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Comics Catch-Up 066: Sinister War
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Introduction and Zencaster Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
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Show Premise and Sinister War Introduction
00:01:00
Speaker
hey there. It's been a little while. Let's catch up. This is Comics Catch Up, the show where Chris Simms and I, Matt Wilson, we catch up on the comics that we didn't read the first time around for whatever reason.
00:01:23
Speaker
And this time, it's not a great one. Yeah, I mean, i think I think you say for some reason, I think we can now know what the reason is. I don't know if this was our motivation at the time, but certainly, certainly it's a good reason.
00:01:47
Speaker
ah This is, okay, we were sent this story from Isaac Janssen's a little while ago, as in every story ever submission. And Isaac said that they had never read this comic, but it was
Overview of Sinister War's Complexity
00:02:07
Speaker
buck wild. So here's what happened. This is Sinister War from 2021 during the Nick Spencer run on Spider-Man. Okay.
00:02:18
Speaker
A run that I did not read for the most part, and that reading this didn't do anything to resolve. There's a four-part miniseries called Sinister War. That's what we read. we We did not read the crossover. We read the core series. We read the core series. Now which apparently we should have everything you need to know to follow the actual story. like and that should does have for It does have a somewhat complete story, and which we'll talk about. i would say I would say I agree with the word complete.
00:03:00
Speaker
I do not agree with the word story.
00:03:05
Speaker
ah So, Isaac's submission, and what got us interested in this, was the theory that apparently they fixed sins passed by getting Mephisto involved and tying it to the Gathering of Five.
Challenges of Ranking Sinister War
00:03:19
Speaker
That's not really in the four-part miniseries. Yeah, there might have been there might have been something along those lines somewhere else. Mephisto shows up at the beginning And then at the end, and then like at the end just goes, well, guess Spider-Man one. Yeah. That's it. Now, okay. With that in mind, I will tell you later what happens in the issues of Amazing Spider-Man that does do that. Okay. Because I went back and looked and read through those
00:03:59
Speaker
to like find out what on earth Isaac was talking about. That said, to rank this on the Every Story Ever list, I don't think you need to have read the Amazing Spider-Man issues. They're all exactly as good slash bad as the Sinister War miniseries. I feel like the way we have the list set up, the way that we are chipping away at the marble,
00:04:32
Speaker
it is like crossovers like this are kind of the hardest thing to rank. A lot of times, yeah. You want to rank DC one million and like green arrow one million separately. You want there to be like a story and then like, but because we want to be able to rank like the ah like the ah Legends tie-in of action comics separately or of of Invasion or something. like We want to rank the tie-ins that are in the regular series, which are often more self-contained stories. like like You could rank the Nuff said issue of New X-Men separately. I mean, there was no Nuff said core series, but you you get it. It's an event. that It tied into something.
00:05:28
Speaker
It's yeah, it's technically part of I believe it's casand forlinction Yeah, it's part of the Cassandra Nova is for a sanctioned story but Right you there's certain things you want to be able to rank separately
Character Dynamics: Mary Jane and Mysterio
00:05:43
Speaker
for sure. Yeah. Yeah, but with this it's like That means that you also have to be able to rank the core series separately which means the core series has to be able to stand on its own as its own kind of story and
00:05:58
Speaker
Buddy, I don't know if things happened in the tie-in issues, because there ain't a whole lot that happens in this. Like, for this to be our first comments to catch up of the new year is going to be weird, I think, primarily because I feel like we can do the summary part of it in about five minutes.
00:06:25
Speaker
Well, let's do that now then. Okay. Spider-Man fights a bunch of guys. Yeah. To, to get a little more into detail. Peter and Mary Jane, who I guess in an expensive run are dating because this pre-fall they seem to be together. Yeah. Is this why people were so mad about Paul? I don't know. Because they were together in this because buddy,
00:06:53
Speaker
There ain't nothing going on here. it is it who Were people shocked that maybe Spider-Man's love life didn't play pan out in the happiest possible way? Because you're getting worked, bro. Yeah. Also,
The Sinister Six and Spider-Man
00:07:08
Speaker
it's worth mentioning that Nick Spencer is the writer of this and of all the amazing Spider-Man issues. The art is by partially Mark Bagley,
00:07:23
Speaker
and partially Ed Bresson.
00:07:27
Speaker
ah Two very distinct styles from one another. And Mark Bagley is as good a hand as always in these issues. Sure is. No better, no worse. He's he's Mark Bagley as you like him. Yeah. ah Ed Bresson does a a pretty good job on the art. Okay, so.
00:07:52
Speaker
Peter and Mary Jane go to a premiere of Mary Jane's new movie, which Peter doesn't know, but apparently everybody else does, that this dude who directed the movie is Mysterio. Certainly MJ knows. Certainly MJ knows. And Mysterio knows that Peter is Spider-Man. Yeah. ah That's a thing that trashed me up.
00:08:22
Speaker
Because like Mary Jane, when when everything starts to go down, ah and Spider-Man is there, Mary Jane's like, Peter, Mysterio's not bad. Mysterio's good, actually, Peter. yeah And I'm like, MJ, you can't be calling him Peter. In this situation, that's that ain't that ain't gonna work, bud.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, that get that whole Mysterio Mary Jane thing gets resolved in the amazing spider-man issues, which I'll tell you about later sure Anyway this oh also his name is cage McKnight which Raw come on, you know, that's a fake day Peter if you don't know that that's a fake name. I don't know what to tell you Anywho The premiere is attacked by many different Sinister, Sixes Sinister, which include Doc Ock's actual Sinister Six, pretty much the original Sinister Six, as I recall. Uh, but without Mysterio. But without Mysterio, yeah. They've added, who's the addition? Lizard? Uh, yeah, Lizard's definitely there. Yeah.
00:09:42
Speaker
Was Lizard in the original group or no? I can't remember. I think so. Okay, then it's probably- I think Lizard might've been a little bit busy doing certain things. Well, wait, it's only five, so they're trying to get Mysterio back in the Sinister Six,
Kindred's Role and Storytelling Issues
00:09:57
Speaker
that's right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. The first one that shows up is the Savage Six. The Savage Six, which is- Which is Vulture, who was in the original Sinister Six. Oh, right, okay. It's Vulture Rhino Tarantula.
00:10:13
Speaker
Stegron uh-huh Scorpion looking rough scorpion looking Scorpion looking like he's been sick and also just woke up Scorpion looking like he's right out of John Burns spider-man chapter one ah Wow a a damning indictment Yes, and ah King Cobra who we love around here, but yeah um and Interesting group and then more sixes sinister Show up right to hit the sinister six which is which is Doc Ock Craven Craven one or maybe Craven two. I am unsure of how Craven works I've read so many spider-man comics and I literally do not know how Craven works anymore Doc Ock electro Sandman Craven and the lizard
00:11:10
Speaker
I think Kraven now is Alexei Kravenov. Okay. Because Sergei, I think his death more or less stuck, but i could be I could be totally wrong about that. Then the sinister syndicate shows up, which there's seven people in. Yes. which they're all They're all women. Yes. Hang on, there's another one.
00:11:36
Speaker
Oh, it's the Wild Pack, right? There's them, the superior foes of Spider-Man get back together for this, which is an nick spencer was an expensive joint. And they don't they not only try to find and kill Spider-Man, they end up fighting each other too. Yeah.
00:12:00
Speaker
Uh, the wild pack is, it's not Silver Sables wild pack. It's Foreigner, Jack O'Lantern, Slide with a Y, huh Taskmaster, Black Ant, who I, that's Eric O'Grady, right? i I don't know where Eric O'Grady ended up, but. And then I don't know who this other guy is. I think maybe it's, it's Scorcher? Uh, Black Ant is in fact, Eric O'Grady. Yes.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah, ah the the sinister photos of Spider-Man are, of course, Speed Demon, ah Shocker, Boomerang, ah those guys, you know. Overdrive is is now with them. Beetle's k not, because Beetle's in with the sinister Syndicate, which is Electro 2, Beetle 2, White Rabbit, ah Lady Octopus,
00:13:00
Speaker
right The... The scorpion who's not Monica Ravicini's daughter? Scorpia. Scorpia. Scorpia. And then again, I do not know who this other person is. It's a trapster. Okay. Or it's a trapster. I guess it's trapster too. It's not Payspot Pete. It's not Payspot Pete. It's a different trapster. And then their secret... Their secret, extra remember, Craven 3. Ava Cravenoff, yeah. Yeah.
00:13:32
Speaker
There's also a group that doesn't show up until issue three that is a bunch of dead people, question mark? Yeah, who kind who get like teased at the end of two issues of this? I think they're teased twice and don't actually do anything in this. Right, they are Grey Gargoyle, ah hu Living Laser, Whirlwind,
00:14:02
Speaker
Juggernaut and Morlin. Was not aware that any of them had been dead. and I think Ray Gargoyle
Spider-Man's Agency and Retconning Sin's Past
00:14:10
Speaker
died. Maybe the idea is that not all of them are dead, just Sin Eater is dead. Okay. But Sin Eater is brought back to life. And who's this guy who looks like Nimrod? That's Living Laser? That's Living Laser, yeah. Okay. Folks, I've read so many comics.
00:14:31
Speaker
I read Marvel Comics every week. We talk about them not infrequently on this show. There's shit going on here from three years ago that I'm like, I do not know who this is. Most of what we recap so far is what happens in issue one. Issue two is more fighting between the Sinister's Six and trying to kill Spider-Man.
00:14:58
Speaker
Issue three is also more of that. Yes. With more people just showing up. Yeah. Issue four is doctor Dr. Octopus getting rid of the mind control that they are all under and allowing Spider-Man to leave.
00:15:20
Speaker
Yeah, and then the the the guy who's behind it, Kindred. Kindred. You know, the embraced. not like He does not have a like face-to-face confrontation with Spider-Man. And Spider-Man doesn't solve the problem. And then Mephisto's like, well, I guess Spider-Man's alive. See ya, Doctor Strange. Because those two were just watching all this shit go down. Well, they're in like some weird hell casino betting on what's going to happen to Spider-Man.
00:15:49
Speaker
Mephisto and Dr. Strange are doing that. Yes, now, so it's a lot of just like these groups of villains fighting Spider-Man and each other, because Kindred wants them to get Spider-Man. Uh-huh. So Kindred is this guy who has like these weird c centipedes crawling all over him all the time, or like they're really big. He looks like if Baron Zemo Uh-huh. Was Kang, was Maggot, was a zombie. Kinda, yeah. he's He's like the mummy from the mummy, but with centipedes instead of scarabs. I wish he was like the mummy from the mummy, Matt. Yeah. so So... Well, now, I'm going to ask you a question. I read this entire story. Yep. Don't get it twisted.
00:16:48
Speaker
and think I didn't read this entire story, Matt, because I did. hu um but no but Is Okay. Are we told at some point that it's Harry Osborn? You are meant to think it's Harry Osborn. Okay. But the revelation that will come up in the issues of Amazing Spider-Man to come are that it's not Harry Osborn. In fact, Kindred is two people, and they are the kids from Sin's past. Okay. That's... That's wild. It's Gabriel Stacy and Sarah Stacy.
00:17:38
Speaker
That's... That's wild, and I'm gonna go ahead and say... Perhaps not a good idea. They have tricked Peter and MJ into thinking that Kindred is Harry.
00:17:57
Speaker
ah Okay, okay, okay. To what end? Well, they are obsessed with making both Peter and Mary Jane Watson pay for their sins. That comes up often through this, right? It does come up with their, like, he keeps on saying, i'm like, I want Peter to pay for his sins. His sins passed, that is. His sins passed, yeah. The problem is, Sinister War, that this is the point I was going to make about the Sinister War four-part series. It is like the 2021 Spider-Man version.
00:18:32
Speaker
of a 2006 Detective Comics crossover. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Doesn't this feel like infinite crisis? Where there's just a bunch of shit going on, and a bunch of characters on the page fighting each other, and you're like, what the fuck is going on? Uh-huh. That's how I felt about it. Here's what I...
00:19:01
Speaker
Here's how I felt reading it. This was the comparison that I made. This is like reading only the cutscenes from the Super Nintendo version of Maximum Carnage. Which are taken from the comic.
00:19:21
Speaker
But, like, you only have, like like, you don't have any of the things in the middle. You just have, like, meanwhile at Ravencroft, and it all comes in, like, a weird thing and it doesn't look quite right. That's what this is to me. Because, like, a bunch of stuff happens, but nothing happens.
00:19:41
Speaker
And it boggles my mind that like at the end of this four issue crossover that's all about Spider-Man fighting everybody. like With Peter talking like he reads Amazing Spider-Man, Peter's like, damn, King Snake, have I ever fought you? I think I fought you once.
00:20:01
Speaker
Like, yeah that shit's wild. But then at the end of it, Doc Ock's like, yeah, what's up? I'm Doc Ock. I fixed it so that nobody has a weird zombie ah worms in their brains anymore. And Peter's like, hey, thank you. And then fucking bounces. And and Doc Ock's like, I didn't do it for you. Yeah, like, do we not have, like, hey, Pete, maybe some follow up questions.
00:20:30
Speaker
you You might need to ask, okay, well, who's this guy? And what's his deal? Because I would not, and first of all, there's like 40, there are are like 40 characters in this comic. At one point, Peter says, ah like when the superior foes turn, like make a face turn again, ah Peter's like, oh, it's like seven of us against 30.
00:20:56
Speaker
And like you know what's great is um captions that say a person's name. And you know what's not in this. That is, captions that say a person's name. The reason that when we listed off everybody, and I was like, I do not know who this is, is because they are not identified on the page. They are not, that is true. I was able to get everybody else from memory.
00:21:19
Speaker
Because I've read a ah lot of these things, and I would say i I have a better than average ability to recognize obscure Marvel Comics characters. I think matt i don't think that's controversial for me to say that. I'm not bragging. The only area where I might have an edge on you is in Spider-Man comics.
00:21:44
Speaker
There was a period where I read every single Spider-Man comic that came out for like a decade. Bad or good, I read them all. Sin's Past was the story that made me stop. And so I was especially interested to find out what happened in the story, only to find that in the Sinister War miniseries, the Sin's Past stuff doesn't happen.
00:22:14
Speaker
But, Nick Spencer clearly had a checklist of things he thought, I'm gonna fix these things about Spider-Man. And did these things in the Amazing Spider-Man issues between these. Okay. Alright.
Sinister War Conclusion: Love and Kindred's Defeat
00:22:30
Speaker
Remember how Mephisto committed suicide in the pages of Tangled Web? That happened in Daredevil. Oh, that right that's right. That did happen in Daredevil. Kevin Smith did that.
00:22:44
Speaker
Right, and but then there was an issue of Tangled Web where he came back, I think, or talked about it, I forget. sure But nonetheless, um this tries to fix that and bring Mysterio back. Instead of just bringing Mysterio back, which is what I think previous writers had done, in Amazing Spider-Man number 71,
00:23:06
Speaker
Mephisto explains, not Mephisto, Mysterio. Mysterio explains to Mary Jane that he did really go to actual hell, and while he was there, he made a deal with Harry Osborn to come back to life. Okay.
00:23:27
Speaker
Because he thinks that Kindred is Harry Osborn, he goes back to the Sinister Six. as a way of, like, as a make good, as a way of showing that he owes something to Harry. Okay. All right? That happens in number 71. In Amazing Spider-Man 72, there is an explanation ah for oh why Norman Osborn became the Green Goblin
00:24:03
Speaker
and it blames it on Mephisto. Okay. it's nas that It's not because Norman Osborn was just like a bad dude who drove himself yeah insane with Goblin Serum? Right. Okay. All right. The Harry Osborn of this is revealed to be an AI in Europe. Gotta count the fingers. Yes.
00:24:33
Speaker
Kindred and Kindred Unmasks to reveal ah that ah at first she it seems like it's Gwen Stacy, but it's Sarah Stacy. Okay.
00:24:50
Speaker
The Harry Osborn AI. ah Can I stop you and ask you a question? Yes. When she is revealed and you think she's Gwen Stacy, is she wearing her hairband like she is in since past when she takes off her mask and she is wearing like a Gwen Stacy costume? Like the little hairband and everything? She is wearing the hairband. Love it. She is wearing the hairband. That's like so bad that it does loop around to me kind of like respecting the hustle.
00:25:29
Speaker
Because recognizing that like, well, we can't just get John or Mita to come in here and draw her, so everybody knows. Okay, here's the retconning of sins past. The AI, the Harry Osborn AI, ah tells Norman that Sarah and Gabriel Stacy, for the kids from sins past, were in fact created by Harry
00:25:59
Speaker
yeah As a way of fucking with Peter and Norman. Okay.
00:26:09
Speaker
Okay. So- Like when Harry was the Green Goblin? Well, Harry came back to life during Brand New Day. But since past happened before that,
00:26:25
Speaker
Yes. I, I guess it had last thing to happen before brand new day. It it was, it it was when Harry was green goblin. It was when Harry was green goblin. Okay. Sure. Sure. Sure. But he knew Norman was alive. Norman's a alive. Norman's alive. That's pretty, that's, I thought you'd enjoy that. Harry explains or the Harry AI, AI explains to Norman that The kids from since past were not Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn's children. They were clones that Harry Osborn made okay to mess with so to mess with Peter and Norman, to make them both feel shitty. Just to make them feel shitty? Yes.
00:27:21
Speaker
so kindred Gabriel and Sarah are working for the Harry AI to continue to fuck with Peter because Harry is trying to attack Peter from the grave. Okay, okay. Okay. That's... Okay. First of all, boy, if there was ever a character who you did not have to explain how he came back from the dead, it's... it's Mysterio.
00:27:53
Speaker
Right. You could just be back. You never have to do that. That's such a blessing that you are denying yourself by writing any explanation for Mysterio from coming back from the dead. Because all you need to do is go, it was an illusion.
00:28:14
Speaker
It was an illusion, Michael. Right. i that That be committing suicide in the pages of Daredevil, that was an illusion. Yeah. Spider-Man, that was an illusion. That happened in Daredevil. Come on.
00:28:27
Speaker
does Spider-Man, does it really make sense that I would do that in in Daredevil? No, of course not. Come on. ah Secondly, like, you don't have to You don't have to fix sins past because the way to fix sins past is to never talk about it again. Well, I'm getting to that point. Uh, but let me, let me talk about what happens in Amazing Spider-Man 74 and then we'll be done.
Nick Spencer's Spider-Man Legacy
00:29:03
Speaker
Oh, there's more. Okay. There's, there's more. Okay. So not realized there was going to be additional. There's got to be the defeat of the Kindreds, right?
00:29:16
Speaker
The two kindreds, yes. These two clones that Harry Osborn created, they have died many times and be been recreated. Uh-huh. Every time they die, they go to hell and their souls are tormented by Mephisto. So Dr. Strange, who is still hanging out with Mephisto in this casino, Hell Casino, the the Hotel Inferno,
00:29:46
Speaker
which Which, it's kind of difficult to tell if it's a metaphor or an actual casino. Yeah. They make a wager, they make a bet over the soul of Harry Osborn. Like, actual Harry Osborn. Okay. Sure.
00:30:09
Speaker
Also, I should note here that there's another guy named Harry Lyman, who has been kidnapped by Kindred, who is also a Harry Osborn clone. Okay, yes, because I was gonna say Harry Lyman was Harry Osborn in the Dan Slott run, who, to distance himself from Norman, that Lyman was his mother's maiden name. Right, so this- So that's not Harry Osborn?
00:30:37
Speaker
So this, so Harry Lyman, Dan slots Harry Osborn. The Harry Osborn that was Harry from the start of brand new day. ah According to this story was not Harry Osborn. He's a clone of Harry and Harry's been dead the whole time.
00:30:58
Speaker
Okay. That's weird. Cause usually it's the reverse, right? Usually it's the one that died was a clone and I've been alive the whole time. This is the reverse. This is a way to say, which seems quite unnecessary. This is a reverse Norman, right? A reverse Norman. Yes. Cause, cause with Norman, it was like, Oh, he's been alive the whole time. A namron, if you will. Right. This with Harry is, Oh, he's been dead the whole time.
00:31:31
Speaker
And the Harry that's been around has been a clone that his AI version of himself created. Uh-huh. So anyway, Harry Lyman helps defeat the Kindreds, but not before he gets killed. Okay. And he's a clone of Harry.
00:31:59
Speaker
and he's a clone of Harry. Yes. Okay. All right. Okay. So Spider-Man gets buried under a bunch of rubble. Because ah we love it when when that happens, Matt, we love that. you You think it's not as good here as it is in other places. That's our favorite thing is when that happens, though. Well, you know how we love it when he digs himself out of the rubble? Uh huh. What happens here is Mary Jane digs him out of the rubble, which is fine. You know, that's nothing exactly all right. Okay.
00:32:31
Speaker
And the show of love between that that Mary Jane shows to Peter kills the Kindreds. Why? Because they're servants of Mephisto. Uh-huh.
00:32:53
Speaker
and They say, we failed Mephisto. He was all that was keeping our rapid aging disease from killing us. And like all those before, once we're no longer useful and then they die.
00:33:09
Speaker
Because Mephisto loses the bet he had with Dr. Strange because Mary Jane shows love to Peter. I mean, that why wouldn't she, though? That's a dumb bet.
00:33:25
Speaker
buddy I don't know what to tell you. I mean like if you're if you're the devil if you're Mephisto Would you not if you're Mephisto and you've read a bunch of spider-man comics Would your would your bet me i be I bet Mary Jane doesn't love Peter
00:33:49
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know. Because he didn't get rid of their love for each other. He just got rid of their marriage. So he's gotta know. He's gotta know that they're at least friends. That they have affection for each other. Well, there's apparently something where Peter causes some cataclysm later.
00:34:19
Speaker
that allows Mephisto to, like, rule over the world. Okay. And so it's implied that Mephisto let Dr. Strange win this bet to allow this thing to happen later, which may happen later in the Nick Spencer run on Spider-Man. I don't know. This sounds like just a an entire building made of of ah patches on holes. That...
00:34:45
Speaker
Okay, so the main Sinister Wars series feels like a DC crossover with too much going on. The Amazing Spider-Man issues throughout it feels like every attempt to fix Spider-Man continuity, all of which are bad, since past, since past isn't a fix, but like it tries to change something and do something like big and bold and it sucks, right?
00:35:16
Speaker
one more day sucks the story that gets rid of Peter and Mary Jane's marriage. Yeah. Although what comes after it brand new day is great. Yeah. Like but as we said, even at the time, you didn't have to do all that to get here. All you had to do was just like put good writers on Spider-Man. Right. Right. But like this falls into a big trap.
00:35:45
Speaker
of, oh, I'm gonna do the story that fixes Spider-Man. No, just do a good story. Yeah. As soon as you fall into the trap of, I gotta fix this stuff that happened a decade ago, 20 years ago, however long ago, you're fucked. Yeah, i I'm ah having trouble thinking of an example of that going well.
00:36:16
Speaker
I also don't understand why you need to you felt like you needed to fix to to to set back the original Harry Osborn death. Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. The first page of Amazing Spider-Man 74, which is Legacy 875, is the last page from the issue where Harry Osborn died. Okay. Establishing that death again.
00:36:47
Speaker
Whereas in Brand New Day, Harry Osborn was supposedly alive again, right? ah But this is like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That wasn't really Harry. The other Harry who died before, because because he passed out that one time, because he went into a fire and saved some people, and also he did a drug. That's the real Harry. He has done a drug. He has done a drug. And I think we go along to tell you the lesson.
00:37:17
Speaker
Or maybe it was Harry Lyman who did a drug. This makes me even less like people really wanted us to rank that issue high. I think that was spectacular 200 people wanted us to rank that issue really high. This, this makes it worse. Yeah. I mean, like all this bending over backwards to make Harry alive again or Harry dead again.
00:37:45
Speaker
is what I mean. So that he then could be alive again? What the fuck, man?
00:37:53
Speaker
like Also, this ends with a big MJ Peter kiss like on a like the top of a building. ah hu and If this is what people were trying to preserve
00:38:11
Speaker
And but good because they got and they got mad about Paul because they wanted to keep this, I do not know what to tell you. but so Matt Wilson loves Paul. I mean, I don't i don't care about Paul.
00:38:27
Speaker
But like it's with as much with as much as people hate him, I feel like I have to be the Paul Defender. Yeah, it does kind of make you want to have his back a little bit just out of contrariness. This is the end of the Nick Spencer run on Spider-Man. Oof. Yikes.
00:38:49
Speaker
The next issue is the start of the um Beyond Corporation stuff. Okay.
Critique on Retconning and Storyline Changes
00:38:59
Speaker
so So yeah, this is the end of Nick Spencer on Spider-Man. This was Nick Spencer being like, this is how I'm going to go out. that That does make me wonder. Here's here's the thing about Nick Spencer.
00:39:13
Speaker
Nick Spencer's written some comics that you like, some comics that I like a lot. The the Jimmy Olsen comic's really good. Jimmy Olsen comic's really good. Superior Foes is really good. Yeah. I think, I always kind of want to have to be on Nick Spencer's side, because I think he got it really fucking bad in 2016, when people got mad at him for writing a comic where the Nazis were the bad guys.
00:39:43
Speaker
And they were they were mad at other people and directed that anger at Nick Spencer. Well, Nick Spencer didn't help with the way he responded to it. No. No, he didn't. But one, that comic was definitely not just his idea. Yeah. And also, like... And two, the Nazis were the bad guys. The Nazis were the bad guys and lost at the end. Yeah. Like, that's...
00:40:11
Speaker
Like, and yet, like, my sister was, like, calling me mad about it. Calling me! Well, my secret theory, it's not even that secret. My theory about that was 90% of the people who were mad about it didn't read the comic at all. Oh, of course not.
00:40:34
Speaker
They only saw the image of Captain America saying hail Hydra. That's what got him mad. Yeah. Yeah. Look, there was a lot going on, but I think he caught a lot of shit for that that, that he shouldn't have a good amount of unfair shit. Yeah. A lot of unfair shit and a lot of largely because we all thought the world was going to be very different than it turned out to be at that moment in time.
Sinister War's Overcomplexity and Character Development
00:41:01
Speaker
When that comic was made, it was people didn't think the world was going to be the way it was. Yeah, it was made under an assumption. But again, I don't I don't love Secret Empire. I just feel like the amount of shit that he personally got about it from people. It was wild and it was bizarre to see. Secret Empire is not a good comic. Yeah, I did not deserve that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was just like,
00:41:29
Speaker
It's an okay comic, like it's okay. But like, yeah man, because of that amount of shit that he got, I've all i've i've got a soft spot for him as a creator whose work i've like I like. But man, it this makes me wonder if this is what you said and it's like exactly how he wanted to go out in the book, you know? In the way that we can be,
00:41:57
Speaker
as Sure as we can be of anything that go down swinging was the way that Dan Slott wanted to go out on spider-man Yeah, ah or if this is a thing where it's like hey, you're off the book Do wrap up all these plans You have for the next five years of comics in four issues and if that's a Like that is how we got to this because I cannot imagine this being a the story that anybody wanted. Because Matt, let me ask you a question. Does Spider-Man do anything in this? He gets beat up a lot. He gets beat up a lot, but like, he does not do anything proactive. And I don't just mean that he is like, reacting to villains attacking, because that's kind of the nature of superhero fiction, right? Like we've talked about that. Yeah, yeah it's that like, he's constantly getting
00:42:55
Speaker
pulled out of danger from one sinister gang by members of another sinister gang. Like he doesn't actually like escape from any of them himself. And also Doc Ock's the one who ultimately solves the problem. And then it sounds like, like he gets buried under some rocks and Mary Jane digs him up and that solves the larger problem. Right. So Doc Ock solves one problem and MJ solves the other problem. And look, that's fine. Like,
00:43:24
Speaker
I don't, I don't hate MJ solving a problem and I don't hate Doc Ock solving a problem. I don't mind like, you know, villain and supporting cast like coming together. I love that shit generally, but it's like, does Spider-Man do anything?
00:43:39
Speaker
Cause he kind of shit like his name's on the cover. So I feel like he should do something. and Yeah. It's, this is, a Spider-Man miniseries and some issues of Amazing Spider-Man where Spider-Man is basically a non-entity for so much of it. Yeah, man. Because it's like like you said, Doc Ock solves the problem, mary Mary Jane solves the other problem, and everything else is about Harry Osborn. Yeah.
00:44:11
Speaker
everything else is about Harry Osborn. And it's trying to so fix stories that aren't Spider-Man stories about Spider-Man. They're stories about Harry and Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn and MJ. Yeah. There's a lot happening that Spider-Man's barely involved in. And also it's like, Spider-Man's got great villains. We love Spider-Man villains. But that kind of only gets you so far when I'm looking at this thing and I'm like, I don't know who these people are. Well, and they're not actually doing anything because it's, it's like, there's no room for them to do anything. And also Taskmaster just said the dumbest sentence I've ever read in my life. The thing about youre you're a killer, you're dead MacDetterson of the Massachusetts MacDetterson.
00:45:03
Speaker
yes that's That's a rough line of dialogue. Yeah. Like I think it's supposed to be bad. but like, you still wrote it. You still made me read it with my own two eyeballs. I'm not saying that there's not any Gathering of Five in this, but the contention that the Gathering of Five is a part of this is not ah not really all that much. i I guess you could say that it's in here that
00:45:35
Speaker
um Harry Osborn got wizard powers? Mephisto was part of it, was part of it, I guess.
Comparing Sinister War to DC Standards
00:45:44
Speaker
um But the gathering of five of it all was overblown a little bit. But also, yeah, ah Dr. Strange and Mephisto are the, like, higher powers making everything happen to begin with. They are our power powers. They're the Howard Powers, yeah. It's bad. All of this is bad. Yeah. i like this This can't go on the bottom of the list because I am not going to die mad about it. Right. ah Which is unfortunately my fate and my curse for other things at the bottom of the list. But honestly, I would prefer to read anything at the bottom five of the list again than read this again just because like, what happens in this?
00:46:36
Speaker
It's just a complete mess. Just a complete mess. Okay, here's what I would say.
00:46:51
Speaker
I think we have to say sins past is a worse story than this because this story is a reaction to sins past. More than anything else, it's a reaction to sins past. It's Nick Spencer trying to deal with
00:47:07
Speaker
the Stacey twins. Would you agree? Sure, sure, sure. But like, it's about as bad as Countdown to Final a Crisis.
00:47:21
Speaker
Yeah. It's tough because things happen in Countdown to Final Crisis. I mean bad things, but yeah. Yeah, but like, the protagonists make decisions.
00:47:33
Speaker
Like it's not offensive in the way that like Avengers whirlwinds is. Although if Marvel Comics recalled this book and we were missing pages, that would explain a lot.
00:47:46
Speaker
yeah
00:47:50
Speaker
All right. You give me, you give me, I mean, look, I'm not going to put it above ultimatum or I'm not going to put it below ultimatum. Okay. Okay, that's fair. Ultimatum is morally reprehensible. Yeah, no, that's I agree with that. that's still That still leaves us a considerable amount of room to work with. Here's my question, Matt. Is this worse than trouble?
00:48:17
Speaker
ah Man, that is a tough one. Trouble's bad. Trouble's real bad. Trouble also has a consistent artist. That's true. Trouble is... I was gonna say Trouble is one of those comics that I'm gonna die mad about, but maybe not. I find Trouble... ultimately very forgettable.
00:48:43
Speaker
Like, it's it's it's bad, don't get me wrong, I agree with where it is on the list, but like, nobody's out here asking you to think about trouble. Except for you and me. It's very similar, this is actually weirdly very similar to trouble, because it's trying to solve a problem that nobody asks to be solved. I don't think trouble is trying to solve a problem. Well, trouble's trying to make a change to Spider-Man that nobody asks for. That's true.
00:49:08
Speaker
It's trying to make Aunt May his mom. And young and sexy. And young and sexy. But, like, ultimately, trouble is about, oh, actually, Aunt May is Peter's mom. Right? Right. And then everybody just decided that's not... That's how we live. Yeah, we were like, oh, that's that's not true. That's a bad idea. Like, what if... I'm shocked that Nick Spencer in this story didn't also try to fix trouble. but Well, that would, like...
00:49:38
Speaker
that's that I was about to say that would require acknowledging trouble, but damn, if you're going to acknowledge since past. Cage The Max series is bad in a way that this is not.
00:49:49
Speaker
The Widening Jire, I feel like, is a comic that we will die mad about. Is this on par with either Spider-Man Black Cat The Evil That Men Do, or That Brave and the Bold Issue, where JMS says says that killing joke could have been preventable?
00:50:08
Speaker
That's pretty bad. Yeah. That's that and that's pretty bad. I mean, like ah ah we keep scrolling up. Yeah. here's Here's what I will say. Nash is better. Nash is better. Nash is at number 1552. Nash is better, for sure. Here's what I'm going to say. It's not better than that brave in the bold, or it's not worse than that brave in the bold issue. OK. OK.
00:50:37
Speaker
But it's probably worse than that Detective Comics issue where Harley Quinn kills all those kids. yeah that's that's ultimate That one's bad, but it's also ultimately forgettable. And it's just one out-of-character thing that Harley Quinn does. yeah This is trying to change a bunch of shit. I would i would say...
00:51:04
Speaker
I would straight up rather read Justice League the Rise of Arsenal again before I read this again. I'm suggesting this is the new number 1562. Yep. Correct. right
00:51:17
Speaker
I'm going to say Spider-Man Sinister War is the new number 1562. This is ah a bottom of the ah bottom shooter that snuck up on me. We were not prepared.
00:51:34
Speaker
We were not prepared for this. We were not prepared for this to be this bad. And it's like nothing offensive happens in it, but like nothing that like not what happens in it. Either nothing happens in it, or way too fucking much happens in it. Yeah. You know? That's, that's, yes, it's either, either one is bad, either, won't and neither one is good.
00:52:04
Speaker
I'm just saying, why did anyone think that they needed to say, like, no, I needed Harry Osborn to be dead this whole time. This, this is one of those ones where like, I have said before, one of my classic lines, Matt, you know, um ah my classic goof mops.
00:52:32
Speaker
I have said that like when dc like when Marvel Comics are bad, I understand them and why they're bad. And when DC Comics are bad, I am mystified. And this is the one that really this is the exception to that rule. Yeah, this is a Marvel comic. comic what like I don't know what you were trying to do. This is a Marvel comic that feels like a bad DC comic. Yeah. That's what I was thinking the whole time I was reading it. That's weird, right? Yeah, it's weird.
00:53:03
Speaker
Yeah. Bizarre. And it feels like a bad DC comic from like 15 years earlier too. Yeah. And and everybody, ah I will say this, everybody involved in this comic ah can and has done better work. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Final Thoughts and Audience Engagement
00:53:21
Speaker
it's It's just, this one didn't work out. this This one was trying to do too much and too little at the same time.
00:53:30
Speaker
I don't know what the point is specifically of these four issues, because it sounds like everything that happens happens in Amazing Spider-Man. And all of this could have happened off panel. That's true. But like,
00:53:49
Speaker
all like, oh so okay, I feel like Nick Spencer came into this story saying, I want to undo since past.
00:53:58
Speaker
I also want to make it so that Harry Osborn's been dead this whole time. I also want to have Spider-Man fight a bunch of Sinister Sixes, because I think that's cool. I think that's an idea that sounds really cool on paper until you actually put it into practice, and then you're like, oh, actually, this is not there's there's not enough of them, and there's not there's too much overlap for it to be interesting.
00:54:28
Speaker
Like, what if the Sinister Six and the Sinister Syndicate and the Superior Foes and the, like, all these guys fought? It's like, well, there's... a lot of people are on all those rosters. Yeah. And kind of all the good ones are on one. And also I want to explain away that time Mysterio died in Daredevil.
00:54:51
Speaker
yeah And it's like, man, by the time he was already back, he he had been back for a long time. That that Daredevil issue was like in 2002. Hey, does this show where Mary Jane knew that he was Mysterio and was like, no, Quentin just wants to tell his side of the story by making this Hollywood movie with me. just that Is that ever resolved? Kind of, kind of.
00:55:20
Speaker
Okay. Alright. MJ and Mysterio have a talk, but then Mysterio goes and joins the Sinister Six because he thinks he owes something to Harry Osborn. Okay. Sure. Sure. Also, um apologies for all the times that I said Mephisto or Mysterio when I met the other one. Yeah, I had to actively strive against it and I don't know that I succeeded.
00:55:47
Speaker
ah i This comic made me so feel so many things that um i I know I mixed those up a couple of times, so please just forgive me ah for mixing those up. All right. I forgive you, Matt. Thank you, Chris. ah That's it for this comic's catch-up. We can only go up from here for the rest of the year. That's right. The rest of this year, it's all uphill, baby.
00:56:16
Speaker
um We do have some some considering to do of Things on the every story ever list on our next special though. Yeah, that's yeah we we might just go ahead and and And make that decision and then just briefly cover it on the next special. Yeah um We'll discuss it soon, but we're thinking of just scrubbing the list of a particular person You know who we're talking about. Yeah you probably know we're talking about
00:56:48
Speaker
I mean, all of his stuff is fairly low on the list, but if the list gets shorter, you'll know why. Yeah. Maybe we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it on the, on the, uh, on the next special. If you would like to suggest something for comics catch up, you can email us at war rocket podcast at gmail dot.com. We're also on blue sky war rocket Ajax dot.com on blue sky.
00:57:16
Speaker
We're on Tumblr, warrocketpodcast.tumblr dot.com. You can join our Discord. Ask us for an invitation and we will get you onto to our Discord where you can recommend other catch-up candidates or have fun discussions with the many cool people over there on our Discord. If you want to support comics catch up and every story ever, go to patreon dot.com slash war rocket Ajax and kick in as little as a dollar a month to help us out. We would really appreciate it. If you do, if we reach 420 paying patrons, we will take an edible and do some BOCO. That is our promise to you. Uh, we are currently at 400, so 20 more will get us there.
00:58:01
Speaker
If you want to find me and my stuff, go to MattDWilson.net to find links to my comics, my books, my other podcasts, and my social medias. Chris, where can people find you? Everybody can find me by going to the-isb dot.com.
00:58:14
Speaker
Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Don't read Sinister War. Good catching up. Good catching up. The story was bad.