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The American Craftsman Podcast Ep. 33 | Blue Machine Blues
44 Plays4 years ago
On Episode 33 of The American Craftsman Podcast, hosted by Greene Street Joinery, we talk about our horrible experience with a major tool manufacturer.
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Beer of the Week (Kitsune Brewing Forager): https://untappd.com/b/kitsune-brewing-company-forager/4048403
Tool of the Week: (Wera Kraftform Kompakt) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001HSNHM2/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=greenestreetj-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B001HSNHM2&linkId=04b622c53fa3e23f51ff97f1a8307c67
Greene Street Joinery is a custom design & build shop located in Monmouth County, New Jersey. We build multigenerational furniture with an eco-friendly and sustainable mindset.
Inspired and guided by the ideals of the Arts and Crafts movement, we believe in the use of traditional craftsmanship and simple, well-proportioned forms; sustainability and ethical practices; and importantly, taking pleasure in our work as craftsmen to create quality pieces of enduring value.
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Transcript
Partnership Announcement with Montana Brand Tools
00:00:16
Speaker
Ain't no shame, but there's been a change
00:00:22
Speaker
The American Craftsman Podcast is proud to partner with Montana Brand Tools. The West was built by people with strength and great pride in their workmanship. It was a necessity that early settlers of Montana have a strong will, a resilient character, and great determination to tame the rugged landscape while adapting to its dramatic climate. That spirit made in the USA pride and craftsmanship is alive today, both in how Montana Brand Tools are manufactured and how they perform.
00:00:48
Speaker
Montana Brand Power Tool accessories are manufactured utilizing proprietary state-of-the-art CNC machining equipment and the highest quality materials available. Montana Brand tools are guaranteed for life to be free of defects in material and workmanship because we build these tools with pride and determination.
00:01:05
Speaker
Montana Brand Tools are manufactured by Rocky Mountain Twist, located in Ronin, Montana. Montana Brand's heritage comes from a long line of innovative power tool accessories. Use coupon code American Craftsman for 10% off your order at MontanaBrandTools.com.
Podcast Production Insights
00:01:20
Speaker
Well, here we are, episode 33 of the American Craftsman podcast. Time flies, flying, flying. We still got 31 up here.
00:01:29
Speaker
I haven't been updating. Yeah, we have to talk to the production assistant. Yeah. It's an unpaid position.
00:01:39
Speaker
We're pretty good at filling those unpaid positions.
Beer of the Week
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of them a whole lot of them well It's not wasting any time getting into the beer of the week this week because I'm pretty excited about this one. Yeah so Two weeks ago. We had that frozen beer. That's right slushy beer
00:02:00
Speaker
The debacle of the frozen. Yeah, which was. What was the name of that beer? I just remember it was from, you know, Kitsuni. Yeah, there was Moon Moon was in the name. Yeah. So we actually hit them up because we like that beer so much and bought some beer, had them send it out to us. So we have Forger from Kitsune Brewing.
Collaboration with Kitsune Brewing
00:02:27
Speaker
And I pulled a little blurb up here.
00:02:30
Speaker
And it's gone Got it back
00:02:38
Speaker
Forger Kitsune Brewing Company. It's a New England style IPA, a full body hazy IPA dry hopped with galaxy Citra and mosaic hops. This beer pours a beautiful orange color, offering a bold nose of citrus and pineapple. This beer displays a full body with a mouthfeel like you are sipping on clouds that makes each sip better than the last. So thanks to our buddy Tyler. Yeah, for the beer. We actually we have some more coming.
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah, they gifted us that first batch, didn't they? Yeah, so Sean, who's one of the guys that we chat with on Clubhouse and on Instagram, he's friends with Tyler, who is the owner and brew master at Kitsune.
00:03:21
Speaker
So he offered to send some out. We sent him some t-shirts and glasses and stuff. We did a little swap and And got to try it out. So I Didn't do a very good pour this week. Yeah mine. I have a little bit left in here. I almost went over but Been dying to try this. I love the look. Cheers Cheers to you guys
00:03:48
Speaker
Mm.
Tool of the Week: Wera Screwdriver
00:03:49
Speaker
Wow, that's good. You know, it's it's unique without being like crazy flavored. Yeah. I love that haziness. It's got an amazing color, especially up next to the can like that with that pale pink color.
00:04:13
Speaker
Good stuff. It almost looks like, like juice, like fresh orange juice. Yeah. What a pineapple. The aforementioned pineapple. Yeah. Yeah. My favorite beers are the ones that have that grapefruit pineapple kind of flavor. Yeah. Excuse me. It's going to be another winner this week. Oh yeah.
00:04:36
Speaker
Yeah man, look at that on camera. Stark white head and then it doesn't even look like beer. No. Like a candle almost. Yeah. Good stuff. We'll be trying the lager. Maybe we won't do it next week, but we'll do it the week following.
00:04:54
Speaker
tool of the week this week. That's you. What do you got? Well, as you know, my birthday was a couple of weeks back and my, my nice aunt sent me a little Amazon gift card in the mail and what did I do? I just went online and started looking for some small tools, hand tools. Got me a mallet actually.
00:05:19
Speaker
That's right. We'll get into that after after the weirra craft form compact. Hold it up a little closer to the camera. It's it's kind of a, you know, a fancy screwdriver comes in this little kit. And this is something that I'll put in my installation bag, you know, so you just toss it in. It's always good to have something that performs
00:05:47
Speaker
few functions. So you got the, you know, your cool wear a handle and then this pops out. So you could use it as a stubby or you could use it as like more traditional length. And then this piece actually removes your drill. And then inside it comes with six bits.
00:06:05
Speaker
Now, one of my little things that I like to do is replace some of the bits. This set was three Phillips, you know, one, two and three and three straight, same size. So I just keep the Phillips number two and the straight number two. And then I put in
Oliver Machines vs Powermatic Discussion
00:06:24
Speaker
the square drive, the Roberts one and two. And then what do you I don't even know what you call these star drive bits. Yeah, they're like a tour.
00:06:33
Speaker
Maybe they're not torques, but yeah, I think they have more splines than a regular torques. No, it's the tea designation Yeah, it works. Okay. Yeah a couple of the more common size there. So I kind of customize the inside so I have six and This is a great little tool
00:06:52
Speaker
It's pretty inexpensive. I don't remember exactly, you know, I have the same one under 30 bucks. Yeah. And so this is like, you know, you've got your little tool bag, you're in somebody's house and you just need to take off, you know, light switch cover or, you know, something quick and pull out your nice little full driver set.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah, I keep one of those in my tool belt. So which I don't really wear on an install unless it's like a kitchen install or something like that. But like if I'm doing something around the house or, you know, like, for example, I worked with Jamie on on Monday, helped him.
00:07:27
Speaker
take out a window and put in a new window so like in my tool belt I had that and you know I mean it always comes in handy I forget what I have in mind I I don't I don't definitely don't have a number one Phillips but I do have a two and a three you know good for like hinges and stuff like that and the definitely two slotted bits I think I might have a
00:07:50
Speaker
of red torques, which is like the GRK size. They have the red and the gold. I don't know what the number is on those, but... They have the red and the green in there. Yeah, it's nice because, you know, you have bits in there and you could just always pull that thing out and throw it in your drill. So it's good.
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah, I like it. And it's one of those super handy things to have, you know, it's like a utility knife or something like that. You always need something. And I'm going to probably pick up a couple of posse bits, some little loose posse bits, because that's something you almost always need is the posse screwdriver. Yep.
00:08:26
Speaker
Even though we have actually a we're a you know regular standalone I say the only downside to using like a Non-dedicated posse drive is to get inside You can't adjust you can't adjust them unless it's a posse unless it's a long one and then it doesn't fit in there. Yep. Yep. Yep
00:08:45
Speaker
I hate running into that like at the church so we went to the the saint anthony's to do the upholstery reupholster the kneelers for the altar room because the cleaners cleaned it with some something and like bleached it out really abrasive yeah. And you know these skirts these oak skirts that.
00:09:06
Speaker
that go up to the kneeler they're screwed in with plugs and you can't get in there with a regular you know I like to use the snappy or the or whatever bit holder and you can't get in there because it's too big yeah yeah so it goes straight into the truck you gotta have uh yeah you gotta have both you know yeah because you want to have one with a magnet and then you gotta be able to access things that are
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah. And so we will go back around and talk about that little mallet you got there. That's probably going to be... That's a big mallet. Yeah. Tool of the week coming up one of these times. Yeah. So that's a... I don't know if it's also a simplex. It is. I think it's the four... I think they call it the... Simplex 40. Yeah. There's like a difference between the heads though. They're different. It's a different material. It is. So I don't know what they, you know, what Holder calls that, but it's a Holder simplex 40.
00:10:01
Speaker
and has the red and the black, which the red is a little harder than the white and the black and the blue. I don't know. Maybe the blacks a little bit harder. I think so. It seems to be a little bit more robust all around. Yeah. Just wait till I get some panels glued up and be slamming that thing. Surely you just. Yeah.
00:10:24
Speaker
We had somebody in here that his methodology for flushing off was to smash it with a with a dead blow hammer.
00:10:35
Speaker
This is a finesse shop here. That's right. Leave the brute force at the door. Yeah. Well, yours disappeared. We don't know what happened to it. It's somewhere between East and Pennsylvania and here. It's lost. Yeah. I think, you know, it's going to turn up like things always do. But God knows when.
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah, so that was that was I I had I couldn't figure out anything else. You know, we're spoiled for stuff here in the shop. So oh yeah, I thought it'd be a nice surprise. Yeah, it was. I appreciate that.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, I actually I used it at the church yesterday. Yeah. Yeah, they're they're probably not up anymore. And you guys aren't going to see this or listen to this podcast for another five or six hours because I won't have it up. But I put on the stories, the altar rail and the confession yesterday. So you may have seen it.
00:11:33
Speaker
Actually, I want to say before we get into the questions, we asked the patrons for some help last week and they helped us out. If you listen to the podcast and you like it, go give us a review on Apple Podcasts. Oh, that's right. Or I don't think I'm not sure if Spotify has, you know, a rating system, but yeah, you know, be a big help to. That's right. To get to get the podcast in front of more people. Yeah. Yeah. And an honest review. I'm not asking for five stars if you don't think it's a five star, but, you know,
00:12:03
Speaker
So check out, you know, all the weird stuff. Yeah, it's nice. I have a weird posse. Yeah, that's my go to posse drive. And I actually, aside from that, I have that we have, which is a 26 with the double sided bits. I was actually looking for that, but they didn't have it. It's a little too big. Like it's not good to keep in a tool belt, but it's good. Like, you know, the belt clip on my knife was going loose and it's like a Torx.
00:12:29
Speaker
What is it? The higher the number, the smaller it is. Yeah, it's got everything in there. Yeah. It's a screwdriver. Twenty six different bits and they have different versions. So they have like one that's for electricians and one that has, I think maybe like the anti tamper kind of like bathroom stalls and stuff. Yeah. And like phones, you know, they have like a one with a torch, like a hole in the middle. Yeah. Yeah, I like that thing.
00:12:55
Speaker
Yeah. Remember when we were putting the refrigerator door panels on one guy, 10 minutes.
00:13:02
Speaker
We came across those zany, you know, like everything was a different screw and it was all these unorthodox screws. Like that thing. Yes, which we will get into. Yeah, we're going to use every metric size Allen key from eight millimeter all the way down to two and a half. And every now and again, we'll give you an SAE. Yeah, just to throw you off, just so you get it in there and wiggle it around a little bit and question what the hell you're doing.
00:13:30
Speaker
Oh, well, speaking of the devil, I guess we should get into these questions here, huh? Yeah. Now this first question you think is to be almost like a setup.
00:13:40
Speaker
It certainly felt like a setup when it came in yesterday. And, you know, we're going to try and keep things civil here and professional. But it may diverge. It doesn't mean we won't be honest. No. Well, yeah, honesty is our priority. It's our stock and trade. So this question came in last night from Tommy's Custom Shop on Instagram.
00:14:06
Speaker
What are your thoughts and opinions on Oliver machines compared to Powermatic? I'm looking into getting a new joiner and wondering if the Oliver Power-Loligram joiner is worth it compared to just the PM60HH, which is a helical head, stands for. Would love to hear your thoughts. Sorry, that's from Tommy.
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah, this is, I mean, this isn't the first time it's happened where we talk about something and have something going on in the shop and a question comes in that seems like it was written for us. Seems to have it every week, pretty much.
00:14:40
Speaker
Yes, so how how to go about explaining the situation? You know, many of you know, about eight weeks ago, I'll say we got the new Oliver planer, the 20 inch planer and the shaper.
00:14:58
Speaker
The shaper has been great. Haven't had any issues with it. We've used it not a whole lot, but put a put a decent amount considering that, you know, we don't use a shaper very often in our work. We've used a decent amount for the amount of time that we've had it. But the planer has been.
00:15:19
Speaker
let's say less than functional. Yeah. You know, since we got it. And we looked up Oliver originally because we have about an 18 year old 10 inch joint. Yeah. Yeah. We have that 42 40, which, you know, we've we've recommended to everybody. It's not a model they make anymore. But we we based our our purchase off of our experience with the 42 40. Yeah. It's been the cornerstone of our production.
00:15:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's the second tool that the wood hits every time. Yeah. Gets cut to a rough length and then it goes to the jointer. Yeah. And it's been it's been a really good jointer. Yeah. Yeah. So we get in the 4430 201 or whatever they call it. It's the helical head 4430 20 inch planer. And we're having feed issues. So the boards aren't feeding through. They're going in and they're getting stuck right before the cutter head. Yeah.
00:16:14
Speaker
So it turns out that the chip breaker was too low. It wasn't calibrated from the factory. Right, which it should have been. Yeah, of course. The wood is actually hitting this thing before it gets into the cutter head, past the cutter head, into the outfeed roller.
00:16:32
Speaker
So we make some adjustments and we're still having issues and we reach out and, you know, play phone tag. We get about two weeks. Yeah. Well, you know, we'll call you at seven o'clock or you can you call at 7 a.m. Pacific time and call. I can't get all anybody anyway. So, you know, basically all they could tell us was, yeah, you just got to set everything back up to to factory specs and you should be all good to go.
00:17:00
Speaker
So we do that, you know, by a new dial indicator to make sure that the old one we figured, oh, it must be something wrong with this. It's not accurate. Yeah, it's not, you know, the best set up because it didn't have a magnetic stand and couldn't be that, you know, couldn't be the machine. Right. Yeah. So we're figuring out, we'll just get this thing and set it up. It'll be fine.
00:17:19
Speaker
So, you know, we set it up literally talking four times to this point, set it everything up to factory spec. The cutter head is zero. Chip breakers at zero to plus two hundredths. So a little bit tiny bit lower. You know, it'll go up or maybe it was minus. I forget anyway.
00:17:38
Speaker
In-feed roller is at two, two to three hundredths lower than the cutter head. Out-feed roller is at whatever. Same thing. Two and a half to three and a half hundredths lower. So we set it up. We're still having issues. Then we start to notice this is on this machine. It's unique to this and some of the Laguna machines. The the cutter head assembly is what moves. Right. So on most planers, the bed is what moves up and down and the cutter head is fixed. It's fixed at the top.
00:18:09
Speaker
On this one, the bed is fixed and the cutter head moves up and down. This way you can have in-feed and out-feed. Right, it's for more production style work in general.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, and if you have, you know, big long pieces, it's easier to set up work holding. Yeah, or support in feed and out feed support. We start to notice that on the gearbox side, which is the right side, that when you're looking at the scale that reads the thickness of cut, it's deflecting up, you know, about
00:18:40
Speaker
On the scale, it's reading almost a 16th of deflection. And then when the board passes through, it drops down. So we're like, man, what the hell is going on here? Right. And again, the problems all of a sudden were on the back burner. Yeah, we have real issues. But you know, let the text know that and they just got to set it up. We haven't had any problems with these machines, blah, blah, blah. Right. So then finally, you know,
00:19:10
Speaker
We're talking two weeks ago now. You know, I had to get in touch and I'm like, listen, this machine is a dud. It's a lemon. It's no good. We've tried everything. And what I'm told is, oh, yeah, we had 10 machines that left the factory and didn't get calibrated. They weren't factory calibrated from the factory. The factory calibrated from the factory. So we're like, oh, man.
00:19:37
Speaker
But we've been able to fix all the other machines by just walking the people through how to set it up. So we're being patient. We say, okay, we'll wait to hear from the text again. And then four days go by, we get a phone call.
00:19:56
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So what'd you do? Well, you know, I said everything back up to factory this. OK, I'm going to let me have somebody else call it. Ask the same questions. Like, listen, we've set it up four or five, six times now. And we're good at this. I've tried different setups. Justin and and some other guys in in this little group that we talk in and Instagram, they're like, try this, you know, set the infy to five thou instead of two hundreds. So I'm trying different things to get it to work, even outside of what's in the book.
00:20:27
Speaker
and we can't get any answers they finally hand it over to the higher ups and you know
00:20:33
Speaker
put in, we send video footage of what's happening, of the problems, they send it to the higher ups and they contact, you know, engineers in Taiwan where the things are being made and all very slow going and... There's no urgency on their part, even though they know we're a two man shop and that we process all our wood through the jointer and planer and this grinds operations to a halt. Right. I mean, we ran 200 board feet or
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, something like 200 board feet or 250 board feet of walnut through this thing. And it was excruciating. It took us two, three days. Yeah. I mean, we can't begin to quantify
00:21:17
Speaker
how much time in turn is money that's been sunk into this thing in lost productivity, troubleshooting, communicating back and forth with Oliver. So we're very confident we're going to be able to fix a machine, but if not, here are the two options. We could either give you a full refund
00:21:40
Speaker
Or we could sell you this more expensive machine. We'll give you a 35% discount off of MSRP, which is obviously the most inflated price. Well, here's the thing. The refund is all well and good. We got a bad machine and we cut our losses for all the time we wasted with it. Time and energy sold a perfectly good planer to bring this in thinking it would help the shop.
00:22:05
Speaker
There's no planers available right now. The supply chain is totally F'd. There's literally not a 20 inch helical head planer to be bought. There's not one. There's none. If there is, it's sitting in some little store somewhere. And we can't find it. Right. Because how the hell do we know? None of the major grizzlies got nothing. Tool nut, nothing. All these woodcraft, woodcraft, rockler, nothing. Nobody has anything.
00:22:35
Speaker
So we can't replace this machine. No, we can't get another 20-inch planer, right? So option A is out. Yeah option B. We'll sell you this $9,000 planer. This is a $3,000 planer. We'll sell you this $9,000 planer. So ends up with the discount and refund ends up being 28 to almost $3,000 out of pocket. Yeah, so now
00:23:00
Speaker
We have to create this machine up. We have to receive a new machine. We have to lift a machine that now weighs three times as much as this weighs fifteen hundred pounds. We have to install a new 50 amp line over here because this is on a 40 amp line. We got to buy six wire. We got to buy the receptacle. We got to get conduit. We got to run it over here. You're talking hours and hours and money and headache and probably both of us for a day by time it's said and done. Yeah. Three hundred bucks in material. Once you get the wire and all that.
00:23:30
Speaker
So that's not good either. We didn't plan on spending $5,900 on a planer for a 22-inch planer. No, we don't really need it. It'd be a luxury. But I mean, we take one 30-second passes on that at most.
00:23:47
Speaker
We do, you know, very light passes because basically we just get the most thickness we can at a five quarter, like if it's an inch and a 16th, so be it. Yeah, we just, you know, we we process it very, very gently. You know, we're not taking eighth inch or quarter inch passes or anything now. So we don't even need that machine.
00:24:11
Speaker
So it's like, I'm telling them, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Like, what are we supposed to do? We have this bad machine. You won't even send the tech out to look at it. Yeah, that was the thing. We asked them to send a tech out to the shop and see if they could, you know, repair it, do whatever it is, because our first choice was to keep this machine. Right. We're already in so deep on it all the time and money. Like, that's the best option is if this one just worked.
00:24:40
Speaker
wasn't a knee-jerk reaction by us where it's like this machine's giving us trouble take it back we wanted to keep this machine yeah we just need it to work properly i wish it had worked when we got it and i wish it had worked when i when i tuned it back up five times right if it had been if it was fine after five times putting it back to where it was supposed to be
00:25:02
Speaker
and okay yeah it sucks but we have a working planer every piece of wood in the shop goes through the planer we can't make money unless we have a planer that works yeah so you know a three thousand dollar investment all of a sudden turns into now we're losing money yeah so the customer service has been horrendous
00:25:22
Speaker
Yeah, they they treat us as insignificant. That's the way I feel. So we're talking back and forth about, you know, how we're going to fix this. And then I see on Instagram, pop up Oliver, hey, new 16 inch helical head planers in stock. Don't fucking send one to us. Right. Don't say, listen, it's on a truck. It's coming. Right. We'll figure out the 20 inch. But here's a 16 inch for now.
00:25:47
Speaker
I hate this in emails when people say, you know, I really share your frustration. You know, listen, buddy, you have no clue because here's your frustration. You got to deal with me. Here's my frustration. The shop is at a standstill because we have a plan. Yeah. And we have to sort it out. It's not like we could even just push it to the side and order something else. Yeah. There's nothing equivalent available out there right now. I would have had
00:26:15
Speaker
First thing would have been a tech would have been scheduled at the first conversation. You're having issues with the planer. A tech is going to come out and take a look because you know what? As mechanically inclined as we are, we're not machinery techs. That's what they do. They work for Powermatic, Jet, Oliver, all these companies. They work on these planers. So I would have had somebody come out and fix it, especially when you tell me that you had 10 machines that left the factory and they weren't fucking set up. Right.
00:26:41
Speaker
So how could any of this be on us? I would be bending over backwards. Yeah, it's not as simple as buying something at the department store that you go to in your car and it's in the neighborhood and you bring it back and make an exchange. Yeah, it's a big process. This company's on the West Coast, the trucking time. It's an eight, 900 pound delivery. Yeah.
00:27:10
Speaker
The shop, the way it's situated, it's down a gravel driveway that's good 200 feet from the street. I mean, it takes some logistics to make these things happen. And we were prepared for that when we brought these machines in. We made, well, we didn't prepare for it not working and needing to be done again in less than a month's time.
00:27:34
Speaker
Yeah, I forgot to, you know, originally the shaper that that we had been promised got sold out from under us, you know, we paid for it and then all of a sudden it was was sold. And yeah, so it's been. It's been quite an ordeal. Yeah, they've they've been, you know, blowing smoke up or asked for a long time now.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah. And now they're just super short with all the communication. Just I said, all right, listen, we'll send it back. So, you know, we did today. We went. We bought a Powermatic. Yeah. And I can guarantee you 15 inches is all we could. That's all we could do. So, you know, again, we're getting fucked here. We're getting screwed. There's there's no two ways about it. We got the short end of the stick on this deal.
00:28:18
Speaker
But we needed a planer and there's nothing else we could do. The last communication we had with Oliver. Now they they worded it in a way you know when people start to get edgy in their communication they said as long as you will refund your money as long as you created up as what was their word as as I forget.
00:28:40
Speaker
you know, as required or something like that. They had some sort of, it sounded a little bit like legalese. So we wrote them back immediately and said, just let us know any requirement and we'll need it. Forward any and all requirements for creating. And we didn't hear back from them. And that was four or five hours ago. 8.45 this morning. Yeah. So now they're finally answering the emails, you know, that's the other thing. They know that we're on the East Coast. I get phone calls at six o'clock at night.
00:29:10
Speaker
And we're told that they're in there at 7 Pacific. Call me at 10 a.m. Yeah. 10 a.m. Eastern time. You're there at 7. Call me when you get in. Don't call me at 6 o'clock. I'm not at the shop. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is stuff goes wrong. Absolutely. It's all about how you handle it. That's after the fact. That's right. We were very patient with throughout all this. But oh actually I was I was sick over the weekend. I couldn't tell anybody about
00:29:39
Speaker
You were sick. Right. That's what they told us. What if we got a call from a client and, you know, the cabinets were falling off of the wall? Yeah. Would I wait until Monday? Wait until Monday to go? Or if it was, you know, they called on Friday night, would I be there Saturday at 7 a.m.?
00:29:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'd have to go too, wouldn't I? But what if we had to lose some money because we screwed up and didn't screw the cabinets in right in and off the wall? That's on us. No, that's a client's fault for hiring us. Yeah, I know. I know. It goes against everything that we preach as far as how we like to do business and how we communicate with our clients.
00:30:20
Speaker
I think it hurts us a little bit because they sort of led us to believe we were important. We were building a relationship with them. Three of our main machines in the shop were all Oliver. Yeah. Oh, they were appreciative of, you know, us talking about Oliver and. But it was all a smokescreen. Yeah. In the end, the only way they wanted to help us was to upsell us a machine. Right.
00:30:48
Speaker
And I even asked. I asked for a better price on the machine because we would have made it work. And they couldn't. No, they didn't even entertain it. They just probably. I can't come down anymore in the price. What do you mean? You can't come down anymore in the price. Yeah. No, you can. You just won't. Right.
00:31:07
Speaker
So Oliver did us dirty in the end. Yeah. And I'm sorry that we ever even recommended the machines because even if the machine is good, you don't want to deal with customer service like this. If something ever goes wrong, you want to be treated like a customer.
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean it's not something that we could have foreseen. No, no. But hopefully this will serve as some bit of information for people going forward. Yeah, and I don't place any blame on the machine.
00:31:40
Speaker
Things go wrong with machines. It's a quality control thing if it leaves the factory without being checked. Right. That's one thing. That's not good. Harried and hopeless over there trying to get things right. Which I understand. Yeah. There's things are backordered and they're trying to push machines out and get them on boats. And OK, that I can I can give them that. That's understandable. But how you handle it after the fact.
00:32:04
Speaker
And we've got three machines here. Right. We've spent plenty of money since 2002. Yeah. 2004. Yeah. So it kind of gives you an idea of what they think of us in particular and maybe us in the marketplace, you know, what what a small business means to them because
00:32:30
Speaker
If you're a small business like ours, a two-man shop, you can't really spend much more unless you were just starting from scratch and outfitting your entire shop with one tool branch. Yeah, or taking out a bunch of debt, you know. And I told him, I said, listen, we're a small two-man owner-operator set up. Like, we can't afford to pay another $3,000 for a planer, plus all the ancillary costs that come along with receiving a planer that's bigger, heavier, requires more power. Yeah.
00:33:00
Speaker
It means changing things around in the shop. Didn't care. Nope.
00:33:06
Speaker
They gave us the old FU. Yeah. So I mean, we had to buy the dial indicator. We had to go out. Oh, we got the solution. We got the solution. Got to torque down these eight bolts to 18 to 24 pounds. I said, all right, I'm going to have to go buy a torque wrench. Right. We had to go to a woodworking shop. We didn't have a torque wrench. Right. We've got no business doing that on the machine. The machine should have come set up.
00:33:32
Speaker
Set to go out by that by the the socket Alan Alan had sockets right everything was to work down yeah so they said oh well we're still waiting to find out the actual foot pounds because we don't have that machine here they don't have one is machines. Right in in Washington you should have one of every machine.
00:33:52
Speaker
just in case something goes wrong. There was a certain amount of incompetence mixed in with their lack of caring. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's not even anything in the book about adjusting the chip breaker. No. And that was where the whole thing where it went wrong first. Yeah.
00:34:09
Speaker
So, you know, I mean, you guys could tell we're visibly upset. We're frustrated. Yeah. And, you know, feel slighted. I mean, yeah, there's a there's a blow to our not ego, but our pride, I'm going to say. Yeah. So, you know, take the information and
00:34:33
Speaker
You know, interpret it how you may, but. You know, these are all none of these facts have been exaggerated or anything like that. I think they've been downplayed. Yeah, it's all true stuff. We could go. We could be on a rant. Yeah. But we're just retelling our experience here. So to answer your question, we just bought a powermatic tool to replace our Alva. And that's what we're going to recommend. Yeah.
00:35:01
Speaker
I mean, I haven't heard a bad thing about Powermatic customer service. I've heard nothing but good things. So yeah. Oliver seems to be new in the in this arena and they're going to probably experience some growing pains. Yeah. And, you know, the. Yeah, I won't get I won't get into anything else on the page. I will talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. I hope that helps, Tommy. Yeah.
00:35:31
Speaker
Is that the longest we ever spent on one question?
Laser Levels vs Traditional Levels
00:35:34
Speaker
We've been going for 35 minutes. That's probably true. Yeah. Because we got into it pretty quick. Yeah. How painful that 30 minutes was. It's been a painful two months. I'll tell you that much. Yeah. Yeah. This might be a two beer episode.
00:35:51
Speaker
So our next question comes from Cory. CT, does CT stand for Connecticut or could it be Cory or something? CT would work. Yeah. Cause he's in Long Island. All right. Do you use a laser level or simply a level on the job site? What brand do you recommend? Uh, depends on the scope of the install. Yeah. A kitchen. Yeah. A kitchen. I'm using a laser level. I have the green Bosch 12 volt, um,
00:36:22
Speaker
Don't remember the model number off the top of my head, but it's the 360 degree, three axis. So it does. You know, a level line, a plumb line and a. I guess it's two plumb lines, a level line and two plumb lines.
00:36:41
Speaker
So it shoots three ways, 360 degrees. So you can just put it in the center of the room, shoot the whole room. And whether you leave it on or you just put some marks, snap lines, whatever, you have a good reference. It's easy to find low points and high points. It's really nice. If it's like a ball unit or something. I can in Easton.
00:37:03
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like on something like like a wall unit where if it's 36 or if it's 36 and a quarter, 35 and a half or whatever, it doesn't matter. It just use a level. Yeah. It's easier, less set up. I mean, I wouldn't say it's easier, but just less set up. And, you know, if the level fits on the one piece that you're putting in, then that's all you really need. Yeah. We have those nice to build levels of yours.
00:37:28
Speaker
Yeah, I got them all from them all from 70. It's the long ones, 78 all the way down to the to the torpedo. Yeah. The 16 inch is nice. That comes in handy a lot. I just got a little grumpy. Yeah. Ten inch torpedo.
00:37:49
Speaker
A lot of things in the shop have nicknames. Yeah. Brands we recommend. I mean, I really like the Bosch. PLS, I've worked at PLS lasers, Pacific laser systems, I think it is. Those are really nice. I'm not sure if they make a green one. Beater or Biter, B-E-I-T-E-R, I think it is. Those are supposed to be really good. But again, I only have experience with the PLS and the Bosch. Even the red lasers I used to have were Bosch.
00:38:18
Speaker
What's the significance of the light color? The green is much easier to see in high light, in bright situations. Yeah, those red lasers suck. They really suck. I'd say it's worth it to spend the extra money to get a green. Why do they keep making red? It's cheaper, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, maybe. The green, not only is it a color difference, but it is brighter.
00:38:50
Speaker
All right. You want to read the Jack pallets next question? Yeah, this is the Jordan Jack pallet show. We had Freddie, the Freddie period craftsman show last week. Got a bunch of questions from Jordan this week.
Job Site Etiquette
00:39:02
Speaker
What is the bathroom rules for on site at a customer's house to do or not to do? I can't stop thinking about our former employee.
00:39:19
Speaker
Hmm Yep, he would he live by his own rules. Yep Yeah, he would without even asking go in and stink up your bathroom. Oh my god Well, I'm gonna say that we're pretty much, you know, we usually hold it in but yeah
00:39:38
Speaker
If we're there all day, whatever will be, you know, we're we're number one and clean up after yourself. Yeah. And it's always important to ask. Yeah. You know, we're in somebody's space. Is there a powder room I can use? Yeah. And people are so nice. You know, oh, I mean, you know, if you deny someone the right to use your bathroom, your scumbag.
00:40:02
Speaker
It's one thing if it was like the Amazon delivery driver or something, but like we're working in your house. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. We've been here all day sucking down coffee. Like what do you expect? By the time we get into somebody's home for the installation, we've had a relationship with them for months, probably.
00:40:19
Speaker
Oh man, that reminds me of when we went up to Easton. So we get up there, I think we left around, what, 10 o'clock or so. And I went to the bathroom right before we left. Yeah, so we finished the install, we sat down for some tea and snacks. Yeah, we all drank tea on top of it. And then, like, we left and I had to go to the bathroom, but it, like, I didn't, I was all discombobulated from, you know, saying goodbye and leaving and I didn't go. So then,
00:40:44
Speaker
I'm in my truck, Rob's in his old truck that we borrowed from our buddy John, who he sold it to. And I'm texting Rob, I'm like, I'm going to pull, you know, pull into this Chick-fil-A and go to the bathroom. So stop, park, walk up. The door's locked. I'm like, what the hell? The drive through was packed with people. I guess they don't have the inside open. Yeah. Then I to get back out to the highway, we had to turn the other way. And so then I pull into a BP.
00:41:14
Speaker
BP gas station. So I go inside. I'm like, I got to buy something. I'm like, I can't be that guy who just comes in and goes to the bathroom. If it was an outside bathroom, that would have been fine. But so I go in and I grab a so like a Diet Coke and pay for it. And I turn and big sign on the bathroom out of order. I'm like.
00:41:32
Speaker
So we get out, get back, do go down the opposite way. Turn back around. Yeah. Then I see a wah wah. Yeah. And I missed the turn because it was like some wacky thing where he had to like turn into like a strip mall. And then I'm like, what the hell? And I just couldn't find a place to go to the bathroom. Yeah. So I went from like 10 a.m. all the way. It was like 4 30 by the time we got back here.
00:41:56
Speaker
But I got really good at holding it. Yeah. Because, you know, sometimes you're on a job site and there just isn't a bathroom. No, I know. It's terrible. If the house is under construction or something, sometimes there's no port of John. I remember when I was a bike messenger, there would only be like one or two places that you could get into a bathroom. So you'd know exactly where those deliveries were. And you'd plan your whole
00:42:24
Speaker
Oh my God. Yeah. Have a buddy who he delivers payroll. Oh, that's right. And he's got a couple of spots. Same thing. Yeah. If you're if you're out out of doors, let's say, and in the city, you know, like where we delivered, you can't just go wherever you want. Yep.
00:42:42
Speaker
So we've the rules are be polite. Yeah. Don't do anything. You wouldn't want somebody doing in your house. There you go. It's the golden rule. It's the golden rule. You know what I just thought of the cutting board for the table for the RV.
00:43:08
Speaker
Oh, yeah, you could spill those beans if you want. Well, we won't use any names. How's that? That's fun. So so the shops out behind the house.
00:43:20
Speaker
You know, it's it's definitely what is about 40 feet or something from the house. Yeah. So we had this couple, you know, of middle age, whatever in their fifties, couple my age come to the shop and the wife asks if she can use the bathroom before she leaves.
00:43:39
Speaker
I say, sure, no problem. I only show you where it is. Walker in the house at the time we had Sammy and he's was an aggressive dog. So I had to go in there, you know, because he wouldn't let strangers in the house. I go in there and I can't remember what I needed to go back in the house for. But there was such a stink coming out of the bathroom. It was like the whole house smelled like shouldn't have had those enchiladas.
00:44:09
Speaker
back.
Job Site Bathroom Stories
00:44:11
Speaker
It was awful from this real prim proper on the outside woman. It was it was really like a real truckers truck stop kind of experience. And we've seen how the our perception has evolved
00:44:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, never judge a book by its cover and lots of ways. Well, that reminds me of a story. So worked on this house about when I was a finished carpenter, about let's say it was four years ago. Big. It was supposed to be a kitchen renovation turned into like a 4000 square foot addition to this house. You know, we're talking
00:44:56
Speaker
you know, almost a seven figure renovation. Oh, wait, seven figure? Yeah. Yeah, almost a seven, almost a million dollars worth of renovating. Six euros. So they're doing punch list and the who was it? It was the cabinet guys who did not the kitchen cabinets, but some built ins and stuff.
00:45:19
Speaker
They're actually right up the road, a bunch of hacks. I won't say who they are. If you're listening, you probably know. But I doubt they listen. So they had this guy who I hadn't seen with him a lot. He was there helping whoever the main guy was.
00:45:37
Speaker
How did this go about? I forget. He said something about using the bathroom. We're in the mudroom. I'm working in the garage. They're working in the mudroom. He said something about using the bathroom. And now I'm the lead finished carpenter. So it's the project manager. And then I'm sort of the next guy in charge. I'm the only guy there. I said, you're not going to use that bathroom inside. I said, there's a Port of John over there. He said something about it being too cold or something.
00:46:04
Speaker
So I leave. I had to go to the builders general to pick some stuff up to the supply house. I come back, go inside the mudroom and the housekeeper is like frantic mopping water and stuff up off the floor. Oh, gee, this guy took a shit clogged the toilet. Oh, my God. It overflowed, went through the floor, threw the sheetrock in the basement, ruined the whole ceiling. It was this whole like his
00:46:29
Speaker
It came out of the toilet. Turds were on the floor. Yeah. Oh, my God. What a nightmare. And he was like a real scummy white trash looking guy. And, you know, I had some choice words for them. Any back charging involved in this incident? I don't know what ultimately transpired because, you know, I wasn't privy to that kind of information, but I would hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, dude, I told you not to use that bathroom.
00:46:58
Speaker
We were talking about a multi-million dollar house here. This is a brand new powder room.
00:47:07
Speaker
I don't know what adjective to use. As colorful as both of our stories have been, the story we are not telling that only our former workmates will know of, it pales in comparison to the to the capper of all stories. I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. Does it involve socks?
00:47:36
Speaker
That guy's involved in too many of these stories. But more precisely, one where he never made it. Change your eating habits, that's what I'll say.
00:47:53
Speaker
Man, this really went off. It went downhill fast. Let's get to the next question. This is from one of our patrons, Colin, one of our Aussie listeners, Beaver Badger on Instagram.
Red Oak vs White Oak
00:48:09
Speaker
Red Oak. Why is it the ugly sister to White Oak? I have no interest in using it, but just curious to know. Yeah.
00:48:17
Speaker
You know, I think it just appearance speaks for itself. It's that that pinkish hue the. You know, especially most of us have seen it with that cathedral grain flats on. It it's just. It is the ugly sister. Yeah, I think a lot of it is perception because
00:48:47
Speaker
A lot of times you can't tell the difference between white oak and red oak. Some of them, yeah, I go, what are you looking at? It's just been that red oak has been used for so much ugly cabinetry that it has this stigma around it. Red oak or white oak floor, if it's got a darker stain, you really don't know the difference. I mean, you can tell if you're in the know, but
00:49:12
Speaker
Jim and Jane they got no fucking clue, but if you put the clear the clear on then you know Yeah, it's not there's it's not as nice as the golden huge. Yeah, and like quarter song red oak is pretty. Yeah So I think that's it. It's just been used for so many ugly things that it was that it gets a bad rap those big box Store cabinets and yeah, I mean even like the more quote-unquote custom cabinets in the 90s and and early 2000s, I guess I
00:49:42
Speaker
It must grow a little bit more abundantly because it's cheaper. Yeah. Or it might be cheaper because less people want it. Yeah. Supply and demand. So good on you, Colin, for not having an interest in using it. Keep that price down. Yeah. Have Red Oak in Australia.
00:50:02
Speaker
I don't know. I'll tell you the truth. I mean, I'm guessing that would have to be imported. Yeah. Yeah. I'm all for not like Sapele is the only thing that we use that's imported. I'm all for using what's around you. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like Australia's got some beautiful woods as Colin knows well because he goes out into the bush and gets it. I'd like to see some like cabinet jobs with indigenous woods. Yeah.
00:50:31
Speaker
Maybe Collin can share some photos with us. Yeah. All right. I think this is true. Do you have an American made shirt you like to wear? That's Jordan, Jack Pallet on Instagram is asking.
00:50:45
Speaker
I'm pretty sure our company shirts are American made, aren't they? Our first ones were. I don't remember. It was actually it was American Apparel were the brand of shirts, which were they were nice. The fabric was nice. I didn't like the fit. Yeah, they were like tight and long, which, you know, if you see me in person, I ain't gonna work.
00:51:08
Speaker
I'm short and wide. So I need a I need a wide shirt. Yeah. Yeah. Like I had like six inches of bunched up shirt at the bottom, which I hate. I hate that. So, yeah, I mean, we went with just Gil Dan made in I don't even know where Angledesh or something. Probably in India somewhere. Yeah.
00:51:32
Speaker
Yeah, we try to always support the American-made stuff. The t-shirts that we wear, it's available, but when you get them printed on, it narrows it down. I remember years ago, I bought a whole bunch of just plain t-shirts to wear to work with no printing on them, and I got made in America. But we're usually limited to the stock that the printers carry.
00:51:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And it's not to say that we couldn't probably find an American made shirt with a good fit. But then we're also getting into shirts being like twenty dollars a piece or something to just to have printed. That's right. And again, yeah. Well, we begin this rain where it doesn't look like it's raining, but you can hear it on the metal roof.
00:52:24
Speaker
Yeah. I think when we ordered those shirts originally there, they were about 20, $20 a piece cost. Yeah. So to be able to, you know, offer them to everybody on the website and stuff, it's just not, yeah, we couldn't, we couldn't charge, you know, by the time we boxed and sold, there'd be a $25 plus shipping or something. Who's paying 25 bucks for a shirt? Yeah, you can't. So, um, maybe if you know something out there, a supplier,
00:52:53
Speaker
We'd be happy to check it out. Yeah, I mean, 1620 does do. Yeah, they have their own brand of shirt and they'll do screen printing. Oh, but again, we're probably talking 35. Yeah, they're expensive because even the fabric is made. You know, that's the thing. A lot of these American shirts, the fabric is made overseas, too. So I'm where it's hard. You got to pick and choose your battles. I'm wearing those 1620 shorts that cost how they've been. They're good. Yeah, I got them very stretchy.
00:53:20
Speaker
I don't know because I bought them oversized so that I could actually wash them and dry them. All right. So I have to wear a belt with them. Do like a Chuck Norris, like kick sidekick. I could. Yeah. I tear something. No, I don't have one kick. Yeah. Yeah. Where my hundred and twenty eight dollars. Well, I have that gift certificate to sixteen to get something. So but I don't need any more pants. They are rugged. I mean, listen.
00:53:49
Speaker
You know, Jeff and I are not impressing anybody here. As long as I'm just working here in the shop, we blow them off with the compressor at the end of the day or brush them or vacuum them. And I hang them on a hook in the hallway and I put them on the next morning. Yeah. Yeah. If you're wearing your pants to work one day, you got problems.
00:54:08
Speaker
That's a waste of water. Everything else is clean. Yeah. But the shorts, you know, I don't have room in my dresser for six, six pairs of. Yeah. I have four pairs of work pants. I'm like, this is too many. Yeah. So they're totally durable and hold up to that kind of use where you wash them once a week. Yeah. If you have to like go to like a job site and it's like a finished house and I'll wear something else. Yeah. Just like just wash your pants when you get home and then wear fresh ones. You know, wear them fresh the next day. Yeah.
00:54:37
Speaker
So we don't really have any great recommendations. We've had them in and out of the shop. We've had some American t-shirts. Yeah. But that's it. You just got to look. If you type, you know, American made in USA t-shirt, you can get a cotton shirt. But there's something about a lot of the fit on them that's not. Yeah. Because they're made for like a good. If you got a nice slim build, you'll be all right.
00:55:04
Speaker
So that might say something about us. Yeah. Yeah. We'll give a little shout out to Upstate Merch, who does our screen printing. They're up in Whitney Point, New York. They use all eco-friendly inks and stuff. Plastisol. And I mean, they make shirts for some big name comedians. And I know they make them for like the Modern Craftsmen podcast and stuff like that.
00:55:28
Speaker
Also, I've been thinking about this, like if you guys want a run of American Craftsman podcast shirts, not Green Street Joinery shirts.
00:55:37
Speaker
let us know we can maybe we'll set up like a pre-order yeah we'll get a gauge of how many and then we'll set up an order they have a pretty small minimum I think right that's 12 yeah we need to get shirts anyway for the for the for Green Street yeah yes let us know I was gonna say you can go on their website and they have a list of all the different shirts that they carry to be printed on cool
00:56:05
Speaker
We got another one here from a patron, another Aussie. Oh, wow. Miles. Miles Thompson, Eat, Drink, Wine Guy on Instagram. What did you do before you had the festival domino for joinery? Loose tenons, traditional mortise and tenon dovetails, or was there another method you preferred? And what are your thoughts on Dalles? It seems that they get a bad rap, but a lot of great woodworkers use them and understand that Krenov was certainly a proponent.
00:56:31
Speaker
That's a good question. Yeah. Um, me personally, before the Domino and even with the Domino, just the regular traditional mortise and tenon is it, because if I'm thinking Domino, it's a style of, you know, joint that is going to have a function and that's where the, the traditional mortise and tenon will take its place because that's sort of what the Domino does. It's right. Just an easier way to do,
00:56:58
Speaker
Right, so if I'm thinking mortise and tenon is going to work here, it would be traditional or domino. I never did doweling. I never had a predisposition towards it as far as it being like a bad or good way of doing things.
00:57:18
Speaker
No, I mean, there's plenty of great furniture that's been built with dials. Yeah. I never really existed in like a predominant world. As crazy as that sounds. What did you do when we had the dial up phones? Yeah, when you used to have to unplug the phone to get on the Internet.
00:57:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not really qualified to answer this question. That's funny. No, the domino was a revelation. I mean, I got a domino in like maybe 2014. I only started as a carpenter in 2013, 2012.
00:57:55
Speaker
I didn't know of loose mortise and tenon joinery. Yeah I mean that definitely I mean people did do just slip tenons like that which is a domino just cut with whatever a router by hand and actually Freddie he I think we might have talked about it last week that oscillating mortiser oh yeah that's like that's where they got the idea I mean yeah if they didn't it was a total like in a vacuum kind of thing but
00:58:24
Speaker
It's like a mortising machine, but the chisel oscillates and it cuts this square, you know, wide square thing in one shot. Then you could just make a slip tenon and pop it in. I wish that they would come up with something like that for the domino so that it'll be way easier to make. Obviously, they want to make money on the dominoes, but this way you can make your own dominoes very easily. Yeah. Yeah, I would like if it had more edges on it instead of the rounded, I think.
00:58:50
Speaker
Yeah, if it was square, you just rip it, plane it. Yeah. Now we can make them out of wood and that matches or complements what we're doing. You could glue it in and then do a through tenon. Yeah. Like you could work in a design where now it's got to be a hidden thing. Yep. So do you have any feeling on the domino on dowels at all?
00:59:15
Speaker
I mean, I just I don't really have any experience with dowels other than, you know, like 32 millimeter cabinet systems and stuff like that. Yeah, I think your point about the red oak being part of lots of really crappy furniture. I think that's where the dowels got lumped in as well.
00:59:34
Speaker
Yeah, the Dow was, you know, the predecessor to the Domino kind of in the same way that the Domino gets a bad rap sometimes of being like a cheater's way of doing right. The Dow gets the same. The same bad rap and there are Dowling machines like a Domino. Yeah, like I know Lamello makes one.
00:59:54
Speaker
But drilling a hole and then putting a Dallas center and you know, it's kind of like it seems like an inaccurate kind of thing. That was my kind of impression when I was starting out. It's like, I don't think I want to follow this. They do have jigs. You know, I know the W brand makes one, the red one. And, you know, like Miles Craft. I know they make one.
01:00:17
Speaker
But yeah, I'm living in a post-domino existence. Yeah, you youngsters. Yeah. Got it made. Just wait till the new thing comes out. Well, do you have any more ideas for plans? Coffee table. Ooh, is that... Again, somebody's reading our mind. Yeah. That's Jordan again, Jack Pallett.
01:00:41
Speaker
Yes, we actually we were talking about this in the clubhouse on was it maybe yesterday? Yeah, time is hard to measure now. Speaking of clubhouse, if anybody needs an invite, let me know. It's iPhone only right now. Still, I know they're they're supposed to open up the beta to Android next month. But I have a bunch of invites that threw me like at one shot. They're like, here's 20 invites. I'm like,
01:01:04
Speaker
Yeah, I got a handful as well. Yeah. Yeah. So hit us up. If you want to get on, you can, you know, go to in the shop, which is a club where a lot of makers meet all different, you know, people who are just, you know, do it once a month to people who are full time like us, which is cool. You know, you get to socialize and pick people's brain and, you know, talk about woodworking or, you know, like wanting to date the mailman.
01:01:31
Speaker
That's what we were talking about earlier. Yeah, there's some networking that's happened, but mostly it's a support group, I would say, for people who are craftspeople. And in today's day and age, you're swimming upstream.
01:01:48
Speaker
So yeah, we got to talking about plans and the dilemma that we have is that everything we build for the most part is so specific for the given application and space. User-specific, client-specific. That they don't really translate into something that would be like commercially viable for just people to build.
01:02:11
Speaker
So that's been a struggle. It's definitely something that we'd like to do. We have the one set of plans on the website if anybody's interested. It's a, well, three sets. It's an Adirondack chair, a footstool, matching footstool and matching side table. You can either buy them all separate or buy them all as one.
01:02:27
Speaker
So we do have that. But the instructions take a shockingly long amount of time to put together. Yeah, you're talking about like an entire day just to write the written. Yeah, you're trying to think about all the stuff you take for granted as and you got a proofread and have somebody else read it. And, you know, like this makes sense. Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's a lot of work. You know, like we haven't made a profit on the
01:02:54
Speaker
Not even close. It's not a for-profit kind of thing. It's just a sharing experience. So definitely an idea that we'd like to pursue, Jordan, but it's probably going to be a slow rollout. Maybe we'll try and do another one soon.
01:03:13
Speaker
Thanks for asking, though. Yeah, I love the interest. And if you have ideas that you'd like to, you know, build and you just need some help, reach out to. Oh, yeah. You know, we can throw some sketch ups your way. Jordan actually bought the Adirondack plans and he says he's going to build them. Oh, man, I love that. We haven't seen that yet in the flesh yet. Nope.
01:03:39
Speaker
I mean, we've built them that the reason we picked the Adirondacks was that was just the very first Adirondacks or out on the porch on the deck. Yeah. And then I had done a lot of work for this family. And, you know, when you're young and and I got a lot of energy, you do stuff like this. I decided I was going to make this guy's dad a set of Adirondack chairs as a gift.
01:04:09
Speaker
I got a week. Yeah. What's a week? But they, they became some like, it was the only thing I'd ever sold. Well, I didn't sell them. The only thing I'd ever built where people's asked me specifically to make that thing for them. Yeah. And I, I sold three or four sets to people all over the country, a ship dome and
01:04:35
Speaker
Delivered them to like South Jersey. And so that was why we chose the Adirondack chair. Yeah, it's a Like a craftsman take on it. Yeah, and it's a you know, it's a common piece of furniture and some of that people, you know would build
01:04:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's not difficult to build. You could build it with hand tools if you had to. And it's something that should last you, you know, good 20 years. I mean, more if you take care of them, they should last indefinitely. We haven't taken care of those out there. They're, they're over 20 years old.
01:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, I was telling Jordan he was sending me some pictures of some oak that he had white oak. I was like, yeah, I'm thinking about using this. I said, I got to send you. I forgot to. But I said, I got to send you the pictures of the white oak one that Rob built that has no finish on. It's been outside for 20 years.
01:05:26
Speaker
I mean, it's it's great. It's fine. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it. You can. It's just great. You're just starting to see some of the glue joints. I like the bigger pieces, but they're not splitting apart or anything. So that's a that's a testament. Overbilled. Overbilled under profit. Take those screws out. Got our next question here. All right. This one came in via email.
01:05:57
Speaker
I'm in my mid-40s, self-employed as a bathroom modeler. I'm starting to transition into woodworking as a lateral to eventually move out of remodeling.
Advice for Transitioning to Woodworking
01:06:06
Speaker
Over the last year, I've been building a shop, acquiring tools and equipment, and started various projects. At some point, I would hope to partner with another person. My thought is to just keep honing my craft and building a shop. Do you have advice for me to implement over the next five to 10 years? That's from Kevin at House Evolution, H-A-U-S House.
01:06:27
Speaker
There's a couple layers to that question. I'll talk about I'll pick one point I'll say partnering with another person. That's probably going to be your most difficult
01:06:45
Speaker
portion of this. And it's going to require a good amount of luck, too. Yeah, it's not a big pool of people to pull from to, you know, find another like minded crafts person. Right. Who, you know, is doing the same thing as you.
01:07:02
Speaker
right cuz you're not open in a deli and you bought you know you where it's just something that two people just have to show up and get along yeah this is you have to find somebody like jeff uh in tone that has the right skill set and now you're gonna work in this
01:07:21
Speaker
I mean, as laid back as it is, it's a pressure packed environment to run a small business that sort of goes against the grain, sorry for that pun, of what our society is really consuming, which is mass marketed, mass produced, consumable disposable goods. Like that fast casual restaurant.
01:07:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's fast casual. No, it's fast food, it's junk. It all comes from Cisco on a truck. I mean, it's all Cisco. That burger was microwaved, sir. So that's something you have to be on the lookout and start cultivating before you're even
01:08:05
Speaker
at the point of launching a business. If you're lucky enough to have somebody in mind, start dreaming and planning with that person now and that will tell you whether or not you're suited. Yeah, I'd say it's also the biggest risk in the equation because you know that if you're running a business as a bathroom modeler, you're adept enough to make a living and that
01:08:28
Speaker
And, you know, you always have that to fall back on, but you introduce a partner into the thing and, you know, things get complicated and, you know, it's not as simple as well. You know, the woodworking projects aren't coming in this month. We're just going to pick up a bath remodel job. Right. Right. You might have to find somebody that could also do that. Right. And you never know who you'd run into as far as what their skill set might be. But
01:08:58
Speaker
That's a biggie. The idea of partnering with another person might be because maybe you don't think you could do it by yourself and working by yourself has its advantages and disadvantages. But if you're tackling small projects,
01:09:15
Speaker
Things that don't require a lot of physical strength and things like that that two people are needed for. I would suggest maybe starting by yourself. Yeah.
01:09:30
Speaker
Yeah, you know, and if you are building small things like if you don't have, you know, machine redundancies, you're going to be on top of each other like you're both making cutting boards. How are you both going to do that at the same time? Yeah, somebody's got you might need two sanders to this to that.
01:09:50
Speaker
Tips for sort of getting yourself there. Well, if you're doing bad three models now, start selling your customers vanities. Yeah. I mean, that's going to be the easiest way for you to get into that and start turning it from just a dream to a profit, a profitable part of your business.
01:10:11
Speaker
Even if you have to you know break even or take a little bit of a loss loss leader as they call it to build the vanity.
01:10:22
Speaker
It's going to get you closer to that business that you're trying to transition into. And maybe this year you're taking a loss and next year you're making a tiny bit and the next year you're making a little bit more. That way you can invest that money that was going into the pockets of Home Depot or Ferguson or whoever back into yourself. You can reinvest that into the shop and get a better setup.
01:10:47
Speaker
you know, so when you do make the full jump in five to 10 years, you're you're better off. And he starts looking for like a shop space. He's probably got a two car garage that's filled with tools on the side. And he probably pulls his car and I'm not sure. I mean, he said he's building a shop. So if you're building a shop and you have that luxury,
01:11:12
Speaker
I would try, as we do, purchasing a tool at a time. Not get too hung up on doing it all at once and get it functioning all at once, but invest in the right tool, the right machine, so you're buying once.
01:11:31
Speaker
So I see now I remember I reached back out to Kevin to clarify some things. And he said, yes, it would be full time woodworking. At some point I would enjoy working in my own shop 40 hours a week. I'm very interested in building doors. Samurai Carpenter on YouTube has been a big help. And I have followed some of his techniques on some successful door projects already. So, yeah, I mean, you're definitely gone.
01:11:57
Speaker
going in the right direction if you're you're already taking on projects and yeah I mean the only the only thing you're the next step is just booking out right I mean that's really it and you know like we did sometimes you have to the wind is really picking up here you just have to take the leap and I mean that's what we did it doesn't always work out well as far as tools
01:12:23
Speaker
Dust collection's a biggie that people often overlook. Just throw that out there. We just got a severe thunderstorm warning. It's always good when you have a metal roof on the building. You can tell what's going on up there. So I think that's about it. Acquiring tools and equipment. Yeah.
Garden Plans and Excitement
01:12:46
Speaker
I would say don't get in over your head as far as purchases. Try and stay, you know, solvent. And that way if, you know, things slow down, you don't have all these bills that are better to do. And just keep plugging away. Yeah. I say more power to you. Yeah. Good luck. Let us know how it's going. Yeah. Yeah. Got no one here from Jordan. Yeah. It's, it's just for you, Jeff wants to know what you're planting in your garden bucks.
01:13:15
Speaker
That's, uh, that's not my department. That's the wife's job. I hope there's tomatoes in the future. Yeah. So I'll probably be, I know she has now in the house, uh, not tomatoes, cause those are easier to just buy the plants. She's got beets and a bunch of different lettuce. Uh, asparagus, maybe. Um, that's a perennial actually asparagus. Uh, what the hell else does she have?
01:13:43
Speaker
Peppers, cucumbers, peppers. I don't think we have cucumbers right now. Cucumbers never grow right, I feel like in the garden. Well, what can I look forward to over here? That's what I want to know. Well, how much? You didn't get anything last year. The birds ate it all. We have a blueberry plant. We have a raspberry plant, a strawberry plant. I definitely want some hot peppers, some jalapenos, some maybe habaneros.
01:14:13
Speaker
But yeah, I'm hands off. I let her handle that. I built a garden box, but that was I'm killing five birds with one stone on that one. I'm getting rid of the dirt. I'm making my wife happy. That's worth three. Yeah. Yeah. Three stones right there.
01:14:34
Speaker
So we're going to go with the regular vegetable routine. Yeah. Yeah. And we're, we're doing a little composting, getting ready for the growing season. I wonder if people can hear all that stuff going on. I don't think so. Yeah. So pretty loud though. This is our last question today. Yeah. That's from Corey CT woodwork on Instagram.
First Woodworking Projects
01:14:55
Speaker
What was your very first project that got you into woodworking?
01:15:00
Speaker
Well, I guess going back to, you know, being a finished carpenter, I built my first walk-in closet.
01:15:08
Speaker
Which was, oh man, it was about a 150 square foot closet. All on site. You know, all three quarter plywood and probably poplar face frames and stuff. So that was really the first thing that I did. If you can call that woodworking.
01:15:31
Speaker
Well, I'll go even low. I'll lower the bar than the TV stand. That was my first project, although it didn't get power surges. Yeah, it didn't. That's not where I thought I would be a woodworker. The first thing I built that I made me like kind of get interested in doing it.
01:15:52
Speaker
was something a little bit like that. I was still a chef at Taste in San Francisco and we needed these cubbies for everybody to put their backpacks and stuff in and I volunteered to build it and I borrowed one of those old radial arm saws and old DeWalt, you know that kind of looked like the spaceship kind of stuff.
01:16:16
Speaker
and I put a dado blade on it and I was like making so it was all just out of like CDX type of plywood but I had dadoed where all the cross members were going to go and I thought I was really something and I built that and painted it and I thought man this was cool I want to do this you know I
01:16:39
Speaker
cooked for years after that and then taught even after that before I became a full time woodworker. But doing that made me realize I had found something that gave me you know, this this inner sense of joy and peace.
01:17:01
Speaker
yeah the old radio with a dado i know frank still does that how many guys though yeah it was great yeah that's a norm yeah it's like a norm move yeah that's probably where i saw it you know i was the time where i would watch everything that norm did on pbs and and i remember i buy my first my very first tools
01:17:24
Speaker
And that big three horsepower router is at three and a quarter or whatever those big Porter cables are. Now, I think that was my first purchase after that. Nice. So that was it. Very humble beginnings. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the best way.
Kitsune's Forager Beer Discussion
01:17:43
Speaker
So let's talk about the beer of the week. Yeah. Hey, another heavy hitter from Kitsune, the forager. That was good. Really was. And as we found, you don't have to live in Arizona to get your hands on this stuff. No. Find him on Instagram. Hit him up. He'll tell you how to get it. Or you could just ship it right to your door. Yeah.
01:18:08
Speaker
You're saying we got special treatment? Yeah, I'm not sure of the, you know, the legality of that. Oh, that's right. But you can always ask. Yeah. Yeah, I know. We might start something there, right? I mean, you can ship here. I just I don't know what the I see here that this was brewed at Simple Machine Brewing Company, 701 West Deer Valley Road.
01:18:34
Speaker
When I was a kid and lived in Arizona, I went to Dia Valley Junior High School on Dia Valley Road. Really? I wonder if that school's still there and I wonder how close. We're going to have to like. We're looking up on the Patreon. Google this thing and see how.
01:18:53
Speaker
how many degrees of separation there are. Yeah. That'll give us something to talk about on there. Yeah.
Patron Appreciation and Projects
01:18:59
Speaker
Um, want to thank our gold tier patrons. Very much. Jerry Green.
01:19:07
Speaker
David Murphy, Manny Sirianni, Dustin Fayer, Adam Pothast, David Schumacher. Schumacher. David, I'm sorry. I can't. I can't get it out of my head. And Colin Lai. I was going to say, what were you going to say? I was going to add that Manny is going to be working with us on a project. Oh, yeah. Well, let's get that deposit first. Yeah. It's that job got complicated real quick. Oh, yeah, because of the timing. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
01:19:38
Speaker
There's always something. There's always a monkey wrench. I know. When you think everything is lined up, it turns out it's not.
Patreon Promotion and Sign-off
01:19:45
Speaker
But I wanted to say, you know, if you guys want to support the podcast and get a little extra podcast every week and info, you can join the Patreon. We do an after show that we put up on Thursday morning. That's like a half hour or an hour where we talk about all kinds of different stuff.
01:20:04
Speaker
We're gonna dive deeper into some stuff. I think on there today probably and At the beginning you probably heard From Montana tool you put in the the coupon code American craftsman. You're gonna get 10% off your order So that's cool. Yeah, that's just for the patreons. There's anybody Wow
01:20:26
Speaker
And they're already priced pretty fairly. I mean if yeah, if you shop around you'll see The prices are right in line if not less than Made in Montana. Yeah made in America. We're still working out the The dollars and frequency, but we're gonna be giving away Montana brand tools to our patrons. That's oh, that's what yeah, we're not taking any
01:20:48
Speaker
We're not getting paid for these ads. We got rid of the ads that we were getting paid for, but we want to pass it on. We're going to give away tools to our patrons. Yeah. From Montana, because they're great tools. So yeah. Nice give back. Yeah. All right. Everybody be well out there. Take care of yourselves and each other. We'll see you next week. All right. Episode 34. Ciao.
01:21:29
Speaker
Ain't no shame, but there's been a chain