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62. Mormonism, Deconstructed
16 Plays10 days ago
This week we decided to take a deeper dive into our respective journeys out of the Mormon church, and the internal mental/emotional/spiritual work it took to reach where we are today. (And as usual, we have plenty of ADHD sidebars along the way. lol)
Come to Anahata’s Purpose (and you can attend Molly’s workshop on Healing The Inner Teenager!): https://www.anahataspurpose.com
We're so grateful you're here! If you like what you’re hearing, you can find more exclusive content by supporting us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/soulpodthepodcast - especially if you want that freeeee exclusive bumper sticker hehehe. We can’t wait to see you over there!
You can also follow us on Instagram: @soulpodthepodcast, or email us directly at soulpodthepodcast@gmail.com.
Molly does tarot readings online and locally in Massachusetts: https://www.thehighpriestesscoaching.com/
Christina sells delicious microgreens in the greater Detroit area: https://www.christinasgreens.com/
Please follow Jim’s furniture business, Modern/Haunted: House & Home on TikTok and Instagram: @modernhaunted
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernhaunted
Hosts: Christina Bell & Molly Wilde
Music: The Confrontation, by Jonathan Boyle, licensed from Premium Beats by Shutterstock
Editing: Molly Wilde
Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is for entertainment and enjoyment. We are not professionals in any regard. We do not have professional knowledge, training, or education in physical health, mental health, or spiritual matters. Any suggestions or recommendations made during our episodes should be independently researched by the listener before considering implementation, or better yet, listeners should ignore everything we say. We cannot be held responsible or liable for anything we say, or any actions taken by any persons as a result of listening to our podcast episodes. Stay safe, stay informed, stay smart.
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Transcript
Technical Mishaps and Norse Coasters
00:00:21
Speaker
technical difficulties yeah let's try round round two luckily we didn't get very far yeah honestly actually that's very lucky we only made it four minutes into recording and we're chatting about my nails uh yeah not anything of particular consequence so ha So yeah.
00:00:46
Speaker
And then I was showing you the, uh, the coaster. Yeah. Yeah. This coaster that Christina, it's a set that Christina got me.
Yard Sale Plans and Alice in Wonderland
00:00:56
Speaker
Um, that is basically just Norse themed Viking themed.
00:01:02
Speaker
Um, because i do, I do be liking that Viking life, liking the Vikings. Excuse me. Um,
00:01:15
Speaker
And that I had unpacked all of it because we're going to, have well, we're going to try to decorate too, but we're going sell stuff. Yeah. We're going to do a yard sale without having a yard.
00:01:30
Speaker
It's going fun though. I'm, uh, I'm hopeful that it will yield some kind of result because there's like some nice stuff that Jim wants to sell too. Yeah.
00:01:42
Speaker
So we're hopeful that we can sell like, you know, there's going to be the stuff that's like, you know, just extra things we don't want or need. and then the like actually nice curated stuff that he's like put a lot of work in time and into.
00:01:59
Speaker
Like his arts, artsy stuff. Yeah. Yeah. In particular, he's got this like vanity that's Alice in Wonderland themed. Yeah. Um, yeah.
00:02:12
Speaker
And, uh, that one we're hopeful will yield a couple, at least a couple hundred bucks. Sweet. That'd be pretty dope. I want to see it. I will send you a photo.
00:02:26
Speaker
Sweet. But yeah.
Weekend Plans and Rearranging Spaces
00:02:28
Speaker
So there's that. And, uh, so we're going to try to do that on Saturday. And then on Sunday, we're going to buy him a bed. Yay. you get a hold of those people for the twin?
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Are you get that one? That's, yeah. We asked if we could, if they could hang on to it until the weekend. um And it's an hour and a half drive away.
00:02:52
Speaker
But it's a nice bed. it looks nice. It's got like the little cupboards up on the like headboard. Yeah. And there's a light in the middle. i saw. Yeah, so.
00:03:04
Speaker
And there's drawers underneath. oh cool. Cool. Yeah, so that's pretty dope. So yeah, I think it'll be the right thing. Nice. It'll be very good. And then he'll move into this room. Yeah, are going to move your workstation? live in the living room.
00:03:20
Speaker
Into the living room. Okay. Yeah. He was like so concerned about displacing me. He's like, you use your office so much. I'm like, well, I'll use the living room when you're not living in it. Yeah.
00:03:36
Speaker
So it'll be good. But it is a lot. There's a lot we're trying to do this weekend. Because, you know, all that in addition to his, you know, two full work shifts. And so, yeah.
Anahata's Purpose: Preparations and Teaching
00:03:50
Speaker
I am glad, though, that he will be working because then it'll force me to focus on a podcast editing, and B, finalizing my workshop for Anahata's Purpose 2025. Oh my god.
00:04:15
Speaker
is the weirdest noise i've ever heard you make and that's saying something
00:04:24
Speaker
oh oh my god molly's on the edge i'm honest i'm i'm mostly anxious because i haven't finalized everything ah um i'm not anxious in particular about actually giving the workshop i just want to feel secure in what i want to talk about for sure yeah so yay yep so are you still planning on wearing that outfit you were talking about maybe probably most likely
00:05:04
Speaker
oh my goodness listen support me i'll try honestly support me
00:05:15
Speaker
me honestly but for real though if there's anywhere in the world and in my life that i could wear it it would be at anahata's purpose so i say why the fuck not yeah Yeah.
00:05:31
Speaker
You're going to wear anything fun. Yeah, actually. um I just found a couple of things that I was going to be looking for to get ready to take. Um, but I, I just found my on a hottest purpose slash which bitch amateur hour sweatshirt that I purchased prior to 2023. Ooh. And,
00:05:54
Speaker
o and never wore ah not worn it because like it was hot as balls that year when we went yeah and it's gonna be not probably cold but crispy yeah it'll be chilly in the mornings for sure yeah in the evenings yep and definitely so there's nothing better is nothing better there is nothing better vibe vibe wise than being cozy in a sweatshirt by a campfire uh i concur good glad we're in agreement
00:06:36
Speaker
oh my god yeah were you about to say will i be cold oh i don't know i don't think so in that in that outfit oh i think i thought about it but i didn't i wasn't about to say it Okay, I thought you were about to say it.
00:06:52
Speaker
And my answer is no. right am i ever cold no besides i do have like you know i'm i'll bring sweatshirts and sweaters and what have you whatever i need i mean you just throw a cloak on over that bitch before you know like when you're walking walking to and to and fro to and fro but um yeah buildings yeah the first class is technically outdoors but on the porch um
00:07:23
Speaker
oh my and really yeah um the one on is it friday morning yeah friday morning i'm teaching friday morning and sunday morning oh i thought it was a thursday morning for you okay friday there's there's no actual classes really happening thursday morning they all start like noontime ish okay because people are you know arriving and settling in okay that makes sense so friday morning and sunday morning cool yeah um But outside. Holy cow.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, outside, but like under the cover of the porch of the main building. I did a thing. What'd you I looked at the weather forecast as far out as it would go.
00:08:10
Speaker
huh And like the week and weekend. In Darlington? Yes. Okay. The week and weekend before ap The mornings are going to be like 48 degrees.
00:08:24
Speaker
listen You're going to be a titbit nipply. You're going to be a titbit nipply. It won't even be noticeable probably based on the design.
00:08:39
Speaker
you know You're still going to do it even if it's that cold. well so the The other thing is on Sunday morning my class is in the gym. Okay. Or at at least it said gymnasium, um I think. Okay.
00:08:52
Speaker
And so I don't know exactly where that is, but it's assumed that it is fully indoors. Sure, for sure. So if I need to reserve the outfit for an indoor class, you might need to do that. I might do that.
00:09:05
Speaker
but But let's just be real. I'm a furnace. I'm a furnace. Oh my god. You've got way more balls than me for sure. Yeah.
00:09:21
Speaker
Come to Anahata's Purpose if you want to see my nipples.
Personal Expressions and Identity Online
00:09:24
Speaker
um Oh, Lordy. Oh, my God. Oh, Lordy.
00:09:33
Speaker
And on that note. Oh, they're pierced. They are pierced. They're so hot.
00:09:45
Speaker
my God. Oh, my God. I'm such freak. I know. Why do you think that is?
00:09:53
Speaker
I don't know, because I haven't been like that in ages, so. But you were. I'm not a freak anymore. Once upon a time. ah don't know.
00:10:05
Speaker
I got double freak genes. Yeah, you do. I do. So maybe I'll never grow out of it. Maybe not. Maybe I'll just be a slutty old lady. Yeah.
00:10:18
Speaker
out oh my god oh
00:10:25
Speaker
this I can't believe this is a fucking public platform.
00:10:32
Speaker
Slutty old hag. That's me. Oh lord. oh my god. oh You might find a new boyfriend. You never know.
00:10:47
Speaker
Honestly? or girlfriend. I mean, you know. Either. You know i I love it either way. oh my god i i love that freaking meme that you sent and i told you i sent it to wait which one um i send so many memes all time oh yeah both ways and then it was like the narrator was like in fact she did not go anywhere or something like that she doesn't like to leave the house exactly oh my god
00:11:22
Speaker
ah That one is so funny. Because the friend I told you I sent it to, she's also bisexual. Hell yeah. So she laughed. Another one of my favorite bisexual memes is um it just simply says, i swing both ways.
00:11:40
Speaker
violently with a bat come at me motherfucker
00:11:46
Speaker
ah's and that's me to a t frankly it's like i will fuck you no matter your gender and i'll beat you up no matter i fuck you up fuck you and fuck you up
00:12:01
Speaker
Hashtag Aries rising. Oh, oh God. Oh, my God. um, the other weekend when I was in Syracuse with some of our AP friends. Yeah.
00:12:14
Speaker
Um, and I mentioned that I'm teaching. um they were talking about, uh, you know, a couple of them can't make it this year AP.
00:12:25
Speaker
And so for the ones that could, they were just like, basically, they were saying like, Can I FaceTime you during her class so I can watch the class? ah It made me really happy.
00:12:39
Speaker
oh yeah I feel so supported. Everybody so kind and like is so excited to go to the class and like,
00:12:53
Speaker
and I just feel so supported. You should. I know. Cause you are. blessed. And all the more reason to feel confident to wear what I want to wear.
00:13:05
Speaker
Be like people who love me are coming to this class. So I'm going to just make sure I feel like a badass bitch. Hell yeah.
00:13:15
Speaker
Hell yeah. is Yes. i don't know. It's, it it feels as important to me as the messages that I'm going to try to get across, you know,
00:13:26
Speaker
Like that like fearless self-expression. Yeah. I totally get that. Totally get that. Yeah.
00:13:38
Speaker
So we'll see.
00:13:43
Speaker
We shall see.
Community Events and Emotional Reactions
00:13:45
Speaker
Did you hear the you you heard the news? Which Yeah, you heard the news last weekend. There was a shooting at the LDS church in a city near where I live.
00:13:58
Speaker
I did not actually open the article. But I saw the title and I got the gist. Yeah. Crazy. um How are you feeling about it?
00:14:12
Speaker
Oh, I mean, no different than any other shooting. Yeah. it's Even though it literally and figuratively hits somewhat close to home. Right. I mean, yeah there's been shootings around here, you know, like yeah in the last handful of years or so.
00:14:30
Speaker
Um, like the Oxford high school shooting, which was national news, probably actually world news. I don't even know, but like, and, uh,
00:14:42
Speaker
I don't know. There might be there might be other ones. i just I just can't remember anything anymore.
00:14:49
Speaker
And that one was, you know, this one was just like a little bit weird because it's like a Mormon church. Like, why? you know, I don't think they've even come up with a connection as to like why this dude targeted that church. Like it maybe it was a random thing. Yeah.
00:15:06
Speaker
I mean, like. It happened to be Mormon, but. i i don't know mormons have gotten targeted not nearly as much as they like to claim but yeah you know they they have been in the past and in the recent past as well so and it was super weird that the prophet died like the same night before yeah it's so weird yeah but um but i will say i mean honestly like after you sent me both of those in succession and i the way i responded is how i continue to feel
00:15:47
Speaker
Just sort of like neutral. Yeah. It's like, wow, big day for Mormonism. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Fuck. I mean, obviously shootings are terrible and anybody dying is terrible, but i don't know. It's, it's, it's really hard not to feel numb.
00:16:12
Speaker
Right. About it. yeah indifferent because it's just like the state of the world right now the state of the world but also the way that this country experiences shootings like this on a practically weekly basis exactly like yep oh yeah and you want to hear the one of the crazy things too is later on that day um my husband was sitting here in his office watching the news and he still, he has an antenna to get like the local news.
00:16:45
Speaker
Oh. And, um, I heard, I heard I was in the bedroom next door. I like, heard him make a weird reaction. And I was like, what, what's going on? And I kind of, kind of got off the bed quick. And he was like, the, the guy, the, the reporter was in front of the church building doing the news, like report from in front of the building.
00:17:09
Speaker
And some guy runs over and starts yelling, get the fuck out of here. Turn that fucking camera off. And it's live. it's local live news that is in the middle of the day that anybody could have heard. Like, you know, their kids could have been in the room listening to that in front of the Mormon church. Yeah.
00:17:27
Speaker
Oh, wow. But it was like some jerk just runs over there and starts cussing and it's live news. It's like, you know what i mean? They can't edit that out. So it was like heard in homes across, you know, the state probably, or like part of the state.
00:17:44
Speaker
Wow. And, And that you know now that we don't have cable or whatever, you know kind of like ah a box where we can manipulate and rewind to watch stuff, I couldn't you know couldn it see what he what he saw. But it was like yeah yeah it was shocking to hear about nonetheless.
Religious Deconstruction and YouTube Influences
00:18:03
Speaker
It's like, who in the hell are these people? Like, you know, they're basically trying to tell the media they're not allowed to, like, be out and report on news like You know who it is. But like, who was it like Mormons? Just some MAGA asshole.
00:18:18
Speaker
Probably. What what right does he have? Exactly. knows who that guy was? But he was like, turn that fucking camera off. You can't fucking record here or whatever. It was like, i don't know. It was just acting like he had some kind of authority. It's like, no, she's you're on a public sidewalk.
00:18:35
Speaker
You have the right to record and and record and report news. Yeah. And especially any any person has a right to record anything on their own phone. Yeah. In public spaces. Exactly.
00:18:47
Speaker
So I don't know who the hell that guy was and but who he thought he was why he thought he had the right to do that, but that was just also fucked up. Weird. Fucked up, you know?
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah. And it's probably, you probably could find it on YouTube. I haven't tried to look for it, but I'll bet you it's on there. Yeah. Maybe. Probably. Probably. oh Weird. It's because the top topic that we chose to talk about today kind of, you know, segues.
00:19:16
Speaker
Yeah, it does. it does indeed. We've got ah we got a little bit of a ah feel like all of our topics end up being somewhat...
00:19:27
Speaker
unique because we just go so far in every direction all the time but this one we're we're taking it a little bit back roots as it were yeah and uh digging them up exposing them who indecent exposure uh yeah and yeah So that topic is, we're just, we're going to dive into some, you know, like a deeper excavation of our Christian deconstruction processes.
00:20:12
Speaker
um It's been interesting. You know, I added this topic after watching the two videos on YouTube by Rhett and Link.
00:20:26
Speaker
um I told you about this at the time that i had like saved their deconstruction, like religious deconstruction videos to my, you know, watch later list a long time ago. And I finally was like, ah, I'm going to watch this. Let's see.
00:20:45
Speaker
See what they have to say. And it was interesting to hear them talk about their very entrenched, ah upbringings in Christianity particularly um i think it's Episcopal they were they're not raised in not Mormons they're like southern Christians but they referenced at least I think it's Rhett referenced Mormonism as like there being a vast difference between his religion that he was raised in
00:21:24
Speaker
And the kind of faith that Mormons cling to being so dramatically different and like Mormons not really even...
00:21:39
Speaker
seeming to have solid roots in like actual faith huh which was really interesting to hear about because i just i just had such a different experience like i had the same experience i understood what he meant when he expressed how Mormons just tend to be like, well, this is my faith and that's all I need. And I don't need any, you know, proof. I don't need any like deep exploration into doctrine to teach me or, you know, help me feel more secure in my beliefs. Like I just need my faith and I need nothing else.
00:22:19
Speaker
yeah And like, I am familiar with that line of thinking. obviously because that is how Mormons tend to do it. Yeah. But I also, ah was raised in an ah unusually devout a Mormon household.
00:22:39
Speaker
And in, I was raised in such a way that I didn't fully realize how unusually devout it was until very recently.
00:22:50
Speaker
ah hu I, So it's just been an interesting like thing to to chew on internally for me. Yeah.
00:23:02
Speaker
So, yeah. Did you have thoughts to bring up specifically about it? I mean, obviously you do, but like, um is there anything that, you know, immediately came up for you to think about, you know, talking about this? I guess.
00:23:21
Speaker
Yeah. I don't remember like, you know, a year ago or whatever when we first started to talk about this. Uh-huh. When we had our first episode about it or whatever. ah Yeah.
00:23:33
Speaker
If I had been... reading a whole lot of about mormonism in reddit yeah was i had to the reddit stuff back then because i don't remember before then was i oh years before then okay and you've been sending me mormon ex-mormon reddit stuff for literally years it doesn't feel like that long to me like it only feels like maybe a year or two at least two okay so at least two but like at least two but like definitely it's not just a recent thing i was just so you definitely yeah mean like you definitely talked about it in our first episode i'm fairly certain and i don't remember how in depth you got but i know that you at least did like outside of reddit you also did other research after i talked to you about like the um fallacies of the origins of the church
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. i I mean, every time I read somebody's post about their experience, I'm just like usually blown away by...
00:24:43
Speaker
like first of all how starkly different it is from my own experience like in terms of yeah what they experienced in church or how they experienced leaving the church in regards to their family's reactions and stuff like that like like they're you know they have a whole gaggle of family that are all in church and they all like put the heat on this person like you know put the pressure on about you know not leaving and they're doing the wrong thing or they're whatever Yeah. And I don't have family that's doing that to me, like pressuring and like, yeah, all that stuff.
00:25:18
Speaker
But, but then there's just so many weird things I've learned about the church since, you know, backing away. And I'm just like, what the hell kind of crazy shit?
00:25:33
Speaker
You know what i mean? And it's coming from, people who've been there for like years longer than me you know and it's just and it's so interesting to me to think about how like you know there was stuff that you learned about that you considered to be crazy shit when you had even gone through the temple yeah i mean there's yeah the temple experience is strange but like there's even more weird shit that i didn't know about you know um yeah dudes who had been you know high up
00:26:04
Speaker
in the church for like 50 years, you know, have way more knowledge of things than I do. And like, they had stories that I'm just like, Whoa, what the hell?
00:26:16
Speaker
You know? And I couldn't sit here and tell you what they are now, but yeah, it just was like, man, I didn't know like that. There's this belief that like, yeah, only the higher up people know about, you know, like it's just really weird.
00:26:30
Speaker
It's just weird. And then truly, um how they talk about paying tithing is literally just a pay to play you know yeah yeah it's like you can't get into the temple unless you pay tithing yeah you know it's like that is so fucked up because what if you've got somebody who's really poor but they have yeah a great life you know like been perfect people and deserve to be able to go right but yeah it's just messed up it's so messed up yeah
00:27:04
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And I don't know if if you're not a Mormon, you wouldn't know this, but like tithing is like supposed to be 10% of your income and it's documented. Like you fill out a little slip and they keep track of everything. And then at the end of the year, like you go through and have like your tithing settlement done or whatever they call it, where they like talk to you about what you've given if it's like you know if you've been consistent or bla bla blah blah blah basically just sort of reassess your worthiness for the temple based upon on what you've given for the year yeah and then they then they can give you like a statement that you can use for tax purposes or whatever after that you know but like i hardly was hardly ever was consistent with
00:27:54
Speaker
paying tithing but like i was just long enough to be able to get into the temple at some point um yeah but yeah that but that that just irks the crap out of me yeah and how rich the church is they don't need your money like i mean they got that way from getting your money they of course they want to maintain it but like yeah but it's it's like it's they don't need it it's literally hoarding wealth because what are they doing with it nothing nothing nothing it's just like it's just like scientology like where they're buying up these big beautiful buildings or they're building big beautiful buildings and they're standing there empty like not being used yeah they're fucking building them all yeah yeah like our that or a shit blew my mind yeah
00:28:44
Speaker
like where why what the hell like yeah why are you in business for like profit at anything you know i believe the mall in question is called city creek in salt lake uh salt lake city and um i've been there and it's pretty well but it makes me feel real weird when were you there oh it it opened while i was at byu Oh, okay. I thought it was a newer thing than that. it opened in like 2010, 2011. Okay.
00:29:18
Speaker
um And it, yeah, it was, it's cool. It's a nice mall. But it did, it made me feel real fucking weird.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah. It's just, it's fucking weird. So, yeah, you know, and I just want to say to anybody who would try to fall back on the argument of the church's humanitarian work fucking do your research yeah money spent on humanitarian work is like negligible compared to money spent on property investments and probably stocks like i haven't done you know a ton of looking into what exactly it is that they are doing with all this fucking wealth but i know it's not humanitarian work nope no definitely not they're definitely building a lot of temples yeah um
00:30:24
Speaker
Which, you know, those are huge, highly expensive buildings. Very...
00:30:34
Speaker
Great and spacious building, anyone? As they say. um Anyway. Yeah. yeah So... Yeah.
00:30:45
Speaker
So you, ah to that end, you know, just sort of retroactively had your mind blown, blown. What the fuck? Had your mind blown after already basically deciding you were done. Yeah, I think that, um you know, the stuff that you kind of presented me with.
00:31:12
Speaker
Mm hmm. was enough like you know reading the ces letter which i didn't even read like a tenth of it's a huge document so yeah i don't blame you um but there was enough in there that made me just be like what the hell and then like right you know the more the more conversations and posts that I've read or been a part of, you know, conversation I've been a part of in Reddit, yeah um the more it confirms like, you know, what a charlatan he was. But then yeah on top of it,
00:31:46
Speaker
what a pedophile like he was literally marrying 14 year old girls yeah and like also marrying women who were already married right and and sending their husbands off to battle to die sub mission on missions on missions and to battle to die yeah like fucking that's yeah fucking psychotic behavior and that his first wife was not cool with like any of it no poor fucking emma smith jesus Oh, my God. So, yeah, the the more crap I've learned, you know, about this stuff, the more I've just been like, wow. Yeah. We've all been just completely, you know.
00:32:28
Speaker
yeah Well, that information is like so well guarded within like general church knowledge like yeah what the church generally knows the population of the church i mean the members yeah yeah um i in particular with regards to emma smith like i remember being taught about her and how she like ended up like you know being an apostate in her later life and like after Joseph Smith had died and everything.
00:32:57
Speaker
And, you know, her just sort of being painted as this tragic, uh, story of even the wife of the prophet can be led astray. And like, it just boils my blood now to know what she actually was put through. hmm.
00:33:13
Speaker
and that obviously being the reason why she just was so disillusioned with it by the end yeah and i didn't like holy shit i don't even know like her story like her full story i don't know the details i just know like the gist of it because you know i i was never interested h i sat and i learned but like didn't really retain ah whole lot um which i feel infinitely grateful for yeah you know that none of it none of it s wormed its way into my psyche um in any significant way like i ah kind of i mean i i did not gloss over it but i gave like the cliff's notes version of the story of my like deconstruction
00:34:06
Speaker
in our first episode and i can't remember all the details that i did give yeah and i don't remember what i said about mine either right but i mean like for me having never been fully invested in the church made it you know that much easier to be able to leave but it was still not actually easy and it's mostly it was not easy if my family didn't care If my family had the attitude that like your family did, like it would have been the easiest thing in the world. I would have been like as a teenager, I probably would have decided to stop going to church.
00:34:45
Speaker
yeah Yeah. It's not like it's not like I tried to stop going as a teenager. i mean, I just know. No, I know. But I mean, like if I would have chosen to that early on in life.
00:34:57
Speaker
if I had a family that would have allowed for it, you know, i don't know if my family would have allowed for it. Had they known I was actively not interested, but I wasn't actively not interested. So right.
00:35:07
Speaker
I was still like basically, you know, in well, I mean like maybe your family is not the best comparison, but just like a family who doesn't care the way that my family did. Yeah.
00:35:19
Speaker
You know? Yeah. I like literally have no idea how my dad or my grandmother would have reacted I been like outspoken about not wanting to be in anymore. Yeah, well, probably not great because that's not how Mormons react.
00:35:37
Speaker
I mean, as a matter of fact, when I got with my husband, they were like, you need to get married sooner than later because, you know, we were living in sin.
00:35:50
Speaker
essentially he moved in with me and they were like you need to like get married now wait did they say that after you decided to get engaged yeah after we were engaged okay so like they're like because that's the thing is like done now but you weren't but they knew you weren't an active mormon right or an active really active really religious right religious person at all pressure about when we should marry that's so interesting because i mean i lived with my ex for well while we were still together it was only for like
00:36:21
Speaker
three almost three years um that i lived with him and never received any kind of pressure like that but it was mostly because we never expressed any interest in getting married hu yeah there was no engagement plans or any of that yeah so like maybe i don't know i don't know if that would have made a difference i think and at that point, probably. I mean, my mom wasn't thrilled with it. that but like Remember, I was like 35. I know. That's so fucking weird, man. i know. You lived with partners before. really. Maybe not like officially, officially, but like you you'd like
Family Dynamics and Pre-Marital Living
00:37:03
Speaker
cohabitated. had an eight and a half-ish year long relationship that i I was at his house a lot, but I never technically lived with him.
00:37:12
Speaker
Interesting. I bought my house in 1999. ninety ninety nine Yeah. And I was 23. And like, right I never really lived with I never had a boyfriend live in with me and I never lived with a boyfriend.
00:37:24
Speaker
So it was just the long term relationship that I was in. But we were never but you like stayed over a lot. Yeah, I was at his house almost every night. Yeah, for years, which is like, even if you didn't like officially move in, that's almost the same as cohabitating. Almost.
00:37:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So like in and for that long a time, I would I would consider it cohabitating even if you you know didn't like put your name on a lease or whatever um but like yeah like i don't know i i don't know yeah but it's that once the engagement happened it was like pressure pressure pressure do it now that's so interesting yeah so we didn't really have ah like a ton of time to plan a like really you know nice wedding or have things be the way we really wanted them to be
00:38:13
Speaker
um it was it was done quickly yeah yeah but oh well I'll be mostly free but like I mean you know except for me having to pay for like my wedding dress and the cake and like buy the decorations and the stuff you know like that but the church building we we used the church building and that was free yeah um yeah and then yeah my grandmother paid for our catering that was
00:38:46
Speaker
nice um i was gonna say like for all the that you have expressed that your wedding wasn't really what you wanted it to be um i personally think it was beautiful even though i didn't get to be there but i've obviously stalked the photos extensively so um i think you were stunning and it was a beautiful like i i mean for everything that i can recall off the top of my head like looked beautiful flowers like you know the tables everything like it it looked for for the standards of weddings that take place in a mormon church building it looked really i don't even know about like what what mormon weddings look like but not typically that exciting or cool yeah i had a um
00:39:45
Speaker
coworker friend who was good at flower arrangements and we went to this floral craft supply place that's very close to where I live and she helped me pick out all the you know they're all fake flowers yeah everything was fake um She helped me pick out all of the flowers and she put everything together, including my bouquet.
Weddings and Personal Preferences
00:40:14
Speaker
my my bouquet that I carried was fake. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Did you keep it? Yep. The centerpiece for our table, for the head table, was all fake.
00:40:25
Speaker
And they looked so good you wouldn't have known. she i would never have guessed, no. She did such a good job. That's awesome. Yeah, she was very, very creative and ah skilled, I should say, is a better word. Yeah.
00:40:40
Speaker
yeah yeah so that' i didn't really even have to pay her for that it was more or less my wedding gift from her and then um but yeah i just had to buy the supplies and stuff for all of that yeah yeah which wasn't really that big of a deal to be honest i don't remember it costing insane amounts of money with like fresh flowers on the other hand they're oh my god they're so fucking expensive god damn yeah yeah wow yeah my cake was so good my cake was so good because i'm very picky about that crap and like every wedding i go to if the cake ain't right it's just like the they went cheap you know they skimped yeah no i didn't i didn't skimp it was a smaller ish cake for enough for like 100 people but um
00:41:33
Speaker
It was the bomb. It was like we taste tested her stuff before we purchased and the icing was g primo. It wasn't that like grainy, weird, lardy tasting icing. It was very good, smooth buttercream icing that was just to die for. Give cream cheese icing or give me death.
00:41:55
Speaker
Yeah, it wasn't cream cheese. I would love cream. but That's what I would want is cream cheese. i would For all would that ive never I If I went back to do anything again over again i would say yeah I choose icing is awesome For all that I have never come close to even getting engaged, I have given a lot of thought to how I would do a wedding.
00:42:21
Speaker
Yeah. I never, and never was one of those people. I, think I spent time daydreaming about the kind of wedding dress I would like, but I didn't have one even close to what I daydreamed. Yeah.
00:42:35
Speaker
I know everybody expects me to get married in black. I may not though. Well, It wouldn't, it would never be white. Never. Never. never that ship has sailed yeah um but i i mean black is still like a very potent high potential option but um i honestly would love dress that's like champagne colored or even like a like a gold or bronze kind of vibe amazing
00:43:14
Speaker
And maybe even blood red. Ooh.
00:43:21
Speaker
Nice. We'll see. Depends. Depends on the design. Because I don't want to, you know, be... i I'm not thinking like, ah you know, Lydia Dietz.
00:43:32
Speaker
Yeah. Style. Like, no. It's... it's i I am a goth, but my approach to the goth aesthetic is a far more subtle one.
Kat Von D's Lifestyle Shift
00:43:48
Speaker
And so it's it's there, but it is not like kick you in the face obvious. don't do Don't do Kat Von D though. No, no. I did not like her wedding dress.
00:44:04
Speaker
I didn't like her wedding dress. i was not too impressed with her wedding overall, to be honest. Me neither. um The one thing I approved of was the antlers headdress thing.
00:44:17
Speaker
how that was cool. don't remember that. They were like two antlers that kind of pointed backwards a little bit. Was she wearing it? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, was her headdress, headpiece thing. Part of the veil?
00:44:30
Speaker
Yeah. I would want maybe antlers or maybe one of those, like a crown But the one that looks like a sun, like rays of the sun.
00:44:42
Speaker
oh Maybe. That's cool. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. We'll see. For some odd reason, i was thinking you were going to say something like um forest green dress.
00:44:58
Speaker
That would be, that will, if i have if I do get married at some point, that will be one of the like theme colors of the wedding. Like, not forest green, like, earthy, but, like, a richer, darker green.
00:45:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But not not a forest green wedding dress, no. Okay, so I just looked up the Kat Von D wedding pictures just to remember what her thing in her hair looked like. and i And it's not as, like, crazy looking as I remember, as I was, like, picturing while you were describing it.
00:45:33
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But in one of the shots, it almost in a couple of the shots, it almost looks like. the bride of Frankenstein that designed the way her hair is situated. i know. yeah Like antler goes in the same direction with the hair. yeah It almost looks like a white streak, but it's red. Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:53
Speaker
So it is like a little just, it's just not, don't know. But again, we've, we've talked about how she's really just sort of gone off from like what we have really loved about her. Yeah.
00:46:08
Speaker
So, Yeah. Yeah, I don't want to make this conversation go into like being all about her anymore either. but um No.
00:46:19
Speaker
But yeah, it's crazy to me that she's gotten rid of almost all of her tattoos at this point now, too. Just crazy. It makes me fucking sick.
00:46:31
Speaker
Anyway. It's crazy. anyway um and you're in you know i think you said something to me not that long ago but it was like she's basically like a trad wife now or whatever i know she's so like very very modest like she hardly shows any skin at all now i know yeah like she literally covers up from like neck to toe mm-hmm And it just it's just bizarre.
00:46:58
Speaker
It looks bizarre to me. how she yeah It makes me really uncomfortable. And it's her business. Yeah. It's her life. It is. But Jesus.
00:47:11
Speaker
um hu I'm just... I don't want to talk too much longer about wedding stuff, but I just sent you some dress examples from my Pinterest board. Okay.
00:47:24
Speaker
Hashtag white women.
00:47:27
Speaker
are these these are ones you've recently saved not recent like over the years but they've you know i like them still
00:47:38
Speaker
o that dark burgundy purpley kind of looking one yeah it's not even a dress though it's pants with a cape yeah but i would i would want like that color that vibe and then the headdress was one of the things that also drew me to it i love that i love yeah I do remember the black one with the gold around the skirt and the red velvety looking crushed or not crushed velvet but red. Yeah. you one Yeah.
00:48:05
Speaker
This one looks more like a nightgown. ah Yeah. That would, that would probably be more of like a getting ready vibe. Yeah. And this is cool as hell.
00:48:17
Speaker
Yeah, I wish there were more photos of that from the front. For sure. That's the only photo I have of that one is from the back. But like that's why I was like, okay, I would like a champagne or a you know golden look for that reason alone.
00:48:33
Speaker
So cool. Yeah. So I don't know if there's anything else like oh for to add. There's plenty that I wanted to say. Okay. but Not about her. Yeah.
00:48:46
Speaker
Not about Kat Von not about weddings, about our topic that we have deviated so far from now. um yeah yes oh like Like I had expressed earlier today and previously in who knows how many episodes now that I've mentioned, i was never very into the church. I was never very interested, never very invested emotionally or spiritually or Really didn't understand spirituality at all until long after I left the church.
00:49:21
Speaker
um
00:49:23
Speaker
But what I will say is that given that and being in the environment in the household, the type of, you know, devout level of family that i was a part of, I felt quite trapped, but I couldn't even believe really put a name to that feeling for most of my upbringing.
Faith Crisis and BYU Experiences
00:49:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:53
Speaker
It was when I was at BYU and the full reality of like, oh my God, ah adults actually believe this and everybody is actually invested.
00:50:06
Speaker
And this feels so far off from what feels correct to me that it was just like, it like launched me in the direction of like panic almost internal panic of just being like this cannot be how i have to spend the rest of my life like this cannot be ah hu i will die
00:50:34
Speaker
um It was so so bad. And like the first year of BYU, i kind of still slipped under the radar because so many of my close, close friends my freshman year were...
00:50:50
Speaker
You know, we were what we all live together in the dorms we were in the same ward. And so we you know, spent our time together and it was easy to just sort of stay distracted because of that.
00:51:09
Speaker
And it was after that, in my sophomore year at BYU, when I was still friends with the people that I was in the ward with, particularly my roommates, but it was not the same level of like closeness and it couldn't provide the kind the same kind of like distraction to keep me from realizing just how much I needed to not have the church in my life anymore.
00:51:41
Speaker
And so over the course of that year, i stopped going to Relief Society first. So like for anybody who is listening who is not a Mormon or never been a Mormon or is not familiar with the Mormon church in general, up until a few years ago, Mormon church services were always three hours long.
00:52:05
Speaker
They were always blocked out as the first hour was sacrament meeting, which was held in the chapel with everybody. The second hour is Sunday school.
00:52:17
Speaker
Yeah, similar to mass, but way less interesting. um um Way less like spiritual at all. Yeah. um And the second hour is Sunday school.
00:52:32
Speaker
And then the third hour was, um you know, gender-based meetings where um in I can't remember how it was for children, but like for young women and young men, it was like separate. It was the young women's hour, the young men's meeting hour. And then in adults, it's the um relief society, the women's and ah elders quorum for the men i think i remember the the but kids primary was like you had primary was co-ed yeah you had an hour of like small individual like small classrooms yeah the sunday school classes and then you had like where yeah all of the primary aged kids yeah up to up to age i think that was the third hour was primary was all of the kids together and everybody together yeah um
00:53:32
Speaker
but then starting at age 12 is when, um the young women and young men had separate, uh, classes or meetings for the last hour.
00:53:44
Speaker
um but, uh, Sunday school was always co-ed even i think in a, in adult classes yeah as well. Yeah. Um, yeah.
00:53:56
Speaker
So Relief Society was the first thing to drop off my ah priority list. And it was the last hour, so it was easy to just sort of like dip out after Sunday school.
00:54:09
Speaker
And Sunday school obviously was the next thing to drop off the list of priorities. And for a several months, like I would say the solidly the last half of my second year at b yu I was only going to sacrament meetings and sometimes not even going at all um and it was a big deal like it it when you're an active Mormon it's a big deal to stop going yeah
00:54:46
Speaker
um But like I was fortunate enough to have a roommate who was not too pushy. um That's cool.
00:54:59
Speaker
Fucking love you, Kristen. I know that. I don't know and You've said you listen. So hello. Surprise. ah love you. You're amazing. And i know, you know, but you're you've fucking saved my life that year. Yeah.
00:55:14
Speaker
But yeah, she was never too pushy to make me go. She was always encouraging. um But she understood i was in a really tough place. And like a lot of it, I felt like, you know, there was a blend of like mental health issues surfacing as well as, you know, what I later came to understand was a faith crisis.
00:55:36
Speaker
ah But during that year, during my sophomore year, in the time when I was tapering off time spent at church.
00:55:48
Speaker
Um, I was also introduced to um the young Mormon feminists Facebook group and also the Provo feminists Facebook group, which is run by the same person.
00:56:04
Speaker
arm but largely, different far more secular um and it was interesting because i found myself like i found myself awakening to the reality that i was very very unhappy in the church hu and very unhappy with the with the feeling ah feeling trapped like coming coming to the realization that i felt trapped yeah um and in the provo feminists facebook group i found articles being shared that were not
00:56:50
Speaker
anti-Mormon but were at least neutrally pointing out the ways in which the Mormon church fails people and it was articles and blog posts of that nature that really got their hooks in deep with me okay because i found myself I found myself for the first time being introduced to literally like non-biased ah reporting, so to speak, you know, even if it's blogs.
00:57:23
Speaker
Um, that is simply stating facts that I could see with my own eyes about how the church fails people when it comes to, um you know, young single mothers or women who have been assaulted or anybody who is, you know, not straight or anybody who's not white, you know, like the ways in which like historically and in the current day, which at the time, you know, was like 2012,
00:57:52
Speaker
And like, I found myself growing an enormous appetite for content of that sort because it was putting words to this dissatisfaction and this like disconnect that I had always felt.
00:58:11
Speaker
Finally, it was giving me a like a clear vision, a voice of like what that actually meant to me. And that is when I came to realize i don't want to be here anymore.
00:58:27
Speaker
I don't want to be a part of the church and I don't want to be at BYU. Right. And they they with, with these realizations and with all of this, all of these feelings that had been previously unvoiced coming to the surface came this profound relief Like I have expressed before how I consider myself to be clairsentient when I, you know, when considering any of the Claire's at all.
00:58:59
Speaker
But I think that in general, in my life, in like my intuition, in my inner like life path guide has always been heavily centered around feel. Mm-hmm.
00:59:15
Speaker
how i feel
00:59:18
Speaker
And this whole transition was so deeply guided by this feeling of relief.
00:59:31
Speaker
And I started, yeah. and And I started to look at, look at a version of my life, my future, that was not reliant upon the typical life path of a Mormon woman.
00:59:54
Speaker
Get married and have seven children and be a stay-at-home mom and, like, be perfect all the time you know,
01:00:04
Speaker
you know just be fucking silent and miserable. I could see no joy and a future like that. And I couldn't even see it even happening for me. So I could see no joy and a future where i continued to be single and not fulfill the role that was expected of me and feel like I was a failure. yeah And so I took the third path, which was leave the church and do what the fuck you want.
01:00:31
Speaker
Mm hmm.
01:00:34
Speaker
And not even leave the church and break all the rules because oh you don't have to worry about it anymore. But leave the church and be free. Yeah. and you know, I was still stuck in this little bit of like a cage of logic or, you know, indoctrination, really. Yeah.
01:00:56
Speaker
Where, you know, they like i i I have said this so many times, the church preaches the importance of free agency being god's greatest gift to humanity yeah and yet they also say you better make fucking make the right choice though like the right choice the choice that they think you should be making yeah the right choice is staying in the church and staying subservient yeah and i could it
01:01:28
Speaker
could not do it And so I just in literally so many of my realizations occurred while I was in like a depressive episode laying in bed, staring at the wall.
01:01:41
Speaker
But like I was laying in bed, staring at the wall and like just sort of untangled this logic mess in my head and came to the realization, okay, if the church really preaches,
01:02:01
Speaker
that God gave us free will, free agency, then I'm going to use it. I'm going to make that choice for myself. Yeah.
01:02:13
Speaker
and I fortunately at the time had very poor mental health excuses to fall back on to decide to drop out of BYU and get out of there because they wouldn't have let me graduate if I left the church while I was a student.
01:02:31
Speaker
So yeah i never, never had a chance of staying there. um I briefly considered going to Utah Valley University.
01:02:43
Speaker
transferring there because i could have you know stayed in the vicinity and continued my education at a relatively low cost but it was better that i didn't obviously yeah i get the hell out of utah yeah get the fuck out of utah oh my god oh um so i so i got out of utah and then and over the next year the year when i spent you know ah a calendar year well really ah school year academic year uh september to august um back in my hometown just sort of giving my life a reset and um applying to other schools it was during that time when
01:03:31
Speaker
i had the same kind of processing and realization of an understanding that like whatever christian god i had been taught existed was and utter lie um and it came in the form of finally caving and looking at uh information about what goes on in the mormon temples um I had sort of continued to like not think about it for you know after I decided to step away from the church but I like wasn't gonna fully like you know disaffiliate myself yet I was like what's your question did you ever do baptisms for the dead and with the youth
01:04:24
Speaker
I did. So you were in a temple, but like, right. But I never went through and got like my endowment or anything. Yeah. It's not like I didn't know shit about it. I just like, you know, it was always like, those are sacred ceremonies and we're not, we don't talk about the details, you know? And I just sort of like, I still, you know, maintained the sanctity internally.
01:04:51
Speaker
Like I was like, you know what? I have enough respect. to leave that alone. And then it was actually when i had the opportunity to meet up with the person who actually started the Mormon, Young Mormon Feminist and the Provo Feminist Facebook groups, who happened to be from near where I grew up.
01:05:12
Speaker
And she was home on Christmas break. And I think basically also leaving the church, um even though she was still at by BYU, but she was keeping it under wraps.
01:05:24
Speaker
crazy i don't remember you telling me before that you met her yeah well she wasn't really famous or anything she was just so she was actually younger than me by like two years a year maybe a year um but she yeah she just she happened to be fruit from where i was from you know or like nearby and we got together over it that like winter break at the end of 2012 into 2013 while she was home um for that winter break.
01:05:55
Speaker
And, you know, we just talked about it all. And, you know, I, I even said like, you know, I didn't need to look into like the historical weirdness or issues of the church to,
01:06:11
Speaker
know that I didn't want to be a part of it like I never wanted to be a part of it and I told her my story about you know everything that had freshly happened that year um and then i can't remember what exactly she had said but she did say she looked at me very like deliberately and she was like you should look up the temple ceremonies and I was like okay and she was like watch the videos even if you feel like you can and i was like hmm Not sure, but I'll take that under advisement. um
01:06:48
Speaker
And i gave it a couple days of just like thinking about it. And then finally kind of came to the realization that like I really couldn't bring myself to care anymore about like protecting secretness and sacredness.
01:07:02
Speaker
And that's not to say that I'm about to spill the beans about all the details, because to be honest, I haven't even looked at it like since. Yeah. Like don't remember all the details of It's readily available nowadays. Oh, it's so easy to find. Just fucking Google Mormon temple ceremonies script.
01:07:20
Speaker
If you don't want to watch the videos, um that's what I did. I read the script. I read the side by side script with of the Mormon temple ceremonies and the Masonic temple.
01:07:32
Speaker
Oh. And they were, like, practically identical. oh that's crazy. That in and of itself was enough for me to be like, you know what? This doesn't come from God. Right.
01:07:44
Speaker
And that that was, like, the first, not crack, but, like, that was the first thought that led to yet another... um
01:07:54
Speaker
five straight hours laying in bed, staring at the wall. Wow. And processing mentally just like, okay, I got to think about this. It was the most productive thinking I've ever done in my life.
01:08:10
Speaker
Honestly. um Where I just sort of came to the realization. I was just like, you know, the temple was almost like the one thing that I was holding out for a little bit. Or I was like, if that's the house of God, if that's like,
01:08:24
Speaker
the truth then um want to make sure but i still get to participate yeah and then finding out that it's like the furthest thing from the truth me was just i was like oh okay then fuck all of it you know yeah including fuck you god like you don't exist you know right yeah and like i was ah you know honestly it was a five hour span where i entered into it. I got in bed, um disinterested, you know, agnostic and got out of bed solidly atheist, but but like honest to God.
01:09:09
Speaker
Yeah. Um, yeah. So like after that, I was just like, you know what? No, I I'm good. I don't need it.
01:09:21
Speaker
I'm, I'm fine. And, you know, from there is when I over a long span of time started to look into paganism, nature worship and witchcraft. And, you know, here we are now.
01:09:33
Speaker
But like. like yeah like even while i was um first doing research and you know introductory learning into the concepts of witchcraft i was still very comfortably atheist yeah so yeah yeah it was just like it's
01:09:57
Speaker
Simultaneously deep and not that deep because there was so many intricacies to the deconstruction stories that Rhett and Link had to tell um for themselves.
Mormon Deconstruction: Personal Journeys
01:10:11
Speaker
And it never was that entangled for me. never i feel honestly it's and it's it's not that it's the case that way for um most s mormons because most mormons actually have like tons of like just cultural and social hang-ups yeah to uh to have to work through yeah um and i just sort of shed all of it right yeah so i consider myself very lucky
01:10:46
Speaker
So, yeah. Sorry, I'm yawning. You're good. um I was going to say, like, one of the other things that i have learned in more recent months or years or whatever is how you know the book of mormon basically was it was completely made up by joseph smith but like they can kind of even prove it because there's so many books from his time you know his time period that had very similar phraseology and like yeah like it came to pass yeah there's all yeah not just that but i guess there's like a lot more but don't remember i just can't remember all of it but yeah
01:11:33
Speaker
It was like, yeah, he was borrowing from like all these, you know, books of his day and yeah writing them into or maybe they were ones that had been been in existence for like 10 or 20 years prior to him writing but whatever.
01:11:47
Speaker
It was like you could draw direct correlations to like books that were already out. Yeah. At the time when he wrote the Book of Mormon. And so um it's all BS.
01:12:00
Speaker
And then and then all the other silly stuff that's, you know, supposedly in the Book of Mormon where they're just like, oh, yeah, horses weren't on the American continent. Yeah.
01:12:13
Speaker
yeah back then there were no horses on the american continent yeah there were pre this or that pre-european settlers colonizers um like yeah horses were not here and like other animals too i think yeah i can't remember which one specifically but i do know yeah yeah that that that he wrote wrote them into the book of mormon which was clearly false right yeah like historically speaking and that i think the ce i can't remember when exactly the ces letter was published but i know it was either around the time that i decided to leave or it was just after but like you know again i i didn't need it to help me decide to leave but like oh it was very gratifying to uh to read that stuff after the fact right
01:13:10
Speaker
Just be like, yep, I knew it. Yeah. Yeah. all that's in there. But like, because I didn't read the entire thing, I i get bits and pieces that people talk about in the reddits.
01:13:22
Speaker
So, yeah. And again, if anybody's ever interested, this is so easy to look up. Just look up fucking CES letter, or I think it's actually called, you could probably find it by searching CES letter, but I think the official name is the letter to a CES director.
01:13:36
Speaker
it's like and it's like a almost 200 page document if not longer um with in-depth exploration into all of the uh inconsistencies in the book of mormon itself in church history as it is uh taught to the general mormon public um and a lot of other stuff
01:14:07
Speaker
This guy was super thorough and decided to pose all of his questions in one thing. But then he kind of goes into answering his own questions and like saying like how he found, you know.
01:14:21
Speaker
the answers to this question or that question and like basically trying to get the church to respond to it like what you have to about this explain yourself you know and CES director who the letter was addressed to said thank you for sending this I will send a response as soon as I can and then never did right because you can't yeah you can't it's not possible without flat out lying Without, yeah, without like literally putting blinders on to the statements that are in the CES letter.
01:14:57
Speaker
Right. So, yeah. Yeah. It's full of very interesting points.
01:15:09
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But. Yeah. Yeah. So i I just got to a point where it was like, all these people who've done their research can't be wrong.
01:15:20
Speaker
yeah right and exactly what it boils down to you and like you know i never had like a bad experience in church you know per se but um there wasn't anything that was so awesome about it that was like forcing me to want to stay like you know yeah right I you know in my life being imperfect and like having my little
01:15:52
Speaker
whatever's you know what i mean yeah um i i kind of never felt like i fit in with mormon people anyway right um i never felt like i was gonna be accepted by a you know traditional mormon man a mormon sorry traditional mormon man in a mormon marriage situation like you know temple marriage and stuff like that i just never could see that happening for me so yeah and interestingly i kind of felt the same way even though i was deeper in it yeah and you were at byu and i was at byu but i think well that's the thing is i was at byu which like you know they talk about it like it's such an easy place to find a husband
01:16:42
Speaker
Right. You know, and yet like I the whole time I was at BYU never went on one single fucking date. Right. Never was asked. And I was, you know, it just sort of dawned on me. I was like, am not what Mormon men want.
01:16:59
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it's, you know, for all that I like, you know, wasn't necessarily a rule breaker and I wasn't like overtly like a whore or whatever at the time.
01:17:13
Speaker
um We aren't meek mild. Yeah, we're not meek and mild. And like, and was just like, there's something about my energy that does not fit right the mold i was probably a little too you know outcasty weird goofy you know i like to yeah act like fucking peewee herman and whatever i didn't but you know i liked to play the electric guitar yeah
01:17:46
Speaker
And like, you know, I'm talking like I was 14, 15, you know, way but like at BYU where I was like, you know, at my most potentially vulnerable to like end up trapped in a marriage with a Mormon man. yeah um I was also, you know, being more openly myself which you know meant i was the coolest person in the ward and yet nobody wanted a piece of it right so you know intimidated by your coolness
01:18:18
Speaker
oh oh god it's too cool for me yeah it was so and it was always so interesting to be like to to sort of get the vibe of like people generally didn't dislike me they liked me they thought i was cool but not right You know what's really weird?
01:18:37
Speaker
What? I look back and I'm like, you know, there was a guy that I was very interested in. the church? in Yeah, in my teen years. Like, I was very, I had a super duper crush on him. And, because he was different.
01:18:54
Speaker
At one point he had a Mohawk, you know, so he was a little, you know, he was a little on edgier side and But yeah but i would really you know I was very, very attracted to him and I thought he had a cool personality and all that crap.
Romantic Realizations and Youthful Misunderstandings
01:19:09
Speaker
And I never once felt like he ever would have given me the time of day. um and i and and then you know then I find out stuff later on in my life where one of the quote-unquote cool kids from my high school who was a year older than me, like...
01:19:31
Speaker
had a crush on me in high school and I never knew it until after high school. Yeah. And it was like, what the frick, dude? Like I could have been dating him in high school. Like I could have been, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
01:19:44
Speaker
One of the cooler guys that, you know, in my opinion was cooler. Maybe, maybe the majority of people there thought he was like just a geek, but whatever. Yeah. But more your type probably. Yeah, I mean, he was just more... he was just his own thing.
01:20:00
Speaker
Yeah. and Which is what you and I tend to be interested in. Right. Yeah. And then I find out, you know... that he had had had a crush on me in high school he ended up hanging out for a couple of weeks and having sex a couple of times like when I was you know 21 22 probably like yeah just before I bought this house or whatever and I never thought even while we were hanging out that he was serious about me I thought we were just having a fling like wow a hangout
01:20:35
Speaker
Yeah. Like, session and, you know, in a while. Friends with Benevitz kind of thing. Yeah. And then, and then I never, like, it's not like he ever said, you know, like, I really like you or I want you to be my girlfriend or like, let's be exclusive or any of that. There was no conversation being had like that at all. So I just yeah absolutely never thought he was that into me, like, in a deep way.
01:21:00
Speaker
And apparently he was because... a few years after that he was just like i don't understand whatever happened and like why we didn't you know why you didn't keep talking to me or this or that and i was just like i don't know i didn't think there was anything serious he literally didn't express any like any seriousness about you yeah right well i don't like read minds you know yeah none of us do jesus siding. Potato siding. we want to see the potato?
01:21:31
Speaker
Let's see the potato. Then I have to try and reach down and get her. It's always okay in this tight space. Come here baby. Come here. Oh I miss you.
01:21:42
Speaker
miss you. It's the potato. the potato. potato siding. oh my goodness.
01:21:52
Speaker
Oh. Look at her little face. buffie Her little blueberry muffin face. Oh my God. Anyway, it just made me think back to like, you know, in church. I wonder if he actually was interested in me, but was too like, you know,
01:22:15
Speaker
Much of a pussy. Anything or act on it. you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. Like, growing up, that's the thing about growing up.
01:22:26
Speaker
You learn a whole lot about, you know, yeah ah the other gender, if that's what you're into. um And really, you learn a whole lot about, like, human nature as as a whole.
01:22:40
Speaker
And, like, you know, how... i mean, like, Jim and I were talking about this literally just, like, last night, actually. How, like, was telling him about this kid that used to, like, smack my head yeah like like just the back of the top of my head not like anything hard but just like enough to be annoying um in gym class freshman year of high school and like he was this british kid who was honestly actually really obnoxious in general but um you know when i told jim about this he was like did he like you and i was like you know what he might have
01:23:21
Speaker
14 year old boys are stupid like that you know it's just like in my head he was just being a dumbass right being like bully but like you know that's the thing like And it's not to say that we should be teaching our children like, oh, if a kid is like hitting you, that means they like you. That's not at all okay. Right. um But like, you know, with how stupid everybody behaves when they like someone, like you would see their behavior and never assume that they like you. Right.
01:23:54
Speaker
Yeah. Exactly. Because it was like he he almost purposely avoided me. Mm-hmm. you know what I'm saying yeah it was weird it was like yeah what the hell like why don't you ever talk to me yeah oh my god the um the first like official boyfriend I ever had was a guy that I knew all through like middle school and high school but we didn't date until we dated long distance while I was a freshman at buu and then we dated again
01:24:25
Speaker
the year after I, like during the year after I dropped out of BYU and I moved back home to my hometown where he had always been living. um And he talked about like always liking me, but like never feeling like he could say anything.
01:24:44
Speaker
And like, I don't think there was any, like, you know, I, one would assume maybe he felt like, Oh, she's Mormon. She can't date anyone who's not Mormon or whatever. but don't think that was the case with him. Um, and I just sort of like, I never particularly had a crush on him, but I always thought like he was chill and cool.
01:25:03
Speaker
I probably would have gone out with him if he had asked me, maybe, i don't know, maybe I would have been too scared, but like, you know, the fact that we like dated,
01:25:16
Speaker
only after years of like being in the same grade for like you know six years at the same school um it was just so odd you know and it obviously it didn't work out with him but like it was just sort of like i would never have known that he liked me or looked at me like oh she's so pretty or whatever like never would have known yeah And it I don't think it was just my obliviousness. I think it's just like really hard to like understand how you're very clearly not expressing interest in a person that you think you're expressing interest in. Yeah.
01:25:53
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. So. Crazy shit. Yeah. But yeah, besides him, i I feel like no normal Mormon person would have ever been interested in me.
01:26:08
Speaker
Yeah. so I just kind of never had hope for it. And yeah then i you know, I was in my teen, in my later teens, I was always dating guys from school that were not Mormon because it wasn't like there was a lot of Mormons in my area and all.
01:26:24
Speaker
So it was just like white high school boyfriends and whatnots that were whatever random religion. Right. Right. And ever since then, yeah, i never dated a Mormon person.
01:26:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um There was a couple people, a couple Mormon guys that i did see myself being with or could have if we had ever given it a chance and people who I knew like liked me as a person.
01:26:55
Speaker
And I don't think I ever really understood why they couldn't see me as more than just a cool person. Who's a friend, you know, but obviously, you know, now having an actual understanding of spirituality,
01:27:16
Speaker
And the way that like life ah has ah path and what you do and where you go on that path is not necessarily predestined, but you end up where you go for a particular reason.
Impact of Church Departure on Relationships
01:27:32
Speaker
Right. and everybody's path is different.
01:27:36
Speaker
Yeah. And if I had ended up with either of those guys that I could have seen myself with, I would, I would not be where I am today for sure.
01:27:47
Speaker
And I don't think I would be nearly as happy and okay. Right. Even with how like they're good people and i and neither of them are still in the church. Neither of them?
01:27:58
Speaker
Neither of them, no. Yeah. Neither of them are still in the church. And, uh, I still consider both of them friends, but like, yeah, it's for the best that i did not end up with either of them. Right. Right.
01:28:11
Speaker
And so I, I, even though, you know, I still have my moments because I'm always that like stupid fucking heart sick, like just like, love me. Like, like I have those moments of just like, man, why didn't work out?
01:28:25
Speaker
But, uh, yeah. Um, even still like it's for the best. Yeah. Yeah.
01:28:36
Speaker
And you know, not to mention, If we had both been stuck in Mormon marriages with kids right and were unhappy, right not easy to get out of a marriage. you know no it's not.
01:28:53
Speaker
It's not easy in general and especially not easy with children. Yeah, especially not in a Mormon yeah you know yeah marriage as well because you got like... There's pressure to stay in.
01:29:05
Speaker
Pressure to stay. From your family, from your church community, from your leadership. Yeah. um And the whole thing about yeah getting married in the temple and like the one spouse that still believes getting left, you know, reeling because, and you know, essentially their spouse has just ruined their life because they're no longer...
01:29:33
Speaker
Yeah, like married in this, you know, celestial going to the session celestial kingdom because their spouse is no longer in church. and but Yeah, it it becomes very much like a you did this to me type of thing. Yeah, you ruined my life or my yeah my future. And yeah, you know.
01:29:49
Speaker
in eternity because i feel eternity so it's yeah huge yeah i've um in the you know ex-mormon journey stories that i have read or watched if they've taught you know done youtube videos and stuff like that um for the most part i've seen it be the case that when one spouse leaves the other spouse finds reason to question the church also and does their own research and then also decides to leave
01:30:30
Speaker
And ultimately that saves the marriage. um Yeah. i But sometimes it shouldn't because sometimes you're not meant to be with that person. You just ended up with them because of pressure in the church. Right. right You know.
01:30:43
Speaker
Yeah. I haven't seen a lot of stories like that on Reddit, but I have seen some like that on um YouTube because they document their journeys together leaving. yeah But Reddit stories are very different because yeah you get people who are like,
01:31:00
Speaker
You know, my spouse is treating me like, you know, a pariah and like, yeah, you get people like actively in the middle of it. Usually the YouTube videos are of people who are out the other end of it. Right.
01:31:12
Speaker
um And sometimes, you know, sometimes it did break their marriage. Yeah, and that that's the thing. that the The ones who are leaving the church are so heartbroken because their marriages are actually really good, but yeah because they have chosen to leave the church, the spouse can't handle it and it ends up destroying their marriage.
01:31:33
Speaker
It's so sad. It's so heartbreaking because they're like, we're really happy. We have a really good life together. you know we have you know great you know how you know all the things all the things you could possibly want you know in your life is everything was like basically perfect except for all of a sudden the one person is like questioning their religion and the other spouse cannot handle it it's just it's so sad it is so sad it's just like they're so they're so entrenched and ingrained in it that it's like they can't handle the thought of like
01:32:13
Speaker
the person you married is questioning. Yeah. It's too much for their brain. It's so sad. Yeah. And I would like to believe that if I had gotten married to not just the people that I had, you know, thought I would go that I, that i could work out with, but anybody within the Mormon church, like that, I would have chosen somebody who would not,
01:32:43
Speaker
be so shallow and so, um, feeble. Yeah. Honestly, we I don't, it feels cruel to use that word.
01:32:57
Speaker
Yeah. And yet it's accurate.
01:33:01
Speaker
Yeah. I, I, I'd like to believe that I would have ended up with somebody with a little, ah stronger of, uh,
01:33:13
Speaker
not will, but like stronger resilience resilience. Yeah. Like higher intelligence. Um, you know, somebody who, somebody who, if they wanted to marry me, and meant that they,
01:33:31
Speaker
trust me and my own intuition that perhaps in that case they would have realized oh if molly is questioning then i have reason to question also yeah um but you know you can never be too sure and i like i said i'm just glad that things have turned out the way that they did yeah yeah so
01:34:02
Speaker
Well, I think that we need to wrap it up. Yeah. Any final thoughts or? no that pretty much it? I think we nailed it. Yeah, I think so too.
01:34:15
Speaker
Look at this little baby making my pillow, my boob into a pillow. She's got a little head resting on my boob. Sweet little potato. Her little nose is near my armpit.
01:34:27
Speaker
She'd be in a sousage. Oh. Sweet girl. know. Yeah. Well, it is getting late. Yes, go your grocery run.
01:34:40
Speaker
or whatever you gotta do. You gotta do a very, very quick grocery run and then go right to bed. um Yeah. But it's been a good evening. A good discussion.
01:34:54
Speaker
I love it. yeah I'm glad we did this. um yeah Thank you to the listeners. Thank you for being here. Thank you for joining us and supporting us.
01:35:09
Speaker
If you'd like to further support us, you can do so on Patreon. Financially. What is that URL, Christina? Patreon.com slash
01:35:21
Speaker
patreon dot com slash Soulpod the podcast at, the I don't know, something. Soulpod the podcast and nothing after that.
01:35:34
Speaker
um Yeah. And you can send us a mail of the electronic variety. Soulpod the podcast
01:35:51
Speaker
That's our jingle, I guess. um like I would say something different every single time. I never know how it's going to come out until it's already out. I'm like, okay, I guess that works.
01:36:02
Speaker
I mean, it yeah, you haven't failed yet, so I'm good. I'm good with it. um me and uh and we also have an instagram where we have photos of ourselves and our lives kind of and ah any particular goings on of whatever we're talking about usually at the current time uh it's pretty soon i'm pretty sure gonna be posting a bunch of photos of anahata's purpose oh yes
01:36:37
Speaker
All right. Well, I'm going to end this and we're going to say good night and thank you. and we love you.