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Episode 143 - ADHD & Being an Otrovert - When You're the Life of the Party But Still Feel Like an Outsider
40 Plays16 days ago
Ever feel like you're standing outside the group, looking in—even when you're right in the middle of it?
This week, Martin and Paul (your favorite ex-mayors of ADHDville) dive headfirst into the fascinating concept of Otrovertism—and let's just say, Paul's been walking around with a bucket labeled "Otrovert" full of himself for months now.
What happens when your ADHD brain craves connection but rejects the whole "groupthink" thing? Turns out, there's a name for that. Dr. Rami Kaminsky coined it in 2024, and honestly? It might just change how you see yourself.
Martin and Paul break down:
- Why being an "outsider" can actually be your secret superpower (unbiased perspective, anyone?)
- The five hidden strengths of ultraverts (spoiler: creative innovation + emotional resilience = 🔥)
- That awkward moment when you realize you could have won the team-building exercise just by going to the pub
- Why neurodivergent brains are basically built for this personality type
Plus, Martin shares a deeply personal dream about being part of a World War II tank crew (yes, really), and Paul gets honest about rejection sensitive dysphoria, shame, and why it took him 40 years to realize he was an ultravert all along.
Oh, and important news: ADHDville is taking a summer break until September! But don't worry—Martin will be dropping by with some summer specials to keep you company while Paul's off doing... Italian things in his speedos.
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Transcript
Welcome to ADHDville
00:00:00
Speaker
of Oh, back in the room. Back in the room. Donne's La Chambre. Donne's La Chambre, indeed, mon frère. ah So, ah let's go to a place where the distractions are landmarks and the detours are on the main road. So, welcome to ADHD, Will.
00:00:18
Speaker
No, here we go. Meet the game. The boys are here. Meet the game. Meet the game.
00:00:29
Speaker
The boys are here! Boys, two ends a day! You! Exclamation mark! Oh dear, wow! Hello, I'm Paul Thompson and I was diagnosed with a combined ADH and a D again dragging towards three million years ago.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, uno dos tres. Uno dos tres. Yeah, and I'm Martin Weston. I was officially diagnosed with the combined ADHD poopoo platter in 2013 and undiagnosed or autistic. And we are the mayors of ADHDville.
00:01:09
Speaker
Oh. The ex-mayors of ADHDville, I should say. um And we are hanging out at the King's Agitated Head pub in ADHDville where we're... We're sitting in the back, having a drink, taking care of business.
00:01:25
Speaker
Yes. This week's business, what is what is this speak's with this week's business, Martin? Let's tell our people. Right, because it's your subject this week, so you should do the honours, mate.
Introducing Outrovertism: A New Trait?
00:01:41
Speaker
It's O-Tro-Vertism. O-Tro-Vertism. How do you pronounce it? O-Tro-Vertism. Yeah. Which we'll explain in a second what that is. Right.
00:01:54
Speaker
And I suggest Martin, Martin, I it suggest Martin, that we go go to the coffee shop and talk about this stuff. Oh, introvertism. Right.
00:02:05
Speaker
Well, let's jump in the tractor, which I have cleaned and buffed and polished. Buffed? Yeah, buffed.
00:02:16
Speaker
I like a good buffing. Right. I do have a sort a handheld sort of buffing. Do you?
00:02:26
Speaker
Like a drill? Well, it has a big buffing pad on the end. Okay. and What do you buff? i Other than tractors?
00:02:38
Speaker
ah You can buff people. Is that some kind of um fetish? No, no. It's like some kind of like um ah physiotherapy tool.
00:02:54
Speaker
Like you can like to kind of like it just vibe vibrates your muscles in your entire system. Oh, okay. Got Does it work? Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:08
Speaker
kind does it work yeah um does that mean later Is that what Buffy the vampire is about? That's what she does. That is the entire show. She spends about 23 seasons going around buffing vampires.
00:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's niche. It is. All right. Well, let's let's get on to onto your niche subject. Yes. Ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultravertism, ultravertism.
00:03:41
Speaker
What's it all about, mate? What's it all about? i'm glad you asked, Martin. Well, in a in a single sentence, ultravertism is an emerging personality concept.
00:03:53
Speaker
describing socially capable empathetic individuals who naturally function as independent thinkers, Martin, and external, at the same time, external kind of outsiders, feeling no inherent need or desire to conform to or derive their identity from social groups and trends.
00:04:16
Speaker
Basically, basically what in an even shorter version there is a difference between introverted and extroverted you can be extroverted but not feel like you're part of the gang at the same time right you're not maybe into kind of like the group dynamic dynamic which by chance i fall into in a big way If there was a bucket with ultravertism written on the side, and it'd be like full of me.
00:04:50
Speaker
Full of you in a bucket. Full of in a bucket. Or would it, Marty? Would you be in a bucket as well? I don't know, because honestly, i haveve I've not had the brain capacity to do much in the way of of of research. But I will say that this, it's a it's it's a new personality. What I found out is that it's a new personality trait.
00:05:14
Speaker
which is car which is um been been coined by Dr. Rami Kaminsky. Yeah, um in 1925. So last year. So pretty recent.
00:05:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So it's not like scientific. it's It's not as well established as you would say, like an introvert or an exit often ex extrovert, which is like more like Carl Jung.
00:05:47
Speaker
This is kind of a a new a new ah interesting little personality type, which obviously speaks to you, Paul. So you were like, ooh, this sounds like me. this so I think it speaks to a lot of people because he he called he called his book on this subject, he called it The Gift of Not Belonging.
00:06:06
Speaker
The Gift of Not Belonging is because we, it literally just came to mind just now, you know there's a term people pleasing.
00:06:17
Speaker
Okay. yeah there's ah There's a positive element of not being a people pleaser. There's also ah a positive element to not being a group person because you don't feel like you have to conform to a group.
00:06:30
Speaker
Right. So let's say in the the classic way, um if you're part of a group of colleagues at work, Generally people, your colleagues, if they're not neurodiverse, they might feel the need to find some kind of um an agreement, even if that agreement was heavily tinged with a compromise.
00:06:57
Speaker
Right. Okay. Whereas neurotypical persons will feel less more well i feel more fearless about having their own opinions and sticking to them but potentially.
00:07:10
Speaker
So he calls it the gift of not belonging, which is a really nice provocation. Right. So, I mean, just going going back to the groups, as as far as I can work out, there are, this is just broad strokes, there are there are introverts, which, you know we normally associate with recharging alone But can feel deeply connected to a group.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yes. um There are extroverts who gain energy from from groups. Yes. And feel most themselves in a crowd.
00:07:46
Speaker
Yes. If you if you like. Yes. There are ambiverts which which switch between both of those modes, um all depending on context. And then there's the ultraverts, which as you say, which which remain which remain emotionally and psychologically separate regardless of the of the settings. that That's what you're saying. So it's like outside of a group, outside of whatever's going on.
00:08:17
Speaker
but so for So maybe for a neurotypical person, they might feel deep um discomfort with not aligning themselves within a group. Right, right, right.
00:08:29
Speaker
But that's not necessarily where the best ideas come from. Okay, and and ideas, it's like you don't have to be in the creative industry to be...
00:08:40
Speaker
you know An idea might be you know walking in a supermarket and coming up with ah a new ah new way of stacking shelves. It could be. Creativity it has many faces.
00:08:52
Speaker
yeah and Therefore, ideas should can come from anywhere. All right, so yo you I think what you're saying is, and you're you're probably coming at this from like a nu from an artist or a creator point point point of view, which which is there is ah and ah ah there's an an ah ah advantage being not feeling like or following whatever the boss is doing and you're kind of like on the outside looking in and and you have a different ah have have a different perspective, a different take. Right,
Group Dynamics: Introverts and Extroverts
00:09:25
Speaker
exactly. Just thinking outside the box. But not just, um you know, just putting into context with a kind of area that maybe isn't my particular expertise, but it could apply to um if you were a team of salesmen, okay,
00:09:43
Speaker
and you had to come up with some ideas about how to find new clients, you'd be useful to have someone that maybe wasn't necessarily, um you know, doesn't go into a crisis if they're not conforming to a group dynamic.
00:09:58
Speaker
why were i Right, right, right. and there lot A lot of group dynamics, therefore meetings, there you go, meetings. Most most meetings are about spreading information.
00:10:09
Speaker
potentially spreading, um, spreading out responsibility when the, when a project goes tits up, right? Yes. It's spreading out responsibility and really about actually being useful.
00:10:25
Speaker
Right, right, right. Yeah. No, I mean, like i've I've been in my fair share of a thousand oh a thousand meetings where where where you're all getting consent. You're all getting consent they im from each each other, from where you're going, so that actually... when I mean, like, you know, when things so succeed, okay, well, you all succeed, but then when you fail, all fail. So you're kind of like... You're very much in ah in this sort of weird group, and you never really kind of like...
00:11:03
Speaker
It isn't ever really all your fault and it isn't ever really all your success either. Right. Kind of being this little soup. Yeah. It's a bit like um a classic thing when um there are there are people out there who are experts at training, um executives, directors, people like that, you know, that kind of role in a company.
00:11:27
Speaker
And they always say when when these directors, they talk about success, they always talk in terms of me. Okay. Right. when When they talk about failure within a company, they talk about in terms of the team.
00:11:41
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Do you see I mean? Yeah. yeahp Yeah. So there's always that dynamic and people sniff it out. Also, you know, if you're neurodiverse like we are,
00:11:53
Speaker
You're sitting in those meetings and you can see that you're using your, or we are using our pattern recognition and thinking, so we don't actually need this meeting, do we? What if you do your work, Martin?
00:12:08
Speaker
ill do mar I'll do mine. She does her work and she does her work and he does his work. Actually, we don't need this meeting.
00:12:19
Speaker
you know And we just say, oh let's just trust everyone to do their job. more Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's gone. No. So, so, um, yeah, but it's interesting. I think one thing that came to mind when I first read about this, i think it was about four or five months ago that I came across it.
00:12:42
Speaker
Not literally. I just, it fell on my lap, um, electronically as it were digitally, this, this word. I tend to be sceptical about, you know, when someone says, oh, are you introverted or extroverted? o I'm always sceptical about mating making a polarised choice.
00:13:07
Speaker
Right. Because I flip-flop. I can be really extroverted and really introverted. us So you are more ambivert then? Were you between one and the other? I'm quite happily, it's um quite i can yes, generally, but I can quite happily not, especially post-diagnosis from ADHD, I'm more likely to be to accept being ultraverted.
00:13:36
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, so that one's... I'm more comfortable in my skin as you know what it exists now. It's weird because before the i think before the pan pandemic, probably, I would have had myself as an introvert. I would have said that I was an introvert. That's who I was.
00:13:57
Speaker
Yeah. But I've known you for 40 years. 40 years, man and boy? 40 years, man and boy. And I know that you can be extroverted as well. Right.
00:14:08
Speaker
I know the extroverted version of Martin. Right. seen him. I've fucking seen him. being being large and in charge you know what it's yeah because like that was the biggest revelation from me was like oh actually i am way more extrovert than i than i had previously yeah thought of my my my myself so You know, like, so, yeah, I, you know, that part of of me does enjoy kind of groups and doing things in a group.
00:14:47
Speaker
That would be my preferred mode would be me, group of friends. We'll go out, we do something, we're drinking, you know, drinking by the pool or whatever is, a you know.
00:14:59
Speaker
But at the same time, do you find safety in groups? You can be in a group, but do you find safety in it? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I can remember, this is something, I've i've never told anyone this, one I think.
00:15:12
Speaker
Not that it's kind like anything hidden. It's just weird. um I think when I was about, ooh, I had a dream. I had a dream.
00:15:23
Speaker
and And the dream was... i had a dream. It was World War II. Really? In, like, Africa or somewhere. course.
00:15:36
Speaker
Out in the, debt in the sort of you know, like, in the, in the, like, there's sand everywhere. um And... My granddad fought in the war as a teenager in Africa in know Yeah.
00:15:50
Speaker
Jesus. Yeah. So he did it. Wow. I just did it in my dream. least my dream. badivin um and i was i was part I was part of a tank tank crew, right? So there was like right me and, don't know, three or four other...
00:16:09
Speaker
guys and we were just like the the crew of this tank right and when i woke up i mean that's we didn't do anything i i that was just like kind of like just being plopped into this scenario of of me and a crew and a tank and i went oh man like there was such a sense of like bonded team really wholeruly purpose i was like that's what i want i want that feeling but i don't have to kind of go back to world war ii and get in a tank yeah and i get that but i really like yeah because because on a practical and economic level they could be quite tricky
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, if you buy a tank and, yeah, I mean. Which is not that difficult. I think it'd be surprisingly easy. It is surprisingly easy, but, man, those things must guzzle the gas, surely. Jesus Christ.
00:17:10
Speaker
um But, ah and there aren't, there isn't as much room in ah in a real tank as there was in my dream tank. I think in my dream tank, it was a lot larger and there were more people. was Did you have a big turret?
00:17:25
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah big turret lovely but there was that camera there was that camaraderie and that group feel like i woke up and went that's that's what i want i want that that's what i want did you ever get it yeah so like you know i've been in in in bands and all in line groups of friends like and that's you know like Yeah, that that's, you know, and even this podcast and the little community around it. Yeah. it It's the same thing. Well, it's interesting you say that because I think being ADHD and having the ADHD neurodiverse community is the first time I've ever felt really
00:18:11
Speaker
Well, there was a time, it was only about for 18 months max two years, um that I had a work environment that I felt part of a team. Right.
00:18:22
Speaker
And I thought at the time that there was, i for years I had the problem with when people talked about teamwork, I had a real problem with it.
00:18:33
Speaker
Because I think, um because it's partly true, that teamwork is a complete bag of shit.
00:18:40
Speaker
It's true, though. depends on the team, to be honest. Yeah, I've really seen a good example, positive example of teamwork. It's something that people talk about, but it's mostly bullshit.
00:18:55
Speaker
Honestly, mate, I've spent a lot of my entire career has been building teams. Right. And working in teamwork, like copywriter, I want the art director, I want the graphic yeah designer, um and I'll
Teamwork Challenges and Personality
00:19:13
Speaker
build a team. And ah it's when you get a really good team, it's fucking amazing.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, I've been – well, I was freelance a lot. which says a lot about me. spent probably half of my career freelance and half of it in an agency situation.
00:19:34
Speaker
and that So I had to the problem with not really having a bit of a problem being part of a team, Okay.
00:19:45
Speaker
And the other part of it kind of, um it it's it being kind of something that I desired at the same time. But I did once have the teamwork and i was responsible for the team at that point.
00:20:02
Speaker
Right. I ros was responsible for it. yeah Then the company, the agency, they changed the dynamic of the company. Okay. Right. And they pitched our team against another team internally to get, to increase the year, the kind of results to get growth.
00:20:22
Speaker
And it went really badly. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't, doesn't work. They made a massive mistake and I ended up leaving because of it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:34
Speaker
that They literally pitched one internal team against the other with the idea that, oh, this is a really good way of getting growth in the agency. if and it And it really backfired on them.
00:20:47
Speaker
but they They wouldn't admit that it backfired. they just changed it They just changed their ideas. um i've got I've got five hidden strengths of being an altrovert. Okay.
00:21:01
Speaker
and Yes, do that. ah One, you get unbiased per perspective. So, you know, yeah say you're an out outsider. This is what but i was saying earlier, yeah you know, that that that you are incredibly...
00:21:19
Speaker
objective but because you're not kind of part of that group thing. you're out youre you're ah your're You youre you're actually um have have a point of view that is out so out outside of the and the group thing.
00:21:32
Speaker
um So, yeah, all of that doesn't cloud your judgment, but which I think you would agree. Yeah, totally. And I think this is your ah other point, creative innovation. People who self-identify as outsiders may have more original ideas, uh, in, in, um, you know, when you're not bound by the group can, can, can, can be in the stuff around you Well, there are a lot of lone wolves in the, in, in our industry, in the creative industry, a lot of lone wolves who are like creatives, creative consultants, uh, they didn't work in a team environment, but they kicked ass as freelancers.
00:22:13
Speaker
And being low wolves, you know, you bring the, bring them in on specific special project projects. Often, there was a flip side to them. Often, they weren't always the easiest people to deal with, but you always knew that they would deliver.
00:22:28
Speaker
They come up with the goods. They come up with the goods. Right. Number three, emotional resilience. You don't need external validation to feel stable while others spiral. That's a good one.
00:22:42
Speaker
When excluded or criticized, you remain steady. Your sense of self isn't tied to the group acceptance. Low maintenance. Low Low maintenance. Right.
00:22:57
Speaker
And ah you were saying about um ah pattern recognition earlier. So yeah deep um deep um observation skills. You catch what others miss. Yes. Micro expressions, power dynamics, unspoing unspoken tensions. It's all visible because you're kind of you know you're you're not so swayed by what is going on.
00:23:20
Speaker
But there was also an element of of shaming that as well because I remember... but I think, i not sure if I've told you this story. Well, I've told to you this story. I'm not sure ive mentioned it on the on the podcast before. But I remember once we were sent on all the management of the agency. We were sent on um a team building course. Oh, God, hate those.
00:23:44
Speaker
Oh, it was nightmare. It was a nightmare. And it was a kind of, um ah what do they call it? and like a treasure hunt orienteering thing and we're split up into four groups it was a nightmare and right in the beginning right in the beginning i don't why it suddenly came out with a west country accent like that right i don't why that happened anyway we'll point to groups okay and then they briefed us
00:24:17
Speaker
on what was going to how the weekend was going to pan out, how we would make points, how we would lose points as a group, okay and um you know how they were going to might kind of conclude conclude at the end of the weekend.
00:24:33
Speaker
So as they were talking, this is where my um autistic brain kicked in, they were talking and going through the rules, how we're going to make points and lose points.
00:24:46
Speaker
And it came to me instinctively, holy shit. So if we just go to the pub, okay, when this is finished, they're giving their brief, I'm going to go to my group and say, guys, I've worked it out. If we don't do anything, we just go down to the pub and wait for everyone to do what they want to do and get exhausted and tired.
00:25:10
Speaker
hu maybe be even a dirty, fall in a ditch. Whatever. We just go to the pub and chill out. We are most likely going to win. so So what did I do? I've chickened out.
00:25:25
Speaker
right i we I just did what everyone else did. And then at the end of it, they said, ha ha, I bet no one realized that if you'd just gone down the pub and did nothing at all, you would have won.
00:25:38
Speaker
I put my hand up. Right. And I said, I understood that. And if everyone one looked at me. I felt like a piece of shit. Because everyone looked at me like, you bullshitter, Paul.
00:25:53
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I could feel it. They were like drilling their eyes into my head. Right. They thought I was just bullshitting.
00:26:04
Speaker
Mm-hmm. You know. And it's like, no, I really did think that. yeah i just didn't have the courage to say it yeah now post diagnosis of adhd and self-diagnosed autistic i would have said it all right definitely which is a big thing so it's a nice conclusion to reach you know you know to to talking about it now Yeah.
00:26:35
Speaker
And then the fifth hidden strength of being an altiver is authentic relationships.
Authentic Relationships for Outroverts
00:26:42
Speaker
when you When you do connect with someone, it's real. You you don't do so superficial friendships or performative relationships. Every connection you maintain has passed your high bar for authentic authenticity.
00:26:54
Speaker
Yes. So what it talks here about um empathy. huh So this kind of goes with this last point that you are making. you know There's a lot of people that know nothing, nothing about neurodiversity. think, they could could speak oh, neurodiverse people is basically Asperger's.
00:27:18
Speaker
So what does Asperger's mean? Asperger's means people that don't have empathy. It's total bullshit. Right. It's absolute nonsense.
00:27:29
Speaker
That's why i think, as we talked about, i think last week, neurodiversity is going to splinter off into like 20 different names. I hope one day. It'll reshuffle.
00:27:41
Speaker
It'll reshuffle, reconfigurate. m Probably will. Turn back to factory settings.
00:27:52
Speaker
Exactly. so okay, that's interesting. So um I've got here... i do you got what else you got? I've got here about hyperfocus as well.
00:28:03
Speaker
Go on. um So an ADHD brain can be driven by interest rather than importance. When forced into rigid collective structures,
00:28:16
Speaker
like a traditional classroom or a corporate hierarchy. An ADHD tends to ignore mundane tasks in favour of their intense hyperfixations that can make them exclude classic,
00:28:33
Speaker
um um which can make them look like classic ultraverts who reject group expectations. Right.
00:28:44
Speaker
ah Interesting, isn't it? In it. In it. In it. yeah Yeah. Yeah. I would ah would would say that I i don't – I do tend to be more of a – either an ambivert an extrovert. I don't tend to identify –
00:29:07
Speaker
as strongly as as you with Outrovert, I will form a group, join a group, be in a group, ya and then if the group wants to do this, then I'll go, okay, fine, all right, well, I'm just going to go go with with that. You know, like, if, if I mean, like, yeah if it's like, yeah, sure, all right, fine, you know, I have have have no strong opinions, and I will i will generally...
00:29:36
Speaker
bubble on. But I mean, the I would say that I do tend to pick my group people. So I'm already, so even when i'm talking about groups, I'm done talking about groups of people that I really like and that I really um have the same mindset.
00:29:56
Speaker
Yeah. like Like you, so you're in that group. so So even though I'll say, well, I'll go along with groupthink, there They're all they people that I have curated, you like.
00:30:10
Speaker
Yes, massively. Yeah, oh massively. Yeah, um um mostly, I suspect, subconsciously grouped.
00:30:23
Speaker
Yes. You know, it's like you've been, um what's what's the term mean in kind of cowboy um kind of wild west? Hustling, hustling, hustling, herding.
00:30:37
Speaker
but um Rounded up. Rounded up. Yeah. Harangued.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah. In some way, you know, you've developed a kind of, a kind of, you know, a community. Yeah.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah. Which is exactly what ADHD means. And I suspect part of that community is that you don't always have the same opinions. And that that's okay.
00:31:08
Speaker
Yes. That you can have opposing opinions and have a right old laugh about it. Right old laugh. Yes. Do you know what mean? It's like, oh, I could trust you.
00:31:22
Speaker
um to trust me to have different opinions, but explore it anyway without any problems, ah but without the risk of getting into arguments. Does that make sense?
00:31:32
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because, you know, like when when you're in the creative field, and you will often, as I have – many bazillion times sat in a little room with ideas that are pinned up to the wall right and there's you and a bunch of other people and you're trying to pick the ideas that you want to move forward with and then yeah and then you know everyone has a different different point of view
00:32:03
Speaker
Yes. And you're all in that room and you're all hashing it out. And yes, it it is okay to not not agree with the the group as long as you, you know, you all, you know, you'll come out of that room kind of going, okay, right. Well, and we know what we're doing. We're doing the direction.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, mean, how many meets how many brainstorming meetings have you been in where um you were you had, well this is quite niche, I realise this might be very specifically my personal experience, where the boss of an agency was such a narcissist that a brainstorming wasn't a brainstorming at all, it was basically everyone agreeing to what the boss thought was a good idea because they were scared of losing their job.
00:32:56
Speaker
ah Everyone just stay agreed with the boss. The boss said, I've got an idea, let's um let's just use emojis as the campaign. Right. ah Which is I'm not joking, that's actually often what she would say. Let's use emojis.
00:33:12
Speaker
And I was sitting there thinking, you bunch of wankers. is This is all because you haven't got the courage... to to actually go against what the boss thought was a good idea, and no one was encouraged to come up with their own ideas, except moi, who would say, no, I don't think that works, right and this is why I don't think it works, and this is my alternative idea, what do you think?
00:33:41
Speaker
Right. Honestly, i don't think I've ever been in situations like that because generally you get to a point where everyone has a little bit of an ego. There is a little bit an ADHD like, yeah, I'm going to fucking rebel this. I've got a great idea. I'm going to punch it home. um So, you i ah yeah,
00:34:08
Speaker
it's generally – I've generally had the opposite problem, which is there are too many people with ideas. Right. And it's trying to – and they're all fighting for them.
00:34:21
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And you have to kind of like – sort through them all and have a rationale as to why this idea is better than that idea. And so everyone's like, okay, fine. All right, let's pick an idea. Right.
00:34:36
Speaker
But have you ever been in ah an agency situation when um they didn't really know what a good idea was? And some of the best ideas were not really considered, because not because it wasn't the right ideas, because they they just didn't know how to to take it forward.
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, ah yeah, I've been in plenty. day Yeah, because like when you have like a younger team in you and the creative director and the young team and they're presenting you ideas. Yeah. And they're throwing stuff up on the on the wall.
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. mean, you can go, right, well, yeah, i I can see that there's a diamond in this idea that you haven't quite seen, but but I can see it. Diamond in the rough.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah, you know plenty yeah, yeah. yeah this yeah I mean, that's what most of my day was. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool.
00:35:34
Speaker
yeah right I've got, though, yeah and I'm going to lead into this argument. No, I'm going to lead out of this argument with a with a dream. Like you were talking about dreams before.
00:35:46
Speaker
A dream. it Was there a dream? rejected sensitive dy so dysphoria, RSD. Yeah? There can be a sense of shame in not being part of a group, which I did experience, to the point where I had a dream of which you were in the dream once, where I was waiting for a bus and getting into a Whist Curry accent again without any motive.
00:36:12
Speaker
right yeah they i was waiting for bus and then this big old double-decker bus came along i got on it didn't yeah and all of my friends were on it having a party including you having great time having i didn't get invited did i didn't get invited it what the fuck if we get I mean, you're here now.
00:36:38
Speaker
i mean, wow i mean we so we we so we we stopped for you. Yeah, exactly. That's so nice of you. every You could have just kept going.
00:36:51
Speaker
Oh, there's Paul. Hello, Paul. see stay you see See, there you go. See, in the dream, yeah we stopped for you and you got on.
00:37:02
Speaker
yeah right How much worse would the dream have been if you were standing there by the side road and then the bus just went past you you went, hang on a second. What? Everyone having a wild time hanging out the windows.
00:37:15
Speaker
Yeah, going, hey, Paul, hey, bye. And you're like, what the fuck? Ortiz on the te top deck. Oh yes, mate. Yep, yep, yep. Don't know why that came to mind.
00:37:28
Speaker
Anyway, let's pass. We'll let that pass by. Why not? Why not? um but should Should we go to the takeaway? Yeah, let's go to the takeaway.
Outrovertism and ADHD: A New Perspective
00:37:40
Speaker
Takeaway I've got here is, while mainstream psychologically psychology views autrovertism as a freshly proposed personality archetype for a specific way of mode moving through the communal world. Many in the ADHD world see it as an eloquent description of what actually feels, what it feels like to navigate life with a neurodivergent brain, especially those who feel they are highly verbal, socially engaged and undiagnosed.
00:38:15
Speaker
Right, because if if you have that, if you say that all the neurotypical people are in one group, right, yeah and that and that's the group, and you sit outside of that, and you feel like you're outside of that, then yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that makes sense. I i i jive with that.
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah, but it but it says here, especially if you're undiagnosed, because i remember before I was diagnosed, I think, well, Do I fit in with the ADHD label? Because I've got this and I've got that and sometimes I'm really sociable.
00:38:50
Speaker
and And I'm now undiagnosed autistic, right? Yeah. And I, again, um there are many things that don't fit and there's a bunch of things that do.
00:39:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. lot of stuff, a lot. So i don't I don't fit into a neat definition of either ADHD or autism, but how clearly both.
00:39:16
Speaker
Yeah, well minute I don't think anyone really follow falls into really neat. Right, that's the point, isn't it? all which So it's good that this bloke, what's his name, Martin? Remind me. This bloke. I've clicked off the tab now. I've got it, I've got it, I've got it. Dr. Rami Kaminsky last year.
00:39:37
Speaker
Okay, it's good, it gives me heart, it gives me heart, and I'm really glad that there there are people out there that they are actually exploring, um alternative ideas. That's good.
00:39:49
Speaker
That's good. Yeah. Let's keep moving forward. All right. So shall we rate it? Shall we rate it? Let's have an attempt. This is, oh, this is fun.
00:40:01
Speaker
All right. Oh, blimey. a Here we go. So we're wild open here while while you're thinking, here come the banjos. Oh.
00:40:15
Speaker
Yeah. Nice. Autorism. Is it a dopamine hit? Yeah. Is it a dopamine hit knowing that you't exist that it exists? It is a big one. for me, it is.
00:40:28
Speaker
It's a big one. I wrote it quite high because I'm really glad, as I just said, that people are looking at, you know, oh, you're not black and you're not white. I like that. That's good.
00:40:40
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah. it makes me feel happy. Right, that that there's other options. And people that are potentially undiagnosed because of that, because, oh, I don't fit into a clean, nice, clean definition.
00:40:55
Speaker
it's like, oh, but there's this other guy that says that I don't have to be, you know, fit into a nice, clean, clean definition. So I might go for a diagnosis. That's good, isn't it?
00:41:06
Speaker
That is good. yeah Yeah. going to give it around 9.2 and a half. Oh, very, very high. I'm going to give it a... from Personally, I think I'll give myself an 8.
00:41:17
Speaker
eight So, yeah, i think I think it's a good thing. It is definitely... yeah like The more... that's it As you say, the more we look at ourselves and our behaviors and who we are, and yeah you know the better understanding that we have of ourselves. and those yeah Yeah, and the more we accept ourselves as an open church, hu you know, an open church, is that the expression?
00:41:46
Speaker
I have no idea, mate, but I know what you mean. A broad church. A broad church. A broad church that ah welcomes anyone, you know even if you don't fit into a nice clean definition.
00:41:59
Speaker
Yeah. right yeah That would be a church that thats abroad that that is abroad somewhere. So maybe Spain France. Or in Asia, that's really abroad.
00:42:11
Speaker
Somewhere on the continent. Yeah. Right. Okay. Burnout. What's your burnout score, Martin? I mean, what? um I mean, if I'm applying the same criteria, i.e., does it, do I get sapped by having this understanding or this other way of being? I mean, no, I think i think it's generally but good thing, right?
00:42:38
Speaker
I mean, yes. oh There are downsides to altruism, you know, um yeah alsotra is you know like because of for things like if you if you never really feel like you're in a group or don't want to be in a group, the world is full of groups.
00:42:58
Speaker
Right. Yes. So that kind of like always puts you on the, on the outside of everything, which is not always, a which is not always a good place to be. it can feel lonely. You can be. liberating. Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:16
Speaker
so For some people it can be really liberating, therefore they've been fighting against that concept, especially if you're really, really late diagnosed like us. right um even like much People diagnosed in their 80s, they've always felt some kind of level of guilt that they weren't um um part of it, that they didn't really fit in into a team or to community.
00:43:41
Speaker
the li the liberation, you know, to like give themselves a break finally of being okay with being introverted. Yeah.
00:43:52
Speaker
I think one of the other downsides would be that you're, career or your job opportunities are restricted or less. Yes.
00:44:03
Speaker
because Because having that thing of like that that tribalism or that kind of like being in a group and like being in a group is a is that there's a lot of that out in the world, like you know yeah corporate culture and i mean all kinds of workplace in in environments. They're all these groups and bubbles. like I work better as a freelancer.
00:44:27
Speaker
Right. Because you know if i i often went if i was I used to work with a freelance agency in London, and they would give me like a two-week contract, and I'd end up staying there for six months.
00:44:41
Speaker
because because i'm I'm good at my job, right? And they they wanted me to stay on. But that's when, after six months, um the kind of politics would creep in and the gossip, and you'd get like sucked into it.
00:44:59
Speaker
And then you'd say, ciao, I'm going. Ciao, Bye. I'm going now. Thank you very much. Right. Yeah. Nice.
00:45:10
Speaker
Nice. All right. So burnout score, I mean, like, you know, yeah. I mean, I'm going to give it like a 3.1. I'm going to match you.
00:45:20
Speaker
one i'm gonna ah gonna match you All right. Exactly. 3.1. Yeah. Wow. Brilliant. There we go. All right. So I think the general thing that comes out of that is that it is better to kind of have a better understanding of your yourself generally.
00:45:39
Speaker
that's just you know Potentially liberating. Right. All right, well, let's ah jump in the tractor and we'll make our way over to Alexander's Haunted Inn.
00:45:50
Speaker
Yeah. Get back in. Oh, there we go. Starts like a charm. Freshly buffed. You can almost sound, the sound almost sounds freshly buffed. Yeah, you can really hear the shine right in that four-stroke engine.
00:46:11
Speaker
Right. it's almost The shine is almost deafening. Mm-hmm. Right. I like that. I like that. That sounds like a a David Bowie lyric.
00:46:23
Speaker
Right. shine was almost deafening. Anyway, this is the bit of the podcast where I say that your part that your podcast, no, that your feedback is vital to us.
00:46:37
Speaker
and we read out we read all all of your comments we do we do we do and we might read out some of your comments on our future podcast like this one that martin's going to tell you about oh am i all right uh yes so uh uh alexander's left a left a note um so about last last week's episode which was about about summer vacations yes Oh, boy. She says, here, Paul is the is is the same. Hang on.
00:47:12
Speaker
No, she said, here, Paul, is the same. way Here, Paul, in Greece. She lives in Greece. It's the same. They have long summer holidays from June to almost mid-September.
00:47:23
Speaker
And for her, it was like her time to recharge as a fellow ADHD. And then she makes a really good point here, Martin, yeah about the fact that that awful moment like, oh, when it gets towards the end of the summer, maybe you're coming back from holiday,
00:47:43
Speaker
That's when you start thinking, oh, I've got to go back to fitting in again to being neurotypical. Oh, yeah. Or go back to school. Starting school again.
00:47:56
Speaker
man. I've got to fit in
00:48:00
Speaker
Well, you know what? There was something exciting about the first day back because because you kind of got to see your friends again. But it soon got, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you just lost that fun of that first day. After about half a day, was gone. You're like, God, here we go. Homework. They started giving you homeworks, stuff like that. Right, right. Okay.
00:48:27
Speaker
um She used to spend time with ah her grandparents, apparently. And yeah starting school for Alexandria was always a nightmare.
00:48:38
Speaker
Then she talks about cruises. She didn't like cruises. But she likes the idea of sailing, which is a nice, ah it's a nice interesting point. about If you're neurodiverse, sailing is a great way of detaching your mind.
00:48:53
Speaker
Well, yeah, cause you you know because you clearly do certain things. Yeah, you have to really focus on the wind and the sails. The wind. Right, and all of that. i used to sail.
00:49:05
Speaker
Did you? but Yeah, i mean yeah. Sail away, sail away. Sail away. um kissy ah I mean, like, i was in this I was in the Sea Scouts, so you like Cubs and Scouts. i I was in the Sea Scouts, so weird' we're talking about being in in groups. i was That was one of the groups that I was – Oh, right.
00:49:27
Speaker
i was in the Cubs. Right. And as we were in the Sea Scouts, we had um we did a lot of sailing and canoeing and that kind of water-based activities.
00:49:39
Speaker
Yeah. No, I was in the Cubs, but I got thrown out of the Cubs. Oh, what, for drugs? No, because they said, Paul, you only come when there's a buffet. Come on.
00:49:52
Speaker
Really, though?
00:49:55
Speaker
Really? I had the widow's free food.
00:49:59
Speaker
And they cottoned onto it. Oh, man. Yeah. You were barred. Did just come for this for the... Of the Cub Scouts. Oh, that's amazing. I love that.
00:50:15
Speaker
um All right. All right. So, ah all right. ah Do we have time for ah for a quiz? Or not? Yeah. with Oh. Oh, no, we've we've used up quite a lot time. Maybe not.
00:50:29
Speaker
All right. Maybe not. All right. Maybe not. We will skip the quiz. So ah just to remind ourselves that, yeah, it's currently six apiece, and we'll pick that up.
00:50:42
Speaker
that safe Well, we're going to pick it up um in um because I'm having a break. I'm having a pause. Right.
00:50:53
Speaker
So this is so this is this this this is the big news, which is ADHDville, as it currently is, is going to take a break. Yes. Until next, ah until the beginning of
Podcast Break Announcement
00:51:06
Speaker
September. Yeah. um While Paul goes and puts his speedos on and.
00:51:12
Speaker
Yeah. A mankini. Yeah. And does Italian things. I've not had a break from doing an ADHD podcast for three years.
00:51:24
Speaker
but ah But also coincides with my diagnosis. So, you know, just, you know, a little break from thinking about ADHD. Yeah. Right. So that there will be no regular ADHD rule podcast um until beginning September. But fear not, I will attempt to do a a little fill-in, half an hour, summer special, every week, just to kind of like, just going to keep us, just to keep us like ticking along. Right.
00:51:56
Speaker
Okay. Until Paul comes back. Now, my my thought is, is I will read bits out from the ADHD-ville Gazette newspaper. Oh, nice.
00:52:10
Speaker
It's a bit like the proverbial storage of jam. Every now and again, you go into the pantry and turn the jams over. Right. Well, actually I do that with them with peanut but butter.
00:52:24
Speaker
Oh, you make your own peanut butter? No, no, no, no, because the the the peanut butter that we buy is like a natural, more natural one. So you end up with this oil that sits on the top. So so but basically I buy it and you turn it up upside down. Okay. And it sits like that for like a week or two. And you keep turning it around upside down. Okay. And then the oil mixes in. All right, okay. Eventually.
00:52:51
Speaker
I mean, it's takes it takes a few months. Yeah, clearly. Okay, cool. Anyway, so, yeah, so if you want your regular dose of Paul, he um you can you can you can skip the next two months and then just rejoin us back in se September. Alternatively.
00:53:13
Speaker
You can keep me company ah while i want while I just, ah well I don't know, somehow. Turn the jams over. Turn the jams over or the peanut butter.
00:53:24
Speaker
Right, just ah just ah muck my way through the the next couple of weeks. Okay. With some random shit.
00:53:36
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Random sounds good. I know, I know. It's just it's a choice. It is. It is. All right. So until ah the end of September, no, until the beginning of set September, that'll be it it from Paul and I as in our regular scheduled podcast.
00:54:01
Speaker
But it will remain so that ADHDville will be delivered fresh every Tuesday to all providers of fine podcasts. Please subscribe to the pod. and rate us most introverted, extroverted, octroverted, and anywhere in between. Perverted.
00:54:22
Speaker
come come ah can't believe that that that I only just thought of that right right at the end. That's good, mate. yeah that That means that it it was instinctive.
00:54:33
Speaker
It was. It's even better. ah Right, and you can feel free to correspond at will in the comments, but wait, there's more if you wish to see our beautiful, beautiful faces.
Connect with ADHDville
00:54:41
Speaker
Hello. Then you you can sally forth to the YouTubes and the TikToks, and you can also pick up a quill and email us at adhdville at gmail.com. But in the meantime, fucking kind to yourself.
00:54:54
Speaker
And I say to you beseech, i beseech you fellow ADHDers, fare thee well with gladness of heart. There, says the mayor. That's that.
00:55:05
Speaker
Oh, wow. we just made we' just made it right to the end. Oh, look at that. Okay. We almost had time for the quiz, but never mind. I'll save it for this December. but No, September. Right, right, right. It was a good quiz as well. it was an interesting one.
00:55:21
Speaker
Okay. Well, no it's kind of leaving it at 6-0, the quiz. It's kind of leaving it, you know. cliffhanger. cliffhanger mm-hmm cleveland right all right well uh i will uh i'll see you again mate seeing you again in a couple of months in couple of have a have a good have a good summer yeah i will i will actually i'll catch up uh then lovely okay ciao for now