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You Better Artpop, B*tch: Drag Makeup, Slang, and Villains.
138 Plays3 years ago
This week we are talking about the visual history of Drag, and more specifically, our everyday consumption of it! From makeup tutorials to slang, to even a particular Disney Villain. Drag may hold a larger presence in pop than you realize. And in the complete opposite direction of drag, we’re jumping into a metaphorical pile of leaves with some fall themed art news.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Themes
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello hello and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Bianca and I'm Gianna. This week we are talking about the visual history of drag and more specifically our everyday consumption of it. From makeup tutorials to slang to even a particular Disney villain, drag may hold a larger presence in pop than you realize.
00:00:22
Speaker
And in the complete opposite direction of drag, we are jumping into a metaphorical pile of leaves with some fall themed art news. So, Jonah, are you ready to fall for this art pop talk?
Personal Updates and Upcoming News
00:00:36
Speaker
I am ready indeed. Hello, my darling. Hi. We're struggling over here this evening at a PTH cable.
00:00:48
Speaker
Sometimes I feel like I'm never not struggling, you know, but it's all good. It's just, we tweak, we got it. It has been a particularly like a very busy week because you had your birthday, you were doing lots of celebrating and there was lots of work stuff that I was dealing with too, so.
00:01:09
Speaker
Yes, me as well. I feel as though I'll have some exciting things to share with you guys that I can't quite share with you all, all yet, but you know, just a day. I know that doesn't really do much for you guys.
Art News and Cultural Crossovers
00:01:27
Speaker
Not riveting content, but
00:01:29
Speaker
I am very much ellewelling at the art news of it all today, and I feel like it could be very much stigmatized as our straight culture story versus gay culture story, which was not planned. But it does work. Actually, that's very funny. That's really funny. I will say
00:01:50
Speaker
when Gianna, you know, we were talking about what art news to do and she was like, what about this article? And I was like, really? At first, I was like, I do not know about this. You know, it's funny, Bianca. What was the art news story you wanted to do? It was about like footprint or some shit. There was like this wild archaeological find about footprints, which now makes
00:02:18
Speaker
what everything that basically archaeologists had believed about the first peoples of the American regions like fall so now archaeologists are reevaluating who was here first kind of basically and
00:02:34
Speaker
That is not where we went.
The Pumpkin Spice Latte Phenomenon
00:02:37
Speaker
And you know what I said? I said, nah. I want to talk about the pumpkin spice latte. So, Gianna, are we ready for this art news? You know what? I think I've been ready. Sorry, science. You're gonna have to take a back burner today.
00:03:03
Speaker
All right, so actually I will say this past Saturday CBS
00:03:13
Speaker
My main source of news actually had an amazing story about the pumpkin supply slot. I cannot believe we're doing this for our news. I just needed you guys to know that I felt strongly enough about this to not talk about the coming about of human beings.
00:03:41
Speaker
But Jenna, I'm glad you brought it up. I'm glad you brought it up because every, you have to watch the actual story from Michelle Miller that she did on CBS Saturday. It was just so sweet and good. And I actually like, I loved everything about it and in the, in the.
00:04:01
Speaker
report. She does interview someone from a science museum, which I will talk about, but it is museum related. So we're on track here. So basically,
00:04:14
Speaker
I am going to run through the main points of this story that was presented about the pumpkin spice latte and its creation and then Gianna and I are just going to talk about this famed beverage and its artful implications. So in 2001 Peter Dukes
00:04:33
Speaker
created essentially what would become the pumpkin spice latte. So Michelle Miller is interviewing Peter Dukes, this creator, who is now the director of global growth and concepts at Starbucks, which actually sounds like a very cool job. But basically, at that time in 2001, Starbucks was coming off of the success of the Peppermint Mocha, which is my favorite
00:04:59
Speaker
holiday themed beverage from Starbucks, peppermint mocha on top. So that drink had a lot of success. And basically the team came to Peter and said, you know, look, we're wanting to create something for the fall. And
00:05:18
Speaker
Peter Dukes is talking to Michelle about how they had all these kind of, what you would typically think of as fall flavor. So like cinnamon themed, like very, um, spicy kind of, uh, scentful. Is that, is that a right word that I'm looking for? Uh,
00:05:36
Speaker
Like very, very strong kind of sense. He was like describing all these like what you would think like fall smells like, you know what I mean? But he says that the PSL was the flavor that almost wasn't because whenever they presented all these other kind of like cinnamon and whatever drinks to taste testers at Starbucks, no one's initial reaction was like, pumpkin. You know why? Because pumpkin
00:06:03
Speaker
is not like the best squash, you know what I mean? Like we love a good pumpkin pie, but it's not something that like pumpkin is not normally something that like we would have thought to be consuming in beverage form before the PSL. Well, even the essence of a pumpkin pie is more like the all spice of it all, which is really what the pumpkin spice latte is about. You know, the pumpkin is just there for texture.
00:06:33
Speaker
Right, but not in the in the PSL because getting that like squishy, chunky thing that you're like slurping through like a boba straw.
PSL's Cultural Impact on Coffee Culture
00:06:46
Speaker
Oh, I got a seed.
00:06:50
Speaker
toasty. So the drink debuted in 2003, and Starbucks has since sold more than 500 million PSLs. That's a disturbing fact. It is. So here's where I get Catherine Franson, and she is from the Science Museum of Virginia. And she said, quote, this is something marketing and economic classes will be studying for ages.
00:07:20
Speaker
And then when they are interviewing Catherine, she talks about how our addiction to the PSL originally really came through sensory explorations of our brain.
00:07:35
Speaker
Pumpkin spice, the pumpkin spice latte reaches our memories and that sense of nostalgia through its sugar content. And originally, the drink had no real pumpkin whatsoever. Again, because pumpkin is not like tasty, like I just want like a glob of pumpkin today. Not really like anything that you think about that's pumpkin flavored, that's pumpkin spiced.
00:08:02
Speaker
pumpkin bread, it all comes through those additions, like what Gianna was saying, through the spices. And so in 2015, so 12 years after the drink debuted, the recipe changed for cleaner ingredients. So that same year in 2015, PSL also opened its own verified social media feeds. It has an Instagram and it has a Twitter. Also disturbing. Yeah, also very, very odd.
00:08:32
Speaker
This was really my favorite part. They were interviewing someone who said, quote, PSL brought fun to coffee and brought people that weren't purists into cafe culture. Once we started making it more approachable, people started thinking this was less a utilitarian drink to have before work. It gave us the confidence to do what you wanted with coffee.
00:08:59
Speaker
And I want to unpack that quote here in a second, but I just think that like that approach to the pumpkin spice latte is like what APT is doing for the art world. So whenever this, I just thought that was like a great quote, like.
00:09:15
Speaker
brought people that weren't purists into cafe culture and then basically they kind of closed the story with this is a flavor that people love to hate and they were talking about how you know it'd be it'd be great if real pumpkin was in there but like it's more the marketing of it all like and as as we'll get to here in a second like pumpkin spice is now is now a huge marketing point i mean it is everywhere in every single like
00:09:43
Speaker
fall-designed little treat that you could possibly get. So Jenna, let's talk about your opinions on the PSL. Are you someone that loves to hate it? Do you like pumpkin spice? I am not opposed to it. I've been known to have the occasional pumpkin spice latte. I mean, I'm sure that I probably have maybe won every fall season, but to be honest,
00:10:13
Speaker
I'm not really like a person that does a daily Starbucks run because I'm a person that has no money. So all my money is saved on other things. But I also just think over the years, I'm not saying that I am a
00:10:31
Speaker
purist coffee person, like, blah, if you give me like a shot of espresso, I'm like, oh, God, like, it's, it's too much. But, you know, I have my little almond milk creamer that I use and in my coffee, but perhaps my newfound dietary restrictions have also changed the way in which I consume these kinds of beverages, which maybe is, I think for me,
00:11:00
Speaker
I can always take conversations about food culture in just a totally other direction and how pumpkin spice latte are like for the masses that can consume pumpkin spice latte. But to me, the interesting thing is how it's developed in
00:11:24
Speaker
Like September 22nd doesn't mark the first day of fall. The first day of fall is when Starbucks releases an image of pumpkin spice latte and it is soon again on the market. That is the first day of fall. So it's just wildly fascinating when our consumer market is what is driving our season, seasonal awareness. Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:11:51
Speaker
And that's really kind of why I wanted to talk about it, because it's not just about the pumpkin spice latte, it's about the pumpkin spice season. And I think in kind of talking about this quote from the story, like this is a season or like a term that people like to hate on. And that's kind of like my jokiness of
00:12:15
Speaker
maybe even just like southern white suburban women that are all for like the fall season and the fall aesthetic and let me pull out my rider boots and my like inflatable jacket thing and go get a pumpkin spice latte. It's like a weird preserver. Is that a life preserver? Little Marty McFly humor for you today.
00:12:41
Speaker
Hey, he made it work though. That was an iconic look. So maybe, maybe these women have a point, but it's a funny thing that happens every year. Just like how we joke about, I don't know, like men pulling out their like Patagonia, like hoodies or whatever, like it's the same shit. Yeah. Well, this is just also really interesting, I think, in terms of last week's episode where we were like, reevaluating how critical we can be of
00:13:07
Speaker
this perceived and realistic culture of like white suburban women with the Ray Dunn pottery conversation. But like, I don't know that quote, like, you know, when you take a step back and like, especially when we think about what we're doing here at Art Pop Talk and thinking about making art accessible and art doesn't have to be for academics and like, we want to be involved in art culture and museum culture.
00:13:36
Speaker
But it would be great if we didn't have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for that acceptance into that culture. And so it's really interesting to think about what the PSL has done for this, quote, cafe culture.
00:13:56
Speaker
And I think that's for me where the really interesting point of the conversation lies, is just making things accessible and I don't know, that sense of belonging in something or that idea that you can like something and have something and be a part of something and it's there for you every season and it returns for you and it's okay to like it, but it's just that
00:14:23
Speaker
contrast because I am not big pumpkin spice fan. I love pumpkin pie at Thanksgiving. I love a good piece of pumpkin pie, but that's pretty much it for me. You know, it's not, were you gonna say those little Debbie snacks? No, but I did have one when I went home, mom bought them and I was like, oh yeah, little Debbie pumpkin cookie. Those are, those slap, those are freaking good.
00:14:54
Speaker
Those are our PSL. But again, it's like all sugar and it's nostalgic for our childhood when like the fall season came and mom would pack those in our lunches and they also don't taste like pumpkin. No, they don't. They don't taste like anything.
00:15:12
Speaker
they're like also like gooey. Yeah they're good. They're not very good. I love them but I wonder if art will ever like get to that point where it feels like or I don't know I think there are some like art movements that definitely have reached that point like you could talk about Jeff Koons and the balloon dog like I feel like that has like a similar
00:15:36
Speaker
I don't know. Something about that has like a similar point of reference with the PSL. I definitely understand what you mean and I feel as though we've talked about that and how we have to catch ourselves sometimes when people are talking about perhaps like a surreal experience they had and they're talking about maybe something like
00:16:00
Speaker
Starry night and how like we that's a painting that we've referred to and I have made fun of and how people kind of like swarm that At the MoMA but even this happened to me recently had a person come up to me and they were talking about like oh my gosh and I didn't even know that was there and like
00:16:16
Speaker
In my head, I'm like, like, I can be like a snob in my head, because I have access to this information. And I've had the luxury to see it a couple times. But I'm not going to actively shit on somebody's art experience. Like, that's just goes against everything I believe in. But you do have those like moments where you love to hate on things. Yeah. Yeah. Good story, Gianna. Very good pic.
Exploring Drag Culture and Pop Culture
00:16:44
Speaker
Wow. Well, you know, it's no development of humanity, but it is a development of consumer seasonal culture. You're welcome. I'm ready for the peppermint mocha. You do like a peppermint mocha. I love it. I'd say that if I had to pick like a fun flavored coffee
00:17:07
Speaker
It's the gingerbread latte that comes out in Christmas. I do like that one. I hear from Dr. Elizabeth Green that they are bringing the gingerbread latte back this year because
00:17:20
Speaker
Let me tell you something. Dr. Green loves a gingerbread latte and they haven't had it on the menu, I guess, the past few years. And she may correct me about this, but I am pretty sure that she's like written to Starbucks in some form about like bringing back the gingerbread latte. I don't think I've ever had it. I like that chestnut praline one. That's good.
00:17:44
Speaker
I guess I just didn't know. But again, like it's been a rough year folks. You know, we have a buy me a coffee account also. Yeah. On the topic of this subject, you know, literally buy me a coffee or a matcha so I can drink it. That is it, Jonah. That is a fantastic plug. So head on over to our social media bio. Click that link. Buy me a coffee.
00:18:13
Speaker
We're thirsty for pumpkin spice latte. Well, I am ready to switch from one cultural phenomenon to another. So are we ready for today's art pop talk?
00:18:34
Speaker
We are talking about drag culture and its significance on pop culture. Drag culture has affected every aspect of our way of life from visual culture, fashion, beauty, and performance, but also how we communicate not only through a visual language, but talking that audible language, creating slang,
00:18:55
Speaker
and how that has become colloquial in the everyday. The origins of drag culture and the action of cross-dressing can be taken way back and even cross-culturally. So we're going to recap that history, talk about our unawareness and ignorance of consuming drag and queer culture that can threaten and lead to that erasure of it at the same time.
00:19:22
Speaker
And Bianca is going to address some of that with a discussion on the drag queen divine, inspiring the look of a familiar Disney villain. Yes, I am really excited to talk about this topic. I feel like we throughout APT have kind of mentioned like our different affirmations of drag culture or love for drag culture, or I don't know, different associations that we have with it, but I'm excited to dive a little deeper today.
00:19:52
Speaker
Yeah, so I'll be referring to an article today from New Face written by Kalyn Tran, which I'm laughing because in my text I have possessed some questions, but I definitely meant pose some questions for us today. Pose. Getting into this spooky season. Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
00:20:18
Speaker
So how did something once considered to be a shameful type of entertainment blossom into the revered art form that it is today? So let's start with some history that she lays out for us, shall we? In order to understand the importance of drag culture, it's helpful to first know what it is. According to Jo E. Jeffries, a drag historian and professor of theater studies at New York University,
00:20:47
Speaker
It's whenever someone puts quote on clothes that is considered to be not appropriate to them and then wearing it with some type of ironic distance. By Jeffrey's definition drag can be traced back to ancient Native American indigenous South American Egyptian ceremonies and Japanese theater.
00:21:06
Speaker
Jonathan David, author of the book Drag Diaries, wrote that religious and spiritual occasions from past civilization called for drag clothing. In Japanese theater, men were made up and dressed to look like female characters when performing folk dances. The practice of men playing female roles can also be seen in ancient Greek and Shakespearean theater.
00:21:27
Speaker
The term drag originated in Britain. It was first used as a subject of English theater slang in the 1870s to refer to the long skirts that men wore on stage. Men continued to wear exaggerated makeup and clothing to play female roles until it finally became legal
00:21:44
Speaker
for women to perform in 1660. Soon men started impersonating females and performing in vaudeville shows, which are a type of entertainment featuring specialty acts like burlesque comedy, song, and dance. William Dorsey Swan, the first person to call himself a drag queen, began to host drag balls in the 1880s. Drag was never associated with homosexuality,
00:22:09
Speaker
until sexology, the study of sex and sexual practices amongst different cultures, developed ideas about a third sex in an attempt to rationalize why drag queens existed. By the 1930s,
00:22:24
Speaker
The scientific conversation had worked its way into the popular culture and linked drag with homosexuality. As a result, drag became nearly shunned. Masquerade laws punished those who cross dressed in public. Gay bars had to operate underground, though we know that those were constantly raided by police.
Drag's Influence on Fashion and Beauty
00:22:44
Speaker
This continued until the Stonewall Riots in 1969. When the first gay pride parade was held a year later,
00:22:51
Speaker
Gradual attempts for the LGBTQ plus community grew. Though drag queens and transgender individuals were still marginalized more than their queer peers, drag icons began to emerge. The culture slowly began to reenter mainstream society. Signs of the acceptance of drag can be seen in films,
00:23:12
Speaker
like in the actor Tim Curry's RecuHort picture show, a classic that we'll soon be watching, and celebrities like musicians David Bowie's Dramatic Style. Other things entering our film history like the documentary Paris is Burning, which I'll refer to a little bit later in terms of some of the language that we use that is now colloquial, followed the story for about seven years and about a drag ball in New York City.
00:23:39
Speaker
And then we had the movie Birdcage, which was a comedy about the gay couple who ran a drag, Cabaret. And that really kind of helped grow in American culture. And then the list of other role models go on and on. And we're going to talk about one in particular, as we mentioned in the intro, relating to even something so mainstream like Disney.
00:24:05
Speaker
one of whom RuPaul Charles has become one of the most well-known drag queens in the community. Her 1996 song, Supermodel, You Better Work, launched the success of her performance career, her competitive reality show RuPaul's Drag Race,
00:24:19
Speaker
premiered in 2009. It's been on for 12 years, and it has opened up a space for drag voices to be seen heard and accepted. So even though most of drag history addresses men who perform as women, drag kings also make up a large part of community. Kings like Murray Hill perform as masculine personas. The first international drag king extravaganza was held in 1999.
00:24:48
Speaker
where drag kings gathered in non-competitive environments with their fans. So one of the things that I'm going to talk about or I guess two of the things I'm going to talk about is going to be beauty and fashion and then go into language. And I really liked the way that this article kind of laid out
00:25:08
Speaker
this history for us kind of giving us this deep breathe but then also talking about it in modern terms because so much of our beauty and our fashion and our language our slang is attributed to drag queens and grad
00:25:23
Speaker
drag culture, but we don't always acknowledge that. So I'm going to continue to read from this article and then Bianca and I, you can talk about it a little bit and just share our thoughts. So many makeup trends. We all survived the 2012 beauty guru era, or at least I did, but that are now popular amongst beauty gurus and makeup fanatics come from drag community.
00:25:51
Speaker
We have those cut creases, we have contouring, we have baking. I mean, we were all baking our faces so much. 2012 through 2014, the banana powder, like couldn't get enough of it. Couldn't keep it in stock on the shelves.
00:26:06
Speaker
But those are all techniques that are used from these types of performers, and that is what embodies these characters. The signature heavy and dynamic application is used for several reasons. As men who are playing feminine roles, they need to completely change their masculine features to be more dainty or feminine, or again put on that persona that they're trying to create, whatever that may be.
00:26:30
Speaker
Additionally drag queens perform on stage under bright lights which means that they you know need that makeup to stay. I think any kind of stage performer will tell you that they enhance fire you know their makeup so you can see it from also a far distance. Getting into maybe more
00:26:50
Speaker
familiar territory here. The Kardashians are known for their use of contouring and Kylie Jenner is famous for her plump, overlined lips, all techniques coming from drag communities. Even one of the Kardashians makeup artist Joyce Bonnelli has previously stated that her techniques are inspired by quote, drag anything and everything.
00:27:18
Speaker
This article also states a quote from a celebrity makeup artist, Renny Vasquez, quote, I don't think that the drag community gets the credit they deserve for the trends that are happening with makeup. So many trends started with the drag community. I would love to see drag get more recognition for it. I think that we're moving into
00:27:38
Speaker
a moment where people are digging in a little deeper and they're like, where did this come from? Drag queens are starting to get some recognition, but I do feel it's long overdue. So that's kind of the makeup of it all and let's go into the fashion of it all. Additionally, fashion has also been an area impacted by drag as a form of entertainment that often involves dressing up in elaborate fantastical outfits
00:28:06
Speaker
It's natural that fashion would be influenced. The queens of RuPaul's Drag Race are challenged to make and style their own outfits to walk down the runway. It's a test of creativity and skills when it comes to creating garments.
00:28:21
Speaker
when we consume something like drag race, we are in a sense very familiar and excited for what is going to partake there. But then when other designs kind of come out into the fruition, kind of like what we saw with Target happening, there was a black queer designer that created this
00:28:41
Speaker
line of really bright, extravagant, interesting dresses that a lot of people made fun of. So I think it's kind of interesting that like, we so love and see like consume drag race when we like know and when we're expecting these kind of like fantastical things to
00:29:00
Speaker
to appear on our screen. But then when we're consumed or we're faced with them in the everyday, we're like a little kind of skidded to it or we don't know
Drag Language and Cultural Appropriation
00:29:08
Speaker
how we feel about it. And then that's where we got a lot of discussion this year. So along those lines of being unaware or ignorant to that kind of queer culture that is entering the mainstream or other parts of our consumer world, I want to go into language as this article states out.
00:29:25
Speaker
I think it's really, really interesting when we use such colloquial terms like slay or yes, and that's become such a part of the everyday that there's maybe that stigma to it that comes from like queer culture and maybe we know that, but maybe we're using it in a joking way and we're still not unaware or we're still not aware of its origin.
00:29:51
Speaker
And that's precisely what isn't okay, because as this article suggests, it can erase the origin of where it came from, even the mispronunciation that can sometimes come out of that. When things become misheard, misquoted,
00:30:10
Speaker
mispronounce. That's where things get lost in history and gets lost in translation. It becomes this game of telephone and that's when things also become commodified and that's when the originators of that slang
00:30:26
Speaker
don't benefit. So as this article states, while the appropriation of drag language may symbolize the acceptance of the community, it also threatens the erasure of significance behind the words. These phrases are sometimes adopted by younger generations because they sound cool or catchy, but there's a history of politics, race, and marginalization that goes behind each saying.
00:30:53
Speaker
So I think even things that we've gotten recently, like by Felicia and T, are new kind of colloquial terms that we've all adopted. And I think it's really interesting that the origin of saying, yes, Y-A-S comes from the documentary, Paris is Burning, following those individuals in New York and seeing light too.
00:31:19
Speaker
to drag culture and then those becoming our colloquial terms. So we do have a lot to get into with Bianca's subject for the day, but I would like to hear your thoughts on a lot of these things that are perhaps being lost in translation when it comes to drag history.
Drag's Influence on Disney's Ursula
00:31:40
Speaker
yeah and even as i'm thinking about i don't know this is just like i'm like ria just from again like our ray done conversation to the pumpkin spice latte to like drag culture i feel like the past few weeks we've just been thinking about like
00:31:57
Speaker
i don't know like stereotypes in subcultures and i just think that that's like a really interesting dynamic that for whatever reason we've just been thinking about a lot lately what's really interesting to hear you talk about is like i remember when you in particular were really going through that like beauty vlogger phase and it was just now it's really interesting
00:32:23
Speaker
to not only hear you talk about it from thinking about how you used to
00:32:30
Speaker
intake that imagery but then like that recognition where it's due I just I wonder I don't know like um I don't know it's just one of those interesting concepts where it's like where's the boundary between like going too far in your um in one's use of that visual history you know what I mean like where is the line between appropriation and copying and and being being inspired by something I think that's like
00:33:00
Speaker
terms of like art history and kind of visual history that's like the the line that I'm just like towing around with in my head if that makes sense. Yeah it does and I I do think you're you're so right and kind of pointing out the the tone that we are taking in this episode falls in line with even if you want to call it this kind of just surface level digestion into
00:33:28
Speaker
visual culture that we're consuming but I think it's just about first breaking that that barrier and asking those questions because what I do find interesting is okay we have these celebrity makeup artists working for people like the Kardashians and they've quoted and have acknowledged in some of their statements oh drag everything drag culture this has helped me create these looks and
00:33:57
Speaker
that's what I've created for these celebrities for this and this reason. It lasts long, it's exaggerated, so on and so forth. And so it's interesting that we have that acknowledgement from those makeup artists, but then once that celebrity and someone that has so much powder
00:34:13
Speaker
power and power, like the Kardashians, is that that is where that sentiment gets lost in translation. Because that is where things just become consumed and the origin of that history gets lost.
00:34:30
Speaker
So where is that line? You know, I don't want to dictate the creativity of makeup artists, but even in like, you know, the 2012 to 2014 days or, you know, even a little bit earlier than that, you know, I'd have these
00:34:47
Speaker
beauty gurus and I watch queer beauty gurus I watch trans beauty gurus, but they weren't drag queens like obviously it's it's different and You know, they would create these highly embellished full glam looks but then when it became Halloween time, you know that that's when they would try to kind of do their They're more creative. They're more fantastical outfits and or makeup looks and it was even this kind of
00:35:17
Speaker
not a running joke, but they would show us images of maybe the first drag look that they tried to create and then moving forward, then how that would look and how that would develop. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to participate in that drag culture and trying to create that look. But again, where is that line and where is the origin of that history? And
00:35:40
Speaker
As a 14-year-old, I'm not understanding those connections. I'm just like, ooh, makeup, fun, pretty, this is fun to watch, which is okay.
00:35:54
Speaker
Where's the line? Also, I think it's interesting. There's a really interesting, like, I don't know if it's a trend on TikTok or just like, where makeup artists or just whoever, they're just people. Like on your feed, they're just, they're just like normal people doing a look. You know what I mean? Like, but people who distinctively recreate looks from a drag queen themselves. So like, I've seen Bianca Del Rio looks like Bianca Del Rio has like a very particular
00:36:24
Speaker
type of makeup that she's always wearing or Trixie Mattel. I've seen people also recreate Trixie Mattel makeup. And I think that that's another really interesting aspect to that point of admiration, I guess, when we're thinking about not copying, but this is a fan producing a piece of fan art, you know what I mean? But it's on their bodies. And that's another really interesting form of
00:36:48
Speaker
of love and affection for that, I think. Yeah. Well, I think that opens up a whole other conversation about just drag queen fandom and how to participate in that. I think we could do a really interesting conversation with our friends at Nerd Textic Galaxy, Nebula and Wooper about fandom culture and drag culture and those intersections and how to participate that in a loving way, but also
00:37:18
Speaker
understanding what you're doing and how to do that appropriately. So we do have a little bit more to get into. But if you want Bianca, you want to take a little break? That sounds good. And then whenever we come back, we are going to be talking about divine.
00:38:06
Speaker
All right, everyone. Welcome back. When Gianna and I started thinking about this topic a long time ago, it was actually kind of spurred by a TikTok where someone was talking about the connection between Ursula in Disney's animated feature, The Little Mermaid.
00:38:26
Speaker
and the drag queen divine. And there are a few interesting articles that we will link for you in our show notes as well about the visual representation of that kind of drag look, those kind of drag mannerisms and this kind of campiness that Disney villains take on in
00:38:48
Speaker
their caricature. But today I want to wrap up our episode by talking about, again, divine being the inspiration for Ursula in The Little Mermaid.
00:39:02
Speaker
And some of you may be pretty familiar with this fact. I think like this may have been spurred on by the live action Little Mermaid, actually, because Melissa McCarthy was cast as Ursula or is Melissa McCarthy playing Ursula in the in the Hallie Bailey, the live action Ariel, not the the theatrical performance that was like live on TV. Yeah, I think the
00:39:33
Speaker
the movie that feels like it's been in the making forever. I like there were two there was the like live on NBC or whatever performance of The Little Mermaid and then there's also the movie coming out with Halle Bailey which I'm excited to see but in one of those instances Melissa McCarthy is cast as Ursula and I think there was a conversation taking a place about like why did why wasn't a drag queen cast to play Ursula
00:40:01
Speaker
And I have to say, I think Eureka would be a fantastic Ursula. And I think October, October 11th or October 1st, Shangela, Bob the Drag Queen and Eureka have season two of their show coming out on HBO as well. So those are three queens that come from RuPaul's Drag Race. So if you're interested in a new show from them, go to HBO and you can watch it there.
00:40:30
Speaker
Anywho, Pat Carroll is actually the person who voiced Ursula for the movie, but the look and the character design was inspired by the drag queen Divine.
00:40:46
Speaker
Harris Glen Millstead was born in Baltimore in 1945 and is better known by the stage name, Divine. Divine was an actor, singer, and drag queen who was closely associated with the independent filmmaker John Waters.
00:41:02
Speaker
Waters is actually the person who gave Divine that stage name as well. Divine had a lot of roles in cinematic and theatrical productions, and that included playing Edna Turnblad in the 1988 film version of Hairspray that was directed by Waters. Divine passed away shortly after the release of this movie at the age of 42, but had starred in numerous film projects,
00:41:32
Speaker
and had also released disco tracks before passing. People magazine described Divine as the drag queen of the century upon her death. She's remained a cult figure of course within the LGBTQ plus community.
00:41:48
Speaker
and has provided a lot of inspiration for fictional characters, artworks, and songs. There are various books and documentary films devoted to the life of divine, including Divine Trash from 98 and I Am Divine from 2013.
00:42:05
Speaker
During production of The Little Mermaid, Ursula's design evolved and transformed quite a few times over the making. Animator Glen Keane's earliest sketches of Ursula were drawn to resemble various film and television actresses of the time.
00:42:23
Speaker
who were originally thought that might work for casting as well. So like people from the television show Dynasty, that was like a little before the Little Mermaid, but there was a short-lived casting of Broadway star Elaine Stritch as Ursula and that little performance, that little kind of mini casting of Ursula or Audition inspired the animators to design the character as quote, a tall, thin, regal looking sea witch.
00:42:52
Speaker
based on manta rays and scorpion fish, complete with a long cape. At one point, the character Ursula had also been drawn with spikes to resemble a spinefish. Similarities were first drawn between the character and the persona of Divine after animator Rob Minkoff sketched, quote, a vampy overweight matron.
00:43:17
Speaker
to which then lyricist, producer, and writer Howard Ashman responded, quote, she looks like a Miami beach matron playing mahjong by the pool. The character that we now see in the film shares Divine's signature eye makeup, jewelry, and body type, while originally was supposed to be sporting a mohawk, which was borrowed from Divine's look in the cult classic Pink Flamingos from 72.
00:43:48
Speaker
Minkoff had been drawing the character with a shark's tail at the time, but then director and screenwriter John Clemens eventually decided to place Ursula's head on top of the body of an octopus, which resulted in what we see now. The animators studied the way in which octopuses move, explaining, quote,
00:44:08
Speaker
There was a very kind of seductive and scary aspect which they incorporated into the characters mannerisms. The pink flamingos inspired hairstyle was eventually discarded because Disney felt like the hairstyle was quote unquote too over the top for the film.
00:44:26
Speaker
Additionally, Ursula's face was also inspired by that of Madame Medusa from Disney's The Rescuers from 1997. That's something that once this this article mentioned that character from The Rescuers, it's like one of those things that is just
00:44:44
Speaker
left in the back of your mind and then when you remember it it's like oh my gosh yeah like I can kind of see the this like idea and the exaggerated makeup features according to a book the gospel according to disney faith trust and pixie dust the author mark pinsky says quote ursula became the most grotesque characterization disney had ever created for a female villain at the time
00:45:13
Speaker
Then there's another book From Mouse to Mermaid, The Politics of Film, Gender, and Culture. This is a compilation of essays that was first published in 95 that has some super interesting analyses of gender performance that come through in the film overall, but with particular focus on the campiness of Ursula's character as well.
00:45:35
Speaker
So I'm going to read from an essay from Laura Sells. This essay is called, Where Do the Mermaid Stand? Voice and Body in the Little Mermaid.
00:45:45
Speaker
In comparison to the original kind of Hans Christian Andersen telling of the Little Mermaid, Sells argues that Disney's version substitutes gender for class and embedded within this classic narrative about an adolescent girl's coming of age is a very contemporary story about the cost, pleasures,
00:46:07
Speaker
and dangers of a woman's access to the human world. On one level, Ariel's story is a parable of bourgeois feminist ideas, seeking upward mobility and access to a white male system from which she is excluded.
00:46:24
Speaker
a passage that costs Ariel her voice. On the other level, the parable transcends the status quo and offers possibilities for recuperation and resistance, even as Ariel is passed from the arms of her father to the arms of her husband. Sel says that the undoing and pleasures of the Little Mermaid are actually found in the character of Ursula.
00:46:49
Speaker
a drag queen who destabilizes gender as she performs it, who in the dark continent of the feminine is jouissance, the multiplicity of a woman's abundant pleasures.
00:47:04
Speaker
So this article basically says that Ursula is the one who gives Ariel these lessons about womanhood and that Ursula offers an important position to resist these kind of usual tellings of womanhood that Disney has kind of previously put forth in their different fairy tales.
00:47:24
Speaker
And we all love that song that Ursula sings. You know, when she's down in her cave, she's going to, you know, take Ariel's voice. But she's singing this song about body language. And this author, Laura Sells, argues that Ursula stages a, quote, camp drag show about being a woman.
00:47:43
Speaker
in the white male system. And this scene begins kind of backstage where Ursula's getting ready. She's putting on like her lipstick that she kind of squeezes out of that like little, you know, like fissure shell. Oh my God, I love it when she does that. She like squeezes that little like plant. And then she like erudges her lips. Yes.
00:48:02
Speaker
And then she kind of has these like exaggerated, this exaggerated form of body language where she's like shimmying and she's wiggling and her, you know, tentacles are kind of all over the place. And she even has a feather boa at one point and Sel says- And her like decolletage too. Yes, yes. This performance is a masquerade, a drag show starring Ursula as an ironic figure.
00:48:28
Speaker
And then in the rest of the essay, it's interesting where Sells argues that in Ursula's drag scene, Ariel learns that gender is performance. And Ursula doesn't really, she doesn't symbolize womanhood, but she performs it in a really interesting way. And of course, we could get into a lot of things about, from Judith Butler,
00:48:55
Speaker
gender performance, gender identity. Butler says performativity has to do with repetition, very often with the repetition of oppressive and painful gender norms to force them to re-signify. This is not freedom, but a question of how to work the trap that one is inevitably in. So that was a really interesting article and I really enjoyed reading it. There's also a lot more to be said about
00:49:24
Speaker
Disney and their not just the what they put forth in kind of this idea of the Disney Princess, which is, I think what a lot of people kind of tend to focus on, but how how gender is performed through these
00:49:39
Speaker
animated versions of people. In a class I took, you know, we talked about Princess and the Frog and how when they are both frogs, you can tell which frog is Naveen and which frog is Princess Tiana because like Tiana has eyelashes and Naveen is like, you know, has no makeup on. So there's even these types of like different
00:50:03
Speaker
aesthetics, like different hints of makeup like within like frogs in Princess and the Frog. And the same thing can be said for The Lion King, which is also an interesting example that we can use drag culture and our villains as well. There's this very like, it's like a classical eyelid.
00:50:29
Speaker
look where you have like heavy eyeliner, like a lifted eye look, a lot of eyeshadow, a darkened halo around your eye that is even used in our villain lion to, in a way, other that lion. Right, right. And the same thing can be said for Maleficent. Maleficent has like a very distinct like high lifted brow.
00:50:57
Speaker
as well as Cruella De Vil. And like I said, there are some articles that we'll link where there's kind of like little brief, I guess, analyses between like the looks that Disney villains offer and then that connection to kind of drag culture, which you're right, Gianna, is meant kind of subconsciously to other that caricature as villainous, as evil, as different. So it's so interesting.
00:51:25
Speaker
And I think what I would like to point out there is that I don't think those things are subconscious. And that's what I would like to pinpoint out from our original article. But to a little kid, to a little kid who's like in taking those images, like a child might not know that.
00:51:44
Speaker
This is like drag culture, so it becomes one of those subconscious biases that is like later on built up over time. Sure, but also for us too and ongoing. As adults, there was a point in my
00:52:00
Speaker
in my life, in my adulthood, where I started to question those things, but not subconscious to the creators, I guess I should say. And that's where we need to talk about that form of othering and that form of cultural erasure that is not good. I think the kind of reboot of these
00:52:29
Speaker
live action Disney movies that are coming back. They still have, the characters still have common characteristics of the animation. And I get that they're trying to hold on to this nostalgia of the original images, but especially when you're having real life people put on this performative wear. I think that becomes a question that we should be asking.
00:52:58
Speaker
or perhaps a franchise should be asking. And it's interesting that it was kind of, I don't know, again, in the case of like the Melissa McCarthy Ursula example, I think a lot of people did know that Ursula was inspired by a drag queen. So like, why are we not getting that questioning with things like Maleficent, the live action one, or even with Cruella? That's another really interesting aspect.
00:53:25
Speaker
Cruella, something they did. You know, Cruella wasn't my favorite, but I thought it was very interesting that Cruella went to this like thrifted store of the owner who had the persona of a gay man, a gay man in fashion. And she like went to him to help her want to stir up some trouble. And he thought like she was such an icon and such a badass because of her whole fantastical getup.
00:53:56
Speaker
So it's like, Disney has for so long been doing these things and using gay culture, but then also like only now they're starting to throw in gay characters, but not mainstream characters. So it just feels like we're continuously like using gay culture and people as props to like fit that narrative and like that, like little,
00:54:23
Speaker
I mean it wasn't even a little moment in a Cruella like he wasn't like a super reoccurring character but he was a part of her plot. Right. I just I don't know it just like it just didn't settle well with me or I thought it was odd or I don't know again I'm just like I wasn't into like the prop of it all.
Bushwig Festival and Drag's Cultural Significance
00:54:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:45
Speaker
Yeah, totally. So one thing that I did want to end on is we did just have Bushwick, which is the festival devoted to drag music and love taking place in New York. And that happened
00:55:01
Speaker
when it was like September 20th, I think is when it got the recap, it just ended. But there's a quote from this Pride article talking about why Bushwick is important, but it said that drag for so many, both performers and spectators, provides an escape into fantasy.
00:55:20
Speaker
And I just, I thought that was really interesting thinking about this conversation of also vilifying drag queens and how it's really easy to have villains play that role into the fantasy and into the escape by taking on that aesthetic and by taking on that appearance. But also in that way, like vilifying drag culture and kind of
00:55:49
Speaker
almost flipping it and what it was supposed to do. And maybe, I don't know, maybe that's just me diving in too deep or I don't know. I don't want to say like making speculations or I don't want to say also just me overthinking it. But it does seem a little like contrary to what the point of drag should be because it is supposed to be this pivotal point of strength and
00:56:16
Speaker
and positivity and it seems like, you know, it's taken and it's, it's vilifying that. Right. And it's also interesting to think about so much of drag culture is about the, the performance aspect too. And it's sometimes with drag performance, it's like, you need that spectatorship. Like part of the aspect of performance relies on someone else, like in taking that.
00:56:44
Speaker
performance as a spectator and like being a part of that as well. So it is really interesting because like I do think that there's a very large aspect of drag culture that is kind of
00:56:55
Speaker
It's like reciprocal. We have a performer but we also have an audience and they both kind of rely on each other to kind of complete the performance. So it's interesting how in things like Disney, they're taking that aspect of performance and feeding it to a spectator or an audience as kind of that one-way street instead of a two-way street, if that makes sense.
00:57:18
Speaker
i did really like what you were referring to earlier about ursa also like being this person that is like facilitating those ideas about sexuality and like gender politics and that is like so much of what that performance does as well but it's
00:57:35
Speaker
You know, the villains are also those, a lot of times those people, those people are those characters that are like questioning those types of things. And they're the catalyst for the whole plot as well. Like, you know what I mean? You, you need this quote unquote villain, just like you need, like as an audience, you need a, you need a performer if you're, if you're attending something like that. And so I think it's interesting that like the villain is actually like the catalyst for often
00:58:02
Speaker
what happens in those types of movies. Right. But I think so often, the person that you love to hate is the person that is going to take on that unique aesthetic. And even some older films, I was thinking when you were mentioning the rescuers, Bianca, I was thinking of when Carol Burnett was an Annie. And she's like,
00:58:25
Speaker
the person that oversees the orphanage. And she sings that iconic little girl song, but she's in her lingerie, but she has her thin brows and she's got her little kimono on and her jewelry on. And it's a calculated aesthetic that they have crafted. Ooh, well, this was fun. And you know what? Now is perhaps a great time. I was thinking about, you know, Gianna, when you mentioned Rocky Horror,
00:58:55
Speaker
This is our last episode, obviously for the month of September, but next week we are diving right back into the spooky season. We are going to have spooky and Halloween themed content all month long, all October long. And Gianni got me thinking about perhaps a Rocky Horror idea. Ooh, that could be fun. We'll have to talk about that. Yeah, I would, you know, I'm into like,
00:59:24
Speaker
sex aliens and I'm into Tim Curry. Tim Curry is definitely on like people that I think are like so beautiful in this world is like Zendaya and Tim Curry. I just think I mean they make the list of like the most gorgeous people in the world in whatever universe they come from.
00:59:47
Speaker
I like it. I like Tim Curry on that list. Muppet Treasure Island. Tim Curry? Muppet Treasure Island. You want to know why we're bisexuals? It's because of Muppet Treasure Island. Let me tell you, Tim Curry and Muppet Treasure Island has nothing, nothing on Jack Sparrow. Absolutely nothing.
Conclusion and Future Content
01:00:09
Speaker
Goodbye. End of episode.
01:00:12
Speaker
On that note, I feel very strongly. I agree. I agree. 1000%. I agree. No. Don't forget, you can donate to art pop talks by me a coffee account if you like our content and you want to hear more. We would so appreciate your support.
01:00:31
Speaker
And if you're in the mood for a little given this fall, don't forget to donate to our friends over at Cultural, a journal and their Kickstarter campaign. They are trying to raise money to launch not only digitally, but also in print. This is a really big deal and your donations will make that a possibility. And more importantly, you make it possible for them to actually pay their contributors, including us here at ArtPop Talk.
01:00:58
Speaker
If you feel like donating to their Kickstarter campaign, that would be amazing because that also helps us create more content as well. So you can find that link in our bio across our social media. And with that, I think Gianna, we will talk to you all next Tuesday. Get ready for a very fun month of Halloween content. Bye everyone. Bye.
01:01:23
Speaker
Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci-Vinc. And me, Gianna Martucci-Vinc. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner and photography is by Adrian Turner. And our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.
01:01:54
Speaker
you