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52. We Are Stronger Than We Think We Are- With Farin Schlussel
68 Plays4 years ago
Farin Schlussel is the Assistant Director of Marketing for Avery Books and TarcherPerigee, two nonfiction publishing imprints at Penguin Publishing Group (a division of Penguin Random House, LLC). She loves helping readers find the new book that will change their lives and help them think differently.
She shares her grief journey after her father, who she had not spoken to in over 10 years, passed away unexpectedly from a heart attack in 2016. We talk about how she felt this loss acutely even though she hadn’t spoken to him in along time, but also worried about how others were going to view her and judge her grief. Her Jewish traditions she observed for 11 months, was one of the most powerful tools in her grief journey.
Her dog Hershey was also a huge part of her support in her grief journey, he was her companion for 12 years and passed away in 2019. We talk about her grief process after he passed as well as when she found her new dog Penny, who came to her life and helped heal heart. Penny was part of this interview too, as she sat on Farin’s lap throughout our conversation to comfort her.
Farin also shares about her friends who were so understanding and supportive during her mourning period. They stepped up, and curved their lives to help her not be a alone during the 11 months while she was mourning and following the Jewish tradition of aveilut. She does not know what she would have done without them there. Her younger sister, who also lived nearby, was also a big part of her support system because they had a mostly shared experience.
Those 11 months of aveilut helped her come to terms that she did not regret not having a relationship with her father and also that she had a right to grieve as well, because she had a loss, and she could grieve that loss no matter what people thought about her.
Contact Farin Schlussel: http://www.instagram.com/missfarin
Contact Kendra to be a guest or for a coaching session: http://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
Logo: https://www.pamelawinningham.com
Music: http://www.rinaldisound.com
Production: Carlos Andres Londono
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Transcript
A Difficult Farewell: Estrangement and Judgment
00:00:01
Speaker
When my dad passed away, it was kind of hard for me because, you know, when he passed, we hadn't spoken in over 10 years. And, you know, even at that point, like I wasn't ready to let him back into my life. And, you know, I spent the day before the funeral just like I couldn't eat because I was so scared.
00:00:27
Speaker
that people were gonna get on me, you know, because I hadn't spoken to him in 10 years and now I'm at his funeral and, you know, like, you know, how dare.
Introduction to 'Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between'
00:00:42
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:50
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:06
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now let's dive right in to today's episode.
Meet Farron: A Journey from Theater to Publishing
00:01:29
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to today's episode today. I've already kind of started the little conversation here with Farron. Hi. Farron. Tell me again because I'll schlazzle. Am I saying it right this time? Yes, you got it right. Well done. So we were already talking and I'm like, no, no, hold on. Hold on. Let me just do the formal introduction and let's start recording. That way I get to know you as you're recording. So Farron and I have never met. We've only chatted through email.
00:01:57
Speaker
And she is the assistant director of marketing for Avery Books and Tarture Paragie, which I knew, did I pronounce that one right? You did. Yay. So she and I have been in communications just because she had asked me regarding a book that we were promoting for one of the
00:02:17
Speaker
people in one of the books you released. So that's how our conversation started and she happens to have a grief journey story as well. So that's what we will be talking about. But first, we're going to get to know each other as you guys will get to know her too. So welcome again, Farron. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This is actually my first podcast ever.
00:02:38
Speaker
I'm kind of excited, kind of nervous. But I trust you. Oh, yeah. Well, it's a good one to be in because honestly, I'm so laid back, so it does it. It's like there's no wrong or right in this podcast. So we just chat. So people are just eavesdropping in our conversation. That's the reality here. So tell us again, then where do you live right now?
00:03:01
Speaker
Um, so I live on Long Island in the suburbs of New York. Um, and I've lived here, I mean, not in my current place, but on Long Island my entire life. Um, and my parents met in Brooklyn and oh no, my dog is asking to go.
Family Dynamics and Loss: The Eldest Sister's Story
00:03:21
Speaker
Oh, it's okay. It's okay. Go. No problem. All right.
00:03:27
Speaker
So I was just telling Farron, my dog is also in the room here. And so we were both like, oh, we're going to end up having to have, you know, like if our dogs need to get out or things like that. So it's life. We're just kind of. She's totally going to ask me to come back in. I lose my door ajar in case, although today it kind of seems a little close, in case she asked me to walk out. So no problem. Just so you know, the mic again is rattling a little bit. OK, I'll hold it. OK.
00:03:55
Speaker
So then, so your parents met in Brooklyn? Yes. My mother was born and raised there and my father, who my grief story is about, emigrated from Israel when he was 10. My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. They moved there after the war and then they moved here and landed in Brooklyn.
00:04:15
Speaker
Oh, wow. So that is the journey. Now, are you the only child? No, I have two sisters, so we're three girls. Three girls, okay. And I'm the oldest siblings. And you what? You're the eldest? Yeah. Oh, okay. Me too. I'm the eldest. I'm the oldest of three sisters and one brother, so I'm the oldest of four.
00:04:36
Speaker
I'm the eldest of four, but yeah, we were three sisters. Yeah. And I say we're because one of my sisters passed away. So tell me, then we were just starting to talk about what you studied, but so now you are what you do now. So it's curious. Let's take that journey. So you studied- Oh, she's back. Hang on the door might slam.
00:04:58
Speaker
There we go. So I went to college for theater and for history. I double majored at Queens College. And I had intended on becoming a stage actor. I love theater. I've always loved musicals. So that was my original goal.
00:05:22
Speaker
Um, and when I was getting close to graduating, I had a Carol Burnett plan. Carol Burnett's very famous plan was like, she's going to give herself five years to make it. Um, and then if it doesn't happen, she'll rethink things. So that's sort of what I did. Um, you know, I was like,
00:05:40
Speaker
Yeah, and she did make it for sure and I think she was like it was like almost the end of her time and she made it but I so I started auditioning for Theatre roles in the city Probably in my senior year of college And you know, it was really challenging. I Wanted to join the Actors Union so I was trying to like audition for shows that were associated with the Actors Union
00:06:12
Speaker
And the auditions were always very full, very competitive, which you're prepared for if you're a theater student or an acting student. But as I continued to go through it and more and more people were graduating, it was becoming harder and harder to get into an audition room because people were getting to the audition.
Career Transitions: From Stage to Page
00:06:35
Speaker
Fellow, the Actors Union is Actors' Equity.
00:06:38
Speaker
And so like all the non actors, equity, you know, auditionees like me, we're getting to auditions at like two, three in the morning to like, you know, start a sort of unofficial list to like get seen in the room. And auditions, technically that they wanted to audition equity actors, but sometimes it's not the actors would try to get a shot at doing it. Okay. Yes, exactly. And like, depending on how many people were.
00:07:08
Speaker
you know, supposed to be seen that day, you might get into the room. Oh, sorry. Penny, she's jumping. She wants to sit in my lap. So hang on. It's going to bonk again while I pull her in. She wants to be with me and she doesn't.
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, no, she's very sweet. She's a little Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Chihuahua mix. She's very cuddly. Cute. She's very cute. But yeah, so I was doing this for about five years and I'd gotten seen for a lot. I'd gotten a bunch of callbacks.
00:07:52
Speaker
Um, I hadn't successfully ever booked anything. I was working, um, doing theater merchandise at night because it was good for my audition schedule. But, you know, I got to a point where I was just like, my friends were, you know, getting steady jobs and, you know, I was hardly ever seeing them.
00:08:13
Speaker
Um, my work was not so steady. I had no insurance. Um, and you know, I just, I got to a point where I was just, I couldn't afford voice lessons. I couldn't afford acting classes. Um, so I got to a point where I was just like, you know what, like I'm,
00:08:31
Speaker
I only get to sing or act for like the 30 seconds I'm in an audition room. And, you know, I hustle and hustle and I don't see the people I love. And, you know, I was just like, I, this is the end of it for me. I've kind of had enough. So I reevaluated what I wanted to do with my life, which is a really scary thing to do. How many years down you're graduated?
00:09:01
Speaker
It was like at the five-year mark, honestly. Carol Burnett is smart. At that moment, you just made that choice. I think it depends on the type of career, too, right? Yeah. As to what it is, because like, for example, as an entrepreneur, like when you, I used to own a business, like five years is when you're not even breaking. You start making money after the five-year mark, you know? So you definitely have to stick on.
00:09:28
Speaker
stick with it longer. But Peter, which I was just telling you right before we started recording, that was my major as well, is a different ball game. You could... Yeah, it's just different. And I mean, the other thing is, it's not even necessarily about how good you are. You look right on a certain day in a certain light.
00:09:55
Speaker
And there are so many actors out there who will be like, no, you go in and like, you know, you make the casting director think that you're the one they wanted. And I think that does happen. But I feel like most of the time, it's like, you know, they have a certain, you know, they have something in their head. And if you're not it, they're not going to necessarily change their mind so quickly.
00:10:20
Speaker
But either way, I prefer to work at things where I'm going to see some sort of reward. I don't need to be told that I'm amazing all the time, but I do like to get some sort of recognition for the hard work that I do.
00:10:38
Speaker
So I reevaluated and I was just like, well, what can I do with the rest of my life that isn't going to make me regret every second that I'm not performing, basically?
Connecting Through Grief: A Meeting with Rabbi Steve Leder
00:10:54
Speaker
And I have been a lifelong reader, you know, as much as I was a lifelong musical theater baby. And so that was when I was like, oh, maybe I can work with books somehow. And that sort of led me down the publishing rabbit hole.
00:11:13
Speaker
And like a lot of people, I started thinking that I wanted to be a book editor, not completely realizing that being a book editor doesn't just mean you read books all day long. It's a very, very... The editors that I work with at my job are some of the smartest people I know.
00:11:36
Speaker
honest to God and Is that intimidating or how is it like to work it's around people that you're like, yeah, I mean they're just
00:11:52
Speaker
right? It stretches you. It stretches you and like they come with projects and you're just like, Oh man, like, Hey, how did you even think to like acquire this or like find this and like, you know, I can't wait to work on this. This is going to be amazing. Um,
00:12:11
Speaker
And, you know, like the book that we worked on together with Rabbi Steve Leader, like that was a situation where like, you know, the editor has done quite a few similar books. And like we had, you know, in our job, sometimes like the editor meets with the author and their agent, you know, alone, or sometimes they bring in the publicity and marketing team, just depending on the situation. And so I was lucky I got to be in this
00:12:40
Speaker
first meeting with Rabbi Leder. Oh my God. Well, you got to feel the energy too. And we all just cried. Yeah. Did it click for you too? Also coming from similar, also religious backgrounds, was that also something that it ended up like connecting to the story even more for you too? For sure.
00:13:02
Speaker
We ended up having like a sort of, he speaks in the book about how like, you know. I read the whole thing. Yes. So like, you know, when a family comes to him and he's like, you know, talking them through like what life was like with their family member. So that way A, they get closure and B, he can pull material for a eulogy.
00:13:25
Speaker
Yes.
Funeral Reflections: Jewish Mourning Traditions
00:13:26
Speaker
And I love that. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because he doesn't just say, like, tell me all the good things. Like, tell me also the things that were not that awesome. Yes. So we were talking about that in the meeting. And I was like, you know, that part of the proposal really resonated with me because, you know, when my dad passed away, it was kind of hard for me because, you know, when he passed, we hadn't spoken in over 10 years.
00:13:53
Speaker
And, you know, even at that point, like I wasn't ready to let him back into my life. And, you know, I spent the day before the funeral just like I couldn't eat because I was so scared that people were going to get on me, you know, because I hadn't spoken to him in 10 years and now I'm at his funeral and, you know, like, you know, how dare
00:14:19
Speaker
Um, but you know, there were, there were things that happened, you know, when my parents separated that were just really hard for me to look past. And I knew that for the sake of my mental health, um, you know, I just, I needed sort of make that break. And we, I spoke about that with the rabbi leader in the meeting. I was just like, I really appreciate that you're like, you know,
00:14:45
Speaker
when you have these conversations it's not all like oh what was good you know um you know let's only remember the good things about this person and i think he knew where i was coming from because his father was also difficult um and he talks about that extensively in the book too and i was just like i really really appreciated that and then he just sort of started asking me some of the questions that he asks his congregants and you know we started a sort of conversation
00:15:13
Speaker
How long had it been since your dad had died? Because it was a little therapy session I know I want to say it was probably three and a half years at that point My dad will have been gone for five years on February 16th
00:15:30
Speaker
So we're actually coming up to the anniversary. Yeah. But yeah, so, you know, I, I started the question. Yeah. What did you say? Yeah. So, I mean, it was, um,
00:15:47
Speaker
I don't remember completely and we had to stop because obviously there were other people in the room. But I remember he left and we signed the book really quickly and we were all so excited because we loved him, we knew that it was going to be really special, and we sort of all reconnected over email after everything had been made official.
00:16:12
Speaker
How are you doing our conversation was kind of heavy. I really appreciate it having it, because it's that's the thing those are the conversations that a lot of people are not willing to step into so be in spaces in which somebody actually is willing to go there with you.
00:16:32
Speaker
is necessary and especially in this dynamic in which and this is where is that okay we pivot at this moment and kind of go into that so especially in the dynamic in which you had to go through like how do people ask you then the component of like how are you doing or I'm sorry for your loss and those kind of things
00:16:50
Speaker
when it's somebody that has not been in your life for 10 years or that you had distanced yourself. So, first off, where were the circumstances surrounding your dad's death? Was it sudden? Was it illness or was it sudden? It was very sudden, actually, and it's something that I will never forget for the rest of my life. I was actually dead asleep.
00:17:17
Speaker
early to bed person because I have to get up pretty early at the time I was commuting. So I had been asleep for a couple of hours, but I always leave my phone on and plugged in on my desk. It's my alarm in the morning. I can usually sleep through text notifications, whatnot. But I was woken up because my phone was actually ringing. I thought it was my alarm, but in fact it was ringing.
00:17:38
Speaker
I pick it up and it's my youngest sister on the phone and she's in tears and she just, she said daddy's dead. And I was just like, I thought it was a joke for a second.
00:17:50
Speaker
And she was like, I just talked to him this morning and my aunt called her up and told her that he had passed. He apparently had had a heart attack. He was living with my grandfather in Florida at the time. And that's all I know. I know that he had a heart attack and they tried to get him back, but it was too late and he was gone.
00:18:18
Speaker
He had heart problems, you know, when I was growing up and he'd had at least one heart attack that I remember from my childhood.
00:18:29
Speaker
But yeah, he was only 63. None of us had expected it. So he passed in Florida. And because we're Jewish, he needs to get buried as quickly as possible. That's the custom. So my middle sister actually lives in Florida as well. So she saw the body off.
00:18:56
Speaker
From the airport and then they flew it up to New York and we had the funeral the next day
00:19:04
Speaker
So you're able to have it in New York, even though- Yes, because that's where the burial plot is. And, you know, that's where most of the family still is. Like, my aunt lives in New Jersey. Some of our far-flung cousins live here. And, you know, that's where the family grew up. So, yeah, it was kind of
00:19:29
Speaker
traumatic almost just because we found out so quickly and then you know two seconds later a funeral was happening and it was like I hadn't even processed it yet and yeah it wasn't until like you know we I watched them lower the coffin into the ground and they started like you know burying it that it hit
00:20:00
Speaker
So how was that for
The Healing Power of Rituals: Shiva and Shloshim
00:20:02
Speaker
you? So you were in contact with your mom and your sisters that you didn't have a relationship with. They had a relationship with them. Did your sisters have a relationship with your dad? They did. They did, okay. Yes, and that was their choice. My middle sister, I think, might have stepped away a little, but my youngest sister always had a very close relationship with my dad.
00:20:28
Speaker
So then you're here, you're seeing, you know, his coffin go down. Like, what are the emotions that go through when you have not, like, oh my gosh, like, and again, like even going with, you know, rabbi leaders, you know, book to hang on, she's back. She interrupts the very serious parts of the conversation.
00:20:51
Speaker
Well, she's our ice breaker, right? Yes, she is. Let's just break. This is getting too deep. Let me sit with you, mom. Let me speak into the microphone. OK, you were saying.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah. So how do you deal with the emotional component then of grieving somebody you did not have a relationship in that moment with? Of course, this is your father. So regardless of the dynamics of what was happening in that moment, there's still things from the past, memories, so forth. So tell us a little bit of that duality of grieving
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, you sort of hit the nail on the head with it. And that like, you know, it was my dad, and he was now gone. And I was one parent less on this earth. And I was only I was barely 32. Like I wasn't going to turn 32 until May that year. So like,
00:21:51
Speaker
I'd lost him pretty young. And I never expected that. Like it was a new year. My vocabulary did not include my dad died, you know? So that loss, you know, I felt it acutely, even though I hadn't spoken to him in a very long time. You know, at the same time, you're dealing with the fact that because you were estranged,
00:22:21
Speaker
and didn't really have much of a relationship anymore again it's it was like i was mentioning earlier like you know you're worried that people are going to come at you and be like you know who the hell are you like you didn't speak to him for x amount of time you have no right to this
00:22:37
Speaker
Like you have no right to any, like even for your emotions or no right to even be here, no right for even things that are in the will, those kind of things, like those no right type of things? Yes, all of that. And like, you know, the first interaction with my aunt and my grandfather at the funeral was painfully awkward.
00:23:02
Speaker
And they sort of thanked me like a stranger, which is honestly to be expected, but at the same time, it's like, regardless of what relationship I had with him, I was still grieving the loss. So yeah, it was challenging. But it was also something that I worked through because in Judaism, when you lose a parent, you mourn for an entire 11 months.
00:23:38
Speaker
And that's something I didn't get to touch upon in the interview with Rabbi Leder regarding
00:23:46
Speaker
the actual beauty behind that because it gives you permission to say no to things when you don't feel like going to a celebration or going. It gives you permission because it's part of your ritual of not participating in events during those 11 months. Yeah. That, I think, was the most powerful tool in
00:24:11
Speaker
the grieving process for me was this custom that's built into my religion and you know people will do it to varying degrees but I was pretty strict about it like two of my best friends were getting married about a month after my father passed and I had to call them and tell them I can't come to your wedding anymore and that you know ripped my heart out but at the same time like
00:24:40
Speaker
It means that you can't just be like, okay, you know, it's over. He's buried. I'm gonna like, you know, go back to life now as it was. And, you know, that's it. Like the fact that you have to sit with the loss for that amount of time, you really and truly process what's happened to you.
00:25:00
Speaker
Uh-oh, sorry, she's going to bark because my downstairs neighbor just slammed the downstairs door, so she has to tell me all about it.
Comfort in Companionship: Pets and Healing
00:25:09
Speaker
Go yell at them. Good girl. Are they amazing, by the way? Sorry, how old is she? She's four.
00:25:20
Speaker
So you've had her less time than the... Hasn't she been essential in this process for you too? So I had a dog before her. I had him for a very long time. He passed away.
00:25:37
Speaker
In 2019 and I had had him for 12 years So he was with me When I found out about my dad and he basically didn't leave my side until I so we after you know in Judaism after you buried your loved one and
00:25:55
Speaker
the family does something called Shiva. They sit for seven days and people come and visit and basically take care of you, you know, like they bring you food, you know, they talk to you, they comfort you. And so we sat Shiva in my youngest sister's apartment in Brooklyn, so he couldn't come with me.
00:26:21
Speaker
And that was really, really hard. Like I left him at his boarding place and I was just a sobbing mess. I was like, you know, I've been, you know, cuddling and using him as my comfort for the last 24 hours. And the fact that I'm not going to see him for the next seven days is really hard.
00:26:43
Speaker
Um, but he was definitely a comfort that entire year. Um, and you know, she might, my little girl is, um, the best comfort now in this really just.
00:27:00
Speaker
horrific kind of time like she's Sales of did you so how long have you had penny then because your dog your first dog? How how you said 2019? Yes, and I was 14
00:27:16
Speaker
He was 14. Did you already have Penny or did you get Penny after? No, I got Penny after. So he did not get along very well with other dogs. He was very much like a, you know, the house had to be a one human kind of house. But he was the very best boy and I wouldn't change anything about him.
00:27:35
Speaker
So he passed away and I was honestly ready to adopt again right away. But I was going on a trip and I didn't want to bring a new dog into my home and then have to leave them behind while I go away for a week. So I was like, let me just wait until I get back.
00:27:54
Speaker
And I was in touch with the rescue that I'd gotten my previous dog from, you know, to just to let them know that he had passed. And that I would definitely be interested in, you know, rescuing another dog.
00:28:11
Speaker
And a couple of days after I got back, I called to let them know that I was back and that I was ready to start the process. If they had any dogs to meet, I'd love to meet them. And so my childhood dog and my heart dog were both cocker spaniels. So I really was hoping to get another cocker spaniel.
00:28:39
Speaker
Which Penny is part. She's a Cavalier, no, so she's a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel and a Chihuahua, so she's sort of in the family. She has that King Charles. But I honestly still like, you know,
00:28:54
Speaker
they didn't have very many cocker spaniels in the rescue at the time that were ready for adoption and they're like but we have this really sweet little mix would you be open to meeting her and I was like I will meet any dog so we went and we met her and the minute they brought her out like hold on she's asking to come up yet again can you stay here maybe
00:29:22
Speaker
You're so silly. Mine's like, mine's like so asleep right now. She's like laying on the bed. I think that she keeps coming up because I have my attention on you and not on her. She's, you know.
00:29:39
Speaker
has it been like amazing so you see her come out they bring her out they bring her out and they you know so they put her in my arm she's very small she's only 13 pounds and my previous dog was 30 so that was that was a difference um but like she she came into my arms and she started giving me kisses right away
00:29:59
Speaker
And she was so sweet and just so tiny. And I was just like, just put away the foster to adopt papers and give me the adoption papers. And we brought her home that day. And she has been the most wonderful little bundle. She absolutely helped heal my heart from that loss, which was,
00:30:27
Speaker
earth-shatteringly devastating in a way that Yeah, how what was your dog's name Hershey Hershey,
Mourning Customs Revisited: Processing Loss
00:30:37
Speaker
so that is that is one thing too that people sometimes don't especially people that don't have pets don't necessarily understand and it's you know the amount the bond that there is yeah, and that just as much as you can grieve and
00:30:55
Speaker
the death of somebody in your life that's a human, you can also grieve the death of a dog, but also the aspect then of this healing. So Hershey was there for you when you're healing and your journey with grief with your dad's passing, and then now he's in your life helping you grieve, you know, your grieving journey of Hershey's passing. So what a beautiful cycle.
00:31:18
Speaker
So let's go back then again to then your dad and then the funeral and the aspects and the tools. You mentioned then holding Shiva, doing the 11 months. What is the 11 month period called in Judaism when you weren't? I don't think it has a formal name. So Shiva is the first seven days. Then you have what's called the shloshim, which is the first 30 days.
00:31:47
Speaker
So that's in combination with the Shiva. So the Shiva is the most severe morning. When you're sitting, you're not really supposed to shower. You're supposed to wear the same clothes. When you go to the burial, the rabbi will make a cut in your clothing for you to tear. So you wear that torn shirt.
00:32:11
Speaker
Every day that you're sitting. You're not supposed to cut your nails like it's basically, you know, it's a physical outward manifestation of your grief like it's so all consuming that you can't take care of yourself.
00:32:27
Speaker
you know, there's a little leeway, of course, like, you know, for the Sabbath, which, you know, Shiva ultimately runs into, yes, take a shower. You know, for some, like, not, not showering is not an option. Obviously, if you're like, in Shiva, Shiva with a lot of, yes, oh, I could imagine that, yes, maybe, um, yes, I'd maybe stop.
00:32:54
Speaker
Well, I'm like, you know, obviously change your undergarments every single day, please. You know, it's not to make you sick. But you know, it's just in order to respect giving you that yes, by chance you really do not feel like yeah.
00:33:10
Speaker
in that moment in your grief to take care of yourself outwardly. It's just like giving you permission. It's the giving permission period. You can fall apart. You're expected to. Whatever you want to feel right now. It doesn't mean that if you by chance shower, it's something that
00:33:32
Speaker
You're given permission to not have to do those things. Just like you're given permission not to cook, you're given so that others can bring it to you, take care of you, because to some extent, for some people, their grief may be so great.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yes. So brand that they can't physically do it. Yes. So it's that permission. Yes, exactly. So those are the most that's the most severe part of the morning. The 30 days, you know, is somewhat of an extension, like you're again, not supposed to cut your hair. You know, men are advised like not to shave their beard.
00:34:09
Speaker
But you're not wearing your Shiva clothes anymore. You've come back to life slowly but surely, like you're going back to work and things like that. And then after the 30 days are over, that's when you go into the rest of your 11 months of mourning.
00:34:30
Speaker
And again, it doesn't have a formal name as far as I know, but the person who's mourning is called an avel in Hebrew, which means a mourner. So that 11 months is avelus, which is mourning. And during those 11 months, you light a memorial candle
00:34:55
Speaker
And my sister and I both got these like big seven day candles, but they also come in like three day and then like the little one day ones that you see in the supermarket at Rosh Hashanah and stuff like that. So we lit a candle every week in memory of my dad.
00:35:14
Speaker
for that entire 11 months. And then, you know, throughout those 11 months, like we sort of touched on, you don't do anything sort of celebratory. So that's no parties, no weddings.
00:35:29
Speaker
no live theater or concerts, no movies, no big festive large gatherings, you know, basically nothing that's going to take you out of, you know, the state of mourning so that you don't, yes, exactly. So that, you know, you feel your feelings and really and truly come to terms with the enormity of the loss in front of you.
00:35:56
Speaker
Um, and you know, some still do go to things like, you know, they'll go to a wedding, but like, you know, you don't dance or you help serve or something like that. Like, you know, there, there are ways, like if you, if you, if you feel really strongly about being involved in someone's celebration,
00:36:20
Speaker
without celebrating yourself, you can. But, you know, that's sort of the way that the 11 months are structured. And so for you, you really observed it very strictly now. Yes. So for example, the two friends that you weren't able to go to, you chose, let me just put it that way. You chose not to go to their wedding because you were following then your morning period. Yes. How, for example, did they
00:36:48
Speaker
How did others react in that process of you following so strictly your grieving process? I'm just, again, curious because I'm sure that component must have also played a part in your whole dynamic again with your dad too, right? With the estrangement as you're grieving him and then people like being surprised. So how was that dynamic?
00:37:17
Speaker
This is actually I'm already starting to cry um My friends are the best people in the world When I called my friends to tell them that I couldn't come to their wedding hold on dog is reacting again So when I told them that I couldn't come to their wedding they told me not even to worry about it um You know they said that they would miss having me there, but that obviously this was a
00:37:47
Speaker
a situation that, you know, didn't even warrant like an, you know, how could you kind of reaction? Or like, can you come but not dance kind of reaction? They were just like, you know, we'll miss you. But you know, you're going through something really terrible.
00:38:05
Speaker
and then the entire time that I was mourning they just stepped up and Rabbi Leder talks about this in the book like you know when
00:38:21
Speaker
People ask like, what can I do for my friend who has lost somebody? Stepping up is the best possible thing you can do. And I am absolutely wholeheartedly agree with that. They curbed their lives basically to help me sort of not be alone.
00:38:47
Speaker
and that's a debt that i will i hope that i can repay someday when they go through something horrible hopefully not a death but you know um it just it meant the world to me that you know they kept gathering small
00:39:03
Speaker
that you know we hung out a lot in somebody's kitchen just four or five of us you know doing a puzzle or playing games or you know watching tv and having dinner together at home like they did that for 11 months for me that's beautiful so i i would have fallen apart without them well and truly they saved my life
00:39:33
Speaker
So they were one of your biggest tools then in your grieving process. Yes, absolutely. The aspect of having them, one, be understanding, two, be so accommodating and
00:39:50
Speaker
Even adapting what they would have normally done socially in order to make sure to include you in ways that you could you could be included like Instead of going hey, we're gonna go out to a movie tonight. They'd be like, okay No, let's all hang out and play board games at Farron's house or let's go to so-and-so's house and just this all hang out and
00:40:08
Speaker
accommodating to what you were able to participate in during those 11 months. So would you say they were one of your biggest kind of pillars in this journey? Absolutely, without a doubt.
00:40:24
Speaker
How do you know them, by the way, your friends? Are they childhood friends? Are they more your college friends? This particular group are people that I met in college, for the most part. We've been friends for over 20 years.
00:40:42
Speaker
uh which is kind of insane or like close to 20 years um and like a lot of them have actually known each
Estrangement and the Right to Grieve
00:40:52
Speaker
other since high school i was one of the last people to sort of be inducted into this group for lack of a better word um and again i'm incredibly fortunate um they are some of
00:41:06
Speaker
the most wonderful, caring people that I know. And, you know, if it were someone else in the group, we would all do the same. You know, it's just, it's how we are together. We just value each other very much. So yeah, and luckily now we all live pretty near each other. So, you know, there's a real support system there. So they really,
00:41:36
Speaker
helped me get through. You know, like I said, if they hadn't been there, I don't know what I would have done.
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's that is so amazing. Now what other tools did you have to go let's say to therapy or things like that in order to kind of address the and you can answer this or not by the way any question I ask if there's anything that I'm kind of going out of bounds of asking we don't feel answering please don't don't don't you know say pass but
00:42:09
Speaker
What? Yeah, in order to be able to deal with that dynamic again, the component of I don't know if there were a lot of feelings of guilt or things like that, having been estranged from your dad. Did you have to go to any of that? Or did you deal with it mainly with yourself?
00:42:28
Speaker
Um, so I, I dealt with it mainly myself. Um, and you know, I talked about it with my youngest sister. Um, you know, she's the other thing that really got me through everything. Um, because she lived so close by, you know, we made an effort
00:42:45
Speaker
To see each other as much as we could during those eleven months and you know i had a young nephew at the time so we would get together play with my nephew we would talk about you know.
00:43:00
Speaker
um, how we were doing and what we were feeling at that particular moment in time. Um, so that definitely helped, you know, because we had, you know, a mostly shared experience in this case. Um, but you know, I just, you know, I use those 11 months to just sort of sit with everything. Um, and it helped me come to terms with two things. The first thing is that I don't regret
00:43:30
Speaker
What I did or my choice I should say Like I said it it was the best thing for me and I still believe that and You know if he was still alive would that be different? Would I maybe be open to reconciling now who can say I? Honestly don't know But you know I had time to sort of sit with that and you know
00:44:00
Speaker
Really, you know be honest with myself of whether I regretted it or not and I didn't And there were relatives who would say to me over the years you're gonna regret it if you don't patch things up but I Honestly don't you know, he was a great dad to me growing up But there came a point where he was He just changed from the dad that I knew growing up
00:44:26
Speaker
And I couldn't be around that. You have to protect yourself. And you're not the first person I know that has had to do that as an adult and that that dynamic of your relationship with your parent that has changed and choosing to do so is actually more of an act of love, actually for yourself too and for your own well-being dynamic. Yeah.
00:44:48
Speaker
Um, so that's the first thing. And then the second thing that I learned sitting in my grief is that I had a right to it. You know, regardless
Emotional Tools: Yoga and Fiction as Escape
00:45:01
Speaker
of what my relationship was with my father and regardless of what other people thought based on that, you know, the fact was I had a loss.
00:45:15
Speaker
And it's a loss no matter what And you know I can grieve that loss no matter what people think so Yeah So wise that is so wise and that wisdom came from you allowing to also just again sit with your grief because if you had just gotten back to the
00:45:41
Speaker
busyness of life or so forth, you might still be five years later still wondering the what ifs and the what ifs, but because you allowed yourself to feel and sit and analyze and tear apart all the feeling, anything that you had going on within your grief that you were able to reconcile with these two major parts of these emotions. That's wonderful.
00:46:09
Speaker
Now, in those 11 months, did you journal? Since you said you read a lot, did you read books on grief? Did you journal? Did you listen to podcasts? I don't know how many. I only discovered podcasts probably in the last probably five years. What were some other tools you used in that journey?
00:46:31
Speaker
um i started practicing yoga actually um you know it was something that i kind of dabbled in i i had a not so great experience with it in high school it was a our phys ed teacher you know with all the best intentions brought in a yoga instructor to like for like a few classes but she spoke you know
00:46:56
Speaker
in a way that high school students wouldn't necessarily process things. And she was asking us to do things that were kind of hard for a high school student to do, like, you know, empty your mind and focus and things like that. You know, think about your chakras and things. And I was just like, I was like, you know, it's not for me. Foreign language. I know. She just got into the asanas and like, you know,
00:47:22
Speaker
Asanas or poses, I shouldn't speak like people listening know yoga. But if she had just gotten to that right away, I'm like taking some of the more deep stuff out of it.
00:47:33
Speaker
we might have been a little more receptive but it was so I but long story short I came out of that experience and I was like I don't know if this is right um and then you know throughout as I was growing older like you know I would dabble in the poses here and there um you know for stretching basically um but it was during those 11 months that I started you know
00:48:00
Speaker
I found Yoga with Adrienne on YouTube, like lots of other people. And I just, you know, I was like, let's give this a try. Oh, sorry. She's panting right near the microphone right now. Everybody, it is not fair in planting. It's my little dog. She's in my lap. She insists, can you, can we stop?
00:48:22
Speaker
No. Okay. Sorry. You might hear her for the rest of the interview. Um, but so I, you know, I, I said, let's just give this a try. So I tried a video, um, and I really enjoyed it. I got really sweaty, which I didn't think you could do with yoga. So I just, I started doing it on a more regular basis and, um, you know, just learning how to,
00:48:49
Speaker
marry like, you know, the poses with my breath. And you do a lot of breath work as a theater student. So it's something that I already had a foundation in. So I think that helped me that was a gateway to because like, it wasn't so crazy for me at that point in my life to be like, you know,
00:49:08
Speaker
to your diaphragm. Exactly. And like, you know, you know, doing alignment and stuff like that. So it was a blessing in disguise, I guess. I, you know, I got into yoga in my 30s because I was ready for it, basically. That's true. You touched upon something interesting, because that's the thing a lot of times, too. Like, one, don't don't give up on something you might have not liked before. It's kind of like trying the food one time and then maybe trying it later on. You might, you know, you might like it then.
00:49:37
Speaker
Same with experiences because we grow so much and change so much. Yeah. And where we are in our life, we may be ready to receive that. So it's a great, um, a great little learning thing that you're sharing with us here for all of us. Yeah. So, so then that was one of the things and yoga. Yep. And I, yeah, I just, I started practicing regularly and that definitely, you know, it was another thing about, you know, I guess just like centering yourself.
00:50:07
Speaker
you know, in a time where you can feel really unmoored. And, you know, just sort of taking care by moving mostly gently. Although, you know, there are yoga poses and practices that are really hard. And you need that too, like, you know, just like physically sweating out, like, you know, whatever's bothering you today.
00:50:37
Speaker
Um, that really helped. What a good mirror to life too. And what you were experiencing in that moment, what mirrored it beautifully because it was basically in some of these emotions, you're going to have to go through them gently and these emotions of grief, like kind of just ease into them. And some other ones you might just have to like face them strong, like just go ahead and just
00:50:58
Speaker
like hop on that head and do a headstand type of thing, you know, like our crow pose or whatever, you know, one of those things, you know, just so that is, yeah, it mimicked what you were kind of going through as well. Yeah. As far as like reading and journaling, so I didn't take up journaling.
00:51:21
Speaker
You know, it was something that I, I feel like, so I, I'm not a regular journaler, although of course I, of course I have journaled. But I feel like my emotions, like putting those emotions down on a page was a little too raw, I guess. Like I, I have like a handful of journal entries from that time.
00:51:47
Speaker
But it just didn't feel like the right outlet necessarily for me in that place. And as far as reading goes, I also don't think I was ready to read books about dealing with my grief. And I think that that's something that a lot of people feel.
00:52:06
Speaker
Um, you know, I think that there's definitely like a solid, like there's a camp of people who like when they experience a loss, they want to read more about it right away. And then there are others who like they just they need it to not be so immediate before they start reading more about it. And I was in that latter camp. So I honestly I did a lot of comfort reading.
00:52:29
Speaker
You know, I went back to favorite books or like, you know, new books in my favorite genres. And I just sort of used those for like a momentary escape. Like fiction, like more like fiction. Yeah, like I when I when I want to read for pure fun, I like to read a lot of mystery thriller. I also like historical fiction and some contemporary fiction.
00:52:58
Speaker
So I was doing a lot of that kind of reading at that time.
00:53:03
Speaker
And it was, you know, it was what I needed, you know, in between when you're reading manuscripts for work, which we do a lot. And then you come into, in that, you know, in the, it's been almost five years, then you also then end up having to, you know, market a book about grief. Now, in this, what does your grief look like now, almost five years
Waves of Grief: Rituals and Memories
00:53:26
Speaker
later? What does it look like now?
00:53:28
Speaker
So there's something else that Rabbi Leader says in the book that I think is
00:53:33
Speaker
100% accurate and it's that it comes in waves and that you know sometimes I think you can probably relate to this with your own loss is that sometimes you know you feel normal you know it's always with you but like it doesn't hurt so much today you know you're you're going on with life and then you know
00:54:00
Speaker
at some point suddenly like it hits you and you know that sadness comes back for a minute or like you know on a particular day. For me that's always at the Jewish holidays when we say the memorial prayer Yizkor. We say that three times a year and every time like I know that it's the day
00:54:29
Speaker
like, I inevitably feel sadder. You know, because I'm about to say, yeah, anticipation of it, that that's the day you're gonna say that prayer. Yeah. And like, you know, you, you say the name, the Hebrew name of your loved one in that prayer. And there's something about, you know, saying, the prayer literally translates to, remember the soul,
00:54:53
Speaker
of my father, then you say your father's name or your mother, whomever has passed, who has gone to the next world, basically. So those words are very powerful words. So the anticipation that I'm going to say that and just sort of reaffirm my father is no longer in this world, those days are always hard. And then, of course, the anniversary of the passing is always hard.
00:55:22
Speaker
How do you honor those days like either traditionally in your Jewish faith or also just as a family with your sister? Is there anything special you do?
00:55:38
Speaker
We always check in with each other on the anniversary day, you know, whether that's a grouped text or, you know, actually getting on FaceTime, you know, whatever we're sort of feeling or whatever we need that day. And then, you know, traditionally, you light a memorial candle. And then, you know, there are any number of like, they, the
00:56:03
Speaker
ideas that you do some sort of good deed in that person's name that day because it's special, it honors their spirit and who they were in life. So what I like to do every year is I like to make a donation to my father's high school.
00:56:23
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah, well, because what he used to always tell us stories about how much he loved his experience in that high school. Like every, every Friday night, like, you know, we would be sitting around after dinner and we would be like, tell us this story from school, daddy. And he would and like he had his old high school yearbook and you know, we would go through it and he would like talk to us about
00:56:50
Speaker
his classmates or like what this photo means or something so you know I when like the first year celebration came around I was like well what what's meaningful you know I don't want to just like give money to some random charity and I knew that his high school was you know very important so
00:57:15
Speaker
every year I donate in his memory to their funds. The aspect of giving to something that's memorable or that's meaningful to the person that has passed, not only for us, but for the person that has passed, that's so beautiful. Because you hear people donating to, for example, if somebody died of
00:57:34
Speaker
cancer and certain different things like that. And then you give to those organizations, which is beautiful. But I had never heard of, for example, giving to the high school that they went to that brought so many fond memories to them and in their life.
00:57:49
Speaker
I love that. I love that idea. You've shared so many amazing ideas, Farron, of your journey, the tools that you use, the importance of creating your own support group, creating your own.
00:58:05
Speaker
your own people, your own tribe to help you through this, that just really understand you and the value of that and what that played in your life. Now, what would you say in this experience of grief has been something that either your
00:58:21
Speaker
grown from, or that you are grateful for having gone through something so hard. And again, I never, when I asked this question, I always have to have free face that it's never that we are saying that we're happy that this happened, but that we are grateful for the things that have come because of it.
Strength and Resilience: Growing from Grief
00:58:42
Speaker
It's again, even going to the title of Rabbi Leaders
00:58:45
Speaker
you know, book that we've mentioned of the beauty of what remains, what is kind of like, again, what do you see now differently in life? Um, so
00:58:59
Speaker
I guess, and I feel like this is probably going to sound a little cliche, but it's definitely something that is true, is that you're stronger than you think you are. Because like, you know, this is one of the most horrific things that could happen to you in your whole life.
00:59:19
Speaker
You know, um, regardless of what your relationship is with the person, it's still a horrific thing. And, you know, the fact that you get through it and you're still standing,
00:59:34
Speaker
Like, what a, what a thing. Like, you know, what a testament to ourselves and our humanity. You know, that we can, we can go through something like this, and not just our humanity, our resilience.
00:59:50
Speaker
Yes. And that just has shown even just this year, I say this year, this, you know, now we're kind of going into, it's almost going to be a year since we've all been experiencing what's going on in the world with the pandemic, but the resilience of the human spirit, it's just amazing. And the way in which people are so creative and with all the creativity that has come.
01:00:12
Speaker
The going through something this strong, so hard to realize you're so strong, how has that then influenced other areas of your life of how you carry difficulties and challenges?
01:00:31
Speaker
I mean, I don't know if it's had a direct influence on that, if I'm honest with you. Like, you know, it, I, I don't know if I necessarily go into situations and I'm like, you know, I can handle anything because I made it through this horrible tragedy. Um, I mean, consciously, maybe, yeah, I was gonna say, maybe it's an unconscious thing where it's like, you know,
01:00:57
Speaker
it's different posture that occurs yeah yeah or just like you know like maybe it's it's just a general like attitude i don't know or it's just like you know
01:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's weirdly the hardest question for me to answer. I was just like, I don't know. No, you know what? It's so true, though. I wouldn't know if I could answer that question either. I think it's because it's something we all go through hard things. That means every human being goes through struggles. Every human being goes through some type of loss in their life all the time. And we're constantly, again, just showing ourselves that we can get up
01:01:37
Speaker
you know, and keep going and, and that we are like, again, using that word resilience again, we are resilient. And it is a testament to the human spirit is just really how resilient we are and, and strong, like you said. So I you're right. Like maybe, maybe it is not maybe it's not that you don't have the right answer is just maybe it's just not a good question.
01:02:03
Speaker
I just thought I'd ask. I'm like, oh, I wonder, like, how does this... By the way, because in my conversations, I don't plan anything out of any questions of anything that I'm going to ask. That's good though. The conversation flows. I'm like, whatever pops in my head, I just want to say something.
01:02:19
Speaker
The question may not be a good one. Yeah, I don't know. I wish I could say, but I mean, yeah, and it's, you know, it's not like, I mean, it's not even like one of those things where it's like, you know, I live every day, like, it's my last, because I don't. Yeah, because it's, it's, well, the reality is that every day could be right, but we don't necessarily take that
01:02:42
Speaker
Because if we did that too, like how different would that be? Would some people- Exactly. It's like I'd never go to work. Exactly. If you just quit my job then because I don't know- I don't want to go travel the world. Who cares that it's a pandemic? This could be my last day. Exactly. Yeah. There's some things that we do have to kind of restrict ourselves from doing and having that mindset. Yeah.
01:03:04
Speaker
It how else would you or what else would you want to say to the listeners in terms of your grief journey or any words of wisdom? I mean, I'll just come back to it again. Like
01:03:22
Speaker
Sit with it as much as you can. Work through it. Cry every single day. It doesn't matter. If that's what's helping you get through what just happened to you, do it. If you need to bury it for a minute, fine.
01:03:45
Speaker
You know, don't bury it away forever. And don't let anyone rush you out of it either. Like, you know, just because someone else thinks it's time for you to move on doesn't mean it is. And, you know, if you feel like I should be over this right now and you're not, you're not ready to be over it.
01:04:08
Speaker
The time will come and just be patient, be kind to yourself, and you know, there will be better days than this, basically.
01:04:28
Speaker
Perfect, perfect way to end this conversation with those wise words. Thank you so much, Farron. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing something that is not easy. And I'm just grateful for you to trusting the process here of our conversation. Of course. And thank you for tolerating my very clingy dog, who I love. She'll be so happy when I go back and sit with her.
01:04:57
Speaker
Thank you, Penny, for allowing mommy to talk. Thank you so much. Thank you.
01:05:09
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:05:38
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.