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72. The F Word
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Ruth Gater Binsberg.
Jim joins Molly this week to kick off 2026 with a discussion about feminism - what it means to us, how we came to identify with it, and the importance of male allies. Let’s just be real, it’s simply common sense.
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Hosts: Christina Bell & Molly Wilde
Music: The Confrontation, by Jonathan Boyle, licensed from Premium Beats by Shutterstock
Editing: Molly Wilde
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Transcript
Understanding Astrological Signs
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm glad I'm an Aquarius moon because I liked Aquariuses. ah but But even I didn't know what it meant, but I thought it was good. okay But I don't know. Leo's weird. I didn't expect to be a Leo.
00:00:37
Speaker
Rising. Rising? Rising, yeah. Yeah. that's That's interesting, actually. um Because of the fact that like I experienced kind of the same thing.
00:00:50
Speaker
Actually... in reaction to my Leo placement. Because I didn't understand my Leo moon. I, like, knew what my big three were before I understood what an event meant.
00:01:04
Speaker
But, like, the Leo moon never made sense to me. Because I always felt just so, like... Leo moons are supposed to be, like Like, I don't know. Like, I mean, again, i think it was because I didn't understand what a moon placement was supposed to be and how Leo would express in it.
00:01:23
Speaker
But like, it's supposed to be so big and like excited to have like, you know, the spotlight and whatever. And I'm just like, I don't want that. Never, never, never. She says on her podcast. Growing up, specifically.
00:01:37
Speaker
and then I learned that I had my Chiron in Leo, which is the, like, deep karmic wounds. And I'm like, oh, that's why. i don't know. My Leo doesn't want the spotlight because it's deeply wounded.
00:01:50
Speaker
um Yeah. But it also does. The healed Leo does. You know?
00:02:02
Speaker
Like, not that I should, like, get used to it not that I should um aspire to want the spotlight all the time but that like I should aspire to feeling comfortable having it and feeling safe and okay with it you know Whereas like, I mean, the other thing too, is that rising is something that I think is hardest for everybody to understand about themselves because it's how other people perceive you and how others perceive you is oftentimes in my experience, dramatically different than how you understand yourself or how you think you're presenting. you know So Leo rising for you, like Leo rising is much more of it rather than like a big burst of sunlight the way that like Leo's literal Leo suns are like Leo rising is like that.
00:02:59
Speaker
um effervescent glow that almost is like regal and like it's in the way you like carry yourself and in the way that like you it's it's in this like internal confidence that is very attractive to a lot of people that I can't attest to but it is funny because like in high school my like best friend Mike was like, he is such a Leo son and he yeah he is a Leo son. And he was like so such, we were both like clowny goofballs together. Right.
00:03:37
Speaker
And like, we're like not afraid to be the center of attention or like, you know, make a giant prank on like the class or the, yeah but like, i was very much his sidekick, you know? Yeah.
00:03:50
Speaker
And um yeah, like he was the star, but you still had this like gravity to you. i would imagine. Yeah, I don't know. I mean... Seemingly. i From the outside, again. Like, this is how, like, people perceive you is what the rising sign means. Yeah. You know?
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, like, with my Aries rising, like, I never understood how I came across, um and this is why I know this about rising signs in general, is that, like, people...
00:04:24
Speaker
have been and sometimes still are extremely intimidated by me and i like couldn't understand it and I was called a bitch in high school um and I didn't get it because I was just this quiet person that didn't bother anybody but you know it's the energy that I was giving off that i you know understand now to be ah at least partially attributed to Aries rising I don't get why you don't put off what you are.
00:04:57
Speaker
Well, ah yeah, I don't know. like what I think that you do in part, but it depends who you're with and who who you feel safest with. And by you are, I mean your sun.
00:05:09
Speaker
Right. But also, your moon is a part of who you are. And your Mars and your Venus. So sun is like a summary? the sun Yeah, the sun is like a... like a Yeah, a summary is a good...
00:05:24
Speaker
like a distillation a distillation um this is gross oh i need a new vape oh we'll get one in the morning oh yeah like i mean each placement in each of our charts is a different aspect of who we are and each like brings a certain energy a certain personality to the table and it's all valid you know
00:05:55
Speaker
So, yeah. Anyway, good talk. Okay. needs come and That's a wrap. No, no, no, no.
Influence of Dreams and Aging Reflections
00:06:05
Speaker
Didn't realize that we were going to get into astrology tonight.
00:06:09
Speaker
I was going to tell you that um while I was hanging out waiting for you to finish working, decided made the potentially...
00:06:23
Speaker
fatal mistake not fatal mistake i don't know dangerous mistake of watching the movie inception for the first time in a long just now we yeah like before coming to pick you up well the problem is that i fell asleep during it
00:06:44
Speaker
so i woke up and was just like oh no what is reality he I had a dream the other night that I was explaining my dreams to my sister.
00:06:57
Speaker
and Excuse me. Which is pretty inception. I didn't know I could have my dream self could have dreams. Yeah, yeah. It totally can. And sometimes it's hard to know when you're actually dreaming.
00:07:13
Speaker
i don't know. It was fucking weird. I loved that movie. I saw it like four times in theaters. um But then I don't think I've seen it since like since I was ah beu probably at the most recent.
00:07:28
Speaker
So that's a long time. I haven't seen it in a long time. Have you have you seen inter Interstellar? Oh yeah. I love Interstellar. I haven't seen that since theaters, I don't think. Oh, that one's so good. I think I actually own it on Prime.
00:07:39
Speaker
of um But yeah. But anyway, um with that weird a lack of reality, dream inception mindset in mind, we're talking about feminism today.
00:07:57
Speaker
Yes. And I'm nervous. Why? Because of what you said. Who knows what I said? No one. Except no one. Jim is a jokey boy who likes to make jokes. Also, hello, Jim. You're back. I didn't even really acknowledge that. Christina. No, no, no. Again. i assume that's how she introduces herself. i mean, I know because I listened to the episodes.
00:08:23
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm Christina again. Welcome back to the show, Jim. Hello. How does it feel to be 39? His birthday was yesterday. um Divisible by three. Divisible by three.
00:08:42
Speaker
That's very nice and nice and even and round. 39. It's not. Yeah, I don't know. It's fine. It's basically. It's nice and clean cut. 39. If it's divisible by three.
00:08:55
Speaker
Abso-fucking-lutely it is. guess so. according to According to Tesla, it's a good number. Yeah, yeah. It's a good number. Sure. um Yeah, I guess you're only one day into it now, so.
00:09:09
Speaker
We'll see. Yeah. 364 to go. Until I'm 40. Oh my god. didn't even actually think about that. The countdown begins. didn't really think about that. I guess it's better than not being 40. Yeah, true.
00:09:24
Speaker
So we'll see if I make it to board Whatever that means. But yeah, and I don't know, like last time you were on the show, guess it was on one of the bonus episodes, but that was still like way back in September,
Cultural Critiques and Capitalism
00:09:39
Speaker
October. I it was October. It was Bashar. It was Bashar. Wait, when was that? That like November.
00:09:46
Speaker
Was it November? Yeah. Oh my God. What is time? The fourth dimension, maybe. It's weird. But yeah, welcome back. um yeah You've been doing good.
00:09:59
Speaker
I've been doing well. Superman does good. That was embarrassing for you.
00:10:06
Speaker
Don't you want be Superman, though? I can do good and well. Yeah. I'm doing good well. Mm-hmm. True. You are. and Adverbs.
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah. But, yeah, not too much shifted or is shifting in life right now. Not too much is different than before, but um at least oh not like I'm here to be like, give a whole progress report, but like.
00:10:35
Speaker
I got fired from the keyboard factory.
00:10:40
Speaker
and lost all my shifts.
00:10:50
Speaker
That smug fucking look on your face right now. With your mouth like all the way up to your eyeballs like a fucking Spongebob.
00:11:02
Speaker
God damn it. I love you. You're so fucking weird. oh Anyway. Yeah. That's a gift for all of you to enjoy. If only you could have seen in your face. But that was just for me.
00:11:19
Speaker
So what are we talking about? We're talking about feminism. is that what we were just talking about? um I introduced the subject, the topic, and then remembered that we didn't even acknowledge the fact that you're back on the podcast.
00:11:32
Speaker
Yes. um Back joining us again as Christina is once again needing... the run. She's on the run.
00:11:42
Speaker
She's not on the lam. Did I say that before? Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:11:48
Speaker
I think you said she was also incarcerated or incapacitated or both. um She is none of the above. She is just busy, just a mom.
00:12:00
Speaker
And the holiday week weeks are over the particularly oh tougher weeks for her to try to find time to record. So. but they're also over. They are. They are now over, but.
00:12:13
Speaker
Unless we count Martin Luther King Jr. Oh my god. not Nothing about that. What? There's Valentine's Day things everywhere in Walmart. The bastards.
00:12:26
Speaker
Capitalism. I hate holidays. You hate capitalism. I hate capitalism and holidays. You hate capitalism as it applies to holidays. And holidays.
00:12:37
Speaker
Okay. Fine. Fine! um yeah the holiday killer is a villain in a batman book called the long halloween and every holiday he kills someone else and it's cool it's a very good book is that you no don't do are you are you are you admitting i don't do the murders everything's just calendar man but it's not it's one of the other people in gotham this is all way over over my head right now but anyway go read the long halloween
Feminism and Personal Journeys
00:13:10
Speaker
By Batman. Yeah, do that, I guess. I trust Jim's recommendations. By Batman. Especially by Batman. He wrote it. Yeah. Wrote and illustrated. Robin is the artist, actually.
00:13:22
Speaker
Oh, yeah, of course. How could I have forgotten? And Alfred is the editor. Anyway. Superman superhero nerd that you are. Yeah. Super here. Yeah.
00:13:33
Speaker
Anyway, and what else? What else? I think that, I think that covers all of feminism. i think we're good. fe be um Yeah, no, it's, uh, something that like, I think Christina and I have not exactly like directly, we've not talked about it like as a topic for one single episode. But it like gets incorporated into the most of the stuff that we talk about just because it is like a part and natural part of our like views and like beliefs. And it informs a lot of our morals and ideals. um
00:14:11
Speaker
And the same could be said of you. Or not could be, but is said of you. As in, what you are a feminist. Oh, well.
00:14:24
Speaker
But particularly why I wanted to like talk to you about it. Um, not necessarily instead of Christina, but just like why it occurred me. You needed a man's opinion on this.
00:14:38
Speaker
I'll tell you about feminism. Oh my God. Let me tell you about it. Y'all ready to be a mansplained too?
00:14:46
Speaker
Oh my God. Um, Like the reason that like it occurred to me when thinking of what to discuss with you in particular is because of the fact that like you, I met you as a feminist, like you already were one or are you identified as one. Whereas I feel like Christina shifted more into that headspace as she got to know me and as she got to know like my own views and like came to understand that she, you know, felt the same way about pretty much everything.
00:15:21
Speaker
And so I've had like a front row seat to her journey, but I was thinking about the fact that I don't really know yours. I don't really know like where, cause I mean, obviously like I understand, or at least as far as I understand, you've just sort of always thought thought and felt this way but like was there a time when you realized like oh there's like a name for this ideology that you like identified with
00:15:56
Speaker
um yeah um no but i think there's an interview there's like a late night interview with george rr That I saw once that... had Known feminist. Well... Is he? i don't even know. I mean... This
00:16:16
Speaker
is my attempt at a joke. George R. R. Martin. um I assume most people know who that is, but in case you don't, he is the writer of the Game of Thrones books and the creator of the, you know, not the... I mean, obviously, the show is created...
00:16:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's an adaptation of his work, that series. And um he's on a late night show and it was, don't know, Fallon or Conan or whatever. And they're like, what? ah You write a lot of um strong female characters. Like, do you want to talk about that? And he had the best response. He was like, well, I've always considered women to be people.
00:16:56
Speaker
Which kind of like sums it up how I've always felt. It's not really... i don't know. it's not i don't I don't understand why it's even a fucking topic of conversation. I know. Which is why we're going to still try to proceed to talk about it. i mean know I mean, we're talking about it because it's already... It's unfortunately a topic of conversation. yeah you know yeah Because it has to be. yeah yeah um So I don't know. I didn't really... I don't know if something like... m i don't remember i don't remember when the term feminist feminist or feminism was defined for me but like when it like when it became when I first read it or heard it whatever and all it was was that like the idea that women are in like every way equal to men right yeah
00:17:42
Speaker
I was like, that's it? Like, why are we arguing? Why is that a nation? Why? What? what is yeah i mean, that's easy. Yes, of course. Like, I don't know. That's not a question in my mind. Right. I mean, I don't know why it's a question in anyone's like, isn't it? like Let alone in like worldwide yeah society. But like, even in it here, like isn't it it like all, I mean, granted, all men are created equal. But I think we it goes without saying that it's supposed to, I mean, it wasn't supposed to be. i don't know. Yeah.
00:18:10
Speaker
it should have been yeah all people are created equal yeah i think a lot of people can and should read that all men as all people but i don't know apparently when it was written that's not exactly what it meant so took a couple hundred years for that to happen and and still working on it i guess but yeah i don't know still fighting the fight and that's insane unfortunately oh yeah i don't know yeah so yeah that's all i uh I don't think there was some like, it was just always clear to me that that's how things not are, but need to be, should be. Yeah.
00:18:46
Speaker
Why would they not be? Right. And like, and you know what? It's like, when people are like, like, I don't know. I'm going to again, go through the framework of like superhero culture. But people are like nerds online are like, oh, protest Wonder Woman. I'm not seeing Captain Marvel. It's like, what? What? how are talking about? Okay, you just want to watch dudes fight? It's like, that's gay. Yeah, what are you doing? What? There's an awesome mural in Brooklyn where I, in a neighborhood where I lived once, and it was 20, I saw it in 2016, and it must have been pretty, or
00:19:26
Speaker
27 whatever whatever but it was the year that both black panther i think 2018 and wonder woman came out and it was like an awesome wonder woman and black panther right next to each other so it must have been done that year and i just like i remember because that was like that the message boards were like protest both these movies and they were like the best superhero movies ah of the year oh my god so people just like outing themselves as racist and sexist yeah like that's fucking insane Well, i yeah, I don't know. People are insane. And I just don't understand, like, where the... Where the rage coming from? Yeah. is
00:19:57
Speaker
These have been, like, yeah in publication in the like cultural zeitgeist for for as long, if not longer, than some of these other... Like, I don't know. Who cares? um i don't This isn't about superheroes. But yeah it's, um but you know, it's emblematic. Yeah.
00:20:10
Speaker
I, am like, I did... i briefly wanted to, like, talk about, like... how I came to feminism as like an ideology, but I also then had a thought that I wanted to make sure, not to forget to like pounce off of what you just were saying about like, you know, particularly about like how all these guys are like, not wanting to see these, you know, female superhero movies or shows or whatever. or, or just simply like not viewing women as people the way that you always have um but like backing up a little bit first um because i was raised in a distinctly conservative home yep and you kind of were
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah, but I was like like politically unaware. Yeah, but also like conservative to like a less extreme degree than like the Mormon family that I grew up in. Right, right. These politics did not like rise to like obvious levels until like the recent yeah you know unfortunate years. Yeah, um the last decade or so. yeah um But yeah, like for me, I grew up generally unaware because I was really only informed by like the you know family that i was surrounded by, which included my extended family, was pretty conservative as well.
00:21:37
Speaker
um And we're like, you know, basically my like Southern Methodist grandmother, i considered to be the most open-minded person in the family. of Like that kind of level of conservatism we're talking about, which extended into like cultural conservatism as in like women belong in the home.
00:22:01
Speaker
Yeah. Very, very cute face you just made. Not at what you were saying. just keep trying to hit a vape that's been dead for days. It tastes like burnt batteries. Oh my god.
00:22:13
Speaker
Maybe stop. Maybe, maybe like, let it let it go for now. Maybe. yeah yes Sorry, that was very distracting. Yeah, so, like, okay. culturally Culturally conservative. Like, you know, holding the viewpoint of, like,
00:22:32
Speaker
women ah are meant to be mothers and homemakers only. and like, you know, that like, it's all cute and nice if they want a career, but like that should only be a vehicle for them to like find a man and then get married and settle down and have like 700 children, you know, because Mormons, ah you know, and i was never really given the space to like understand that I didn't agree or like given the space to like question even internally for myself. Like, how do I actually feel about this? But like, I will say looking back, I know I always was a feminist for the way that I gravitated toward the stories and like,
00:23:21
Speaker
novels and like, you know, history and whatever of like, strong, powerful women, you know, doing amazing things. um And like, wanting to, you know, have that for myself wanting to like break down stereotypes and barriers for myself. But in a way that like, you know, if I, I mean, I tried to, I wanted to like learn to skateboard and I learned how to skateboard and my family my mother in particular, like fucking hated it. You know, she was so uncomfortable with it.
00:23:56
Speaker
She didn't like that. i wanted to learn how to play guitar. Like she very specifically said, like, that's like a boy's instrument. And I was just like, excuse me, you love Colby Calais. What's wrong with you?
00:24:10
Speaker
You know, ah like things like that, where, you know, I, it it became clear that if I wanted to live my life the way i wanted to on my own terms, I was going to, in every step along the way, be disappointing my family. And so I adjusted to that very quickly, which I think in turn is what made it so easy for me to leave the church ultimately. Cause I already had settled within myself. Like I'm already technically a disappointment to my family. So, you know, what, how much worse is this going to make it really? um But also like, ah you know, needing that space to be able to question like my actual beliefs and my actual and
00:25:03
Speaker
Like I got that when I went to college amazingly, even though it was at BYU, which is like not known for its forward thinking populace.
Challenges of Conservative Upbringing
00:25:15
Speaker
And, but it's still, you know, was, i met the right kinds of people.
00:25:22
Speaker
I gave the right impression to the right kinds of people because someone that I didn't even really know super well pegged me as someone who was progressive thinking of even like on a subconscious level and invited me to these Facebook groups, um, the young Mormon feminists and the young Provo feminists.
00:25:42
Speaker
um and in reading like blogs and articles and, um, whatever else was posted in these groups i came to understand like the like word for what it was i came to understand feminism and that i always had been one a feminist and that ultimately also that i didn't want to belong to a church who did everything in their power to control women's lives yeah
00:26:14
Speaker
So yeah, that's how I got to it. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And now the the thing with your parents, the area of mom and your family and whatever, though, is yeah there's a subtle difference, I think, between
00:26:32
Speaker
and opposite like and opposition to feminism and like got comfort with like stereotypical gender norms. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there was definitely, i mean, like my mother was very distinctly outwardly, vocally anti-intellectualist. I'm sure you're, like I'm sure. Yeah. Right. No, I know what your mom was. Like she treated feminism. Like it was a dirty word.
00:26:57
Speaker
a lot of people still do. Yeah. I know. Because they conjure pictures of like. Bra burning. Like bitchy Hillary and like. Right. Yeah. And things that like, you know, honestly, if it was, you know, I mean, never it's a trope now to say, but like.
00:27:11
Speaker
if you know it was a man doing these things that a woman is like doing it's like I don't know it's just crazy that like the things that a man could get away with that like The whole thing about like, you know, in a man, you'd call it assertive, but in a woman, you call it bossy, like that kind of shit, like where there's like the negative connotation to these traits that are, you know, praise and a man, that kind of stuff. Right. Yeah. Like, but that was, it was just, it was so not even subconscious or, or on like a, you know, subtle kind of level with my family. It was very outwardly like,
00:27:44
Speaker
we teach these things and we believe them that like women don't belong in any sort of position of power. Meanwhile, your mom is like, i don't know. I don't know what I should say right now, no no but like she is no stranger to the workforce. So like, what is that? What is she talking about? Yeah. And she, you know, her, her stance on that is that she did it so she could provide for me and my siblings because my dad died. I wonder if any other woman out there would ever be in a similar situation. I know. i know. Probably not.
00:28:18
Speaker
Denounce them all. Yeah. Well, you know, that's the other thing about conservatists like thinking conservative thinking is the like it only applies to you you in your own situation or if you, you know, a family like you get you get to be the exception, but you can't think outside of you and you can't think of outside of your like immediate circle to have empathy for like the populace at large, like single moms who have to work all across the country, for example. Like that's literally like a symptom of conservative thinking.
00:28:52
Speaker
um Yeah. So I mean, like, and it's just insane. Like, how many, what, like, I don't know, how many, like, you know, like, restaurants would someone like your mom go to that's, like, owned by a woman? Well, like, what clothes is she wearing that was designed by a woman? Like, what, what is who's her favorite actress? And that's the thing, she's like, she wasn't, she wouldn't even think about that kind of thing. it's You know, like, she she was so, like, i don't know, I don't need to get into it too deep, but, like,
00:29:23
Speaker
it it fought only within her own bubble within her own little world and like didn't ever think outside of that i don't know it's it's that sounds way too simplistic but like it's I don't want to get too harsh on her. I mean, we're saying we're saying your mom a lot. but I mean, I think it's clear that we're it's clear we're using her as a stand-in for like... Stand-in for like the general like anti-feminist like... Right. Backwards. Which is like just a... ten Which is so insane.
00:30:01
Speaker
Like, you why do you not want to be... Like, why do you why you like I guess it's just again, voting against your own interests.
00:30:12
Speaker
Yeah, like ah brainwashed by the patriarchy. Yeah. um It's and it's very, very hard to break out of that when you are not safe to do so.
00:30:27
Speaker
you know and i will it's everybody's situation is different but like you know there are women who are you know stuck in marriages or in church community situations right you know they'll lose those support systems if they think differently than them you know like that's i mean i understood that for the fact that like i myself was raised in an unsafe environment Where it was not okay for me to think differently than my family or my community, my church.
00:31:03
Speaker
Like, yeah, that's, I've said it before on this podcast and I'll say it probably a hundred more times before the show is over. Like i could not, like, I couldn't even allow myself to like subtly subconsciously go there internally even.
00:31:24
Speaker
You know, I couldn't, I couldn't allow myself to even think it because it felt too dangerous because it was too dangerous. Yeah. How's the battery acid?
00:31:38
Speaker
Uh, I just cranked it up hoping that like, maybe you're like siphon some more of the lost juice within it didn't do work. Good job. Great. I'm starting to smell like battery acid too. Yeah. it's good for me if you need a like actual smoke break let me know no i left my other one in your car but that's also dead so never mind anyway moving on anyway um so like actually that kind of does semi neatly segue me back into the other thought that i was having before i wanted to like dive into my uh uh conscious feminism um
00:32:18
Speaker
Which is less, it's less to do with like women who vote against their own interests, for example, or women who consider themselves to be anti-feminist or what have you, but more so men who are anti-feminist.
00:32:36
Speaker
um and Ultimately, like it's the men that you know like you k you know not necessarily came in contact with, but encountered at least online seemingly about like not wanting to see you know Wonder Woman in a movie. I mean, one I talk to. It's just like a message forward. Right, but like you know the comments. like you know these These points of view that you came across that you were just like, what the fuck? like You were so thrown by them. right like Ultimately, them and you know people in those veins...
00:33:08
Speaker
of thinking particularly men it's like yeah as much as it's gonna sound like an extreme thing to say they are actually people men in particular who hate women Even if they have a wife, even if they have a sister or a daughter or a mother, everyone has a mother, but like, you know, even if they have those particular women close to them in their lives, who they may believe that they value.
00:33:45
Speaker
But like deep down, like if they don't want to support the the women in their lives' autonomy um and subsequently every other woman out there, – like they, it plain and simple, they hate women and they would never say it that way, but it is the case. I'm sure it's nuanced. I'm sure it's not all like a blanket truth, but I know what you're saying. And I think, I mean, you know, I think some are, you know,
00:34:16
Speaker
It's like in the same way that like people And I'm trying to cut them any slack. just saying like, you know, everything is varying degrees, but yeah. It's like, you know, the way that people who are homophobic, everyone's like, how can it be a phobia? You can't be... It's like, it doesn't make sense to say they're afraid of gay people. Right. But it's that they hate them because they're different or because they... Or they're maybe not so different. they could potentially be more powerful you the misogynist man not you jim but like the misogynist man who feels this way and therefore that is a fear but like at the same time it's it's like fear and hatred i guess going hand in hand and like oh my god the x-men like To to sub out the word hate for fear, i feel like is just as impactful and probably accurate. Anger leads to hate.
00:35:10
Speaker
Hate leads to fear. Fear leads to suffering. Thank you, Yoda. think I got that right. You sure did. um But yeah, like it is...
00:35:27
Speaker
I mean, God, if we're going to, if I, you know, really think about like my roots in understanding feminism as a whole, like it comes back to also simultaneously at the same time in my life, getting into the girl with the dragon tattoo books and then movies, um, the original Swedish title,
00:35:52
Speaker
is the girl who hates men who hate women and it's like this the story over three books is this like very intricate deep laid plot of like protecting a man who is a domestic abuser and also a murderer protecting men who systematically like serial kill women um and then all of the politicians who like give them asylum and bury their uh you know crimes and try to like protect them and like it's
00:36:35
Speaker
like taking down that entire system like from that point i understood like okay like it really is you know it's a hatred is the right word for it because it is again with the conservative like line of thinking of you know it only like everything only applies to me and my immediate family like we get to be the exceptions like if i would you know, don't want any woman to have an abortion, but it's okay if my pregnant teen daughter gets to have an abortion, like, you know, those kinds of things.
00:37:09
Speaker
It's ultimately, hatred is the word for it. Like, it's it's harsh, but it's true. Well, and it's funny, too, and when when you brought up, like, the homophobia element of it. Yeah. and Like, we all know the stories of like how, you know, Grindr will crash in the city that has the Republican National Convention or whatever. like yeah yeah I've heard many stories about that, like some from like gay bartenders in those like you know cities at the time. Yeah, male escorts that will travel to those cities specifically for those events because they know they're going to get a lot of business. right But like, it's so like, so that's always made sense to me.
Patriarchy and Gender Equality
00:37:52
Speaker
why like the right would be like you know so because they're so like just afraid of themselves and their tendencies or and and again we're speaking and we're painting with broad strokes here no pun intended but ah yeah but like the thing that's the thing like with when it comes to like feminism theres like that makes less sense.
00:38:14
Speaker
Right? because like i mean unless i think what it is this like I think it's deeper baked in. well and i think there i think a lot of it is fear of I mean, that's why, like who benefits from like discrediting an entire gender or sex? Yeah. The entire half of the population. Right. It's because they're intimidated by them. They know their women are like yeah smarter, more capable and like, you know, they just don't want like, they, they like, i don't know. They're ah terrified of like that, that actual, like, you know, change of guard, inevitable change of guard. Yeah. I've heard it also said that like, you know, if,
00:38:50
Speaker
they're afraid of like the roles being reversed because of the way that they've, you know, set up the system to treat women and to keep women down. They're afraid of the same thing happening to them without even understanding that like, that is literally not the system that a woman or, like a society set up by women right would create. Like it's not how it would go. I mean, they should be afraid of that. they but they But that's the that's the irony. is like if like if when If and when, hopefully, that like does that paradigm does like swap. yeah like
00:39:23
Speaker
i don't know. I feel like, don't know. Women would just be like... I don't know. I feel like they're terrified that it's just going to be like a whole bunch of dominatrices like, you know, just taking over every like community and and like literally whipping and chaining men into slavery or whatever the fuck. Like they have this like fear, like in such an extreme opposite direction, you know, when in reality it is simply just equality, equality.
00:39:56
Speaker
Well, and it's it is crazy. Like, it's it's also a weird, like, I don't know, an ego. Men have, a lot of men have that. Like, I've seen it in, like, friends of mine, their boyfriends, or, like, girls, exes, women I've dated, and, like, their exes. It's like, and I know you know people like that, like, were, like, I don't know, the male partner will not be able to admit that.
00:40:21
Speaker
like his like female partner is right, ever. right yeah Will never be able to concede. like Yeah, they're terrified of that because it, like into in their own view, makes them lesser inferior right which is like it's okay to be inferior sometimes it's also okay to be wrong that's what saying right like yeah and guess what like maybe that's how you learn and like i don't know yeah be smart become smarter and like make each other grow like a couple us should do yeah right right fuck exactly so um but uh was gonna ask about hold on i just had it it's so good it's so topical oh um do you know about the bechdel test yeah okay good yeah
00:41:04
Speaker
No further questions. Do you want to explain the Bechdel test to anybody who's listening who's never heard of it? I forget the woman. Her name is Bechdel. Her last name was Bechdel. I think she was a doctor. Probably. i forget. But yeah, so it's ah it's it's like a three question like kind of thing you can run through when you're watching like any or any bit kind of form of media, but mostly movies, but like TV shows, book, whatever, any kind of like, you know, storytelling. hmm.
00:41:31
Speaker
And like you you have to, if this, if that piece of media but passes these three rules, then it passes the Bechdel test. And it means it's like pro. Yes. It's a feminist. Yeah. It's like, you know, a feminist piece or whatever of art. um Question one is is, there more than one female character?
00:41:58
Speaker
Like female lead? like not just like side characters or or I guess. Yeah. Well, no, no, that kind of goes into question two. Yeah. Question two is, do they both have names? Oh yeah. And question three is, do they have a conversation with one another about not a man? Anything, anything man not a, yes. And if it, and if it, I feel like I worded those three really weird, but if it passes those three tests, then it's like ah a stamp of approval, feminist Bechdel test. Yeah. Yeah, which is surprisingly very hard to pass. It is amazing that how few do. Yeah, when you once you're aware of it, it becomes just like, oh my god, like what? Yeah.
00:42:38
Speaker
And then when someone has like the nerve to do the opposite, you know, which I thought it was so funny how Wonder Woman had like a male damsel in distress. I thought that was awesome. Yeah.
00:42:50
Speaker
Chris Pine was great. Chris Pine was a breakout star in Wonder Woman. I'm just kidding. good But let's be real. He's the perfect damsel in distress. you know that was a really That was really funny. That was a really good movie. Yeah, for real, for real. um Have you ever heard of or seen the movie The Women?
00:43:10
Speaker
sounds boring listens No. Fuck off. Oh my god. I'm just kidding. oh Wait, what? No, I don't. It sounds familiar, but I don't remember. So i haven't watched it in a long time, but when I first saw it, I really liked it. And I honestly, I mean, like, I didn't necessarily think, oh, like, this is a feminist piece of media because, like, it does not pass the Bechdel test. Right.
00:43:35
Speaker
At least as far as I can recall, um which is incredible because it's ah it's a, Good job. It's a movie called The Women. Right. um But like in my pre-conscious feminist mind, like i was like, this is so feminist. It's a movie that does not feature or there it it does not you do not see a man on screen at any point, nor do you hear a man's voice ever.
00:44:04
Speaker
The whole time. How does it not pass the Bechdel test? Because it's only about a woman... whose husband cheated and therefore she's like throwing a huge fit and like with all of her like girlfriends just like being a crazy crazy so the movie wouldn't exist without the man exactly it's all about the man god but it's just i don't know it was it was so interesting i remember thinking to myself like when i first understood or like learned about the bechdel test that was the first movie that came to mind i was just like oh does the women pass the bechdel test it does not hmm
00:44:40
Speaker
No, it doesn't. Nope. Yeah. It's too bad. Yeah. Are we going to be doing that to like every episode of any show or movie that we watch from here on out?
00:44:52
Speaker
It's just like in the back of our minds checking to see. glasses Sometimes i I do if I remember.
Feminism in Media
00:45:00
Speaker
i feel like I'm going to be doing that more often now that it's like more fresh in the front of my mind. Me and my buddy Owen back in like, you know about this partially, mostly back in like the early 2010s wrote a screenplay that we wanted to make one day and probably won't. But what? You never know. Called Santa Banton and the Lantern of Manta. Right. Which is I understand is a mouthful, but that's kind of the point. A joke. A joke. The joke. um Yes. But it it was a cool script and it it does. It's does and doesn't take itself seriously, but whatever. I remember letting my ex, Alex, read it at one point. And she was, we worked in like the film industry together in New York at the time. She was like a, not not like a, she's a producer, but like, not like that makes it sound much more important than she actually was She wasn't anybody that you've probably heard of. we were making like true crime TV shows. So like, whatever. I mean, still cool, but you know. Anyway, she read it and i did and and she came back and she's like, dude, this is like the most feminist script I have ever read. And I was like, what?
00:46:02
Speaker
It is? I didn't even think about it. But she's like, the first 10 pages, you have like introduced like an elderly lesbian couple. like like ah um A ninja like assassin woman. like I don't know. It's just like, yeah, it was it's good script. But um I was like, it's funny. cause like So that's kind of like, yeah, no, it's always just kind of been ingrained in me. Yeah. But Also, like, i don't know.
00:46:29
Speaker
Like, why aren't women badass? They are. i i know. I know But like, why is that not cool to think? I think that it is.
00:46:39
Speaker
And you know what i'm saying. and I know. But this is the thing is that like, I feel like if we, if if there was like a direction we could force Hollywood to like turn, it would be this direction of like,
00:46:51
Speaker
feature more if not exclusively like female badass like stories and then like just let the plebs cry about it well if it's exclusively female then that's not very equal and not very feminist come on remember the whole thing that uh ruth bader ginsburg said who she was you bastard um Oh my God. Just kidding.
00:47:23
Speaker
Yeah. For the record. Um, when Ruth Bader Ginsburg was asked, uh, how many women needed to be on the Supreme court to, for her to consider it to be enough women. And she said nine.
00:47:37
Speaker
Hmm. Because there have been all men for a long time. So, so yeah, I mean, and that's another thing like, yeah. I don't know. I was going to go kind of going off and I look at DEI angle. don't know if that's the right way to go, but I don't know.
00:47:54
Speaker
Like I'm comfortable like letting others like do their thing. I don't know why like that's a problem. Yeah. um But also maybe it's good. I don't know.
00:48:08
Speaker
I don't know. I try to see it from all angles and I don't like the other side's angles. Yeah.
00:48:17
Speaker
a You're open to letting people be who they are, but you don't have to like it. Seems to be what you're getting at. I don't know. Well, I didn't... i I understand if you have power, you want to hold onto it, but um then I'm like, why? That's not a good platform. Just because it's how
Diversity and Gender Disparity
00:48:35
Speaker
it's always been. It's not the way i should always be. Rarely, if ever. Right. um Yeah. So I don't know.
00:48:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking more in terms of like letting people be like into what they're, whatever they're into. Like if they're not going to be into female, like strong female, badass lead characters. When you said that Ruth Gator, Gator. That's always a risk. Ruth Gator Binsberg.
00:49:00
Speaker
when you said her name rbg i was like uh the first thing i thought of was like remember when biden could like appoint a uh i forget what it was actually but he was like he was purposely looking for like a african-american or a black woman to take the position i think it was a supreme court oh but i think so yeah i forget i forget what it is exactly now but and everyone was like wash you should look for the most qualified. Why are you just looking for blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, meanwhile, they put
00:49:36
Speaker
crybaby Brett Kavanaugh on there. Yeah. Like how is he the most qualified? Brat boy rapist. brit ka I know. So like, Jesus. Yeah. So I don't know. It's just like, I think there's a lot of people that are probably very qualified for that position. Why not open it up a little bit and like, yeah you know, does i diversify. I don't know. So I mean, while I do understand that argument, I also think it's a very short sighted argument. Yeah.
00:50:00
Speaker
Yeah. And it's, and, and also, i don't know. Yeah. Yeah. and I also don't understand that argument. I take that back. yeah I understand what they think they're saying. It's very like, I mean, I also think about like my very literally my like degree program, you know, where I knew it was a hard program to get into. and I knew that not a lot of women got into it.
00:50:27
Speaker
And I don't know how much of that was like, deliberate probably earlier on in history or like you know in the you know mid-century to like late 20th century at Berkeley it well it probably was a little more intentionally sexist um but like you know into the 21st century I'm not sure how much that was like very conscious but I do know that the semester that I applied I was the only
00:51:00
Speaker
girl accepted into the program it's probably that's not right probably isn't good well well that's the thing like i i know that i was And like there were like I was going through i was doing summer semesters. So I sort of like pushed like moved ah ahead a little bit. So like I did end up eventually with other girls in my classes. But they had been accepted like the semester before me or, you know, what have you. But um the semester after I applied is when they started more deliberately like
00:51:41
Speaker
seeking out and and accepting female applicants into the program. But I remember also distinctly in one of my first class, like the first semester classes,
00:51:54
Speaker
um one of the professors outright stated to me in like a group, it was like 10 or 11 of us total, me and all these other dudes. Mm-hmm.
00:52:06
Speaker
Pointed at me and was like, you were the only woman that was accepted into the program this year or this semester. And he looked at everybody else, all the ah all the guys, and he' was like, I mean, she's better than all of you.
00:52:18
Speaker
And I was just like, oh, no. like Internally, I was just like, I do not need this kind of pressure. And yet, like, over time, I think they were right.
00:52:36
Speaker
My professors. I mean,
00:52:40
Speaker
um it was just, it was just interesting because it was just like, because I was the only girl accepted and it was like a dime a dozen to accept dudes into the program. But why would, why wouldn't they accept more women?
00:52:52
Speaker
and Well, they started to finally after I, after I was already in there. But you could have been the first woman there. No, I wasn't, but it was just that it just happened to be that semester in particular that I was the only one accepted.
00:53:04
Speaker
i'm not and this isn't and I'm not saying this against your talent. I'm just saying, like what the hell? I know. know that you I'm sure you weren't the only one who applied. I'm sure I wasn't either.
00:53:14
Speaker
i know. It's pretty fucking crazy, right? that where i'm just like i don't I don't understand what was happening on the other side of that. you know The line of thinking that was just like, this one woman, she's she's real good. We'll accept her. And then all these other dime a dozen dudes.
00:53:30
Speaker
You know? Like... Jesus Christ. I love my classmates. They were all really talented. Some of them have won Grammys now. And I don't. I don't have any Grammys. So, like, yes i'm not I'm not shitting on any of them because they're amazing. But, like... That's true. Like... If I was, like, a woman who applied for that year, i would, like, sue Berkeley. Because that's insane.
00:53:54
Speaker
And, like, that you i used she probably would win. Yeah, maybe. One out of, like, what? Like, 300? Yeah. No, like you were like, how big one you was pretty small? I mean, for like how many? Not I don't know. Not that many. I told you, like my starting class, we were like there was like 11 of us.
00:54:11
Speaker
In the beginning of my that's how many like that started the semester that I started. 11 or 12, I don't know, a dozen. This is a big university. No, it's not.
00:54:22
Speaker
Berkeley School of Music. Berkeley is I mean, I get to understand the grand total of like 4000 students, including like grad students. okay it was like maybe no that's like ah that's i want them but that okay maybe twice the size of my high school still 12 yeah it's there's a lot of programs at berkeley oh oh oh oh per program per pro i'm talking yeah i'm talking about the degree i'm not talking about the whole school i don't know okay i think i'm confused but yeah no um like i was accepted to the pro to the
00:54:56
Speaker
it's very easy for women to be accepted to Berkeley because most of them are singers. I was a singer, not special there. Okay. But then you had to apply for the major. Oh, you couldn't just like declare it. You had to apply and be accepted to it. Oh. And then like take all the like classes that were required for the degree. I mean, it is crazy how like some fields are just so dominated by certain by like, yeah, I mean,
00:55:25
Speaker
I don't know. um By men? well Because of the patriarchy? Well, no, but it could go either way. Like, I don't know. i I don't think I've ever met like a male, like, like I should say a straight male, like interior designer or something, you know? Right. Like, yeah.
00:55:46
Speaker
Yeah. And the way that, oh God. And I'm not and trying to say, yeah. So deep into it, but like the way that like the feminine professions are literally devalued and like therefore
Cultural Bubbles and Personal Growth
00:55:57
Speaker
considered to be a well less valuable in general, but also like literally paid less. Yeah. Like teachers and nurses. You're right.
00:56:04
Speaker
Like ah we could spend forever rambling about it. We're really fucking good. Yeah, no, it's crazy. I mean, and yeah, I went to film school, so I get it. There was like, yeah, artists all over the place. And well, yeah, yeah and and probably like in my like, whatever graduating class of film, I don't even know. That's probably like, you know, 200 students or something. And like, maybe like 30, maybe 30 of them are women, you know?
00:56:34
Speaker
So and I'm totally making up those numbers. But that ratio sounds right. Right. Yeah. 15%. Yeah. fifteen percent yeah Damn, that's a small school. It is a small school. who Yeah.
00:56:49
Speaker
Yeah, no, Berkeley, i mean, Berkeley wasn't huge, but it wasn't tiny. It was not, compared to BYU, BYU had like 40,000 students. Yeah, no, I don't know. Yeah, that's very different. BYU is insane. But like Berkeley is like, I mean, there's also just simply the geographic location being not very conducive to a huge student population, you know, being in the middle of Boston. first two, my first two. The dorm room I had for the first two years of school was literally in a building of an old haunted brothel.
00:57:36
Speaker
Oh my god. It was like 95% students and then there was some like old creeps who like couldn't be kicked out because i' like they had like New York City tenants laws. So they'd just be like an old sad...
00:57:50
Speaker
like woman shuffling with the hall with her mug oh my god yeah it was weird oh yeah i never lived in the dorms of berkeley but i did visit the dorms and they were brand spanking new and like a brand new exclusively berkeley's students high-rise of of uh dorm rooms right in that berkeley area
00:58:21
Speaker
Right in that. Yeah. On a one 60 mass app. Was that, um back Bay? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My old stomping ground. I did love it. I only lived in my own haunted brothel. I'm not even joking. Of an apartment in fucking Brighton, but I loved it. It was great.
00:58:41
Speaker
I liked living in a studio and I liked living by myself. Yeah. And, uh, I grew a lot I learned a lot and, uh, Berkeley was a great time. Even when I was singled out as being better than all of my male classmates by my male professor. don't know what that would do.
00:59:00
Speaker
Like what, what's that? wasn't factor I don't know what it was supposed that supposed to help. I think it was like maybe his attempt at trying to get them to like immediately automatically respect me, yeah which like, I didn't really need much help with that because I terrified them.
00:59:15
Speaker
But as we mentioned at the beginning, I'm an Aries rising and I scare everybody. You seem to want to, you ask me a lot. Like, do I scare you? And I'm like, what? No. Why do you keep asking me that?
00:59:27
Speaker
Because everybody seems to be so fucking scared of me. And I'm not sure why you're not. It's not that I want you to be scared of me, but I'm like, I don't know. I shouldn't be confused because like, clearly it's just, it just means that like, we're meant to be like besties and not because like, you know, you have any sort of weird complexes against like women being powerful.
00:59:49
Speaker
don't read feminism. Yeah. Circle back. Yeah. Circles within circles. But yeah, no, it was it was very literally like this, like particularly, i don't know
Confronting Misogyny and Encouraging Support
01:00:00
Speaker
if I've told you the story. I've told it on the podcast before. but like this one particular tall, buff, scary Middle Eastern classmate of mine. ah Didn't need to be scary in Middle Eastern.
01:00:13
Speaker
Scary because he looks like he could like, you know, rip you apart. He had very large arms. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:00:24
Speaker
Uh, loves to make misogynist jokes and then look at me while he chuckled very stupidly to himself. Very funny. And i like him. And I just stared him down all the time.
01:00:38
Speaker
And, uh, One particular day, you know, he did that and i just stood there with my arms folded. just didn't make a face. Just didn't blink at him either. And he was just like, you actually really scare me. And I was just like, good.
01:00:58
Speaker
And that was the end of that. Not a single fucking misogynist joke out of him for the rest of the time I knew him. Well, maybe his misogyny was flirting.
01:01:10
Speaker
it didn't work if that was the case it didn't work
01:01:17
Speaker
but we were chill after that cool yeah but that's what i mean apparently i scared them so they didn't need to be told that i knew that they needed to respect me well you probably like maybe you like don't be misogynist and then you won't have to fear yeah people right women How about that?
01:01:42
Speaker
How about that? What a concept. Yeah, I don't know okay so Again, I don't know why this is even like yeah a thing.
01:01:55
Speaker
Well, I guess I do, but I think it's dumb. True. True indeed. So i I guess to wrap it up, um Do you have anything you would say to potential male ah allies out there who feel ah afraid to speak up or, you know, protect their female friends or, i you know, anything like that?
01:02:30
Speaker
Anything you want to say to them? Because they'll listen to men, but they won't listen to women. Listen to women. I don't know. Like what? I don't know. Yeah, no, I, I'm just, if I, if I keep going, the more i talk about this, the more just like sputter in angry confusion. Cause it just doesn't make any fucking sense to me.
01:02:47
Speaker
Like yeah be a person and have compassion. Right. And like, and also like,
01:02:58
Speaker
I don't know. Again, aren't you like, why or why, why are you showing respect? i don't know. Like, I don't know. God, it just, see, this is what what happens. I just, I'm like, why are you not like, are you, you are like attracted to women.
01:03:14
Speaker
You love women. like you're so close it's right there don't be afraid of women let women do their thing and and maybe and also like maybe give them like support and yeah yeah and and take support and like be equal and you know yeah and don't be afraid of like them being right because they probably are i don't know or know true yeah I don't know. Not every time. Don't get me here it'll get me wrong. right But that's equality!
01:03:51
Speaker
Oh my god. the real question is, between the Capricorn and the Virgo, who's the one that's right?
01:04:03
Speaker
About what? Anything. um I say it's the Virgo. i Do not even dignify your answer with a response.
01:04:17
Speaker
Did I say that right? Yes, you did. And also, fuck you. Last word. Well, thank you for joining me. No problem.
01:04:31
Speaker
Heads or tails? was but That was a ring, not a coin. oh I was going to contradict whatever you said. Once again, the Virgo's right.
01:04:44
Speaker
Anyway, thank y'all. Thank you, listeners, for for listening. Thanks. And thank you, Jim, for talking to me today about feminism and astrology and... ah little bit of superheroes. And battery acid.
01:05:01
Speaker
Oh. I thought I said Batman. was like, I didn't really. Oh, I did. The Long Halloween. You're right. Talk about Batman too. Batman and Battery Acid. There's your feminist title for the episode. I'll throw off everybody titling it Batman and Battery Acid.
01:05:19
Speaker
A conversation on feminism.