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141. Finding the Collateral Beauty-with Alexandra Wayman
92 Plays2 years ago
Alexandra Wyman is an advocate and public speaker for resources in the aftermath of suicide. She is the Author of The Suicide Club: What to Do When Someone You Love Chooses Death, Alexandra explores
her journey of mourning and healing after losing her husband. She makes sense of her grief through three phases—Shock and Awe, Now What?, and Finding the Collateral Beauty—to offer a road back to peace and joy for anyone who has lost someone close to them to suicide.
After she lost her husband to suicide in August of 2020, Alexandra found a need to change the rhetoric around suicide. She has spoken at the Colorado School Counselor Association’s annual
conference; the Orthodox Christian Association of Medicine, Psychology, and Religion (OCAMPR) annual conference; and Bridging the Divide Suicide Prevention and Awareness
Summit 2022. She has also been a guest on the YouDoWoo podcast. Alexandra practices occupational therapy and lives in Colorado with her son.
Contact Alexandra Wyman: https://www.forwardtojoy.com/
Buy her book: https://www.forwardtojoy.com/the-suicide-club
Contact Kendra Rinaldi
https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Finding Motivation in Grief
00:00:01
Speaker
I think it's important when going through something like this to find one small thing that you can letch onto so that it does get you out of bed no matter what time, even to go to the bathroom or take a shower or brush your teeth. That gives you that pull to actually say I can get out of bed today and that's all I can do and that's fine. My son was that for me because I knew immediately
00:00:26
Speaker
I knew that his dad's death would impact him, but I didn't want it to dictate his life nor mine. And so understanding that it would impact things for him, I knew that it wouldn't be fair to allow my grieving journey
00:00:47
Speaker
to hold my son back in being able to embrace and really learn and grow in his life and to become who he is meant to be.
Introduction to 'Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between'
00:01:01
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:01:08
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:24
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host.
Experiences of Alexandra Mwaiman
00:01:39
Speaker
Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:01:45
Speaker
Today, I'm chatting with Alexandra Mwaiman. She is the author of The Suicide Club, What to Do When Someone You Love Chooses Death. She is an advocate and public speaker for resources in the aftermath of suicide and currently lives in Colorado with her son. So welcome, Alexandra.
00:02:07
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here. I am happy that you are and happy to be having this conversation of a very sensitive topic at the same time, one that we need to take the veil off even more to talk about, you know, death by suicide.
00:02:28
Speaker
But even more importantly, I really love that your book is really focused more on the grieving part and the different phases that you kind of thought out or experienced yourself that occur when grieving. So we'll be kind of navigating that not to give too much up to the audience either so that they can buy the book.
00:02:53
Speaker
So we'll just touch on it. So let's chat more about you. So right now you live in Colorado.
Cultural and Personal Background
00:03:00
Speaker
So take us into your childhood. Where did you grow up? Sure, yeah. So I'm originally from California and was born in San Francisco. And I am first generation on my dad's side and second generation on my mom's side. So both my parents are of Russian descent. And so I come from very rich cultural background.
00:03:22
Speaker
religious background and both my parents grew up in California as well and my dad is a still currently a Russian Orthodox priest so we moved around quite a bit and so a lot of my childhood was kind of bridging the gap between being in an immigrant family traveling a lot so never really feeling like we had roots down my dad would say like family and home is where all of us are together and
00:03:52
Speaker
So doing that and then also trying to in a way assimilate. I don't think I really realized this till I was well into my adulthood of how much assimilation I actually had to do in getting used to some of the American culture because at home and my parents don't have accents or anything when they speak Russian, you know, they
00:04:12
Speaker
They are bilingual, but so it was very interesting to kind of be an American society, American culture, and then also have this rich, different culture at home as well. And so
Life Events and Tragedy
00:04:26
Speaker
in the 90s, it's weird to say that, but in the 90s, my parents and I
00:04:33
Speaker
moved to Colorado. I have two older siblings and they were in college. And so I went to high school in Colorado and then moved away, traveled quite a bit. I've always had a little bit of a travel bug and then moved back here to Colorado and to be closer to family to go to grad school. And that's where I ended up meeting Shawn, my late husband, and just kind of ended up in this whirlwind romance and ended up working in pediatric occupational therapy.
00:05:02
Speaker
And then about just before our second wedding anniversary is when Sean ended up dying. So there's kind of a lot in a small amount of time there, I know. So lots of moving around in that cultural background.
00:05:18
Speaker
that led to kind of life erupting unexpectedly.
Religious and Spiritual Journey
00:05:24
Speaker
So much that I was trying to take notes here as you're talking because it was like, okay, because then of course I could forget to ask you something that might have come up as you were talking.
00:05:34
Speaker
So the part of your cultural background now that I know, as I was asking you before we started to record, I'm like, how do I pronounce your name? So I guess I could have said like more like Alexandra or something. How would it be said in Russian? How would Alexandra be said, like stronger, right? Like in Spanish? Yes. Alexandra. Yeah. Alexandra. Alexandra. Yeah. So I could have said it that way then.
00:06:02
Speaker
So, I want to ask you totally just so that I don't forget, how was it then for you in the assimilation after assimilating grief and death when Sean passed with your background being very religious and did your experience as an adult match
00:06:28
Speaker
the belief systems that you were brought up in believing about what happens after we die, or how is it that we grieve? Yeah, that is such a good question. And I actually love this question, because I think having
00:06:44
Speaker
the religious background created a baseline for me. And I do see a difference between religion and faith because I find the religion is going to be the construct that we have as being humans here, but the faith to me kind of supersedes that. And so having this baseline and understanding did help because I have come across people who didn't have that and their grief
00:07:10
Speaker
and their reaction and what they hold on to as far as when our favorite people die is very different and can almost be a little bit bigger in the sense of holding on to those tangible things.
Community and Family Support
00:07:25
Speaker
You know, if I don't know where Sean is, then I need to hold on to whatever I have that was his here on earth. My spirituality was definitely challenged though.
00:07:35
Speaker
I did have a lot of anger towards God and life. Why me? Why did this happen? But I do think my spirituality grew in the sense of really diving in and trying to understand what does happen after we die. What feels right for me in my perspective? What do I want to teach my son? Where do I feel that Shawn is? And also that my relationship shifts
00:08:00
Speaker
from him being physically here to how can we have a relationship with him and his spirit and his soul while he's not physically here present in front of me. So a lot of that growth had to happen after, but I was grateful that I had this kind of a baseline of like, I do believe that something that our people go somewhere. It's more of like where and what does that look like and what does that experience and what does that mean for me now still being here trying to figure out and navigate this.
00:08:30
Speaker
Thank you so much for explaining how it was for you because I do think that in some cases, for myself as well, that religious or at least spiritual belief about what happened did help my grief journey. But I do see that in some instances, some people are torn in between what they grew up believing about what happens
00:08:58
Speaker
and then what they currently believe. So like you said, you kind of go in that moment of like, wait a minute, wait, wait, do I really? No, I do think that there's something more now. You know, maybe you grew up believing there wasn't and all of a sudden, you know, like, no, I do believe there's something. I felt his presence or I can feel that connection still. So thank you for sharing your perspective and your own experience on it.
Evolving Family Dynamics
00:09:22
Speaker
Now, in that aspect of continuing that relationship, and we'll dive into the phases,
00:09:26
Speaker
But since you touched on it, can you share how you and your child still continue that relationship with Sean now? Because your son is young. He's three. How do you continue that relationship and that conversation with him? Absolutely. And I know the conversation is going to shift as my son gets older.
00:09:53
Speaker
Um, so for right now, and I have to say, I appreciate that families, it's more common now that families come in different shapes and sizes, uh, than when I was his age and younger, just that nuclear looking family isn't the nuclear family looks different. That's what I'll say. Um, so I, I appreciate that because now this is his normal.
00:10:14
Speaker
Um, but we do, we talk about his dad. He's very much like his dad. He, um, anyone who knew Sean and then sees my son immediately, they go, Oh my gosh, there's Sean's eyes. Like my son has his eyes. So there are those constant reminders. And I know for some people they find those reminders painful. I don't, I love it. I love to see how he thinks he thinks like his dad. So the way I've approached it is, um, we have pictures up.
00:10:43
Speaker
That took a while for me to be able to put pictures back up, but I tell him that his dad lives in his heart and he's always with him. And I do tell him that his dad is in heaven. And I think for me, I
00:10:57
Speaker
I'm constantly trying to navigate and figure out what the relationship looks like with Sean, but I do feel his presence and there are times where I feel that I've gotten messages that are directly from him, whether that's been in dreams or I joke that like my thinking happens in the shower and then I just hope I hold on to whatever thoughts come because once I step out of the shower they usually disappear.
Normalizing Conversations about Suicide
00:11:21
Speaker
yeah we need those waterproof kind of notepads i think they do have those right because everyone's ideas of like inventions or book ideas or song ideas come in the shower right oh i'm sure i'm sure and they have like waterproof alexa now so i'm sure you can just like
00:11:38
Speaker
Tell Alexa what to what to recall for you. So he's definitely around and I encourage people that I'm around my family and friends to keep Shawn alive and that, you know, his spirit and what how he blessed us in our life doesn't have to end because he's not physically here.
00:11:58
Speaker
And so that's kind of how we try. And to be honest, I know I'm going to have some hard conversations as my son gets older. But my goal is to, while I don't obviously, I am not happy at all that my husband died. But as you said earlier, to take that veil off and kind of normalize that this is a type of death.
Grief Phases and 'Collateral Beauty'
00:12:19
Speaker
and it was a choice and it's not my son's fault, it's not my fault, but to kind of normalize in a way that his dad isn't here but is still present. Does that make sense? Absolutely. You know, I have the title of my podcast being grief, gratitude, and the grain between and a lot of times people kind of twirl with that aspect of the gratitude. I'm not saying you're grateful that XYZ happened. That's not the
00:12:48
Speaker
That's not what I mean by that. It's more that you actually say something, and one of your phases is the collateral beauty, which I was like, oh, that struck with me, like, oh, that is exactly what I mean by that aspect of gratitude, is that you can find little things here or there to be grateful for that actually help you.
00:13:16
Speaker
and propel you to keep moving forward and living in spite of this big hole in your heart, like a doughnut. The doughnut, there's a hole in the middle, but there's still all this yumminess around it.
00:13:32
Speaker
So anyway, so thank you for sharing all of that. Let's talk about how you started to think about these phases or how these phases came about for you. So let's go into shock and awe, which is the first phase, which I liked how you put it like that. And then there's these little sub things within that. So how was it for you experiencing this shock and awe, of course, of this type of
00:14:02
Speaker
Death is one of the ones that probably creates the most shock and awe, of course. But in general and grief, there's the shock and awe stage or phase. Yeah. And I'll say the way that these phases came out for me was that I had like almost a tangible shift that happened where I physically felt something going on within my body, within my brain. And I was like, oh.
00:14:27
Speaker
something's changing here. The shock and awe, yes, there was a lot of shock. And there's no way of predicting how long that's going to last. There's no way of knowing. And your body does that, and your brain does that to protect you. And so anything that's going to be traumatic, that's going to be the response. And to work through that shock, and even looking back now, I'm like, oh, you make decisions. And I do say this, that
00:14:55
Speaker
People say don't make any big decisions in that first year or take some time like you don't always have that time and so you have to make decisions with the best knowledge that you have in the moment. Maybe it would be different if you weren't in the shock but it definitely is there and for me it lasted four months and I've
Coping Mechanisms and Daily Motivation
00:15:14
Speaker
known people where it's lasted shorter than that longer than that but I felt a huge
00:15:19
Speaker
weight. It was kind of weird. A weight lifted off my shoulder but then also almost like a dread that set in because it was that this shock lifted so I had a little bit more clarity but the dread that set in was, oh this really happened and he's not walking in the door. And I remember I was in my living room and I literally stared at my front door and realized you're not coming back.
00:15:41
Speaker
And that's where a lot of the emotions started to flood in a little bit more intensely for me. And I started realizing that I had actually been in shock, which I mean, you know that you're in shock, you just, you know, three months later, you don't necessarily still realize that you are. But that's really where you're just like true survival, you're just getting day by day,
00:16:05
Speaker
I think there's a lot of numbing that goes on. You know, you're really just trying to keep yourself alive and everything together as well as you can during that first phase.
00:16:17
Speaker
And your son was so young, too. He was under two, correct? Yes, he was just over one. He had just turned one. Just turned one. So just in general, motherhood, parenthood with a little one is already a survival mode. So on top of that,
00:16:37
Speaker
you are adding this part of just surviving this news and this new information and all of a sudden this new life that you're having to continue on without Sean next to you. It's just a lot. You still have to get out of bed, right?
00:16:57
Speaker
to help your son out and so forth too. So how did you manage the day by day in those four months as you mentioned in that kind of survival mode?
00:17:12
Speaker
Yeah, initially, I mean, I do say it takes a village and the village changes, but I did have a lot of support and help. And I will say, I think it's important when going through something like this to find one small thing that you can latch onto so that it does get you out of bed no matter what time.
00:17:34
Speaker
even to go to the bathroom or take a shower or brush your teeth that gives you that pull to actually say I can get out of bed today and that's all I can do and that's fine. My son was that for me because I knew immediately
00:17:49
Speaker
I knew that his dad's death would impact him, but I didn't want it to dictate his life nor mine. And so understanding that it would impact things for him, I knew that it wouldn't be fair to allow
00:18:07
Speaker
my grieving journey to hold my son back in being able to embrace and really learn and grow in his life and to become who he is meant to be. And so I did need to pull in a lot of resources through that and
00:18:23
Speaker
There were some days where it was very difficult for me to get out of bed and then that's when I would reach out and say I need help with my son or can someone I had people making meals for me for a very long time and that was very helpful because it just took away the pressure of even having to think afternoons and evenings were very hard for me and still sometimes are.
00:18:45
Speaker
So initially, I would say is just holding on to that one thing. And then I just knew if I hit my capacity, I would just have to stop whatever I was doing. And there was business that had to be taken care of almost immediately. And I just be like, I can't do any more today. Or I would say, can someone help me with this? Which was also hard for me to do because I, you know, I just learned to gotta just do it all. But I can't do it all.
00:19:09
Speaker
Right. Did you, and you mentioned you're the oldest of the three? I'm the youngest. You're the youngest? Okay. I just, I just thought sometimes younger ones kind of learn to kind of do on their own, but sometimes the older ones also end up learning to be very independent. So I wonder if your birth order even dictated how you know, I'm sure there's some elements of that of how you navigate asking for help or not, because depending on that, is that right?
00:19:36
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yes. And I can say it was very hard for my siblings because they, everyone feels helpless at that point and they don't know what to do. And they're looking to, they were looking to me to guide them and I didn't even know. And so that's why I like to encourage people to just reach out, say, I'm bringing a meal. I'm going to take your, which it was hard for me to allow people to watch my son for me.
00:20:01
Speaker
I had a lot of separation anxiety that came up so I had to navigate that as well. But that's why I encourage people to just almost say like this is what I'm going to do for you today versus waiting for the person to tell you because it's very thick. Yeah.
00:20:17
Speaker
It's hard.
Proactive Approach to Grief
00:20:18
Speaker
Yeah. So that part of offering as someone that is accompanying somebody that is grieving, then being very clear as to how it is you can help them, maybe give them two options. Like I've heard things of like, do you want me to bring lasagna or this, you know, or lasagna or spaghetti? And would you like me to deliver it?
00:20:41
Speaker
Tuesday or Friday, like very clear, concise, different things. Would you like me to mow your lawn or so? And it's something I've learned even from doing this podcast, even though I've experienced grief myself is that aspect of clarity, because I still still to this day, I sometimes do let me know if there's anything I could do. I still do that blanket kind of offer. Now I I try to be
00:21:07
Speaker
If you need any resources, any tools, any links, any books, I'm happy to guide you. Any podcast episodes, those are things I know that I have access to right away, too. Oh, yeah. I went through this experience, and I'm still going through it. And I am still one of the most awkward people when it comes to death. And so I usually am like, oh, that's a bummer. No one wants to hear that's a bummer, right?
00:21:34
Speaker
Imagine somebody telling you that after Sean died. That's a bummer. No, that's rock shattering. But even still, that's the part that I've also learned. It's not necessarily what people say. It is also just knowing that they're really trying to help and be there for you. So being able to know that the intent behind those words is really what you're trying to focus on.
00:22:00
Speaker
So you had your family to support, you had a community, which is huge. Now, in that first shock and awe, is that a stage in which you at that point started to look for then community of people that could understand a little more of what you yourself had gone through as well, or was that in the next phase?
00:22:25
Speaker
Well, this is what I like to say. I'm in Aries, so I like to just take stuff on head on. So what I didn't understand was that this grieving and mourning process is almost like a lifetime. And I did initially call it like a lifetime sentence. I won't necessarily call it that anymore. Because I was like, okay, what do I need to do to get through this? Like, I don't want to be hurting the rest of my life. I don't want to be dealing with this. And the truth is,
00:22:54
Speaker
Like, Sean's missing, so there's gonna be times where I'm gonna miss him on Christmas. I'm gonna miss him for my son's birthdays or when he's, you know, hitting milestones. My sister was great. She found a suicide support group right away for me. I immediately, I had already been working with a therapist, so I contacted him immediately. You know, I tried to...
00:23:21
Speaker
reach out and say, I know I can't do this on my own, who can help me be able to get through this? And some, you know, my therapist initially was like, okay, you got it, you got
Judgment and Grieving Styles
00:23:33
Speaker
to take some time to feel the feels like we're not going to bypass this, which was a little frustrating. But I do understand now why, because I did need to feel the feels. So I definitely started looking to that community immediately after and I'm still finding that that community
00:23:51
Speaker
changes and shifts. But initially, I was put in touch with someone right away who had lost her husband to suicide. And she was fantastic. I mean, this is like day one. And she was right by my side. I could text her at any time she was there to help me. There are a couple other women that I'm still friends with who also went through at different times, like we're all at different kind of
00:24:15
Speaker
levels of where we are in our process. And I'm grateful because I can tap into these resources depending on what I have going on.
00:24:28
Speaker
Yeah, community, I really think is so important. It's so important because not only for the support, but in this case for you to find someone else that can relate in some shape or form to what you're going through. And in that relating, let me ask you, was the element of judgment for yourself or judgment of others or feeling judged in your own process, did that come up? Or has it come up in your journey of grief?
00:24:55
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Day zero. There was judgment. There was questions over my marriage. There was questions over my motherhood. Did I know this was coming? Why didn't I stop him? That went on to what kind of greever I am. I think as humans, we look to others to gauge how we should be
00:25:21
Speaker
grieving and I don't really like the shoulds but we use those and it's often a reflection of what we need. I found out I'm a private greever so I usually hold it together and then find some time in the evening to kind of let myself grieve. Other people are more outwardly grievers and so there was judgment over if I was crying enough was I too business business like is the one that came up quite a bit or too stoic
00:25:49
Speaker
And that was even still during some of the shock phase. So there is a lot of judgment and I think it's because one, suicide scares people. Of course it does because there's no predictability to it. I like to say that it doesn't discriminate. There's no
00:26:05
Speaker
There's no way to really know.
Balancing Grief and Responsibilities
00:26:08
Speaker
We like to think that there are some signs. Maybe you look back and go, maybe that was a sign, but two people could have the same upbringing, the same experience, and one dies by suicide and the other one doesn't. That's terrifying because it's such a traumatic and horrific experience. We like to create that space and then also in creating that space, we're reflecting what do we need in order to feel safer.
00:26:31
Speaker
And that's where I think the judgment comes out is, wait a second, you're not crying enough. Did you know something happened to him? Did you know? No, it's just that I'm going to save my tears for later kind of thing. But again, I think it's where people are looking to feel safe that somehow something like this won't happen to them.
00:26:53
Speaker
Like you said, you can do everything on a checklist and still things like this, like what you experienced happen. So let's move on to phase two, the now what. So that now what phase, if I say stage, you know why it is because you even mentioned it at the beginning of the stages, which I agree with you. It's really hard to just label stages of grief. Yours are more blanket.
00:27:22
Speaker
of explanation. So the now what phase that you experience share with us, please. Sure. This is the part where you're out of the shock. So now you're getting more of those intense emotions over your experience and the grief is coming out a little bit stronger. But then
00:27:45
Speaker
For me, for that phase, people were kind of getting back to their day-to-day life. It was something that happened to me. Yes, they didn't see Sean on a daily basis necessarily, so it's not like his death was out in front of him. So it's kind of having to, again, bridge that you're getting back to work more frequently, let's say. You have business, you have adulting you have to do, you have a house you have to take care of, a child that you have to take care of, but you also have this massive grief
00:28:15
Speaker
that's occurring in this emotional journey that you're on. And how do you balance those two? How do you be able to compartmentalize enough that you can take care of what you need to while also still working through a very traumatic experience and work through those emotions? It's basically what I call how you're starting to pick up the pieces. And what does that even mean?
00:28:41
Speaker
you know, what, what trajectory does your life have? And, and it's kind of like, uh, you have to start taking baby steps to move forward. But for me, there was still so much analysis of what happened and trying to figure out, and could I have stopped him? What part did I play? And really entering that healing journey of, of starting to pick things apart. So I could start that healing process.
00:29:08
Speaker
And with within that healing, one of the chapters of that now what that I really liked, which is last one is the boundaries. Explain how boundaries played such a huge part or still play a huge part in your healing journey journey. Yeah, I was horrible at setting boundaries horrible. And so
00:29:31
Speaker
I think we all are, right? We all are. And then we get mad at everybody else. And I was saying to somebody, it's like, well, if we've never, we've never shown someone where a line is, like, how do they know they've crossed it? If we've never created it. Yeah. So share. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt.
00:29:46
Speaker
No, no, that's fine. You're right. I mean, and I say I'm a recovering people pleaser because a lot of it was I bought into a lot of the questions and things that were said about me, my marriage and my motherhood because I didn't know when the people who were seeing things initially were trusted people.
00:30:06
Speaker
And that's one of the things with grief, and I don't know if you went through this with your grieving process of some of the people you think are definitely going to have your back, don't. And in some of the people that you're like, you're a saint, where did you come from? I just met you at the, you know, grabbing groceries this morning and here you are by my side. Completely, completely. So there's no, again, no predictability, no rhyme or reason. And so, um,
Understanding Secondary Losses
00:30:34
Speaker
Sorry, I lost my train of thought first. Boundaries, the boundaries. So for you, the people pleasing component, I'll reel you in. You have one of your sections, they're called like a train without breaks or whatever. So sometimes our brain does go that way too. Oh, always and still, right. So working on the memory piece. Yes. And so what I had to start doing is by working through my own core limiting beliefs, I had to start piecing apart and really
00:31:02
Speaker
almost in another way, like I intellectualize everything. So I started analyzing what people were saying and then really trying in almost a way, kind of doing my own cognitive behavioral therapy. Like, where's the proof of this? What are they using to say this? And then finding out, figuring out, okay, like a lot of people wanted access to my son, but then thought that it was reasonable to question my motherhood. And I had to say, this doesn't feel right. And also what example am I setting for him
00:31:31
Speaker
If I'm saying it's okay for people to say these horrible things about me, but they can still have access to you. Like where's my worth in all of this? So I had to really start.
00:31:42
Speaker
peeling apart what was going on and then find myself in the middle of it because I was going in every direction. I was buying into something must be wrong with how I'm grieving. I must have caused this because we had arguments in our marriage, which everybody has arguments in their marriage. No one is a perfect parent. So I had to start saying like, where am I in all of this? And I still have times where I'm like, is it true what they were saying about me?
00:32:11
Speaker
And I have to remind myself, no, that's often a reflection of people's own grief and their, again, their fear and their anger that they couldn't stop this and didn't see this coming. And that took me a very long time to get through, but it really started initially with me just having to set one boundary at a time of, okay, if you are making a comment that it should have been me and not Sean,
00:32:37
Speaker
I think it's best that for my healing process, I need to create some space. And so one by one, and again, that people pleaser came out. What are people going to think of me? I must have done something. And now I'm much better about setting boundaries or saying, again, I try and like filter it through how does this make me feel and what kind of example or how do I want to teach my son how to be treated and also to set boundaries. And that really helped kind of guide me.
00:33:10
Speaker
Wow. Yeah, that is so much. When you just said the part that people would say that it should have been you and not like, I cannot even believe that that type of thing would come out of somebody's mouth. That brought to mind the aspect of secondary losses that occur when someone dies.
00:33:34
Speaker
in that friendships being, you know, not affected, for example, that in itself can be a secondary loss. What are some of these secondary losses that you can recall or that you experienced that were really hard for you to navigate as well as, of course, missing Sean?
00:33:55
Speaker
Oh I love that you're bringing this to light because in fact one of the things I trialed here in Colorado a grief and movement group and part of it was to exactly address those secondary losses because at the time that Sean died we were
00:34:12
Speaker
trying to expand our family. So there was this whole life that we had been creating. We were talking about two days before he died. We were talking about a trip we wanted to take when COVID restrictions were a little less. We had just met some new people who scuba dive. And so we're like, oh, we're going to go meet them and go scuba diving. So you have this whole trajectory of your life and where it was going. That's part of it.
00:34:38
Speaker
You have the loss of who you were with that person. I am not the same person, not only the person who I was with Sean, but also it's been hard for some people who knew me before his death and know me after because there are certain things about me now that are not the same. I tell people I'm still waiting for my witty sense of humor to come back because there are certain things that used to make me laugh all the time and don't anymore.
00:35:03
Speaker
And it's hard to watch people make the same jokes. I'm like, I wish I'm like trying really hard to laugh for you. It's just, it's not coming. Because some of those things just probably also just become trivial for you. Like it's just where you are in your space like that is just not worth my energy. Like, yeah, so. Absolutely. Yes. And I think there's also mourning what your life is like now.
00:35:27
Speaker
I've had to mourn the fact that I was I was not planning to be a widowed single mom. This was not part of our deal. And so there's a little bit of mourning with that. And it doesn't take away again, I like to say this, it doesn't take away the love for my son. It doesn't take away how much I enjoy being his mom. But there are some pretty hard days. And
00:35:49
Speaker
I have to mourn the fact that this is my reality now. And I think there's a whole concept of that as well as the future now and mourning that that future is without your person.
Shifting Towards Gratitude
00:36:03
Speaker
So I love that you bring that up because it's so true. We often just focus on the loss of the person or whatever we're dealing with and forget that there are so many other components to it.
00:36:14
Speaker
And that sometimes those other components and a lot of cases for people that end up being the bigger parts of their grief sometimes that they don't even realize or that they do and then they feel guilty about it too. They feel guilty about like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm more worried or more about this than that. Gosh, it's like the comparison, the judgment of ourselves, the guilt. So many other emotions come up in grief.
00:36:42
Speaker
But there is this other beautiful part of grieving as well and as your last phase, which is finding the collateral beauty. So let's go into that phase. And what was it for you when you started kind of seeing life through these other lenses?
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, and that one's hard. It's hard because your day-to-day, I mean, I wake up without Shawn. I go to bed without Shawn. And again, as time goes by, I don't really follow the time heals all wounds. I do think time is part of it, but you got to have other tools, not just time.
00:37:20
Speaker
The collateral beauty, it was when I started noticing that there were small things I was looking forward to. So if it was watching my son hang out with his cousins and him laughing, or even just hearing his giggle. I mean, I think kids have the best giggles anyway.
00:37:37
Speaker
Or I would find that I was looking forward to something. Oh my gosh. And initially it was his swim lessons, like something so random. But I was like, I'm really looking forward to this. And I think that's when you start to see, okay, there might be something that's still worth living for here. There's still potentially a life. And it took me a long time before I even thought, okay, I can actually plan for something. But it was just that mind shift of,
00:38:05
Speaker
I can plan for something, not that I am, but I can plan for something. And that's when you start to see, and I think with a big loss, and you're right, there are some things that just seem so trivial now, and they're important to other people, and I recognize that. But for me, they do seem trivial because I've had such a major loss. But then I do find beauty in something as simple as a sunset or hearing the birds chirp after it's been snowing here for so long.
00:38:33
Speaker
oh spring you know so i think when you can start finding those small things again another thing to kind of latch on to to have as a tool i like to say that's good to to get in to good practices and habits when we feel good we tend to wait until we're not feeling good or right but do it when you feel good so that when you have that day we're like oh my gosh i'm not sure i can get out of bed
00:38:58
Speaker
You're already in a habit of going, no, I crave this thing, and that's what's going to get me out of bed today.
Writing as a Healing Tool
00:39:05
Speaker
And I think that's where you can finally see like, oh, OK, I don't know how I'm going to get there, but I know I can still have joy in this life. That is so important. It's like creating an attitude of gratitude, for example. That's something we all can start now, because any of you already have that aspect of gratitude, then in hard moments,
00:39:24
Speaker
You already have that habit, then you can switch it. It's kind of like exercise or movement. Once you already have it and develop it, then it can be one of those tools that you use then during your grief. It may take sometimes a while to feel like going out for a walk, or maybe you used to go to a gym, but now you only go for walks in your grief, but you already have that
00:39:49
Speaker
So you've already established those tools and that's a big one. Yes, thank you. It's like you go camping and you know what you take to go camping usually, but here it is. This is a camping adventure you're in right now. And you might have not known that you needed XYZ. Now you know and you've put it in your toolbox and you're still finding out what other things you need for this camping trip you're on.
00:40:17
Speaker
One of these things that you did during your camping trip, I don't know why my analogies come up that way, but is to write this book. Share now, when did you then in this journey feel that you wanted to write as part of your own journey? You mentioned you're a very private person and how you grieve.
00:40:41
Speaker
Yet you still put something on a paper that was maybe part was just of your own personal process. But now you're helping others. So let's go into that, Alexandra. Yeah. Thank you. You say things so nice and concisely. I'm like, I just want to really do you know how often I go in and then be like, oh, I babbled about when I'm editing, I want to just cut off all the times that I just babbled. So for you to say that I am concise is like music to my ears.
00:41:11
Speaker
I got you on a good day. Yeah, I've always enjoyed journaling and writing. And when Sean died, I was gifted some beautiful books.
00:41:26
Speaker
but I found that nothing was really, I even searched online, nothing was really kind of showing me almost a guide of what to do when stuff is hitting the fan and you're getting it from all different directions and there's potential legal action coming your way and people are talking about custody of your kid and can you keep your house and you have all this going on all at once while you're
00:41:51
Speaker
just dealing with the fact that your husband just died and you knew what was coming and it all happens all at once. I just really felt called to write something to let people know when you're not alone.
00:42:06
Speaker
Two, you can get through this and here are some potential tools like that's the big thing for me is like I said I started collecting tools right away and those tools change daily. What I use one day we may not work the next day, but to give people an option to know like keep searching for those tools.
00:42:23
Speaker
And also, you know, if you are dealing with this, I personalized a lot of what was happening. I must have done something for all of this to happen. And that's just not the case. And to help other people realize that. So I kind of did this as a book that I wish existed.
00:42:39
Speaker
when I was going through this process, and now hope that I can help other people through the process, like I said, to know that they can get through it, and if you don't have some crazy happening awesome, there's your attitude of gratitude to say, okay, my community has come together, and if it has caused a rift, or you're dealing with all sorts of additional drama, just know that you're not alone, and it is possible to get to the other side of it.
00:43:10
Speaker
So, so perfect. It's like, if you don't, if you don't see what you want, just go create it. And that's what you did. You went ahead and just created it. You know, it's like you went and created, you created the tool you needed yourself. And as you were experiencing it, and now there's a gift then for, for others.
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:43:29
Speaker
Thank you. So Alexandra, as we wrap up this conversation, is there anything I have not asked you that you want to make sure that you share with the guests?
00:43:40
Speaker
Well, I think you've done a phenomenal job. I know. I always say I'll see you later and then people are listening. It doesn't always work. You know, I think that just keep moving forward is a big part of it and also.
00:43:55
Speaker
A big part of this process is learning and making that choice of forgiveness, which is so hard. And so I just want to encourage people to tap into the ability to love more than just your immediate community. How can you spread that love more and come to a place of forgiveness? Because I feel that the way that we can help our children is to heal ourselves first and then teach our kids healthy coping skills by showing them that we can
00:44:21
Speaker
heal our own hurts. And a big first step to that is forgiveness. I'm still on that journey. I'll be honest, I'm still working on that. Still trying to figure that out. But that's like my big encouragement is to take a moment to reflect on, on your own experiences and to take that first step to start healing.
00:44:41
Speaker
That is perfectly said. And now how can people find the Suicide Club book? How can they get it? I'll make sure to put it in the show notes. But if you want to just share with the listeners how they can find your book.
00:44:55
Speaker
Absolutely, you can look it up on Amazon is available on Amazon and also Barnes and Noble.com. They're both online. You can also I have a website called forward to joy.com. So you can find a link there as well. Or if you have any questions, I can be reached at Alexandra at forward to joy.com.
00:45:14
Speaker
Alexandra, who is this book for? Because even though it's called The Suicide Club, I honestly do not believe it's just for the person experiencing that. So I could say myself, but as you're... I could say who I think it's for, but I would like you as the author to share. Who do you think this book is for?
00:45:35
Speaker
Yeah, and I love that you were able to pick up on that. It is for, in my opinion, it's for anyone who has had any loss. And it, you know, anything that's been an impactful loss, whether it's from a person or I think there are tidbits that even could assist people who have had any sort of loss in life, whether it be like a big move or loss of a job or a big life change. I think that there are things that can help people. So anytime that you're
00:46:04
Speaker
feeling a profound loss. I think anyone could benefit from it. And I'm going to add to that. It's actually for anyone because if it's not just for someone experiencing it, but you will know someone that's going through that and to read
00:46:20
Speaker
a book that can clarify to you or give you at least a little glimpse of what that person that you love may be going through gives you a better understanding and perspective to be a better support to them as well in their journey. So I would just add to anybody, anybody, grab it. You say it for I'll be like, everyone's got to listen to Kentra. Anyone. I agree. I agree.
00:46:49
Speaker
There we go. So thank you again, Alexandra, for being on the podcast, for sharing your journey, for writing this book and creating a tool for so many others to feel connected and feel seen and heard in their own journey. So thank you again. Yes, thank you so much. It's been so nice speaking with you today. Thank you.
00:47:18
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:47:47
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.