen, do you if you want me to remain unemployed, we'll we'll be right on time with all this. That's a great point. That's a great point. ah Anyway, yes, here we are.
00:03:16
Speaker
ah Every Story Ever.
Comic Rankings Overview
00:03:18
Speaker
This is the show where we rank comics but on a big list from best worst. And Chris, would you like to quickly go over the state of the list as it stands currently? Sure thing, Matt.
00:03:31
Speaker
As it stands right now, we have 1,610 items on the Every Story Ever list. Number one, Spider-Man If This Be My Destiny slash the final chapter.
00:03:42
Speaker
Number 1610, Identity Crisis.
00:03:47
Speaker
a A comic that I'm still... i was thinking about this, because I was talking about Hush 2, and how it sucks, but I'm having you know i'm having fun like reading it. The latest issue made me just, ah in the middle of reading it text you and Benito and say, Hush 2 sucks so bad.
00:04:06
Speaker
I have not read it yet, and i'm I'm curious to know if it's going to get to the point where it makes me mad. and it None of it made me actually mad, but it was just like... It's so much of characters just saying...
00:04:23
Speaker
Like, not talking like people, and just saying what's happening. Uh-huh. And, like, that is... That sucks, but it, like... ah It's almost...
00:04:36
Speaker
um what
00:04:39
Speaker
Let's just say, I'm hushed, too. ah ah But, like, Identity Crisis... i i I thought about because I'm like, am I mellowing out in my dotage in my older years?
00:04:54
Speaker
And I'm still mad about that one. um like I'm still, like as I have said many a time, I'll die mad about it. ah But at the middle of the list, our midpoint currently as it stands, 805 and 806. And this should tell you, folks, we've said it before.
00:05:14
Speaker
It's a top-heavy list. Watchmen's number six. ah But at 8.05 and 8.06, which is our midpoint, we have ah Donald Duck, A Christmas for Shacktown.
00:05:26
Speaker
That's a Carl Barks comic. And a lot of those that'll wind up on the middle of a list. And at 8.06, we have Spider Island, which kind of, yeah, should belong right at the middle of a list.
00:05:38
Speaker
So, eh, you know.
00:05:45
Speaker
All right, are you ready to get into our first list, Chris? Oh, Matt. I wish we would. You don't want to talk about all the other stuff that we talk about that people get furious at us about? Because we talk about things that aren't the comics we're ranking?
00:06:00
Speaker
i mean, I guess we have the regular Ajax show to do that on. It'll happen as we go. Yeah, but on this show, people will hear it.
00:06:13
Speaker
Our first list is from Steve Lee.
Discussion on Wasteland Volume 1
00:06:17
Speaker
Now... These are non-superhero comics. ah Okay, well, good luck, Steve.
00:06:24
Speaker
But some of them I'm pretty sure we've read. Okay. The first one on the list is Wasteland Volume 1, Cities in the Dust, Collecting Wasteland Issues 1 to 6, written by Anthony Johnson, penciled by Christopher Mitten.
00:06:40
Speaker
Okay, I think I know the strategy here, because I think I've got a pull quote on Wasteland Volume 1. Uh-huh, uh-huh. so So you know I've read it.
00:06:51
Speaker
Yes. ah Yeah, it's good. It's really good. It's a really good launch to a post-apocalyptic book. ah Very, very fun like Western stuff mixed in like as there kind of always is in post-apocalyptic stuff. like That's one of the kind of go-to genres to mix in with that.
00:07:20
Speaker
ah Certainly loved it at the time. And it there's you know there's certainly nothing about it that I don't think like I don't think it doesn't hold up. you know like It's only from 2006.
00:07:37
Speaker
yeah Although, there's some stuff from 2006 that probably doesn't hold up. i mean Demonstrably, comics' worst year ever. Yeah, that's certainly true.
00:07:50
Speaker
There's also pull quote from Wizard Magazine on one of these issues. Hilarious. When did The Walking Dead launch? ah walking deb was Walking Dead launched whatever year 28 Days Later came out.
00:08:05
Speaker
so So before before this? Yeah. Because I feel like this is a comic that absolutely, without question, got greenlit. Because of The Walking Dead. Because it's it's it's not the same.
00:08:21
Speaker
It started in 2003. So this was three years after Walking Dead. And like. it's It's not the same as Walking Dead. Story wise.
00:08:32
Speaker
But in presentation. It's a post-apocalyptic black and white comic. yes and And like. It is a. like That is an inevitable comparison.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:47
Speaker
Simply by virtue of the fact the way it's presented, you know? Like...
00:08:53
Speaker
It not being in color is a choice. Yes. Well, it's also a choice because it's published by Oni and it's cheaper. Certainly. But like... Oni would publish a black and white comic.
00:09:05
Speaker
But like, i look, I know from experience it is very hard to sell a black and white comic. And so...
00:09:16
Speaker
That's just interesting to me. that hard, Matt. Oh, sorry. I let Robert Kirkman in here. Hey, hey. Well, help me out then, Robbie. Nope. Oh, he's gone. He's gone. Damn it.
00:09:28
Speaker
Damn it. Yeah, man. Sorry. he He dropped by. I think he was looking for Benito, but he came to the wrong but wrong house. Blood and Thunder's good. All right, let's rake this comic. i No, it's good.
00:09:42
Speaker
It's good. I haven't read it all the way through. I'm familiar with it, but I haven't really actually sat down and read it. so I don't know if I finished it. ah Which is very much like the story of a lot of comics I love. No, I definitely finished the first volume. What was submitted was the first volume. but these Do you think the all 60 issues are one big story?
00:10:04
Speaker
i definitely think we could probably rank all 60 issues as one story. It certainly is telling... Like, there's there's stuff set... I mean, you know, this is going to sound like the most obvious thing ever when I say it, but like there's certainly stuff set up in Volume 1 that doesn't immediately pay off, that is kind of building up to like the larger story within.
00:10:28
Speaker
oh think it's probably...
00:10:35
Speaker
I mean, this is actually kind of tough, now that I'm thinking of it. It might... be worth our time to rank this as one story. It's been long enough that I'd have to read all 60 issues.
00:10:49
Speaker
Well, let me ask you this. Yes? Do you feel comfortable ranking Volume 1, and then if we ever get around to it, we could slot in the full series in that spot if it's all consistently good?
00:11:07
Speaker
Yes. Absolutely. Okay. ah I mean, it's good. it's it's ah It's really solid. Christopher Mitten does great artwork in this book.
00:11:18
Speaker
ah it It definitely is kind of the worst thing you can say about it, but also the most accurate thing you can say about it is, yeah, it's a very post-Walking Dead comic.
00:11:31
Speaker
Like, in presentation, in art style, in a lot of ways. Like, I don't think Anthony Johnson and Robert Kirkman are like similar writers, but there's definitely like a vibe that was in comics in this era that I, you know, I don't think I certainly don't truck with the, ah
00:12:07
Speaker
like The idea that like oh this is unintentional... It's not the Asylum Films version of Walking Dead. you know like it's definitely It is a different story. It is like doing its own thing.
00:12:20
Speaker
It's just ah it's just a vibe. But, you know, i mean we've got Walking Dead Volume 1 on here. That's a good comic. Yeah. yeah ah Is it as good as Walking Dead?
00:12:33
Speaker
Number 193, a comic that has only increased, in my estimation, since it came out? No.
00:12:42
Speaker
But I think that, you know, again, top-heavy list, I think putting it in like the high 900s or the low quads is about where it belongs.
00:12:53
Speaker
Walking Dead number 193 currently being number 985 on the list Okay, so you're saying below that?
Exploration of Will Eisner's Works
00:13:00
Speaker
I'm saying probably below that, yeah. ah But the stuff that we have below that includes ah Batman Incorporated, the Gail Simone... Wait, you said Walking Dead 193 is number 983? 85. Thank God. okay Yeah, we're not doing that again.
00:13:17
Speaker
um like I like it better than that Riddler vs. Cluemaster story. Okay. I probably like it better than Midsummer's Nightmare.
00:13:26
Speaker
oh
00:13:31
Speaker
It's probably better than Underworld Unleashed, if we're being honest. Okay. ah
00:13:40
Speaker
The story where Harry Osborn dies? Yeah, i I feel like Harry Osborn's death mattered a lot more to people who aren't you and me.
00:13:50
Speaker
I think we've been told that much. yeah You are correct, yes. Yeah, man.
00:13:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think we'll put it ah right below that Ty Templeton, Bruce Timm Vampirella story. Okay, so it's the new number 989. Yes.
00:14:12
Speaker
Okay. So that is Wasteland Volume 1.
00:14:24
Speaker
2006 from Oni Press. Yeah, I'll put in parentheses Johnston and Mitten.
00:14:33
Speaker
What a fun last name. If you had a spreadsheet, like me.
00:14:39
Speaker
Well, somebody's got to maintain the public list, and that's what I'm doing. That's true. That's true. What a fun last name Mitten is.
00:14:49
Speaker
Second on... Do you think
00:14:54
Speaker
he invented things? Oh, like Mittens are named for a person. He probably didn't invent Mittens, but maybe someone in his family did. Because like why would you call them Mittens? it It has to be named after a person.
00:15:06
Speaker
what What came first? Calling your hands mitts? Or calling mittens mittens? These are all great questions that I don't know the answer to.
00:15:19
Speaker
ah Once again, Benito is yelling at his phone. Because he he I'm sure he knows all this. He's yelling ah all through this episode. Etymology, yeah. ah Second on Steve's list is The Dreamer by Will Eisner.
00:15:40
Speaker
now Now, the Dreamer is ah is is is ah not about Jack Kirby. But it has Jack Kirby in it.
00:15:50
Speaker
It does, yes, that's true. ah it's it's The Dreamer of the title is, I believe, Will Eisner. It's it's you know a lightly fictionalized version of Will Eisner, yes. Yeah.
00:16:05
Speaker
And ah it does have... a pretty great scene with Jack Kirby in this, who is drawn to be about like hobbit sized.
00:16:20
Speaker
He, he's, he's about like, he's about and three foot six. And, uh, when, when the, uh, Jack King,
00:16:32
Speaker
The world of adventure comics is made for him. ah When somebody shows up the studio and tries to to get him into paying for protection money, ah this little fucking Gimli comes out of the studio and is about to throw down.
00:16:53
Speaker
ah and And the line ah at the end of that sequence is, comics is a world of bad guys and good guys. That's why Jack King is here.
00:17:04
Speaker
Uh, yeah, man, I don't, it's, it's weird that this is, it's weird that this is fictionalized to the point that it is. Like, i mean, I guess it's not that weird because, you know, like, like a lot of stuff looking back at golden age comics was like, was fictionalized. I mean, Cavalier and clay is is fictionalized.
00:17:32
Speaker
Uh, But it's like, here's why bad comics make me mad, Matt. i mean, there's a lot of reasons. A lot reasons. I can't think about this book without thinking about that Tom King Rorschach book.
00:17:48
Speaker
Yeah. That's not this book's fault. that that's That's not Will Eisner's fault. It is not Will Eisner's fault at all. No. it would be It would be silly of me to even the think that.
00:18:02
Speaker
But man, it's hard hard to think about this without thinking about how fucking Steve Ticco and Frank Miller were in that book.
00:18:11
Speaker
Speaking of being surprised to see something in a book, I remember this. ah I remember reading the The Dreamer and being like, oh, interesting. These are like somewhat fictional versions of like the Titans of... of early comics and what the comics industry was like in the in the early days and how sort of like
00:18:40
Speaker
weird and low rent the industry was back then. like I mean, it's still pretty low rent, if we're being honest. but yeah Yeah. But like either you know what I mean. I do know what you mean. How how kind of ragtag it all was ah back in the day.
00:18:56
Speaker
And you're like, wow, what ah what a fun book. And then, boom. Tits.
00:19:07
Speaker
Well, Matt, that's how you know it's a graphic novel. I just, like... i don't I don't... This is also not Will Eisner's fault. But I feel like in the decades since he was putting out comics...
00:19:25
Speaker
He's got this reputation as kind of being like the Walt Disney of comics. Even though Walt Disney was also a Walt Disney of comics. Yeah. But like, because he he innovated all these new storytelling techniques, and because his signature looks kind of like Walt Disney's signature, and because his' less and because his last name is Eisner, and Michael Eisner was the CEO of Disney for a while...
00:19:52
Speaker
At least in my mind, and I think in other people's minds too, there's this weird association between Will Eisner and Disney, even though I don't think there ever really was one. And so I'm always just like surprised when like Eisner comics get adult.
00:20:12
Speaker
you know Yeah. i mean well that's how That's how you know that Biff, Bam, Pow, they're not for kids. That's true. That's true. Comics aren't for kids anymore. Yeah, and I'm not you know i'm not ah afraid of of the the female form like you are. Yeah.
00:20:35
Speaker
Yeah, think about that.
00:20:39
Speaker
ah Look, it's probably my favorite Will Eisner book. It's maybe the best one, yeah. I mean, I am a kind of notorious Will Eisner hater.
00:20:52
Speaker
Which I don't, honestly, don't mind saying. i I feel like there's a lot of... I feel like there's a lot of Eisner stuff we kind of don't talk about a whole lot.
00:21:03
Speaker
That I'm not saying we need to. I'm just saying it's kind of weird we don't talk about it a lot. We talk about the spirit, but we ignore a lot of details about it. Yeah, we talk about the spirit. We don't really talk about Ebony.
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. and And there are plenty of examples of comics from that time that didn't do that.
00:21:32
Speaker
I mean, I guess that's another similarity with Disney. Yeah. Racist shit they just want you to forget about. Yeah. But like I think we talk about it with like Disney comics more than people talk about it with Will Eisner.
00:21:46
Speaker
Or Disney. Maybe because we've it's got that, you know... it it's It's so antithetical to what the Disney brand is now. Yeah. I mean, but also like Disney movies ah and like other, not just the comics, but but lots of Disney stuff from 70 years ago.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah. oh Point being... This is probably my favorite one. ah And honestly, like 90% of that is because of that Jack Kirby page.
00:22:19
Speaker
The Jack Kirby page is good. And the story is good. like It
00:22:26
Speaker
it is a topic I'm interested in which is the early days of comics. And it's presented well and is fun to read. yeah actually no Will Eisner absolutely there.
00:22:38
Speaker
that's interesting. and that's interesting Yeah. Like, no no getting around that one. it's it's kind of It's kind of the comic about comics. Like, there are a lot of movies about movies.
00:22:54
Speaker
But I think there are more movies about movies than there are comics about comics.
00:23:00
Speaker
that is That really depends on what you mean by comics about comics, because I feel like there's a lot of comics about comics. In an abstract way, in a symbolic way.
00:23:13
Speaker
Okay. This one is directly about comics, about the the making of comics, yeah. Yeah.
00:23:22
Speaker
So, you think this is better than A Contract with God, which is at 1055? I like it better than A Contract with God. Again... I'm a hater.
00:23:36
Speaker
A little higher up then? eight hundred to nine hundred
00:23:41
Speaker
Let's see. ah let's let's Let's take a look-see. At number 800, what do we have? ah The Cat and the Cosmic Cube from Spidey Super Stories number 39, which introduced the Thanos copter, which made it into a movie.
00:23:56
Speaker
That's true. Incredible. Which, honestly, honestly... Look, I'm going to go ahead and say it. People wouldn't even know about that shit if it wasn't for me.
00:24:06
Speaker
That's all they're... I'm putting a stamp on it, Matt. They wouldn't know about that shit if it was not for your boy Christopher Jay. I would probably say that the Dreamer is better than that.
00:24:23
Speaker
ah yeah I mean, yeah. Almost inarguably for all but the greatest of haters. Yeah. ah
00:24:39
Speaker
I mean, i don't think it's as i don't think it's as good as that Paul Lauer G.I. Joe comic, though. Okay. but's That's an underrated masterpiece, man.
00:24:51
Speaker
That's at $7.93? $7.93, yeah. seven ninety three yeah It's not as good as Orion's Mob in the Deep Six. It's better than the Flash Wednesday comic, though. Alright, then we can put it there.
00:25:03
Speaker
The new number 795 is I feel got by this, man. I feel that like I fell right into the trap of like a bunch non-superhero comics, and it's ones you know I've read.
00:25:20
Speaker
Well, this would definitely this one you've definitely read, too.
Conan the Barbarian's Impact
00:25:24
Speaker
Conan and the Barbarian, issue four, The Tower of the Elephant, written by Roy Thomas, penciled by Barry Windsor Smith. Yeah, dog.
00:25:32
Speaker
Yeah, I've read that shit. We all know you've read that shit. Yeah, man. Conan climbs up a tower. Now he climbed right up it. i I really enjoy how much of a sweet spot you have for Roy.
00:25:47
Speaker
Like, i think I think, I feel like the rest of comics... has just
00:25:57
Speaker
not not tossed Roy out, but but the the reassessment of Roy has not been good.
00:26:05
Speaker
You... I mean, look. roy is...
00:26:18
Speaker
so controversial. complicated and controversial. Roy is complicated. Yes. Roy was the second editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics. You know, Roy did a lot.
00:26:32
Speaker
Roy... Roy didn't necessarily deserve to catch strays from Jack Kirby, you know? House Roy.
00:26:43
Speaker
ah Again, That's devastating. i would I would turn to fucking dust.
00:26:52
Speaker
It's like, Roy Thomas ah and Drake have been the most obliterated by a hater. Yeah. And it wouldn't even Roy.
00:27:05
Speaker
Like, Roy wouldn't even who Jack was mad at. He just caught, he was, like as you said, he caught strays. Caught strays. Like... Yeah.
00:27:17
Speaker
yeah But like... I think, like...
00:27:23
Speaker
You gotta to give it to Roy. You know? Like, it's... And I don't even think it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you do not under any circumstances have to give it to Roy. But, no, you kinda just gotta give it to him.
00:27:39
Speaker
You gotta give some of it to Roy. I don't think you gotta to give everything he says he deserves. like He did not co-create Wolverine.
00:27:50
Speaker
Period. He did not co-create Wolverine. He said, we need some international superheroes. Why don't you make a Canadian guy and call him Wolverine? That's it. That's what Roy did.
00:28:02
Speaker
Is that creating Wolverine? Well, we still say Bob Kane created Batman. It's as much creating Wolverine as Bob Kane creating Batman. Yes, that is true. But I mean, did Roy create... My favorite story about Roy... Because I used to work at a shop where ah Roy would buy his comics every now and then.
00:28:24
Speaker
ah Roy roy ah moved to South Carolina ah to raise llamas. Which I love. And... I remember him talking to someone I worked with about how when the MCU was like really kind of getting going, ah they sent him like ah page of characters that he created for him to sign off on.
00:28:55
Speaker
Like a single-spaced... page of, you know, if we use this character, this you know you'll get money and a special thanks. Or whatever. You know?
00:29:06
Speaker
yeah And ah Roy sent them back ten more pages. ah care Of characters.
00:29:15
Speaker
And like, yeah, probably some of it was like, I said, let's come up let's do a Canadian superhero and call him Wolverine. But also, some of it was probably like, the fucking Vision. You know?
00:29:27
Speaker
Well, yeah, I'm sure, yeah. Like, the the Squadron Supreme. you know, Roy did a lot of shit. and Undeniably, Roy did a lot. You can't you cannot deny that yet.
00:29:41
Speaker
But anyway, this Conan comic. Well, the funny thing about Roy in this Conan comic is, Roy didn't like fantasy. Like, Roy was not a, like, sword and sorcery guy. He's not, like, a D&D guy, you know?
00:29:57
Speaker
So, when Marvel gets the Conan license, you know, right before, but like, shortly before there's going to be a Conan movie, and when fantasy stuff and D&D is going to hit big, it's, like, the perfect timing.
00:30:14
Speaker
Like, there's a reason Conan, like, Matt, how many issues do you think Conan ran? and
00:30:22
Speaker
Uh, it ran for a while, right? Uh, yeah, dog. couple hundred, probably. Uh, 275 issues. Almost 300, yeah. it ran for 23 years.
00:30:37
Speaker
Roy wrote all of them. Actually, no, that's not true. Roy wrote 1 to 115, and then 240 275. chunk. chunk. But, like...
00:30:47
Speaker
a big chunk ah big chunk but like If you go back and read them, they're fucking good, dude. and And look, a lot of that has to do with Barry Wintersmith.
00:30:59
Speaker
i mean Who is yes of one of the all-timers, but like they're incredibly readable comics. oh like I will give Barry Wintersmith credit for the fact that Conan will fucking, like in this comic, he fucking palm strikes a dude through a table.
00:31:19
Speaker
Like that, that whips.
00:31:22
Speaker
Oh,
00:31:26
Speaker
shit. Priest wrote some of these. Yeah. Under his real name. I think he did legally change his name. Or, yeah, his previous name, I suppose. yeah ah Yeah, man.
00:31:43
Speaker
Roy's good at this specific thing. i don't like ah Weirdly enough, I prefer this to virtually all of Roy's superhero work. I think he does a great job on Conan. Do you think, then, Roy is just better at adaptation?
00:32:00
Speaker
I think that's probably part of it. I think you know it's it's certainly... It's certainly... it's certainly
00:32:08
Speaker
It's in many ways easier when a thing is laid out already and you don't have to come up with something ah whole cloth.
00:32:20
Speaker
Not to say that adaptation is easy. Adaptation is a skill of its own. Yeah, it's yeah very much different. like yeah dont don't get it Don't get it twisted about my my feelings about adaptation. Adaptation can be very difficult.
00:32:34
Speaker
ah But I will say that one of the things that i personally feel is true about Roy's work is that I think he's often a little too precious.
00:32:54
Speaker
I think he likes, like, he's very interested in doing all that Golden Age stuff he likes to do. hu Which, you know, hell, there's nothing wrong with that.
00:33:09
Speaker
You know, what what what are you going to get Roy Thomas for, if not that? ah But I feel like, you know, a lot of that stuff I'm just kind of fundamentally not interested in.
00:33:22
Speaker
Whereas Conan, like, there's there is nothing that Roy would be... cutesy about or like kind of too hung up on to get in his way.
00:33:41
Speaker
If that makes sense. you Do you you know what I mean? Yeah, I get it. Yeah.
00:33:48
Speaker
Like it's just going to be good old good old fashioned Conan going to beat the shit out of somebody comics.
00:33:58
Speaker
I love it. Now, this is not, I will say, my favorite issue of Conan. It's a good one, but not my favorite. Because, Matt, as you well know, my favorite one is the one where Conan beats the shit out of a gorilla that thinks it's a wizard.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yes. Yes. One of the greatest stories of all time. One of the greatest comics of all time. Really good. Yeah. That gorilla thought he was a wizard.
00:34:27
Speaker
And you know what happens the wizards in Conan comics? They get fucked up. Yeah, it's 201. 100% of the time.
00:34:38
Speaker
Conan doesn't fuck wizards, man.
00:34:44
Speaker
There's something really interesting about Barry Windsor Smith's take on Conan. He's like... interestingly lean his build.
00:34:55
Speaker
He's, he's, he's lean is the word for it. He's like thin and wiry. Yeah. And I think, you know, maybe that's because, you know, obviously this is pre Schwarzenegger. So there wasn't that kind of, you know, um, like they didn't, it's not going, it's not based on a specific idea of Conan.
00:35:21
Speaker
Right. ah But also, it's like a lot of what Conan does and like a lot of what he does in this issue is like he climbs. He's from the hills.
00:35:34
Speaker
He's more athletic than – his build is more, quote-unquote, athletic than the kind of bodybuilder build that he would have yeah later. yeah which i Which I like that. and i ah like I always prefer it when ah people draw Batman that way as well.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah, man. Barry Windsor Smith was a pretty good at doing comics. Pretty good. Yeah. I like this issue. I think it's solid.
00:36:04
Speaker
Alright, give me a number. make Make a Sumerian guy and call him Conan.
00:36:09
Speaker
Created. Created. By Roy Thomas.
00:36:17
Speaker
i don't know, but like what other Conan stuff do we have on here? Let's see. let's yeah let's look I will say, the one where he fights the gorilla is better. But if you want a single issue of Conan, this is kind of the one to read.
00:36:33
Speaker
you know all right He fights a dude, he fights lions, he fights fucking spiders. There's an elephant god. It's a lot of what Conan is, yeah. um Rogues in the house.
00:36:44
Speaker
Yeah, boy. Is it 233? That's my shit right there. The next one down is the life and death of Conan. ah Which we did for a catch-up, I believe.
00:36:55
Speaker
The Jason Aaron run? Yeah, it was really good. Yeah. That was the 2019 Jason Aaron run. 975 is Tower of the Elephant. oh That's the Busek Nord version of Tower of the Elephant.
00:37:16
Speaker
Yeah. So, is this better or worse than the Busek Nord version of the same story? Yeah. hi think it's probably not well god that's really tough to say they're like it is the same story but they are kind of very different you know like yeah it's tough uh I think I would
00:37:44
Speaker
god they're like almost they're almost the same you know in terms of quality you mean yeah uh
00:37:54
Speaker
i know, man. It's pretty good. It's got a weird talking elephant god in it.
00:38:02
Speaker
And a wizard that... I mean, guess guess what happens that dude?
00:38:10
Speaker
ah I think it... i i I think I would put it just below. Like, literally one spot below. Okay. Fine.
00:38:22
Speaker
Fine.
00:38:25
Speaker
976 then is Conan the Barbarian number four Tower of the Elephant
00:38:40
Speaker
ah by Thomas and Barry Wintersmith Smith Smith Smith yeah okay okay That's it for Steve's list.
00:38:56
Speaker
Thank you for sending that in, Steve. Steve, you got me. You got on that one. Interesting stuff to talk about there.
00:39:05
Speaker
All right. Our next list is from Ian Muir. And we have two choices here. Ant-Man stories that annoyed me less than Quantumania.
00:39:17
Speaker
Or 80s X-Men. Wait, did we not do this list already? No.
00:39:24
Speaker
Oh, I think we did. i think we did, yeah. How did I skip the non-superhero? Oh, maybe we did the list from Steve Lee. Maybe we did two lists from Steve Lee in one episode or something. I think so.
00:39:35
Speaker
I think that's what it was. Okay, tell me if we've done this one. This is from Alyssa Ferguson. It's ah some Grunies stories.
00:39:47
Speaker
some Some of Alyssa's favorite stuff from the Grunies. Have we not spoken of Grunies enough? We haven't ranked all of it. All right. Cap Wolf. We've ranked Cap 350.
00:40:01
Speaker
God, Cap 350 is good. And maybe one or two other things from it. And I think we did Streets of Poison. Streets of Poison is bad. All right.
Red Skull and US Agent Storylines
00:40:13
Speaker
First up is Out of His Skull.
00:40:16
Speaker
From Captain America number 369 by Mark Grunewald and Mark Bagley, the story where the Red Skull loses his mind and the hole Magneto put him in and is only saved by his hallucination of Captain in America. That's pretty good. That's a good one. Yeah, man, that's that's pretty fucking good, actually. when When the Red Skull is down in that hole, losing his mind, and he hates...
00:40:44
Speaker
Captain, and like, it's it's because he fucking hates Captain America that he gets through it. Yeah. It's like, it's the opposite of, it's the opposite of, like, Spider-Man doing the thing.
00:40:55
Speaker
it's a it's It is the exact opposite of Spider-Man thinking about Aunt May and the people he loves to get out of a tough situation. Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:06
Speaker
yeah Like, I cannot die here. I hate that motherfucker too much.
00:41:13
Speaker
That's very good. Now, we should note that that is not the main story in that issue. And Alyssa says these are backups in the submission.
00:41:25
Speaker
um This is this is a so a short backup at the end of of that issue. It's good. Like...
00:41:37
Speaker
Like Red Skull deciding that he hates Captain America so much for giving a shit that he's going to get out of this hole. Yeah. that And also like, this is going sound mean, and I don't mean it to.
00:41:57
Speaker
It's also kind of some of Bagley's best work.
00:42:02
Speaker
Especially when you consider that it's a comic with no backgrounds. It's all black backgrounds, yeah. Yeah, because he's in the dark. But Bagley uses that black background for great effect, particularly when Cap shows up and he only draws the white parts of his costume.
00:42:18
Speaker
Right, he's just an A, a star, white stripes, and the star in circle from his shield. And that's it.
00:42:28
Speaker
Yeah, man. Captain America showing up being like, hey Skull, this isn't how I wanted it to end. This is vengeance. Don't give up. And Red Skull going, fuck you, man.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah. Like, ah he hates him so much, dude. I hate you for being more good than I am evil. Oh, that's good.
00:42:52
Speaker
That's good comics.
00:42:57
Speaker
Good ass comics, man. Like, yeah, Captain America would be like, I don't want you to die. And then Skull's like, fuck, then I guess I don't either. Yeah.
00:43:10
Speaker
Because all the ah all of his other hallucinations, which are his dad, Hitler, ah ah his mom...
00:43:21
Speaker
ah No, his daughter, Cynthia. so His daughter, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Arnim Zola. Yeah. ah Like, all up and they're like, you should fucking kill yourself. Yeah. Dude.
00:43:31
Speaker
Yeah. And he's like, damn, maybe I will. the Cap's like, come on, Skull. Toughen up.
00:43:41
Speaker
Come on, dog. Don't you want to fight me again? Don't you want to fight me, Captain America, one more time?
00:43:50
Speaker
This isn't how I wanted it to go. We're enemies, but there's got to be an even playing field, whatever whatever it is he says. It's great. God, it's so it's so good.
00:44:03
Speaker
It's so fucking good. Okay, so...
00:44:10
Speaker
It's better than the Superior Stratagem, I think. Yeah, i I don't think we're going to have a lot of argument on that one. Also, you know what? Shout out to Mark Grunewald for realizing that this wasn't a whole issue's worth of comic.
00:44:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this was when they had to do, for whatever reason, I guess they had to do these
00:44:41
Speaker
backups because every issue had one. Yeah. um For whatever reason. There was the one that like followed Diamondback.
00:44:52
Speaker
Yeah. I recall. ah But anyway, um Acts of Vengeance is at number 445. Well, it ain't that good.
00:45:04
Speaker
Okay. The whole story, including Cap 350, is at 447.
00:45:13
Speaker
Cap vs. 50's Cap is at 504, which is from much earlier. i think it's i think it's better than that. Okay.
00:45:21
Speaker
Is it better than
00:45:25
Speaker
Suicide Squad number 20, Captain Boomerang versus Zombies?
00:45:32
Speaker
That's a pretty good comic, actually, Matt. but That comic is so much better than it has any right to be based on that title. Yeah. Or based on that summary, I guess.
00:45:45
Speaker
that That description, yeah. Yeah.
00:45:53
Speaker
I don't
00:45:56
Speaker
know, man. Why are you asking me? all right let's I don't think it's better than Agent X, numbers 1 through 7. Agent is pretty good. It could be better than Sergeant Rock Going Down Easy from the DC Holiday Special 2017. And that is a Tom King comic, so who knows?
00:46:16
Speaker
Who knows? We don't know. I think, yeah, I think it goes, i think it goes right under, right under agent X. Yeah. Number five Oh two. All right. Number five Oh two is captain America.
00:46:30
Speaker
ah out of his skull from cap number three, three, six, nine, 60, damn she fine.
00:46:44
Speaker
Cap number three. Nice. Alright, next is Man of Straw from Captain America number 383 by Mark Grunewald, Mark Bagley, and Dan Panosian.
00:46:56
Speaker
That's the U.S. agent story where he finds out how what right-winger and left-winger died after he blew them up, confesses his sins to a scarecrow, tries to set himself on fire, and realizes he should try to be less of a piece of shit.
00:47:09
Speaker
What issue that? 383. 383. Oh, man. Oh, man. What three eighty three oh man oh man what a
00:47:19
Speaker
That's all the wild shit that happens in this run at once. Yes, that's the 50th anniversary issue where the main story is bonkers.
00:47:30
Speaker
Yeah. Absolutely bananas main story where Captain America meets fucking John Henry and Paul Bunyan. Yeah, he meets hes Johnny Appleseed, Pecos Bill...
00:47:44
Speaker
Paul Bunyan, John Henry, and Uncle Sam. Here's what's weird about that, and we might have talked about this on the episode. Johnny Appleseed was a real guy. Yeah. Like, Johnny Appleseed, which I kind of didn't realize for a long time, Johnny Appleseed was real.
00:48:02
Speaker
Yeah. I felt like I was i was reading the fucking Human Fly, the wildest superhero ever, because he's real.
00:48:12
Speaker
is peco's was pay ah So Pecos Bill was not real? Pecos Bill is definitely not real. Because that like it is hard to know with some of those legendary figures of who's like real and not. Because Wild Bill was real.
00:48:24
Speaker
Buffalo Bill was real. Yes. ah But not Pecos Bill. Okay. Yeah, man. But Johnny Appleseed is far more real than those other dudes.
00:48:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:40
Speaker
Now I've got get Low stuck in my head.
00:48:44
Speaker
There could be worse things. I mean, yeah, that's true. But yeah, that ah that US Agent story is bananas.
00:48:56
Speaker
Yeah, man. it's It's kind of great. like i i It's kind of great, but also like
00:49:07
Speaker
there are better things in the run. like It's bonkers, but it' like
00:49:15
Speaker
it verges on silly. like
00:49:19
Speaker
us Agent is digging up his buddy's graves with his shield.
00:49:26
Speaker
Yeah, man. like You were talking about some of the other story being some of Bagley's best work. this I would not put in that category. It's fine.
00:49:39
Speaker
I mean, some of the problem is it's like breakdowns and finishes. Yeah, and Dan Panosian would have been like pretty young at the time, think. And a colorist I've never heard of.
00:49:54
Speaker
And like this story this story is like half flashback. That's all sepia-toned, which does not look good. Hmm, yeah. yeah
00:50:08
Speaker
That's my biggest complaint about it. it's like It's not a it's not like super nice story to look at. Yeah. It kind of gets low.
00:50:20
Speaker
That's true. It does kind of get low. Yeah. Just like Lil Jon. What?
00:50:27
Speaker
Okay. Sorry, I meant what? Okay. um Yeah, I think the story's fine. I think it's not as good as... the ah the The Red Skull one, like by a considerable margin.
00:50:41
Speaker
No, that Red Skull one is a gosh darn hoot and a half. Yeah. oh Which is funny, because it is about a Nazi contemplating suicide and ultimately not doing it.
00:50:54
Speaker
Which is wild to say, yeah, that story's a hoot. But here we are. Return to Skull Houses at 540. That's better than this, I think. Which one of them comics got Doughboy in it?
00:51:09
Speaker
That might actually be Return to Skull House. ah Now that I think of it. He ain't ever getting over.
00:51:18
Speaker
if i' work if i This is my promise. If I ever get to write a Marvel comic, I'll put Doughboy in it and I'll try to get him over. Matt, don't.
00:51:32
Speaker
This is my promise to you. He's not gonna. Okay, Return to Skull House is not the one with Doughboy in it. It's a different one. he's he's not He's not getting over.
00:51:46
Speaker
I'll try to get him over.
Character Dynamics in Captain America
00:51:49
Speaker
That's my promise. Man Without a Country is at 593. That's better. Blood on the Moors is 600. on the Moors is lot better. If you're going to use your shield for doing anything...
00:51:59
Speaker
Use it to cut that motherfucker head off. Yeah, dog. 21st Century Blitz is 832. 321 to 322 is at 843. What happens
00:52:10
Speaker
those issues? Is that the start of... 823? 820... Okay. Okay.
00:52:14
Speaker
what happens in those issues
00:52:20
Speaker
is that the start of
00:52:24
Speaker
eight twenty three oh eight twenty okay 321 and 322 is at 843. That's the story where Cap kills a member of Ultimatum. Kills a member of Ultimatum, yeah.
00:52:38
Speaker
Yes. If you feel real bad about it. That's probably better as well. Probably. Operation Rebirth is 876. The Mystery is 916.
00:52:49
Speaker
eight seventy six
00:52:54
Speaker
the mystery of x is at nine sixteen
00:53:00
Speaker
what What if Captain America were revived revived today is 951?
00:53:07
Speaker
Cap Wolf is at 954. This is the same spirit as Cap Wolf, I feel like. It's definitely not as good as Cap Wolf. It's in the same spirit, though. The US s agent talks to scarecrow, like has a conversation.
00:53:21
Speaker
Haunting of Skull Houses. He about Jesus Christ to the scarecrow, Matt. Ha ha ha. Haunting of Skull House is 981. That's the one with Doughboy in it.
00:53:36
Speaker
I admire that you that you think you could get Doughboy over. I'm not saying I think I could. I'm saying i would try.
00:53:46
Speaker
i mean, what why would you try if you didn't think you could, Matt?
00:53:52
Speaker
Well, i try sometimes I try things... not knowing if I will succeed.
00:54:01
Speaker
That's all I'm saying.
00:54:04
Speaker
That's weird. i and I've never done that in my life. ah No, that story does not have Doughboy in it. Doughboy came even later in another story involving Skull House.
00:54:16
Speaker
But I think it's in here somewhere.
00:54:21
Speaker
Like in the mid-900s somewhere. Yeah. problem yeah i think Yeah, I think you're right. like It's definitely it's like not as good as any of the other stuff you've mentioned, I don't think.
00:54:33
Speaker
Okay, might be in the upper 900s then. ah Yeah, like it's not as good as CapWolf. It's not as good as Transformers The Meets the Eye Volume 1.
00:54:45
Speaker
It's not as good as the Gelsamon Red Sonja...
00:54:52
Speaker
Number 1000 is currently Don't Look Now, but it's Doctor Doom. Yeah. Which is the Daredevil. but What a title. Jesus, dudes.
00:55:05
Speaker
Like, I do i do not...
00:55:12
Speaker
I don't think it's as good as that. Okay. Okay. Is it? I don't know, man. It's hard for me to say. i don't think i think you're right. I think it's not as good as that. Okay, it's not as good as that Uncanny X-Men issue, then.
00:55:25
Speaker
I don't think it's good that Power Man and Iron Fist issue, either. It's exactly as good as Hot Claws for Hanukkah, which is at 1014. It's probably better than Hot Claws for Hanukkah. It's not as good as Sluggo's Flat Gun, though.
00:55:38
Speaker
Okay, so it's the new number 1014. Yeah. Hot Claws for Hanukkah, man. What was going on with that? I still don't know.
00:55:51
Speaker
Captain America, Man of Straw. I mean, I'm i'm putting U.S. Agent Man of Straw. Captain America's not in this story. I mean, that's true. But it's in a Captain America comic.
00:56:03
Speaker
Captain America number 383. Okay. Okay.
00:56:07
Speaker
okay
00:56:10
Speaker
I do like that Mark Grunewald was committed to you, the reader, knowing that John Walker was really fucked up. He was so committed to it. So committed to it.
00:56:24
Speaker
The last one doesn't have an overall title, but it's the story where Diamondback gets kidnapped by Crossbones. so We find out her origin. She goes in the Red Skull hole, steals Cap's blood, finds out Cutthroat is her brother.
00:56:35
Speaker
Cutthroat gets killed, she gets injected with cat blood, and is eventually saved by Cap and the Falcon her herself. That's from Captain America 396, then backups in 399-400, full stories, 409-410. There is no comic that has much stuff didn't need that.
00:56:50
Speaker
four ah nine through four ten
00:56:54
Speaker
there is no comic that has as much stuff as i'm like o don't didn't need that That I'm also like, this kicks ass.
00:57:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But like, ah there's a lot of crossbones, diamondback stuff that I absolutely did not need. Yeah. In that story. And look, when I say things like, I fucking love crossbones, you need to understand that I mean, i love that he's a huge piece of shit.
00:57:25
Speaker
Which is what he is. Like... rom low like i love I love that he is an uncomplicated asshole.
00:57:38
Speaker
ah Worst thing about this story, beyond that, Diamondback gets a new costume. Diamondback's original costume and pink hair are the best. That's why they went back to it. ah While this is happening at the same time as Cap is a werewolf fighting Wolverine.
00:57:56
Speaker
But yeah, man. Now, did we include these Diamondback backups when we... when we... ah or Yeah, these Diamondback backups when we did Cap Wolf? Probably not, because they are separate stories. They have a title page. It's a separate story, yeah. It's it's and an entirely separate story.
00:58:15
Speaker
don't know, man. I feel like...
00:58:20
Speaker
Diamondback... I don't know if it's correct to say that Diamondback got like done dirty by... ah by the Groonies, but there was certainly, I think, more potential for Diamondback that didn't happen.
00:58:44
Speaker
I think I know why. i think I know what the thought process was, because all of this is an attempt to be a redemption arc for Diamondback. Yeah.
00:58:55
Speaker
And the thinking at the time... Because of the time she she killed that guy, yeah. Or that that lady, I guess. Well, she played some role in the death of Porcupine, right?
00:59:09
Speaker
So there was that. Yeah, I guess there was that. But I meant when she um drowned that lady. Yeah, yeah. that She also drowned that lady. But the drowning of Snapdragon came kind of in the middle of this. Because it happened after she got kidnapped.
00:59:27
Speaker
Yeah. By... ah crossbo Anyway, my point is this.
00:59:34
Speaker
There are things about... Okay, so I think Grunewald thought there had to be a redemption arc because otherwise she couldn't be Captain America's girlfriend. yeah Captain America's girlfriend has to be morally forthright.
00:59:51
Speaker
And so this was all this work that To make her a morally upright and forthright character, which also involves her having a different haircut, which... Get out of here, Mark. Yeah, she can't she can't have that wild haircut anymore. She can't have pink hair.
01:00:13
Speaker
are you kidding?
01:00:15
Speaker
Looking like some kind of punk girl?
01:00:21
Speaker
a punker? She can't be a punker. Anyway, the the point is, this is all in service of trying to get her to a place that then ended up falling apart anyway.
01:00:36
Speaker
Like, she ends up sacrificing herself
01:00:45
Speaker
to Superior, or becoming Superior's right-hand woman to save Cap. It's weird and complicated and, you know. Things went in a different direction. But I get what the idea was.
01:00:59
Speaker
I don't think the execution... I think some of the execution is great. And I think some of the execution is a little bit antiquated in its thinking. Yeah, a little little dodgy, i think, is a ah way to put it.
01:01:13
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:16
Speaker
So, it's up and down. I think it's an up and down story. Definitely swings and roundabouts. Yes. I do think it's better than Man of Straw.
01:01:28
Speaker
Yeah, I also think that. I think it is impossible for virtually anything that involves Diamondback to be worse than that story. um no like But like all the stuff where...
01:01:42
Speaker
Crossbones keeps her in the dungeon and is like you know kind of like very casual. This is what I mean when I say that I love Crossbones for being an uncomplicated piece of shit. like He's just very casually torturing Diamondback.
01:01:55
Speaker
Right. he's He is not...
01:01:59
Speaker
ah What's the word? Conflicted. yeah About doing bad things. Yeah, he's like, hey, I'm gonna starve you. And... ah ah You know... I'm going to starve you and try and break psychologically and, don't know, make you betray Captain America, i think.
01:02:17
Speaker
but yeah i think that's what I'm going to do. And that's my job. Yeah, and that's my job. I work for the Red School. That's my job, and I'm just doing my job. yeah And and like I want to make my boss happy.
01:02:28
Speaker
yeah The other day, David Wolkin texted me, imagine Tim Robinson playing Guy Gardner.
01:02:37
Speaker
Fuck. Yeah, I think it's a good idea. Fuck. but That went mad. But also, imagine Tim Robinson playing Crossbones.
01:02:50
Speaker
ah Yeah, I'm just going to keep you down here. and ah It's big deal. you're just It'll be fine down here. You'll be fine. I'm going to a little bit of torture.
01:03:02
Speaker
It's just a little bit of torture. You like you won't even know what's happening. Imagine... like imagine fucking Crossbones like throwing that fast food like on the ground in the filthy ah Fallout shelter and then being like, heard there's a new Marvel out. It's supposed to be nuts.
01:03:20
Speaker
i I have to see Friendship so bad. i think I'm going to go see Friendship on my birthday. Oh, nice, nice, nice. ah Anyway, is this better than Cap Wolf?
01:03:41
Speaker
He's really processing. He's really processing this. yeah It's really... it's Look, it's you can hear the gears. Yeah. It's... I don't
01:03:52
Speaker
know, man. That's the thing. Wolf's pretty good. Cap Wolf is... Okay, here's the thing about Cap Wolf. Cap Wolf is an unabashedly fun read that you don't have to...
01:04:10
Speaker
give anybody any caveats about this story.
01:04:17
Speaker
i don't think you could do that. Yeah. Yeah. There, there is a lot in, in this that is kind of like,
01:04:26
Speaker
but yeah, yeah. I think, I think you nailed it, Matt. I think I would put it below.
01:04:35
Speaker
Is it below Orion number 21 through 24, Blind Man's Bluff?
01:04:43
Speaker
Probably not. Probably not below it. I like that comic. So above it.
01:04:54
Speaker
Yeah, probably above it. but But I do like that comic, yeah. Batman Adventures Annual No. 2, Demons, is at 966. Metropolis 900 Miles is at 967.
01:05:06
Speaker
The Silver Age from 2000 is at 965. up but Agamemno? That's what I'm talking about. ah
01:05:17
Speaker
It's better than US 1. Okay. However, it's not that much better because US 1 is secretly very good. I don't think it's better than Batman The Shadow. I don't think it it is either.
01:05:29
Speaker
Alright, so it's the new number 963. And we're just going to call it Captain America
01:05:39
Speaker
Diamondback Crossbones Story in Backups.
01:05:51
Speaker
I don't have room to put all it like the individual issues this ran through. Yeah. Because it is it is like a weirdly...
01:05:59
Speaker
complicated It's not in every issue. It's in some. It goes on for like... I mean, you you know you read the issues at the start. It goes on for like two years.
01:06:10
Speaker
Yeah, it goes on for a long time. So on the list, it's just going to be that. It's just going to be Diamondback, Crossback Story, and Backups. ah Because I think that's the best way to identify it.
01:06:22
Speaker
Remember when Diamondback started Bad Girls, Inc. and then immediately quit Bad Girls, Inc.? Because, well, I mean, she had a good reason. she yeah she She died.
01:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, I know. It was just weird. Yeah. It's like weird. They introduced Bad Girls, Inc., and then like the next thing that happened was that Bad Girls, Inc. was essentially disbanded.
01:06:49
Speaker
Well, to it was it continued it just without Diamondback. yeah But yeah, it's weird to like have a concept and then have the... It's kind of like... um I don't know everything about the Judgment Day.
01:07:03
Speaker
But I know that Edge started it and then immediately got kicked out.
01:07:09
Speaker
So it's kind of like that.
01:07:14
Speaker
DC high volume Batman. The Dark Knight's definitive DC comic stories. Adapted directly for audio for the very first time.
01:07:25
Speaker
Fear. I have to make them afraid. He's got motorcycle. Get after him I'll have you shot. You mean blow up the building. From this moment on, none of you are safe.
01:07:38
Speaker
New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts.
01:07:46
Speaker
Chris, our next list is from Lou Shoemaker.
Tim Drake as Robin
01:07:49
Speaker
These are three early Tim Drake stories. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. First is Batman numbers 455 to 457, in which people around Gotham are committing random acts of violence, and Tim proves he's ready to be Robin by figuring out Scarecrow is behind it. Yeah, that's pretty good one.
01:08:11
Speaker
I think.
01:08:15
Speaker
Okay. i think I think that's pretty, pretty good.
01:08:21
Speaker
I'm going to have to remind myself of some details of that story. It's not the first Tim Drake story, but it is kind of like the first Tim Drake as Robin. so In fact, I think this is the one where he wears Dick's costume.
01:08:36
Speaker
Do you know what that story's called? ah I refreshed my memory, Matt. It's called Identity Crisis. Yeah. Wow, okay, going to have to enter that on the list.
01:08:48
Speaker
it's ah It's by Alan Grant and no Norm Brayfogle. Hey, you know who's better than Brad Milter and I'll say it, Rags Morales? Alan Grant and Norm Brayfogle?
01:08:59
Speaker
Yeah, dog. What issue is what she was this? it's four It starts with runs through Yeah, ah
01:09:12
Speaker
yeah man ah This one is... It's pretty good. like This is kind of my weakest area of Batman knowledge.
01:09:24
Speaker
in In the like like the kind of early 90s, pre-Nightfall. ah like Pre-Nightfall and post-Troika, there's a lot of Batman stuff that I haven't read all of.
01:09:39
Speaker
This is from 1990. Yeah. ah Tim Drake was named after Tim Burton. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ah When he was introduced. But yeah, like, I've read this one. I mean, like, weirdly enough, for this being kind of the area that I don't know the most about, i i knew exactly what story it was.
01:09:58
Speaker
But then again, i guess I am me.
01:10:03
Speaker
But yeah, like this, you know. um Oh, it's a Christmas story, too. I didn't i didn't realize that. It's all happening during Christmas. Yeah. Yeah, it it ends with ah with Tim getting the modern Robin costume, which honestly, that's a pretty 90s suit, but it's also one of the best costume redesigns of all time.
01:10:22
Speaker
it's It's very interesting, because like the Norm Breyfogle art, it's not like it's not of its time, but it does look older than nineteen ninety It's interesting that you say that, because like i feel like Bray Fogle on Batman is like what 90s comics look like.
01:10:47
Speaker
It's what 90s Batman comics look like for a while. The covers do... The covers seem weirdly kind of Bronze Age-y. I mean, I think the interiors look kind of Bronze Age-y.
01:11:01
Speaker
But that's just what Batman comics look like at the time. But like... Todd McFarlane was drawing Spider-Man at this time, too. no Todd McFarlane, fresh off of drawing Batman, was drawing Spider-Man yeah at this time.
01:11:16
Speaker
ah No, like, I think... No, you say that, but that you didn't say that as a qualitative judgment on Bray Fogle's art. Oh, I don't think... No, it's not qualitative. It's just... It's interesting to see comics from certain time periods that, like...
01:11:36
Speaker
don't necessarily look like they're from those time periods. I think the art is very good. Yeah, no, I think Bray Fogle fucking owns in this comic. I don't know if he did the Robin costume redesign, but whoever did nailed it.
01:11:50
Speaker
I believe he did. I'm pretty sure he did. um But yeah, man, like...
01:12:03
Speaker
like It looks like a Robin costume... of mine It looks like a Robin costume and has just enough modern touches where it doesn't look goofy.
01:12:14
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that like that costume, I think, still works today. I agree. Yeah. That R is cool. That R is a cool R. That's a cool R. Yeah, man.
01:12:31
Speaker
But like the the black cape with the yellow interior part And, you know, giving him pants. Pants were important.
01:12:42
Speaker
Yeah. the The pants, I will go ahead and say, were quite important. Yeah.
01:12:51
Speaker
And he's right next to the Jason Todd Robin costume. Which was just Dick Grayson's Robin costume. Yes. So yeah, that was a costume that at the time had been around...
01:13:05
Speaker
For 50 years. Like, Batman's costume had changed more than Robin's had since 1940. Yes. sure. forha Which is, you know, kind of wild to think about, but very true.
01:13:18
Speaker
ah And yeah, like, it's ah it's a good suit, man. Yeah.
01:13:27
Speaker
Rank this story for me. Or help me rank this story. I like it. Like, I'm looking at these issues right now being like, damn, I should reread this. Like, damn, Tim Drake kind of like... Because look, we all know it.
01:13:42
Speaker
Tim Drake's the best Robin. He's the best Robin. that i That's not up for debate. I have a real affinity for Damien now, but Tim's matt pretty great.
01:13:56
Speaker
I don't mean this in anything but the best way.
01:14:01
Speaker
That doesn't surprise me.
01:14:08
Speaker
I'll take that. Yes, I'll take that. Does not surprise me that you, my dog, Matt Wilson, are like, I love this little shit. I do love that little shit. he's he's i love this little bastard who only likes his cat. ah little This little ill-mannered kid who...
01:14:37
Speaker
Does not care about keeping it nice.
01:14:42
Speaker
Yeah, I do like Damien a lot. Yeah. ah Damien's good. Damien's good. But like, Tim, the way Tim's characterized as, ah like, he didn't, you know, he's the Robin who wanted to be Robin. Yes. You know, he didn't want to be Batman.
01:15:04
Speaker
He wanted to be Robin. Yeah. And like he's he's the detective. He's the one who figures out who Batman and Robin are. He's Bruce's partner in a way that I don't think Dick is after a certain point, but like certainly a way that like Tim never really was or that ah Jason never really was like Dick only really gets interesting when he starts being nightling.
01:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, because Dick functions as, as I've, I've said roughly 1 million times, uh, Dick's the proof of concept. Dick shows us that Batman works.
01:15:39
Speaker
Uh, Because he's the one who, like, because he has Batman, doesn't grow up to be Batman. right He grows up and is nice.
01:15:52
Speaker
And everyone loves him. And he's the most popular guy in the world. And he everyone loves his ass and wants to fuck him. Despite being a vigilante who goes out and fights crime in a costume, Dick is well-adjusted.
01:16:06
Speaker
Yes. And I think that's like... like but
01:16:12
Speaker
Tim is right. it's like I don't know who he is the the mouthpiece of, but whoever is out there saying, like no, no, Batman needs to have a Robin.
01:16:26
Speaker
That's correct. like That is, in fact, true. And I feel like that's like such a cool idea for a character that That really comes through in this story. like i I think introducing a new Robin... Because keep in mind, Death in the Family is 88.
01:16:48
Speaker
like It's not that long. Two years later, yeah. Yeah, that that Tim shows up. And introducing the new Robin at this point... That's hard.
01:17:01
Speaker
That's hard like that is a that that is really... tim is tim is more This is sort of reductive. But they had a blueprint of what Tim should be, which was not Jason.
01:17:19
Speaker
Yeah. Not Jason. So he's a lot of the stuff that Jason is not. you know Smart, fun, enjoyable to read about. Exactly. Well, it's funny because like you know it's weird to look at ah Like the Mike W. Barr, Alan Davis, like detective stuff where he's writing Jason as though Jason is just Dick.
01:17:46
Speaker
ah And that I think, you know, works in that story, but feels so weird in retrospect because Jason turned out to be something so different.
01:18:01
Speaker
Right. oh Whereas Tim is just kind of like, yep, that's him from Jump Street. That's Tim Drake. You know, like, I think there was a kind of a – if Jason had been introduced 20 years earlier
01:18:22
Speaker
as the new Silver Age Robin, he would have just been Dick Grayson again. Yeah. Kind of.
01:18:33
Speaker
yeah But Dick stuck around. Which bronze age Bronze Age Jason kind of is. Right, yeah.
01:18:44
Speaker
But like, ah for reasons, I have been doing a lot of research about Hawkgirl and the comics history of Hawkgirl.
01:18:57
Speaker
And I knew a lot of it, but some of it I didn't know. And I didn't know A ton about the original like Silver Age versions of Hawkman and Hawkgirl.
01:19:06
Speaker
And they're just Golden Age Hawkman and Hawkgirl, just with a totally different origin. Yeah. Like, why?
01:19:19
Speaker
ah don't get it. Hawkman, why? Hawkman, why? The question that Matt Wilson dares to ask... ah jim You heard it here first, folks. Hawkman, why?
01:19:32
Speaker
ah Anyway, let's write let's rank this story, this Batman story. Or this sortsze grace or Tim Drake story. It's pretty good.
01:19:43
Speaker
I like it. yeah i think It's pretty good. I think it's real salt and stuff.
01:19:53
Speaker
What's the Neighborhood?
01:19:56
Speaker
I mean, like, again, I love Tim Drake. i like i'm a Give me a t-shirt. I'm a Tim Drake guy. God, don't tell DC Comics that. Because those shirts would sell. oh like I'm a Tim Drake guy. I'm a Dick Grayson guy. I'm a Stephanie Brown guy.
01:20:16
Speaker
i'm a Damian Wayne guy. I'm a Damian Wayne guy. Like, God. that's i just gave i just gave them free money We could make those t-shirts.
01:20:31
Speaker
We could make those t-shirts, and we could get sued. No, we're just going to put... we're We're not going to put them on it. We're just going put their name on it. I don't think... Matt, I think the names are copyrighted.
01:20:44
Speaker
i'm pretty sure I can't introduce a character in something named Dick Grayson. What if Dick Grayson was your birth name? That's true. Well, you know, has been 75 years since the introduction of Dick Grayson.
01:20:57
Speaker
so oh there is like i all of All of those characters are still under copyright, but like the original versions of like Batman and Superman and whoever, like those those copyright expiration dates are coming up sooner than you think. I've read i've looked at them up recently. Yeah,
01:21:25
Speaker
yeah it's sooner than you think. Oh yeah, I did, ah someone interviewed me about it, and I gave them my extremely grumpy answer about the the copyrights of of Superman, of Action Comics number one.
01:21:42
Speaker
hi Biscuit.
01:21:46
Speaker
but say Everybody say hi to Biscuit. Say hi Biscuit!
01:21:52
Speaker
it's It's seven minutes until she's supposed to have dinner. so but yeah like my My answer was, like look, everyone is going to have a pitch ah who call everyone's goingnna have a pitch for Superman as soon as that ah copyright runs out.
01:22:08
Speaker
None of them are going to be good. it's But it's only Action Comics Superman, right? Yeah, it's like you're not getting you're not getting Lois, you're not getting Jimmy, you're not getting Lex. Well, you will get Lois. Lois is an Action Comics number one.
01:22:21
Speaker
But you're not getting the Daily Planet, you're not getting Kryptonite. You're getting Daily Star, maybe. You're getting the Daily Star, but you're not, you know, you're getting Cal, letter L. That's what you're getting.
01:22:35
Speaker
Right. You're getting strictly that... version of Superman and nothing else. Yeah. Because, I mean, it's the it's the it's the Steamboat Willie situation.
01:22:48
Speaker
Where, like, Steamboat Willie and Mickey Mouse is in public domain, but no other version of what Mickey Mouse is. Yeah. Yeah. ah What were Robin? We were ranking this this Tim Drake story.
01:23:02
Speaker
Yeah, like Robin. Give me a number.
01:23:07
Speaker
yell at me, gosh! ah Let's see Number 450, we have New Superman Made in China. That's pretty good, but I don't think it's as good as this story.
01:23:17
Speaker
That is pretty good. But at number 449, we have Immortal Iron Fist number 7, The Pirate Queen of Ping Hai Bay. That is a pretty solid comic. yeah Okay, it's definitely not as good as Seeing Red, Cap 350. That comic whips ass.
01:23:32
Speaker
ah Let's put it at the new 450.
01:23:37
Speaker
Okay, the new number 450 is Batman numbers 455 through 457.
01:23:46
Speaker
Identity Crisis.
01:23:50
Speaker
So, Identity Crisis did land higher on the list. ah but Don't do this to me, Matt. It's just a different story with the same title.
01:24:03
Speaker
but that's That's one of those titles that I've talked about. like There are titles that need to be retired. The Road Home. Never call a story that.
01:24:16
Speaker
Tiger Tiger. Never call a fucking story that.
01:24:21
Speaker
I mean, you better have a great fucking idea. Yeah. If you're going to try it. yeah if if Yeah. If you're going to try and ah call your story the same thing they call that episode of Batman the Animated Series where Catwoman becomes a furry.
01:24:34
Speaker
Woo! Good luck, buddy. And also an issue of Watchmen and also... so a poem of some note. Of some note, yeah. Do you need a feed your dog break?
01:24:48
Speaker
ah I don't. She might. i think we yeah I think we can... I think Raw can roll on. Alright. Folks, You may hear ah us take a pause in the next few minutes, and it may be a feeding the dog break.
01:25:02
Speaker
ah But and for now, we will progress onward with the second story on Lou's list. Robin, Volume 1. Tim's first series. He fights Kingsnake in Paris while training.
01:25:16
Speaker
I don't think I've ever actually read that whole thing.
01:25:21
Speaker
Interesting.
01:25:24
Speaker
I mean, like, I'm like familiar with it, but don't think I've read the whole thing. The one that I remember...
01:25:36
Speaker
Let's see, there was Robin 2, which was a Joker thing.
01:25:42
Speaker
Wasn't there a book that was called Robin 3? There was a book called Robin 3. Because there's three minis before the ongoing, I believe. Yes, yes, there was Robin 3, Cry of the Huntress.
01:25:52
Speaker
That's the one I remember reading. that's a that's a ch That's a Chuck joint. Of course it is.
01:26:00
Speaker
The first Robin miniseries is from 1991. Oh, it had Brian Boland art. Damn. Yeah, it didn't have Brian Boland art. have Brian Boland covers.
01:26:13
Speaker
Oh, covers. um Inside was by Tom Lyle. um This was also a Chuck Dixon joint. Yeah, that's that's the Chuck that we're not happy is doing well.
01:26:27
Speaker
ah I must have read this. But I also do not remember one thing about it at all. Yeah, I would say i i don't I do not have the necessary recall of it that I would need. Wow, were we going to do Comics Catch-Up on Robin 1991?
01:26:50
Speaker
I mean, shit, maybe. Five-issue miniseries? i think we should I think maybe we should. i think maybe we should. sounds it Sounds like it might be pretty fucking good.
01:27:02
Speaker
I mean, it might not be good. Because, again, I think we both read it and ah do not remember it at all. It ah certainly might not be pretty good at all.
01:27:16
Speaker
But that could be Comics Catch-Up for July, potentially.
Stephanie Brown as Spoiler
01:27:20
Speaker
yeah um okay Finally on Lou's list is Detective Comics numbers 647 to 649.
01:27:28
Speaker
Stephanie Brown appears as the spoiler to stop her dad. ah that's That stuff's pretty good, actually. like
01:27:40
Speaker
ah the
01:27:44
Speaker
The fact that there hadn't been that many Like, there there was Dwella Dent, I guess, but there really hadn't been that many stories about, like, super villain's daughter becomes a superhero.
01:28:00
Speaker
Yeah. And that's, like, such a fucking slam dunk of an idea. Like, that's so it's it's so easy. Damn, that is also Chuck Dixon and Tom Lyle.
01:28:10
Speaker
Yeah, man, if it's a if it's a Robin comic from the ninety s there's pretty chance it's Chuck yeah yeah he he he did all that shit like that's that's the thing is for a long time Chuck was kind of unavoidable if you enjoyed the Batman family and honestly not bad like like at least on a technical level like perfectly C plus comics
01:28:45
Speaker
Good hand. Yeah. I mean, I'm looking through these issues now, and I remember them. They are absolutely C-plus comics from the early 90s. Yeah. do you Do you want some shorthand about a mom being on drugs?
01:29:01
Speaker
Have I got the book for you, man? Yeah. The weird thing is, I think you can read those comics. Like, comics about Stephanie Brown being pregnant and opting to not get an abortion.
01:29:17
Speaker
And it doesn't it doesn't feel like
01:29:22
Speaker
it doesn't feel like a dude's... It's obviously a political statement, but it doesn't feel like an overwhelming one in the way that he would eventually get. It's hard to phrase it properly.
01:29:38
Speaker
yeah um By the way, if if listeners, because we haven't actually stated it, don't know who Stephanie's brown dad is... Her dad is a clue master.
01:29:48
Speaker
Yes. Man, these issues have Matt Wagner covers that are stunning.
01:29:58
Speaker
Yeah. Holy moly, those look good. Yeah, man. Fuck.
01:30:08
Speaker
but The interior art is a C+. plus
01:30:14
Speaker
You know it. I do not want to shade Tom Lyle, but I am shading Tom Lyle right now. Yeah, you kind of are. You're kind of going in on him a little bit. That's not me, Tom.
01:30:26
Speaker
That's Matt.
01:30:29
Speaker
It is perfectly fine comic book art. The covers are...
01:30:38
Speaker
Things of Beauty. Tom Lyle, I don't know why Matt's being and so mean to you.
01:30:47
Speaker
I think Tom Lyle's great.
01:30:51
Speaker
Stephanie Brown becomes spoiler. Yeah. Stephanie Brown becomes spoiler. Which is good. Spoiler's good character. It's not nearly as good as the the the issue issues where Tim officially becomes Robin, though.
01:31:07
Speaker
Damn, why are you coming to Tom Lyle so hard? It's not just Tom Lyle, it's also Chuck Dixon. Oof. Going in.
01:31:18
Speaker
That's what this show's about. Matt, you're over here like, Tom Lyle can take a new Jack swing. That's what Matt's saying.
01:31:29
Speaker
I would never. Sorry, Tom Lyle. i I respect your work.
01:31:38
Speaker
it's perfect it's It's perfectly good. It's perfectly good. oh Paint praise.
01:31:48
Speaker
So mean. Anyway, it is cool at the end of the story. It's cool at the end of the story where Stephanie like is the one responsible for apprehending her dad. Yes.
01:31:59
Speaker
No, it's very good. Yeah. ah and And Batman has to talk her down from killing him? Yeah, because he fucking sucks. Yeah, he I mean, he does, yeah.
01:32:12
Speaker
She's like, yeah, oh this is my dad. He fucking sucks, dude. And then Batman's like, Hey, if you kill your dad, ain't going to be good. Hey, man, don't kill your dad.
01:32:24
Speaker
Yeah. Hey, my name's Batman. We've had a lot of fun today, but there's nothing Batman about killing your dad. Killing your dad. What's Batman is watching your dad die.
01:32:36
Speaker
Yeah, now that, Batman can get behind. Yeah, that's Batman. that That's Batman all day long.
01:32:50
Speaker
It's fun to have fun. It is fun to have fun. Number 600 is Red She-Hulk by Jeff Parker and Carlos Pagoulian. That's pretty good comic. 650 is the kid who collected Spider-Man.
01:33:08
Speaker
We're going to keep going down. Batman Year 100 is 700. Boy, Matt, you hate that little kid almost as much as you hate Tom Lyle. don't hate that little kid. you're like You're like, man, I'm glad that kid died.
01:33:22
Speaker
ah but Too far. Too far. i would never I would never say any such thing. 750 is Hellboy in Mexico. That's better than this as well. 800 is Wednesday Comics Supergirl.
01:33:40
Speaker
Stop me when I'm in the neighborhood. i think, i mean i i think ah like I said, I don't recall this comic as well as I probably should.
01:33:51
Speaker
um So do you think it's like it could go around 800?
01:33:58
Speaker
I don't see why not. Okay.
01:34:05
Speaker
Is it 809 is Spider Island? Is this better than Spider Island?
01:34:13
Speaker
Here's thing about Spider Island, Matt. um Everybody got turned into spiders. Everybody got turned into spider people, and then everybody got turned into spiders, and that shit's pretty funny. It's pretty good, honestly. i like the escalation a lot.
01:34:28
Speaker
Imagine imagine the the pitching of that story. Just being like, yeah, man, everybody's going to turn into Spider-Mans. Okay.
01:34:40
Speaker
Yeah, and then and then it's like, okay, but what if they then became spiders?
01:34:45
Speaker
it What you do is you write you're right Spider-Man on the on the ah the whiteboard, right? Then you wrote you add an S. So it says Spider-Man's.
01:35:00
Speaker
Then you change that S into a dollar sign. Then you erase the part that says Man's. And write another S on spiders. And then make that a new dollar sign. dollar sign. And then you make the first S a dollar sign.
01:35:18
Speaker
So that's better. Spider Island better. yeah Yeah. Is, I think, what we've decided. Yeah. Okay.
01:35:27
Speaker
ah Well, you can tell when we ah record these all at once and we get a little weird. Get a little silly.
01:35:40
Speaker
Ultimate Spider-Man Venom is at 8.17. This is maybe as good as that.
01:35:48
Speaker
Astro City Tarnished Angel at 8.18. That's pretty good.
01:35:53
Speaker
Autobiography of Matt Murdock at 8.19. 1010 The Blue Lotus 8.22. It's got a couple problems, but it's pretty good.
01:36:04
Speaker
it's it's got a couple problems it's pretty good
01:36:10
Speaker
Nightfall is at 831. This is not as good as Nightfall. yeah This is not as good as Nightfall. Yeah, man. Nightfall, I regret to inform you, is good, actually.
01:36:25
Speaker
Spider-Verse is at 845.
01:36:30
Speaker
War of Jokes and Riddles is at 850, and we don't know if that's good or not. It's not. We've come down pretty hard on it. It's not. Is this better than Doc Ock's Cocaine Rocket, which is at $8.55?
01:36:46
Speaker
Absolutely not. Matt, that's the way got a Cocaine Rocket in it. You're right. You're right. Okay.
01:36:57
Speaker
Is it better than JSA 1-4, which is $8.71?
01:37:05
Speaker
Yes. Better than that? I think it's better than that. Well, I don't think it's better than Hellblazer Hard Time. So this is the new number 871. If you ever take a trip down to Cobb County, Georgia.
01:37:22
Speaker
that Big Boss Man? Yeah. let's be goodney Doing hard time.
01:37:31
Speaker
ah All right. Detective Comics 647 to 649 is that story Wait, where are we putting it? I'm sorry, i completely was lost in trying to remember the lyrics of Big Boss Man's theme.
01:37:45
Speaker
ah It is at the new number 871.
01:37:50
Speaker
Okay.
01:37:53
Speaker
Is there a title of this story?
01:37:57
Speaker
Or am I just going to put first spoiler? First spoiler? First and O, I guess. Yeah, I guess so. What was the first issue called?
01:38:10
Speaker
Inquiring Minds. That's a bad title.
01:38:15
Speaker
Second issue was called Let the Puzzlement Fit the Crime. Chuck, come on.
01:38:26
Speaker
And then the third one is called Mauled. Spelled like a maul. Chuck, those are bad story titles.
01:38:37
Speaker
Okay. Man, coming pretty hard at Chuck Dixon and Tom Lyle. I don't know if we have time to finish a whole other list, but we'll see.
Batman Storylines and Costumes
01:38:51
Speaker
Oh, wait. Lou had a backup, and we couldn't do Robin Volume 1. Lou's backup is Troika, the Bat Family crossover, where Soviet loyalists have planted a bomb in Gotham and Robin fight Solo against KG Beast.
01:39:07
Speaker
ah um Okay, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Now, Troika? I've read Troika. Uh-huh. Boy, I've read Troika.
01:39:21
Speaker
And I can tell you. i can tell you a little some about Troika. Let's hear it. ah It's okay. the like The weird thing about Troika is that what's
01:39:39
Speaker
important about Troika isn't anything about Troika. What's important about Troika is that Batman gets a new costume.
01:39:53
Speaker
Right. ah He gets his post- ah posts nightfall costume, which is basically the 89 movie costume.
01:40:05
Speaker
ah He gets like...
01:40:10
Speaker
Like, the the black, all-black everything. Which he's gonna have until 2000. two thousand And that is kind of... I mean, that's kind of it, right? Like, if if that's the most important thing about a story, is that Batman gets basically the costume he's gonna wear in Morrison JLA and kind of nothing else.
01:40:36
Speaker
and No Man's Land, I guess? Like...
01:40:42
Speaker
Then what does what does that tell you about the rest of that story? Like, boy, we are gearing up for some Doug Monch Kelly Jones comics. Yeah, the first issue of this is a Doug Monch Kelly Jones joint.
01:40:56
Speaker
Yeah. Which, like, talk about different looking art. Talk about what I think of 90s looking art being. Yeah. It's that Kelly Jones shit.
01:41:07
Speaker
ah But, yeah, it it ran through four issues. Batman 515, Batman Shadow of the Bat number 35, Detective Comics number 682, and Robin number 14.
01:41:22
Speaker
There's a panel in Batman 515 where this is the most Kelly Jones shit of all time. ah Brackets, derogatory.
01:41:36
Speaker
ah Tim and Dick are in the Batcave. like, standing, like human beings. And Batman is squatting, like, crouching on, like, a little flat-topped, one-foot-tall, like, one-half-foot-tall stalagmite.
01:42:02
Speaker
Like, squatting on it like a gargoyle, but you can clearly see where it's touching the ground, and it's, like, 18 inches high.
01:42:12
Speaker
And ah Tim's like, Bruce, you, you're back, but your costume. And Batman says, I've decided it's time for something new.
01:42:24
Speaker
And like, hey, Tim, I realize this is kind of a big deal for ah the readers of Wizard Magazine and all that, but like, yeah are you that surprised that Batman's like wearing black?
01:42:39
Speaker
Like, it ain't that different. It's not that different, and it's not really all black. It's, like, darker. Well, it's it's meant to be black, but black still didn't print very well.
01:42:53
Speaker
so So it looks kind of gray. And ah cape and cowl are still a dark blue. Yeah. And the interior of the cape is a a slightly lighter blue, so that he can still pop against the cape when he's in motion.
01:43:07
Speaker
Yeah. oh But, like...
01:43:13
Speaker
Oof. some of this Kelly Jones art is hard. It's challenging. I'm not a Kelly Jones guy. And you you got so mad at me for going hard at Chuck.
01:43:28
Speaker
I mean, I wasn't mad at you about going hard Chuck. I was mad you about going hard at Tom Lyle. Yeah, Tom Lyle. What did Tom Lyle do to deserve that, Matt? I don't know. eat What did Tom Wilde do to deserve your scorn and hatred?
01:43:40
Speaker
I didn't say any of his art was bad.
01:43:45
Speaker
I never said any of it was bad. Yeah. Okay. He said it was solid. Right. This costume, I don't think, this costume had no trunks.
01:43:59
Speaker
Yeah, no, this is this is this is kind of the start of DC Comics being like, let's ditch the trunks. I don't feel like that lasted very long. Well, they would they couldn't figure out how to make it happen with Superman for a really long time.
01:44:14
Speaker
Yeah. No, I mean, i mean i i feel like Batman's trunkless costume. Oh, yeah. This is 94, 95? He's got trunks back in 2000.
01:44:25
Speaker
He's got trunks back, I think, before that. no Well, Matt, why why would you contradict me on that? He gets his trunks back in January of 2000, when ah Dave Johnson does the redesigned Batman costume.
01:44:41
Speaker
He loses the oval. He gets the trunks back. The trunks last until 2011, with the new 52. And then Batman doesn't have trunks for a while. Then he gets trunks back again. Wow, he really was he really trunkless for that long?
01:44:56
Speaker
Yeah, man. It's just that ah there were a lot of... like A lot of bad comics that we didn't read a lot of. I feel like I've read some Batman comics in like 1998 that where he wore trunks, but.
01:45:11
Speaker
Nice. He's trunkless throughout the Morrison JLA and he's trunkless in no man's land. I guess I just never noticed. Yeah. Well, it's like, he's also frequently drawn in this era with the, the Cape forming like, like a cloak.
01:45:27
Speaker
which i Which is a look that I like. But, I mean, you know, Howard Porter frequently draws him like that. ah So there's a lot of shadow and a lot of of covering. lot of coverage for Batman.
01:45:39
Speaker
oh tom ah Not Tom Pyre. Howard Porter also gives him those demon shoulders that he has for a little bit. Oh, yeah. the he He had the demon shoulders in, like...
01:45:51
Speaker
The Shadow of the Bat issue of this story. Yeah. Of Troika. Yeah. Yeah, they they they can never really decide if they want Batman to have like those those coat rack shoulders they want to give him.
01:46:05
Speaker
Wow. i could I just totally didn't even realize that Batman had no trunks for like six years in the mid to late 90s.
01:46:16
Speaker
Yeah. You know why you didn't realize it, Matt?
01:46:21
Speaker
Why? Because it's not his real clothes. It's not his real clothes. and It's true that I wasn't reading all of those comics. I came back in 2000.
01:46:32
Speaker
It's not his real clothes. And we will not rest until Batman has his real clothes back. This our promise to you. This is our promise to you, the listener.
01:46:51
Speaker
Give his real close back. Alright, we gotta rank this KGB story. I mean, well, Troika's not just a KGB story, Matt.
01:47:02
Speaker
Okay. Don't be dismissive of Troika. Okay, hey sorry. No, Troika is fine. It is a perfectly fine comic.
01:47:13
Speaker
I feel like the perfectly fine part of the list is in the 1100s, probably. ah You are probably right. At number 1100, we have Fantastic Four number two, the first appearance of the Skrulls.
01:47:29
Speaker
Yeah. ah Troika is certainly more readable than the case of the Chemical Syndicate, but definitely not as important. yeah
01:47:43
Speaker
I don't think it's as good as the Alan Grant, John Wagner, Norm Brayfogle, Scarecrow story. That we have at 1114. Let's see. 1200 is Hark of a ah Vagrant, the Velocopedestrian. It's pretty good one.
01:48:02
Speaker
How did that get so low? um don't know, man. I don't know. huh i mean, there's a lot of stuff. Like, Night Business is on here at 1202. I know how that one got so low.
01:48:20
Speaker
Uh, I mean, I don't... I mean, 1207, we have The Kingdom, which is, like, pretty much exactly as good as this. don't know, maybe a little bit better. At 1216, we have The Max, which this is trying to look like.
01:48:35
Speaker
So it cannot be as good. Oof, man. Now you're... I can't believe you said that about Kelly Jones. That's so mean. Max had them big ol' feet.
01:48:47
Speaker
Max does have them big ol' feet, um... miss when superheroes and like comic characters have big old feet impulse used to have big fucking feet and that should come back
01:49:01
Speaker
uh it's not as good as that detective comics annual by chuck dixon of or batman's pirate either unfortunately ah
01:49:11
Speaker
But I do think it's better than 1219, which is Kryptonite Nevermore, which is another, like, I wanted to make some changes type story. yeah Okay, then let's put it just above that, under the Garth Ennis Unknown Soldier series.
01:49:35
Speaker
1219. 1219. Batman Troika, which ran through four different books.
01:49:42
Speaker
Or i'll put I'll say Batman Robin Troika, because it was in one issue of Robin.
01:49:49
Speaker
Two of those four issues were written by Chuck Dixon. Yeah, man. He's all over them books. Okay, we don't have time to do an entire other list.
01:50:02
Speaker
So we're going to start this one from Jeff Wickstrom. Okay.
Fantastic Four and Adam Warlock
01:50:09
Speaker
First is Fantastic Four, number 66 and 67.
01:50:15
Speaker
ah that the the That's not Coming of Galactus. No, that's 50, right? Yeah. Is that Black Panther? Do we not have that on the list?
01:50:27
Speaker
Let's see. i i i will have to look and verify what is in those issues. 66 67. 66 is...
01:50:35
Speaker
sixty six is
01:50:41
Speaker
The mystery of the year. What lurks behind the beehive? Okay, so nothing that we were thinking of. Yeah. ah I mean, Matt, look at the cover of number 67 and you'll know what it is.
01:51:00
Speaker
Is it him? It's him. but coming of him? It's him. One of my one of my favorite jokes. Is to ah the the two Arrested Development every time anyone brings up Adam Warlock.
01:51:17
Speaker
Him? Yeah. Boy. Talk about a character that I've got nothing for. I know Biscuit.
01:51:30
Speaker
Adam Warlock. He's a lot. This story is fine. That's charitable of you. It's...
01:51:42
Speaker
It's one of the lower points of ah Lee Kirby. Fantastic Four, I think. My favorite thing about it is that you can very clearly see how...
01:51:57
Speaker
lo Like, how fucking loosey-goosey comics creation is. Even for this book, even at this point in time. Because...
01:52:10
Speaker
just like Stan thought that was a beehive.
01:52:16
Speaker
It's a cocoon on the cover of number 67. number Stan got these pages and like, i don't know what the fuck that is. Well, because nobody was talking to each other either.
01:52:28
Speaker
rebeling Right, like, yeah, yeah. In 66, it's a beehive, and then On 67, Jack put like a note on his art.
01:52:39
Speaker
It's not a beehive. It's a beehive. It's like's not a beehive. It's a cocoon. Yeah. I guess the beehive isn't the cocoon. The beehive is a thing that doesn't look like a beehive.
01:52:51
Speaker
It's the laboratory where they build Adam Warlock. But still, man, like, beehives, cocoons, whatever.
01:53:02
Speaker
I don't know. i like I like a lot of stuff around this issue, but I haven't read this one. Oh, I've read these. it's It's among my least favorite Lee Kirby FF, which means it's still like fine. Yeah, still probably in the top 10% of all comics ever made.
01:53:23
Speaker
But it's like, you know, i would put it below any other Lee Kirby FF we have. Oh, okay. Let's see.
01:53:33
Speaker
ah Let's see. if I mean, it's ah it's it's maybe equally as entertaining as the first issue with the Skrulls, which we just mentioned. Well, we have numbers 196 to 200 at 1272. That's well after the Lee Kirby run, though.
01:53:52
Speaker
Yeah. i think Is that Roy? think that might be Roy. Coming full circle on Roy. Yeah. Yeah. ah Fantastic Four number two Skrulls is at 1100. That's a Marv Wolfman, Keith Pollard, Joe Sinnott joint.
01:54:08
Speaker
Oh boy. Oh boy.
01:54:12
Speaker
Not somebody we're mean to is Marv Wolfman. But you know what? He's doing fine. He's doing fine. people People will defend the heck out of Marv Wolfman.
01:54:23
Speaker
Let me tell you. Yeah, man. like good the Great. You know what? I'll say this for Marv Wolfman. He definitely shaped a lot of DC Comics. And DC Comics, as we know it, would not be the way it is without him.
01:54:39
Speaker
And he did that through a lot of comics that I do personally find unreadable. I like that you phrased that as, be the way it is. Yeah. I mean, it's true. Even without Crisis, Teen Titans...
01:54:54
Speaker
like even without even without crisis ah like teen titans really Really sets the tone for what DC Comics wanted to be for a really long time.
01:55:06
Speaker
ah Which I guess means you really have to credit Chris Claremont and John Byrne with reinventing DC Comics. Now who's being mean? Me. Yeah. I'm being mean.
01:55:20
Speaker
I think this story is equally as good as the story that introduces the Skrulls. or Or in that neighborhood. Okay. Like, it might not be as fun to read as The Second Richest Duck, which is right below that. Uh-huh. And we might not have as much fun talking about it as the Legends of the Dark Knight story with that nasty freak, Hugo Strange. He's a real nasty guy.
01:55:49
Speaker
Like, a okay, I'm going to tell you a funny story. and Okay. And I don't mean this in a mean way, but like the other day after we played D&D, our good friend Ben Gully, uh, asked me, like, hey, who's the second biggest freako pervert in comics? And I said, Claremont, immediately.
01:56:06
Speaker
No thinking, no hesitation.
01:56:10
Speaker
And he was like, I did mean characters.
01:56:18
Speaker
And again, with Claremont, it's freako pervert brackets affectionate.
01:56:24
Speaker
I don't think he's number two. I don't think he's number two either. I think he's i think he's the most influential. Definitely the most influential, but like there are so many bigger nasty Frico perverts who are openly nasty Frico perverts in comics.
01:56:38
Speaker
Yeah, like like the the ones that are fun to talk about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. like I mean, Crumb is definitely above, but like also I don't want to talk about him. Yeah. oh Yeah.
01:56:52
Speaker
Anyway, the the answer, of course, is Miles Warren the Jackal. him and all Him and and Hugo Strange are really like tied for type first place. Two absolute freaks who need to calm down.
01:57:05
Speaker
Brackets derogatory. Calm down. Two straight-up nasty boys. ah Anyway, I think this is the new number 1103.
01:57:18
Speaker
That feels like such an arbitrary number to have picked, but you know what? Sure. ah Fantastic Four, number 66 to 67.
01:57:29
Speaker
Him.
01:57:35
Speaker
Him. Him. Oh, him? Him. Yeah.
01:57:44
Speaker
All right, let's... Let's try to get the and the next one. Marvel Premiere numbers one and two. Warlock numbers one through four. ah Buddy, why are you asking me about these? i haven't read these. They have Adam Warlock on the cover.
01:58:04
Speaker
This is Roy Thomas. Roy Thomas will write that shit out of some ah some Marvel Premiere, let me tell you.
01:58:15
Speaker
Yeah, okay, so that was like the 1982 Warlock miniseries? Right? no is this No, this is earlier. This is 71. Okay, the power of Warlock was in 72. This was the Jim Starlin Warlock?
01:58:36
Speaker
No, this is the Roy Thomas. This is Marvel premiere number one and two. Which I guess leads into something else, because Marvel Premiere 3 is about Doctor Strange.
01:58:49
Speaker
Right, there was a there was a Warlock Mini. Yeah, so the 72 one continues the story of Marvel Premiere, so it which is Roy Thomas again.
01:59:04
Speaker
The Power of Warlock. Yeah, the Power of Warlock. Okay, i I have not read any of these. Yeah, no. Me either. And I shan't.
01:59:16
Speaker
I don't intend to.
01:59:20
Speaker
Who did the art on these? Gil Kane. it it It looks pretty good. It looks good. Gil Kane should have been drawing something else. Yeah, Gil Kane absolutely should have drawing something else, man.
01:59:38
Speaker
Ugh. Yeah, sorry Jeff. we We got nothing on those. Yeah man, you know I don't like that guy. You changed that L to an R. I love that guy.
01:59:54
Speaker
Oh yeah, Adam Warrock. Love that guy. Love that guy.
02:00:00
Speaker
The power of Warlock.
02:00:05
Speaker
Man, why'd you say that's so sexy? ha ha. There's one last story on Jeff's list. It's Incredible Hulk number 176 to 178. I bet Adam Warlock's in it.
02:00:17
Speaker
And I bet I haven't read it. This doesn't fit. that that Jeff said that one doesn't fit in the theme of the list. Okay.
02:00:27
Speaker
Let's see. What's... Okay. but we're Where are we at here? This is... Crisis on Counter-Earth. That's funny.
02:00:40
Speaker
you You fucking liar. That's got Adam Warlock in it. Does it? Okay. Wait, what number is it? It is number 176 to 178. Yeah, man, that's where Adam Warlock lives, right? He lives on Counter-Earth.
02:00:57
Speaker
Does this have Adam Warlock in it? I don't know. I might be wrong.
02:01:04
Speaker
Counter-Earth, that's where Spider-Man went after the Spider-Man animated series ended. He went to go work for it Counter-Earth J. Jones and Counter-Earth Italy Bugle.
02:01:16
Speaker
This is the most DC Comics Marvel story I've ever seen. Boy, look at the cover to 177.
02:01:24
Speaker
This is about a different Earth where a a monster man is the president. Man-Beast is the president.
02:01:37
Speaker
177 is the one i'm looking at. Is Adam Warlock on it? Oh yeah. Oh boy. There he is, buddy. There he is. It's funny that this is called Crisis on Counter-Earth.
02:01:50
Speaker
I know DC had been using the word crisis before. but oh yeah? um and marvel was like Jerry Conway jerry conmway knew he was having a little fun. Yeah.
02:02:03
Speaker
I don't know. i I've never read these. Jerry Conway's out here like, They love to have fun, King. ah this ah This is a high evolutionary story. High evolutionary is from Counter-Earth, right?
02:02:17
Speaker
Yes. Well, I don't think he's from Counter-Earth. Counter-Earth is confusing to me, and it's one of those things from... like There's precious little in all of Marvel comics that I just don't fuck with.
02:02:31
Speaker
And one of them, Counter-Earth. Mount Wondagore. Like, any of that shit, your guess is as good as mine. He created Counter-Earth.
02:02:44
Speaker
He created Okay. That seems like... If you can create an Earth, then why why are you fucking around with Quicksilver? there's There's a... That is shockingly a big part of the plot of the third Guardians of the Galaxy movie. There's a Counter-Earth in that movie.
02:03:02
Speaker
Well, they're he's in that too, right? High Evolutionary is, yeah. No, him. Oh, him is him is in it, yeah. Him's in it, yeah. Him is in that movie, yes.
02:03:13
Speaker
I'll tell you what, Adam adam Warlock was ahead of the curve on letting people know his pronouns. You know what? That's right. it said the cocoon, he, him. we him The coming of Ha ha! ha! ha ha! Ha ha! Ha ha! ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha! Ha ha! Ha ha! ha ha ha!
02:03:28
Speaker
ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha! Ha Ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha I don't care. i don't care about this at all. I've never read it. I'm not going to. I'm not out here trying to fuck with Counter-Earth.
02:03:46
Speaker
There are some high evolutionary stories that are like fine and good. Oh, are there? I don't know. Maybe there are. Yeah, please name one, Matt.
02:03:57
Speaker
But I'm absolutely not reading or breaking this. Sorry. Sorry, Jeff. That does seem appropriate.
Listener Engagement and Support
02:04:05
Speaker
yeah Alright, that's the end of this special then.
02:04:12
Speaker
ah We talked about some fun stuff. We talked about some stuff we didn't know anything about. ah That's how it goes sometimes. That is exactly how it goes sometimes.
02:04:24
Speaker
We'll be back in June, wink wink, with another special. And we hope you come back and listen and have fun with us. um If you would like to submit a Every Story Ever list to us, you can do it at our email address, which is warrocketpodcast.gmail.com.
02:04:41
Speaker
Just to let you know, the line steppers on our Patreon are the ones who get first dibs on lists.
02:04:53
Speaker
And in fact, they're pretty much the ones who are the only ones who get their lists read on the show. Because... We are currently on lists from August of 2023 for line steppers.
02:05:11
Speaker
So if you want to get your list read almost two years from when you send it, you have to be a line stepper on our Patreon. Patreon.com slash WarRocketAjax.
02:05:23
Speaker
That might be why people get mad when I when i just start talking about other shit. probably it. That's probably why people get so mad.
02:05:36
Speaker
ah Please go to patreon.com slash warrocketajax and help us out there if you can. And you can become a line stepper and eventually have your list read out on the show.
02:05:48
Speaker
And hopefully ranked, unless we haven't read the books. And we might say we'll never read those books. But you'll have to submit it to find out. Uh, You can also follow us on Blue Sky. We're there at warrocketajax.com.
02:06:04
Speaker
That is our Blue Sky handle. We're on Tumblr, warrocketpodcast.tumblr.com. You can join our Discord, which is a very cool place where our fans gather to talk about various things and have a good time.
02:06:19
Speaker
um You have to be invited to be a member of our Discord, but if you ask us for an invitation, we will get you one. Warrocketajax.com is our website with all our episodes on it. WarrocketWiki.com is the fan-run information hub about this very show, Warrocket Ajax. You can go check out everything that is there, including the constantly updated Every Story Ever list.
02:06:43
Speaker
If you want to find me and my stuff, go to mattdwilson.net. That's where you can find links to my comics, my books, my other podcasts, and my social medias. Chris, where can people find you? Everybody can find me by going to the-isb.com. That is my website. It's got links to all the stuff that I do.
02:06:59
Speaker
Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. thanks for ah Thanks for joining us for another episode. And until next time, keep on reading those comics and hoping that we have also read them. Forever, forever, forever, ever, ever, ever.
02:07:13
Speaker
Yes! From this day on, let every breed among them live