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Cult and Camp in Halloween Horror
147 Plays3 years ago
Here on APT we’ve talked about fandom and we’ve talked about cults, so in this episode we’re inviting you to... come up to our lab and see what’s on the slab! This marks our second discussion in this year’s Artloween series, and we are diving into Halloween cult and camp. What makes a film a cult classic and how some of our most cherished haunted films, have a certain campiness about them? From Rocky Horror, to Jennifer’s Body we don't want to leave you in antici….pation…..!
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Transcript
Introduction to Pop Talk
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to our Pop Talk. I'm Bianca. And I'm Gianna. Here on APT we've been talking about fandom and we've talked about cults in the past.
What Makes Cult Films Special?
00:00:12
Speaker
So today we are inviting you to come up to the lab and see what's on this lab. Because it's only fitting that we dive into cult films today.
00:00:25
Speaker
Well, how about that? Today marks our second discussion in this year's Art Lewis series, and today we are diving into Halloween culty and campy classics. What makes a film a cult classic and how some of the most cherished haunted films have a certain campiness about them? From Rocky Horror to Jennifer's Body, we don't want to leave you in Antisa. Patient.
00:00:55
Speaker
So let's art pop talk. Yo, yo, yo. Howdy, howdy. Oh, howdy, howdy. I like that. I had a colleague who used to always send his emails howdy.
Unexpected City Similarities
00:01:11
Speaker
I want to start doing that.
00:01:13
Speaker
Yeah, I thought it was cute. I should start doing that up in Boston because I feel like that would really throw people off. Oh, do it. Yeah. That would be so funny. Keep the misconception of the Midwest alive. No, totally. I already feel like I got like a little bit of an interaction with that because there were some amazing, like very nice people that we met whenever we were moving in. But they were like, you're from Oklahoma, right? And like, I was like, here we go.
00:01:40
Speaker
There we go. And they were like, so are you from like the city? And I was like, yeah, from Oklahoma City. And actually, fun fact that Andrew and I learned, which I'm very glad that I have in my back pocket now is that Oklahoma City and Boston roughly have the same population size. Like it's very close in population. So I kind of like feel like I can whip that out.
00:02:08
Speaker
But I feel as though I should start using Howdy in all of my greetings. Yeah, I think you should do it. I think that's hysterical. The last interaction I had like that, which is probably truthfully one of the last times I just was able to interact with human beings outside of my close circle, you know, pre-COVID. But it was Christmas 2019 and we were staying in that
00:02:37
Speaker
Oh my god, was that Christmas? When did we go to New York and we stayed in that Airbnb in Soho? And our Airbnb person, she was there and she was renting out her roommate's room. I think that was like two years ago. Or I mean like 2018. That was like, yeah. I think it was 2018 Christmas, not 2019. Because then we stayed in that weird, hostile 2019. But anyways. Yeah.
00:03:03
Speaker
Airbnb host was super nice. But she was like, oh my gosh, like, you guys should go see like a drag show. Have you ever been to a drag show? Like, do you know what drag is? And I was like, bitch, please. Oh my gosh, you guys should go see a drag show. And I'm like, really? What may not be crazy? What is drag? It was just funny. Like, have you guys ever been to a bar before? Like,
00:03:29
Speaker
A gay bar? Wow, you should go here. And I was like, cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. I always wanted to do something with that TikTok audio about the cows. It's like, it's a cow farm. There's gotta be cows outside. I feel like I should talk like that when I get to Boston. It's a cow farm.
00:04:00
Speaker
Oh, man. That's good stuff. I love it when you laugh excessively at hero jokes. She just keeps going, folks. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That's so funny. Anyway, how's your month of Art Luin going so far?
00:04:30
Speaker
It's good, you know, I had some assignments that I also had to accomplish for this episode had to watch some Halloween movies I had never seen before. And then I really also just felt like
00:04:46
Speaker
watching some of the classics. So I started watching Rocky Horror last night. I'm halfway through and I'll pick it back up. But Phoebe hasn't seen Rocky Horror. So I've been taking him through some of the good movies. He hasn't seen Beetlejuice yet. So that is on our list. Yeah. So even though this was not really a super scary movie, I didn't want to watch Jennifer's Body by myself. I just
00:05:13
Speaker
don't enjoy watching any scary movie by myself, I think. As we'll talk about it, I think it's a very social
Dopesick and the Opioid Crisis
00:05:19
Speaker
thing. But anyways, I made The Bin watch Jennifer's Body with me, and we'll get into that later, but I had some thoughts.
00:05:27
Speaker
That's good. I am like saving up all of my Halloween movies because I'm moving to Boston the last week of October. And like, I don't know, I just want to watch like Halloween movies with Andrew. But this weekend I might watch a few with Juliana.
00:05:45
Speaker
We'll see, I really wanna start watching some, but I just haven't yet. Also, I was like, even though as we'll get into, you're totally right about Jennifer's body, but I did have to watch it by myself, and honestly, I was scared. I just don't like being surprised. Well, that is not the field for you. It is not, so I need some, I just need another body there, just another human being. He fell asleep and it didn't even matter, like I just needed like,
00:06:16
Speaker
I don't know the idea of him to be there. Sure. All right. Well, are we ready for a little art news? Now, this isn't necessarily like a huge art news story for you today. It was a little dry in the art news world this week, perhaps, but Gianna and I have some, you know, idea wheels turning in the back of our heads and something that we've been thinking about.
00:06:43
Speaker
pairs along well with this kind of art news story that may be, you know, upcoming. And it's actually about the new series Dopesick, which will be coming out on Hulu. The show adapts Beth Macy's investigative bestseller about the cause of the opioid epidemic and specifically the role that the family run Purdue Pharma company had. And then the chairman Richard Sackler, what
00:07:10
Speaker
role he played in getting America quote unquote hooked on oxy oxy cotton. Pharma execs and sales rep insisted that the painkiller was both non addictive and long lasting. So John, I cannot remember if we've talked about this before an APT, I really think that we have, like back in the day, also, I may have talked about it in relation to my thesis, because
00:07:32
Speaker
a member of the Sackler family, Elizabeth, though not actually involved in the pharmaceutical company, founded the Sackler Center for Feminist Art at the Brooklyn Museum. And then artist Nan Golden has been addressing the Sackler name in relation to museums and educational institutions in her PAIN, P-A-I-N organization, founded in 2017. PAIN addresses the crisis of
00:07:58
Speaker
the ongoing drug war by targeting the pharmaceutical companies that have profited off the addictions and the deaths of half a million Americans. They say quote, we are not anti-opioid, we are anti big pharma. They write that quote, our first focus was on the toxic philanthropy of the billionaire Sackler family who ignited the opioid overdose epidemic with their blockbuster drug OxyContin. We've exposed the institutions and have been complicit by accepting their donations for years.
00:08:28
Speaker
And through direct action, we've successfully pushed many museums and universities to refuse Sackler funding and cut ties with the family. Most recently, along with other advocates, we formed the Oxy Justice Coalition to demand accountability
00:08:45
Speaker
for the Sacklers in bankruptcy court and followed them to Congress. So this series premieres on Hulu this week on October 13th. And within it, it does seem like there's some hints of, you know, museums in the trailers. So we'll see what attachments we get to that and how kind of museums function within the show. And then again, if this sparks a conversation of museums addressing their backers, you know, IRL, so. Yeah, I, uh,
00:09:15
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I don't really have many major thoughts on this one, to be honest. This is not a Hulu ad, but I wish it was. We both saw the trailer and we were like, oh yeah, we should watch that. And we made that association. If you did talk about the Sacklers, it was definitely way back in the day in PT, your situation. So it's OK if you guys are like, do these bitches not talk about this or am I crazy?
00:09:42
Speaker
So as riveting as my commentary is on this art news story, I feel as though I might be ready to get into today's discussion.
Impact of Halloween Cult Films
00:09:51
Speaker
For today's Art Pop Talk, we're talking about super underground things. You've probably never heard of them, mostly films. They're totally not in the norm. Beetlejuice, Rocky Corps, Fall Out Boy, anything from A24.
00:10:13
Speaker
But in all spookiness, we are transitioning from our kitsch and cutesy discussion of Halloween to camp and cult when it comes to classic horror films. Why do many of our cherished Halloween movies possess campy aesthetics and plots? And why are a lot of these films considered to be cult classics, a genre that could be seen as controversial or low budget, but kept alive by hardcore fans?
00:10:43
Speaker
All right. I'm very excited. Gianna, do you want to start us off with a little cult energy in history? So similar to how we talked about kitsch being hard to explain or encapsulate because it takes shapes in a variety of different garish ways, the development of cult to where it is now plays into nostalgia. It can exist as a historical marker or super intense passion trend or a fad.
00:11:10
Speaker
But because it can exist differently to different people, that is part of the reason why cult films call for critical thinking. As films, cults or not, are visual works, we can first think critically about cult classics in terms of aesthetics. How are they set about differently from blockbuster or mainstream films? And Bianca will take us through the camp factor
00:11:35
Speaker
that sets horror independent films and many cult classics apart from other genres. So I think Bianca and I would argue and agree that aesthetics help to define what we are talking about today and help put these films into their own box. However, there is some debate about the aesthetics of it all because truly anything can be a cult film from Mamma Mia to Tremors, what have you, whatever you like.
00:12:01
Speaker
Tremors. Tremors is such a good one. I could totally watch that this week. Freakin' love tremors. Oh, that's a good one. Reba? Her most iconic role? Reba. Ah. Ah, mr. Weber. She fucking shot that thing in the face.
00:12:31
Speaker
So a scholar I found, Michael J. Coven, challenges the aesthetics of cult films, saying, to be a cult film, the film must have a particular kind of audience who display a particular kind of behavior.
00:12:44
Speaker
behavior which is often ritualistic. The Rocky Horror Picture Show is an archetypal example of a film which, regardless of any aesthetic or formal features, it may display, develop, and develop solely over time, a dedicated audience following, who would go to tremendous lengths to attend a screening of their worship film. Whole series of rituals and culture behaviors developed around that film which were passed on amongst its most dedicated followers.
00:13:13
Speaker
cultural worship, if you will, which was passed on informally and through a variety of vernacular conduits, completely outside of a dominant or official culture. In many respects, cult films are those films which developed alternative, if not directly oppositional, experiences of the group context in which the film is screened. So part of the reason he disagrees that cult films share a particular aesthetic is also because cult films
00:13:41
Speaker
mostly today are incorrectly labeled. Sometimes films are claimed by critics as a cult classic before it is even released to the public through marketing tactics. But it is hard to predict what the following of a film or TV show will look like or how it will take shape by the people, which is truly the action that makes a film a cult classic. However, the other factor that also lends itself well to camp
00:14:09
Speaker
and cult classic films is defamiliarization, which is the artistic technique of presenting to audiences common things in an unfamiliar or strange way so they could gain new perspectives and see the world differently.
00:14:24
Speaker
In cult films, topics heavily address are the body, gender, society, the family, and the human identity. The defamiliarization is what lends itself to this interesting social function, and we connect these concepts to such a strong following.
00:14:41
Speaker
The evolving history of cult films is also why there is an important social factor because these weren't topics that could or were being addressed in the mainstream. They were too taboo. The term cult film itself was first used in the 1970s to describe the culture that surrounded underground films and midnight movies.
00:15:02
Speaker
though Colt was in common use in film analysis for decades prior to that. The term midnight movie is rooted in the practice that emerged in the 1950s of local television stations around the United States airing low-budget genre films as late night programming, often with a host delivering ironic asides.
00:15:23
Speaker
The screening of non-mainstream pictures at midnight was aimed at building a cult film audience, encouraging repeat viewing and social interactions in what was originally a counterculture setting.
00:15:36
Speaker
The Midnight Movie became a more popular camp experience, in effect bringing it closer to the television form that shares its name. The term Midnight Movie is now often used in two different, though related ways, as synonyms of B-movie or low-budget movies, reflecting the relative cheapness, characteristics of late-night movies, both theatrically and on TV, and as a synonym for cult films.
00:16:03
Speaker
With the evolution of how we consume this virtual media, we also have to take into consideration the public setting versus the private setting in which alters the cult experience. Taking these midnight movies into consideration, the fact now that we can watch a film or TV show, mostly anytime we want, changes how people interact with one another in their cult.
00:16:25
Speaker
Because part of the reason I think why people band together in these fandoms or a fandom-like way was to be able to worship and analyze and connect with other people about less accessible or underground content. Connecting with people in your cult takes shape differently these days. Maybe you're on Reddit or you're on Discord talking with people.
00:16:46
Speaker
But even with the digital conversation that doesn't really change what the main social factor of what a cult classic is and how it's been defined historically, which is driven by a public cultural display. We still need to focus on these real life interactions taking place.
00:17:05
Speaker
interactive or performative film screenings, film festivals, watch parties, other social events. And this is why referring back to Michael Coven, we need to ask questions like, for whom is this a cult film? How are the cultish behaviors publicly expressed? And why this now and for these people?
00:17:27
Speaker
So the why now factor kind of got me thinking about squid games.
Timing and Cult Classics
00:17:32
Speaker
I think that is a very relevant TV show that's been on all of our minds. So even though it's mainstream now, and one of Netflix's most profitable shows, the director Huang Dong-hyuk
00:17:43
Speaker
said that this is a kind of sad story almost regarding the direction in which society is moving towards because he created the premise of this series about 10 years ago. And only until now did production companies think people would connect with it or watch it. So instead of it being this post humanist experience, it's this hyper fixation or critique on current culture.
00:18:08
Speaker
So timing does matter. The timing of these cult classic films and when they did come out does matter, but it also just changed the meaning and the presence of the work in its inception and after.
00:18:21
Speaker
So squid games is super mainstream but social followings are taking place in real life and through social media and in real life social happenings are also being produced by the production companies too for marketing purposes which I think is fascinating that I think now more than ever
00:18:39
Speaker
We have to question what is a cult film because these production companies are aware of it and they create those social happenings for us too in these super mainstream ways in public forums. So time is what will reveal to us what is truly a cult classic and what is not. That's wildly fascinating as we like to say concept. This idea of a curated
00:19:05
Speaker
cult following. I think that would be something really interesting to look further into. And maybe we could next month do a squid games episode if we learn a little bit more about the show or more people have time to watch it. I have not started it yet. So I'm looking forward to doing that. But I finished it in two days. It was very good. And I have a lot of thoughts. Then we should do it. Maybe we should do it for November. Yeah, it's it's fantastic. It's so interesting. I'm definitely excited to watch.
00:19:34
Speaker
All of the people in my life have already finished it and I'm like watching Drag Race All Stars. That's literally all I'm doing. It's a bit different, you know. It's a game in different ways. One is more positive than the other.
00:19:52
Speaker
So after that recap of cult, obviously you mentioned Rocky Horror, but what other Halloween films do you think have that cult following and why does this take shape specifically for this holiday season?
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah, so Halloween lends itself well to the social aspects of cult classics, the dressing up of it all, the fandom of it all, but also horror is used to discuss social and body politics and generally horror is a genre that is also done on a lower budget. And that low budget production quality is also seen as more artistic and is celebrated amongst horror lovers. And I think that also just has to do a lot with
00:20:35
Speaker
that cult classic like production nostalgia that we'll get into here in a sec. Also the campiness and the ridiculousness is also I think something that is celebrated and because horror can be linked to a season we keep coming back to these works of films at least once a year because the holiday does give us that reason to kind of like keep it going and keep it alive.
00:21:01
Speaker
So a couple different movies that I did research about was Plan 9 from Outer Space, and this was done in 1957. And the film's storyline concerns extraterrestrials who seek to stop humanity from creating a doomsday weapon that could destroy the universe.
00:21:20
Speaker
this movie was a turning point into really helping to define cult classics also like in terms of aesthetic because it was one of those things that was so bad it was so good and it morphed into this cultural icon. Also at this point the movie's following was defined by the community that wanted to celebrate its schlock
00:21:45
Speaker
which is a Yiddish word meaning cheap or inferior goods or material, basically trash. So this movie was fucking trash and people were living for it. And so plan nine is a testament to really making something out of nothing. And I kept seeing that quote pop up in multiple different places. And also the director's name I think is Wood something. And
00:22:11
Speaker
from other prior films or if he had like stock images or film of something he would also just throw it into this movie. So it was almost this like like just random like collage moment of film and images that I think he kind of spiced together. I've not seen this movie either.
00:22:33
Speaker
I think regarding the film storyline, which concerns that extraterrestrial people that, um, or beings, it's interesting to see something progress like Rocky Horror, where that's what I think of as these crazy extraterrestrial, you know, like sex aliens and, um, like kind of comparing those two cult classics, like how it started versus how's it going type situation.
00:23:01
Speaker
There's also a film, Alice Sweet Alice, which has Brooke Shields in it, I believe, which gained a cult following a long time, like years after its release, kind of like Jennifer's Body, and is considered a contemporary classic of a slasher sub-genre in critical circles. It has also been the focus of a study in horror, particularly regarding its depiction of Roman Catholicism, child emotional neglect,
00:23:28
Speaker
and the disintegration of American nuclear families. And in regards to just some of the images that I looked up about this movie, also another one I haven't seen, the villain in it wears this yellow raincoat and a very campy creepy like mask. And it has some of those film qualities, this kind of more low budget aspect that we've talked about as well. So those two films
00:23:58
Speaker
some kind of classics examples that I've found that meet these historical descriptions. Yeah, I have to check that out. I want to check out the plan 9. That sounds cool. I want to look it up. So on that note, let's think a little bit about that edition of camp. As we talked about last week, there are elements of the holiday that include laughter alongside its scares.
00:24:26
Speaker
can't be Halloween classics are often good for a laugh, even if there is some tension, this like sense of the uncanny, creepy elements and then even some scary scenes that make us look away and close our eyes and hide under the blanket like I did watching Jennifer's body. So, you know, at least for the people like
00:24:45
Speaker
myself and Gianna, the true scaredy cats can find something scary, even in something that's, you know, campy. Some articles cite that camp classics include Sleepwalkers, Teen Witch, Scream, Evil Dead, Definitely Throw on Adam's Family, Shaun of the Dead, Tucker and Dale versus Evil, and then of course, Young Frankenstein. I love Young Frankenstein, I cannot wait to watch that.
00:25:11
Speaker
And then, as Gianna and I mentioned, the famed Rocky Horror. So what exactly makes these movies campy though? Because I think when I was looking up like just generally campy Halloween movies or campy horror movies, it's like everything is like looped into this concept of camp.
00:25:35
Speaker
So if you paid attention in the spring of 2019, Camp received quite a wide resurgence in common colloquialism, but Met Gala sparked this very large conversation in the mainstream public about what Camp is.
00:25:48
Speaker
For a quick recap, let's go back in time and think about this term's definition. In 1964, Susan Sontag defined camp as an aesthetic, quote, sensibility, that is plain to see, but hard for most of us to explain. An international over the topness, a slightly or extremely off quality, bad taste as a vehicle for good art. Notes on camp her 58 point listicle, quote,
00:26:17
Speaker
builds upon that inherent sense of something being too much and also fences it in. Camp is artificial, passionate, serious. Camp is Art Nouveau objects, Greta Garbo, Warner Brothers musicals, and Mae West. It is not premeditated except when it is extremely premeditated. A New York Times article reads that, quote, her list of camp do's and don'ts has grown since it was first published.
00:26:45
Speaker
Some, including the filmmaker Bruce LaBruce, have updated and expanded it to include references as categorically specific things like Twilight, which is a very bad street camp, and then Sarah Palin, who's part of the conservative camp. However, still, Sontag's article list remains the top-sided amongst any attempt to define this very broad concept, kind of like kitsch.
00:27:13
Speaker
This Times article also gives a long list of examples that can tie things to camp, like is it or is it not camp? And some of these items that were listed in relation to horror were Villanelle, the assassin featured in Killing Eve. Ooh, I love Villanelle.
00:27:33
Speaker
And then of course the TV show Riverdale, which is like very spooky. It kind of has this retro glam aesthetic. And one writer from the Washington Post actually talked in her article about how last October, which was AKA October 2020, there were so many real life horrors that were kind of surpassing things we might usually turn to on screen or in light of the
00:28:03
Speaker
Halloween horror season, like our real life in October of 2020 was extremely traumatic, that there was this kind of search for funny or campy Halloween movies during that time. So like last year, they were in that article, they were talking about Hubie Halloween, which I don't know if I would consider campy, but there was this like, massive search for a kind of like, lift of the usual Halloween horror. In Siobhan Chapman's article, quote,
00:28:33
Speaker
The camp and cult of the Rocky Horror Picture Show is a great article, very fitting. She writes that, quote, even some seasoned viewers have trouble articulating exactly what occurs in this film. First, because it is intentionally over the top and humorously complicated. And second, because the atmosphere surrounding the movie showings is more important than the movie itself.
00:28:59
Speaker
So Rocky Horror was loosely based on horror B movies of the time and earlier like Gianna was talking about and the creator Richard O'Brien
00:29:10
Speaker
is a lever of intentionally over the top, like corny, not very coherent kind of subject matter. And that may seem obvious to people who love and watch Rocky Horror all the time, but if you're a first time watcher, maybe like Theban is, you're gonna be like, what is happening here? So the Rocky Horror Show first premiered as a play in 1973.
00:29:35
Speaker
And as Gianna was saying, it was originally underground, but quickly gained popularity because of a few important historical factors. So in July of 1967, less than 10 years before the play's initiation, England and Wales decriminalized homosexuality. And then about a year later, the Theaters Act abolished censorship and then changed
00:30:03
Speaker
UK theater because of that censorship law. There's a book by Dave Thompson, the Rocky Horror Picture Show FAQ, everything left to know about the campy cult classic. And the author goes in depth about these historical events and then details a lot of specifics about the history of this film and the play.
00:30:24
Speaker
In the book, Thompson explains that changing censorship laws was a huge deal because basically if a playwright wanted to talk about anything taboo, like aka anything queer related at that time, then they could hint at it. And then there were like little traits of different characters in the hope that an audience would understand that this was like something queer.
00:30:48
Speaker
The author says that this is why British humor is traditionally very tongue in cheek because it initially had to be. And so relaxing those censorship laws allowed creators to take more liberties than they had before. So then when we get Rocky Horror, it is this untamed, unleashed version of all of these things that used to have to be censored. So when O'Brien produced the Rocky Horror Show as a movie in the US, the subject matter obviously was very outlandish.
00:31:18
Speaker
compared to anything that came out at the time. And then most of the audiences who were going to see it therefore were not receptive to it at all. Ticket sales were very low when it played. There's a critic Robert Ebert who notes, quote, when the film was first released in 1975, it was ignored by pretty much everyone, including future fanatics, who would eventually count the hundreds of times they'd seen it.
00:31:44
Speaker
part of the reason not the musical attracted so much attention was because queer people were finally represented as a main character of a production that in, you know, Dr. Frank converter is so clear about who he is. I mean, he when you first meet him, he sings a song about exactly who he is. So that openness led to this
00:32:06
Speaker
group of dedicated fans. And that is the main factor in what made Rocky Horror so culty. And that cult tradition also began with callouts and shadow casts. And then after the picture was released as a midnight showing, people began, you know, responding to the lines in the movies with their own, you know, kind of insults and it became interactive. They, you know, had pop culture references, they made jokes. So
00:32:32
Speaker
this fan base got built up and then they began to perform along with the characters and led like many of the different kind of interactive qualities that we now can go see today. So I want to think about that line to that I quoted back in the beginning of this, even some seasoned viewers have trouble articulating exactly what occurs in this film. First, because it is intentionally over the top and humorously complicated. And then the second
00:32:59
Speaker
because the atmosphere surrounding the movie's showings is more important than the movie itself. And so Jen, I wanna ask, has this led to the campiness of Halloween movies in tandem with Halloween traditions? I mean, there's that freedom when you go see Rocky Horror in a play or a film screening today, where you have that freedom to dress up, you have that freedom to play into the camp yourself. And I love that line about the,
00:33:27
Speaker
the atmosphere surrounding the showings is more important and has led to both cult and camp of these different productions.
Rocky Horror Picture Show: A Cult Phenomenon
00:33:36
Speaker
Yes, I 100% agree and this conversation is just getting so juicy. I'm obsessed with it. What is so interesting about the quote that you picked out and you just quoted
00:33:47
Speaker
the atmosphere surrounding the movie showing is more important than the movie itself is exactly what Michael Coven, my scholar, is addressing as well so they would agree. But what's funny is I think there's a maybe a missing aspect to his analysis and it's that when we have reached a certain point though
00:34:10
Speaker
That is where the campiness is. And that is what has affected the genre of horror so much. And that is what has affected the cult movies so much. So maybe that's an argument, I think, when first
00:34:25
Speaker
you know, cult movies arrived and we have this foundation that plant nine is setting and all these other different movies about, you know, using maybe like accidental camp. You know what I mean? Like unintentional camp and then it turning into this whole other thing. So I wholeheartedly agree. And, you know, some of the, basically where I got this scholar, Covance analysis for analysis from was from,
00:34:53
Speaker
a set of given questions that he was asked to analyze. So it's interesting because obviously this is an evolving topic and at what point in time is this true? And I agree with, but how is that affecting the now? Right. So I think now is a good time for a little break. And when we come back, we'll be talking all about Jennifer's body.
00:35:45
Speaker
All right, everybody. Welcome back.
Jennifer's Body: Plot and Characters
00:35:48
Speaker
We are going to get into a Jennifer's body.
00:35:51
Speaker
recap and you know not everybody may need a recap because I'm sure most of you are fully up to date and like very coherent about the significance of Jennifer's Body but Gianna and I have been told to watch this movie for years by our friends and I think they'd be proud of us to know that it finally happened. So yeah I watched Jennifer's Body over the weekend and yes I did have to look away at certain parts because I was too scared of
00:36:20
Speaker
the very attractive Megan Fox ripping people apart. Maybe because she's too beautiful, I can't look at her. So I'll give a quick description of the film for any of those people left in the world who haven't seen it. We might be the last two. We truly might be. Jennifer is a beautiful it girl played by Megan Fox and in the movie she gets possessed by a demon.
00:36:46
Speaker
Now her best friend is Needy, played by Amanda Seyfried. And originally in the course, you know, the movie starts and they're very close friends. And then they fall apart, obviously, as Jennifer becomes a demon and starts killing people. So Jennifer becomes this killing monster, but mostly for guys, even including Needy's boyfriend Chip. So when Needy confides in Chip that Jennifer is evil,
00:37:15
Speaker
She has to clarify, no, she's actually evil, not high school evil. Although Jennifer can be very scary and intimidating, she often crosses the line into this over the top kind of camp territory. So when needy confronts Jennifer, telling her that she's killing people,
00:37:34
Speaker
Jennifer actually I saw this in the trailer Jennifer says she's not killing people she's killing boys but for some reason I don't remember that playing that line playing out in the bedroom scene whenever they're talking but it is in the trailer I don't know that was weird maybe that's just me and I miss something but
00:37:56
Speaker
So that's that's basically the plot of the movie. Jennifer kills three boys over the course of the movie. After she's she's possessed by this demon, there's a band that's like very like the band was so good. Honestly, like this like
00:38:13
Speaker
ballad boy kind of panic at the disco my chemical romance type band that actually is the reason that Jennifer ends up getting possessed which we'll talk about in the context of the virgin aspect and things like that. So Gianna do you want to tell me your initial thoughts I guess after finally watching it after all this time? Yeah well it was really interesting to me that Megan Fox Jennifer the whole thing started because she gets
00:38:43
Speaker
fucking sacrifice and she gets murdered, she gets stabbed to death. And then this band, like super douchebag vibes of a band. I think low shoulder is what they're called, right? I don't know, they're all like moon tattoos, like a bunch of fucking losers. But they are kind of pinpointing these girls in the crowd and they start
00:39:12
Speaker
talking about Jennifer and how, oh yeah, I know small town girls like her, like she's always talking a big game, but she's actually a virgin, so we're gonna go after her. And then the whole freaking bar just engulfs in flames, probably due to some kind of magic or whatever that the band
00:39:30
Speaker
stirred up it just the whole bar is up in flames like everybody catches on fire and then it almost feels like Megan Fox is in some kind of trance or I don't know or maybe she just like really wants to hook up with this band guy but no it's it's almost like she's been I was equating it to kind of like she's been you know put in this trance by this like
00:39:55
Speaker
devil kind of dark magic that the band has because yeah they've made like a deal with the devil is basically my understanding or you know but it's interesting that that's kind of like a euphemism I thought for being roofied like girls being roofied
00:40:09
Speaker
Well, yeah. Because he gives her that drink and so it's just, I don't know, that's just a wild place that maybe women would only recognize, you know what I mean? Yeah, but it's super weird because Amanda Seyfried is like, we got to get out of here. And she's like, no, I want to go in your super cool van. It's like, what's happening? But yeah, and the way that things kind of slow down and she's
00:40:34
Speaker
Her facial expression has this insinuation that she's very hooked on him. Something is up. And she feels very enticed to go in this van. And then when she gets in the van, later on, she's telling Amanda Seyfried what actually happened. And she tells a story about how they sacrificed her because they thought she was a virgin. And she told them she was a virgin thinking that would help her get out of the situation.
00:41:02
Speaker
And because she wasn't actually a virgin, this little ritual to sacrifice a virgin didn't work. And instead, a demon took over Jennifer's body.
00:41:14
Speaker
When I was looking up things about the movie, or I think why, I guess you could say it flopped in the beginning, had to do so much with the advertisement about it, which I thought was super interesting.
Marketing and Misinterpretation of Jennifer's Body
00:41:27
Speaker
And having that only been my prior experience, and I remember when this movie came out and didn't see it, it felt like, okay, this is Megan Fox, like post-Transformers, we're all gonna get a chance to see Megan Fox naked. That was the hook.
00:41:45
Speaker
And that's what these articles also kind of suggest that it was interesting because we had all this fandom about like monsters that we were into like the Twilight series and how this was possibly trying to be equated to like a
00:42:03
Speaker
monster like sexual like fetish but for guys but more so just like a chance to see Megan Fox naked and the marketing and I was looking at past trailers really like just really alluded to you know the sexualization of Megan Fox and like not much else about the plot and so then of course getting eaten by a monster really isn't
00:42:28
Speaker
a guy's super sexual fantasy, or I guess maybe if you want to get eaten by Megan Fox, like you do you. But these like associations about like the movie and how it was being marketed was kind of not like false to what the movie was, but there was a lot more to it, obviously. And so the marketing of it all was also, I don't know, a cause of why it flopped, which I thought was interesting.
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah, so I read that the director actually clashed with I think it's Fox who was the main producer of the of the film and actually clashed with marketing and production at the company, because the producer obviously that was the director of Juno, they had had an Academy Awards, stuff like that. And even on the marketing on the poster, you see, you know,
00:43:26
Speaker
director, Academy Award winner of Juno is now directing this like weird Megan Fox thing, but it's so overshadowed by this sex sexualization of the main character. And then I'll read a quote from an article. The film has appeared on best of lists of horror films directed by women as well as LGBTQ horror movies.
00:43:50
Speaker
The film deserves to be on the list because it is an excellent B-movie that mixes humor and horror in a way that is funny yet provocative. However, the world of 2009 was not ready for a horror comedy that was made by a woman for teen girls, especially one that included queer themes as well as feminist messages.
Feminist Themes in Jennifer's Body
00:44:11
Speaker
that suits the now me too era better than it does an era when top films were directed by men and most films made for women were restricted to the romance genre. So this is something that we've also talked about in last year's Halloween episodes where we talked about monster theory and we talked about monstrous sexuality and the vagina dantata and I think that
00:44:33
Speaker
Even though Megan Fox is kind of ripping people apart with her teeth, her mouth kind of expands. She's obviously possessed by a certain devil or evil spirit of sorts. She's not…
00:44:49
Speaker
she doesn't have a vagina dentata like we talked about last year, but she has that idea of like sexual monstrous teeth. And they kind of see that when her when her mouth is kind of stretched out in different ways, but she also lures men in with that promise of kind of sexuality. So I think that that's another interesting aspect about kind of like reclaiming your body in a in a in a strange way, but yet it definitely is on par with those feminist messages about monstrosity. Mm hmm.
00:45:19
Speaker
there was a like a joking moment at the end of the movie where Needy is you know trying to kill Jennifer and I think they're in the pool saying and she had just like sucked the life out of her boyfriend and then she was saying something like I go both ways Jennifer was saying oh I will kill you too it's just that I choose not to and perhaps like it's easier for me to kill people
00:45:49
Speaker
like in this way because I can allure boys so clearly like she could go up to anybody and just kind of kill them in whatever way she likes but seducing people and seducing boys that is the best way for her to
00:46:06
Speaker
be alone with them and to like eat their bodies. Well, I don't know. I might disagree because in that line, Needy says, you know, I thought you only killed boys and she goes, I go both ways, which is obviously evocative of kind of the spy identity. Um, but I think that, I don't know, in comparison to the kind of like make out scene that Amanda Seyford and Megan Fox have in that bedroom. Like I, I think that there is a chance that Megan could have killed Needy.
00:46:32
Speaker
if she if needy or chip hadn't have you know stabbed Jennifer and she you know like flew out the window oh yeah no for sure I mean like she can seduce people but it's like the seduction like that is how she's choosing to kill people is like through her sexuality like yeah she definitely could have killed needy and yeah she did make the comment she goes both ways but
00:46:55
Speaker
But I think there's also, speaking of that, maybe we'll transition into that idea of like, this is a movie for teen girls. It is about the high school experience. And then, of course, there's that iconic line where Needy says, no, Jennifer's evil. She's not just high school evil. And I think that even as I was watching it, I mean, it really is...
00:47:15
Speaker
evocative of, I don't know, I think it's one of the truest kind of depictions of a high school, female friendship type of relationship that I've really seen in a movie, especially from 2009. I mean, I think that, of course, you know, we have mean girls, we have this idea of the it girl and that struggling friendship, kind of the loser girl and stuff like that. But Needy and Jennifer are friends who appear to like be on different levels. I mean,
00:47:44
Speaker
Obviously, Amanda Siker is stunning, but in this movie, they make her out to be kind of like the lesser beauty of this friendship dynamic. And I think that every girl can so relate to that. Every person can relate to that. But I think for a 2009 movie, actually depicting that type of friendship, that betrayal, I mean, spoiler alert. I know anyone out there. But with Jennifer killing,
00:48:12
Speaker
needy's boyfriend. I mean, that's such kind of like a, a backstabby type of move that you might see in a different movie like Mean Girls or something like that. But you're seeing it in this like, exaggerated, very campy context, you know, right. And, and they do talk about that she could have gone for
00:48:30
Speaker
anybody else. She could have seduced any other person, but no, she had to seduce needy's boyfriend. And it's crazy that they're having that conversation because needy is confronted with an actual like devil spirit. She's like, you stole my boyfriend. Literally Megan Fox is an evil spirit about to kill her. And she's like, you could have had anyone else. But then the same thing is said, needy Amanda Seyfried knows that Jennifer is
00:49:00
Speaker
Evil while they're making out but it's it's this interesting because it still is it is Jennifer and it's not Jennifer I mean she still has her personality traits like she's still her person She's got just got this new fun trait where you know, she just eats people on the DL
00:49:16
Speaker
Right. Maybe the last big thing that I want to talk about is this idea of the film being very sex positive and that aspect of virginity that leads to the backlash of obviously in the end, needy killing the band members who, who really are responsible for for the death of Jennifer. That was kind of a, I mean, I guess I saw it coming, like I predicted that that's what happened to Jennifer is that, you know, she
00:49:45
Speaker
She really wasn't a virgin and this is how she became possessed. But I don't know, Gianna, what do you think about that plot point of the movie? Because really the whole plot, I guess, you could say is centered around the fact that Megan Fox has to lie about her virginity, what she thinks is in order to save her life.
00:50:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's interesting that, in a way, because she's not a virgin, that's how she's able to come back and have this new power. I mean, it's definitely an evil power, and she didn't really have any choice in the matter of all of it. But that aspect is interesting. It's not that, oh, she's not a virgin, and the spell didn't work. It's that it bounced back in this other way. So I did find that interesting.
00:50:37
Speaker
Also, I mean they also Show, you know needy sexual experience with her boyfriend and that was also the moment like she was supposed to lose her virginity and how when she was having sex with her boyfriend she had this like interconnection moment with Jennifer and she could
00:50:55
Speaker
I don't know, prophesize or see all these other things that Jennifer was doing, like through her sexual encounter and being linked to Jennifer in that way. So that was kind of interesting. So yeah, again, and I know that we just talked about this, but it's interesting that it became very, this movie was very sex positive, or at least it just talked about sex and like,
00:51:22
Speaker
a non-oppressive way when in fact the movie was marketed to be just a sexualization of Megan Fox. Like that's how it was marketed. That's how it felt it was supposed to exist. Yeah, that's actually a really interesting point. Yeah. And also one other thing that I just
00:51:42
Speaker
Wanted to add before I forget is um, I don't know because of this. There's also this idea that Megan fire Jennifer can't like when when Amanda Seyfried ends up actually stabbing Jennifer there's no hope for Jennifer's body to live on it is it is that the
00:52:07
Speaker
the evil spirit within her has left. She's killed the demon, but she's also killed Jennifer's body. So I think that this idea that needy takes on the responsibility of repercussions for the band members is also interesting because although it was Jennifer's body possessed by the spirit that killed Chip,
00:52:33
Speaker
I mean, there was some sense of Jennifer that was still there. That's still that friendship dynamic. But yet, Needy still takes on this kind of quest for justice, for Jennifer, in a way, with killing the band members at the end. Right.
Friendship and Resolution in Jennifer's Body
00:52:52
Speaker
Because in reality, Jennifer died a long time ago. She died at that vortex-y looking waterfall thing. Right.
00:53:04
Speaker
What did they call that? Like, Hell's Kettle? Because that's a town name? Devil Kettle was the town, and then it was named after the waterfall because of the water fountain. Right, right, right. I will say, in the beginning, like before Theban fell asleep,
00:53:21
Speaker
he was like, just put a tracking device down there. Is it real? It's not that hard. Why are you throwing balls down the hole? Just throw a tracking device down there. God. And I was like, wow, you've cracked it. This is the plot hole. And we're about five seconds into it. No, even when I saw that, they were throwing those. It looked like those squishy foam balls. I was like, that's so bad for the environment. I was like, what the hell are you doing? You're polluting. What the fuck? But then she found them at the end of the movie.
00:53:52
Speaker
But speaking of the end when she does go on this quest for Jennifer who was her friend Like in a really shitty thing happened to her. Yeah, and though she was like kind of a shitty friend and she kills all the band members the photo montage thing at the end I thought was very camp and In it had this like
00:54:16
Speaker
good like nostalgia moment to it with all these like glammed up like rocker dudes in their like Vegas hotel room and then in these like perfectly posed kind of like crime scene.
00:54:29
Speaker
of photos I just thought was really good. Yeah, and the over the topness of the band in general, I mean, all of a sudden, they've skyrocketed to fame, you know, they got they got what they wanted, I guess out of this deal, but you see them like doing coke in the bathroom and all this stuff. It's like, so it's so weird. But you're right in that fact that it is so extremely exaggerated.
00:54:52
Speaker
Yeah, and and like the douchiness of these guys were so Exaggerated. Yeah, what song were they singing when they killed Jennifer like forests through the trees? Is the theme song for the town then? No, but when they were like literally stabbing her they were singing a song it was it wasn't like It wasn't Stacy's mom, but it was something like that but
00:55:16
Speaker
I've got you, Jenny, Jenny, I've got you. And I'm just like, holy shit, like they're just stabbing this person alive, but eight, six, seven, five, three, all nine. So any other thoughts about Jennifer's body before we wrap up this culty campy episode?
00:55:40
Speaker
You know, I'm glad that I liked it. I really am. Like you said, I've had my old roommate, her favorite movie was Jennifer's Body, and I would catch her just like watching it all the time. I never watched it with her. So I am glad that I watched it. And if anybody wants to watch it and they don't have it, it's on IMDB TV right now. Yeah, for free.
00:56:07
Speaker
Well, thanks to all the friends who pushed us into this and told us about Jennifer's body because, you know, it's taught me a lot. And as we'll get into throughout the course of art, yeah, that appreciation for horror, it just grows every time I watch a new movie. So yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, well,
00:56:27
Speaker
Did we do it? We did it. We did it. Don't forget that you can follow us at all the different platforms at artpoptalk. You can email us at artpoptalk at gmail.com. Don't eat to our Buy Me a Coffee account if you like this content and want us to keep it up. And sign up for our newsletter at artpoptalk.com. So with that, we will talk to you on Tuesday. Bye, everyone. Bye.
00:56:56
Speaker
Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci-Vinc. And me, Gianna Martucci-Vinc. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner and photography is by Adrian Turner. And our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.
00:57:27
Speaker
you