Transcript
Speaker: We're back in the room! Hang on, he says adjusting his screen. There you go. All right, cool. yeah Okay, we're there, we're there. We're there, we're there, we're there. Where what where are we, Martin? what where Where are... Where are we going? What are we doing? How are we doing it?
Speaker: Firstly, we're glad that you're here. Pull up a pew. Join us. um In our broad church, that is... ADHD floor. A.D.H.D.ville, yeah. It's a very broad church.
Speaker: So let's go to a place where the distractions, the landmarks, and the details are on the main road to welcome to A.D.H.D.ville. Meet the gang, because the book are here, are here, are here, boys to entertain, book to entertain, boys to
Speaker: with a p and i was diagnosed with the combined adhd and the day again dragging and kicking and screaming towards three years ago and i'm martin west and i'm and i was diagnosed with adhd in 2013 and i'm online uh undiagnosed autistic and we are the ex-mayors ADHD and we are hanging out at the King's Agitated Head pub in ADHDville sitting in the back where we are having a drink and taking care of business and this week the business is trauma response yes and we have a quiz ah we have a quiz Trauma response episode 141 would you Adam and Eve it
Speaker: would you adam to an e it no if it's a lot of episodes if someone has said can you do hand will you do 141 episodes i'm like nah mate maybe we probably said that's stretching it isn't it but no we're still stretching it like um yeah we're still we are stretching it like stretch um armstrong um Right.
Speaker: Well, ah so I believe this is all... ah Let's jump in the tractor. Yeah. I think we're going to the spa aren't we, Martin?
Speaker: I think that's a good idea because as we're talking about trauma, I think we need to go somewhere. Right. Also because that's what you wrote on the script. That is exactly what I did, mate. Oh, my God.
Speaker: Yes. Yes.
Speaker: The exact opposite of trauma. need when You when you experience trauma, of what you need is like fridge full of cucumber slices.
Speaker: you know That's exactly like what you need. That's exactly what you need. And if you're feeling particularly traumatic, you can increase the the kind of the thickness of the slices. Oh, I see. Apparently that's how it works. Oh, so so depending on how much trauma you have, is yeah directly relational to the thickness of the cucumber. and that's So if you see someone with whole cucumbers in their eyes,
Speaker: two cucumbers yeah they've had a fucked up life they're probably looking they probably need a hug oh god yeah and the rest or not yeah ask ask if they want a hug because honestly if you're that level oh yes especially if you're autistic i think that's more of an autistic autistic trait isn't it what's that Hugs.
Speaker: Oh, no, I mean. Not liking them. it's It's honestly, it's it's across the board. um ADHD and autistic.
Speaker: I mean, well, I mean, it's eights it's a trauma response. So anything that has given you trauma will. Well, that's topical. I know, mate.
Speaker: Bang on topic, that is. Bang on. Bang on Topic. It's bang on topic also because um one of the reasons why we're doing this subject to today is because there's um a recent report that's come out, recent research.
Speaker: I don't know how many people it is. I don't even know where it was. But apparently it's significant enough that people are paying attention to it. um More specifically...
Speaker: What came out was that if you um are an individual, like Martin is an individual. Hey. I'm an individual, hello. um You are indeed an ADHD, an adult ADHD individual. You are roughly four times more likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder or severe trauma responses following an adverse event compared to nero ne neurotypical peers.
Speaker: And that's a lot. That's a lot. You know, when you get, like, um research comes out and they say, oh, you know, it's like 1.75 times more likely. No, this is four times more likely. 400%, mate.
Speaker: You know? Yeah. Yeah. he nice is yeah So even if they missed something, they list they me maybe as they're doing any research, because it it often depends on the numbers, 400% is not leaving, it's not there's not a lot of wiggle room in that, is there?
Speaker: No. No. Because because you you sent me a link and it had like, it was like a, It was like a a someone else's summary?
Speaker: Yes. of the Of the thing. Of the findings. Right. So i I searched around to try and find the the original Okay, the specific research.
Speaker: Research. um Which had a bit of trouble finally, but it looks like it was from 2016. And it's a sort of a... No, it's definitely from, it's really recent. It's like this it last for literally in the last three weeks it's come out.
Speaker: All right. Okay. Then I shall reverse... b be out of that um because I was having trouble finding it. Okay. So i was science so I'm just going off of the ah of the the summary.
Speaker: Okay. Okay. So but top apparently of the reasons why we're 400% more likely to be affected by trauma is because the ADHD brain operates with an over, and I'm reading this because this is important to get right,
Speaker: it ah Our ADHD brain operates with an overactive stress response system and a smaller working memory capacity. So that when trauma hits, the ADHD brain has less cold cognitive buffer to process it, causing the trauma to manifest in highly specific behavioral responses.
Speaker: Okay. I think this is very interesting because it kind of um plays into the hands of Gabor Mate, who's who says he's not genetic at all.
Speaker: And it's purely ADHD is purely a trauma response. wait what Now, I think this proves that. to me it's both what what i think that if you are genetically um you know you uh genetically uh we've probably inherited it from our parents okay but if you also in parallel had trauma during your childhood
Speaker: you're much more likely to suffer severe effects of ADHD. No, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, like um from what I got out of it, and the reason why 400% higher is because you have ADHD and that makes your life struggle.
Speaker: Therefore you fail at things. Therefore there's more shame. and then that circles back and then, you know, that, you know, and then, yeah then, then, you know, like it starts to fuck you up and then you fuck up more and then you try harder and then you, you know, and then, and that cycle just causes that cycle just causes the trauma.
Speaker: Yeah. As you're saying, the the shame of not fitting in and trying to force yourself to fit in, you know, and the double shame of being inauthentic, you know.
Speaker: Yeah. so it's like For me, shame is such a massive part. I think, talking of trauma response, shame is a massive one.
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. yeah yeah um It shouldn't ever be underestimated how important shame is. I think pretty much anyone who has ADHD. Right.
Speaker: because ah Because I think if you do have ADHD or your LDHD, I think you kind of like look at that, this this study and go, duh.
Speaker: Yeah, like, yeah, of course, of course, like for us. Yeah, sure. We get it. And and and I feel like sometimes the the scientific the scientific community takes a while to kind of like.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, they're kind preaching to the converted for to us. I mean, the report isn't for us, is it really? Right, right, right. This research is not for us.
Speaker: You know, they're preaching to the converted. Right. So I guess... Yeah, duh. Yeah, this is what we're saying. But at least there is research being done and costing a lot of money, usually. Research is really expensive, generally. Right.
Speaker: yeah So it is being done. And... um 400%, like I said at at the beginning. That's a big thing. It's not like 1.3 or something.
Speaker: Right. There's no wiggle room at all. It's like yeah pretty freaking convincing. i would so I would suspect that autism is is as high.
Speaker: It might even be higher. um Yeah. than that my That's what my gut says. But um there'd be that that'd be in my gut.
Speaker: My gut says that, I mean, the this a there's a really good, it's actually a really good podcast called The Hidden 20%. it's It's a podcast about autism.
Speaker: The reasons why it's called the hidden 20% is that they think that the real number is about 20% of the population is neurodiverse, right?
Speaker: I think it's much higher. Mate, mate, I, like, honestly, if if I was an alien, I don't know, i no, no, let's just say that I i forgot all of the so so statistics and i and I didn't know any any of that.
Speaker: And someone said, from from my lived experience, what do you think the percentages between neurotypical and neurodivergent? And I would kind of go,
Speaker: ah' I don't know, mate, 50-50? Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. That's what it feels like to me. Totally. And what I think is, I think, I don't know whether it's because of my hypervigilance and I'm good at ah pattern recognition, blah, blah, blah, but I think that, A, in about 20 years, neurodiversity will be given 20 different names, maybe 30,
Speaker: or at least I hope it does, because it's mostly about language. It's about what we call it. you know And ADHD would be like history in about 20 years' time there as a description, right? Yeah. the Yeah. Because even me and you, we're really different.
Speaker: We've got a lot of similarities, but we're really different as well. Right. Because like as as as far as I can work out, you you can take... you know, like a whole bunch of people with various mental, you know, like just the the whole range of mental stuff, right? Like autism and, and you know, ah anxiety disorders and all of them, right?
Speaker: All of them. And it's just like, Everyone's different. They all have a slightly different pattern. And I kind of feel like, well, you know what?
Speaker: You know, like someone went, someone grouped a bunch over here and called it something. Then they grouped another bunch and called over here and called it something else. Exactly. And it's like, are these...
Speaker: They're helpful, yeah but will they change over time? Will we kind of go, oh, you know what? We have to unravel this because we yeah we've we've worked out something about the the the brain um and actually we should categorize them in a different way.
Speaker: And we'll talk about categorizing. the The general accepted categories is an American system that's only updated every 10 fucking years, right? Right, yeah.
Speaker: And not only that, it's a well-known given that the whole categorization system, okay, is only for insurance purposes.
Speaker: It's totally generated by health insurance so that they know how how and or if to give out insurance claims. Oh, right. Which is completely different to actual need.
Speaker: and reality. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. No, i I, yeah, that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. The whole DSM thing feels... Exactly.
Speaker: It feels like a sort of ah a first stab at something. Yeah. Well, being gay 20 years ago in the DSM was considered to be a disease.
Speaker: Right. Right. i Yeah. Psychological disease. So I have actually thought about this before and it's like, well, if it changed, would we have to change the name of the podcast? Oh, massively, yeah. ay It isn't ADHDville anymore.
Speaker: Oh, massively. Well, I mean, in one one way, i hope it doesn't, but in most most ways, I hope it does. Well, the thing about what came out of this in this um research was there was three or four typical trauma responses that they were, they talked about. Okay.
Speaker: One of them was chronic hypervigilance. Okay. Right. Which is the over activated fight or flight response. Okay. Yes. Even to the extent, the extent of, um, they remarked about how some people with ADHD or, and or autism can listen to someone's footsteps and,
Speaker: and take a judgment on how stressed they are. yeah Or how they're going to, you know what mean? And i I definitely have that. That's something I definitely have.
Speaker: Reading the room, all of these kind of things. So this to say it's pretty typical in a neurological in the neurodiversity community. Right.
Speaker: a yeah But yeah, it is, to be clear, it is not it is not part of ADHD. It's not part of autism. It's a trauma response. that's fallen out of those of those yeah those conditions, as well as all kinds of others. i mean like god It's not a definition of ADHD. It's a symptom of it.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. It's like I can imagine if I had an alcoholic father, I didn't, but I would... i i would I would know what mental state he was in by some tiny, yeah, something like how he walked or yeah or what he, you know, or how he came home or how he closed the front door after after work. Like those small things would be, know, my nervous system would be like calibrated
Speaker: to these tiny little... I had a friend that actually had that exact experience with his father. right so his dad came home drunk from the pub at night he would be able to read he would know how serious the situation was going to how he's going to escalate judging on how heavy his footsteps were yeah nuts right that's nuts right yeah um so yeah the other things was um zoning out deep dissociation and zoning out as a trauma response
Speaker: I can put my hand up to this massively. I know, now I know it, since I got diagnosed with ADHD, and I can see various times in my life in the past when i I have, when things have got tough in a relationship or with my professional life, I start to disassociate.
Speaker: And it's a red flag. you know what i mean yeah it's a big red flag disassociation yeah i do all the time well not all the time but but mean like chunks of my day i'm disassociating yeah on my phone oh massively exactly um there's another one fawning and chronic rejection sensitivity Fawning is a trauma response where a person automatically develops to people-pleasing, over-appeasing, and abandoning their own boundaries to avoid conflict or abandonment.
Speaker: It's a massive one as well. Yeah, that would be me. Yeah. like I have been getting better over the years, but yeah, I mean, yeah absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker: I've got better at it, especially since I got diagnosed, definitely. Right. When I started giving less of a shit about other people's feelings.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a game changer. And game changer is not an expression I like to use very much because it's such an overused expression.
Speaker: Like exclamation marks. Exactly. Who's a fucking game changer? Fuck off, it's not a game changer. Anyway, this case it was, for me at least.
Speaker: Yeah, it's really liberating to start caring a bit less about about pleasing other people. right Massively liberating. But it's it's weird because you know because you grow up and you like try and be the person that the other person wants you you to be, like what your mum wants you to be, what your dad wants you to be, what your brother or what the teacher wants you to be, what but your mates, what you want you you to be. So you end up like being all these different versions of yourself. Right. So you're fawning and you're people pleasing. And then as as like I didn't really realize the impact of that until someone would say, ah Martin, what do you want? I'm like, yeah, what do you want to want?
Speaker: I don't know. I don't know well what I want. That's really interesting. Ask someone else what want. Yeah, that's really interesting, Martin, because I remember once I was having some real problems at work dealing with dealing with some um um sort like an interpersonal you know problems with a colleague.
Speaker: and um And it was going on for weeks and weeks, not just like overthinking it massively. And then it got to the point, I remember exactly where I was, I was walking along the street in Rygate where i used to live and work.
Speaker: And I came up with that exact question to myself, Martin, Paul, what the fuck do you want? Mm-hmm. And that was really liberating, you know, that simplicity like, filtering out all the shit, like, Paul, what do you want?
Speaker: And I thought, I need to leave that agency. Right. Right.
Speaker: Yeah, i I find it quite difficult to know. i mean, even now I would have to process like if someone says, oh what do you want? Blah, blah, blah. And I will have to sit and unless I've previously thought it and come up with an answer. I'll have to sit and kind of go and work it out in my head. Like I'll get back to you. I'll have to think about what it is that I want.
Speaker: But it's always those simple questions isn't it? It's like, who are you? Who am I? do I want? are the most challenging, you know, really the most challenging. Right. thing But um but the the thing about fawning and people-pleasing, the upside to that in my life has been, right, so um I go to an interview. i will be the person that that person wants for the interview.
Speaker: So I can get the job. I am in the job. They want me to be this person. I will be that person. And i will...
Speaker: get better jobs and go up through the ranks earn more money and win awards and get the big jobs and all of that, right?
Speaker: and in Like, it weirdly... can make you very successful until because you turn into a chameleon don't you until until yes and you just become the thing that the environment wants you to be at that time and yeah and if you're kind of like you know skilled or smart or whatever you can make it work for you and that's yeah fine-ish until it all goes away right until so until yeah no one asks you you know uh what wants you to be anything in in particular and then you're like oh who the fuck am i i've just been this other person for like the last 20 years and it's it's been a mixed bag and i've got you know i bought a house and cars and shit and awesome but like
Speaker: Who am i I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me. Jim Carrey's been a very really interesting example of this. He just said he became, there was, ah there was um the person that people saw, Jim Carrey, on films became Jim Carrey.
Speaker: And there was no blur between him and the real Jim Carrey. There was no difference between the the um the one in the movies and the one in real life.
Speaker: And he completely lost his shit. Yeah. He did a... What was that movie where he was the comedian? um Yeah. It's a great film.
Speaker: Right. So he had to, like... He methodacted method to be... He methodacted as a famous comedian, American comedian. Yeah. like And he was in the sitcom, American sitcom called Taxi.
Speaker: Right. Kaufman. Kaufman. Kaufman. Right. Exactly. And that movie... fucked him up.
Speaker: Fucked up Jim Carrey because he just became, he just he would just like rewired his whole brain to be that person. Well, on Netflix, there's the making of that film.
Speaker: Oh. And you can literally so watch him like in a ah total mess. Right. there you go. He was literally in the taxi on the way to the set every day. was almost like 24 hours day.
Speaker: in the character of kaufman right yeah so there you go that's that's so that fawning i mean that's it's easy it's easy it seems like an exaggerated example but you know people pleasing is that you do anything to avoid um rejection sensitive dysphoria you know you do anything to accept reject to to re to avoid the rejection by just pleasing people right to the point where you totally lose a sense of who the fuck you are right but my point is that is that it's not just like oh it's simple to say yeah just don't do it because actually it weirdly our society it it
Speaker: It likes you to do that. It wants it's it it it it's really it it it it it rewards you for it. well How many people live a lie?
Speaker: I mean, come on. Almost everyone. Almost everyone lives a lie, you know? right Yeah, but if you can be the thing that the people around you want you to be and you're bloody good at it,
Speaker: Especially at work, professionally. Yeah. It's like, woohoo, win, win, win. Yeah, totally. But at a cost. Yeah. At a cost. At a cost because, I mean, I've i've said several times in different episodes of the podcast, I had a breakdown, mental bla breakdown when it was about 12 years ago.
Speaker: And I just completely, because this there's ah this there's a limit to how far you can go with that way of living. And I reached the end of it. Right.
Speaker: Totally, to the point where, and well, you know this story, Martin, but and and anyone who doesn't listen to all of the episodes, that i I was in a ah pharmacy one time, um just on a normal, you know,
Speaker: um visit to a pharmacy and there was this column a structural column inside the pharmacy that had glass from floor to ceiling on it and i looked and i caught my reflection in the glass and i was an empty vessel oh zimey and i it scared the hell out of me right but at the same time however traumatic that was We're talking about trauma.
Speaker: However traumatic it was, it's the best thing ever happened to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, there is. Even trauma itself has everything, has an upside to it.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, every cloud has a silver lining, as I Right, if if you can work your way through that, then you're a better person. but Yeah, well, the if is the key word there, isn't it?
Speaker: right if I know people that have never worked it out or not not even started. yeah They're too scared to to start. yeah I know plenty of people.
Speaker: matt And then not necessarily, you know ah ah quite often near neurotypical as well. yep Or maybe even more likely to be neurotypical.
Speaker: I think the neurodiverse community are just... We're slightly more open to the idea of starting from scratch, you know? Right. And re-evaluating their lives. But there are more people whose lives have gone off the rails right who who are neurodivergent. So whether they end up in in prison or whether they don't make it out at all. So I i would think that... Prison is full of...
Speaker: Right. Neurodiverse community. Right. that and that That we suffer the most yeah for that. Yeah.
Speaker: And substance abuses, et cetera. Okay. Another thing that came out of it was maladaptive hyperfocus and splintered executive functioning. What is that, I you ask? I'm about to tell you what that is. When trauma introduces a profound sense of helplessness, the ADHD mind will often try to claw back a sense of control by weaponizing its capacity to hyperfocus.
Speaker: What does that look like? Well, I'm glad you asked. They may become obsessively consumed by a singular rigid project, a research rabbit hole, or a technical task to the complete exclusion of their basic physical needs, eating, sleeping, and hygiene.
Speaker: Right. Yeah, yeah. So that's like... Rabbit holes. That's like you can save the day, basically. It's that sort of Superman.
Speaker: I will swoop in and hyper-focus on something and everything will be absolutely fine yeah at the cost of everything else. Everything else. Yeah. or you go down the rabbit hole...
Speaker: And that rabbit hole, I mean, my rabbit holes could last sometimes months, right? If I was in a particular season with my with my job.
Speaker: You come out the other end, and I think there's some element of oh this hope it sorted itself out sorted itself out in the meantime, so don't have to deal with it when I come out the other end.
Speaker: right oh sense you mean like sort of avoiding ignore it hope it goes away that yeah ignoring tough stuff by hyper focusing on something else yeah yeah yeah i mean i am you i will put put my hand up to to that every day of the week yeah exactly so um what they're saying is that there's an there's a cumulative effect to all of these ways that we respond to trauma okay and they call it a structural loop what makes this so difficult is that the ADHD and trauma live in bi-directional loops okay the executive functioning deep deficits of ADHD make it harder to emotionally regulate and file away traumatic memories while the trauma itself actively worsens
Speaker: working memory and impulse control, making the baseline ADHD symptoms um feel significantly heavier. Right.
Speaker: ah but i was I was having this conversation the other day, which is like, yeah you you Yeah, you kind of get these traumas, right? And they build up over time.
Speaker: yeah and your And they're stored in your body generally and your and your in your nervous system.
Speaker: adapts itself to that. Yes. Yes. So that you're toxic it is. Right. It becomes a comfort blanket. Well, yeah yeah. I mean, you just kind of like your entire person. It becomes about.
Speaker: your trauma and and and trying to work, you know, trying to live a life with it, right? And your brain and your logical thinking are completely separate, right? there is So it's like, so i can I can think about having trauma and go, oh, yes, I do have trauma. i've had I have a narcissistic...
Speaker: who caused me all kinds of trauma but just knowing it doesn't isn't enough help no it's just like you need the language don't you need the language well it's you have to train your nervous system yeah into, you know, into kind of calming down when it gets believe it's are triggered and and you have to like change your entire life so that yeah so that actually you can function better. But just knowing your traumas. No, no, totally. It just doesn't solve anything.
Speaker: Well, much. There's ah another two aspects I think you need. are potentially shed loads of energy to sort it out. Yeah. i A lot of energy. You have to sleep well. of Exactly.
Speaker: You also need a lot of courage. Eat well. Because it's much easier it's much easier just to ignore it. Right. Exercise. And all these things, sleeping, eating, exercise, I was the saying, they get they they get sacrificed yeah oh ah early doors for other things. yeah and Or you have trouble sleeping, which a lot of people do.
Speaker: ah You know, and trouble having eating issues and will only like certain foods. yeah And they're not necessarily good for you particularly. so i was thinking also about mental energy as well. It's like when, if maybe tomorrow or one day I decide, okay, I'm going to go back into therapy.
Speaker: that requires a hell of a lot of mental energy. Right. You know, that every time you have an appointment, you're thinking, of well, if you think like I do, I want to make the most of the money that I'm spending. So I go in there with a plan, you know, and of what I want to say or what I don't want to say. um And I found that exhausting. When you stop, it's quite sort liberating, I found.
Speaker: But, okay, I can not think about that for a bit. Right. Because I can stop analyzing it. Right. Because that mental energy has to come from somewhere and it will come from sleep and food and exercise and all those other things. Right.
Speaker: And or and adapting your life so that you you you don't get worn down all the time by it, by it, by it, by things. Right. So. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah But there's a lot of people that don't do it. I'm convinced a lot of people don't do it because they are basically shit scared to start it. Well, not only that, not only that, because they may have a sense of, and I think I probably, add because when you start thinking about it, you go, oh, shit, you literally have to change things.
Speaker: everything everything yeah you have to start again almost yeah that's scary right your entire life i mean not only is it scary but it takes a lot of yeah thinking because it's like well okay So I have to have sleep. Right. Okay. Well, I'm getting really bad sleep. Why am I not getting bad sleep? Oh, because I go to bed really late. Why am I not going to bed really late? Oh, because of this, that, and the other. Oh, maybe I have to change X, Y, Z. Let's try that. Oh, that didn't work.
Speaker: Let me try this. maybe Maybe it's the food. Maybe I'm, maybe I have to change the food. Maybe i have to do this. So even, even going into it with like all the good intentions, it's requires a healthy,
Speaker: Plus, you're in a relationship if you're a relationship, or you have a family, young especially a young family to deal with, that's hard. That's yeah really hard. Because it's like i always say to people,
Speaker: Look, depression is a very, very um um egocentric place to be. Selfish. It's a very selfish thing.
Speaker: Because it has to be. what pick pick because Because it just is. i mean It just is. You can't you you haven't got any... capacity to sort out anyone's anyone else's problems. and And that isn't a character fraud. I'm not saying that as ah as a... It's just how it is. It's just... it but Yeah, it's it's it's you. Which can be really hard on your partner or your family, you know.
Speaker: Right, because you've got your traumas, right, that you have and you're bringing these things into to a a ah you a relationship. and And not only do you have to like work on yourself, but yeah you're also your interaction with your partner because that they have their own staff.
Speaker: that they're working on perhaps, hopefully. Massively. And you've got the the dynamics between you two as as a whole other thing.
Speaker: Like, it's almost easier if you're single to go through it than it is to be like, it's harder. If you're really honest with your partner and your family just before you go into therapy, right?
Speaker: Especially is if you know that it's particularly something critical, like manic depression or something like that. The honest thing to say before you meet with your new psychologist is to say to your partner and your family, look, I'm going to be really fucking selfish for the next 18 months.
Speaker: Right. You know? And I'm sorry that that's going to happen, but that's just that us how it's going to be. Right. Which is not easy.
Speaker: i mean, it's easy to say, but not easy to do because because your entire life thus far, you've got kids or ah or a partner whatever, has been structured around you having a role.
Speaker: Right. Playing this role within it. And then you're saying, I'm not going to do that any anymore. Then everyone's like, what the fuck? So you're forcing them to change.
Speaker: Right. And they usually don't want to. So they'll fight you. so that you don't change even though you're going I'm going to be selfish and do this for me they'll be going oh hell no you won't yeah and they will fight you so now not only are you fighting yourself to to to kind of like you know but you have to fight your closest your nearest and dearest as well and often that's like you know what I can't I just can't do all of that
Speaker: Or the other thing that can happen is when I had my kind of like mental breakdown, I left my wife and therefore my my son was going through the trauma that he had of his parents splitting up.
Speaker: And I found it really difficult to be there for him at that point when he really needed a fucking adult, you know, yeah help him. And all he could see was like he saw me on a couple of the times when I was just in ah in a meltdown.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I totally get you. So you've got all, no like so you you know, I am the the same and you end up with... Now you've got more trauma that you're adding on because now you're not there for your kid. And now you've got all the guilt.
Speaker: So that comes with it. So you're just now piling more stuff on. And then you've got your partner going, what the fuck are you doing? And it's like, oh, God, I've let you down as well. like, oh, jeez. Yeah, yeah. So trauma and more shame.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. and Also, the worst kind of shame. You know, and there's a like people that, you know, kids that are, you know, the most innocent in right in or in all of this. And as part of you and your trauma, you're now potentially giving trauma to, know, your partners, your ex-partner now, or, you know, like, your kids.
Speaker: yeah You you're now spreading that fucking bullshit. around yeah yeah yeah in your attempt to try and sort yourself out. Oh, i do anyway. Yeah. It's it's anyway so yeah it's ah it's it's um it's a biggie, isn't it? i mean, I kind of knew this subject was going to be a big one because, you know, trauma response is, um oh, ah one last anecdote, well, from my part anyway, one last anecdote. I remember the last time I had a meltdown
Speaker: And it was mentioned in another podcast ah when related to this you new research. This kind of thing was mentioned. I'll tell you what happened to me.
Speaker: The last time I had a meltdown, I got really anxious and nervous. And I started shouting and I was like like punching the wall and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: And then... out of nowhere, I just completely snapped out of it really fast. Right. And they said that is a classic ADHD response to trauma.
Speaker: All right. And I felt shaming out. and I was thinking, kid what was that about? Was that all false? Was I making it all up? No, was because it was this kind of object permanence thing, you know,
Speaker: in In that one second, it wasn't a problem anymore. I just snapped out of it. Right. And you look back and go, what the hell was that all about? Yeah. and then you so I mean, that creates its own shame loop.
Speaker: like Yeah. Like, that was stupid. i was thinking, what did my partner think? it' just like suddenly seeing Paul snap out of it in one second, going from a meltdown to being completely okay.
Speaker: in a nanosecond. I was thinking, it what the fuck is that about? Weird. Very weird. But they they gave, they said it was quite a common thing in ADHD and autism.
Speaker: e yeah i Does that happen to you? Does that land? No, I tend to like i i tend to be a lot slower. I have to kind of come down by steps. I don't snap out of it.
Speaker: I just ramp down. Okay. Over time. Over time. Okay. Wow. That was a deep dive.
Speaker: It was a deep dive. e Alright, where the fuck am I in the in the in the script? Alright, so ah do we... i Is there any other... No, I'm i'm pretty i'm pretty much there.
Speaker: Alright. On the trauma response. Oh, good lord. Alright, well, let's go to our ratings and i see what we feel about this.
Speaker: Balance of time. Balance of time. Right, trauma and trauma responses. it a dopamine hit or is it a burnout thing? Oh, live with this one's easy, actually, isn't it?
Speaker: Dopamine zero, burnout 10. There you go. There we go. I think... Is there are a good side to it? No. Yes. well i ah Okay, look.
Speaker: I'm going to be the play devil's advocate, I guess. I've just thought of one. I've just thought of a positive. Go on, then. I know so all facets of my personality.
Speaker: Because I've lived out so much trauma in so many different ways. I know pretty much the my boundaries. Right. All right. That's the positive, isn't it? That that is, absolutely.
Speaker: So so i would say dopamine, I'd say trauma responses. Oh, God. this is the I mean, this is where take me with a pinch of salt, with a fistful of salt here, right? Right.
Speaker: Trauma responses are ways that make you deal with your and your anxiety, right? About yeah like various... Okay. and well it's It's a response. yeah It's what you do in in response to the so the traumas that you have.
Speaker: And you get a reward... from it. yeah So it's like in my in my example, my traumas have brought along a great deal of success in my life and nice things and money and all sorts of, you know, I've traveled the world, right? And it's mostly on the… And the seven seas… Right. And and my my sense of humor is a direct result of my trauma.
Speaker: So, yeah, and your true and your sense of humour sucks. It does. It's awful. My first psychologist said, Paul, you've had all of this trauma, but...
Speaker: That trauma has given you certain level of success, she said. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. So I'm saying that... Oh, God, yeah.
Speaker: You know what? i and know i'm able to say I'm going to say i'mnna say burnout 10, right? It will get you. It will get you if you don't get you deal with it. It will get you. But the dopamine hit is is pretty good. I'd say it's like an eight.
Speaker: Right. Right. So now I'm changing my mind. Well done, Martin. Very good job. think there's quite a lot to add I've always been saying for the last three years, my sensitivity is my best friend and my worst enemy.
Speaker: Right. But I wouldn't be as sensitive as sensitive as I am had I not experienced so much trauma. Right. Exactly. So did my anden by sensitivity is my best friend.
Speaker: There is definitely an upside, but I would say... Fair enough, mate, fair enough. I would say caveat all of that, because if you don't deal with your trauma, you are in trouble.
Speaker: You will be in trouble. So, um yeah. Even if ignorance ignorance's bliss, mate, you know there's a lot people that are really good at pretending that nothing ever bad has ever happened. There's no regrets...
Speaker: and And it's completely bullshit. And sometimes i really envy them, but mostly I don't. I know. Jesus. It was it was like oh my my is like listening to my mum on her deathbed, right?
Speaker: My mum, who is a complete narcissist, would say, I've had a pretty good life. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. It's just been really, really good. You know, and I'm thinking, no, you were a fucking nightmare. You just caught shit all over the place.
Speaker: You didn't, you had to like a, well that's a classic narcissist isn't it cause trauma left right and center that's the classic last narcissist because they cannot ever bear to um face up to their their um um yeah their reality and their reality right yeah he buried all right buried right well okay excellent stuff in the tractor
Speaker: make her way over to and she's left a note and uh yes martin and it was rather rather long It's a word. Well, I'll shorten it.
Speaker: She said she screamed with joy when she saw the title of the episode. Love it, she said. So if you go back to the last episode, it's about um ah composure. Ah, that's about Room 101. Room 101, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: um And so she said she she sch was, I like this. She said she wants to put her co co-worker in Room 101. So, yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? she's Sounds like she's having a nightmare with a yeah with one of her co-workers.
Speaker: This sounds horrendous. right coach yeah She says that she wants to slap her. Right. So I've pulled up ah the ah the Room 101.
Speaker: to judge and I've basically copied and pasted um ah what Alexandra said about her co-worker and we'll see whether it whether we can put her co-worker into room 101 or not and it comes back as yes You can put your coworker in Room 101. It says the reason is not not because you hate her, and not because you wanted to slap her. The court strongly dis discourages workplace assault, no matter how tempting the fantasy may be, but because there is a special category of colleague whose superpower is turning ordinary interactions into unpleasant experiences.
Speaker: so yeah apparently apparently alexandra said she even said it out loud that she wanted to slap her that's a nightmare well i know it's now so she's she's now banished so uh you can feel good about about about that that's good but the para The power of being um the co-mayors of ADHD, we can do these things. Right.
Speaker: So ah if you've got any comments about this ah epi episode or any of our other episodes, ah get into ah YouTube youtube um or where you get your podcasts and make some comments and we'll...
Speaker: And what will we do, Paul? we might we might We might read them out on a future podcast. Oh, marvellous. All right, let's crack on and go to the quiz. It's a quiz.
Speaker: It's a quiz. It's a quiz where Paul and I like the echo effect that you put on your voice then. It makes you sound really I'm like mysterious and professional.
Speaker: um national ah So Paul and I, um we we ask each, we we take take turns to ask each other like ah sort of two truths and a life format kind of thing. yes And it's the first to 10 and we are currently at five each.
Speaker: So it's even Stevens going into this round. Small square. And it's your turn to ask the questions. And the theme is, um strangely much, the theme is um trauma.
Speaker: Okay. manage Trauma management. Hello, Eddie. Oh, is he in the background? Oh, yeah. He's in the background. Yeah. He looks very wobbly. Yeah.
Speaker: he He's his his's old. Bless him. Okay. Anyway, so, Martin. Yeah. I'm going to... We're going to talk about three different famous people that so um demonstrated ah trauma in different ways.
Speaker: Okay. Okay? All right. And you have to um decipher... from their trauma experience, how it um um how it ah how it was borne out, what kind of trauma did they display.
Speaker: Okay. How would you categorize it? Anyway. Okay. It will be clear as we go through All right. So we start with the first one. Frida Kahlo Martin, Frida Kahlo, famous miss Mexican artist, okay? she channel She channeled her immense physical pain and emotional trauma from her relationship with Diego Rivera into raw visceral paintings, Martin.
Speaker: aha In psychodynamic terms, transforming traumatic pain into culturally available art is known as Which defence mechanism?
Speaker: ah okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm tracking. A, fawning. Okay, what it, a fawning thing? All right. B, sublimation. All right.
Speaker: C, disassociation. Or D, fight. There's four categories, I'm cheating. What? fawning, sublimation, disassociation or fight.
Speaker: So she channeled her immense physical pain into a creative channel. Oh, okay. Eddie's been really quiet for 140 episodes. That's the first time I've heard him bark. I know he's barking. Hang on, hang on. First time I've heard him bark, ever. I know, I know. I'm just going to let him out the door.
Speaker: Oh no, he's coming back around. I would say, i'm going to say fight. It is a fight risk risk response. I can understand why you said that, but you're wrong.
Speaker: It's supplementation. This adaptive defense mechanism converts unmanageable traumatic or instinctual impulses into socially productive and creative outlets.
Speaker: Okay. Okay. Next one. Next one. Marilyn Monroe, Martin. Marilyn Monroe, okay. They're all women, actually, just so you know.
Speaker: Many biographers note that Marilyn Monroe frequently altered her vocal register to a breathy, childlike whisper.
Speaker: It's a famous word, right? Happy birthday you. yeah Okay. and And adopted a highly compliant non-threatening persona when dealing with abusive studio executives.
Speaker: yeah In complex trauma theory, this unconscious shifting of our identity to minimize danger is called yeah oh okay somatization,
Speaker: okay hysterical fight, depersonalization, right or D, trauma-induced fawning.
Speaker: It definitely feels like trauma-induced fawning, surely. Correct.
Speaker: It says, modifying one's voice, stature, and desires to appear completely non-threatening softens the aggressions of dominant figures.
Speaker: He's quite aware. Nice. All right. So next question. Next question. Joan of Arc. This is an interesting one. Uh-huh.
Speaker: Historical accounts of Joan of Arc describe her as entering states of profound, unbothered calm. A bit like you, Martin.
Speaker: And experienced vivid auditory and visual visions during brutal military seizures or intense hostile inter interrogations. Yes.
Speaker: From modern trauma perspective, what psychological buffer does this suggest? Okay. A, somatic hyperarousal. Okay.
Speaker: so B, behavioral fawning. No. C, active analytical flight.
Speaker: No. Or D, compartmentalized disassociation. Last one. Bravo! Yes. Exactly. says, the mind detaches from immediate terrifying environmental data by shifting consciousness into a safer internal or spiritual landscape.
Speaker: Yep. I thought this was interesting. A bit easy, but interesting. There are like so many different ways that people manage their trauma.
Speaker: I thought it was quite interesting. That puts me at six and you at five. um So I am one ahead going into next week.
Speaker: um So speaking of next next next week, next week's episode, let's talk about that. um Yes. So I thought let's talk about that it's my turn.
Speaker: It's my turn, mister. um I thought as we were heading into the summer at full speed, and those days are getting hot, I thought we were talking about ADHD and the vacation paradox. Now, the vacation paradox is like you're stressed, you go on vacation or or a holiday if you're a Brit, um and you' and you're still stressed.
Speaker: Yes. all throughout yeah Or even more stressed. Yeah. Like vacations can stress you. And then you come back and you're like, God, i need a vacation from my vacation. Yeah.
Speaker: Okay, good one. So we're going to talk about that and maybe I'll i'll i'll come up with a couple of ah things that that we can all do just to try and chill out. God, the wind's blowing in the... Blimey, that was... Separate holidays. Yeah.
Speaker: All right. So... said I'm looking forward to ah to that. So that just leaves me to say ADHD VOL is delivered fresh every Tuesday to all providers of fine podcasts. Please subscribe to the pod and rate us as the least traumatic podcast ever.
Speaker: in the world. Yeah, why not? Why not? And feel free could to correspond at will in the comments. But wait, there's more. If you wish to see our beautiful, beautiful faces from Sally Forst and YouTubes and the TikToks.
Speaker: Or Sally Fields. And you can pick up a quill and email us at adhdpill at gmail.com. But in the meantime, be fucking kind to yourself. and I just see you fellow ADHDers fairly well with Gladys of Art.
Speaker: There. Especially Eddie. That's that. Yeah, yeah. Eddie 16 June the 17th. So, roughly. June 17th, 2026. and on june the seventeenth so play whenever you're ah june the seventeenth twenty
Speaker: There we go. All right. Lovely. I've got to carry on doing some jet washing now.
Speaker: Jet washing? OK. You know those jet washing machines with the yeah powered water? The driveway. I'm doing the area around the pool. OK. So, yeah. Nice.
Speaker: I like jet washing.
