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16. Empathy: Driving Force For Change! - With Alexa Hudson, RN, CHPN
68 Plays5 years ago
Alexa Hudson has been servicing families facing terminal illnesses and the end-of-life in the Metro-Atlanta area for 5 years. Learning to recognize and work in a field that is largely centered on grief is amongst the most rewarding life experience she's had. It has allowed her to support my community and empower them with courage, comfort, and hope.
Music: www.rinaldisound.net
Productions: Carlos Andres Londono
Get in touch with Kendra: www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
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Transcript
Empathy vs. Sympathy in Human Experience
00:00:01
Speaker
There are some individuals who are disconnected from the experience of fellow humans. And they are disconnected because for two reasons. They offer sympathy when right now a lot of people are really in need of empathy to drive change. And I think that in terms of grief,
00:00:32
Speaker
Grief is, in a general way, is a response to a loss.
Podcast Introduction: Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:49
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:05
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Meeting Alexa Hudson: A Story of Hard Times
00:01:28
Speaker
Welcome to today's episode. Today, I have Alexa Hudson with us. Alexa and I met. It's going to be, let me see, 2016, I've got to make my, I calculate here, three and a half years ago, three and a half years ago, we met.
00:01:50
Speaker
And we met in very uncertain times and times in which you probably don't necessarily want to meet people during those times because it was during the time that our mom was very ill and we had to recur to hospice and palliative care services. And Alexa was the nurse assigned to my mom and to our home.
00:02:13
Speaker
And that is how we met. And she was just a ray of sunshine for our family during really, really hard times. And we connected. And even though my parents were not in the state where she was providing services when my mom passed away,
00:02:36
Speaker
You really did help us, by the way, Alexa, so much in that process. And I think we've told you thank you so many times because you helped us make the transition of even from Atlanta to my mom going to Florida for the visit and be able to do that and help us with the services in Florida. And so it was just so much that you did for us. So first off, thank you. I want to say thank you. You're in front of everybody that's listening.
00:03:04
Speaker
Thank you so much.
Alexa's Passion for Hospice Care
00:03:06
Speaker
So Alexa, I asked you to be on because I'm just so curious to know how somebody ends up becoming a hospice nurse. And I just have so many questions. But first off, just share with us a little bit about you, a mom, a wife, all that kind of stuff, good stuff. Okay. Yeah.
00:03:29
Speaker
I am all of that. I am a mom. I have three children, a 16 year old, a 12 year old and a seven year old. I am a wife. I've been married to my husband. You would think I would know this number, but we met in college. We got married shortly after that.
00:03:49
Speaker
You're like me calculating how long we've known each other. Do I have enough fingers to count? You probably don't have enough fingers to count how long you've been together. That's why you lost track, Alexa. I do. I'm like, gosh, has it really? And it doesn't feel like it's been that long, but it's been great time. But yes, I am also a hospice nurse. I actually am a certified hospice and palliative care nurse.
00:04:19
Speaker
I did go to grad school for a while to work on some advanced studies in hospice and palliative care, but my passion is really at the bedside with patients and families. It's just an amazing journey for me. I love every aspect of it. I never thought that I would be a hospice nurse. It's not something that most people plan, but I am just
00:04:48
Speaker
eternally grateful that I have fallen into this career path. Well, and, and that's what I'm curious, how did you fall into this career path? Like, and how long ago was that? So, um, this was, uh, I think 25th,
00:05:10
Speaker
2014, 2015.
Journey into Hospice Inspired by Family
00:05:13
Speaker
Yeah. I shouldn't ask anything that has to do with, um, like the end of 2014, beginning of 2015, I was actually, um, my, my own family members were actually, um, they were critically ill.
00:05:39
Speaker
and they required hospice care. And there were two different kind of pathways that we took because one was my grandfather and the other was my great-grandmother. Oh wow, great-grandmother. Yeah, my great-grandmother. Wow. And she was an incredibly active lady, even in her advanced age. She was very, very active. She was very independent. She lived by herself until she
00:06:09
Speaker
was about six months before she died. She lived by herself. And my grandfather, on the other hand, he had, oh, his prognosis was a little bit longer. He developed Parkinson's disease, but it was a pretty advanced and rare form of Parkinson's. So it progressed very, very rapidly. And when we first heard hospice,
00:06:35
Speaker
the word is scary. There's a stigma that word carries. And so our immediate response was like, absolutely not. Like we're not even thinking about death because that's what the word meant to us. But then we learned a little bit about just the benefits, the help that we could get. And it was easier to have someone come into the home to at least do medical checkups than trying to take
00:07:05
Speaker
a person with advanced Parkinson's or my great grandmother who had advanced respiratory disease out to a doctor's office. Um, but at that time I was not a hospice nurse. I was just a regular nurse actually going through grad school at the time. And, um, I remember, I remember there was a day where
00:07:29
Speaker
There were two days in particular and they were kind of back to back. I would visit my grandmother's house and both my great grandmother and my grandfather were living with my grandmother and she was trying to take care of them and I would visit all the time. And my great grandmother was in the room and my mother was trying to feed her and encouraging her to just eat eggs and bacon and sausage and whatever.
00:07:58
Speaker
For the first time, she just seemed frustrated. My great-grandmother did and she was like, enough. And that moment just kind of triggered something in me and I didn't know what it was. And about two days later, my grandmother would constantly check my great-grandmother's oxygen saturation. And people are obsessed with that little machine.
00:08:25
Speaker
And I think her oxygen saturation, you mean with the oxygen saturation, do you mean people you're talking about in general, like now, you know how obsessed? Yes. Okay. So why is that? I think it's because, you know, we live vicariously through the people that we love. And so we as humans and throughout our lives, we're kind of programmed to think about things being in a normal range. And that word is not,
00:08:54
Speaker
unique to individuals and individual circumstances. So when we think about normal and we see something that doesn't fall within that normal range that we've been programmed to accept, we start to panic. And that happened. Her oxygen dropped down to, I think, the mid 80s. And after that, she said, my grandmother started to panic and was like,
00:09:23
Speaker
We've got to take her to the hospital. She needs to go. She's, and my response was very, um, it was not, I didn't act with as much urgency, I suppose. And I said, well, she really doesn't want to go to the hospital. Maybe we should just leave her here and let's just sit her up and let's just help her breathe. And she wants to stay home. She's comfortable, but the number scared the rest of my family members and
00:09:54
Speaker
There was no one there to advocate for her. And it was very important for my great grandmother to always stay home in her bed where she was comfortable. She didn't want to go to the hospital. And my family could not fathom that. They had a very hard time understanding that sometimes doing less is doing more. And my great grandmother ended up passing away in the hospital.
00:10:20
Speaker
by herself and it was like two or three in the morning. Was it traumatic for you because you knew that it was not her will and her desire to be away from her home? Yeah. I don't know if that's the right word, but that just kind of stuck with you, the fact that her wishes were not granted. It was upsetting.
00:10:50
Speaker
It was upsetting and I think for me it was upsetting because I just wanted her to have what she wanted and it was upsetting for my grandmother and my mom and the rest of the family because they they wanted to do everything that they could and they wanted her to have what they thought she should have and so that was again living
00:11:18
Speaker
living vicariously through her, just kind of placing themselves, if I were, if my oxygen level was 85, that would be a problem for most people, but most people weren't in her condition. And so accepting, accepting that change in life, no matter how you look at what happens after our life here on earth, that's a very mysterious and hard concept for people to come to accept. And so,
00:11:48
Speaker
That was the moment that I just felt called to advocate for people, people in that same situation.
Becoming a Hospice Nurse: A Personal Calling
00:12:00
Speaker
And so I actually got an invitation from another nurse who was doing hospice care. And she said, you should just come. We need another nurse. And the rest is history. I became a hospice nurse and I've done it ever since.
00:12:16
Speaker
And now, how long was, okay, your great-grandmother passed before your grandfather? Actually, she died about three weeks after he did. After? Oh, so it was really close together. And then where did he pass away? At the hospital too? No, he actually passed away at home. He passed away at home because I think the symptoms of his
00:12:46
Speaker
disease process were different. And so it wasn't anything that directly correlated with distress or things that people correlate with, say without having oxygen, people think suffocation. So they passed. He was just, you know, we saw him slowly kind of fall asleep and sleep deeper and deeper, but there was no obvious signs of
00:13:15
Speaker
distress or a lack of oxygen or there was nothing like that. And so it was a little bit easier for him to pass away at home. And in fact, when he passed away, my grandmother
00:13:34
Speaker
kept him at home and she didn't tell anybody for several hours. Is this the same? Let me just kind of, sorry, I have to create this image in my head. Is this grandmother, the daughter of your great grandmother or is this on the other side of the family? Okay. So she lost her husband and her mom within three week period? Yes. Oh, wow. Okay.
00:14:01
Speaker
Okay. Sorry. I just wanted to kind of know if it was on the same side. Okay. So then continue with that part with how she was then. So she was okay with him being home, but with her own mom, because of her symptoms, she really did feel the urgency of taking her to the hospital for when her oxygen was low. Okay. So that was kind of like contrasting a little bit there. It was.
00:14:32
Speaker
you know, when you look at those two different scenarios and you try to understand the grieving process, it paints two very different but very similar pictures. People anticipate the death of someone and so they start grieving early, but I think that watching
00:15:01
Speaker
that end of life process unfold, it kind of dictates or guides that path that people take into their post-death grief, if that makes sense.
00:15:17
Speaker
So how they handle the diagnosis process and then from there on watching their loved one kind of deteriorate with their health dictates how they're gonna grieve after. Yes, is that what you're stating?
00:15:37
Speaker
I think so. And you could see that relationship there with how your mom was, your mom, your grandmother, and you've seen it also in some of the other cases then with what you do. Yes. What I have noticed in terms of a pattern, I've noticed that people
00:16:06
Speaker
People respond to disease progression and death and dying based on what they're prepared for. And by preparation, it comes down to honesty. Oftentimes, people, meaning family members, are not afforded the opportunity to process what to expect because delivering that hard truth
00:16:34
Speaker
is very difficult. And it comes from the medical perspective as well,
Delivering Hard Truths in Hospice Care
00:16:41
Speaker
right? Like even as a nurse yourself, like to actually say to somebody what it is, even that is an aspect of truth that is hard to even deliver that news.
00:16:51
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Very difficult. Even though you do it for a living, it's still something it takes a lot, a lot from you. And you have to also probably know the family is slightly or kind of known a little bit of their character for maybe a couple of times to know how to deliver the news.
00:17:13
Speaker
That would be an ideal situation. But it doesn't happen because you normally are called, you can normally call or called right at the moment in which it's already sometimes in the last few months of somebody's life. Sometimes I'll give you an example. Yes, please do. I went to admit a lady and she was a fairly young lady. And when I got to her house,
00:17:44
Speaker
For me, it was abundantly clear that this woman was dying. And her husband was frustrated, very much so at her, because he said, I don't understand. She was up. She was walking around. And now she just doesn't want to get up. She doesn't want to do anything. She doesn't want to eat. I just I don't know what the problem is.
00:18:12
Speaker
And so- Dial, absolute denial. Yes. Whoa. Well, it was denial. But it was surprising. But it was surprising because it caught him off guard that she was fine, and then all of a sudden she wasn't. Yes. Yeah. And so after a few minutes, I started talking to him about, well, this is what's going on.
00:18:34
Speaker
And that's where you try to be gentle because you don't know where a person's emotional state is. How much can they handle? So I try to start introducing that information very, very gently. And the man said to me, well, how soon do you think she's going to get better? Because we're planning a trip to Jamaica in August. And August may have been about four,
00:19:02
Speaker
maybe four or five months away. I think this was in like March or April. That was a pretty pivotal moment for me because I had two options to either tell this man a lie or tell him the truth. And so I asked him if he would mind going into another room
00:19:29
Speaker
where we could sit down. I really wanted to talk to him and I thought it would be easier to talk outside of the patient's company. That way she could rest and we weren't disturbing her. And I explained to him first with the facts. This is what I see, you know, this is what the blood pressure is. This is what the oxygen level is. It was the very objective facts that he could see and I could see together.
00:19:58
Speaker
And then I eased into, this is what it means to me. And I said to him, I said, when I see all of these things start to line up at the same time, it usually indicates that this person is really starting to progress toward the end of their life on earth.
00:20:25
Speaker
It's easier, I think, for most people to hear it like that because I didn't make it absolute and I don't believe in making anybody's life an absolute value, like they're gonna die today or they're gonna die tomorrow because I don't know.
00:20:41
Speaker
Right, you're only going by, like just what you said, this is the evidence, this evidence based on whatever other comparisons I have from other patients, this is what this normally means. And this is what I can take from this information, this is what it normally means. And that's basically what you gave them. And that's, actually, I believe that's how you presented it to us, too, in that process, too.
00:21:04
Speaker
You were just so kind and just so generous and with your smile and caring and just so comprehensive. So I'm just picturing all the love and how it is you share as you're telling this. So how did he take it in that moment?
00:21:22
Speaker
What did he do when you gave him that kind of, like when you were telling him the signs, when you were saying, okay, so you see oxygen is this, this is this, the liver function is this or whatever, all the, whatever signs were. And was it registering for him in that moment? Like when you were just giving the evidence? I think there was a combination. I think it registered and
00:21:48
Speaker
he was trying to digest what he, I think in his heart knew was happening, but did not want to accept. And so he momentarily clung to what he was last told by his physician or his wife's physician, which was, it looks like the tumor is shrinking. The hope, hope, a little bit of, okay. And he was like, I don't understand. The doctor said that
00:22:15
Speaker
the tumor is shrinking. It went from this size to that size. What are you talking about? And I said, again, very direct with people. Sometimes, even though tumors may shrink, the disease itself can spread and it will cause multi-system failure. And right now, when I see this number,
00:22:43
Speaker
This is, I get into more of an explanation. This is why I'm seeing this number. This is why her blood pressure might be going lower. This is why oxygen is not getting higher. And then it starts to process and comprehend. And then together we come up with a plan. I try to introduce people to what to expect next, because that's the scariest part. You don't know what to expect. And I find that most families
00:23:11
Speaker
start to struggle the most with themselves. Are they doing the right thing or are they not? Are they going to be the reason that their loved one has passed away? Are they forgetting to do something crucial? And so it becomes a much more spiritual path in terms of care, what to look for, because the second someone maybe takes a gas for air,
00:23:41
Speaker
That's scary. And people don't know how to process that. So they immediately start to think, OK, I missed something. I didn't do something. Or I need to do something different. And it's all emotional. It's all spiritual. It's all education. And I try to shift people away from what I call the numbers. Don't worry about those numbers. This is what
00:24:11
Speaker
mom's body's doing, dad's body's doing, wife's body is doing, to adjust to the changes that are taking place as different organ systems get weaker and eventually shut down. And reassuring them that this process does not indicate any kind of pain. And I am here to ensure that there is no evidence of any kind of struggle or suffering.
00:24:40
Speaker
And then people were usually OK. They're more at ease. Right now, when you said the part of, and this is what's happening to mom's body or dad's body, how do you talk to the kids when there are children? What is the language that you talk to them about death and the process of their parent passing or about to pass?
00:25:09
Speaker
um What is some of the language that you use to describe it to them? Was it in the same way similar to what you just described right now? Not quite the same when I talk to children and I will say this children are amazing they I mean I it blows my mind how um, how resilient and how strong they are and they
00:25:39
Speaker
They see things and know things that we often don't give them credit for. And I will let children lead the conversation. That is gold right there, what you said.
00:25:54
Speaker
because that way you can kind of know where it is they stand rather than inputting your own and this actually this is a great I just got chills because it's a good I'm in every single podcast there's a moment which I get chills and every single interview and this was one of them
00:26:09
Speaker
for me right now with you because it's like a huge lesson even as a parent that sometimes i need to know what is it that my kids know and what is it that they understand before i input my own perspective and my viewpoint onto them.
00:26:25
Speaker
kind of taking the cues off of them rather than me and putting. And so what you just said now, even in this aspect of death, that's huge, Alexa. That's awesome. Okay, so tell us how that, walk us through a little bit of what that would look like, because I'm just intrigued now by that.
Talking to Children About Death
00:26:43
Speaker
So, depending on the age of the child, of course, children comprehend what's going on, or they process,
00:26:55
Speaker
what's going on differently. For some children, especially when they are younger, maybe five and younger, or six and younger, they tend to find something tangible that they cling to in place of that person. And, or they find
00:27:16
Speaker
a certain hobby that kind of replaces the energy that they were sharing or exchanging with that person. They now invested into this other object or hobby or task. And so I engage in that with that. And we have a very real conversation. There are certain words that I try not to use. And there are certain words that I try to be very cognizant of using.
00:27:45
Speaker
with children and one of the words that I make an effort to use, believe it or not, is death or dying. And the reason- Instead of saying passing away, instead of saying, instead of what, passing away? I try not to say loss or gone or, I try not to use those words. I try to use very concrete words with children because children are concrete thinkers.
00:28:14
Speaker
And when I tell them that, oh, you know, you lost your dad. Well, sometimes they, they're like, okay, but when am I going to find it? Exactly. Yes. That is just wow. That is just so important right now to, as a, as a parent to listen to that. That is so true. Okay. So then using concrete words in order to define that's amazing. Okay. And.
00:28:40
Speaker
When they ask, like I said, I let, I let children leave the conversation. And when they ask me questions, um, I answer their questions very honestly, but I use vocabulary that I think they're going to understand if they ask me, well, what is happening to my dad? Of course, with the other parent or the other guardians permission. Well, dad's heart is getting weaker.
00:29:11
Speaker
And so eventually dad's heart is not going to be able to pump blood the way that it normally does, which means dad's going to stop breathing. And I'm very concrete with them and I will share my stethoscope with them and I'll, and I will really try to engage them in that process so that they can see what's happening. And then we talk about more of the relationship in the emotional aspect. However, even though dad,
00:29:39
Speaker
is not doing well. And even though dad, his body is dying, dad still loves you. We still have memories. We still have pictures. And we're going to keep dad's memory alive through all of these other things.
00:29:55
Speaker
And usually they process. And then that's what the process. Now, do you have to talk to sometimes also get to know what people's spiritual backgrounds are around death in that process of helping them in that transition?
00:30:11
Speaker
for their loved ones. Like, for example, with a child like this, if by chance, I don't know. I mean, if you know for sure somebody's religious and that, you know, like you already know that they have permission, you know, for you to say soul or, you know, to use the word their soul, you know, whatever. Does it make sense what I'm saying? Like, do you kind of, yeah, do you talk about that aspect with some of the families before having some of these conversations?
00:30:38
Speaker
That conversation is one of the very first conversations I have when I first meet a family. I want to know right off the bat, are there any cultural or religious considerations that I need to learn or bear in mind when delivering your care? Because that is very much ingrained to who the person is and what their experience is going to be. And I don't want to miss a step because I overlook
00:31:08
Speaker
Very very important part of someone's life their spirituality. Yeah, so that's kind of number one on the list Tell me about yourself. Tell me what you believe in and I have Been able or been invited been invited to participate in some pretty incredible spiritual ceremonies and traditions during the death and dying process as a result so
00:31:38
Speaker
It's just been an incredible experience. Yeah, because you've gotten to see the cultural perspective and religious perspective of so many different people and how they relate to death and their beliefs about death in action, not just in words, right? Like you're actually seeing exactly what it is they believe because of how they're either celebrating the life or whatever it is that different cultures or religions may do.
00:32:07
Speaker
for that process. That is huge. It's like you use like a big university learning there right there, life learning, you know, learning all these cultures and religions just by living in them. Now, a question, how do you process then for yourself
00:32:28
Speaker
every single last, cause you also become then some attachment of course to the families, depending also on how long you've been with them or the type of relationships. So for you to have death be part of your life at a daily basis, how and what do you do in order to care for you? Um, you know, I,
00:32:57
Speaker
I always think I have the answer to that. I have a hard time putting it into words, but I think one of the things that I do
00:33:08
Speaker
because I absolutely get attached to families. I mean, your family is an obvious one. Yes. FYI, she went to the memorial. I wasn't there because I was in Georgia and I was not able to go to the memorial after, like a month after my mom's passing that they had a celebration in Atlanta and Alexa was there. And I know that you, that was big and super important in our family. So thank you.
00:33:34
Speaker
So so you've become attached and so but yeah, so how do you yeah, what do you do? So there's a couple things that I do um before The patients that i'm caring for pass away I I take a moment to recognize their grief And I think a lot of times their grief is is just overlooked or missed because They are the ones that
00:34:04
Speaker
I guess the family is losing, but they too are losing their family and they're processing that. And I think about that and that's what I connect to and that's what I cling to. And that's what makes it easier for me to work through this process with them and be by their side because I feel like I've just joined this person in helping them cope with their grief.
00:34:32
Speaker
So I don't feel quite the same loss as the family. That is because they have to not they're the ones that have just been given a diagnosis of their own life. The patient is the one that that is the one like what you just said. It's it's interesting because a selfishly selfishly we think is about.
00:34:55
Speaker
ourselves that are left behind rather than thinking even just how hard it is for the person that actually is leaving this mortal plane, you know, and that is eye-opening what you just said right there. I think about it humbles me and this is I guess what kind of gives me my momentum
00:35:26
Speaker
where that person, whomever they might be, where they are in life, when they sit back and they reflect and they reconcile and they try to come to terms with leaving their family behind. Because, and I tell families this all the time, moms are still moms, dads are still dads, and they're going to worry about their children and their grandchildren and
00:35:55
Speaker
their husbands and their wives, they worry about this stuff. I would. And so I carry that with me. And it's one of the reasons I like to stay in touch with families that I've been a part of because it gives me continual closure to see that the family is doing all right.
00:36:18
Speaker
It's kind of like you're being the eyes to some extent if you've kind of been living the grieving process of the patient for you to then see the family go on and be okay. It's as if you're seeing
00:36:34
Speaker
It's as if the patient's being able to see them through your eyes. I'm kind of maybe sounding a little bit like, but you know what I mean? Because you've kind of been living it on that perspective. That is so beautiful. And it makes me wonder how does it make you then feel by being able to see different people and the way that they've been able
00:37:00
Speaker
to go through their grieving process. How does it make you feel about your own mortality?
00:37:08
Speaker
because you, again, all of us, everybody thinks about that, right? But it still doesn't feel like it's in the forefront of our lives every single day, right? Because we don't work in the environment you do, but you do.
Reflecting on Mortality and Family
00:37:21
Speaker
Is it something that comes up in your thoughts about yourself and about your own mortality? Maybe I'm going on an angle that you didn't know I was going to go, but just curious. Oh, absolutely.
00:37:36
Speaker
It does, absolutely. I think about it all the time, every day. It is a part of who I am now because it drives me to try to be the very best person I can be.
00:38:02
Speaker
make sure that those who are around me are as prepared as possible for my death should it occur all of a sudden.
00:38:14
Speaker
With that said, do you then talk about your kids then, about death, you know, since it's part of your J-O-B description, you know, and since it's in your thoughts, is it something you talk to them about, about death in general, about like if I die or dad die, or do you kind of shield them from it until it's gonna be, you know what I mean? Like, what do you do to prepare
00:38:41
Speaker
them in the in the case that something said and because that's that's something I think all of us parents always think of Well, I talked to my children about it they and I talked to them about it because You know with what I do that I There's something called work-life balance, but in this field at least for me You never really separate yourself from work. Yeah. Yeah
00:39:11
Speaker
you're carrying your patient's lives home with you because you have people that depend on you or at least I feel like they depend on me and sometimes that dependency is just knowing that they have someone to call in case they don't know what to do or in case they have a question.
00:39:34
Speaker
it gives people comfort. So my phone, for example, it's like, yeah, you're on call. It's always on call. You're on call. Yeah. Um, and so there are many times where I will come home late or I will leave the home, my house very early. I will get up in the middle of whatever's going on on a weekend and say, Hey, you know what guys, I got to run because you know, this family needs me and
00:40:02
Speaker
When I first started this, my kids didn't know what, they were like, why do you always, what is going on? But now they understand that it's really a calling and I don't consider it a job. It's just me offering my, yeah, just serving, offering my support to families who need me. That's it. So I talk to them about death. I talk to them about dying. Sometimes, you know, I make light of it.
00:40:32
Speaker
for them to be able to process it like, you know, when I die, this is what we're going to do. But I need them to be comfortable with it so that it lessens the trauma because it's going to happen one day.
00:40:46
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, that's the thing. It's one, death is one of those things that we all know happens. It's like, it's more guaranteed than even birth because you know what I mean? Like you don't, like, you know what I mean? Like birthing, birthing is not even as guaranteed as
00:41:03
Speaker
dying, you know, having a child is not as guaranteed as all the fact that we all are going to die, everybody that's had a life is going to die. And it's still something that we're so not prepared. And part of it is exactly because of what you're saying, we do not
00:41:18
Speaker
talk about it it's not like oh when I get married I want to wear this veil that that that that oh when I become a mommy that that that all these other life transitions we talk about and dream about but we don't talk about oh when I die I'd love for you guys to do this and to like do this that that that no we don't
00:41:40
Speaker
It's like so weird. It's like, I don't know if it's just in certain, I'm assuming there's some cultures in which it is more open to talk about it in that way. Have you experienced anything like that in which in some maybe cultures that you've been able to help because it's a very diverse area in Atlanta that maybe they're more open that the patient themselves has already talked about that to their family? The cultures that I have found
00:42:10
Speaker
to be most open with talking about death are those cultures that value their legacy. And so they spend their lives working on who they are going to be remembered as. And so that moment of finality or seemingly final death is a monument. It's a milestone in this is the defining moment. This is how I'm going to be remembered.
00:42:40
Speaker
And those are the cultures and the families that talk about death and dying. Other families are afraid of it because it seems so final and it almost seems like lights out. You know, the eyes close and it's just darkness and that scares people. So I try to take the fear away from it. I don't, I don't,
00:43:09
Speaker
I don't consider myself afraid to die. I know that it's going to happen. I just hope that my children are in a place where they can take care of themselves and cope with me not being around. And then I'm okay with it. That's my only fear.
00:43:32
Speaker
Are they going to be in a position where if I die, there'll be trauma dying? Like what you said, because you don't stop being a mom. You're still caring for, are they ready? Are they ready? And a lot of times, I'm sure a lot of the patients even like when they know that they're, and I know that even for our mom, she wanted to kind of hold on a little bit because there was things she kind of wanted to make sure were done before she died.
00:43:55
Speaker
you know, because she didn't want to leave a burden on us type of thing, right? So you're still always also thinking of your children and your loved ones in that process. So what you're saying right now is just the motherly thing to do. You're like, I hope they're ready. I hope they're, they're okay to cope. Because really for us, when we do pass each individual, like it's not like, I mean, depending on whatever anybody believes what happens after death, but really it's, you're more worried about those that are being left behind kind of thing, right?
00:44:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. That's what it comes down to for me. I'm just like, I hope y'all are gonna be all right. Like, I'll be all right. Y'all gonna be all right. So to be transparent and I that's, that's awesome. And so, you know, I told my, my what is it my seven year old, I asked him one day I said, I said,
00:44:51
Speaker
Who's going to take care of me when I get older? And he turned around and he looked at me and he said, well, I'm going to take care of you when you get old and I'll take care of you when you get sick. I'm going to be a hospice nurse just like you. Oh my goodness. You know, it just, it's just, you know, appreciating life.
00:45:20
Speaker
trying to be a good person and, you know, reconciling your differences with people. That's, that's what it's about.
00:45:34
Speaker
gold, gold and right there that's even just right now that's the the gratitude in this process of of grieving and stuff is all these things that you just said of being around death so often that it really makes you value life so much more and being way more in tune and alert am I am I leaving
00:45:58
Speaker
a legacy? Am I being able to fulfill my life in a way that is meaningful? Am I being of service? Am I am I leaving a mark some way or another in somebody's life? Right? That that's really kind of what you the the way that that you see that you see life. That is what it that is what it comes down to for me. You know, there are certain words or statements that
00:46:28
Speaker
in my household are not allowed to be used. And it goes back to that point of just being gracious for everything that we have. And one of the things that my kids especially, they are not allowed to say is today's a bad day or it's not fair. And I'm like, you're not allowed to say that.
00:46:54
Speaker
And you're not allowed to say it because you have no idea in your very privileged life, what fair is, what fair is, or what a bad day is, you know, a bad day is, you know, sitting in a doctor's office, learning and being told that you've only got a matter of months left. That's a bad day. You know,
00:47:23
Speaker
You don't get to say that in this house because you just, you don't appreciate life enough. You're not experienced in life enough.
00:47:31
Speaker
to be able to make a statement like that. And the fair too. And anytime my kids say, that's not fair, I'm like, oh, do you know what's not fair? And then I start saying, do you know what's not fair? It's not fair that children are starving. I start going into these things. Do you know what's not fair? It's not fair. I start going into these rants. And I'm like, so no, don't be telling me about fair. That's how it is. They can't say that they're starving.
00:48:01
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, that one too. Don't even do you. I'm going to show you what starving looks like. I'll show you what starving looks like. I do the same. I'm like, I, I, anything that's like finite, like as if it's like, whoa. And I know that it's part of like our, I mean, I know I'm like, I've used that. I've used that term.
00:48:21
Speaker
By the way, I've used it and I have to like reprogram myself to not use it because it was like how I grew up It's all drama, you know being Hispanic like that that I'm a telenovela. Everything's so far So so and plus I studied theater so of course everything's more over-the-top but um
00:48:41
Speaker
But yeah, but those things that are finite, the same with emotions. What you just said about, I'm having a bad day. No, you just had a bad moment, a bad minute, a bad second. Yes, a moment. You didn't have a bad day. You can't say that your whole day is completely out the window based on just this one instant.
00:49:02
Speaker
that you just had. You can't say that. You woke up. You had breakfast. Then you had a bad moment. You can't say you had a bad day. So yeah, I'm with you with that. And I think it's important to say those things to our kids because it's a learning also experience for ourselves because as I'm telling you, I've said the, oh my gosh, I'm starving. I've said that term even though I don't like my kids to say it and I tell them not to say things like that.
00:49:29
Speaker
I'm also learning myself as I'm teaching them to reprogram myself. But, you know, we all do it. Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, because it's part of like, yeah, again, back to like culture and things we're used to saying. But it makes us think really what is really true. And to stop, gosh, I'm like making even things be
00:49:52
Speaker
So what's the word I'm escaping right now for me? The thing that we label things and make them be like as if that's a fact and that is not changeable. So I tell my kids things, sometimes statements of the I am something. I'm like, no, yes, those you can only say that when it's something that is not going to change.
00:50:18
Speaker
You know like but when it's something when it's a moment of like, you know, I I can say I am a woman I am a mother I can't say I am Dumb for example, you know what I mean or things like that I tell them you can't say that kind of stuff because you're not that you know I mean you can't label
00:50:37
Speaker
something like that and make it be part of who you are. You can't use those kind of expressions. Those are the things I'm constantly trying to reframe how they use those words of anything that's making themselves feel less them. You know what I mean? Different if I am smart. Yeah, go ahead. Say I'm smart. You could say that even that.
00:50:58
Speaker
but the things that are negative connotations. Now, how do you juggle all this back to juggling with parenting and taking care of others? And where and how do you find time for you when you're caring and caring and caring, caring for children, caring for people that are dying, caring for the families that are left behind? Where does Alexa fit time for herself? What's your self-care?
00:51:27
Speaker
Ooh. As a caretaker, when is your self care? I try to follow the advice that I give to nearly everyone that I encounter. And it is, I try to take it one moment at a time. I can't always plan and, you know, have this airtight schedule and, you know,
00:51:57
Speaker
I'm going to go to yoga at seven o'clock and that's it. I can't always do that. I can't always have dinner on the table at five 30 or six o'clock. I, I just take, I live in the moment. I make the most of each moment. And if I have an opportunity to just sit back and rest, then that's when I take it. But I also think that taking time for me doesn't always mean
00:52:27
Speaker
only thinking about me or only doing something for me or only just resting. Sometimes I'm taking time for me when I get up on a Saturday to go see a family because it's important to me to do that.
Self-Care Through Service and Fulfillment
00:52:42
Speaker
So finding time for me just comes when it comes.
00:52:47
Speaker
That is so important. What you just said is so moving because you're basically the reason that it's time for you, even if it's going to see a family, is because even though it's, again, your way of serving, it's still so aligned to who you are. So it's still keeping true.
00:53:06
Speaker
to you, even though you're working by going to see a family, it's still time for you because you're being in alignment with you. If you were doing something that you were not passionate about and did not fulfill your trueness and who you are and what you were meant to be doing on this earth, then maybe
00:53:27
Speaker
that would, you know, going in, you know, I don't know, whatever. I don't want to say any particular job description right now instead of that. But something that just was not you, then that may not be your time. But because this is in alignment with you, then you're like, you're following your calling. So for you, it doesn't, it still feels like it's you time. It's me time. Yeah, it's what I want to do. I mean, I used to
00:53:56
Speaker
sometimes find that my husband, I would volunteer and do a lot of overtime. And my husband, he'd be like... Does he know? Does he know you were volunteering? He didn't quite know because he would say, why are you working so much? Or why is your phone still ringing? And I'm like, oh, well, I don't know.
00:54:27
Speaker
Or I would tell him, hey, I'll be right back. I'm just going to go. I'm going to make a quick run. I'll be right down the street. I'll be right back. No worries. I wouldn't tell him what I was doing. But it would be me taking my time. And for me, because I wanted to go visit somebody. I wanted to check on it. It gave me peace of mind to know that that person was OK. And so that's how I used my time. And for him, he's like,
00:54:56
Speaker
but you're working and I'm like, yeah, but it just feels like the right thing to do. It doesn't feel like work. So I'm doing it because I want to.
00:55:06
Speaker
you know that is like a big thing too because a lot of times you know how there's that saying that you basically choose a life you don't have to have a vacation from to some extent like or choose and and that's basically what you're doing because you are doing something you love so much that even going to work is still
00:55:27
Speaker
part of your life that it feels good, it feels good and you don't feel like you're working when you're going to check on these families. So you definitely followed your calling girl, you definitely did and that I am just so grateful that you did because otherwise you might have not crossed our lives and I'm just so grateful. You know what I think of and I don't know if I'm sure you remember this,
00:55:55
Speaker
This was when, do you remember when you guys were getting ready to get your mom packed up so she could catch the flight to Florida? Yes. And we were trying to get her an oxygen tank. Oh yeah. Yeah, because she was already oxygen dependent. Yes. And I was like, I was calling the equipment company and I'm like, I need to get this out here. She's going to be leaving and it has to be here in the morning. And they're like,
00:56:23
Speaker
We're not going to bring it. I was so upset that day. I don't know if you guys can tell. I was so upset. Well, because you know what? You were so, again, going back to what you were saying about being able to fulfill the wishes of the patient. You knew how important it was for my mom.
00:56:43
Speaker
to travel to Florida, even though her health was not really in a situation in which she should have been traveling, you just put yourself in her shoes and you knew that that was important for her. And that's why probably you were so passionate. You're like, no, I need that oxygen. So what happened? I don't even remember. Remind me what happened because I was not on that side. I just know my mom made it to Florida. I don't remember if you did get an oxygen tank. I know that she had, how was that? What happened? Tell me.
00:57:13
Speaker
So what happened was I remember her asking me, it was her and your dad and she said, do you think it's okay for me to make this trip? Or do you think I should wait? And I said, look, do I think that you're in the best condition? No, I would be not, I would be doing you a disservice if I told you, oh yeah, everything's great. But I think the longer you wait, the lesser your chances will be for you to get there.
00:57:42
Speaker
So if you're going to go, you need to go and we're going to make sure that you get there. And so I was on the phone, like arguing with this oxygen company. And finally they're like, well, we're just not going to do it. I don't know what to tell you. And we'll try to get it there tomorrow, but it'll be, they were giving me this crazy window of time. I said, okay.
00:58:02
Speaker
I don't know what we need to do, but I'm going to drive down there." And they were in Covington. I said, I'm going to drive down to Covington, which was a town. I don't even know where that, yeah. How far is that? South? Is it out of Atlanta? I don't even know where it is. It's south of where your parents lived. I would say it's probably about 45 minutes. Okay. Yeah, about 45 minutes or so. That's when you told your husband. What's your husband's name? Irving. You're like, oh, Irving, I'm sorry. I'm just going to go run a little errand. We're going to run a little errand. A little errand, 45 minute drive to go pick up an errand.
00:58:32
Speaker
I think I did tell him something like that because he's like, where? Yeah. What time are you going to be home? And I was like, I think I said, oh, well, I'm finishing up with a patient. I should be headed home soon. And then I rerouted and I drove to Covington to pick up the oxygen traffic in Atlanta. Nice. Nice. Yes. And then I drove it back to your mom's house. I remember getting there.
00:58:57
Speaker
And he was like, well, where are you? I said, oh, well, you know, I'm just caught in some traffic and blah, blah, blah. Well, he's going to know now. He's going to know now when he listens to this how many times now he's going to be checking to make sure that when you do say, I'm just going to go run an errand. Should I not tag? Should I not tag you on the post when I post this? It's moments like that that make it so worth it. Yes. Those are the moments that I remember.
00:59:27
Speaker
Well, the fact that you remember, and again, this was three and a half years ago, the fact that you remember those details about it. And it's huge because you see a lot of patients and for you to remember those things, it's like, uh, it means a lot to me as a family member, you know, of somebody that had your services that you remember that. And the fact that you helped with the process of when we got to, uh,
00:59:53
Speaker
When my mom got to Florida, her insurance was not one that was in that state. And whatever you guys did with your company, with the company that then took care of her, you guys just made it all so seamless. And my mom got exactly her wishes, which were to be with her family when she would pass away. And that's exactly what was possible just because she was in another state. I don't think we would have been able to do that if they had been in Atlanta.
01:00:22
Speaker
It would have not been possible for all of us to be able to be in my parents' home and just be there on time. We could have not been all sleeping in the same house, which we were able to do at my sister's house. It was just orchestrated by
01:00:43
Speaker
whoever we want to believe or whoever each one of us wants to know that orchestrates things like this. I don't believe in coincidences. I think things just kind of happen when they need to happen. And the people that come into your life come into life for a reason.
Honoring Patient Wishes and Family Legacy
01:00:58
Speaker
And you you're a good example of that. Thank you for getting her that oxygen tank. Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean, it was it just
01:01:10
Speaker
It was worth it. It was totally worth it. And then the thing is, she forgot it at home.
01:01:16
Speaker
She didn't even take it with her. Oh, I forgot that detail. You're right. Oh my gosh. And then we had to then, then when she got to Atlanta, to Florida, then they had to try to get one from the palliative care there to my sister's house, to the right, the hospice. Oh my gosh. All that. Cause she called or somebody called. I think it might've been your sister. She called me. She said, we left the oxygen. I know. No, you don't want to hear that. And I was like,
01:01:47
Speaker
I was like, oh my gosh, oh gosh. But you know what? In that moment, I didn't care about anything else. The only thing I was focused on was we've got to get her some oxygen. So I mean, it just makes it worth it. And it it feels it still feels good.
01:02:06
Speaker
It just feels good to be invited into your life. And at that moment too, maybe you just had to be able to go and do that drive because it was going to be the last time you were going to see my mom too. It was the last time you were going to see her. So maybe that the whole, it was really not the point about the oxygen itself, but the fact that
01:02:24
Speaker
you were able to see her before she traveled and, you know, because she, you know, passed away a few weeks after or so. So we never know. You know, sometimes things happen exactly again, how they're meant to be, even though you did drive for a long time. Oh, that was like I said, that wasn't even the time I didn't even care about that. I just, you know, it made it made her happy to know that she was going to be able to get to Florida.
01:02:55
Speaker
And even if that oxygen was just a token of security to help her sleep at night so that she could get up and get on that plane, it was worth it. It was 100, 200% worth it. So there, there were just absolutely no regrets, no frustration. It's something that I sit back and.
01:03:17
Speaker
You know, it just gives me a story to talk about. But you know, I have a box and I keep this little box. Well, I guess it's kind of average sized anyway. And I have little tokens that each of my families that I've taken care of have shared with me. So like I still have your mom's funeral program. Oh, that's wonderful.
01:03:46
Speaker
And the card because someone made cards with flowers. That's my mom. They're made by my mom. Oh, and I still have it. Yeah. My mom had made these. We have like they're pressed. Yeah, like dried flowers. Yeah. Yeah. My mom and her friend had made some years back and they had made a whole bunch. And so yeah, that's handmade. You have a handmade card by my mom. And I still have it. And I don't.
01:04:18
Speaker
I don't ever, I always think about who would I share that with, but I just, I keep it to myself because it's special to me. You know, and when I need to debrief and pull myself together when I'm feeling exhausted and I want to remember why I'm doing this and it's really only because I'm suddenly just exhausted. I pull that little box out.
01:04:48
Speaker
And it just instantly re-energizes me. I have pictures and text messages. And then I remember I did something good for somebody, even though it didn't seem like much to me, because sometimes I don't even know what it is I'm doing. They're like, oh, you did such a great job. I'm like, what did I do? And they're like,
01:05:17
Speaker
You just made it easier. And that's everything to me. No. And the fact that, yeah, it centers you. So when you see that it's just a confirmation, it's a confirmation that you're on the right path. And so anytime you see the box, see the little memories when you're having a hard time, this just brings you back to your center and you know that you're on the right path. You're doing the right thing.
01:05:42
Speaker
and that you'll continue to add more things to that box and continue changing lives one moment at a time, because as you were saying, one moment at a time. Yes, literally one moment at a time. Thank you so much, Alexa. Is there anything else you wanted to share that I might have not asked that you want to leave our audience members with? I know you've said so many good things here that are life lessons for all of us, for sure.
01:06:11
Speaker
Um, you know, I don't, I don't know. I, I don't have anything really profound. Um, you know, I just, I try to live by a code of kindness and compassion for people from all walks of life and.
01:06:39
Speaker
I think the world right now could use a little bit more of that. Yes, indeed. I was just going to ask you that. That's a slogan we should all live by, living by compassion. We're in the middle of a lot right now. Actually, in that, how would you even give your perspective of grieving? Oh my gosh, I'm going to add to this recording by asking you this.
01:07:08
Speaker
What would you say in terms of the grieving of processes and changes like what we're experiencing right now in our world where, as we're recording this, we're still in the middle of COVID. We're also now with the awakening, awakening
Empathy in Societal Issues and Grief
01:07:24
Speaker
really because of a lot of us, a lot of us that were sleeping and not stepping into creating change for justice in this world and especially right now here in the United States. So what would you say would be something that you see in this process of grief and reawakening that we're having? When I think about
01:07:54
Speaker
everything that's happening around us, even globally. But I guess in America in particular right now, the United States, there are some individuals who are disconnected from the experience of fellow humans. And they are disconnected because for two reasons.
01:08:25
Speaker
They offer sympathy when right now a lot of people are really in need of empathy to drive change And I think that in terms of grief You know grief is is in a general way is a response to a loss And I think for the african-american community or people of color in general in
01:08:55
Speaker
the United States, they are still kind of collectively grieving a loss that occurred hundreds of years ago and has just perpetuated. And, you know, the other demographic, the white Americans can't relate to that loss. And so
01:09:24
Speaker
Sometimes it's hard to offer empathy, really put yourself in someone else's shoes to understand the heartache, the rage, the anger, the frustration when it's perpetuated. And when you tell somebody I'm hurting, I'm hurting because it happened then and it's happening now and your pain is dismissed as, you know, irrelevant.
01:09:55
Speaker
How you tied that into the fact of not being able to relate is so similar to when somebody tries to offer sympathy in that moment of grief when somebody's passed away and you're trying to give condolences but at the same time if you haven't had
01:10:13
Speaker
a similar loss and even sometimes when you have had now again and here i use the word loss a death in your family when you haven't had a death in your family and you're trying or even if you have but the way you experienced it is different than the individual you're giving condolences to so therefore even if you have a similar you know you both have had.
01:10:35
Speaker
an experience of death or loss or anything, it's still hard to even know what to say because the person's experience is different than yours. So right now we're all kind of living in that. It's like, oh my gosh, I don't know what I'm going to put out there right now to support this movement. And this awakening is right because it's coming from my perspective, but somebody that's
01:10:59
Speaker
maybe reading or listening to what I'm saying and their perspectives different may take it a completely different way because it's a different experience, even though it's a collective. And so the empathy, and I think it also has to go both ways, right? So for the person that's receiving, I've received condolences in ways that sometimes don't necessarily feel like it's the right words I wanted to hear.
01:11:27
Speaker
I'm like, well, that's not exactly what I wanted to hear right now. It's going to be okay type of thing, those kind of feelings. But you know that it's coming from a good place of who the person's saying. And so therefore you take it and you know it's coming from a good place. And I think right now that's a little bit of what we need in this world is for all of us to have also a little bit more of compassion towards each other and a compassion towards each of our journeys of growth.
01:11:55
Speaker
that we're all experiencing right now. So that if we say the wrong thing, as long as it's coming from the right place in our soul and in our heart, that it's taken in that by the expression of what it's being shared. I don't know if that can relate to what it's doing. It does. It does very much so. And I guess in that same respect, it probably sounds
01:12:25
Speaker
ironic or really strange that even me as a hospice nurse, having done this for a number of years, one of the hardest things for me to do is not delivering the bad news. It's trying to offer condolences because as much as I've experienced this, the dying process with a family,
01:12:55
Speaker
or the disease process with a family, I can never be that family member. I could never be that patient and I could never truly experience what they've experienced. And so as much as I've seen it and as heartfelt as my condolences might be, I always wonder in the back of my mind if it sounds scripted. Yeah. Yeah.
01:13:23
Speaker
But as long I think that it's like you know where it's coming from, you cannot control how another person's gonna receive it, right? You can't control that because that's not something you don't know everybody's background. So again, going back to even what we're experiencing right now in the world, again, all of us, as long as we're coming from a place of trueness and of heart and of love, if it's coming from a place of love, we can't say,
01:13:51
Speaker
the wrong thing. It may be heard differently by everybody, but in terms of who we are, as long as we're saying it from our place of love, even if we say the wrong thing, it didn't come. There, I'm getting all twisted because, yeah, so many of us are not saying the right things at the moments like this. A lot of it, I think, is just it's the energy you put out.
01:14:20
Speaker
You can say anything you want to say, but the energy and the emotion behind your words speak louder than the words that you're actually saying. Yes. So sometimes do you find that even then when you're saying the condolences that sometimes not even the saying the condolences, just the actual, just the fact of just sitting with somebody in that moment is just, it's just as powerful, you know, offering that you're just going to be there being a listening ear or, you know, just offering that.
01:14:49
Speaker
Support that do you feel that that ends up being the most like? Appropriate almost response in general that it's like the safest way to go Sometimes sometimes that is that is my answer. That's my response I you know, I can remember two very specific instances where These there were two different individuals, but I know that I
01:15:20
Speaker
sat. Rather awkwardly it would see. But it meant something to these people. I felt like I was out of place. But apparently my presence made such an impact on them, where I just sat for hours while they cried. And that was it. And they, you know, each time they turned around, and I mean, I would just like for like three, four hours, and they said,
01:15:50
Speaker
Well, thank you for just being here. And that's what they needed. They just needed someone to be a presence in the room while they cried their tears. Because I don't have all the words.
01:16:14
Speaker
Right. And then how would you translate that? And then how do you think that we could be that in moments like right now in which everybody has experienced so much distress with everything, with jobs, you know, people losing jobs right now with everything, with what's going on in the world.
01:16:32
Speaker
with the, again, with the African-American community in our country needing justice and things like that. How do you feel that we can translate that same being present into this circumstance? I think that if each of us as an individual really, truly reflects on who we are,
01:17:01
Speaker
and what our core fundamentals are as individuals, and then listen to the stories of others with an honest understanding of who we are and what our core values are, only then can we move forward. Because if we're not being honest with ourselves and who we are and what we fundamentally believe in, then we can't be honest or listen with an honesty or to anyone else's.
01:17:30
Speaker
situation. We just can't do that. That is that is the cherry on top of advice right now. We can like put that cherry on top and that is the bow to this conversation. Thank you, Alexa, for that knowledge and like being able to
01:17:50
Speaker
navigate this conversation with me as we take people from hospice into how that can relate to this, you know, realness that we're experiencing right now and how you're experienced as a hospice nurse and your viewpoint in seeing death and speak. I mean, gosh, there were so many different things. This is like, I don't even know what I'm going to title this podcast. I don't even know.
01:18:17
Speaker
I'm going to have to come up with something really good so people know how much nuggets are going to get. Thank you once again, Alexa. Well, thank you so very much again for having me and inviting me into your life. I do not take it lightly and I don't take it for granted. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
01:18:44
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:19:13
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.